WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 217 0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:03.120 Cool media. 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:05.720 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:09.400 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:12.680 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.480 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:19.040 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:21.000 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:22.759 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:24.960 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:31.040 Hello everyone, and welcome to it could happen here. My 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:33.760 name is Dan al Kurd. I'm a professor of political 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:38.480 science and a researcher of Arab and Palestinian politics. Since 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:41.680 I last recorded an episode, those in power have been 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:47.320 very busy. The world looks different from a month ago. 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:50.800 What would the assault on Minneapolis, the kidnapping of Venezuelan 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:55.600 President Maduro, the as of this recording, possible invasion of Greenland. 0:00:56.160 --> 0:00:58.080 It's been hard for even the best of us to 0:00:58.160 --> 0:01:01.120 keep up as nemic from the series. And Or would 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:05.600 say the pace of repression outstrips our ability to understand it. 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:09.440 And that is the real trick of the imperial thought machine. 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:13.720 It's easier to hide behind forty atrocities than a single incident. 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:16.720 I will never not squeeze in an end or reference 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:19.480 when I can, given that this is the state of 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:23.600 the world. What's happening in Palestine has largely slipped out 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:27.640 of most people's feeds and certainly the media headlines. But 0:01:27.959 --> 0:01:31.119 lots is happening, Lots of dangerous things are happening, and 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:33.000 I'm going to take this episode to give an update 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:36.480 of about what's been going on. Since the ceasefire was 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:40.160 announced three months ago, four hundred and forty nine Palestinians 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:43.360 have been killed by Israeli attacks and another one thousand, 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:46.520 two hundred and forty six have been injured. Over one 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:50.480 hundred of those killed were children. According to YUNISEF, the 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:54.080 Gaza strip has been reduced even further with a new 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:58.320 quote yellow line demarcating where Israeli troops will remain and 0:01:58.360 --> 0:02:02.800 where Palestinians are not allowed to go. They literally placed 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:06.520 concrete yellow blocks on the ground in Gaza, and as 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:09.880 the BBC notes from a report January sixteenth of this year, 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:13.560 Israel continues to push the yellow line further and further 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:17.600 into what remains of Gaza. The United Nations Office for 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:22.280 the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs notes quote, the Israeli military 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:25.320 remains deployed in over fifty percent of the Gaza strip 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:30.400 beyond the yellow line, where access to humanitarian facilities and assets, 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:35.880 public infrastructure, and agricultural land are either restricted or prohibited. 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:42.280 In this context, and despite this context, the Trump administration 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:45.720 has declared that Phase one of the ceasefire agreement is 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:48.560 now over and that Phase two will commence. 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:51.800 The US has announced the launch of the second phase 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:55.400 of the Gaza ceasefire Agreement. Special Envoys Steve Whitcoff shared 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:58.640 the news in a social media post, writing that Phase 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:03.440 two establishes a t transitional, technocratic Palestinian administration in Gaza, 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:07.200 the National Committee for the Administration of Gaza. He also 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:11.959 wrote that it begins the full demilitarization and reconstruction of Gaza, 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:16.640 primarily the disarmament of all unauthorized personnel. Whitkoff says the 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:20.639 US expects AMASS to comply fully with its obligations, including 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:24.120 the immediate return of the final deceased hostage, and warns 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:26.959 that the failure to do so will bring serious consequences. 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:31.799 Now, this is the declaration, even though really aside from 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:34.760 the return of Israeli hostages. No part of the twenty 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:37.920 point plan that the Trump administration put forward as the 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:42.200 quote peace Plan was realized. On the ground, it is 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:44.440 being let in, but not at the levels that it's needed. 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:50.280 Attacks against Pastinians haven't stopped. Nonetheless, Phase two is apparently 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:54.760 starting with the naming of members of the Board of Peace. Now, 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:58.480 if listeners will recall from a previous episode, Trump declared 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:00.760 himself the chair of this Board of Peace that's supposed 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:03.320 to bring peace to the Middle East, and Tony Blair 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:05.960 was tapped to run it, much to the outrage of 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:10.640 anyone who witnessed Blair's cooperation and the destruction of Iraq. Now, 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:12.400 this Board of Piece is going to run the Gaza 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:16.680 strip and it's quote unquote technocratic government, and it's going 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:20.400 to make sure how Masty militarizes and that Palestinians don't 0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:23.560 step out of line. The Board of Peace is one 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:28.720 aspect of the Great Plan, Great Standing for Gaza Reconstitution, 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:33.680 Economic Acceleration and Transformation Plan, a plan that apparently will 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:37.920 turn Gaza into the quote riviera of the Middle East. 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:41.680 The Huffington Post reported January seventeenth that Trump is setting 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:44.760 a billion dollar price tag for any country that wants 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:48.680 to participate on this board. Members so far include Tony Blair, 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:53.080 Secretary of State, Marco Rubio son in law, Jared Kushner, 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:57.400 US Special Envoy to the Middle East, Steve Witkoff, Mark Rowan, 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:01.800 the CEO of Apollo Global Management, Israeli billionaire Yakir Gabay, 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:06.520 and a number of others along the same vein. Among 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:11.360 those Trump has invited include Vladimir Putin, famously very interested 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:14.120 in peace and not at all in eradicating Ukrainian existence. 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:17.800 Trump also sent a letter to Victor Orban, far right 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:19.919 wing president of Hungary, to join the Board of Peace. 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:25.039 Orbon has apparently accepted this invitation. To remind listeners, Orbon 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:30.000 is one of Trump's models for authoritary takeover of democratic institutions. 0:05:30.680 --> 0:05:34.200 Orbon is also very close ties with Prime Minister Nittanyahu 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:39.400 in Israel, despite his anti Semitic politics. Now, I thought 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:41.800 the letter he sent to Orbon and to every other 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:46.480 right wing politician he's been inviting was quite telling. In 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:49.880 the letter, Trump invites Orbon to join, presumably with the 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:52.839 billion dollar pay to play, and calls the Board of 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:56.920 Peace a quote bold new approach to resolving global conflict. 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:02.120 Reuter is reporting on this issue, an anonymous diplomat saying 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:06.120 it's a trump United Nations that ignores the fundamentals of 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:09.200 the UN charter. In fact, the charter of the Board 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:13.720 of Peace doesn't even mention Gaza. So what is this 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:17.719 bold new approach to resolving global conflict. It's apparently a 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:22.240 resolution to conflict that includes a neocolonial oversight board run 0:06:22.279 --> 0:06:25.840 by white men to make sure the natives don't get 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:31.040 too excited. Now, this oversight board is intended to manage conflict, 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:34.960 because let's be clear, this isn't about solving conflict at 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:36.880 the expense of the people who have been facing the 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:40.560 brunt of this conflict. So we should take them at 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:42.760 their word that this is going to be the way 0:06:42.800 --> 0:06:45.800 that global conflict is going to be resolved from now on. 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:49.919 This is the blueprint. Gaza is only the test case, 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:54.920 and in this new form of authoritarian conflict management, the 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:59.200 world will operate without any pretensions under the premise of 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:04.159 might is right. And if the Gaza Reconstitution, Economic Acceleration 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:07.920 and Transformation Plan is any indication, this plan is predicated 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:12.040 on encouraging Palestinians to ultimately leave Gaza at least some 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:15.920 significant segment of them. So not only might is right, 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:18.680 but ethnic cleansing is a more than fine way to 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:22.080 resolve a dispute. And finally, the plan is predicated on 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:27.640 the idea that reconstruction is a business opportunity, so to review, 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:32.040 might is right, ethnic cleansing is AOK, and war is 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:46.080 a prime real estate development opportunity. Now things get even 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:48.360 worse when we bring in the guy who's been tapped 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:51.720 to be the director general of this board. Nikolay Maladanov 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:56.000 is a Bulgarian politician an x UN envoy who has 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:59.360 been tasked with quote, disarming Gaza. According to a report 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:02.640 by Al Jazur published January fifteenth, he's the guy who's 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:05.560 going to oversee the National Committee for the Administration of Gaza, 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:09.160 the technocratic government, which is run by a Postinian bureaucrats, 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:11.480 and make sure that they stay in line during the 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:16.360 reconstruction phase. Somehow, these bureaucrats are supposed to reconstruct Gaza 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:20.120 while not being able to operate in most of it anyway. 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:23.640 Mad enough, this guy is really something. He's a Bulgarian 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:26.560 diplomat that worked as a minister for one of the 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:30.120 most corrupt governments in Bulgaria, a government that faced mass 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:33.720 protest pretty persistently. He is part of a right wing 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:37.920 populist party in Bulgaria. His father was also involved in politics, 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:42.320 specifically in the Bulgarian Virgin of the Kgib before the 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:46.120 transition from the communist regime. Since twenty twenty one, he's 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:50.400 been working in an Amarati institution, the Unwar Gagaesh Diplomatic Academy, 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:53.360 where he came out as a quote vocal proponent of 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:57.320 the Abrahamic courts, the normalization agreements between Israel and several 0:08:57.360 --> 0:09:00.520 Arab states. Now it all checks out on that this 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:02.240 is the guy who's going to be the director general. 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:05.280 The fact that this person is the one being chosen 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:07.440 for phase two of the ceasefire, and the fact that 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:10.640 he has this kind of political background should make clear 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:12.800 that the Plant for Gaza isn't just a blueprint for 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:16.960 the world new levels of authoritarian conflict management with no pretense, 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:20.720 but also a part and parcel of the US Israeli 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:24.480 Imrati vision for the region. Now, this vision is one 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:28.720 where Arab authoritarian regimes and Israel, with the US supporting, 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:34.000 remake the Middle East into a quote modern, developed tolerant 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:39.000 Middle East, essentially by pouring concrete over graves and building 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:41.959 mega cities on top of rubble. Their vision of the 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:46.600 Middle East is one that is authoritarian and contained. More 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:50.720 citizens are subjects. These subjects can have some social freedoms 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:55.200 and maybe some economic opportunities, but should never think that 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:58.160 they can have an opinion on anything that happens to them. 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:00.400 This is a vision where states like the UA the 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:03.960 United Arab Emirates can arm militias to conduct ethnic cleansing 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:07.600 in Sudan, and Israel can get away with ethnic cleansing 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:11.680 in Palestine because ethnic cleansing and genocide are apparently a 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:16.920 perfectly reasonable way of getting rid of undesirables. Now, I'm 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:19.840 not saying that this isn't how these states operated even 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:22.880 before the genocide in Gaza, and I'm not saying it 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:25.600 wasn't how the US allowed certain allies to operate even 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:28.440 before Trump. Perhaps the writing was on the wall when 0:10:28.520 --> 0:10:32.480 Palestinians were indefinitely occupied and no one cared, or when 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:35.679 Artzach was ethnically cleansed and Azerbaijan got away with it. 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:39.240 President Biden gave his blessing to the destruction of Gaza 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:42.920 after October seventh. After all, but there used to be 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:47.200 a pretense, a pretense of international law and a quote 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:50.840 liberal international order. There also used to be variation on 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:54.120 these issues. This type of authority and conflict management wasn't 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:58.040 always tolerated. In fact, Arab liberals who advocated for democracy 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:00.800 would often say that the US this is different from 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:04.280 China or Russia in that, at least it was committed 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:09.560 to democracy and international law and human rights rhetorically, even 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:13.120 if there was hypocrisy. They thought that that space between 0:11:13.120 --> 0:11:17.760 reality and rhetoric could be leveraged and exploited. But now 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:21.680 there's nothing to be leveraged. Authoritarian conflict management is the 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:25.720 motors separandee of powerful states, and according to Donald Trump's 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:29.840 new doctrine, the Don Rohde Doctrine, each powerful state gets 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:32.280 to do what it wants in its own sphere of influence. 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:37.760 In fact, not only is territorial aggression valid, it's actually 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:40.920 the way the world should work. According to all of 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:45.679 Trump's spokespeople and parts of his administration, conquest is totally fine. 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:48.439 Here's Stephen Miller on Greenland, for example. 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:53.679 Under every understanding of law that has existed about territorial 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:57.520 control for five hundred years. To control a territory, you 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:00.480 have to be able to defend a territory, prove a 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:05.000 territory inhabit a territory. Denmark has feeled that every single 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:06.000 one of these tasks. 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:09.839 So Gaza is indeed the blueprint for what happens to 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:12.679 weaker states in war, or what happens in this case 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:17.240 to stateless people deemed undesirable and expendable. Now, what are 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:20.959 the Palestinians saying about all this? The technocratic government made 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:24.200 up of Palestinian bureaucrats, is saying it's committed to a 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:28.240 reconstruction of Gaza that is rooted in quote, peace, democracy 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:33.359 and justice. The Palestinian Authority, the largely illegitimate and undemocratic 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:38.080 governance body that apparently governs the West Bank somehow and 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:42.960 represents Palestinians. They're putting out statements welcoming the Board of 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:46.559 Peace and Trump's vision, maybe because they think this will 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:49.079 earn them a seat at the table, or maybe it's 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:51.920 a way to sideline their main opposition, Hamas, in whatever 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:54.160 crumbs of Palestine they're allowed to control in the future. 0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:57.760 Hamas has said in a statement that they also welcome 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:00.000 the formation of the Administrative Committee for the Kaza strips 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:04.400 to quote a chief calm in Gaza while noting that 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:06.520 they are working with mediators to get to the next 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:09.360 stage of the ceasefire, and they accuses you of trying 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:13.800 to break the ceasefire agreement. The Israeli government ironically rejects 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:17.640 any Palstinian involvement, even at the technocratic level, and have 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:20.160 vowed to take it up with their front Trump and 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:24.440 the Palestinian people. Well, here is Gazen journalist Hendro Darev 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:25.680 al Jazir English. 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:28.200 And what has been the reaction in Gaza to that 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:29.960 announcement of a move to Phase two. 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:34.080 Well, just like you said, it an announcement, a symbolic 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:38.440 announcement two Phase two. Palatinians did not see anything on 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:38.959 the ground. 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:40.199 There's no change. 0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:43.400 And despite all of that, we're still hearing drones as 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:46.400 you can hear in the background. We also heard a 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:49.160 couple of explosions since the early hours of the morning 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:54.720 were demolishings are still going on across the Gazza strip, especially. 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:56.160 After the yellow line. 0:13:56.400 --> 0:14:00.679 Palatinians are frustrated, they're very disappointed. They thought that Phase 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:03.480 two would give them the freedom of movement. 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:04.400 That would give them. 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:08.240 Reconstruction of Gaza would also give them a little bit 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:12.120 of what they lost. But on the ground, nothing happened, 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:15.079 nothing changed. What we know so far is there are 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:18.960 fifteen members that have been approved on to be ruling Gaza. 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:21.440 But there are a lot of questions and concerns. How 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:24.080 is this going to happen, What is going to happen 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:28.920 to the people here, the reconstruction, the rough crossing, thousands 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:32.720 who need to get education, and also people who need 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:37.040 to travel abroad to either get their treatment to get 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:41.960 to reunite with their family. So there's a lot of questions, 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:45.560 but mainly there is a lot of frustration because there's 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:47.680 nothing changing on the ground. 0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:53.480 People in Gaza are beyond exhaustion. Everyone wants some path 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:56.480 forward out of this nightmare. But I really don't think, 0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:58.880 for all the reasons I described here today that this 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:02.640 is it and we shouldn't let them, the Trumps and 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:06.160 or Bonds and billionaires of the world, get away with 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:10.440 the narrative that they're peacemakers and that apparently this is 0:15:10.440 --> 0:15:13.520 all in the name of tolerance and peace. That's it 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:16.000 for me today. Thank you for listening, and hope you're 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:16.680 all Staying Safe. 0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:32.960 Hello, Welcome to Cool People, did Cool Stuff Slash it 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:37.120 could happen here episode And this is a little pickup 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:41.600 we inserted because James and I Hi, James, Hi, Margaret 0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:45.880 and Margaret, that's James. We're on each other's shows this week. 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:50.680 We just spent three days in Minneapolis culminating in the 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:54.040 general strike last Friday, and we were there to cover 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:56.720 the rapid response networks and the mutual aid networks that 0:15:56.720 --> 0:15:59.160 people have been building, and that's what we're going to 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:01.520 be talking about in these two episodes. But the reason 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:04.240 that we're recording this little pickup right here to listen 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:07.440 to at the front of it is that nine hours 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:11.240 after we finished recording these episodes, shortly after both of 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:15.000 us had left the city, a man named Alex Pretty 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:21.120 was killed by federal agents in what is obviously something 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:24.560 that you all are familiar with. And we just kind 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:26.400 of want to mark that because I think the tone 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:29.160 in what we're talking about right now is we're so 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:33.320 excited about these networks that people have been building. But 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:36.160 obviously the tone would have changed a little bit had 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:39.040 we recorded it only nine hours later, and we would 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:42.360 have been talking about something slightly different. And that's just 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:43.960 the breaks of podcasting. 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:48.960 Yeah, the fundamental message, I guess wouldn't change, but we 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:51.840 all know that that doing what these people do can 0:16:51.880 --> 0:16:54.880 have terrible costs, and we were reminded of that again. 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:59.160 Yeah Saturday morning. I guess we should just say that, like, 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:03.280 we agree his passing and we're sending her thoughts to 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:06.159 his family and the people who loved him. Yeah, it's 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:08.000 gonna be a really hard time for them. 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:15.320 Absolutely, Hello, and welcome to Cool People Could Happen Here. 0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:18.680 I'm one of your hosts, Margaret Kiljoy, and with me 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:23.720 today as my other host is James. Hi. Margaret, we 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:28.320 are doing a special crossover episode of it Could Happen 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:30.280 Here and Cool People who did cool stuff. And we're 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:34.120 doing it because James and I are in sunny Minneapolis, 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:35.280 which is true. 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:38.120 The sun was out. Yeah, yeah, I saw the sun. Yeah, yeah, 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:40.280 I saw it through a cloud. 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:45.320 Of cold, cold air, the vapor of our own breath freezing. 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:50.800 I have seen more people today with frozen eyelashes than 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:53.160 any other point in my life. But together. 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:57.360 Yeah, I breathed into my goggles briefly and that froze, 0:17:57.640 --> 0:18:04.360 yeah from my eyes. Yeah, yeah, it was minus thirty 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:09.040 fahrenheight feel I guess with wind shill, what is that 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:12.040 and what is that in Celsius they come together at 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:14.560 minus forty, So it's going to be like minus thirty five. 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:16.560 I think something like that. It was. 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:20.199 It was for those who are not familiar cold, very cold. 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:23.200 And so the two of us came up to Minneapolis 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:25.160 a few days ago and we have spent the past 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:28.639 three days here talking to everyone we can about the 0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:32.680 rapid response networks that people have built to try to 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:37.240 keep themselves and their neighbors safe from ice and federal 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:41.119 oppression and the sort of federal occupation of the city, 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:43.240 and so what we thought we would do this is 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:46.480 kind of Neither of us have written scripts. Yet we 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:50.520 are still here. We just had a fun, slightly hectic 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:54.320 day where we spent only about twenty minutes reasonably sure 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:58.280 we were getting arrested. We didn't get arrested. No, thank you, comrade. Train. 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:01.200 Yeah we got on a LA rail and we're able 0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:03.520 to leave a kettle by a light rail, which is 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:07.399 a new experience for me. Yeah, I'm very European. Yeah, 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:10.359 and yeah, we came up here to talk to people 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:13.440 and that's been the like the story that I'm most 0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:15.560 interested in, right, is that we have all of these 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:18.919 stories that are absolutely true. The stakes are really high here, 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:24.280 but the things that people are building here are really incredible, 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:30.040 and people know that they're holding down ice here in 0:19:30.080 --> 0:19:32.440 a way that no one would have expected, I think, 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:36.240 And I don't know, So, yeah, you want to Should 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:39.680 we just talk about kind of our days? Yeah? 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:41.919 I think I just want to ground people before we 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:44.480 do that in that so much as if reporting on 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:48.159 Minneapolis has focused on trauma, and so much reporting on 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:51.560 migrants focuses on trauma, right, And I think people who 0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:53.840 have listened to our podcast know that that's not really 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:57.439 a game, and so I understand when they hear that 0:19:57.440 --> 0:19:59.360 we've been in Minneapolis, I think we're going to talk 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:03.760 about horrific things that we've seen. I want to talk 0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:07.439 more about the beautiful things that we've seen, because I 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:12.400 think those get missed and they're super important, especially if 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:15.840 you're listening in another city in the US which will 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:19.080 face some degree of this or is facing some degree 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:21.679 of this. Right, So I want to ground this in 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:25.119 saying that rather than talking about the trauma people experiencing, 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:27.720 which I'm sure will be incidental, I want to talk 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:29.960 about how closely people are holding each other here and 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:32.320 how special that is and what we can take from it. 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:35.480 Yeah, and like without obviously we're like, we're not trying 0:20:35.480 --> 0:20:37.840 to paint a rosy picture of what's happening here, because 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:42.240 what's happening here is like I must I'm a cold 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:45.840 hearted journalists, historian person, And I was crying the multiple 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:47.720 times in the past couple days as people told me 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:50.119 about some of the stuff they've experienced. But some of 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:53.520 it has been you know, we've asked people, We've said, like, hey, 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:55.199 what do you want people to take away from this? 0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:58.040 And one of the main things is that kind of 0:20:58.040 --> 0:21:00.880 a like hey, you can do it too kind of thing. 0:21:01.720 --> 0:21:05.239 And the other thing that people have talked about is 0:21:05.280 --> 0:21:08.960 like it would be really nice for people to see 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:12.200 that what we're doing is amazing here, even if it's 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:16.760 like coming out of such such horrendous adversity. Yeah. 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:19.280 Like one of the things that I've taken throughout my 0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:22.400 career is in hard times, we can build beautiful things. Yeah, 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:25.159 That's what I wrote my book about, really. Yeah, and 0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:26.400 what I've tried to report. 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:26.840 On all out of the world. 0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:28.720 They think this is more evidence of that, and so 0:21:28.920 --> 0:21:32.399 like you're going to hear things which were amazing and 0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:35.320 the people who've done them are wonderful, but they're not 0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:40.119 uniquely special. You can do all these things too, and like, 0:21:40.200 --> 0:21:44.240 I want you to see that it is possible where 0:21:44.280 --> 0:21:44.600 you live. 0:21:45.200 --> 0:21:49.639 Yeah. So one of the first things that we did 0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:53.159 when we got here we talked about, you know, to 0:21:53.520 --> 0:21:56.720 put ourselves in the story. I drove a long way 0:21:56.800 --> 0:21:59.359 and James flew a long way and yeah, you know, 0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:01.520 I picked up Jane at the airport and we came 0:22:01.560 --> 0:22:03.439 to where we're staying and we were talking about like 0:22:03.520 --> 0:22:04.800 and it was late at night and we're like, all right, 0:22:04.840 --> 0:22:06.600 what are we what are we trying to do tomorrow? 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:08.479 And what are we trying to see and what are 0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:10.760 we trying to learn? Yeah, And one of the main 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:12.800 things one of the first questions we had was like, 0:22:13.080 --> 0:22:16.240 what's the scale of what's happening here? Yeah? Right, Like, 0:22:16.240 --> 0:22:18.480 like what were your impressions of the scale of what 0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:21.960 was happening? Mmm? We should talk about what's happening here. 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:25.000 It's like really quickly, I bet you all know about 0:22:25.000 --> 0:22:26.920 it in the news. Why do I have a different 0:22:26.960 --> 0:22:29.119 tone of voice when I'm talking into a microphone in 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:30.720 this way, and so usually I'm in a zoom call. 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:33.240 But I staid, we're both sitting in a bedroom on 0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:36.320 opposite ends of the bedroom talking into microphones, and I 0:22:36.359 --> 0:22:38.080 somehow have a different cadence, and I don't know how 0:22:38.119 --> 0:22:40.520 I feel about it. Also, I've had to drink caffeine, 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:43.680 which I don't do, because we've had to do an 0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:47.760 awful lot. And anyway, what was I about to ask you. 0:22:48.080 --> 0:22:49.399 How widespread stuff is? 0:22:49.400 --> 0:22:49.480 Oh? 0:22:49.560 --> 0:22:51.119 Yeah, like, well, what was your okay? We were to 0:22:51.160 --> 0:22:52.080 talk about what's happening here? 0:22:52.080 --> 0:22:54.200 But yeah, so if people aren't for media, werey ICE, 0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:57.480 which is Immigration and Customs Enforcement. They're the agency charged 0:22:57.520 --> 0:23:02.280 with removing people from the United States who are non citizens, 0:23:02.359 --> 0:23:06.840 right who are considered deportable. Specifically, the branch of Immigration 0:23:06.920 --> 0:23:09.920 and Customs Enforcement that we are seeing here is Enforcement 0:23:10.040 --> 0:23:13.840 Removal Operations aka e o O. We're also seeing border 0:23:13.880 --> 0:23:17.760 patrol right in the last year, actually more than a 0:23:17.800 --> 0:23:20.639 year now, right this began under the bad deministration with 0:23:20.760 --> 0:23:23.640 Operation Return to Sender in the Central Valley of California. 0:23:24.119 --> 0:23:29.000 We are seeing border patrol agents used to do internal 0:23:30.000 --> 0:23:34.720 enforcement right of people who are generally documented sometimes undocumented 0:23:34.720 --> 0:23:38.399 but always non citizens. They are detaining them in the street, 0:23:38.480 --> 0:23:40.600 they are detaining them outside schools, They're detaining them at 0:23:40.600 --> 0:23:42.239 the bus stop, They're detaining them at places to work. 0:23:42.280 --> 0:23:45.720 And when I say detaining, that's as they are grabbing 0:23:45.760 --> 0:23:48.560 people out of cars. They're snatching children and using them 0:23:48.560 --> 0:23:52.440 to bait out their parents. They're smashing people's car windows 0:23:52.440 --> 0:23:56.720 and pulling them out. They're barging into businesses. In one case, 0:23:56.760 --> 0:23:59.359 they at at a Mexican restaurant and then arrested the 0:23:59.400 --> 0:24:04.000 workers later that day. I've visited a lot of places 0:24:04.040 --> 0:24:05.320 where terrible things happen. 0:24:05.440 --> 0:24:05.680 Right. 0:24:06.960 --> 0:24:10.239 The ship that is happening here, it's a ship that 0:24:10.320 --> 0:24:13.280 people come to America to get away from. Yeah, it 0:24:13.400 --> 0:24:18.199 is men in masks with guns pulling people who have 0:24:18.280 --> 0:24:22.720 done nothing wrong, who are here not harming anyone. People 0:24:22.720 --> 0:24:25.760 who do not have criminal records. Just for the I 0:24:25.760 --> 0:24:27.280 don't feel like I need to say that on this show, 0:24:27.320 --> 0:24:28.520 but I need to say that every time I talk 0:24:28.560 --> 0:24:31.880 about this. Right, like, the vast majority, something like eighty 0:24:31.920 --> 0:24:33.480 percent last time I know to the status of these 0:24:33.480 --> 0:24:36.000 people have no criminal records, and a criminal record could 0:24:36.000 --> 0:24:38.440 be something like fucking parking in the wrong place. 0:24:38.920 --> 0:24:42.680 I've been arrested. Yeah. Also, I don't care. I would 0:24:42.720 --> 0:24:46.080 give you a lot of crime. Everyone listening to this 0:24:46.160 --> 0:24:47.760 has done a lot of crime. Whether or not you've 0:24:47.760 --> 0:24:50.960 been caught, you're probably cried. 0:24:51.160 --> 0:24:53.080 Yeah you went a little bit too late through a 0:24:53.080 --> 0:24:57.240 red light whatever, Like, I don't think that matters, actually exactly, 0:24:57.400 --> 0:24:59.399 even if you're a lib, even if you believe it 0:24:59.520 --> 0:25:02.400 or justice system is fair, it should be fair for everyone. 0:25:02.560 --> 0:25:06.280 There shouldn't be different consequences for different people. Let's move 0:25:06.359 --> 0:25:10.320 past that, right, So, how wide spread is this? Margaret 0:25:10.320 --> 0:25:14.080 and I got in late, We sat up even later talking. 0:25:14.400 --> 0:25:15.840 We got the shitty vegan pizza. 0:25:16.080 --> 0:25:21.760 We ate it. We kind of was, yeah, I've had better. 0:25:21.960 --> 0:25:22.840 I won't name drop. 0:25:23.840 --> 0:25:29.160 We we woke up the next morning and within five 0:25:29.200 --> 0:25:32.960 minutes while waking up, we heard like beat beep. 0:25:32.720 --> 0:25:33.880 Coming down the street. Yeah. 0:25:34.080 --> 0:25:36.800 Both Margaret and I ran to the front door, spent 0:25:36.840 --> 0:25:40.200 a while trying to put on snow boots, and watched 0:25:40.240 --> 0:25:43.880 an Ice agent rolling down the street in what they 0:25:43.960 --> 0:25:47.359 normally drive in, right, which a rental SUVs with the 0:25:47.359 --> 0:25:51.760 windows blacked out, and people following them alerting the block 0:25:52.000 --> 0:25:53.440 the Ice was here, right. 0:25:53.400 --> 0:25:56.639 Yeah, and we're not downtown. We like picked an area 0:25:56.680 --> 0:26:00.000 that's like slightly lightly out of it, but we got 0:26:00.080 --> 0:26:02.600 warned that nowhere is goon free. Yeah, and they were right, 0:26:02.640 --> 0:26:03.520 nowhere is good free. 0:26:03.640 --> 0:26:03.760 Right. 0:26:04.680 --> 0:26:07.520 I mean we have probably been within a thirty minute 0:26:07.600 --> 0:26:10.680 radius of the spot we're staying at for three or 0:26:10.720 --> 0:26:11.240 four days. 0:26:11.320 --> 0:26:11.520 Right. 0:26:11.760 --> 0:26:14.760 We've seen ICE pile their car into a telephone pole. 0:26:14.840 --> 0:26:20.560 We've seen spent munitions on the floor, Ice tear gas 0:26:20.560 --> 0:26:22.280 and people a few blocks from us, but they were 0:26:22.280 --> 0:26:25.800 gone by the time we got there. And I don't 0:26:25.800 --> 0:26:27.399 want to get this out like front and center at 0:26:27.400 --> 0:26:30.720 the start, it was not Ice who kettle protesters. Today, 0:26:30.880 --> 0:26:34.600 it was Hennepin County Sheriff's office. It was not Ice 0:26:34.680 --> 0:26:37.200 who arrested people who approached them with their hands in 0:26:37.240 --> 0:26:38.800 the air trying to work out what was going on. 0:26:38.920 --> 0:26:42.160 That was Helipin County Sheriff's office. I've seen press conferences 0:26:42.160 --> 0:26:45.000 with Minneapolis police. I don't know what their deal is. 0:26:45.000 --> 0:26:47.320 I'll tell you the Hennepin County Sheriff's office for actively 0:26:47.400 --> 0:26:51.520 participating in this. Right, I'm not buying this local cops good. 0:26:52.200 --> 0:26:55.959 This will shock listeners. I'm not buying the local cops good. 0:26:56.080 --> 0:26:59.520 Federal cops. Bad narrative when cops get asked what site 0:26:59.520 --> 0:27:01.040 they're on? Now the side of the other cops. 0:27:01.600 --> 0:27:03.960 Well, it's interesting because the thing that you have is 0:27:03.960 --> 0:27:06.439 that you have you know, there's the great classic like 0:27:06.480 --> 0:27:08.520 if those were neutral in times of oppression or siding 0:27:08.520 --> 0:27:12.040 with the oppressors, right, Yeah, because the overall situation here, 0:27:12.040 --> 0:27:15.280 it seems to be, is that you do have much 0:27:15.320 --> 0:27:18.320 more the oppressive force here as an outside forces compared 0:27:18.320 --> 0:27:20.640 to any other protest movement I've seen in the United States. 0:27:20.840 --> 0:27:23.879 People are very aware that it is outsiders who have 0:27:24.000 --> 0:27:26.920 come to their city to steal their neighbors. 0:27:27.160 --> 0:27:28.600 Yeah, right, And. 0:27:28.560 --> 0:27:33.240 So because of that, the federal forces are the forces 0:27:33.280 --> 0:27:35.680 everyone's mad at, whereas a lot of the people who 0:27:35.720 --> 0:27:39.080 are standing up to federal forces are neutral or fine 0:27:39.080 --> 0:27:42.040 with police, and even like the concept of other federal agencies. 0:27:42.040 --> 0:27:45.000 They just don't want people snatching neighbors. Now that's not universal, 0:27:45.000 --> 0:27:47.000 but it's like some of the people we've talked to. Yeah, 0:27:47.040 --> 0:27:52.000 but what state level law enforcement has decided is that 0:27:52.040 --> 0:27:54.760 they are committed to keeping the peace and they can't 0:27:54.840 --> 0:27:58.720 keep the peace against ice, which they probably on some 0:27:58.880 --> 0:28:01.200 level morally know that they need into but they don't 0:28:01.400 --> 0:28:03.240 and instead they're like, all right, well we can mess 0:28:03.320 --> 0:28:04.280 up with the you know. 0:28:04.640 --> 0:28:07.479 The protest. We protested the great protested, right. 0:28:08.000 --> 0:28:11.160 But yeah, like when we saw people drive down honking 0:28:11.359 --> 0:28:13.400 the very first thing that we experienced in this town, 0:28:13.920 --> 0:28:16.359 and we weren't sure what it was. We were like, 0:28:16.600 --> 0:28:19.439 that is that people following ice and honking. And I 0:28:19.480 --> 0:28:22.520 had done a fair amount of research before I came, 0:28:22.840 --> 0:28:24.639 and I kind of knew about the whistles, and but 0:28:24.720 --> 0:28:27.960 I didn't really know about this like incredible network that 0:28:28.000 --> 0:28:28.720 people have built. 0:28:28.880 --> 0:28:33.000 Yeah, that what we saw was not in any way exceptional, right, 0:28:33.200 --> 0:28:35.639 that was just a standard treat on a Wednesday morning. 0:28:35.760 --> 0:28:38.600 Yeah, And so we get into we get into my 0:28:38.720 --> 0:28:41.040 vehicle and we start driving. You know, we have some 0:28:41.080 --> 0:28:42.760 places we think we're going to go check out. We 0:28:43.040 --> 0:28:45.239 have some you know, friends who are local who are 0:28:45.240 --> 0:28:48.760 going to talk to us. And we get like two 0:28:48.800 --> 0:28:54.480 blocks three blocks before we find people protecting Somali daycare. Yeah. 0:28:54.560 --> 0:28:57.000 Right, we uh, well before that, right, we went to 0:28:57.080 --> 0:28:59.120 the food c up to get food. Yeah, And we 0:28:59.160 --> 0:29:02.560 went into the food we got our food, and on 0:29:02.640 --> 0:29:04.320 the way out, we see this big old sign on 0:29:04.360 --> 0:29:06.320 the door which is like we're closed on the twenty 0:29:06.360 --> 0:29:09.440 third ice out of Minnesota. Yeah, I sat in Minneapolis 0:29:09.480 --> 0:29:11.160 whatever it is, and it's in English and Spanish, and 0:29:11.200 --> 0:29:13.800 it's like, in solidarity with our migrant neighbors, we're not opening. 0:29:14.000 --> 0:29:14.920 Yeah, And like. 0:29:15.520 --> 0:29:17.800 Obviously it's a food cut op, right, it's not a 0:29:17.800 --> 0:29:21.600 reactionary space that sort of planted a seed for me, Like, ah, 0:29:21.680 --> 0:29:23.640 like this is a big ass business, you know, like 0:29:23.760 --> 0:29:27.440 like it's not a business that necessarily relies on migrant labor. 0:29:27.480 --> 0:29:28.720 But I can see it being a space for people 0:29:28.800 --> 0:29:31.640 in solidarity. I wonder how why that is right? And 0:29:33.240 --> 0:29:35.440 they even in the time we've been here, I've seen 0:29:35.440 --> 0:29:37.800 businesses put those up that didn't happen. We were going 0:29:37.800 --> 0:29:40.560 out on Wednesday, right, like people being like, nah, this 0:29:40.640 --> 0:29:44.800 isn't right, but yeah, to go back. We What happened 0:29:44.840 --> 0:29:48.320 was that Margaret was driving. I was riding next to Margaret. 0:29:48.800 --> 0:29:50.600 I saw a group of people, one guy ahead, kind 0:29:50.600 --> 0:29:54.480 of tanned trousers on and I was like stop, Margaret. 0:29:54.840 --> 0:29:58.320 Margaret slowed down, signaled and turned into the parking lot. 0:29:58.360 --> 0:30:00.920 Of these folks were apt and they they had seen 0:30:01.040 --> 0:30:03.240 us right ham on the brakes and turn up in 0:30:03.280 --> 0:30:06.880 a vehicle with that estate plates. Then we then we 0:30:06.960 --> 0:30:08.960 better go speak to these people. We probably scared them. 0:30:09.120 --> 0:30:12.920 What's fin is we thought we scared them. No, yeah, 0:30:12.920 --> 0:30:15.800 they're not scared of us. No, they're looking to see 0:30:15.840 --> 0:30:18.640 if they're onto us. And it's such a huge difference, 0:30:18.680 --> 0:30:21.160 right right, because when people are scoping us out, they're 0:30:21.200 --> 0:30:23.320 not like, oh, that might be ice. They're like, is 0:30:23.360 --> 0:30:24.760 that ice? Let's fucking get them. 0:30:24.920 --> 0:30:25.080 Yeah. 0:30:25.160 --> 0:30:27.760 Yeah, like if that's ice, we need to roll right, 0:30:27.840 --> 0:30:29.280 we need to we need to let people know, we 0:30:29.280 --> 0:30:30.760 need to start honking, we need start whistling. 0:30:30.840 --> 0:30:31.000 Yeah. 0:30:31.040 --> 0:30:32.640 So we get out, walk over and we start talking 0:30:32.640 --> 0:30:35.800 to these people. And like, the person who was most 0:30:35.880 --> 0:30:39.600 forth right, most forthcoming was an older lady. I mean 0:30:39.880 --> 0:30:41.480 she shared her ragel. I think it's fine to say. 0:30:41.520 --> 0:30:45.320 I think seventy six. Yeah, it's probably a round zero 0:30:45.960 --> 0:30:49.800 fair andheigh, like even like that warmer than that, right, so, 0:30:49.960 --> 0:30:52.720 like you know minus ten celsius something there. 0:30:52.960 --> 0:30:56.600 Yeah, plate's not wearing a hat. Yeah, just give a fuck. Yeah, 0:30:56.640 --> 0:31:00.160 I'm chilly in my brand new winter clothes. Yeah, I 0:31:00.200 --> 0:31:02.280 live outside in the mountain. I don't live outside anymore, 0:31:02.280 --> 0:31:03.960 but I live in the mountains. 0:31:04.040 --> 0:31:07.560 Yeah, yeah, I'm wearing all my nice technical gear show 0:31:07.600 --> 0:31:13.200 on to Parker and yeah, and she's just like so zealous, 0:31:13.440 --> 0:31:17.560 is like she's so happy to be doing what she's doing, 0:31:17.600 --> 0:31:20.000 and so proud of herself for being the person who 0:31:20.040 --> 0:31:23.120 did it. Yeah, and in an earnest way, like in 0:31:23.160 --> 0:31:25.560 a way that a self congratulatory way, but just in 0:31:25.640 --> 0:31:27.360 a like I am one hundred percent convinced I'm in 0:31:27.400 --> 0:31:29.320 the right, and I will talk to you. Yeah, and 0:31:29.360 --> 0:31:31.880 I will say it with my whole chest. Yeah, Like, 0:31:32.200 --> 0:31:33.560 do you want to share some of the stuff you said? 0:31:33.560 --> 0:31:34.480 I thought it's really. 0:31:35.080 --> 0:31:36.800 One of the things that she said that, yeah, Like 0:31:36.880 --> 0:31:39.880 I mean, you know, she I didn't get the impression 0:31:39.960 --> 0:31:43.520 she was like a wild political radical or something, right, 0:31:43.560 --> 0:31:46.640 and she's just like, you know, my father fought fascists 0:31:46.680 --> 0:31:49.240 in France and Italy, and like he would be proud 0:31:49.240 --> 0:31:54.280 of me, and like, yeah, I'm sure he would be. Yeah, 0:31:54.440 --> 0:31:55.040 and I'm. 0:31:54.880 --> 0:31:57.120 Sure it would be disgusted at what's fucking happening. 0:31:57.280 --> 0:32:02.520 Yeah. And you know, and while we're talking, the Somali 0:32:02.600 --> 0:32:06.120 family who's daycare it is, comes out and gives us 0:32:06.120 --> 0:32:08.800 symbosas and we're like no, no, no, no, we're journalists. You 0:32:08.840 --> 0:32:10.840 don't have to give us anything. We're like not even helping. 0:32:10.920 --> 0:32:14.120 We're like, they're like, you're here, you're with us, you 0:32:14.200 --> 0:32:15.080 are taking food? 0:32:15.520 --> 0:32:18.000 Yeah, guy, like no where some monies we feed people 0:32:18.160 --> 0:32:20.280 like yeah, what's your deally vegetarian? 0:32:20.320 --> 0:32:21.240 We're like, we're with vegan. 0:32:21.360 --> 0:32:21.600 Yeah. 0:32:21.640 --> 0:32:24.800 So he comes out, goes back, comes out with vegan ones. Yeah, 0:32:24.880 --> 0:32:25.800 like they were delicious. 0:32:25.960 --> 0:32:28.160 Yeah, No, there's the best food I've ever eaten. As 0:32:28.160 --> 0:32:30.720 we're standing there, more people come and go. So you're like, Okay, 0:32:30.840 --> 0:32:33.920 this is happening here, right, you know, no pun intended. 0:32:34.400 --> 0:32:35.960 And we as we we leave, we talk to a 0:32:36.000 --> 0:32:37.680 few more people we leave, and and some of the 0:32:37.680 --> 0:32:39.440 other people we talk to are like and the people 0:32:39.440 --> 0:32:41.400 from different scenes, it's not you know, like. 0:32:41.480 --> 0:32:43.280 It's not just an old lady scene, right, it's a 0:32:43.280 --> 0:32:44.440 diverse crowd, right. 0:32:44.920 --> 0:32:47.479 And you know, we talk to a father who I 0:32:47.720 --> 0:32:52.320 tangentially know through the metal scene, who is like, yeah, 0:32:52.320 --> 0:32:55.440 my kid goes to school here. Yeah, like no one 0:32:55.560 --> 0:32:59.440 is taking kids while I can stand here, you know, 0:32:59.480 --> 0:33:01.280 And he was like, I have work to be doing it. 0:33:01.360 --> 0:33:01.520 You know. 0:33:01.560 --> 0:33:04.120 He's like, we're supposed to be recording this band today 0:33:04.200 --> 0:33:06.720 or whatever, and he's like, no, I'm here, I'm doing this. 0:33:07.080 --> 0:33:09.680 There's no sadness, you know, there's. 0:33:09.880 --> 0:33:11.720 No He's like, this is what I have to be doing. 0:33:11.760 --> 0:33:15.240 It's the most important thing to do. Every two blocks 0:33:16.720 --> 0:33:20.440 there are people on the corner, usually two people, sometimes alone. 0:33:20.680 --> 0:33:23.800 And those what we later learned because we were like, 0:33:23.800 --> 0:33:27.360 holy shit, there's ice watchers everywhere. Yeah, those are just 0:33:27.520 --> 0:33:32.200 the marked people we see. That's the minority. There are 0:33:32.280 --> 0:33:39.880 people driving constantly in very organized but entirely decentralized networks 0:33:39.920 --> 0:33:44.240 of rapid response where they have come together in these 0:33:44.280 --> 0:33:48.000 like hyper local Signal loops. Signal is an encrypted messaging 0:33:48.040 --> 0:33:53.160 app that you can use on any device Android iPhone. 0:33:53.360 --> 0:33:57.520 The government can't break its encryption. However, there's no truly 0:33:57.600 --> 0:33:58.320 safe system. 0:33:58.480 --> 0:34:00.320 It's the safest when we have and it will amount 0:34:00.320 --> 0:34:02.120 that he deletes mess user after a period of day if. 0:34:02.000 --> 0:34:03.760 You set it up to yeah, and which you should. 0:34:04.040 --> 0:34:07.160 And so people are using this system, and you know 0:34:07.200 --> 0:34:09.040 a ton of these people had never heard of Signal 0:34:09.040 --> 0:34:11.000 before in their life and now they're using this system. 0:34:11.280 --> 0:34:13.120 And also we talked to folks and people felt that 0:34:13.200 --> 0:34:15.919 like a certain level of transparency about the networks they're 0:34:15.920 --> 0:34:17.000 building is very useful. 0:34:17.120 --> 0:34:19.480 Yeah, we should probably address this head on, like just 0:34:19.480 --> 0:34:22.160 to be super clearly. Yeah, everything we are sharing is 0:34:22.160 --> 0:34:25.680 because people have implored us to share it. 0:34:25.840 --> 0:34:26.000 Right. 0:34:26.520 --> 0:34:29.120 We did not sneak in and find its information. People 0:34:29.239 --> 0:34:31.680 openly gave it to us because they wanted you to 0:34:31.719 --> 0:34:32.120 hear it. 0:34:32.239 --> 0:34:35.200 Right, Because they understand that this is the kind of 0:34:35.280 --> 0:34:38.919 system that is currently proving effective and they want people 0:34:38.960 --> 0:34:41.880 to learn from what they're doing, and so they've created 0:34:42.600 --> 0:34:47.360 hyper local systems like block by block. We have groups 0:34:48.040 --> 0:34:50.279 where neighbors are able to check in on neighbors and 0:34:50.320 --> 0:34:53.399 people are able to say, hey, I saw this thing right, yeah, 0:34:53.719 --> 0:34:59.520 you know, And so there is constant presence all over town. 0:34:59.560 --> 0:35:02.440 And when I say town, we spent our time in Minneapolis, 0:35:02.480 --> 0:35:03.840 but we have talked to a lot of people always 0:35:03.840 --> 0:35:05.920 say the same Paul is doing a similar thing, suburbs 0:35:05.920 --> 0:35:08.840 are doing a similar thing, even some small towns elsewhere 0:35:08.840 --> 0:35:10.359 in Minnesota. You're starting to do this. 0:35:10.680 --> 0:35:12.440 Yeah, I don't quite know where the town is, but 0:35:12.640 --> 0:35:14.640 if people are local, Like a few years ago, I 0:35:14.680 --> 0:35:18.200 went to a massive renfare here and already outed myself 0:35:19.200 --> 0:35:21.800 it's okay. I brought a cloak I must wear and folks. 0:35:22.040 --> 0:35:23.879 Folks all the way out there are doing it too. 0:35:23.920 --> 0:35:27.200 Which is that was that place had a rural Midwest vibe, 0:35:27.320 --> 0:35:28.000 let me tell you. 0:35:28.160 --> 0:35:29.799 And so people are doing this all over. 0:35:30.239 --> 0:35:34.680 I have never seen unity like this, No, Like the 0:35:34.719 --> 0:35:38.360 only time I've seen a city this much in lockstep 0:35:39.800 --> 0:35:42.399 is when I was in Comishlo in twenty twenty three. 0:35:42.640 --> 0:35:43.759 And where is that. 0:35:44.040 --> 0:35:46.800 Comishlo is the capital of what is generally referred to 0:35:46.840 --> 0:35:49.800 as Rajava, the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria. 0:35:50.520 --> 0:35:53.000 And at that time we were being bombed by Turkey. 0:35:53.480 --> 0:35:58.200 Turkey takes offense at Kurdish people having any autonomy. And 0:35:58.760 --> 0:36:01.040 this is what that felt like, because there is someone 0:36:01.160 --> 0:36:03.960 invading your town and taking your friends. 0:36:04.160 --> 0:36:06.160 Yeah, and everyone. 0:36:06.200 --> 0:36:08.640 I remember there were funerals, right, so one bomb killed 0:36:08.680 --> 0:36:12.760 thirty four, say, show the internal security forces, and remember 0:36:13.719 --> 0:36:16.640 everyone rolled out for the funeral like it was like 0:36:16.719 --> 0:36:20.120 a general strike. And that's what it feels like here, 0:36:20.440 --> 0:36:22.840 Like you could walk through town the day that happened 0:36:22.840 --> 0:36:25.240 and see people were sad and but they were sharing 0:36:25.280 --> 0:36:28.760 their sadness. And here people are mad and they're sharing 0:36:28.800 --> 0:36:30.840 their anger but also their love for one another. 0:36:31.040 --> 0:36:34.640 Yeah, even when someone was killed by Ice. This did 0:36:34.680 --> 0:36:37.160 not stop people from doing this work. Yeah, it brought 0:36:37.280 --> 0:36:42.279 more people out to do this work because people are like, no, this, this, 0:36:42.280 --> 0:36:44.760 this work needs to be done. And on some level 0:36:44.840 --> 0:36:47.120 the scale is that, right, Like, because if someone is 0:36:47.239 --> 0:36:51.040 seeking asylum, like, no one runs unless they have a reason, 0:36:51.680 --> 0:36:55.160 you know, And so sending people back to the places 0:36:55.160 --> 0:36:59.320 that they've sought asylum from often just means killing people. 0:36:59.360 --> 0:37:01.080 Yeah, I mean, look at the things that have happened 0:37:01.120 --> 0:37:03.719 in the last month. Right, gay men being sent back 0:37:03.719 --> 0:37:07.240 to Iran, where the punishment for that is death. People 0:37:07.760 --> 0:37:10.880 from this community, Korene people right being sent back to 0:37:10.920 --> 0:37:13.840 Mianmar where we know that they are directly delivered to 0:37:13.880 --> 0:37:17.920 a military prison. They are sending people back to Mauritania, 0:37:18.040 --> 0:37:22.759 where again you can be punished for being queer by death. Right, Like, 0:37:23.480 --> 0:37:26.480 what is happening here is that people's lives are at stake. 0:37:27.280 --> 0:37:29.080 I think sometimes people think, oh, we think of Vinie. 0:37:29.080 --> 0:37:30.759 You go out a place where life is less, you know, 0:37:31.080 --> 0:37:31.600 you don't. 0:37:31.400 --> 0:37:32.080 Have a target. 0:37:32.280 --> 0:37:36.200 No, that's not the deal. We're sending people back to Venezuela. Right, 0:37:36.320 --> 0:37:39.600 We're sending people from the US to Venezuela. The US, 0:37:39.760 --> 0:37:43.879 notably just kidnapped the president of Venezuela. Those people aren't 0:37:43.880 --> 0:37:46.960 going to have a nice time, right, And if you 0:37:47.080 --> 0:37:49.960 were a US intelligence agency and you wanted to insert 0:37:49.960 --> 0:37:52.000 people into Venezuela, that's how. 0:37:51.840 --> 0:37:52.759 You would do it. Yeah. 0:37:52.760 --> 0:37:55.680 And Venezuela knows that venez we are then that dumb 0:37:55.760 --> 0:37:58.520 and they are very paranoid. Yeah, and they are a 0:37:58.560 --> 0:38:00.759 state which has a great deal of ability to do 0:38:00.800 --> 0:38:02.160 finance based on that paranoia. 0:38:02.680 --> 0:38:05.000 And so people are aware of the stakes and they're 0:38:05.560 --> 0:38:08.600 they're doing something about it. And what's cool. It's so 0:38:08.719 --> 0:38:10.960 interesting because at the same time, but you know, there's 0:38:11.000 --> 0:38:12.759 a little bit of like, yeah, we're built different and 0:38:12.800 --> 0:38:16.040 certainly around the cold. That is absolutely true. And there 0:38:16.200 --> 0:38:19.239 is all of this stuff in the history of at 0:38:19.320 --> 0:38:24.200 least Minneapolis that people have built resistance out of, right, 0:38:24.320 --> 0:38:29.600 you know, all of this very active multiculturalism going back decades. 0:38:29.640 --> 0:38:32.360 We've talked to organizers who grew up and you know, 0:38:32.360 --> 0:38:34.040 we talked to an organizer grew up in the American 0:38:34.080 --> 0:38:37.360 Indian movement and was talking about like black and Indigenous 0:38:37.400 --> 0:38:40.160 solidarity going back to the sixties and seventies, right, and 0:38:40.480 --> 0:38:42.480 you know, and was saying, like there's all of this 0:38:42.640 --> 0:38:46.799 multicultural and solidarity. There's also all of these like cultural events, right. 0:38:46.840 --> 0:38:51.120 They have this huge Mayday parade right, or festival every year. 0:38:51.400 --> 0:38:52.960 It's funny, I've spent a lot time in Minneapolis, but 0:38:53.000 --> 0:38:54.760 I've never actually been here for this, but everyone's always 0:38:54.800 --> 0:38:57.560 talking about it, where basically people go to this park 0:38:57.880 --> 0:39:00.640 and build puppets and build giant puppets together. But it's 0:39:00.880 --> 0:39:04.319 it's decentralized, and so there's all of this history of 0:39:04.400 --> 0:39:07.799 decentralized organizing. And in twenty twenty, of course, you know, 0:39:07.880 --> 0:39:12.000 the the uprising kind of began here and people are 0:39:12.080 --> 0:39:13.719 very aware of that, and so they have all of 0:39:13.760 --> 0:39:16.000 these networks that have been built for years, and they 0:39:16.000 --> 0:39:20.160 weren't necessarily like crazy active in the intervening years. But 0:39:20.200 --> 0:39:23.840 people know each other on some level. And that's the 0:39:23.840 --> 0:39:26.160 thing though, because we expected kind of I expected people 0:39:26.160 --> 0:39:29.560 being like, ah, yes, they had all of these deep interconnections, 0:39:30.200 --> 0:39:32.560 and most people were talking to are like, no, I 0:39:32.600 --> 0:39:36.200 know my neighbors. Now do you know six months ago 0:39:36.480 --> 0:39:40.479 we had the we have these like small seeds, right, 0:39:41.000 --> 0:39:44.160 and so there, so people here are and aren't special 0:39:44.640 --> 0:39:47.799 about that, but do you know what is special? Else? 0:39:48.719 --> 0:39:51.360 I can buy I shut it to think, Margaret. I 0:39:51.400 --> 0:39:54.400 think what's special is the fact that you and I 0:39:54.520 --> 0:39:59.160 run anti capitalist podcasts. It's special as a lot of meanings. Yeah, 0:39:59.360 --> 0:40:02.800 that are inter by advertisements. Yeah, it is. It is different. 0:40:03.040 --> 0:40:05.839 It is a thing. And here they are. 0:40:06.239 --> 0:40:10.600 Yeah, thank you please in certain name of advertiser here 0:40:10.640 --> 0:40:13.080 for buying us a low grade vegan pizza which still 0:40:13.080 --> 0:40:19.960 cost us more than fifty dollars. 0:40:25.400 --> 0:40:25.919 Andrew back. 0:40:26.400 --> 0:40:29.799 Yeah. I wanted to talk a little bit about like 0:40:29.840 --> 0:40:33.520 the structures that exist, right, and I think probably the 0:40:33.520 --> 0:40:35.520 way to do that is to break this down into 0:40:35.560 --> 0:40:40.480 two distinct I guess categories. And I think these are 0:40:40.560 --> 0:40:43.239 distinct in terms of organizing for the most part. Right, 0:40:43.800 --> 0:40:47.880 one is mutual aid and one is rapid response. And 0:40:47.920 --> 0:40:49.839 I just want to break down why people are doing 0:40:50.040 --> 0:40:50.880 mutual aid. 0:40:51.400 --> 0:40:51.680 First. 0:40:51.920 --> 0:40:53.520 First of all, we're doing mutual aid because it is 0:40:53.520 --> 0:40:55.160 the way that we build a better world by taking 0:40:55.200 --> 0:40:57.960 care of one another without trying to extract profit from 0:40:57.960 --> 0:41:01.080 one another. Why they're doing it is because people right 0:41:01.120 --> 0:41:04.640 now who are at risk of deportation are afraid to 0:41:04.760 --> 0:41:05.640 leave their homes. 0:41:06.520 --> 0:41:10.959 They are living like a lot of Jewish people lived 0:41:10.960 --> 0:41:11.319 in nuts. 0:41:11.800 --> 0:41:14.360 This is a this is a comparison to somebody whose 0:41:14.440 --> 0:41:17.600 grandparents fled the Holocaust made for us today. 0:41:18.840 --> 0:41:20.640 Like Jewish people did Nazi Germany. Right. 0:41:20.680 --> 0:41:22.719 The difference is this time they know their neighbors have 0:41:22.800 --> 0:41:26.560 their back. Yeah, and so they're afraid to go out. 0:41:26.640 --> 0:41:26.799 Right. 0:41:26.880 --> 0:41:29.920 Schools are offering remote education because kids are afraid to 0:41:29.960 --> 0:41:33.000 go to school because ice has been hitting school bus stops. 0:41:33.719 --> 0:41:34.000 Yeah. 0:41:34.600 --> 0:41:36.879 People can't go out and get groceries, and they can't 0:41:36.880 --> 0:41:40.240 go to their jobs, so they can't pay their bills. 0:41:40.360 --> 0:41:42.560 And so that requires if we want to take care 0:41:42.640 --> 0:41:44.600 of people, we have to feed them. We have to 0:41:44.640 --> 0:41:47.279 help them pay their bills, meet their material needs, get 0:41:47.320 --> 0:41:52.440 their kids educated. That is a heavy lift. Capitalism extracts 0:41:52.480 --> 0:41:55.080 are pretty heavy fee for paying rent. Right, we give 0:41:55.160 --> 0:41:59.160 most of our lives, yeah, capital so that we can 0:41:59.200 --> 0:42:02.600 get food and pay rent, clothes and shit. We have 0:42:02.680 --> 0:42:05.560 to do that without that here, right, And people are 0:42:05.560 --> 0:42:08.839 doing it. So they are organizing food drop off, they're 0:42:08.920 --> 0:42:13.719 organizing diaper banks, they're organizing to give people rides who 0:42:13.800 --> 0:42:18.000 might not feel safe driving by themselves. Yeah, they're taking 0:42:18.040 --> 0:42:19.560 people's kids some often. 0:42:19.680 --> 0:42:19.799 Right. 0:42:19.880 --> 0:42:22.800 A scenario that I'm very familiar with is citizen children 0:42:23.280 --> 0:42:27.399 born to non citizen parents, So those kids, no one 0:42:27.480 --> 0:42:30.200 is safe when you have this many people running around 0:42:30.200 --> 0:42:34.279 with weapons, right and very poor training and then a 0:42:34.320 --> 0:42:36.040 lot of anger and yeah, not very good at driving 0:42:36.040 --> 0:42:38.759 in the snow. But their kids are still able to 0:42:38.760 --> 0:42:41.319 go out and go to school. But it's about idea 0:42:41.400 --> 0:42:44.800 for their parents are taken, right. So you're seeing people 0:42:45.080 --> 0:42:48.719 organizing school runs, getting food for people. Then you've got 0:42:48.719 --> 0:42:51.160 businesses that are owned by migrants, right like there, or 0:42:51.360 --> 0:42:54.680 businesses that are largely staffed by migrants. So it's trying 0:42:54.680 --> 0:42:57.360 to keep those places afloat so that community can continue 0:42:57.400 --> 0:42:59.880 to care for itself. But when it's workers can't come 0:42:59.880 --> 0:43:03.000 in or what if the majority of the clian tell 0:43:03.120 --> 0:43:07.000 of the business of migrants, well maybe people volunteer to 0:43:07.040 --> 0:43:09.840 do delivery, right, so that that business can stay afloat 0:43:09.880 --> 0:43:12.239 and those migrants can still get the foods that make 0:43:12.320 --> 0:43:14.240 them feel safe at a time when they don't feel safe. 0:43:14.239 --> 0:43:17.920 Whatever it is, right, people are meeting each other's needs 0:43:19.040 --> 0:43:22.719 without trying to extract like financial compensation from each other. 0:43:22.840 --> 0:43:24.919 And to talk about the decentralized nature of this again, 0:43:25.040 --> 0:43:29.320 and it's like hyper local, like no org. Many orgs, 0:43:29.440 --> 0:43:33.120 but no one org. Stepped in and was like, ah, 0:43:33.160 --> 0:43:35.520 this is the way to do it. Here's this top 0:43:35.600 --> 0:43:40.680 down flow chart. Instead. All of these groups started in 0:43:40.719 --> 0:43:43.560 different ways, like we've talked to people from like different neighborhoods, 0:43:43.560 --> 0:43:45.960 where like ah, it all started like this, and then 0:43:45.960 --> 0:43:49.760 they paint a completely different picture from people from three 0:43:49.760 --> 0:43:50.479 blocks over. 0:43:50.920 --> 0:43:51.160 Yeah. 0:43:51.400 --> 0:43:54.240 Yeah, And like you know, someone was like the mutual 0:43:54.239 --> 0:43:59.200 aid here started with one mom who was like, while 0:43:59.239 --> 0:44:04.240 I'm making food, yeah, and in her own kitchen made food. Yeah. 0:44:04.280 --> 0:44:07.440 And then it was like I will carry the entire 0:44:07.480 --> 0:44:09.840 weight of the world as necessary upon my shoulders. 0:44:09.880 --> 0:44:11.920 Yeah, yeah, yeah, And then other people. 0:44:11.640 --> 0:44:14.239 Were like, okay, I'll help you lift this. I think 0:44:14.280 --> 0:44:16.279 of the have you seen the meme about like I 0:44:16.320 --> 0:44:19.359 can't lift weights with my anarchist friends. No, I can't 0:44:19.400 --> 0:44:21.440 lift weights with my anarchist friends because every time I 0:44:21.600 --> 0:44:23.880 did pick up the bar bell, like thirty of my 0:44:23.960 --> 0:44:26.320 friends come over and help me lift the bar bells 0:44:26.480 --> 0:44:30.840 while singing John Henry. 0:44:31.320 --> 0:44:32.240 Yeah it's perfect. 0:44:32.640 --> 0:44:36.840 And that's like what's happening here? Yeah, you know. And 0:44:36.880 --> 0:44:39.640 so so one person starts doing this thing and people say, oh, 0:44:39.680 --> 0:44:42.000 that's a good idea, and there are these other networks 0:44:42.080 --> 0:44:45.160 that can then tie that in and people will be 0:44:45.200 --> 0:44:47.480 heavily involved in one network and have a little bit 0:44:47.480 --> 0:44:49.640 of an understanding what's happening in the other networks. Yeah, 0:44:49.960 --> 0:44:52.120 but enough people are talking to each other that they're 0:44:52.200 --> 0:44:55.840 learning best practices, they're learning what doesn't doesn't work, and 0:44:55.880 --> 0:44:58.600 they're also changing to get to mean the threat. 0:44:58.760 --> 0:45:01.000 Yeah, I think the thing is here that no one's 0:45:01.040 --> 0:45:03.240 coming in with like tax deductible funding. 0:45:03.719 --> 0:45:03.959 Yeah. 0:45:04.040 --> 0:45:06.480 Right, this is just people taking care of people. 0:45:06.680 --> 0:45:07.160 Yeah. 0:45:07.239 --> 0:45:10.919 That has been sustainable for some time, right, like since 0:45:10.920 --> 0:45:14.239 since mid December we're now in late January. That is 0:45:14.239 --> 0:45:17.720 a thing that like there is a need for money, yeah, 0:45:17.760 --> 0:45:19.399 to keep making that happen. And that is an area 0:45:19.440 --> 0:45:21.279 where people outside of Minneapolis going to help if they 0:45:21.320 --> 0:45:23.279 want to. So I just want to flag that, Yeah, 0:45:23.320 --> 0:45:25.160 and we will drop some resources at the end of 0:45:25.239 --> 0:45:27.279 these two episodes, and we'll drop at the end of 0:45:27.320 --> 0:45:30.719 the first episode and hopefully you'll, if you feel so inclined, 0:45:30.760 --> 0:45:33.960 you'll be able to help financially. But yeah, let's talk 0:45:34.000 --> 0:45:37.040 about rapid response. ICE is not as large of an 0:45:37.080 --> 0:45:39.120 agency as they wish there was. You know, there's so 0:45:39.239 --> 0:45:41.400 much news about how hard of a time they're having 0:45:41.920 --> 0:45:44.040 hiring people to the point where they like hired the 0:45:44.200 --> 0:45:47.919 like leftist journalist too, was like, yeah, applied as a joke, 0:45:48.320 --> 0:45:50.160 you know here. 0:45:50.120 --> 0:45:50.279 You know. 0:45:50.719 --> 0:45:53.920 And so they've they've had the surge here, the flood 0:45:54.000 --> 0:45:56.719 they called it, I believe of agents here and you 0:45:56.719 --> 0:45:58.920 know there's about three thousand I think the ice agents 0:45:58.920 --> 0:46:00.319 in the city. Yeah, I think it was met first 0:46:00.320 --> 0:46:05.880 surge here midway flood was Chicago, Okay, And they can't 0:46:06.080 --> 0:46:10.320 do that everywhere at once. So if you play video games, 0:46:10.800 --> 0:46:14.759 Minneapolis is tanking. Did do you know the concept of tanking? Yeah, 0:46:15.080 --> 0:46:18.080 you'd ask to be a video game Dungeons Dragons, I know, 0:46:18.239 --> 0:46:19.920 I know they do it. Yeah, you can tank in 0:46:20.000 --> 0:46:22.839 Dungeons and Dragons, but the actual weirdly, I think the 0:46:22.840 --> 0:46:25.959 concept of tanking comes not from Dungeons and Dragons. Yeah, 0:46:26.160 --> 0:46:28.600 later additions that this is a nerd tangent. 0:46:28.920 --> 0:46:32.640 Anyway, James and Margaret talked about Dungeons Dragons eptomology. 0:46:32.800 --> 0:46:37.279 Yeah, the concept is that one person stands there and 0:46:37.360 --> 0:46:41.920 takes the damage while other people heal that person and 0:46:42.120 --> 0:46:47.680 do damage to the people attacking that person or prepare themselves. Yeah. Well, 0:46:47.719 --> 0:46:51.520 in the video game version, as you you know, one 0:46:51.520 --> 0:46:53.840 person takes all the damage while everyone else is also 0:46:54.120 --> 0:46:57.279 helping do the damage back. Yes, that's literally just the 0:46:57.320 --> 0:47:02.080 world of warcraft version. But Minneapolis is tanking. The Twin 0:47:02.200 --> 0:47:07.960 Cities and Minnesota are tanking, and all of the ice 0:47:08.000 --> 0:47:11.440 agents that are here aren't somewhere else. And one of 0:47:11.480 --> 0:47:13.239 the ways that they're making that possible it is through 0:47:13.320 --> 0:47:17.000 rapid response and rapid response that's what the name says. 0:47:17.040 --> 0:47:20.239 That is a way to respond rapidly. Which is the 0:47:20.280 --> 0:47:22.040 other Okay, this is the other question I had coming in. 0:47:22.120 --> 0:47:24.080 Why does this work? This was my thought. I was like, 0:47:24.680 --> 0:47:27.279 why does blowing whistles at ice agents make them not 0:47:27.320 --> 0:47:28.279 able to kidnap people? 0:47:28.320 --> 0:47:28.520 Yeah? 0:47:28.640 --> 0:47:30.960 So I was like, does this work? That was one 0:47:30.960 --> 0:47:33.760 of the main questions we ask people. The answer is yes, 0:47:34.520 --> 0:47:37.120 it doesn't work all the time. This is still a 0:47:37.160 --> 0:47:42.400 tragic situation where everyone involves is kind of traumatized to 0:47:43.880 --> 0:47:46.160 medium to greater degrees. I don't want to say the 0:47:46.239 --> 0:47:52.880 lesser degrees. But what happens is is that if the 0:47:52.880 --> 0:47:58.480 ice agents are out numbered, they usually don't successfully abduct anyone, 0:47:58.719 --> 0:48:01.360 even though they're the only harmed people in the situation. 0:48:01.840 --> 0:48:04.640 Even though they theoretically the way that police would act. 0:48:04.719 --> 0:48:08.040 Being outnumbered. It helps, but it's not as much of 0:48:08.080 --> 0:48:13.160 a game changer. Yeah, with ICE being wildly unpopular occupying 0:48:13.239 --> 0:48:16.920 force so far at least currently, outnumbering them seems to 0:48:17.280 --> 0:48:23.160 often stop abductions. At first, I believe decemberish, the way 0:48:23.200 --> 0:48:26.959 that ICE was handling things was these big, spectacular raids 0:48:26.960 --> 0:48:28.640 that we've seen in a lot of places. Thirty agents 0:48:28.680 --> 0:48:31.319 are showing up and raiding this place, right, and so 0:48:31.360 --> 0:48:33.600 if you get a call about that, a rapid response 0:48:33.640 --> 0:48:35.560 can be twenty minutes, it can be thirty minutes. You 0:48:35.600 --> 0:48:39.280 can show up and you're still part of fighting against 0:48:39.320 --> 0:48:42.520 this happening. And this is what's happening all over the country, right. Yeah, 0:48:42.920 --> 0:48:47.120 So ICE here adapted and started moving faster and faster. Yeah, 0:48:47.160 --> 0:48:49.880 and so now often these abductions take two or three minutes. 0:48:50.480 --> 0:48:52.960 So they were like, how do we get a crowd 0:48:53.040 --> 0:48:56.440 in two minutes? And when when an organizer first, like 0:48:56.680 --> 0:48:58.640 everyone here as an organizer, When a person who does 0:48:58.680 --> 0:49:01.160 this first suggested that's to me, my thought was like, 0:49:01.960 --> 0:49:06.560 well you don't, Yeah, that's impossible, it's not They do it, yeah, 0:49:07.239 --> 0:49:13.400 and they do it because everyone here in Minneapps like 0:49:13.440 --> 0:49:16.160 I cannot everyone everyone, but I I haven't run across 0:49:16.200 --> 0:49:23.560 too many counterexamples. Yeah, is themselves willing to respond, yeah like, 0:49:23.960 --> 0:49:27.960 and so when you hear people honking and whistles outside, 0:49:28.840 --> 0:49:29.719 you go outside. 0:49:31.000 --> 0:49:34.480 Yeah, I mean we heard someone was mentioning that they 0:49:34.480 --> 0:49:37.560 had seen and to be clear, this morning again the 0:49:37.680 --> 0:49:41.800 real feel was in the minus thirties celsius and fahrenheit, 0:49:41.960 --> 0:49:45.680 which is the last Friday if you're but they have 0:49:45.800 --> 0:49:47.560 said they were on the block, they heard some honking, 0:49:47.560 --> 0:49:50.520 they come outside their theybis were outside and cut off 0:49:50.560 --> 0:49:53.400 pajama pants and crogs, screaming and blowing whistles. 0:49:53.600 --> 0:49:54.880 Yeah, right, like, and. 0:49:55.280 --> 0:49:58.640 You we saw it, even when someone mistook us for 0:49:58.719 --> 0:50:00.640 ice agents. Right and within a couple of minutes, a 0:50:00.680 --> 0:50:02.560 couple of people are come and we were to girl 0:50:02.560 --> 0:50:07.799 with journalists like yeah, long hair like yeah exactly like 0:50:07.920 --> 0:50:10.719 crusty like you can you can see us coming but 0:50:10.800 --> 0:50:11.600 out of state plates. 0:50:11.760 --> 0:50:11.960 Yeah. 0:50:12.560 --> 0:50:15.680 A city is made of people, right like that. The 0:50:15.719 --> 0:50:17.640 people are out there, the blood pumping through the veins 0:50:17.640 --> 0:50:20.719 of a city. It's not made buildings, and there are 0:50:20.719 --> 0:50:24.680 people everywhere, and when all of them are willing to 0:50:24.800 --> 0:50:27.080 show up, right or half of them. 0:50:27.360 --> 0:50:27.800 Yeah. 0:50:27.960 --> 0:50:30.160 Well, in the entire time we have seen here, the 0:50:30.200 --> 0:50:32.920 only person who has expressed any negativity about what is 0:50:32.920 --> 0:50:35.640 happening is a person in a truck today who was 0:50:35.680 --> 0:50:38.239 honking at a large protest that we were part of 0:50:38.360 --> 0:50:40.520 in a way that was clearly adversarial. Oh yeah, yeah, 0:50:40.600 --> 0:50:42.040 literally one person. 0:50:42.120 --> 0:50:43.040 He was also stuck. 0:50:43.400 --> 0:50:45.040 Yeah, he was also stuck and had been stuck for 0:50:45.080 --> 0:50:49.640 some time, and it struggling with a merged situation that happened. 0:50:49.360 --> 0:50:53.720 When we actually don't know his political opinions. He was unhappy, 0:50:53.880 --> 0:50:54.160 he was. 0:50:54.120 --> 0:50:57.920 Just That's the only person I've seen express any upset. 0:50:58.640 --> 0:51:01.640 Like every person I can guess out at the supermarket, 0:51:01.880 --> 0:51:07.200 the people who we have run into a coffee shops right, like, yeah, 0:51:07.320 --> 0:51:11.239 Randos outside the Dollar General store. Yeah, people we see 0:51:11.239 --> 0:51:13.600 in the street. But people we see in the street 0:51:13.600 --> 0:51:15.160 are standing it. It's cold as fuck. No one, it's 0:51:15.239 --> 0:51:19.080 just like vibing on a park bench currently. But everyone, yeah, 0:51:19.280 --> 0:51:21.040 is one hundred in. 0:51:21.080 --> 0:51:24.440 It on the fuck these guys page, Yeah, like we 0:51:24.440 --> 0:51:27.080 we today we heard about an ice vehicle that crashed 0:51:27.080 --> 0:51:29.319 indoor pole And this is actually fairly calm, and I 0:51:29.360 --> 0:51:32.360 believe because one they don't know how to drive in ice, yeah, 0:51:32.400 --> 0:51:36.719 and Minneapolis is icy, and they were driving like a 0:51:37.239 --> 0:51:38.880 I don't know whether the vehicles all we were driving not. 0:51:39.000 --> 0:51:42.560 It was a Ford escape, yeah, but it was some 0:51:43.120 --> 0:51:44.320 not altering tires. 0:51:44.560 --> 0:51:47.879 Yeah, No, those were pretty those were some Californior ass 0:51:47.880 --> 0:51:48.200 to ice. 0:51:48.360 --> 0:51:51.000 Yeah. And it's just crashed in a pole in a 0:51:51.080 --> 0:51:53.319 like pretty impressive way, like they had to be gone 0:51:53.320 --> 0:51:54.200 at a decent speed. 0:51:54.280 --> 0:51:54.440 Yeah. 0:51:54.440 --> 0:51:57.040 They both hair bags are deployed, the radiator was done, 0:51:57.160 --> 0:52:00.000 the engine block was you know, like, Yeah, they'd crumpled 0:52:00.040 --> 0:52:04.160 the front of the car. It's because they drive erratically 0:52:04.239 --> 0:52:06.319 when people are driving behind them try and get rid 0:52:06.360 --> 0:52:10.280 of them, and they are driving ill equipped, both skill 0:52:10.320 --> 0:52:11.520 wise and vehicle wise. 0:52:11.640 --> 0:52:15.279 Yeah. And so we showed up. Yeah, an hour and 0:52:15.320 --> 0:52:18.040 a half after the crash. They just abandoned the vehicle. 0:52:18.040 --> 0:52:20.280 They're like, they came and got some of their stuff 0:52:20.320 --> 0:52:22.200 out of the car, toss some to your guys, Yeah, 0:52:22.280 --> 0:52:24.320 tossed them. S here, guys. We saw the canister on 0:52:24.360 --> 0:52:26.520 the ground of SATs gas and they just left it 0:52:26.560 --> 0:52:28.759 there and they were not going to clean it up. 0:52:28.840 --> 0:52:31.840 I don't believe they will ever clean it up. That'll 0:52:31.840 --> 0:52:34.720 be on the local police or whoever, you know, city 0:52:34.960 --> 0:52:38.279 And we're standing there and a guy drives by and 0:52:38.600 --> 0:52:43.040 he's just a normal man. Yeah, no distinguishing features, no 0:52:43.080 --> 0:52:47.600 man yet, no belief to be a subcultural or lefty 0:52:47.840 --> 0:52:50.640 or someone drives by and it is like, oh shit, 0:52:50.719 --> 0:52:53.000 is everyone okay? And I was like, oh, that's a 0:52:53.080 --> 0:52:56.440 nice vehicle and he just starts laughing the park say 0:52:56.440 --> 0:53:01.520 his car. He gets down and this happens over and 0:53:01.520 --> 0:53:03.680 this is must have been happening over and over over 0:53:03.719 --> 0:53:04.479 an hour to happen. 0:53:04.560 --> 0:53:04.880 Yeah. 0:53:05.080 --> 0:53:07.480 What else I noticed then was like, so we were 0:53:07.520 --> 0:53:10.360 walking up and this this this person popped out of 0:53:10.360 --> 0:53:12.640 their house and was like, hey, what's happening. 0:53:12.680 --> 0:53:15.239 We're like, oh, I spitfed it into this pole. Yeah. 0:53:15.280 --> 0:53:17.160 And they were like okay, if you guys need anything, 0:53:17.480 --> 0:53:19.640 like I'm here, I'm taking care of some kids or 0:53:19.640 --> 0:53:20.000 an elder. 0:53:20.040 --> 0:53:21.640 I can't remember, but they were like, you need to 0:53:21.640 --> 0:53:23.239 come in the house. It's called just come to come 0:53:23.320 --> 0:53:24.920 knock on the door, like you need a hot drink, 0:53:24.960 --> 0:53:27.440 you know, like and one more press. We're not like hello, 0:53:27.480 --> 0:53:30.000 we are the activists, you know. Yeah, like you know, 0:53:30.040 --> 0:53:32.160 I'm to be clear, I'm wearing a helmet mark. Were 0:53:32.160 --> 0:53:34.919 both wearing helmets with with big blue press patches on them. 0:53:35.640 --> 0:53:38.600 So one of the things I noticed is like, and 0:53:38.680 --> 0:53:40.920 it's been repeated a bit and then reported on a 0:53:40.960 --> 0:53:43.400 little bit, like these three D printed whistles, right, Yeah. 0:53:43.440 --> 0:53:46.200 One of the ways that people identify someone was saying 0:53:46.760 --> 0:53:47.959 them that people know you're cool. 0:53:48.080 --> 0:53:49.200 It's like people are. 0:53:49.120 --> 0:53:52.040 All carrying whistles around the next like almost I was 0:53:52.120 --> 0:53:54.359 just keeping an eye on this is as we met 0:53:54.400 --> 0:53:58.040 people throughout the last few days. Everybody had a caribbean 0:53:58.080 --> 0:53:59.480 with their keys and a whistle on it, or a 0:53:59.480 --> 0:54:01.680 whistle on their neck, or there was a whistle on 0:54:01.719 --> 0:54:05.200 a lanyard on their wrist. It's like a little market. 0:54:05.920 --> 0:54:07.920 And what's interesting is we've talked to people about how 0:54:07.920 --> 0:54:09.279 at the beginning, I mean a lot of people are 0:54:09.320 --> 0:54:12.240 like this seems kind of silly. Yeah right, You're like, oh, 0:54:12.800 --> 0:54:16.279 they're the federal I mean they're the Gestapo, right yeah yeah, 0:54:16.280 --> 0:54:20.680 and we have whistles and so it seems so absurd. Yeah, 0:54:20.960 --> 0:54:24.960 but there's so many parts of it they hate. They 0:54:25.000 --> 0:54:28.320 want to operate in secrecy. Yeah. Yeah, we see watchers 0:54:28.320 --> 0:54:31.560 on every corner. We don't see ice, like this is 0:54:31.600 --> 0:54:35.560 a city under occupation. But it's like visibly under occupation 0:54:35.600 --> 0:54:39.440 by its own defenders. Yeah right, it is like infiltrated 0:54:40.040 --> 0:54:43.600 by federal agents. Not like you don't you know, I've 0:54:43.600 --> 0:54:46.760 been in places where you have like the the police 0:54:46.840 --> 0:54:51.279 rolling around in their tank things with yeah, and like 0:54:51.760 --> 0:54:55.800 this isn't that because they can't actually express much force. 0:54:56.600 --> 0:54:58.719 They can't even be seen as you go. They're trying 0:54:58.719 --> 0:55:01.880 their very hardest to right. They have tinted vehicles, they 0:55:01.920 --> 0:55:04.840 cover their faces. They keep getting different rentals so people 0:55:04.840 --> 0:55:08.840 can't recognize it. Yeah, like they are trying their best 0:55:08.960 --> 0:55:10.960 to blend in and failing. 0:55:11.200 --> 0:55:15.719 Yeah. And everyone having a whistle. So not only is 0:55:15.719 --> 0:55:19.920 it effective because it draws attention to them, it makes 0:55:20.040 --> 0:55:26.000 you a defender. It's a very cheap and easy way. 0:55:26.120 --> 0:55:29.760 You hand them a whistle, and you're handling them responsibility. 0:55:30.239 --> 0:55:32.880 You're saying like you are now it's like I mean, 0:55:32.880 --> 0:55:34.520 it's handing some of their goddamn sword. 0:55:35.239 --> 0:55:35.440 You know. 0:55:35.600 --> 0:55:38.319 It a like night Fantasy land way right, Yeah, like 0:55:38.320 --> 0:55:40.080 you're one of us when we take care of each other, 0:55:40.239 --> 0:55:42.359 and you are going to defend people. Yeah, and you're 0:55:42.400 --> 0:55:46.359 going to defend people by casting these people Like it's 0:55:46.400 --> 0:55:49.640 so interesting because I'm so used to thinking like power 0:55:49.640 --> 0:55:52.840 doesn't need to hide, right, Like, yeah, you know when 0:55:52.920 --> 0:55:56.000 journalists are like, oh, well, what they really fear is 0:55:56.040 --> 0:55:58.600 the truth, and you know, I'm like, well. 0:55:58.440 --> 0:55:59.600 Power doesn't need to hide. 0:55:59.600 --> 0:56:02.800 By the power is not with the folks driving around 0:56:03.880 --> 0:56:08.680 and occupying the city right now. The more relevant power 0:56:09.800 --> 0:56:11.640 is with the folks standing on street corners who don't 0:56:11.640 --> 0:56:13.640 feel the need to hide, who want afraid, right. 0:56:14.640 --> 0:56:19.440 And like, this is part of why I hate saying 0:56:19.480 --> 0:56:22.560 things like this. I think we're gonna win. Yeah, And 0:56:22.600 --> 0:56:26.719 I haven't felt that way in years, And like, yeah, 0:56:27.040 --> 0:56:32.960 I think that this spirit, the spirit that is animating 0:56:33.040 --> 0:56:36.040 this city is the thing that will get us through it. 0:56:36.160 --> 0:56:38.920 And when I say when when conditions are all weird 0:56:38.960 --> 0:56:41.360 and hard and we're going to lose a lot of people, 0:56:42.280 --> 0:56:44.120 like we're going to lose a lot of like. 0:56:44.080 --> 0:56:45.799 Grabbing people up the street here every day to spy 0:56:45.800 --> 0:56:46.080 ale of. 0:56:46.120 --> 0:56:48.719 This because when I'm like, oh, people are stopping so 0:56:48.719 --> 0:56:52.440 many abductions, they're also everyone we've talked to has stop 0:56:52.520 --> 0:56:56.240 abductions and failed to stop abductions. Yeah, and that haunts 0:56:56.239 --> 0:56:58.160 a lot of them. I think I think so too, 0:56:58.280 --> 0:57:03.800 And yeah, people are really torn between those two things. 0:57:03.920 --> 0:57:07.160 Yeah, I'll just say that like as someone who's been 0:57:07.200 --> 0:57:08.759 in it for a minute when it comes to like 0:57:08.800 --> 0:57:12.560 advocacy for migrants, right. Yeah, If I go back three 0:57:12.640 --> 0:57:18.560 years ago to twenty twenty three, it was one hundred 0:57:18.960 --> 0:57:24.000 crusties and anarchists and Quakers and Sikhs who were feeding 0:57:24.040 --> 0:57:27.280 thousands of people in the desert, right and in a 0:57:27.360 --> 0:57:30.160 big city metro area of three million people forty five 0:57:30.160 --> 0:57:32.800 minutes away. People didn't believe me when I told them 0:57:32.800 --> 0:57:35.960 it was happening, because nobody gave a shit, to include 0:57:35.960 --> 0:57:38.680 the local media. Then I was in La right in 0:57:38.760 --> 0:57:41.439 summer this year, and there were young folks there who 0:57:41.440 --> 0:57:44.440 were mad as hell and not going to take it anymore, right, 0:57:45.080 --> 0:57:47.520 and did really inspire instud really inspiring stuff and very 0:57:47.520 --> 0:57:49.400 brave stuff. And so many of them were those kids 0:57:49.400 --> 0:57:51.320 who are in that situation where they are citizens and 0:57:51.320 --> 0:57:54.200 their parents are not. Yeah, and they believe in the 0:57:54.320 --> 0:57:56.160 right to a freedom of expression of speech, and they 0:57:56.160 --> 0:57:56.760 came to use it. 0:57:56.840 --> 0:57:57.040 Right. 0:57:58.200 --> 0:58:01.320 But I could walk five blocks from there and it 0:58:01.320 --> 0:58:01.720 could have. 0:58:01.680 --> 0:58:04.560 Been any other day in La right. Yeah. 0:58:04.600 --> 0:58:07.000 I went to a fancy coffee shop. I overpaid for 0:58:07.120 --> 0:58:08.240 coffee because. 0:58:08.000 --> 0:58:09.680 The white people didn't give a shit. I mean, or 0:58:09.680 --> 0:58:12.240 if you didn't for the most part. No, you're right, 0:58:12.400 --> 0:58:12.760 could have been. 0:58:12.800 --> 0:58:14.680 They cared. I think they cared. A lot of people say, oh, 0:58:14.680 --> 0:58:18.160 it's terrible was happening. Yeah, but you know, some people 0:58:18.240 --> 0:58:20.720 spoke to me about their film script. We say, lay write, 0:58:20.720 --> 0:58:24.120 that's a given. But it did not feel like the 0:58:24.120 --> 0:58:25.480 city was locked in. 0:58:25.880 --> 0:58:27.960 This feels different to that. 0:58:28.320 --> 0:58:32.640 Yeah, it feels more locked in than it even felt 0:58:32.680 --> 0:58:37.840 in twenty twenty. Yeah, because everybody's fesis is an external thing. 0:58:38.320 --> 0:58:42.600 Yeah, but do you know what doesn't like doing transitions 0:58:42.680 --> 0:58:45.040 right now? It's me. I don't actually like doing it, 0:58:45.080 --> 0:58:55.760 but that is my job. And here's a maths and 0:58:55.840 --> 0:59:01.080 we're back. The external threat part is really fascinating and 0:59:01.240 --> 0:59:03.400 is like a key to a lot of this. I believe, 0:59:03.760 --> 0:59:06.320 you know, the difference between the tone of twenty twenty, 0:59:06.360 --> 0:59:09.760 where it was this nationwide internal threat. This is still 0:59:09.840 --> 0:59:12.800 absolutely present, right, is absolutely all of the problems from 0:59:12.840 --> 0:59:18.160 twenty twenty, yeah are still here. Yeah, earlier today and 0:59:18.680 --> 0:59:22.920 we watched them arrest a lawyer. Yeah, and we'll get 0:59:22.960 --> 0:59:26.600 to that. But the thing I've been thinking about is 0:59:26.640 --> 0:59:28.800 that in protest movements you often say things like oh, 0:59:28.800 --> 0:59:31.720 what radicalized you? Or I got radicalized by this, or yeah, 0:59:32.600 --> 0:59:39.760 this isn't radical, even though it's higher stakes, more risk, like, yeah, 0:59:39.840 --> 0:59:42.760 it's not radical to say, Man, I don't think you 0:59:42.760 --> 0:59:46.840 should kidnap literal children, you know, I don't think it's normal. 0:59:47.160 --> 0:59:49.840 Yeah, Like, which is why very normal people are very 0:59:49.880 --> 0:59:50.480 pissed off. 0:59:50.600 --> 0:59:52.600 Yeah, and like and one of the things has come 0:59:52.640 --> 0:59:56.280 up from multiple people, you know, and and the internet 0:59:56.280 --> 0:59:58.320 commenters will say, well, then why they vote this way? 0:59:58.880 --> 1:00:02.440 And that's just a that doesn't get us anywhere. Yeah, 1:00:02.480 --> 1:00:04.720 what the fuck are you doing? Yeah, we've talked to 1:00:04.760 --> 1:00:07.280 a bunch of people who are like, oh, yeah, that 1:00:07.320 --> 1:00:11.960 Republican business has closed for the general strike. Or my 1:00:12.120 --> 1:00:15.840 neighbor who is very conservative, is pissed as hell. 1:00:16.160 --> 1:00:18.000 Yeah I saw a sign today and we'll get to 1:00:18.000 --> 1:00:21.240 the big protest. I sorry, what would Ronald Reagan do? 1:00:21.840 --> 1:00:22.120 Yeah? 1:00:22.680 --> 1:00:26.320 The person right, So this person has not just thought that. Yeah, 1:00:26.400 --> 1:00:29.080 they have got out their pens and paper and their 1:00:29.080 --> 1:00:32.320 crafting supplies. They've made that sign, They've got their ass 1:00:32.360 --> 1:00:34.919 down to the middle of town and it is minus ten, 1:00:35.040 --> 1:00:37.640 minus fifteen, and they are out and about with their 1:00:37.680 --> 1:00:39.880 what would Ronald Reagan sign, right, because they have that 1:00:40.000 --> 1:00:40.960 pissed off and. 1:00:40.840 --> 1:00:44.320 No one's mad at them. Yeah, because at a certain 1:00:44.400 --> 1:00:49.200 point it doesn't matter. Yeah, rather they were here. Yeah, 1:00:49.240 --> 1:00:51.600 like exactly, And like the thing I've been thinking about 1:00:51.600 --> 1:00:55.120 a lot is that glad you're here gets so much 1:00:55.200 --> 1:00:59.520 further than what took you so long. Yeah, and they're 1:00:59.560 --> 1:01:03.040 just is a line the federal government has crossed it. 1:01:03.480 --> 1:01:06.720 And the more people who are aware of that, the better. 1:01:07.440 --> 1:01:11.120 Yeah. I think it's really important that part of the 1:01:11.200 --> 1:01:14.920 organizing here has been so wide and so inclusive and 1:01:15.000 --> 1:01:16.280 so broad and. 1:01:16.280 --> 1:01:17.600 Yet so focused. Right. 1:01:17.680 --> 1:01:20.440 Yeah, it's so focused on keeping their neighbors safe. And 1:01:20.480 --> 1:01:23.480 that's it can be so broad because most people think 1:01:23.560 --> 1:01:26.760 that's the right thing to do. That is what is 1:01:26.800 --> 1:01:29.960 allowing them to do this right now. Yeah, And it 1:01:30.000 --> 1:01:33.040 doesn't matter where someone was yesterday or in November of 1:01:33.040 --> 1:01:35.560 twenty twenty four, if they're on a street corner today 1:01:35.600 --> 1:01:36.800 looking out for their neighbors. 1:01:37.320 --> 1:01:39.400 And I'll say that I'm not going to name them, 1:01:39.720 --> 1:01:42.200 but to shout out part of the reason I'm here 1:01:42.400 --> 1:01:45.640 is that like someone I know who I don't know, 1:01:45.720 --> 1:01:47.920 if they have a political ideology to their name, just 1:01:49.040 --> 1:01:52.200 you know, a young queer person I know was talking 1:01:52.200 --> 1:01:54.480 to them a couple of weeks ago, and they were 1:01:54.520 --> 1:01:58.360 telling me about how, you know, I didn't understand the 1:01:58.440 --> 1:02:01.120 scope of the rapid response networks, but it's hard to 1:02:01.160 --> 1:02:02.080 see from outside. 1:02:02.200 --> 1:02:05.320 Yes, yeah, yeah, and necessarily it's something that people don't 1:02:05.320 --> 1:02:07.000 always talk about to everyone, right. 1:02:07.000 --> 1:02:09.800 Right, totally, And so, you know, talking to this person 1:02:09.840 --> 1:02:13.480 and they're like, oh, earlier today, I you know, went 1:02:13.520 --> 1:02:15.400 and stood in front of apartment building because of ICE. 1:02:15.440 --> 1:02:17.640 And I was like, your apartment building and They're like, no, 1:02:17.760 --> 1:02:21.640 about a block away, and I'm like okay, and they're like, yeah, 1:02:21.640 --> 1:02:22.880 I just want to go stand out front to make 1:02:22.920 --> 1:02:27.280 sure ICE didn't get in. And I'm like, okay, I 1:02:27.280 --> 1:02:29.320 don't quite understand, you know. And then they're like, oh yeah, 1:02:29.320 --> 1:02:31.680 and I you know, I go to the hotels where 1:02:31.680 --> 1:02:33.720 Ice are at and me and my friends sit there 1:02:33.760 --> 1:02:36.080 and write down license plates and and I'm just like, 1:02:36.240 --> 1:02:39.160 and I'm imagining this is just like an activity they're doing. 1:02:40.160 --> 1:02:43.800 I don't quite understand, you know, But I'm like, why 1:02:43.800 --> 1:02:44.480 are you doing it? 1:02:44.600 --> 1:02:44.760 Right? 1:02:44.800 --> 1:02:47.240 And not that not that it's a it's an obvious 1:02:47.280 --> 1:02:50.000 answer on some level, but they're like because I told 1:02:50.000 --> 1:02:53.080 myself I was someone who would do it's right. Yeah, 1:02:53.120 --> 1:02:56.960 and I think that in all of our hearts, we 1:02:57.080 --> 1:03:00.360 tell ourselves that when it comes down to it, we 1:03:00.480 --> 1:03:02.439 do it's right. And like, you know, people like talking 1:03:02.440 --> 1:03:04.880 about like comparisons between now in Nazi Germany and the 1:03:04.960 --> 1:03:07.000 rise of fascism, and they're like, you know, there's the 1:03:07.320 --> 1:03:10.360 meme about like how on end and up fascists if 1:03:10.360 --> 1:03:13.600 you're failing an open note test? Yeah, yeah, you know, 1:03:14.320 --> 1:03:16.480 but Minneapolis doesn't fail in the open note test. 1:03:16.960 --> 1:03:21.640 Yeah, yeah, they are passing with flying colors, right, Like yeah, 1:03:21.760 --> 1:03:23.600 I mean yeah, I think you know you and I 1:03:23.600 --> 1:03:28.280 have both history appreciators, and history has taught us a lot, right, 1:03:28.320 --> 1:03:30.919 the big coalitions do better than small one or ones 1:03:30.960 --> 1:03:34.880 a fracturing tow a million pieces that like, leadership isn't 1:03:34.880 --> 1:03:38.880 what we need. Participation is what we need. Yeah, and yeah, 1:03:38.960 --> 1:03:40.760 you see a lot of it in action here. And 1:03:40.840 --> 1:03:43.480 like all of us, right, like anyone who's spent any 1:03:43.560 --> 1:03:49.480 time reading, writing, learning, listening to history whatever sort, what 1:03:49.560 --> 1:03:53.200 would I do? We're finding out is that yeah, we're 1:03:53.200 --> 1:03:54.800 not learning at having thought what would I do? And 1:03:54.840 --> 1:03:57.240 most people have said, well, I wouldn't be one of 1:03:57.280 --> 1:04:00.160 the ones who did something. Yeah, so they're doing something. 1:04:00.760 --> 1:04:05.640 Yeah, And I think about maybe my last thought for 1:04:06.080 --> 1:04:10.080 today is that when ice abducts people, which they do 1:04:10.160 --> 1:04:13.200 every day, Yeah, did they just disappear people? Right? They 1:04:13.240 --> 1:04:16.080 just show up? They pull someone over literally just for 1:04:16.160 --> 1:04:20.240 being brown, to be really transparent. Yeah, Like the the 1:04:20.320 --> 1:04:22.560 police have come out and been like, could you please 1:04:22.560 --> 1:04:25.919 stop pulling over all of the brown cops? Yeah? Right, yeah. 1:04:26.120 --> 1:04:31.600 Like and when they when they pull someone over, they 1:04:31.720 --> 1:04:35.680 just take them and they leave the car, sometimes running, 1:04:35.960 --> 1:04:41.880 sometimes in drive, yeah, and just drive away. And I 1:04:41.920 --> 1:04:43.800 was like, are we walking into a ghost town? Right? 1:04:43.800 --> 1:04:45.800 Are we going to see this everywhere? And like, in 1:04:46.480 --> 1:04:48.400 my three days here, I haven't seen the abandoned vehicle 1:04:48.440 --> 1:04:52.160 except the ice abandoned vehicle that get crashed. But it 1:04:52.240 --> 1:04:54.320 is happening every day, and we have talked to people 1:04:54.360 --> 1:04:59.280 who see it every day. And a very common activity 1:04:59.440 --> 1:05:06.200 is the ghastly approaching an abandoned vehicle abandons though the 1:05:06.440 --> 1:05:11.480 vehicle that has been has been stolen, and trying to 1:05:11.480 --> 1:05:14.440 figure out who the fuck it was, and going through 1:05:15.680 --> 1:05:21.320 and finding the information to contact people's loved ones and 1:05:21.440 --> 1:05:26.280 say like, hey, your your wife has been stolen. Yeah, 1:05:26.360 --> 1:05:29.400 you know, and like and that, and we were talking 1:05:29.440 --> 1:05:33.440 to you know, a decent number of the people that 1:05:33.480 --> 1:05:36.880 we talked to about this were Jewish, and they're you know, 1:05:37.000 --> 1:05:42.160 talking about like this is what my family told me about. Yeah, 1:05:42.200 --> 1:05:44.959 you know, and like that was one of the first 1:05:45.000 --> 1:05:47.000 things that someone told me that really made me cry. 1:05:48.400 --> 1:05:52.600 This whole thing has been like really challenging all my 1:05:53.520 --> 1:05:58.840 cynicism and detached us from from hard things. But hearing 1:05:58.840 --> 1:06:02.400 those stories and then just seeing the people who do that, 1:06:03.040 --> 1:06:08.960 which could be anybody. Yeah, because people step up. It's 1:06:09.080 --> 1:06:15.200 a god I just I say, I can only imagine it, 1:06:15.640 --> 1:06:18.360 you know, but it like that is a daily reality. 1:06:18.400 --> 1:06:23.720 Here is someone was just stolen. Yeah, a person was 1:06:23.880 --> 1:06:26.520 just stolen, and I have to go through their effects 1:06:27.080 --> 1:06:30.080 to figure out who they were. Yeah. 1:06:30.200 --> 1:06:32.360 I guess when we were speaking about that, I was 1:06:32.360 --> 1:06:34.480 thinking about experiences I've had in the desert right where 1:06:34.480 --> 1:06:37.440 you find someone's bag, Yeah, as they're walking through and 1:06:37.480 --> 1:06:39.440 it's got too hot, they've taken off their bag, and 1:06:39.480 --> 1:06:42.200 you go through all the little ephemera, the little things 1:06:42.200 --> 1:06:46.360 that people thought were worth carrying across the world, and 1:06:46.880 --> 1:06:49.000 you try to piece together their life and work out 1:06:49.000 --> 1:06:51.320 who they are, and you look at picture of their children, 1:06:51.360 --> 1:06:53.320 and you look at picture through their spouse and their home, 1:06:53.400 --> 1:06:58.560 and you hope that they're okay, right, And in this instance, 1:06:59.240 --> 1:07:03.080 they're not right. And it's not the abstract violence of 1:07:03.160 --> 1:07:05.600 the structures of borders and walls and surveillances that have 1:07:05.640 --> 1:07:09.040 killed them or taken them. In this instance, right, it's 1:07:09.080 --> 1:07:11.960 five people in masks in a car over there, and 1:07:12.000 --> 1:07:14.120 it's happening in the middle of cities where people can 1:07:14.160 --> 1:07:14.400 see it. 1:07:14.480 --> 1:07:14.600 Right. 1:07:14.680 --> 1:07:16.280 Part of the function of the border is to take 1:07:16.280 --> 1:07:19.080 the violence away from where people can see it. And 1:07:19.120 --> 1:07:21.640 they got away with that for so long that they 1:07:21.760 --> 1:07:24.360 figured they could just bring it into cities. And it 1:07:24.520 --> 1:07:28.480 makes my heart so proud that when people could see it, 1:07:28.520 --> 1:07:31.120 they said, fuck, no, you're not doing this in my town. 1:07:31.920 --> 1:07:36.000 Because for so long I've believed that if people could, 1:07:36.400 --> 1:07:39.640 Like the reason I'm a journalist, right, the reason that 1:07:39.760 --> 1:07:43.000 I have spent the better part of ten years I'm 1:07:43.280 --> 1:07:46.640 like receiving trauma is because I really believe in my 1:07:46.680 --> 1:07:49.240 heart that people could if people could see the cruelty, 1:07:49.320 --> 1:07:52.480 they would care and they would do something. Yeah, And 1:07:53.040 --> 1:07:55.520 like this confirms that for me, Right, people can see 1:07:55.560 --> 1:07:58.919 it and they have cared and they have done something amazing, right, 1:07:59.040 --> 1:08:01.520 and that makes me so proud of them. 1:08:02.160 --> 1:08:07.400 Yeah. The paradise built in hell, this soulment put it. 1:08:08.040 --> 1:08:15.120 You know, people are finding community and a really active 1:08:15.160 --> 1:08:18.360 way and learning what people can do for each other 1:08:18.720 --> 1:08:21.040 and the levels in which people are plugging in. You know, 1:08:21.080 --> 1:08:24.240 there's the whole long standing cliche that for every front 1:08:24.240 --> 1:08:27.040 line access, there's ten support people. Yeah, and you're like, 1:08:27.479 --> 1:08:32.000 well here, it's those lines aren't so clearly delineated because 1:08:32.600 --> 1:08:35.080 on some level, you know, we've talked to people who 1:08:35.120 --> 1:08:38.680 have been like, oh my my neighbor who you know 1:08:38.720 --> 1:08:41.439 has so many mobility issues that they can't leave their house. Yeah, 1:08:41.560 --> 1:08:42.800 they're just hanging on the front porch. 1:08:43.479 --> 1:08:47.280 Yeah, on the front line. Yeah, exactly, because the front 1:08:47.320 --> 1:08:47.920 line comes to you. 1:08:48.240 --> 1:08:51.200 Yeah. Like we talked to someone earlier who was pepper 1:08:51.200 --> 1:08:54.040 spray this morning while walking their dog. Yeah, you know, 1:08:54.280 --> 1:09:00.240 because while walking their dog they witnessed masked agent. It's 1:09:01.360 --> 1:09:06.960 stealing a person. Yeah, well I'm about do it for 1:09:07.320 --> 1:09:12.719 part one if it could cool people here. M hmm, 1:09:13.120 --> 1:09:16.519 And uh, we'll be back on Wednesday or whenever. It 1:09:16.680 --> 1:09:18.200 We actually don't know what the scheduling is going to 1:09:18.240 --> 1:09:20.400 be of this particular episode. Yeah, we'll be back. 1:09:20.320 --> 1:09:23.040 In the subsequent episode of the podcast video listening to you. 1:09:23.200 --> 1:09:29.240 That's right, that's right, and yeah, you're gonna final Let 1:09:29.280 --> 1:09:29.800 me say this, right. 1:09:31.000 --> 1:09:33.559 I was really sad when I came here because my 1:09:33.600 --> 1:09:37.600 friends were dying Reshaba. Yeah, and I wish I was 1:09:37.640 --> 1:09:42.479 with them in a strange way, Yeah, because I know 1:09:42.600 --> 1:09:45.720 the sense of togetherness they feel and I felt that 1:09:45.800 --> 1:09:49.120 here and that was really special for me because I 1:09:49.120 --> 1:09:52.040 would struggle to be dealing with this alone. 1:09:52.880 --> 1:09:55.479 Yeah, and we're gonna we're gonna talk a bit more 1:09:55.479 --> 1:09:59.200 about rapid response stuff. And there's also just a point 1:09:59.240 --> 1:10:02.400 some articles people. There's a series of articles that came 1:10:02.400 --> 1:10:05.960 out from crimethink, which is crimethink dot com that have 1:10:06.080 --> 1:10:08.920 talked about some of the structures of rapid response networks. 1:10:08.960 --> 1:10:12.280 And people here are putting together a lot of resources 1:10:12.320 --> 1:10:15.000 about what they have and haven't learned. And we're going 1:10:15.080 --> 1:10:17.880 to be talking about some of those things that people 1:10:17.920 --> 1:10:21.200 have learned and things like that. But it's really worth 1:10:21.400 --> 1:10:25.639 understanding wherever you are because you're also that person who 1:10:25.680 --> 1:10:27.240 can hang out on your front porch. I mean not 1:10:27.240 --> 1:10:29.360 necessarily literally you hang out on your front porch. But 1:10:29.400 --> 1:10:34.040 it's like the idea is when the entire city mobilizes, 1:10:35.120 --> 1:10:39.519 it works. And I think that when we realize that 1:10:39.600 --> 1:10:45.679 we can mobilize the entire country, it works. That's my theory. Yeah, 1:10:45.960 --> 1:10:46.880 see you all soon. 1:10:47.439 --> 1:10:51.439 Hi, friends, it's me James. I'm back and I'm back 1:10:51.520 --> 1:10:53.639 because we ask some people on the ground if they 1:10:53.680 --> 1:10:57.200 could provide us with some links to places where people 1:10:57.200 --> 1:10:59.639 could donate that have been vetted that they knew would 1:10:59.640 --> 1:11:02.599 be going to people helping people on the ground, and 1:11:02.720 --> 1:11:05.439 they provided us with a lot of different links. So 1:11:05.479 --> 1:11:07.400 I'm going to tell you what each of these links are, 1:11:07.479 --> 1:11:11.080 and if you'd like to donate, you can just scroll 1:11:11.160 --> 1:11:13.639 on down whichever app you're using to the podcast show 1:11:13.640 --> 1:11:16.240 notes and you can click one of the one of 1:11:16.240 --> 1:11:19.400 the links below. So there's rent support for neighbors in Phillips, 1:11:19.439 --> 1:11:22.639 rent support for neighbors in Central, rent support for neighbors 1:11:22.640 --> 1:11:27.280 in Powderhorn, supplies for political art making, protective gear for 1:11:27.400 --> 1:11:32.040 legal observers, diapers and menstrual supplies. There are Abolish iced 1:11:32.080 --> 1:11:35.480 T shirts that you can purchase. There is a fundraiser 1:11:35.479 --> 1:11:38.679 for north Star Frontline Street Medics and the Twin Cities 1:11:38.720 --> 1:11:41.719 Swirlitariat bail fund. There are links for both of Venmo 1:11:41.920 --> 1:11:59.200 and cash app donation there. Hi, friends, it's me James, 1:11:59.240 --> 1:12:02.200 and I just wanted to explain as you're listening to this. 1:12:02.479 --> 1:12:07.639 We recorded this around midnight on Friday, after having spent 1:12:08.320 --> 1:12:11.800 I think three days four nights in Minneapolis, and the 1:12:11.840 --> 1:12:16.240 tone of what we recorded here is hopeful. I remain 1:12:16.439 --> 1:12:19.360 hopeful and inspired by the people we met in Minneapolis, 1:12:19.360 --> 1:12:22.320 and I remained so proud of everything they've done. But 1:12:22.680 --> 1:12:25.559 about nine hours after we sent this off to our editors, 1:12:25.840 --> 1:12:30.680 Alex Pretty was killed by two Border Patrol agents. And 1:12:31.840 --> 1:12:34.800 the tone of this would have been different if we 1:12:34.880 --> 1:12:38.599 had recorded after that, And that's just the nature of 1:12:38.760 --> 1:12:42.040 the work we do. But we don't want anything in 1:12:42.120 --> 1:12:44.559 the hopeful tone here to suggest that we don't grieve 1:12:44.600 --> 1:12:47.120 his passing, that we aren't thinking of the people who 1:12:47.160 --> 1:12:49.479 loved him right now, because we understand that they're going 1:12:49.479 --> 1:12:53.040 through a very difficult time. But we still want you 1:12:53.120 --> 1:12:55.559 to learn from what's happening in Minneapolis and from what 1:12:55.600 --> 1:12:59.240 people are doing there, and we hope that you remember 1:12:59.240 --> 1:13:00.200 that as you literally say. 1:13:00.760 --> 1:13:03.439 And I think that honestly, those two things that we 1:13:03.680 --> 1:13:06.400 have to balance just as we deal with the state 1:13:06.439 --> 1:13:08.800 of the world. Is just you know, everyone we talked 1:13:08.840 --> 1:13:11.679 to this is so present on their minds. Is both 1:13:12.240 --> 1:13:15.840 an awareness of the beauty of the things that they 1:13:15.880 --> 1:13:19.400 are building and also an awareness of the darkness that 1:13:19.400 --> 1:13:22.479 has caused them to need to build these things. But anyway, 1:13:22.520 --> 1:13:25.320 we hope you enjoy these episodes and are following more 1:13:25.360 --> 1:13:28.200 closely with more current news about what's happening, and are 1:13:28.240 --> 1:13:32.040 talking to the people around you wherever you are about 1:13:32.080 --> 1:13:37.960 how you will keep yourself and your neighbors safe and yep, 1:13:38.320 --> 1:13:38.680 thank you. 1:13:43.840 --> 1:13:50.480 Hello, and welcome to Cool People Could Happen Here podcast, 1:13:51.080 --> 1:13:53.840 which is what happens when two podcasts love each other 1:13:54.120 --> 1:13:59.160 and go to Minneapolis go on a trip to Minneapolis 1:13:59.200 --> 1:14:02.720 in the winter, where it is called I am one 1:14:02.760 --> 1:14:06.000 of your hosts today. My name is James Stout, and 1:14:06.080 --> 1:14:08.000 I am very lucky to be joined by my friend 1:14:08.000 --> 1:14:08.839 Margaret Kiljoy. 1:14:09.439 --> 1:14:14.160 Hello, welcome to the thing that we're doing. Should we 1:14:14.160 --> 1:14:17.519 talking about today? We talked last time about some rapid 1:14:17.560 --> 1:14:19.439 response to mutual a and there's more to be said 1:14:19.439 --> 1:14:19.760 about that. 1:14:19.960 --> 1:14:22.639 Yeah, today is the twenty third. 1:14:22.920 --> 1:14:24.920 Yeah, it's the past for you all. 1:14:25.040 --> 1:14:25.360 M M. 1:14:25.600 --> 1:14:28.800 But it's present for us. Yeah, it's amazing our podcasting 1:14:28.840 --> 1:14:29.439 work like that. 1:14:29.600 --> 1:14:33.920 Today was the second realish, real general strike I've been 1:14:33.920 --> 1:14:37.160 to in my life. Yeah. First one was in Oakland 1:14:37.280 --> 1:14:40.080 during Occupy Okay, so they pulled off a pretty serious 1:14:40.439 --> 1:14:43.479 general strike. Thousands of US shut down the ports. It 1:14:43.560 --> 1:14:46.880 was really beautiful. But yeah, that was poss Today. 1:14:47.040 --> 1:14:49.519 No one I had to shut shit down really, with 1:14:49.560 --> 1:14:51.880 the exception of the Federal building, which we will discuss. Yeah, 1:14:51.960 --> 1:14:54.200 it's been remarkable. We've been here, it's Tuesday, it's Friday. 1:14:54.800 --> 1:14:58.760 How just the momentum has grown. Like seeing we went 1:14:58.800 --> 1:15:00.720 past someplace I think it was like a place of 1:15:00.840 --> 1:15:03.880 repaired like electronics of some description. They just had a 1:15:03.920 --> 1:15:07.840 little thing being like attention, we're not opening on Friday, 1:15:08.280 --> 1:15:12.000 Like yeah, it's these businesses which have no reason, you know, 1:15:12.080 --> 1:15:16.000 like these outward facing reasons too. You know, it's not 1:15:16.000 --> 1:15:18.080 even businesses which rely on the community for business and 1:15:18.160 --> 1:15:20.000 have to signal the community that they're with them, right, 1:15:20.000 --> 1:15:23.160 it's just people who are being like yeah, nah, no, 1:15:23.400 --> 1:15:26.920 you know, like that seems shut. Yeah, let's we got 1:15:26.960 --> 1:15:30.679 to do something. Let's all close down and go protest. 1:15:31.120 --> 1:15:33.799 One thing that I was sent and share this with you, Margaret. 1:15:34.200 --> 1:15:37.720 Some unkind was a list of businesses that are like, yo, 1:15:38.080 --> 1:15:41.480 we will not be participating in like profit making today, 1:15:41.520 --> 1:15:43.760 but if you need X, that's what we do. 1:15:43.880 --> 1:15:44.240 Come by. 1:15:44.479 --> 1:15:47.280 Yeah, Like if you know, if you're hungry, if you're cold, 1:15:47.280 --> 1:15:49.400 if you need a cup of coffee, what if you 1:15:49.400 --> 1:15:52.400 need a bicycle fix whatever it is, like if you 1:15:52.439 --> 1:15:55.640 want to screenprint abolish ice on a shirt, swing my 1:15:56.040 --> 1:15:58.360 Like we'll just be opened up for the community. Comes 1:15:58.400 --> 1:16:00.800 a high like we don't want your mind, we just 1:16:00.840 --> 1:16:03.120 want your solularity. Like I thought that was cool. 1:16:03.240 --> 1:16:04.840 And on some level it's been happening for a while 1:16:04.840 --> 1:16:06.840 to like to talk talk about how yesterday we went 1:16:06.840 --> 1:16:09.919 to power out Grounds. Yeah right, there is an indigenous 1:16:09.920 --> 1:16:12.839 own coffee shop called power Grounds. They're actually worth donating 1:16:12.880 --> 1:16:15.400 directly too because of their mutual aid projects. That will 1:16:15.439 --> 1:16:17.280 probably be in the list of things that we include. 1:16:17.800 --> 1:16:21.040 And you go in and the coffee is free now, 1:16:21.560 --> 1:16:23.320 and you know, we were like, well, we want to 1:16:23.320 --> 1:16:24.559 pay you for tea, and they were like, you can 1:16:24.560 --> 1:16:25.200 pay us for tea. 1:16:25.320 --> 1:16:28.320 Yeah, And we were able to like put some money 1:16:28.320 --> 1:16:29.920 behind in case someone else came in and need. 1:16:29.840 --> 1:16:33.799 Right, But the entire space has been taken over by 1:16:34.040 --> 1:16:37.920 a mutual aid organization. Yeah, and it's you know, Indigenous run. 1:16:38.040 --> 1:16:43.160 We talked to someone from AIM American Indian Movement about 1:16:43.600 --> 1:16:46.800 the work they've been doing there, and you know, which 1:16:46.840 --> 1:16:49.439 is that they've been you know, basically just turning it 1:16:49.520 --> 1:16:52.719 into like making sure everyone has everything they need. Yeah. 1:16:52.960 --> 1:16:55.760 By creating these places that are good to hang out in, 1:16:56.840 --> 1:16:59.360 you make really good rapid response places. 1:16:59.479 --> 1:16:59.679 Yeah. 1:17:00.160 --> 1:17:01.920 You know, this is the first person we heard from 1:17:01.920 --> 1:17:03.720 about just like I was like, how does this work? 1:17:03.760 --> 1:17:05.120 How does the rap response work? And I was like, Oh, 1:17:05.160 --> 1:17:06.360 there's more of us than there are them. 1:17:07.320 --> 1:17:10.240 Yeah, yeah, we shun keep showing up. 1:17:10.320 --> 1:17:13.000 Like and uh yeah, so like you know, people are 1:17:13.560 --> 1:17:16.160 people are hanging out there and so you know, and 1:17:16.200 --> 1:17:18.040 it's it's right in a place where Ice likes to 1:17:18.040 --> 1:17:19.360 fuck with people. Yeah. 1:17:19.560 --> 1:17:22.760 Well it's like for people who aren't familiar with that block, right, Like, 1:17:22.800 --> 1:17:25.160 I've read a lot about AIM. It's I'm interesting like 1:17:25.160 --> 1:17:28.120 that Franklin Avenue. I believe it's where AIM began. 1:17:28.280 --> 1:17:30.559 Right, Well, that's an understanding with Community Watch, which is 1:17:30.560 --> 1:17:31.320 what's happening now. 1:17:31.479 --> 1:17:34.000 Exactly, was doing patrols to keep their community safe. 1:17:34.040 --> 1:17:34.320 Yeah. 1:17:34.400 --> 1:17:37.600 So it's a cool little full circle movement. So this 1:17:37.680 --> 1:17:40.920 is a space which is obviously designed to like center 1:17:40.960 --> 1:17:43.519 and protect indigenous folks. Yeah, but they were just like, yeah, 1:17:43.520 --> 1:17:45.720 anyone who's out there doing the work, please come by. 1:17:45.800 --> 1:17:49.400 We got snack packs for you because we made We've 1:17:49.439 --> 1:17:51.680 got four different soups, got a vegan soup, we got 1:17:51.680 --> 1:17:55.240 a gluten free soup. Like, like, they were more than 1:17:55.280 --> 1:17:56.559 happy for folks to come by. 1:17:56.680 --> 1:18:01.280 Get fed, Yeah, gett warm. Yeah, big big thing here, people, 1:18:01.640 --> 1:18:04.519 you know, sort of make light of. You know, there's 1:18:04.520 --> 1:18:06.720 the whole quip that really works on me, which is 1:18:06.760 --> 1:18:10.160 the like Ice made the classic Nazi mistake they invaded 1:18:10.160 --> 1:18:13.360 a winter people in winter, and that's true. But it 1:18:13.439 --> 1:18:14.960 is exceptionally cold right now. 1:18:15.040 --> 1:18:18.000 Yeah, Like we last night, I think, due to an 1:18:18.080 --> 1:18:19.960 error on my part, were locked out of the place 1:18:20.000 --> 1:18:22.000 we are staying. Yeah, I think it's fairly clear that 1:18:22.000 --> 1:18:25.640 I fucked up there. Yeh, that's fine. It becomes a 1:18:25.720 --> 1:18:28.320 risk to your well being pretty quickly. Yeah, to put 1:18:28.360 --> 1:18:31.360 it in another way, how cold it is today. I 1:18:31.400 --> 1:18:35.040 took the battery out of Margaret's vehicle and blue hot 1:18:35.080 --> 1:18:38.479 air from a head dryer on it. Sometime so we 1:18:38.560 --> 1:18:39.759 could try and start it. 1:18:39.640 --> 1:18:43.200 So a jump would work, because yeah, a jump wouldn't 1:18:43.240 --> 1:18:45.719 work without also heating up for the battery. 1:18:45.800 --> 1:18:48.000 Yeah, the battery didn't have enough coal cranking. 1:18:47.920 --> 1:18:51.719 Yeah to get Yeah, despite being a brand new battery. 1:18:51.880 --> 1:18:54.160 Yeah, you need different tires for your truck, You need 1:18:54.160 --> 1:18:57.280 different oil for your vehicle, You need your battery to 1:18:57.320 --> 1:18:57.759 be warm. 1:18:57.960 --> 1:19:01.759 Yeah, people have engine block. Heater is for gas engines. 1:19:01.840 --> 1:19:04.599 I don't even have a diesel. Okay. So this morning 1:19:05.280 --> 1:19:07.120 we knew as the general strike. We went and got 1:19:07.200 --> 1:19:09.519 enough supplies to have enough food without having to go 1:19:09.600 --> 1:19:12.760 shopping today. And you know, we get up and we 1:19:12.840 --> 1:19:14.679 knew that there was going to be a direct action 1:19:14.800 --> 1:19:18.599 this morning at the Whipple building. And the Whipple Building 1:19:19.560 --> 1:19:22.240 is Oh, I wish once, once this whole thing is scripted, 1:19:22.240 --> 1:19:24.240 you will understand all this better. But there is a 1:19:24.280 --> 1:19:26.800 building that used to be a fort. And it was 1:19:26.840 --> 1:19:30.760 a fort in ye oldie even more murder of indigenous 1:19:30.760 --> 1:19:33.920 people times. And it was the fort from which they 1:19:33.920 --> 1:19:37.280 would go out and capture people. Yeah, and that is 1:19:37.320 --> 1:19:39.360 what it is again. It is the center of the 1:19:39.400 --> 1:19:43.439 ice operations here. It is where everyone has taken both 1:19:43.439 --> 1:19:47.720 citizen and non citizen for processing, and there's like one 1:19:47.760 --> 1:19:50.040 way in and one way out, and there have been 1:19:50.040 --> 1:19:51.800 people I keep talking about we were talking about this 1:19:51.840 --> 1:19:55.400 hyper local rapid response. Yeah, there's been people at the 1:19:55.439 --> 1:19:58.439 Whipple building, at this wrap of a place with one 1:19:58.479 --> 1:19:59.400 way in and one way out. 1:19:59.800 --> 1:20:01.599 These places a fortress ass building. 1:20:01.720 --> 1:20:03.920 Yeah, right where it's really easy to kidnap people because 1:20:03.920 --> 1:20:06.640 the kidnap place is right there. Yeah, there have been 1:20:06.640 --> 1:20:10.040 people there are basically every day. Yeah, and like just 1:20:10.200 --> 1:20:12.479 blatantly being like we are here to track you all 1:20:12.680 --> 1:20:15.360 anti ice people have been there every day. Yeah. So 1:20:15.360 --> 1:20:18.439 there was a call to go to it this morning 1:20:18.840 --> 1:20:23.280 and so we did and you know as press. Yeah, 1:20:23.360 --> 1:20:26.400 and he did not get there on time because my 1:20:26.840 --> 1:20:31.880 car absolutely that start. Yeah yeah, but multiple people came 1:20:31.920 --> 1:20:32.840 to rescue us. 1:20:33.080 --> 1:20:33.280 Yeah. 1:20:33.320 --> 1:20:37.160 Yeah, like multiple people showed up to help out of 1:20:37.200 --> 1:20:40.920 towners who aren't even core of were We weren't there 1:20:40.920 --> 1:20:43.679 to get stuff done. We're just here to talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. 1:20:43.800 --> 1:20:45.760 Like someone came to or for us to jump. Someone 1:20:45.800 --> 1:20:47.720 else was like, hey, did you get a jump? Yes, 1:20:48.080 --> 1:20:49.640 someone was like do you want to ride? Do you 1:20:49.680 --> 1:20:50.839 need to borrow my vehicle? 1:20:50.960 --> 1:20:55.040 Yeah? And these weren't people we known very long. 1:20:55.080 --> 1:20:57.799 But yeah, the longest we've known these people was since Tuesday. 1:20:57.840 --> 1:21:01.200 It's Friday, and so people come up, get the vehicle working, 1:21:01.320 --> 1:21:04.040 we drive there, and the whole time both of us 1:21:04.080 --> 1:21:09.120 are moderately outdoorsy people, right, put it mildly in your 1:21:09.160 --> 1:21:11.519 case and to be accurate in my case. Yeah, Like, 1:21:12.120 --> 1:21:13.720 and we spent the whole time be like do we 1:21:13.760 --> 1:21:16.160 have enough gear? Yeah? Do we have enough winter gear? 1:21:16.240 --> 1:21:18.120 You know we both have these new insulated boots we 1:21:18.160 --> 1:21:20.640 got for this trip. Yeah, and like I live in 1:21:20.680 --> 1:21:24.720 the mountains. You were a literal sports person. Yeah. I 1:21:24.800 --> 1:21:26.280 enjoyed to be in the matter. Yeah. 1:21:26.360 --> 1:21:28.280 When I have time, I will go into the mountains 1:21:28.360 --> 1:21:29.560 and sleep outside. 1:21:29.720 --> 1:21:32.799 Yeah. Is cold? Is it was cold? 1:21:32.960 --> 1:21:35.280 You know there's a cold when your noseheads freeze when 1:21:35.320 --> 1:21:37.080 you breathe in and then yeah, then there's a cold 1:21:37.120 --> 1:21:40.519 when you're like my eyes are like actually icing over. Yeah, 1:21:40.520 --> 1:21:42.639 Like this is alarmingly cold. 1:21:43.160 --> 1:21:47.000 Is the coldest day here since twenty eighteen or twenty nineteen? 1:21:47.080 --> 1:21:47.639 Is what we learned. 1:21:47.720 --> 1:21:47.920 Yeah. 1:21:48.000 --> 1:21:50.800 Yeah, And you know when I talked to my friend 1:21:50.800 --> 1:21:52.240 before I came, I was like, it's going to be 1:21:52.520 --> 1:21:55.960 horrendously cold. Are people still going to show up, and 1:21:56.479 --> 1:21:58.240 you know, my friend who lives here is like, well 1:21:58.240 --> 1:22:01.160 we will Ice will be miserable. Yeah, and we saw 1:22:01.720 --> 1:22:05.000 probably ten thousand people outside today. Yeah, between the two protests, 1:22:05.120 --> 1:22:06.200 mostly the larger one. 1:22:06.680 --> 1:22:09.120 Yeah. So we roll up right and there is a 1:22:09.160 --> 1:22:12.800 small shield wall barricading one of the waves that Ice 1:22:13.400 --> 1:22:16.920 gets into the Whipple building to incarcerated people who they 1:22:16.920 --> 1:22:20.680 have snatched. There are probably half a dozen shields and 1:22:20.720 --> 1:22:24.120 then two big corrugated steel which is the level of 1:22:24.160 --> 1:22:28.680 bravery of that. Yeah, that is audacious. Yeah, because there 1:22:28.680 --> 1:22:30.720 were maybe one hundred people in that whole formation, right, 1:22:30.760 --> 1:22:32.280 and the shield walls facing two ways. 1:22:32.640 --> 1:22:33.400 We check it out. 1:22:33.560 --> 1:22:36.560 As we arrive, we see what we later learn was 1:22:36.600 --> 1:22:40.800 an Italian camera operator that had been mased in the face. 1:22:41.320 --> 1:22:44.320 I just want to break down again, Like we've made 1:22:44.360 --> 1:22:45.880 light of the cold, and it's funny that it's cold. 1:22:46.240 --> 1:22:50.200 You get maced, right, Generally you want to pour water 1:22:50.280 --> 1:22:50.840 on your face. 1:22:51.240 --> 1:22:51.439 Right. 1:22:52.000 --> 1:22:55.719 The clock is ticking pretty quickly once you start pouring 1:22:55.760 --> 1:22:58.800 liquid on exposed skin in these temperatures. 1:22:58.320 --> 1:23:02.120 The clock is ticking. Unexpos skin in these temperatures, any 1:23:02.240 --> 1:23:06.320 exposed skin is dangerous. I have this like basically balaklava 1:23:06.439 --> 1:23:09.360 that I like, I don't wear to protest. That's sketchy. Yeah, 1:23:09.400 --> 1:23:12.000 And then I'm like, oh no, I'm gonna like die 1:23:12.200 --> 1:23:14.960 if I don't wear this thing that covers every inch 1:23:15.000 --> 1:23:16.599 of my face. Yeah, Like I. 1:23:16.560 --> 1:23:19.680 Have a helmet with goggles, and I wasn't wearing the 1:23:19.680 --> 1:23:21.599 goggles for particularly, like I didn't think I was going 1:23:21.640 --> 1:23:23.439 to get a pepper ball in the eye. I needed 1:23:23.560 --> 1:23:26.479 the air not to touch my eyes. So like, this 1:23:26.400 --> 1:23:27.599 is amazing, is serious? 1:23:27.680 --> 1:23:27.800 Right? 1:23:27.840 --> 1:23:29.320 And I saw that and I saw them pouring water 1:23:29.320 --> 1:23:31.120 and I was like, oh shit, actually that's quite grave. 1:23:31.400 --> 1:23:34.599 And they actually did have a staged water truck the 1:23:34.680 --> 1:23:37.639 spray people. They didn't spray people with water. Yeah, yeah, 1:23:37.680 --> 1:23:39.400 that's what we heard where there was a water truck 1:23:39.439 --> 1:23:42.040 staged in the in the parking lot. To be clear, 1:23:42.120 --> 1:23:44.719 like that could have killed someone really easily. 1:23:44.840 --> 1:23:45.040 Yeah. 1:23:45.600 --> 1:23:47.280 So then that was one entrance. We were like, let's 1:23:47.280 --> 1:23:48.639 go to go back the other entrance to see. 1:23:48.520 --> 1:23:49.479 What the whole scene is here. 1:23:50.000 --> 1:23:53.320 As we're walking, first of all, we come past someone 1:23:53.360 --> 1:23:56.400 with one of those like trolleys that people pull. They 1:23:56.479 --> 1:23:59.360 have the better part of like a thousand tangs in 1:23:59.439 --> 1:24:02.680 foot warmers and they are stoked to be given them 1:24:02.680 --> 1:24:06.200 out right, So we handwarmers inside our gloves. Then we 1:24:06.240 --> 1:24:08.320 see someone who's pulled up in a minivan. That is 1:24:08.360 --> 1:24:11.320 the warming car. People do get cold, they get in 1:24:11.360 --> 1:24:14.360 there and they warm them up. We come around, someone 1:24:14.400 --> 1:24:19.559 has snacks. Someone's playing public enemy. As we come around further, 1:24:20.000 --> 1:24:22.639 we see this is the place that I are coming 1:24:22.680 --> 1:24:25.240 in with people. Right, consider are people who were there 1:24:25.920 --> 1:24:30.000 shouting at them. I saw a couple it's like snowballs thrown, 1:24:30.880 --> 1:24:34.360 and like, yeah, there were people who are throwing snowballs, right, 1:24:34.400 --> 1:24:36.040 But there were also folks who just turned out to 1:24:36.080 --> 1:24:38.240 be like, you know, I'm more of a that's not 1:24:38.320 --> 1:24:40.760 my vibe. But if you would like a snack while 1:24:40.760 --> 1:24:43.360 you're throwing them, I'm here for you. No one was like, hey, 1:24:43.360 --> 1:24:46.559 don't do that. Everyone was showing up in their own way, 1:24:47.040 --> 1:24:48.040 and that was really cool. 1:24:48.240 --> 1:24:49.960 Yeah, and that's like one of the things that you know, 1:24:49.960 --> 1:24:51.360 I asked at one point, I was like, what's the 1:24:51.479 --> 1:24:54.400 like discourse like about you know, the usual thing that 1:24:54.439 --> 1:24:57.000 divides people about, Like I'm going to use air quoter. 1:24:57.160 --> 1:24:59.680 You can't see, but violence are non violence which are 1:24:59.680 --> 1:25:05.040 like complicated age, right, you know, and you know, and 1:25:05.080 --> 1:25:07.439 there's obviously people like we've met people who've been like 1:25:07.479 --> 1:25:10.000 and we're non violent, and they're like really excited, and 1:25:10.000 --> 1:25:11.160 that's an important party. 1:25:11.000 --> 1:25:15.440 Who had yellow vests on being like peaceful observer, don't shoot. 1:25:15.320 --> 1:25:17.720 Right, And then there's also people who are like, we 1:25:18.000 --> 1:25:20.280 didn't see any of it, but there's graffiti all over town. 1:25:20.479 --> 1:25:23.280 Yeah, yeah, like fuck peace justice doesn't. 1:25:23.040 --> 1:25:25.280 Bring him back. Yeah, And I was like, what's the 1:25:25.320 --> 1:25:27.800 discourse like between these groups, and everyone we've talked to 1:25:27.880 --> 1:25:30.519 is like, there isn't time for that. Ah, we go 1:25:30.960 --> 1:25:33.880 shit to be doing. Yeah, And like you know, even 1:25:34.080 --> 1:25:36.559 when people are discussing things, they'll try to start having 1:25:36.640 --> 1:25:40.439 a discussion and someone's like, hey, Ice is on that corner. Yeah, 1:25:40.479 --> 1:25:42.560 and not that these discussions aren't worth it. Well, I 1:25:42.840 --> 1:25:46.160 famously my pins post on Blue Sky's discourse is the 1:25:46.200 --> 1:25:49.000 mind Killer. But like, and you can see it just 1:25:49.000 --> 1:25:50.960 like right here, right, because there's people who are like, 1:25:51.320 --> 1:25:53.240 when you show up with shields at a shield wall 1:25:53.320 --> 1:25:58.320 at blocking a federal agents from being somewhere, you're clearly 1:25:58.960 --> 1:26:02.240 being mildly antagon right. It is a it's a rowdy 1:26:02.280 --> 1:26:05.000 thing to do, and you know, and at the same time, right, 1:26:05.160 --> 1:26:07.000 Like we didn't make it to this because they were 1:26:07.000 --> 1:26:09.160 happening at the same time more or less, but not 1:26:09.320 --> 1:26:12.200 very far away at the airport. We're not the news 1:26:12.240 --> 1:26:14.880 in this particular case. It could happen here is a 1:26:14.920 --> 1:26:16.880 news show, but this is still not the news. We're 1:26:16.880 --> 1:26:19.439 reporting right now, like one hundred and fifty clergy people 1:26:19.479 --> 1:26:21.960 were restless of all disobedience because the airport's being used 1:26:22.000 --> 1:26:25.439 to transport people away. Did real quick tangent about that. 1:26:26.040 --> 1:26:28.360 I think it's really beautiful because there's so much you 1:26:28.400 --> 1:26:32.040 know that the national presses of course, like these anti 1:26:32.200 --> 1:26:35.799 Christian people attack church, and like, you know, the churches 1:26:35.840 --> 1:26:38.080 are on our side, except like one or two. 1:26:38.200 --> 1:26:40.720 If we were staying next to our church. Yeah, and 1:26:41.080 --> 1:26:42.840 like we get up in the morning that first day, 1:26:42.880 --> 1:26:44.680 we heard the honking and we see like, yeah, the 1:26:44.760 --> 1:26:47.479 church has got a sign being like yeah, I've knowniced ice. 1:26:47.520 --> 1:26:49.800 It seems bad. Yeah, I don't think it's not what 1:26:49.920 --> 1:26:50.800 Jesus would have done. 1:26:50.920 --> 1:26:54.200 Yeah. So we're at the thing and you know, we're like, okay, 1:26:54.200 --> 1:26:58.040 this is happening, and we start seeing the police getting 1:26:58.200 --> 1:26:59.919 ready to use munition. 1:27:00.360 --> 1:27:03.360 Right, we come back from the first place to where 1:27:03.360 --> 1:27:05.880 the shield wall was right, right, shield wall is no 1:27:06.000 --> 1:27:06.519 longer there. 1:27:06.720 --> 1:27:10.400 We think, huh, weird, no shield wall. And then there's 1:27:10.400 --> 1:27:11.840 a line of police. Oh look at that. 1:27:11.880 --> 1:27:15.840 It's Hennepin County sheriff Department. Yeah, and yeah, go ahead. 1:27:16.200 --> 1:27:18.280 No, no, I mean that's the thing is, it's always 1:27:18.280 --> 1:27:20.120 really sad when you come back and expect to see 1:27:20.120 --> 1:27:22.920 a shield wall and instead there's a line of police. Yeah. 1:27:22.960 --> 1:27:25.840 And they are yelling dispersal orders at the at the 1:27:25.840 --> 1:27:29.320 shield wall, which is already banked burst. Yeah. They're like 1:27:29.400 --> 1:27:32.040 they're they've been they've been pushed away. We can't there 1:27:32.160 --> 1:27:34.880 one hundred yards away. Yeah, Like we just like straight 1:27:34.920 --> 1:27:37.000 up can't see them. And we are told and no 1:27:37.160 --> 1:27:40.080 uncertain terms by some other folks who are standing this 1:27:40.120 --> 1:27:42.080 is not a large crowd. The crowd has been moved, 1:27:42.080 --> 1:27:44.360 and we're just kind of yeah, they're craps between us 1:27:44.400 --> 1:27:44.840 in our car. 1:27:45.160 --> 1:27:48.840 One, two, three, four, five, six of us. Yeah, there's 1:27:48.920 --> 1:27:51.000 six of us. And I was going, I was counting 1:27:51.000 --> 1:27:53.040 people in my head. I can I can't stay sick. 1:27:53.240 --> 1:27:56.360 No, No, you're right, And two of the people were 1:27:56.360 --> 1:27:58.200 standing next to are like, yeah, if you cross this 1:27:58.280 --> 1:28:00.360 red line. They told us that if we us this 1:28:00.439 --> 1:28:03.280 red line, the National Guard will shoot us dead and 1:28:03.320 --> 1:28:05.680 it we did not test that. 1:28:05.880 --> 1:28:07.800 Yeah, I'm not sure if they would a bit near 1:28:07.880 --> 1:28:09.439 young over song about it. 1:28:09.400 --> 1:28:13.599 Right, and we're not Ohio, it would be fine and 1:28:15.760 --> 1:28:19.519 Ministry to National Guard. Yeah, and so they they are 1:28:19.640 --> 1:28:21.200 not letting us go. Yeah. 1:28:21.640 --> 1:28:23.680 To be clear, the red line would have signified we 1:28:23.680 --> 1:28:25.760 were entering into like a military area. 1:28:25.640 --> 1:28:28.080 Right totally with no like barricades or anything like that. 1:28:28.080 --> 1:28:30.519 And just they had barricades further along right, Yeah, to 1:28:30.680 --> 1:28:33.280 make vehicles weave yet drive straight up. 1:28:33.680 --> 1:28:36.080 It's the side of a public road where the light 1:28:36.160 --> 1:28:39.800 rail station. So there's the line of police and they're 1:28:39.800 --> 1:28:42.559 mostly facing away from us. There's about two people facing 1:28:42.560 --> 1:28:46.000 towards us. Are cars between them. We are marked press. 1:28:46.000 --> 1:28:49.000 Yeah, and wearing a bright red helmet with presstickers on it. 1:28:49.640 --> 1:28:51.639 Blue helmet with presto because black. 1:28:52.320 --> 1:28:55.639 The first the cops keep pushing the shield wall further 1:28:55.680 --> 1:28:57.519 away from us, and we hear them on the l rad. 1:28:57.680 --> 1:28:59.840 This has been declared an lawful assembly. I did hear 1:29:00.680 --> 1:29:06.840 somebody shout by who? That is a very good question, honestly. 1:29:07.120 --> 1:29:07.920 Yeah. 1:29:08.040 --> 1:29:11.160 Unfortunately, the Hennepin County Sheriff's department were not very interested 1:29:11.160 --> 1:29:14.280 in answering questions. Yeah, And the way that we learned 1:29:14.280 --> 1:29:17.160 this is that a couple of people I would call 1:29:17.200 --> 1:29:19.960 them older folks just from looking at them from a distance. 1:29:20.080 --> 1:29:21.840 They weren't the young rowdies holding shields. 1:29:21.880 --> 1:29:24.200 They were absolutely not know There was an older gentleman 1:29:24.280 --> 1:29:27.800 in a male presenting person in carharts yeah right, who 1:29:27.800 --> 1:29:31.760 walked up coveralls yeah yeah, with hands up right, very 1:29:31.800 --> 1:29:35.000 clearly hands up and seemed to be asking or talking. 1:29:35.360 --> 1:29:37.400 Yeah. It was like probably going up to being like, hey, 1:29:37.400 --> 1:29:40.479 what's happening? Yeah, like whatever, Yeah, can I go over there? 1:29:40.760 --> 1:29:44.080 That person was arrested, Yeah, so was another person who 1:29:44.120 --> 1:29:44.599 was with them. 1:29:44.720 --> 1:29:46.680 Yeah, and they were told they were arrested on the 1:29:46.840 --> 1:29:49.479 l rad. We could hear that. Yeah you are on 1:29:49.640 --> 1:29:52.919 Dora Ros Yeah. Yeah, that was very strange. 1:29:53.120 --> 1:29:53.519 Yeah. 1:29:53.800 --> 1:29:56.920 Then a bus arrived, more cops got out, and those 1:29:56.920 --> 1:29:58.320 two people were put on the bus. 1:29:58.439 --> 1:30:00.960 Yeah. Three people, there's three, three of them, three to book. 1:30:01.520 --> 1:30:04.320 Yeah, okay, the majority of the police in turn to 1:30:04.320 --> 1:30:05.960 face us, yeah all six. 1:30:06.240 --> 1:30:08.280 By now there's probably twelve of us. Yeah, because because 1:30:08.280 --> 1:30:10.439 other people are like, hey, my car's over there too, Yeah. 1:30:11.280 --> 1:30:12.880 There in between us and where we parked our cars 1:30:12.920 --> 1:30:14.840 right now, Yeah, and then they turn the l rad 1:30:14.920 --> 1:30:17.400 around right and then they tell us that they have 1:30:17.479 --> 1:30:21.000 issued a dispersal order due to something about like a 1:30:21.080 --> 1:30:24.160 legal conduct, which again, we are standing on the platform 1:30:24.160 --> 1:30:25.960 with a light rail station at this point, and I 1:30:26.000 --> 1:30:28.080 have seen no one do anything other than stand around. 1:30:28.080 --> 1:30:30.320 I've seen someone through us, No, but up somewhere else 1:30:30.720 --> 1:30:33.320 we're in a different location. And then they say we 1:30:33.400 --> 1:30:37.400 have five minutes to disperse, and they they give us 1:30:37.400 --> 1:30:40.600 a cardinal direction. We have to disperse east. 1:30:40.600 --> 1:30:45.120 Onto a road that no one with us knew what was. Yeah, 1:30:45.240 --> 1:30:49.080 we're all looking like we're in a kind of weirdricade. 1:30:49.120 --> 1:30:51.800 I had previously tried to walk up to this line 1:30:51.880 --> 1:30:55.639 and be like, can we go through to our car please? 1:30:55.720 --> 1:30:57.720 Yeah, we would like to disperse, Yeah, because at this 1:30:57.760 --> 1:31:00.479 point we're like this is just going bad. 1:31:00.640 --> 1:31:04.519 Yeah, we're pressed now to be there, right, We're here 1:31:04.560 --> 1:31:06.799 to report and if we get arrested, we can't report 1:31:07.360 --> 1:31:08.559 and there's. 1:31:08.360 --> 1:31:09.200 Nothing to report on. 1:31:09.520 --> 1:31:13.240 Yeah, because the cops have cattled us with two other press. 1:31:12.960 --> 1:31:15.960 Yeah, the rest of the Italian news crew who can't 1:31:16.320 --> 1:31:19.480 don't have a camera. But they're still trying to do reporting, 1:31:19.600 --> 1:31:21.719 but brave as hell. Yeah, because they're just still standing 1:31:21.760 --> 1:31:24.839 there and they're like, yeah, you know, fake Italian accents, 1:31:24.840 --> 1:31:28.160 and they're just like our camera person got made. 1:31:28.360 --> 1:31:30.000 Yeah, they'll be fine, but they got made. 1:31:30.160 --> 1:31:30.599 Yeah. 1:31:30.640 --> 1:31:33.840 And so the cops had very clearly indicated that they 1:31:33.840 --> 1:31:37.840 were not interested in that arrangement. So we went back 1:31:37.880 --> 1:31:41.560 to standing there, wondering which way was east. I was 1:31:41.600 --> 1:31:43.479 trying to get under my last to my watch. I 1:31:43.479 --> 1:31:44.400 could pull up a company. 1:31:44.400 --> 1:31:46.200 I had figured out which way was east. I even 1:31:46.240 --> 1:31:49.160 had a suspicion about how to go that way. But 1:31:49.240 --> 1:31:51.880 I am willing. I believe I'm talking to other people 1:31:51.920 --> 1:31:55.920 who are elsewhere there that day, that day, today, this morning. 1:31:55.960 --> 1:31:58.520 It's been a long day. I don't normally drink caffeine. 1:31:58.760 --> 1:32:02.080 I am on caffeine. I believe that is where the 1:32:02.160 --> 1:32:05.040 other line of police was starting to kettle people from you. 1:32:05.160 --> 1:32:06.960 It seems like, so I actually believe they were not 1:32:07.160 --> 1:32:08.840 actually offering us away out at all. 1:32:09.360 --> 1:32:11.759 Yeah, I, on the other hand, was readers. I couldn't 1:32:11.760 --> 1:32:14.200 get to my watch was I knew it was before noon, 1:32:14.240 --> 1:32:16.240 so I was looking for where the sun was, and 1:32:16.280 --> 1:32:21.400 I knew some celestial navigation and at that point we saw. Well, 1:32:21.439 --> 1:32:23.880 actually at that point we went to the train platform 1:32:23.960 --> 1:32:26.280 and a light rail train was going not towards our 1:32:26.280 --> 1:32:28.880 carpet away from it, but it didn't open the doors 1:32:28.920 --> 1:32:30.600 when it came to the platform. Yeah, we were like, 1:32:30.640 --> 1:32:33.479 we want to go though, I said, Margaret, We're fucked. 1:32:35.080 --> 1:32:39.000 Margaret said, get ready to run. I guess yeah. And 1:32:39.040 --> 1:32:43.639 then as they were advancing towards us, comrade light rail 1:32:43.680 --> 1:32:44.439 train arrived. 1:32:45.120 --> 1:32:48.160 Everyone got on the train literally last minute. 1:32:48.280 --> 1:32:54.320 Yeah, scootle straight past the police line. And then we 1:32:54.360 --> 1:32:57.120 got off and commenced walking around to try and find 1:32:57.160 --> 1:32:58.080 a way back to our vehicle. 1:32:59.000 --> 1:33:02.000 So that was our morning and that was I mean, whatever, 1:33:02.240 --> 1:33:04.800 it's weird, the party is least affected, but to be 1:33:04.880 --> 1:33:08.080 like really just transparent about it. This is the coldest 1:33:08.160 --> 1:33:12.559 day of my life. I've experienced negative temperatures before. Yeah, 1:33:12.640 --> 1:33:16.040 I haven't experienced negative thirty something wind chill. Yeah, Like 1:33:16.400 --> 1:33:20.680 we were seeing people getting off the light rail. Everyone's 1:33:21.600 --> 1:33:24.760 eye lashes had frost in them. Yeah. 1:33:25.320 --> 1:33:28.240 Anyway, just to just to keep hitting that point. Well, 1:33:28.280 --> 1:33:31.000 like that was one of my concerns with detainment, right 1:33:31.080 --> 1:33:33.839 with like cops ledgendarily don't treat people in their custody 1:33:33.920 --> 1:33:36.880 very well, right, and I was very worried about right two, 1:33:37.760 --> 1:33:39.439 they did seem to be getting the people they arrested 1:33:39.520 --> 1:33:43.160 quickly on that bus. Yeah, but like that my worries, right, 1:33:43.160 --> 1:33:45.960 you got if you lose a glove when you're being handcuffed, 1:33:46.160 --> 1:33:48.040 that's not a that's you know, that's serious. 1:33:48.120 --> 1:33:49.880 Yeah, that's like maybe you lose your fingers now at 1:33:49.880 --> 1:33:52.120 the end of that like because it's like genuinely like 1:33:52.200 --> 1:33:54.160 a I know, we keep harping on it, but it's 1:33:54.200 --> 1:33:58.400 just it's a it's a present characteristic. Yeah, my car 1:33:58.479 --> 1:34:00.519 is a mess right now because we can't clean it 1:34:00.800 --> 1:34:05.599 because that involves standing outside in like negative eighteen or whatever. 1:34:05.680 --> 1:34:08.360 The fuck. All of these numbers have become meaningless to 1:34:08.439 --> 1:34:12.640 me at this point anyway. You know what keeps me warm, Margaret, 1:34:12.760 --> 1:34:15.559 the handwarmers we purchased with the money that we get 1:34:15.560 --> 1:34:16.639 from advertisements. Yeah. 1:34:16.640 --> 1:34:19.280 I was gonna say, thinking about thinking about how the 1:34:20.080 --> 1:34:22.439 products and services support the show love to support me 1:34:22.479 --> 1:34:23.720 and the work I do, But I don't think they 1:34:23.760 --> 1:34:25.160 actually know what I do. And to look at our 1:34:25.160 --> 1:34:26.680 listening numbers to be honest. 1:34:26.479 --> 1:34:30.600 Yeah, I think they don't hear our transitions in troubles 1:34:30.640 --> 1:34:41.360 shirt and they don't and here they are ander back. 1:34:42.400 --> 1:34:44.320 So we go to this and then we go to 1:34:44.360 --> 1:34:48.360 the clear highlight of the day, which is the ice 1:34:48.479 --> 1:34:50.640 vehicle crashed into Yeah. 1:34:50.800 --> 1:34:52.680 Yeah, this is when we decided we got to We 1:34:53.479 --> 1:34:57.120 received words and an ice vehicle had t boned telephone. 1:34:57.240 --> 1:35:00.200 Yeah. Yeah, I was doing a blue sky thread and 1:35:00.200 --> 1:35:02.160 I was like, Nope, that's a shorter thread because we 1:35:02.200 --> 1:35:03.520 got to go. Yeah. 1:35:04.040 --> 1:35:06.680 I'm not as good as Margaret is at skating when 1:35:06.720 --> 1:35:09.120 I'm at things, so I'm so used to being in 1:35:09.160 --> 1:35:11.320 places where it would be a risky to everyone involved. Yeah, 1:35:11.320 --> 1:35:14.000 posted I was there. Yeah, so we yeah, we go, right, 1:35:14.040 --> 1:35:16.639 we park a few bucks away. Once we see flashing lights. Yeah, 1:35:16.680 --> 1:35:19.559 we start booging up the street at fast walk pace, 1:35:19.600 --> 1:35:21.360 which is about as fast as you're gonna go when 1:35:21.360 --> 1:35:23.280 it's an inch of ice on everything. Yeah, and we 1:35:23.360 --> 1:35:26.240 see this car that has fair there's traffic coming roundabout 1:35:26.800 --> 1:35:29.800 that clearly they were not expecting to be there. It 1:35:29.840 --> 1:35:31.760 looks like they've they've been trying to go straight over 1:35:31.800 --> 1:35:32.559 to round about and. 1:35:32.560 --> 1:35:34.840 Have Yeah, they're just like the front of their car 1:35:34.920 --> 1:35:39.320 is just crashed in a fifteen mile per hour street. Yeah. 1:35:39.400 --> 1:35:41.200 Yeah, like a street where like you would expect a 1:35:41.280 --> 1:35:42.840 child to be riding a bicycle in the summer. 1:35:42.960 --> 1:35:45.240 Yeah, and it's like it's one of those streets that's 1:35:45.280 --> 1:35:50.320 like cars on both sides, one lane rane one lane 1:35:50.360 --> 1:35:53.320 that two cars have to pass each other by backing up. Yeah, 1:35:53.320 --> 1:35:55.080 and they clearly just blew through it. They don't give 1:35:55.080 --> 1:35:56.920 a fuck. And that's like a thing we've heard over 1:35:56.960 --> 1:35:59.680 and over from the people who who tail them is 1:35:59.680 --> 1:36:03.960 that they they drive erradically, they drive, they drive recklessly 1:36:04.000 --> 1:36:07.559 because they are they think they're immune to all consequences. Yeah, 1:36:07.600 --> 1:36:11.439 and they are. They are until someone like the only 1:36:11.439 --> 1:36:15.080 people giving them consequences are the people of the city, 1:36:15.360 --> 1:36:18.320 not in the city itself or the state. 1:36:18.520 --> 1:36:22.240 Yeah, this is the thing. Actually, I'll just I have 1:36:22.360 --> 1:36:26.160 spent more time than nearly everyone at the southern border 1:36:26.160 --> 1:36:29.160 of the United States in more places right in California, 1:36:29.320 --> 1:36:31.760 in Texas, in New Mexico, in Arizona. 1:36:32.120 --> 1:36:33.439 I've been up and down the border. 1:36:33.560 --> 1:36:36.439 There is one thing that unites the border experience, be 1:36:36.520 --> 1:36:40.519 it on torn or Dumb Reservation in Arizona, be in 1:36:40.560 --> 1:36:44.040 San Diego, being New Mexico, or in the Rio Grand 1:36:44.080 --> 1:36:46.600 Valley of Texas and is that border patrols driving is 1:36:46.640 --> 1:36:49.800 a risk to everyone. And you can hear the most 1:36:49.800 --> 1:36:51.479 straight up right wing people if they I love what 1:36:51.479 --> 1:36:53.719 they're doing. I don't want the mirgrats in my country, 1:36:53.720 --> 1:36:57.280 but I wish they wouldn't drive like digs and like 1:36:57.320 --> 1:36:58.120 they've killed. 1:36:57.880 --> 1:36:59.200 People on the Autumn reservation. 1:36:59.360 --> 1:37:03.880 Right, this is serious and that what is happening once 1:37:03.920 --> 1:37:05.880 again is that the border is coming to a city 1:37:05.880 --> 1:37:09.080 and people are seeing this is not new, it's new here. 1:37:09.640 --> 1:37:12.720 The driving erratically is such a perfect though example of 1:37:13.000 --> 1:37:16.759 what power does to people, Like you have an unaccountable force, 1:37:17.240 --> 1:37:19.320 and they will do horrible things. Yeah, they will do 1:37:20.040 --> 1:37:23.439 major horrible things like kidnapping people, and they'll do petty 1:37:23.880 --> 1:37:27.160 I don't care. I am just drunk on power things. 1:37:27.680 --> 1:37:29.400 But they will leave the cars and drive when they 1:37:29.479 --> 1:37:31.720 pull them out right like the second to popic Dew Park, 1:37:31.960 --> 1:37:34.679 or like yeah in this case, will they will case 1:37:34.760 --> 1:37:35.719 a telephone pole? 1:37:35.920 --> 1:37:38.320 Right anyway, So then we decide we're going to the 1:37:38.360 --> 1:37:42.200 big march downtown. Yeah, you know, because the general strike 1:37:42.240 --> 1:37:44.760 has a component that is a big march downtown. And 1:37:45.520 --> 1:37:50.080 the single most important thing about that to me was 1:37:50.240 --> 1:37:53.840 again to keep harping on it the cold, because I 1:37:53.880 --> 1:37:55.599 know a lot of people who go to these sorts 1:37:55.600 --> 1:37:57.599 of marches, right, and these are the sorts of marches 1:37:57.600 --> 1:37:59.440 that a lot of people go to who don't necessarily 1:38:00.280 --> 1:38:03.559 a ton of other political activity. Although here it probably 1:38:03.600 --> 1:38:05.719 feels a little different because a lot of the people 1:38:05.760 --> 1:38:08.280 go into that march who probably are the kind of 1:38:09.040 --> 1:38:11.519 sign holding going to the big march kind of people 1:38:12.720 --> 1:38:16.680 are also quite possibly at the very least showing up 1:38:16.680 --> 1:38:17.600 on air whistles. 1:38:17.840 --> 1:38:21.160 Yeah, doing the work right there, buying the groceries, whatever 1:38:21.200 --> 1:38:24.080 it is. Yeah, Like I think one thing, I was strucked. 1:38:24.080 --> 1:38:26.559 So we're walking towards march, and it is one of 1:38:26.560 --> 1:38:28.040 the genders you get us a lot when you're going 1:38:28.040 --> 1:38:29.960 to a big action, right, you feel like a salmon 1:38:30.160 --> 1:38:32.719 and everyone's just swimming up and swimming in the stream 1:38:32.760 --> 1:38:36.400 together or you know whatever, tuna and you're all going 1:38:36.400 --> 1:38:39.120 towards the same space. And that's cool. That's always nice 1:38:39.200 --> 1:38:40.080 to feel the size. 1:38:40.560 --> 1:38:43.040 And then we get there and it's big, like there's 1:38:43.080 --> 1:38:43.599 a lot of. 1:38:43.560 --> 1:38:46.880 People, and it's cold. Like I know, we keep talking 1:38:46.960 --> 1:38:51.000 on about the cold, it is cold as shit. Margaret's 1:38:51.040 --> 1:38:53.639 ear was a little bit out. We were both worried 1:38:53.640 --> 1:38:57.280 about Margaret's ear. Yeah, like it's you want to ensure it, 1:38:57.520 --> 1:39:01.400 like skin coverage in these temperatures. Yeah, we get there 1:39:01.439 --> 1:39:03.840 and like so they're meeting in like a big square 1:39:03.920 --> 1:39:06.080 and then they're marching through the street, right, Yeah, and 1:39:06.120 --> 1:39:08.400 there are also people on like there are internal walkways 1:39:08.439 --> 1:39:10.719 between buildings above the street and all of them around 1:39:10.720 --> 1:39:13.960 with people with signs or cheering and stuff. And the 1:39:14.000 --> 1:39:16.200 thing I noticed as we got there was like, immediately 1:39:16.200 --> 1:39:18.519 we set foot in that square, we're once again being 1:39:18.520 --> 1:39:22.200 offered hot cocoa hand warmers. There's a guy with like 1:39:22.240 --> 1:39:27.040 a you know, there's orange insulatd containers that they use 1:39:27.080 --> 1:39:30.400 it like sports like a gator. Then he's got soup 1:39:30.479 --> 1:39:34.600 in it. Yeah, he's backpacking the super it's vegan and 1:39:34.640 --> 1:39:37.960 gluten free and he's handing out soup. There are multiple 1:39:38.000 --> 1:39:39.920 people who have just set up to care for people 1:39:39.960 --> 1:39:44.080 because it's cold and people might need caring for, right, Like, 1:39:44.960 --> 1:39:48.080 there are all kinds of facilities there to like look 1:39:48.120 --> 1:39:52.519 after folks. Yeah, we received some hand warmers. I think 1:39:52.600 --> 1:39:54.840 I think you and I both took some hand warmers. 1:39:55.160 --> 1:39:57.719 And there wasn't at least where we were like a speaker. 1:39:58.040 --> 1:40:01.960 There was some chanting at this point, like I would 1:40:02.040 --> 1:40:04.040 love to include a be a roll of chanting. Unfortunately 1:40:04.040 --> 1:40:08.000 it was so cold that both my voice recorders refused 1:40:08.000 --> 1:40:08.400 to work. 1:40:08.400 --> 1:40:12.559 Oh yeah, one by one, every electronic device that James 1:40:12.600 --> 1:40:15.800 brought ate shit, and I like, you know I much 1:40:15.880 --> 1:40:17.560 you'll listen to my shit. I'm much more of a 1:40:17.680 --> 1:40:21.200 ViBe's podcaster, where I like just observe and then write 1:40:21.200 --> 1:40:25.559 everything down. James is a proper podcaster and journalist and like, uh, 1:40:26.040 --> 1:40:29.679 you know, as b roll of things, not as much 1:40:29.720 --> 1:40:30.639 today yet. 1:40:30.800 --> 1:40:33.439 Everybody, my voice recorder, which has been through the Darien 1:40:33.479 --> 1:40:36.160 Gap as it tended this Syrian civil war, it's been 1:40:36.200 --> 1:40:38.080 to the place where the US dropped a nuclear bomb. 1:40:38.439 --> 1:40:40.360 She didn't make it out of Minneapolis. It's gone to 1:40:40.439 --> 1:40:43.280 Valhalla now, yeah, which is sad. I even tried to 1:40:43.320 --> 1:40:45.920 record on my phone, but my phone just black screened on. 1:40:45.960 --> 1:40:47.920 Me, like this comedy. 1:40:48.160 --> 1:40:50.760 Yeah, it was pretty funny when when the cell phone tired, 1:40:50.800 --> 1:40:53.880 it was like previously I had been painting a picture 1:40:53.920 --> 1:40:57.639 fuel using my nose to unlock the phone and then 1:40:57.720 --> 1:41:00.400 like actuate apps because I didn't want to take my 1:41:00.479 --> 1:41:01.040 glove off. 1:41:01.400 --> 1:41:04.760 We would we would take turns taking our hands out 1:41:04.800 --> 1:41:07.320 of gloves to touch buttons on things, yeah, or. 1:41:07.280 --> 1:41:10.800 To like adjust each os clothes or like, yeah, someone 1:41:10.840 --> 1:41:12.680 worts me doing the phone thing and they gave me 1:41:12.720 --> 1:41:14.240 a nod like yeah doing the nose phone. 1:41:14.400 --> 1:41:17.760 Yeah, yeah totally, And like, I don't know, I just 1:41:17.880 --> 1:41:22.320 I keep talking about how the sense of togetherness it's inspiring. 1:41:22.760 --> 1:41:26.160 Like full disclosure, I'm not a big rally person. I'm 1:41:26.240 --> 1:41:29.960 much personally more interested in mutual aid and direct action. 1:41:31.160 --> 1:41:34.360 I'm disinterested in it when it seems like a way 1:41:34.360 --> 1:41:36.880 for people to check off that they've done their resistance. 1:41:37.320 --> 1:41:40.200 Yeah, definitely if that feels like you're warm fuzzy and 1:41:40.240 --> 1:41:40.960 that's all you want. 1:41:41.400 --> 1:41:44.200 But in this case, it was more I don't know 1:41:44.280 --> 1:41:47.920 for certain, it was more of a warm fuzzy for 1:41:48.120 --> 1:41:51.400 people who are also just doing this hard thing day 1:41:51.439 --> 1:41:52.720 in and day out. 1:41:52.960 --> 1:41:55.120 It felt like when you and your friends, like, you know, 1:41:55.120 --> 1:41:57.720 when you're doing a hard, long neutral aid thing, right, 1:41:57.800 --> 1:42:00.160 you know, like or let's say you're in days a 1:42:00.200 --> 1:42:02.720 prodict that feeds people every week and once a year 1:42:02.760 --> 1:42:05.120 you get together and have a dinner together. Right, it 1:42:05.160 --> 1:42:07.320 felt a bit like that, or like yeah, you know 1:42:07.360 --> 1:42:09.040 a little bit like when we were feeding people in 1:42:09.040 --> 1:42:12.080 the desert, we would sit down afterwards and was talking 1:42:12.080 --> 1:42:14.639 about this with someone. Today we would like eat vegan 1:42:14.760 --> 1:42:16.800 MRIs out of the packet like people. 1:42:16.479 --> 1:42:17.360 Eat go goots. 1:42:17.640 --> 1:42:20.080 Yeah, because we were too tired to walk of food 1:42:20.080 --> 1:42:22.160 while we were hungry. But we would spend a little 1:42:22.160 --> 1:42:24.400 bit of time in community and celebrate what we've done. 1:42:24.760 --> 1:42:26.920 What was cool though, was like sometimes after those big 1:42:26.960 --> 1:42:30.479 actions you feel a little lonely, but like it felt 1:42:30.479 --> 1:42:32.960 like that was just everyone going over there, but like 1:42:33.040 --> 1:42:35.400 there was also everyone elsewhere as you kind of went 1:42:35.439 --> 1:42:36.439 around the city, you. 1:42:36.360 --> 1:42:38.479 Know, right, Like it wasn't like that was the end 1:42:38.479 --> 1:42:40.679 of it. Yeah, And I was I was worried it would, 1:42:40.880 --> 1:42:43.680 you know, draw people away from other things. But you know, 1:42:43.840 --> 1:42:46.680 even this huge crowd was only a tiny portion of 1:42:46.720 --> 1:42:48.880 the people doing things in the city. And people are 1:42:48.920 --> 1:42:51.200 still doing things. And at one point I was like, hey, 1:42:51.240 --> 1:42:54.240 it's it's maybe it's Thursday. We were like, hey, we 1:42:54.280 --> 1:42:57.479 saw less people out today. Was that because the coal 1:42:57.600 --> 1:42:59.720 was starting to dry? People inside? And we talked to 1:42:59.760 --> 1:43:03.320 some and they're like, no, ice was less out today 1:43:03.320 --> 1:43:06.320 than it was yesterday. But if ice had come out, 1:43:06.680 --> 1:43:09.080 all of those people would have come out again. They 1:43:09.120 --> 1:43:11.920 were all staged and ready to go. And one of 1:43:11.920 --> 1:43:15.160 the things, actually, the warm fuzzy thing that feeling. One 1:43:15.160 --> 1:43:17.240 of the things that we talked to is that people 1:43:17.240 --> 1:43:19.439 are very aware that they're organizing for the long haul, 1:43:19.840 --> 1:43:22.760 like yeah, you know, I again, I'm I don't have 1:43:22.800 --> 1:43:24.040 the news in front of me. But the word on 1:43:24.080 --> 1:43:25.840 the ground here is people being like, we think ice 1:43:25.920 --> 1:43:29.439 might be here till June, right, and so people are like, 1:43:29.720 --> 1:43:32.479 how do we do that? You know? And one of 1:43:32.520 --> 1:43:37.240 the things is that, like there are people providing things 1:43:37.320 --> 1:43:40.479 to the people doing things, you know, the people whose 1:43:40.560 --> 1:43:42.760 job is to provide things for other people are having 1:43:42.800 --> 1:43:45.320 people provide things for them. Yeah, And there's this moment 1:43:45.360 --> 1:43:48.320 I think about all the time. I'll accidentally do like 1:43:48.360 --> 1:43:51.160 the you know, I was at this protest in the 1:43:51.200 --> 1:43:54.920 Netherlands and the cops try to grab my friend. Yeah, 1:43:54.960 --> 1:43:57.320 and they try to grab him because he's screaming the 1:43:57.320 --> 1:43:59.800 Netherlands as a police state, which they try to make 1:43:59.800 --> 1:44:02.240 their point by trying to grab him, right, So everyone 1:44:02.240 --> 1:44:04.759 holds on to him. So the cops start just beating 1:44:04.760 --> 1:44:06.960 the crap out of the people holding on to him. 1:44:07.160 --> 1:44:09.080 So people start grabbing onto the people who are holding 1:44:09.120 --> 1:44:11.240 on to the person. They start trying to beat the 1:44:11.240 --> 1:44:12.559 people who are holding non of the people who are 1:44:12.560 --> 1:44:13.800 holding on to the people who are holding non of 1:44:13.840 --> 1:44:15.679 the people. By the time it gets to like four 1:44:15.760 --> 1:44:18.599 layers out, the cops are just like, yeah, fucking yeah, 1:44:18.640 --> 1:44:22.040 fuck this all right. The center person is never arrested, 1:44:23.080 --> 1:44:27.479 you know. And that's what solidarity is. But that's also 1:44:27.640 --> 1:44:29.599 a lot of the mutual aid stuff, like we're talking 1:44:29.600 --> 1:44:31.599 about to people who are like, yeah, we work day 1:44:31.640 --> 1:44:34.280 in and day out on this stuff, and other people 1:44:34.560 --> 1:44:39.439 are like massage therapists and regular therapists are talking with us, 1:44:39.920 --> 1:44:44.439 you know, and like people are building the infrastructure to 1:44:44.520 --> 1:44:48.880 try and make it sustainable, and who knows. I don't 1:44:48.880 --> 1:44:53.040 know whether you can truly sustain what's happening here, right, 1:44:53.520 --> 1:44:56.200 but like they're gonna fucking try. Yeah. 1:44:56.240 --> 1:44:59.559 The way I like to explain anarchism to people, it's 1:44:59.640 --> 1:45:02.360 sometimes the confusion, right that people think anarchism is a 1:45:02.400 --> 1:45:05.040 predilection for chaos and violence, and that's not what it is. 1:45:05.760 --> 1:45:09.439 I like to explain that anarchism at its core is 1:45:09.640 --> 1:45:12.880 building ways of caring for one another that don't reinforce 1:45:12.920 --> 1:45:16.759 ways of controlling one another. Yeah, and that's what people 1:45:16.840 --> 1:45:20.080 are doing here, right, Yeah, under any name. Yeah, it 1:45:20.120 --> 1:45:22.560 doesn't mean that the rest of it is really ephemeral. 1:45:22.960 --> 1:45:25.920 A lot of them are anarchists, but not not anywhere 1:45:25.920 --> 1:45:26.840 near the majority of them. 1:45:27.040 --> 1:45:29.320 Yeah, but I think that we can use what Gym's 1:45:29.320 --> 1:45:32.320 got called the anarchist squint right, and sees people building 1:45:32.320 --> 1:45:37.400 networks here that make the state unnecessary. Yeah, irrelevant right now. 1:45:37.640 --> 1:45:39.760 The violence is still very much relevant, but others. Right, 1:45:39.760 --> 1:45:42.200 the Feds are going to cut funding. Yeah, they can 1:45:42.240 --> 1:45:45.160 cut foods damps in Minnesota. Yeah, people are still going 1:45:45.200 --> 1:45:46.400 to get food to their neighbors. 1:45:46.800 --> 1:45:46.960 Right. 1:45:47.000 --> 1:45:50.920 They can cut education funding. We heard that there are 1:45:50.960 --> 1:45:54.080 schools which have a very diverse background. And by the 1:45:54.080 --> 1:45:56.240 diverse here, I don't just mean like people of different races, 1:45:56.280 --> 1:45:58.040 but also people of different income brackets. 1:45:58.120 --> 1:45:58.280 Right. 1:45:58.560 --> 1:46:02.320 And the wealthier parents are like, which families aren't able 1:46:02.360 --> 1:46:04.479 to work? How do I help them make their rent? 1:46:04.680 --> 1:46:08.080 Yeah? Oh god, it was funny when yeah, people were like, oh, 1:46:08.120 --> 1:46:11.240 you know the thing where like the rich parents are 1:46:11.280 --> 1:46:14.360 like really excited to help everyone and feed everyone. I 1:46:14.400 --> 1:46:17.160 was like, no, that, Yeah, that's how you realize that 1:46:17.160 --> 1:46:23.240 it's not the stereotype like it should be. 1:46:23.439 --> 1:46:26.240 Yeah, it should be. Well, I think folks are really like, huh, 1:46:26.280 --> 1:46:29.400 what are the world without? These people look like worse? 1:46:29.920 --> 1:46:32.240 I don't want that. Yeah, Like what do I have 1:46:32.320 --> 1:46:34.080 that I can use to stop that? I have my time, 1:46:34.120 --> 1:46:35.600 I have my body, I have my money. Let me 1:46:35.640 --> 1:46:39.200 give them all of them? Yeah, yeah, I thought that 1:46:39.320 --> 1:46:42.800 was very cool. I think the the specific thing that 1:46:42.920 --> 1:46:47.000 has made people I saw little signs. They have the 1:46:47.120 --> 1:46:49.200 name for one of the guys from Liam, the young, 1:46:49.360 --> 1:46:51.360 very very young kid, right, the five year old kid 1:46:51.360 --> 1:46:55.000 with the Superman on it was yeah, grabbed the spider Man. Yeah, 1:46:55.000 --> 1:46:56.320 he was grabbed the other day. I saw a lot 1:46:56.320 --> 1:46:57.880 of people with science about that like. 1:46:57.960 --> 1:46:58.679 Made me want to cry. 1:46:58.760 --> 1:47:03.200 And just seeing the signs with these little outrages continue 1:47:03.200 --> 1:47:06.799 to bring people out of their safe, warm comfort bubbles 1:47:06.840 --> 1:47:09.720 and be like no, like I am going to do 1:47:09.760 --> 1:47:13.360 whatever it takes, my money, my time, whatever, right. 1:47:13.280 --> 1:47:16.200 Yeah you know William van s Bronson. Yes, for people 1:47:16.200 --> 1:47:20.479 who are listening, there was an IWW member named William 1:47:20.520 --> 1:47:23.719 von s Bronson who was killed by ice a number 1:47:23.720 --> 1:47:28.000 of years ago now because he decided that he would 1:47:28.080 --> 1:47:30.840 go and try to set some ice stuff on fire. 1:47:31.200 --> 1:47:31.800 Middle of the night. 1:47:31.880 --> 1:47:34.080 Yeah, I think it was busses, right, unoccupied buses to 1:47:34.080 --> 1:47:34.599 be clear. 1:47:34.520 --> 1:47:36.800 Yeah, middle of the night, empty buses, the busses that 1:47:36.800 --> 1:47:40.479 they're using to kidnap people. And the cops showed up 1:47:40.479 --> 1:47:42.960 and killed him. Yeah right, And he was seen as 1:47:43.080 --> 1:47:46.760 kind of this this lone wing nut. Yeah, you know, 1:47:47.479 --> 1:47:49.680 and I'm watching it and I'm like, this man is 1:47:49.680 --> 1:47:51.920 going to be written about history books. That's like a 1:47:52.000 --> 1:47:55.040 guy actually started doing something early about this. And in 1:47:55.160 --> 1:47:58.360 his statement that he wrote, I'm not telling people that 1:47:58.400 --> 1:48:01.360 this was a wise action for him to have taken, whatever, 1:48:02.200 --> 1:48:05.400 But in his statement he wrote, he wrote a line 1:48:05.760 --> 1:48:09.479 something like, I am off to fulfill my childhood promise 1:48:09.560 --> 1:48:14.040 to myself to be noble, and like he knew he 1:48:14.160 --> 1:48:17.120 was going to die doing that action, right. That certainly 1:48:17.160 --> 1:48:21.160 seems to be the tone from the letter. But that 1:48:21.360 --> 1:48:26.840 line the idea of fulfilling your promise to yourself to 1:48:26.880 --> 1:48:30.840 be noble, And the thing that is beautiful here is 1:48:30.840 --> 1:48:35.120 that you can now do that with people and effectively. 1:48:35.960 --> 1:48:37.479 And I think that a lot of the things that 1:48:37.560 --> 1:48:41.559 stop people from taking action is a belief that it 1:48:41.600 --> 1:48:46.160 would be shot in the dark. It would be alone thing. 1:48:46.240 --> 1:48:51.559 It wouldn't It wouldn't accomplish anything, right, because most actions 1:48:51.560 --> 1:48:54.800 you can take yourself don't accomplish nearly as much. And 1:48:54.840 --> 1:48:56.599 to be clear that the people who built rapid response 1:48:56.640 --> 1:48:59.920 networks here they learn from other cities. They learn from Chicago, 1:49:00.040 --> 1:49:02.600 who learned from la Right, that is the lineage that 1:49:02.920 --> 1:49:07.560 I've heard presented. Yeah, but they have developed and expanded 1:49:07.600 --> 1:49:12.160 because this is actually a bigger thing than operation on ices, 1:49:12.200 --> 1:49:16.320 part than either of those. But so people can do 1:49:17.960 --> 1:49:21.200 We've been put on this earth to do, which is 1:49:22.760 --> 1:49:26.840 be our best selves. And I think that there's even 1:49:27.040 --> 1:49:29.760 as hard as it is for people, I think that 1:49:29.800 --> 1:49:35.200 there's a dark beauty that they get to know who 1:49:35.200 --> 1:49:37.680 they are, and they get to know that they are 1:49:37.760 --> 1:49:41.880 people who will make sandwiches, you know, because that's the thing, 1:49:42.360 --> 1:49:45.160 and they will risk everything to make sandwiches. They will 1:49:45.240 --> 1:49:49.600 risk everything to follow ice vehicles and honk it. Like 1:49:49.960 --> 1:49:53.639 imagine following a murderer down the street, going this man's 1:49:53.640 --> 1:49:56.559 a murderer. Man right here shoots people. 1:49:56.800 --> 1:49:58.639 Well, not just that, right, this person has the power 1:49:58.680 --> 1:50:00.280 to kill me and not face constant. 1:50:00.479 --> 1:50:03.719 Yeah, that's what they're shouting at people. Yeah, and everyone 1:50:03.760 --> 1:50:06.840 is shouting at that them. Yeah, yeah, and it works. 1:50:07.160 --> 1:50:11.080 Yeah, and it's people who you wouldn't expect the people 1:50:11.120 --> 1:50:13.960 you would expect, both together alongside each other. 1:50:14.880 --> 1:50:15.120 Yeah. 1:50:15.200 --> 1:50:18.479 I think a lot about how, like how much things 1:50:18.479 --> 1:50:21.120 have changed in this country in a year. Lots of 1:50:21.160 --> 1:50:25.800 it's bad, right, But like, abolish ice was a pretty 1:50:25.880 --> 1:50:29.320 niche position in twenty twenty. Let me tell you you 1:50:29.320 --> 1:50:32.320 didn't really hear it, right, Abolish ice is a compromise 1:50:32.439 --> 1:50:34.479 position now as the centrist position. 1:50:34.560 --> 1:50:38.240 Yeah, that is reform ice center right. 1:50:38.600 --> 1:50:41.920 Yeah, yeah, I think reform ice is in some parts 1:50:41.920 --> 1:50:44.639 of the Republican body, right, Abolish ice is pretty much 1:50:44.640 --> 1:50:45.360 in between the two. 1:50:45.439 --> 1:50:47.920 Yeah. The political parties haven't caught up to this fact. 1:50:48.479 --> 1:50:51.479 Yeah, but they'd never do. They always take longer than 1:50:51.520 --> 1:50:54.000 everyone else. But let me tell you, there was you know, 1:50:54.200 --> 1:50:57.080 what would Ronald Reagan guy do? When you've lost? What 1:50:57.120 --> 1:51:00.360 would Ronald Reagan guy do? You're in fucking trouble? Yeah, 1:51:00.560 --> 1:51:01.559 total this country. 1:51:01.680 --> 1:51:04.200 Yeah, and I love how it's like we talked to 1:51:04.200 --> 1:51:06.479 a lot of people with a lot of different political ideas. 1:51:06.720 --> 1:51:11.880 Most people didn't have this is my political ideology and expressed. Yeah, 1:51:12.080 --> 1:51:15.400 but like you know, people are like just blunt, like, well, 1:51:15.960 --> 1:51:18.000 it would be better if the politicians were doing it, 1:51:18.520 --> 1:51:19.120 and they're not. 1:51:20.000 --> 1:51:22.200 Yeah, it's this lady who Again the lady said, oh, 1:51:22.200 --> 1:51:22.960 there's a local cops. 1:51:22.960 --> 1:51:24.400 You don't have to worry about them. Yeah. 1:51:24.560 --> 1:51:27.200 A couple of days later it turned out, but she 1:51:27.720 --> 1:51:30.200 was like, it would be great about politicians are with us, 1:51:30.240 --> 1:51:32.000 but they're not, So we're gonna do it ourselves. 1:51:32.200 --> 1:51:33.719 Yeah, Like that's all you need. 1:51:34.040 --> 1:51:36.960 The lady's done more anarchism than your your average internet 1:51:36.960 --> 1:51:39.679 anarchist who Zoosh's out there fed posting every day. Yeah 1:51:39.800 --> 1:51:42.519 all right, Yeah, that's that's really all you need. 1:51:42.680 --> 1:51:45.080 Yeah, well we're gonna take one more ad break. 1:51:45.280 --> 1:51:47.440 That's all you really need is advertisements. 1:51:47.760 --> 1:51:59.760 And it goes a little something like this, and we're 1:51:59.760 --> 1:52:02.320 about I feel. 1:52:02.320 --> 1:52:05.040 Warmed in my belly by those advertisements. 1:52:05.240 --> 1:52:08.559 Yeah hopefully you buy something that you don't need. 1:52:08.840 --> 1:52:10.840 Yeah, I hopefully you skip past them. 1:52:10.840 --> 1:52:13.639 But yeah, you know they double tap the old headphone button. 1:52:13.640 --> 1:52:14.920 It normally goes twenty seconds. 1:52:14.960 --> 1:52:17.120 See the problem is that I like, I don't usually 1:52:17.160 --> 1:52:19.840 I listen to a lot of podcasts, and I don't 1:52:19.880 --> 1:52:25.800 have cooler zone media because I have Android. Yeah, so yeah, 1:52:25.920 --> 1:52:28.680 I know, so the ads come home. 1:52:28.800 --> 1:52:30.960 Remember if you tag I write, okay, if you have 1:52:31.000 --> 1:52:32.639 any issues regarding the yeah. 1:52:32.960 --> 1:52:36.439 Yeah, yeah, that'll that will definitely work. Yeah. And so 1:52:36.640 --> 1:52:38.160 sometimes when I'm like, because I listen to a lot 1:52:38.160 --> 1:52:42.040 of podcasts while I'm like doing like woodworking or like yeah, yeah, 1:52:42.120 --> 1:52:44.320 doing some of my hands. Yeah, and so I like, 1:52:44.360 --> 1:52:47.040 I'm like, I don't want to put down the saw 1:52:47.160 --> 1:52:48.839 in order to yeah, press the button. 1:52:49.760 --> 1:52:52.599 So I do it with my with my left earl 1:52:52.880 --> 1:52:58.719 against my shoulder. That's how I skip them. Yeah, because 1:52:58.720 --> 1:52:59.920 I don't have cooler zone media. 1:53:00.680 --> 1:53:02.519 Yeah, but maybe you do. 1:53:02.800 --> 1:53:05.760 Which if you only a diversion about shit, it doesn't 1:53:05.800 --> 1:53:06.120 bother you. 1:53:06.680 --> 1:53:10.479 Lucky, Lucky. We will have a lot more reporting. This 1:53:10.520 --> 1:53:12.160 isn't the end of the episode, but we'll have a 1:53:12.160 --> 1:53:16.840 lot more reporting about Minneapolis and the structures that people 1:53:16.840 --> 1:53:21.000 are building, and Minneapolis and Saint Paul and the outlying areas. 1:53:21.000 --> 1:53:23.200 Someone kind of correctly checked me on the fact that 1:53:23.200 --> 1:53:26.760 I keep saying Minneapolis, it's just spend my day and 1:53:26.800 --> 1:53:29.320 things are different, but things are different blocked by block, 1:53:29.920 --> 1:53:31.920 but a lot of that we really want to kind 1:53:31.920 --> 1:53:33.559 of do, right, and we're going to write scripted but 1:53:33.600 --> 1:53:37.640 we're just really kind of in it right now and 1:53:38.000 --> 1:53:39.640 really want to talk about this. And what part of 1:53:39.680 --> 1:53:41.160 the reason we want to talk about this so soon 1:53:41.800 --> 1:53:44.920 is because things happen really fast, and just that everyone 1:53:44.960 --> 1:53:48.720 we've talked to has told us that they they want 1:53:48.760 --> 1:53:51.439 people to know, you know, the horrors are getting out 1:53:51.520 --> 1:53:53.719 on some level, which is good. It is actually good 1:53:53.800 --> 1:53:56.640 that people are learning all these horrible things. But a 1:53:56.640 --> 1:53:59.800 lot of the scale of the resistance isn't getting out 1:53:59.800 --> 1:54:03.439 and afficacy of the resistance as in getting out, and 1:54:03.920 --> 1:54:06.720 people want people to know because they want people to 1:54:06.760 --> 1:54:07.840 know that they can do it too. 1:54:08.479 --> 1:54:12.360 Yeah, Like, I so someone had like like a shocking 1:54:12.400 --> 1:54:15.280 these someone had a stupid opinion on the internet. Someone 1:54:15.439 --> 1:54:17.599 had said that, like talking about this makes it dangerous 1:54:17.600 --> 1:54:18.200 to these people. 1:54:18.840 --> 1:54:21.960 No, first of all, I think, I mean, there are 1:54:22.000 --> 1:54:25.280 things that we don't know, that we shouldn't we wouldn't say. 1:54:25.080 --> 1:54:27.000 But like sure, there are things that yeah, yeah, there 1:54:27.000 --> 1:54:29.240 are things that we wouldn't ask about or that people 1:54:29.280 --> 1:54:31.439 wouldn't give us interviews about if you thought they were dangerous. 1:54:31.479 --> 1:54:32.000 Right, But like. 1:54:32.560 --> 1:54:36.200 What makes it safe is that everyone is doing it, right. 1:54:36.280 --> 1:54:39.400 What makes us safe is that there are more of 1:54:39.480 --> 1:54:44.400 us and what people asked us to do with share 1:54:44.440 --> 1:54:47.840 this because they are safe for ifew do it too. Yeah, right, 1:54:48.000 --> 1:54:51.880 there are hens of millions of people who are just 1:54:51.920 --> 1:54:54.280 as outraged as that older lady that we met on 1:54:54.320 --> 1:54:59.320 the first day. And what keeps that lady safe and 1:54:59.440 --> 1:55:02.440 your neighbor safe and her neighbors safe, and people who 1:55:02.520 --> 1:55:06.040 you've never met safe and yourself? Yeah, and yourself is 1:55:06.080 --> 1:55:06.960 you doing it too? 1:55:07.080 --> 1:55:07.200 Right? 1:55:07.280 --> 1:55:11.320 Like if it stops here, if you can't grab migrants 1:55:11.320 --> 1:55:13.920 off the street here, then you can't grab dissidence off 1:55:13.920 --> 1:55:16.240 the street somewhere else, right, And. 1:55:16.160 --> 1:55:20.760 Like you know, we've seen all over graffiti and you know, 1:55:20.920 --> 1:55:24.800 we saw a huge piece of graffiti at the ice 1:55:24.840 --> 1:55:25.360 building base. 1:55:25.640 --> 1:55:27.720 I read it into the mic, Actually it was my 1:55:27.760 --> 1:55:28.520 mic was working. 1:55:29.240 --> 1:55:31.480 First we came to the undocumented, and I said nothing 1:55:31.520 --> 1:55:34.800 because I wasn't undocumented. Then they came for the Somalis, 1:55:35.240 --> 1:55:38.000 and I said nothing because I was not Somali. Then 1:55:38.040 --> 1:55:40.440 they came for the activists, and I said nothing for 1:55:40.600 --> 1:55:41.800 I was not an activist. 1:55:42.240 --> 1:55:43.080 Then they came for me. 1:55:46.880 --> 1:55:50.120 I am so grateful that we live in a generation 1:55:50.240 --> 1:55:51.200 that has read that poem. 1:55:51.920 --> 1:55:54.400 Yeah, you know, and seemingly taken it to heart. 1:55:54.600 --> 1:55:56.680 Yeah, and more people have than I thought, and I 1:55:56.720 --> 1:55:59.480 think I think all the time about solidarity. It was 1:55:59.520 --> 1:56:03.800 shocked in this and you know, obviously the moment that 1:56:03.880 --> 1:56:05.720 makes me cry on the most regular basis is of 1:56:05.760 --> 1:56:07.520 course the charge of the row here him, when the 1:56:07.600 --> 1:56:11.240 riders of Rohan ride to Gondor to face the anyway, 1:56:11.720 --> 1:56:14.360 even though Gondor wasn't there for them. Where was Gondor? 1:56:14.520 --> 1:56:17.640 But part of the reason that I love solidarity so 1:56:17.720 --> 1:56:19.680 much is because, like I keep joking that I'm going 1:56:19.720 --> 1:56:23.960 to write the Misanthropic Introverts Guide to Socialism m because 1:56:24.000 --> 1:56:28.400 like I misanthropic introvert at that heart, right, I also 1:56:28.480 --> 1:56:31.080 love people, right, Yeah, and I most just I love 1:56:31.160 --> 1:56:36.560 most people over there. Yeah. And I grew up not 1:56:36.720 --> 1:56:40.240 proud to say, pretty self interested, right, And I was 1:56:40.320 --> 1:56:44.200 like very lost in my own head and kind of selfish. 1:56:44.280 --> 1:56:48.640 And and I very quickly esponed as meeting anarchists and 1:56:48.680 --> 1:56:53.280 meeting people who believed in responsibility and freedom was like, oh, 1:56:54.120 --> 1:56:57.880 I am safer and more free and more able to 1:56:57.960 --> 1:57:01.560 express my full self if I am part of a 1:57:01.560 --> 1:57:02.760 community of solidarity. 1:57:03.120 --> 1:57:03.440 Yeah. 1:57:03.480 --> 1:57:08.080 And so even though in the immediate moment it is 1:57:08.240 --> 1:57:11.920 more dangerous. Like there's the old joke about like you 1:57:11.920 --> 1:57:13.680 don't have to be faster than the bearer, you just 1:57:13.720 --> 1:57:16.120 have to be faster than your friend. Yeah. That is 1:57:16.160 --> 1:57:17.960 the single worst idea in the world. 1:57:18.440 --> 1:57:20.400 Yeah, because then bands eating people. 1:57:20.680 --> 1:57:23.720 Right, So if there is a monster and you can 1:57:23.760 --> 1:57:26.960 outrun someone, so you think you're safe, you now have 1:57:27.000 --> 1:57:28.680 to be the fastest person. Yeah. 1:57:28.760 --> 1:57:30.640 Yeah, right, you're safe until you're not. 1:57:31.000 --> 1:57:33.480 To be part of a community that turns around and 1:57:33.520 --> 1:57:37.760 fights the monster might be more dangerous for yourself in 1:57:37.760 --> 1:57:44.080 the immediate sense. And being someone who stands up is that. Yeah, 1:57:44.120 --> 1:57:47.160 it is that saying like, well, even though in the 1:57:47.360 --> 1:57:50.840 short term it is more dangerous for me to stand up. 1:57:51.960 --> 1:57:55.280 By having been participated in a society where we stand 1:57:55.360 --> 1:57:57.920 up for each other, I am safer. 1:57:58.200 --> 1:57:58.720 Yeah. 1:57:58.760 --> 1:58:01.200 And so even if that means like my literal death, 1:58:02.160 --> 1:58:05.360 like I will have been safer, even if you get 1:58:05.440 --> 1:58:10.520 like weirdly utilitarian about it, yeah, and aggregate, you are safer. Yeah, 1:58:10.720 --> 1:58:12.800 and so is everyone else. And so it's not a 1:58:12.880 --> 1:58:15.560 it's not a charity, it's a it's a solidarity. 1:58:15.640 --> 1:58:15.800 Yeah. 1:58:15.880 --> 1:58:17.960 No, like solidarity is in a sense it's in your 1:58:17.960 --> 1:58:19.720 own self interest because we want to live in a 1:58:19.760 --> 1:58:22.440 world where people take care of each other, right, not 1:58:22.560 --> 1:58:26.600 just you know, like yeah, just in case we need 1:58:26.640 --> 1:58:29.280 to be taken care of. But because I often think 1:58:29.320 --> 1:58:32.640 about that, I think it's John Stuart mill Right asked, 1:58:32.680 --> 1:58:34.320 not for him, the bell tolls, the bell tolls for 1:58:34.400 --> 1:58:37.880 thee Like what he's saying there is not what's that 1:58:37.960 --> 1:58:43.360 bell ringing. What he's saying is I participate in humanity, 1:58:43.400 --> 1:58:47.840 and so when humanity is devalued in his case talking 1:58:47.880 --> 1:58:52.000 about bell or funery bell, right, when humanity is devalued, 1:58:52.480 --> 1:58:54.120 my humanity is devalued. 1:58:54.400 --> 1:58:54.720 Yeah. 1:58:54.760 --> 1:58:57.760 And therefore, in this case where the bell is ringing 1:58:57.800 --> 1:59:00.560 for me, I am a human and when they undermine 1:59:00.560 --> 1:59:03.640 our common humanity, therefore the undermine this thing that I have. 1:59:04.480 --> 1:59:07.840 And I won't let them do that because I participate 1:59:07.880 --> 1:59:10.720 in humanity. And so as it happens, there's a person 1:59:10.720 --> 1:59:15.240 who's been subjected to inhuman violence, and so I will 1:59:15.240 --> 1:59:17.280 stand up for humanity, and in doing so, I will 1:59:17.320 --> 1:59:19.760 stand up for making a humanity that will stand up 1:59:19.760 --> 1:59:20.000 for me. 1:59:20.240 --> 1:59:22.080 Yeah, And like I. 1:59:22.080 --> 1:59:24.400 Think about a lot because John McCain wrote it in 1:59:24.440 --> 1:59:29.200 an obituary for the last American, Yeah, Lincoln Brigade volunteer. 1:59:29.840 --> 1:59:33.840 And I don't agree with John McCain on anything really, right, 1:59:34.200 --> 1:59:37.800 but I do on that, And like I was thinking 1:59:37.800 --> 1:59:39.840 about that today when I saw what would Ronald Reagan do? 1:59:39.960 --> 1:59:40.080 Guy. 1:59:40.160 --> 1:59:41.920 Yeah, because Jean McKay was the man who believe something. 1:59:41.960 --> 1:59:44.680 He believed things I don't agree with. Yeah, a lot 1:59:44.680 --> 1:59:45.760 of racist shit. Yeah. 1:59:46.120 --> 1:59:48.320 John McCain clearly thought that the Lincoln Brigadiers were on 1:59:48.360 --> 1:59:50.920 the right side of history, right, right, And like Winston 1:59:51.000 --> 1:59:55.600 Churchill's nephew for in the International Brigades, right, folks with 1:59:55.640 --> 1:59:57.280 whom I share very little. 1:59:57.000 --> 1:59:58.000 In terms of politics. 1:59:58.200 --> 2:00:01.640 A lot of British upper class people fought in the 2:00:01.680 --> 2:00:04.560 International Brigades. Yeah, they probably weren't anarchists, but they were 2:00:04.600 --> 2:00:07.120 anti fascists. They were better anti fascists than the people 2:00:07.120 --> 2:00:09.680 who stayed at home. And yeah, you couldn't tweet in 2:00:09.760 --> 2:00:12.480 nineteen thirty six, but they would have been if they could. Yeah, right, 2:00:12.960 --> 2:00:16.280 because they were willing to put their bodies on the line. Yeah, 2:00:16.320 --> 2:00:18.240 and many of them died. Many of them are buried 2:00:18.280 --> 2:00:21.440 in Smain and Spanish people remember them fondly. 2:00:21.600 --> 2:00:22.000 Yeah, right. 2:00:22.080 --> 2:00:26.280 They have annual ceremonies to remember the sacrifice. They made 2:00:26.320 --> 2:00:28.560 before any of the people who are attending those ceremonies 2:00:28.560 --> 2:00:33.320 are alive. And if more people had said, yeah, I'll 2:00:33.320 --> 2:00:36.160 go right like the bells ringing for me. Yeah, I'm 2:00:36.200 --> 2:00:38.240 not going to stand for a world where this happens. 2:00:38.440 --> 2:00:41.160 I'm going to fight for World War it doesn't, then 2:00:41.200 --> 2:00:43.440 we might not have had the Holocaust, right, we might 2:00:43.440 --> 2:00:45.000 not have had the Second World War, It might not 2:00:45.040 --> 2:00:46.080 have had Stalingrad. 2:00:46.240 --> 2:00:49.240 And also all the people who found Stalingrad are the 2:00:49.240 --> 2:00:51.400 reasons that didn't get worse. Yeah yeah right, World War 2:00:51.400 --> 2:00:53.840 two could have been worse. Yeah yeah, yeah, it would 2:00:53.840 --> 2:00:55.080 have been worse if people. 2:00:54.840 --> 2:00:57.880 Hadn't fo yeah right, Yeah, we had staling gred, so 2:00:58.000 --> 2:01:02.120 the Holocaust wasn't. More so that in Europe doesn't speak Germany, right, Like, 2:01:02.720 --> 2:01:04.880 every single one of those people who stood up to 2:01:04.880 --> 2:01:07.600 stop that probably wished that they'd stood up earlier, And 2:01:07.640 --> 2:01:09.600 every single one of those people who stood up earlier 2:01:09.680 --> 2:01:12.320 probably wish the more people that joined them. I think 2:01:12.360 --> 2:01:14.680 about that a lot. It's not news to anyone who 2:01:14.680 --> 2:01:17.080 listened to this that I wrote my PhD underspandied civil warrant. 2:01:17.080 --> 2:01:21.200 Think about it every day. Yeah, if you wanted the 2:01:21.240 --> 2:01:23.160 non dramatic version of all this. You're listening to the 2:01:23.200 --> 2:01:23.920 Wrongs podcast? 2:01:24.000 --> 2:01:27.840 Yeah yeah, But I think a lot about like what 2:01:27.920 --> 2:01:30.840 we should learn from that, right? I translated a piece 2:01:31.080 --> 2:01:34.400 for a Zene Strangers in the Tangled will. 2:01:34.440 --> 2:01:38.560 Oh yeah, it's a publishing collective that I work with. 2:01:38.720 --> 2:01:42.640 And I translated a piece by a Belgian anarchist who's 2:01:42.640 --> 2:01:46.680 referred to as a constellation of acronyms. But Charles Riddle 2:01:46.800 --> 2:01:49.840 was his birth name. Louis Mercier Vega was his name 2:01:49.920 --> 2:01:52.080 he lived with for most of his life. And he 2:01:52.160 --> 2:01:55.320 wrote this piece called Refuting the Legend, where he talks 2:01:55.360 --> 2:01:59.560 about like what he feels that he owes the people 2:01:59.600 --> 2:02:03.480 who die, right, And I think about that lot, Like 2:02:04.080 --> 2:02:05.600 the thing that he comes up with is that he 2:02:05.640 --> 2:02:07.280 owes the people who died the truth so that we 2:02:07.280 --> 2:02:09.960 can learn from it and do better. And he shouldn't 2:02:10.000 --> 2:02:11.880 just make them into heroes. He should make them into 2:02:11.880 --> 2:02:14.160 real people with flaws, so that people can understand their 2:02:14.160 --> 2:02:15.960 flaws and they can know what we. 2:02:15.880 --> 2:02:17.160 Can do better. I think about that a lot. 2:02:17.240 --> 2:02:19.840 Right, so many people have gone before us, so many 2:02:19.960 --> 2:02:24.000 brave people have gone before us, and we owe it 2:02:24.040 --> 2:02:27.920 to them to learn right and I think we have. 2:02:28.120 --> 2:02:29.800 Like when I was thinking about this, when that older 2:02:29.880 --> 2:02:32.120 lady said to us, all, my father was in the 2:02:32.120 --> 2:02:34.600 Second World War, like, and I think about it again, 2:02:34.680 --> 2:02:36.440 I saw the poem today, Like we have to learn 2:02:36.480 --> 2:02:39.520 from that experience, right, and you'd have to stop it now, 2:02:40.400 --> 2:02:40.880 not when it. 2:02:40.960 --> 2:02:43.160 Comes for you. Yeah. Yeah. And the fact that we 2:02:43.520 --> 2:02:46.640 talked to multiple people, some of their families had survived 2:02:46.680 --> 2:02:47.200 the Holocaust. 2:02:47.360 --> 2:02:49.880 Yeah, the reason they were in America. In many cases 2:02:50.520 --> 2:02:52.720 grandparents had come here to feed the art court. 2:02:53.000 --> 2:02:56.000 Who were making comparisons to that. And You're like, they're 2:02:56.040 --> 2:02:59.320 not doing that lightly. And I feel like almost, you know, 2:02:59.360 --> 2:03:01.520 when we talk with the sort of grandiose things, I'm like, 2:03:01.600 --> 2:03:03.600 I almost feel like I'm like, oh, we're talking about 2:03:03.600 --> 2:03:06.560 people with whistles, Like yeah, but we're not. I mean 2:03:06.600 --> 2:03:08.920 we all we're talking about people with whistles. Let's hope 2:03:08.920 --> 2:03:11.160 it stops it whistles, right, And that is what is 2:03:11.200 --> 2:03:14.600 effective right now? And it like is you know, it's 2:03:14.640 --> 2:03:17.800 spreading something and it it's gonna be so interesting to 2:03:17.840 --> 2:03:20.200 see what comes of this. Everything will be changing, you know, 2:03:20.480 --> 2:03:22.840 there's no reason to specifically set up everything that you 2:03:22.960 --> 2:03:25.280 all do in whatever city or town you live in 2:03:25.760 --> 2:03:28.200 exactly the same as they do it here. But there's 2:03:28.240 --> 2:03:31.400 like so many things to learn from them, and more 2:03:31.520 --> 2:03:34.240 than anything else, the thing to learn from them is 2:03:34.400 --> 2:03:38.080 like you just show up. Yeah, it's not that every 2:03:38.160 --> 2:03:41.160 single person in the city has quit their job to 2:03:41.200 --> 2:03:43.960 do this full time, right, Obviously economies don't function like that. 2:03:45.000 --> 2:03:47.640 But you don't have to quit your job to walk 2:03:47.680 --> 2:03:51.480 outside your house when you hear someone yell help, which 2:03:51.520 --> 2:03:54.760 is what is happening with whistles and honking yeah right, 2:03:55.120 --> 2:04:01.040 and just spreading a culture of we take care of 2:04:01.120 --> 2:04:05.200 each other and neighborliness, right, and that is like, weirdly 2:04:05.360 --> 2:04:09.400 fundamentally it is an American cultural idea. We're just bad 2:04:09.440 --> 2:04:11.920 at it. We've kind of forgotten a lot of it. Yeah, 2:04:12.160 --> 2:04:15.280 you know, it's like because obviously isolation is a big 2:04:15.320 --> 2:04:17.360 part of American individualism is a big part of it. 2:04:17.680 --> 2:04:21.240 But like everyone's a little bit happy when they get 2:04:21.280 --> 2:04:24.760 to like, oh you need it, you need a lawnmower. 2:04:24.520 --> 2:04:27.920 Or yeah, when I get to fix my neighbor's truck. Yeah, yeah, 2:04:27.920 --> 2:04:31.080 I love that. Yeah, get out and give some moment 2:04:31.080 --> 2:04:31.480 a change. 2:04:31.520 --> 2:04:33.400 So and one of the things that we to to 2:04:33.440 --> 2:04:35.840 maybe kind of end on, and the thing that I 2:04:35.920 --> 2:04:38.120 want to end on. You know, we're asking people like 2:04:38.200 --> 2:04:41.640 what they wish other people knew, what other people could know. 2:04:41.680 --> 2:04:43.240 And there's a couple of things that people mentioned, and 2:04:43.280 --> 2:04:45.800 we'll write more about this and pump podcasts more about this. 2:04:46.360 --> 2:04:49.440 But one of the things that people mentioned is they 2:04:49.480 --> 2:04:51.960 wish they had started earlier about knowing their neighbors. M hm. 2:04:52.880 --> 2:04:55.520 Obviously it wasn't too late. It's the whole like like 2:04:55.600 --> 2:04:57.560 with any kind of preparedness, right, You're like, you wish 2:04:57.640 --> 2:05:00.680 you so heady, Yeah, but you know now is the 2:05:00.800 --> 2:05:03.040 best you know, yesterday is the best time, and today 2:05:03.120 --> 2:05:05.600 is the next best time. Yeah, right, And like just 2:05:06.200 --> 2:05:08.800 literally knowing them, not necessarily becoming their friends, like a 2:05:08.840 --> 2:05:10.600 lot of people are like no, I wasn't friends with them, 2:05:10.640 --> 2:05:12.920 I just sort of knew them, you know. And then 2:05:13.000 --> 2:05:15.680 also one of the other things that people just as 2:05:15.720 --> 2:05:18.760 another thing people mentioned that they wanted people to know 2:05:19.880 --> 2:05:23.160 is that when you build these networks, you need to 2:05:23.280 --> 2:05:26.960 build autonomy into them at every level. You need to 2:05:27.080 --> 2:05:31.120 build the idea that the person who is following ICE 2:05:31.840 --> 2:05:33.520 is at the end of the day in charge of 2:05:33.600 --> 2:05:36.560 how they do that. Like even if you know, you know, 2:05:36.760 --> 2:05:39.360 people are like, oh, Ice is over here. You can't 2:05:39.400 --> 2:05:44.240 say everyone go do this, you can someone can suggest that, yeah, right. 2:05:44.760 --> 2:05:51.680 But having built autonomy into these networks makes them so 2:05:51.920 --> 2:05:55.120 much stronger, and in an interesting way, partly because it 2:05:55.880 --> 2:05:57.760 makes them less predictable to Ice. 2:05:58.000 --> 2:05:59.880 Right, because you never know what I'm gonna what that 2:06:00.000 --> 2:06:01.880 comfortable when they're not comfortable. 2:06:01.440 --> 2:06:06.400 With Yeah, So like that is basically a diversity of 2:06:06.480 --> 2:06:10.600 tactics makes movements strong. If they don't know how we 2:06:10.680 --> 2:06:13.680 are going to behave they can't you know, and not 2:06:13.840 --> 2:06:17.800 just like if everyone's rowdy, no, like you're going to 2:06:17.840 --> 2:06:20.880 be real combination and when the rowdy and non rowdy 2:06:20.880 --> 2:06:24.360 support people support each other. Anyway, those are the kind 2:06:24.360 --> 2:06:26.760 of last thoughts I have before I actually sit down 2:06:26.840 --> 2:06:29.400 and look at all my notes and write something real. 2:06:30.040 --> 2:06:34.680 Yeah, I think for me, it's everyone here said that 2:06:34.840 --> 2:06:37.000 like that. It was funny when people were like, we 2:06:37.080 --> 2:06:38.680 were like, how did you start organizing? They were like, 2:06:39.400 --> 2:06:41.880 you know, last July we had a blog party and 2:06:41.920 --> 2:06:45.040 a pot luck. Yeah, and it just seemed to be 2:06:45.280 --> 2:06:48.640 just a thing until it became the foundation of this 2:06:48.760 --> 2:06:49.640 thing that exists now. 2:06:49.800 --> 2:06:49.920 Right. 2:06:50.120 --> 2:06:52.160 Yeah, if there's one thing you can do. It won't 2:06:52.240 --> 2:06:54.200 cost you any money, it will take you a little 2:06:54.200 --> 2:06:56.600 bit of time, and it will probably make your life better. 2:06:57.120 --> 2:06:59.879 It is go out on your block and meet your neighbors. 2:07:00.040 --> 2:07:02.680 And I know that can be hard for people. Yeah, 2:07:03.040 --> 2:07:04.600 I know it can be scary. 2:07:04.960 --> 2:07:07.800 But we're talking like trans motherfuckers who are doing this too. 2:07:08.040 --> 2:07:11.240 Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, it's people who are who have 2:07:11.680 --> 2:07:14.240 more at stake than I do. Yeah right, Like I'm 2:07:14.280 --> 2:07:18.080 the cisgender white man for people listening, The best thing 2:07:18.280 --> 2:07:20.280 you can do is start to form community, and it 2:07:20.360 --> 2:07:22.400 could be in so many ways. One thing that like 2:07:22.560 --> 2:07:25.760 I really like to do is like I have, throughout 2:07:25.800 --> 2:07:30.560 my life developed certain skills and certain hobbies, and I 2:07:30.800 --> 2:07:33.600 love to share those with people. You know, if there 2:07:33.680 --> 2:07:36.920 is someone in my neighborhood they've got a bike outside, 2:07:36.920 --> 2:07:38.520 they're trying to fix a puncher, I'm going to go 2:07:38.600 --> 2:07:41.200 help them because I've done that ten thousand times. 2:07:41.360 --> 2:07:42.120 Yeah right. 2:07:42.280 --> 2:07:44.240 Whatever it is that is your thing that you like 2:07:44.360 --> 2:07:46.360 to talk about, that you're good at, that you know about, 2:07:46.800 --> 2:07:48.520 think of a way you could share that with people. 2:07:48.840 --> 2:07:50.760 Maybe you like to bake, maybe you like to knit, 2:07:50.920 --> 2:07:53.520 maybe whatever, it doesn't matter, It doesn't. 2:07:53.360 --> 2:07:55.600 Oh there's people with like free hats and scarves at 2:07:55.640 --> 2:07:56.000 these things. 2:07:56.120 --> 2:07:58.240 Yeah, yeah, yeah, you could just be the person who 2:07:58.320 --> 2:08:01.440 knits the scarves. That's your way to contribute. If that's 2:08:01.440 --> 2:08:03.560 your way to meet your neighbors, right, put on a 2:08:03.640 --> 2:08:05.800 knitting circle, to put on a baking thing. I like 2:08:05.880 --> 2:08:08.360 to grow plants, so I'm always growing plants, and I'm 2:08:08.800 --> 2:08:11.200 stoked when my neighbors stop buy and say, hey, I 2:08:11.360 --> 2:08:13.840 really like your bass or plant and I want to 2:08:13.920 --> 2:08:15.920 make which is how they pronounce it when they yes, 2:08:16.000 --> 2:08:17.879 they do, yeah, when they say to me, because otherwise 2:08:17.880 --> 2:08:19.640 I look at them and say, get out of my home, 2:08:20.760 --> 2:08:22.720 you know, and they want if they want to make something, 2:08:23.440 --> 2:08:25.240 I give them some, right, or if they say, hey, 2:08:25.560 --> 2:08:27.200 I just need a couple of tomatoes, and I noticed, 2:08:27.240 --> 2:08:28.480 of course I'm going to give them right. 2:08:29.680 --> 2:08:30.400 Whatever that is. 2:08:30.840 --> 2:08:32.680 Your neighbors away for a couple of weeks. Hey, do 2:08:32.720 --> 2:08:34.280 you want me to look after the house? Your car 2:08:34.360 --> 2:08:36.600 won't start? Let me jump it, right. I have one 2:08:36.640 --> 2:08:39.160 of those little jumper packs. I love to use a 2:08:39.160 --> 2:08:40.040 little jumper pack. 2:08:40.200 --> 2:08:41.960 Oh yeah. If you have a tool and someone needs 2:08:42.040 --> 2:08:44.040 the tool, having a multi tool on you is the 2:08:44.120 --> 2:08:46.640 best way to feel good. All the time because someone's like, 2:08:46.840 --> 2:08:49.040 oh I wish I had a rent or not I 2:08:49.080 --> 2:08:51.240 wish i'd yeah, yeah. 2:08:51.120 --> 2:08:54.200 And there you go, like Superman do those things now. 2:08:54.240 --> 2:08:56.000 I know we have Margaret and I both hop on 2:08:56.080 --> 2:08:59.920 about this, but like, this is how you build a 2:09:00.080 --> 2:09:03.000 better world. It starts on your block. It starts by 2:09:03.040 --> 2:09:05.920 building a better neighborhood, building a better street, building a 2:09:05.960 --> 2:09:09.160 better apartment complex. Lived in an apartment complex. It could 2:09:09.160 --> 2:09:11.280 be hard to see people in an apartment complexes because 2:09:11.320 --> 2:09:13.080 people sort of get in the lift and put the 2:09:13.240 --> 2:09:15.400 look at the floor, put a little sign up, just 2:09:15.480 --> 2:09:17.320 be like, hey, we're going to have a pot. Look, Hey, 2:09:18.160 --> 2:09:20.600 the little bit in between the pavement and the road's 2:09:20.640 --> 2:09:22.400 kind of fucked up. Anyone else want to help me 2:09:22.480 --> 2:09:24.240 put some plants in it this springtime? 2:09:24.800 --> 2:09:24.960 You know? 2:09:25.240 --> 2:09:29.800 Yeah, whatever it is that is your thing, start using 2:09:29.920 --> 2:09:32.200 that to build community, because it's community that's going to 2:09:32.240 --> 2:09:32.760 get you through this. 2:09:33.320 --> 2:09:35.400 Yeah. And it's like, you know, I don't always like 2:09:35.480 --> 2:09:37.640 targeting to people, but I just when I'm in a 2:09:37.680 --> 2:09:40.880 new place, I'm just like, hey, I just moved here, 2:09:41.680 --> 2:09:44.040 nice to meet you. I'm so and so. Do you 2:09:44.160 --> 2:09:46.400 need my phone number? And I can do the kind 2:09:46.440 --> 2:09:48.320 of like, you know, I want you to my phone 2:09:48.360 --> 2:09:49.720 number because I want you to call me instead of 2:09:49.720 --> 2:09:53.600 the cops. I'm being too loud, right, But like you're 2:09:53.640 --> 2:09:55.080 going to make a little bit of a faux pas 2:09:55.360 --> 2:09:58.880 in certain communities by being like, hey, we should know 2:09:58.960 --> 2:10:01.680 each other. Yeah, but usually just to hey we should 2:10:01.800 --> 2:10:04.480 know each other isn't actually offending as many people as 2:10:04.520 --> 2:10:04.760 you think. 2:10:04.920 --> 2:10:06.800 Yeah, Like I know a lot of people don't live 2:10:06.840 --> 2:10:08.640 in cities too, or some people were like I grew 2:10:08.720 --> 2:10:12.120 up very very rural. Yeah, but actually like we had 2:10:12.200 --> 2:10:14.720 to know each other because like there wasn't really anyone 2:10:14.800 --> 2:10:15.520 else you could go. 2:10:15.640 --> 2:10:17.560 Oh yeah in my mind, I'm like when I live rural, 2:10:17.600 --> 2:10:19.400 and I'm like, that's how you have to know people. 2:10:19.600 --> 2:10:23.520 Like yeah, like I remember someone's horse fell in wealthy 2:10:23.680 --> 2:10:25.760 be bad a swimming pool, Like, yeah, I lifted the 2:10:25.800 --> 2:10:26.720 horse out by myself. 2:10:26.960 --> 2:10:29.120 Oh yeah, my neighbors pick out the pools walking out 2:10:29.160 --> 2:10:30.720 of my property. Yeah, it's not as big of a 2:10:30.760 --> 2:10:33.400 deal as lowers falling in, but just constantly my neighbors 2:10:33.480 --> 2:10:34.880 like my pig got out again? 2:10:35.600 --> 2:10:38.520 Yeah, like like were there are a million reasons why 2:10:38.800 --> 2:10:41.040 in rural areas or I'd hope you were you would 2:10:41.120 --> 2:10:44.040 know people anyway. But again, like, hey, I'm so and 2:10:44.120 --> 2:10:46.480 so I just moved here. I just wanted to say, Hi, 2:10:47.040 --> 2:10:50.080 maybe you bake something whatever, take something over. Most people 2:10:50.120 --> 2:10:51.040 aren't going to be mad at you. 2:10:51.360 --> 2:10:57.040 Yeah. Well that's kind of our preliminary stuff and we're 2:10:57.080 --> 2:10:58.560 going to be doing so much more with it, but 2:10:58.640 --> 2:11:00.560 we just kind of wanted to get some ideas out 2:11:00.760 --> 2:11:03.280 while we were both in the same place in this 2:11:04.000 --> 2:11:10.880 shockingly beautiful city. Yeah, around people who are so fucking inspiring, Like, yeah, 2:11:11.920 --> 2:11:16.160 everyone we talk to is so inspiring. And even if 2:11:16.240 --> 2:11:20.120 the like the tragedy of it, you know, I feel 2:11:20.240 --> 2:11:23.120 so weird being like, here's the hopeful stuff. When I'm 2:11:23.200 --> 2:11:29.240 like we're describing it very horrible land of kidnappers, We're like, 2:11:29.560 --> 2:11:32.000 it's just like literally kidnappers have descended upon the city 2:11:32.040 --> 2:11:37.200 and like to kidnap people that will fund the kidnappings. Yeah, 2:11:37.520 --> 2:11:39.760 for cool people did cool stuff. That's the core idea 2:11:39.840 --> 2:11:41.600 of the show is that when people, you know, it's 2:11:41.600 --> 2:11:44.000 the intro it's when people are trying to do bad things. 2:11:44.040 --> 2:11:47.120 There's people trying to do good things. And so that's why, uh, 2:11:48.160 --> 2:11:50.920 taking a break from history content talk about something that's 2:11:50.960 --> 2:11:54.640 just fucking happening right now. It is cool people doing 2:11:54.720 --> 2:11:58.720 cool stuff up here, and or maybe more than cool 2:11:58.720 --> 2:11:59.680 because it's freezing. 2:12:00.120 --> 2:12:02.120 Yeah, freezing people doing cool stuff. 2:12:02.280 --> 2:12:05.960 Yeah. Feel free to workshop at home, Yeah, a better 2:12:06.000 --> 2:12:09.280 way to do it. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. 2:12:09.400 --> 2:12:11.560 I'm coming back from a place more hopeful than I left. 2:12:11.640 --> 2:12:15.760 I know, that's my thing that I do. But like, 2:12:16.560 --> 2:12:18.760 I really believe that in the darkest times we can 2:12:18.800 --> 2:12:21.680 build beautiful things. And I don't believe that any less 2:12:21.720 --> 2:12:24.440 after being here. Yeah, that's great thing about being a goth, 2:12:25.880 --> 2:12:26.920 beauty and the dark stuff. 2:12:26.960 --> 2:12:30.320 That's like. Anyway, we will talk to you all, just 2:12:30.560 --> 2:12:33.800 for me next week and for James, who knows, probably 2:12:33.920 --> 2:12:37.200 freaking tomorrow. Yeah, a couple of days here. Yeah yeah, 2:12:38.200 --> 2:12:42.040 yeah that my job is hard anyway. Yeah, good luck 2:12:42.120 --> 2:12:45.720 with everyone, and take care of your neighbors and fuck ice. 2:12:46.320 --> 2:12:46.560 Yeah. 2:12:50.800 --> 2:12:52.880 Thanks everyone for listening to all of this. And if 2:12:52.960 --> 2:12:54.920 at the end of this you are thinking that you 2:12:54.960 --> 2:12:56.720 would like to help some of the people who are 2:12:56.800 --> 2:12:59.280 on the ground, we asked people that we trusted on 2:12:59.400 --> 2:13:03.280 the ground to provide us with links to different fundraisers 2:13:03.320 --> 2:13:06.400 and basically, you know, I never share a fundraiser unless 2:13:06.400 --> 2:13:08.160 I can support it with my whole heart, and I 2:13:08.200 --> 2:13:10.880 would support it with my own wallet. The links themselves 2:13:10.880 --> 2:13:12.920 are going to be in the show notes, but there's 2:13:12.920 --> 2:13:16.560 a couple different ones. There's rent Support for Neighbors and Phillips, 2:13:16.600 --> 2:13:19.080 which is a neighborhood rent support for neighbors in Central 2:13:19.600 --> 2:13:23.920 Rent support for neighbors, and Powderhorn Supplies for political art making, 2:13:24.480 --> 2:13:29.000 Protective gear for legal observers, diapers and menstrual supplies is 2:13:29.040 --> 2:13:33.400 another fundraiser. Abolish ice shirts, including the shirt I am 2:13:33.480 --> 2:13:37.320 wearing right now as I record this, North Star Frontline 2:13:37.360 --> 2:13:41.560 Street Medics and the Twin Cities swol A tariot Ale 2:13:41.680 --> 2:13:44.440 fund and they'll be links to both Venmo and cash 2:13:44.440 --> 2:13:47.400 app for that one. Anyway, thank you to everyone, and 2:13:47.520 --> 2:13:48.280 take care of each other. 2:14:00.840 --> 2:14:03.440 Hello, and welcome back to It could happen here. I'm 2:14:03.480 --> 2:14:06.120 your occasional host, Molly Conger, and today we're going to 2:14:06.200 --> 2:14:11.640 be talking about something that is happening here, doxing Nazis. Specifically, 2:14:11.680 --> 2:14:14.320 I'm talking to Christmasias about his new book, To Catch 2:14:14.320 --> 2:14:18.000 a Fascist, The Fight to Expose the Radical Right. Chris, 2:14:18.040 --> 2:14:19.040 thanks for coming on today. 2:14:19.320 --> 2:14:21.120 Oh my god, Molly, it's such a pleasure to be here. 2:14:21.160 --> 2:14:21.440 Thank you. 2:14:22.160 --> 2:14:24.320 I'm so excited to talk about this book. You sent 2:14:24.360 --> 2:14:26.640 me a copy of it recently. I don't think I 2:14:26.720 --> 2:14:29.240 remembered until I was reading it and I talked to 2:14:29.320 --> 2:14:30.360 you while you were writing it. 2:14:30.840 --> 2:14:33.280 Yes, yes, yes you did. Yeah, yeah, you're one of 2:14:33.320 --> 2:14:36.400 the many, many people I talked to, and you are 2:14:36.560 --> 2:14:39.560 quoted in the book. In fact, I can't remember if 2:14:39.560 --> 2:14:40.840 you told it to me or if I cite it 2:14:40.880 --> 2:14:45.960 from somewhere else, But you once compared the research that 2:14:46.080 --> 2:14:53.280 goes into doxing unmasking nazis to basically investigating your ex's 2:14:53.440 --> 2:14:57.520 Instagram account, which I thought was an amazing comparison, because 2:14:57.520 --> 2:14:59.920 you're basically saying, like, this type of work is excess 2:15:00.240 --> 2:15:01.760 if you've done that type of slew thing. 2:15:01.960 --> 2:15:04.560 Which is not something I'm admitting to doing. I got 2:15:04.640 --> 2:15:06.760 brazy about my exes. I'm just saying it is something 2:15:07.120 --> 2:15:09.480 many women are very good at, exactly, Yes, and they 2:15:09.480 --> 2:15:11.040 don't realize it's a transferable skill. 2:15:12.600 --> 2:15:13.280 Yeah, exactly. 2:15:13.760 --> 2:15:15.720 But for those who don't know, christ mrher Mathias has 2:15:15.720 --> 2:15:19.840 been covering the far right for more than a decade, right, yeah, yeah, 2:15:20.120 --> 2:15:21.920 you were with Huffington Post for a long time, and 2:15:22.000 --> 2:15:23.520 you've been independent for a couple of years. 2:15:24.160 --> 2:15:24.360 Yeah. 2:15:24.480 --> 2:15:27.200 So I was at huff Post for like almost fourteen years, 2:15:27.240 --> 2:15:29.840 and about ten of those I know, it's wild, and 2:15:30.000 --> 2:15:32.480 ten of those years I was covering the far right, 2:15:32.560 --> 2:15:37.160 which is how I ended up in Charlottesville in twenty 2:15:37.240 --> 2:15:40.160 seventeen for Unite the Right rally, which is something Mollie 2:15:40.160 --> 2:15:43.520 and I have talked a lot about before. And Yeah, 2:15:43.560 --> 2:15:46.160 after I got back from Charlottesville, my editor at the 2:15:46.240 --> 2:15:49.280 time was like, this is your beat now covering the 2:15:49.320 --> 2:15:51.200 far right. So I was kind of like among this 2:15:51.400 --> 2:15:55.680 like initial crew of like digital media journalists who suddenly 2:15:55.720 --> 2:15:58.440 found themselves on the like the right wing extremism beat. 2:15:59.080 --> 2:16:02.760 And pretty quickly, you know, I realized while I was 2:16:02.840 --> 2:16:06.760 trying to unmask people in the far right that there 2:16:06.800 --> 2:16:10.000 were already people doing that work and they were anti 2:16:10.040 --> 2:16:11.200 fascist activists. 2:16:11.600 --> 2:16:14.000 Yeah, and so to prepare for today, I listened to 2:16:14.400 --> 2:16:16.480 a couple of interviews you've done about the book so far. 2:16:16.600 --> 2:16:18.880 It comes out first week of February. 2:16:18.840 --> 2:16:21.080 February third. Yeah, We're we're close. Yeah. 2:16:21.160 --> 2:16:21.320 Yeah. 2:16:21.640 --> 2:16:23.600 I was listening to those interviews and I was thinking about, 2:16:24.360 --> 2:16:26.520 you know, this is a different audience like you don't 2:16:26.520 --> 2:16:28.400 need to explain to people who listened to it could 2:16:28.400 --> 2:16:30.440 happen here when Antifa is or. 2:16:30.560 --> 2:16:31.480 What docxing is. 2:16:31.920 --> 2:16:37.600 Yes, but I think the book very delicately and unapologetically 2:16:37.959 --> 2:16:40.840 explains those things to people who might be afraid of them. 2:16:41.280 --> 2:16:43.880 Yeah, I mean that was the entire intent of the book, 2:16:43.879 --> 2:16:46.560 and I'm so glad you picked up on that. You know, 2:16:46.840 --> 2:16:49.600 I think I kind of imagined writing this book for 2:16:49.800 --> 2:16:53.760 my parents, for like kind of you know, boomer liberals, 2:16:53.840 --> 2:16:57.000 if you will, or centrists and other people just I 2:16:57.080 --> 2:17:01.640 think that have a lot of misapprehension about Antifa understandably, 2:17:02.080 --> 2:17:03.680 And you know, the kind of the goal of the 2:17:03.720 --> 2:17:07.840 book was to to demystify what antifa is, explain it 2:17:07.920 --> 2:17:12.959 to a wider audience, and to make kind of more 2:17:13.080 --> 2:17:18.359 radical politics that Antifa represents more palatable to a wider audience. 2:17:19.120 --> 2:17:21.360 And the way I tried to do that was to 2:17:21.520 --> 2:17:23.680 make the book a bit of a thriller so that 2:17:23.840 --> 2:17:27.840 was accessible, and make it into like a spy narrative. 2:17:28.560 --> 2:17:32.760 And I'm hoping that the very kind of average reader 2:17:33.640 --> 2:17:35.800 will be able to dive into this and come out 2:17:35.879 --> 2:17:40.880 understanding more radical leftist politics that maybe wasn't accessible to 2:17:40.959 --> 2:17:41.360 them before. 2:17:41.760 --> 2:17:43.960 That's such a hard needle to threat because like I 2:17:44.040 --> 2:17:46.360 could give this book to my dad, right right, But 2:17:46.480 --> 2:17:50.040 I also enjoyed reading it. Yay, good for the listener. 2:17:50.320 --> 2:17:51.760 You should go out and get this. It's not just 2:17:51.800 --> 2:17:54.160 for your dads. You will like it to the cold 2:17:54.200 --> 2:17:57.640 open right, like the introductory chapter, start sort of in 2:17:57.800 --> 2:17:59.800 media res with your framework of the book. 2:17:59.879 --> 2:17:59.959 Right. 2:18:00.120 --> 2:18:04.120 This Vincent Washington, this infiltrator inside Patriot Front. And the 2:18:04.200 --> 2:18:07.600 thing is I know about Vincent Washington. I read the 2:18:07.760 --> 2:18:11.240 leaks that Vincent was responsible for. I was actually the 2:18:11.280 --> 2:18:14.760 one who told Thomas Rousseau in person about the leak. 2:18:14.920 --> 2:18:16.360 What I didn't know that book? 2:18:16.520 --> 2:18:20.360 Oh yes, for the listener, Vincent Washington is not a 2:18:20.440 --> 2:18:22.440 real person. Cully is a real person, but that's not 2:18:22.480 --> 2:18:25.080 his real name. Yes, right, So within Patriot Front, they 2:18:25.080 --> 2:18:27.440 all get a pseudonym and then their last name is 2:18:27.520 --> 2:18:30.320 like their state. So Vincent Washington was a man whose 2:18:30.360 --> 2:18:33.840 name is not Vincent, who might be from Washington, and 2:18:33.920 --> 2:18:36.400 he infiltrated Patriot Front and he leaked all of their 2:18:36.520 --> 2:18:40.280 rocket chats. And the day that leak was published, it 2:18:40.440 --> 2:18:43.720 was January twenty first, twenty twenty two. Yes, it was 2:18:43.760 --> 2:18:46.160 the day of the March for Life. Yes, So Patriot 2:18:46.200 --> 2:18:49.920 Front was in Washington, DC, and I had a suspicion 2:18:50.400 --> 2:18:52.720 that Patriot Front would be there. They don't announce that 2:18:52.760 --> 2:18:53.840 the kind of thing ahead of time, but I was 2:18:53.879 --> 2:18:55.400 pretty sure they were going to be there. So I 2:18:55.480 --> 2:18:57.600 went to Washington, d C. And we were standing outside 2:18:57.640 --> 2:19:00.760 the National Archives and Thomas Rousseau had a little bullhorn. 2:19:00.800 --> 2:19:02.360 He had like twenty or thirty guys and the little 2:19:02.400 --> 2:19:05.640 matching fits, and they were so tickled with themselves. They 2:19:05.680 --> 2:19:07.960 were so tickled. People were just falling all over themselves 2:19:08.000 --> 2:19:11.120 because these like scary Nazis were on the street. And 2:19:11.280 --> 2:19:13.560 I actually I have a video. I'll embed it in 2:19:13.640 --> 2:19:14.279 the final. 2:19:14.160 --> 2:19:17.800 Oh my god, Molly, Hey guys, your rocket. 2:19:17.560 --> 2:19:23.000 Chat just got leads on DIA secrets. Unicorn Ryan just 2:19:23.160 --> 2:19:27.600 dropped your rocket Chat everything, all your dms, all your 2:19:27.720 --> 2:19:33.720 dms Matadeia, the video we're just gonna make fun of you. 2:19:33.879 --> 2:19:34.680 The videos that you. 2:19:34.760 --> 2:19:38.080 Send your network leaders, those all have Metadeia and Unicorn 2:19:38.160 --> 2:19:39.279 Ryan is posting. 2:19:39.000 --> 2:19:39.680 Them right now. 2:19:40.879 --> 2:19:43.400 Holy shit, Molly, how did I not ask you about 2:19:43.400 --> 2:19:44.039 this for the book? 2:19:44.080 --> 2:19:45.840 I could have put this in there. Oh, my god. 2:19:46.680 --> 2:19:48.520 It was incredible because you know, Thomas were so later 2:19:48.680 --> 2:19:51.640 was like, oh, it's like not big. He looked scared. 2:19:51.800 --> 2:19:53.360 Oh my god, he looked scared. 2:19:53.520 --> 2:19:54.480 Yeah, it's like I know. 2:19:54.600 --> 2:19:58.120 About Vincent, but seeing the story from his side of 2:19:58.200 --> 2:20:02.080 things was so different. Like I use these leaks all 2:20:02.120 --> 2:20:05.120 the time, but I, you know, never get to know 2:20:05.320 --> 2:20:06.200 about the leaker. 2:20:06.560 --> 2:20:10.520 Oh my god. Yeah, that's incredible. Yeah. So again, this 2:20:10.640 --> 2:20:12.400 is kind of my goal for the book, was that 2:20:13.080 --> 2:20:15.360 these kind of anti fascist spies, and I feel like 2:20:15.440 --> 2:20:18.840 most Americans don't know that Antifa had so many spies 2:20:18.879 --> 2:20:21.879 over the last ten years that were infiltrating these groups. 2:20:22.560 --> 2:20:26.680 You know, they were the hidden hand behind thousands of 2:20:26.920 --> 2:20:31.959 news stories because they collected all of this invaluable intelligence, 2:20:32.000 --> 2:20:35.680 you know, hundreds and hundreds of gigabytes of private messages 2:20:35.720 --> 2:20:38.560 that these white supremacists were sending to each other, which 2:20:38.600 --> 2:20:42.000 then were posted on a database on Unicorn Riot, which 2:20:42.240 --> 2:20:45.840 you know, wonderful researchers like yourself and other people used 2:20:46.080 --> 2:20:50.040 to mine for clues and details that they could use 2:20:50.200 --> 2:20:56.640 to identify all of these previously sseunonymous Nazis. So for example, 2:20:56.720 --> 2:20:58.800 you know, and I wish I could have seen the 2:20:58.840 --> 2:21:00.879 look on Thomas's face. I can't wait to see that video. 2:21:01.400 --> 2:21:06.920 But yeah, I mean, like they released I believe it 2:21:07.000 --> 2:21:10.039 was like four hundred gigabytes worth of rocket Chat messages 2:21:10.400 --> 2:21:12.800 and you know, videos and photos and stuff. 2:21:13.000 --> 2:21:14.840 With metadata still attached to them. 2:21:14.879 --> 2:21:17.640 Exactly with metadata still attached to them, which we'll get 2:21:17.680 --> 2:21:18.840 to in a second. By the way, there's a good 2:21:18.840 --> 2:21:23.000 story about the metadata, but you know, ultimately that data 2:21:23.120 --> 2:21:27.320 would contribute to doc saying unmasking I think about eighty 2:21:27.400 --> 2:21:31.680 members of Patriot Front, which is just remarkable, and I think, 2:21:32.320 --> 2:21:33.680 you know, part of the story I was trying to 2:21:33.720 --> 2:21:37.160 tell was that these anonymous anti fascists who are doing 2:21:37.240 --> 2:21:39.840 this work, you know, anonymously, like they're not doing it 2:21:40.040 --> 2:21:43.440 for acclaim or glory. They're doing it because they see 2:21:43.480 --> 2:21:48.240 it as a form of community self defense. And you know, 2:21:48.320 --> 2:21:51.520 what they were doing, you know, I think outstripped the 2:21:51.640 --> 2:21:56.000 efforts of major media news organizations, you know, academic institutions, 2:21:56.000 --> 2:21:59.880 civil rights organizations, oh no doubt, law enforcement definitely, like 2:22:00.120 --> 2:22:04.640 they were doing more work to destabilize and destroy far 2:22:04.760 --> 2:22:07.480 right groups. Then I would argue, really anyone else. 2:22:07.959 --> 2:22:10.280 And then this subsequent work that builds off of that 2:22:10.480 --> 2:22:13.879 by civil rights groups filing these like Large Klan Act lawsuits. 2:22:14.240 --> 2:22:17.280 Those lawsuits don't exist without these leaks. Sins v. Kessler 2:22:17.320 --> 2:22:19.880 doesn't exist without these leaks. The three lawsuits against Patriot 2:22:19.920 --> 2:22:21.279 Front don't exist without. 2:22:21.040 --> 2:22:22.640 These leaks, Yes, exactly. 2:22:23.080 --> 2:22:24.800 And I've been thinking a lot about this this week, 2:22:25.240 --> 2:22:27.960 right because it was the anniversary of Richard Spencer getting 2:22:27.959 --> 2:22:29.240 punched in the face five years ago. 2:22:29.320 --> 2:22:30.720 Happy anniversary, Happy. 2:22:30.520 --> 2:22:32.840 Anniversary to those who celebrate. And that was a beautiful moment. 2:22:32.920 --> 2:22:34.840 And I think we can all agree that it's so 2:22:34.959 --> 2:22:37.000 funny to watch Richard Spencer get punched in the face. 2:22:37.720 --> 2:22:40.040 But every year you see people say and that's what 2:22:40.080 --> 2:22:41.840 stopped him, and he was never heard from again and 2:22:41.920 --> 2:22:43.120 he shut up forever after that. 2:22:43.640 --> 2:22:46.000 Right, that's not true. That's not true at all. 2:22:46.440 --> 2:22:48.200 Like I love, I love the guy that punched him 2:22:48.200 --> 2:22:50.680 in the face, but that didn't end it, Yes exactly. 2:22:50.800 --> 2:22:51.680 An infiltrator did. 2:22:51.800 --> 2:22:56.400 An infiltrator did, And I think again, you know, kind 2:22:56.400 --> 2:22:58.840 of the goal of the book is that most Antifa 2:22:59.000 --> 2:23:03.200 in the public imagination is most often associated with Nazi punching, 2:23:03.400 --> 2:23:05.840 and you know, for good reason, Like most people learned 2:23:05.840 --> 2:23:09.520 about Antifa in twenty seventeen from videos like the video 2:23:09.560 --> 2:23:12.560 of Richard Spencer getting punched. It's so interesting to look 2:23:12.600 --> 2:23:15.960 back and realize that no one in America knew what 2:23:16.040 --> 2:23:19.119 the fuck Antifa was before twenty seventeen, and then by 2:23:19.160 --> 2:23:22.480 the end of that year, everyone had heard that word 2:23:22.560 --> 2:23:23.240 or knew that word. 2:23:23.360 --> 2:23:24.120 It was the boogeyman. 2:23:24.480 --> 2:23:26.040 Yeah, it was the Boogeyman, and it was added to 2:23:26.760 --> 2:23:30.840 the Webster Dictionary. Oxford Dictionary shortlisted it for word of 2:23:30.879 --> 2:23:34.080 the Year. Like it's a remarkable climb for you know, 2:23:34.400 --> 2:23:38.040 a piece of language, a word. But the like viral 2:23:38.120 --> 2:23:42.240 videos that catapulted that word into the lexicon kind of 2:23:42.280 --> 2:23:44.760 obscured the bulk of the work that Antifa was doing, 2:23:45.280 --> 2:23:49.880 which was espionage and intelligence gathering and kind of like 2:23:49.959 --> 2:23:55.280 the creation of this remarkable underground informal intelligence agency that 2:23:55.680 --> 2:23:59.560 like just completely fucked up so many fascist groups, and like, 2:24:00.240 --> 2:24:03.560 you know, at the end of twenty seventeen, Spencer famously 2:24:03.760 --> 2:24:07.320 said Antifa is winning, and he was referring not only 2:24:07.360 --> 2:24:10.440 to getting punched everywhere he went, but to these very 2:24:10.480 --> 2:24:14.840 efforts to identify all of his followers, who knew that 2:24:15.080 --> 2:24:17.920 if their Nazism was public, they wouldn't be able to 2:24:18.280 --> 2:24:20.120 operate in public life, they wouldn't be able to hold 2:24:20.120 --> 2:24:22.199 down a job, and so on and so forth. 2:24:22.400 --> 2:24:25.040 Because I guess both the Nazi punching and the Nazi 2:24:25.160 --> 2:24:28.840 docsing they are different means to a similar end, which 2:24:28.879 --> 2:24:32.200 is to enact a consequence, right, so that if you're 2:24:32.200 --> 2:24:34.160 going to be a Nazi in public, there's going to 2:24:34.160 --> 2:24:36.720 be a fucking consequence, whether that means you get decked 2:24:36.760 --> 2:24:39.720 in the jaw, or it means all of your neighbors 2:24:40.200 --> 2:24:42.480 know what you said online, your mom knows what you 2:24:42.560 --> 2:24:44.480 said online, like people know who you are. 2:24:45.200 --> 2:24:47.720 Yes, exactly the way I always describe it is the 2:24:47.800 --> 2:24:50.800 digital equivalent of ripping the white hood off of a klansman. 2:24:51.240 --> 2:24:54.879 You know, back in the eighties and nineties, anti racist activists, 2:24:55.040 --> 2:24:58.360 like with groups like Anti Racist Action, you know, would 2:24:58.480 --> 2:25:02.160 post flyers in namehoods that said meet your local Nazi, right, 2:25:02.480 --> 2:25:06.000 And what they were doing was not only warning the 2:25:06.080 --> 2:25:09.080 community that that guy down the block is liable to 2:25:09.120 --> 2:25:12.000 commit violence against people you know and love, but like 2:25:12.120 --> 2:25:14.360 you were getting at, they were creating a social cost 2:25:14.520 --> 2:25:18.720 for being a fascist. They're basically leveraging an existing societal 2:25:18.800 --> 2:25:25.039 taboo against explicit white supremacy and fascism to ensure a consequence. 2:25:25.160 --> 2:25:28.480 It basically says, it tells people, if you're going to 2:25:28.560 --> 2:25:30.880 join one of these groups, we're going to name and 2:25:30.959 --> 2:25:34.480 shame you. You're going to lose your job, your girlfriend's 2:25:34.520 --> 2:25:37.480 going to dump you, you might lose your apartment, your family, 2:25:37.840 --> 2:25:39.560 you might not want to talk to you anymore, like 2:25:39.640 --> 2:25:42.120 you're going to be a pariah. And I think it 2:25:42.360 --> 2:25:46.119 was really effective. I mean, you know, obviously, the animating 2:25:46.200 --> 2:25:48.959 question of my book, of course, is what happens when 2:25:49.040 --> 2:25:50.840 that taboo starts to disappear? 2:25:51.080 --> 2:25:52.320 But it's not gone yet. 2:25:52.560 --> 2:25:53.160 It's not gone. 2:25:53.320 --> 2:25:55.000 Some of the other interviews I was looking at, people 2:25:55.040 --> 2:25:57.600 are saying, well, is there value in this anymore? Because 2:25:58.040 --> 2:25:59.600 you can work for the State Department and be a 2:25:59.680 --> 2:26:01.840 Nazi now right, you can do the White House social 2:26:01.879 --> 2:26:03.840 media being Nazien now like, is there still any value 2:26:03.879 --> 2:26:05.880 in this? And I think the answer is obviously yes. 2:26:06.240 --> 2:26:06.440 Yeah. 2:26:06.560 --> 2:26:10.400 They wouldn't wear masks if they didn't have to wear masks, yes, right, 2:26:10.480 --> 2:26:12.560 Like some of them aren't mask off quote unquote, but 2:26:12.640 --> 2:26:16.080 like not all of them. Patriot Front still marches in masks. 2:26:16.200 --> 2:26:19.600 Ice agents still abduct children in masks. They're covering their 2:26:19.640 --> 2:26:21.199 faces because they know what they're doing is wrong. 2:26:21.560 --> 2:26:24.600 Yes, exactly, And I think it's also as much of 2:26:24.680 --> 2:26:26.880 a mask off moment as we might be living in 2:26:26.959 --> 2:26:29.800 in some ways. You know, this act of research and 2:26:29.879 --> 2:26:34.920 identifying the threat is still so important because it's you know, 2:26:35.280 --> 2:26:39.720 preserving that societal taboo. It's still saying that that social 2:26:39.800 --> 2:26:42.800 cost is something we still want to preserve, and it 2:26:42.959 --> 2:26:46.200 is you know, I think very interesting that the anti 2:26:46.280 --> 2:26:50.280 fascist work now is kind of pivoting towards identifying ICE 2:26:50.320 --> 2:26:54.960 agents and MAGA, and the Trump administration is horrified of 2:26:55.040 --> 2:26:58.840 this tactic of identifying ICE agents, and for good reason, 2:26:59.000 --> 2:27:01.760 because you know the story I try to tell my book, 2:27:01.920 --> 2:27:05.280 like this tactic played a really big part in destroying 2:27:05.320 --> 2:27:09.240 fascist groups. They know that it could destroy their ethnic 2:27:09.320 --> 2:27:12.400 cleansing projects. And when you look at the polls like 2:27:13.200 --> 2:27:16.720 since reine a good, the favorability for ICE is just plummeted, 2:27:17.160 --> 2:27:21.640 and the support for slogans like abolish ICE have skyrocketed. 2:27:22.120 --> 2:27:26.840 So like that societal taboo against kind of white supremacismsm right, 2:27:27.200 --> 2:27:29.959 that's being displayed by ICE is definitely still there. 2:27:30.480 --> 2:27:32.360 And you ground this sort of in the history too. 2:27:32.440 --> 2:27:34.040 In the book, in the chapter about sort of the 2:27:34.200 --> 2:27:38.320 history of unmasking, whether that's with digital docsing or you know, 2:27:38.680 --> 2:27:41.440 identifying members of the Klan, there was still a social 2:27:41.560 --> 2:27:44.840 cost of being identified as a Klansman in the nineteen twenties. Yeah, 2:27:45.280 --> 2:27:47.480 like there was there was no social taboo against being 2:27:47.600 --> 2:27:49.920 racist in the twenties, but there was a social cost 2:27:50.000 --> 2:27:52.000 to being identified as a clansman. And I think we're 2:27:52.160 --> 2:27:54.880 we find ourselves in the same unfortunate place. 2:27:55.120 --> 2:27:56.800 Yeah, totally, I mean, and honestly, that was one of 2:27:56.840 --> 2:27:59.800 my favorite parts about researching the book, was diving into 2:27:59.840 --> 2:28:05.520 the efforts to unmask the clans. Obviously there were efforts 2:28:05.560 --> 2:28:07.840 to unmask the First Clan, but you know, one of 2:28:07.879 --> 2:28:11.400 my favorite stories about unmasking the Second Clan took place 2:28:11.400 --> 2:28:15.960 in Buffalo, New York, and there was actually a very 2:28:16.520 --> 2:28:20.199 large Clan chapter in Buffalo. You know, the Second Clan 2:28:20.959 --> 2:28:22.720 wasn't confined to the South. 2:28:22.800 --> 2:28:23.480 It was everywhere. 2:28:23.600 --> 2:28:26.200 It was in the Northeast and the midwest, right, and 2:28:26.720 --> 2:28:30.480 it was animated not only by anti black racism and 2:28:30.560 --> 2:28:35.320 anti Semitism, but also by anti Catholicism. They were really 2:28:35.840 --> 2:28:41.040 angry at this new wave of immigrants from Eastern and 2:28:41.120 --> 2:28:41.800 southern Europe. 2:28:41.879 --> 2:28:44.160 They didn't allow Catholics in until the seventies. They had 2:28:44.200 --> 2:28:46.200 to have a big summit about it. Yes, yeah, yes, 2:28:46.360 --> 2:28:47.800 when they decided that Catholics are white. 2:28:47.879 --> 2:28:50.360 Yes exactly. And this is I mean, it's just it's 2:28:50.400 --> 2:28:53.200 so much to unpack because like obviously, like my family's Catholic, 2:28:54.000 --> 2:28:57.240 and I enjoy all the privilege of being white. But 2:28:57.440 --> 2:29:00.760 like you know, back then, like you know, so Catholics 2:29:00.840 --> 2:29:02.440 were you know this other. 2:29:02.480 --> 2:29:04.760 You had a dual loyalty to this mysterious king. 2:29:05.120 --> 2:29:08.680 Yes, exactly. So at any rate, the Klan in Buffalo 2:29:09.080 --> 2:29:11.880 is really big, and you know, in one night they 2:29:11.920 --> 2:29:15.320 even have this elaborate cross burning ceremony where eight hundred 2:29:15.440 --> 2:29:19.400 people take the oath for the Klan. The mayor of Buffalo, though, 2:29:19.520 --> 2:29:24.640 is Catholic and forms a coalition with you know, Black 2:29:24.680 --> 2:29:29.480 Buffalonians and Jewish Buffalonians, and the mayor ends up enlisting 2:29:29.520 --> 2:29:33.000 a spy to go undercover into the Klan. One night, 2:29:33.360 --> 2:29:39.000 the clan's secret headquarters in Buffalo are ransacked, broken into 2:29:39.080 --> 2:29:44.560 in ransacked, and suddenly this list of the clan's membership 2:29:44.720 --> 2:29:47.120 ends up in the hands of the mayor. The mayor 2:29:47.280 --> 2:29:50.840 has makes some like deft denials of any involvement, but 2:29:51.480 --> 2:29:55.240 says that he's going to post the lists downtown. The 2:29:55.360 --> 2:29:58.840 list is posted downtown, so many people show up to 2:29:58.959 --> 2:30:01.240 look at the list to see who among their neighbors 2:30:01.920 --> 2:30:03.880 is in the clan that they end up having to 2:30:04.040 --> 2:30:06.320 move the list I believe, to a warehouse to fit 2:30:06.360 --> 2:30:08.640 all the people so that they could form a line. 2:30:09.200 --> 2:30:12.400 And then in the ensuing weeks and months, clan owned 2:30:12.480 --> 2:30:17.280 businesses are boycotted and vandalized. Clansmen turn up to their 2:30:17.360 --> 2:30:22.119 jobs only to learn that they've been fired, and before 2:30:22.480 --> 2:30:26.760 long the klan just completely falls apart. And interestingly enough, 2:30:27.480 --> 2:30:29.920 Clan headquarters down in Georgia heard about what was happening 2:30:29.959 --> 2:30:33.360 in Buffalo and was really alarmed by it, so they 2:30:33.480 --> 2:30:35.880 send an investigator to Buffalo to figure out who the 2:30:35.920 --> 2:30:40.160 spy is. They figure out who the spy is, and 2:30:40.280 --> 2:30:43.360 they get in a shootout and they both die Jesus Christ, 2:30:43.520 --> 2:30:47.640 which like underscores you know the stakes of this work sometime. 2:30:47.720 --> 2:30:50.400 Right, which is why you know the Richard Spencer Puncher 2:30:50.560 --> 2:30:53.280 and the infiltrators. They do their best to stay anonymous 2:30:53.320 --> 2:30:58.440 because the Steaks are lethal. Yeah, right, they will kill 2:30:58.480 --> 2:31:02.560 you back. Yes, organizations can't survive sunshine, and they're so 2:31:02.720 --> 2:31:05.440 aware of that that. Yeah, people have been killed for this. 2:31:05.879 --> 2:31:18.800 Yeah, absolutely, You and I have both faced our share 2:31:18.879 --> 2:31:23.680 of harassment and stuff. But there's older tales of you know, 2:31:23.800 --> 2:31:27.880 anti racist action. Back in the nineties, two of its members, 2:31:27.959 --> 2:31:32.760 you know, anti racist skinheads, were in Nevada, lured out 2:31:32.800 --> 2:31:37.720 to the desert by Nazis under false pretenses and executed 2:31:38.040 --> 2:31:38.640 in the desert. 2:31:38.800 --> 2:31:40.800 It is fourth of July weekend, right, Yes, we still 2:31:40.840 --> 2:31:42.800 honor them on the fourth of July exactly. 2:31:42.879 --> 2:31:45.080 Yeah. Their names are escaping me right. 2:31:45.000 --> 2:31:47.640 Now, Spitting Newborn and Daniel Shrsey. 2:31:48.280 --> 2:31:52.840 Yes, And there is a fantastic Orlando Weekly feature article 2:31:53.000 --> 2:31:56.360 about I Believe Spit that I think is one of 2:31:56.440 --> 2:31:58.920 the best pieces I've read in a long time that 2:31:59.040 --> 2:32:00.480 maybe we can put in the notes I think people 2:32:00.520 --> 2:32:03.400 would really enjoy. Absolutely, and you know, and then there's 2:32:03.440 --> 2:32:05.480 more recent examples of that too. You know, over the 2:32:05.560 --> 2:32:09.720 last five years, there was three members of the base, 2:32:09.800 --> 2:32:12.720 which is like a neo Nazi organization. Obviously, I love 2:32:12.800 --> 2:32:13.720 that your listeners know all. 2:32:13.720 --> 2:32:17.000 This, by the way, no what they could use the recap, Yeah, yeah. 2:32:17.160 --> 2:32:19.520 But know who these groups are at least, but they 2:32:19.560 --> 2:32:23.120 were arrested for conspiring to kidnap and murder to anti 2:32:23.160 --> 2:32:24.720 fascist activists in Georgia. 2:32:25.120 --> 2:32:27.400 It was a couple living in a kind of remote 2:32:27.400 --> 2:32:30.360 area and they had a very detailed plan to burn 2:32:30.440 --> 2:32:33.160 down their home and like kill them in their beds 2:32:33.200 --> 2:32:34.000 and kill their pets. 2:32:34.040 --> 2:32:35.480 And I mean it was Yeah. 2:32:35.640 --> 2:32:39.800 If not for the FBI agent who was their friend, yeah, 2:32:39.800 --> 2:32:40.800 that couple would have been killed. 2:32:41.360 --> 2:32:41.560 Yeah. 2:32:41.720 --> 2:32:43.760 No, it's it's really wild to consider the. 2:32:43.840 --> 2:32:46.280 FBI agent was friends with the Nazis. I should clarify 2:32:46.640 --> 2:32:49.320 there is almost always an FBI agent who is friends 2:32:49.600 --> 2:32:52.640 with the Nazi. Yes, And that's that's the important thing, right, 2:32:52.640 --> 2:32:55.520 you know, Like these anti fascists are infiltrating these groups, 2:32:55.840 --> 2:32:57.640 and so is the FBI. Right, Like a lot of 2:32:57.720 --> 2:33:02.240 these hate groups, somebody is either a paid informant, freelance informant, 2:33:02.400 --> 2:33:06.480 or an actual undercover agent. And that's great, I guess, 2:33:06.640 --> 2:33:10.200 but a lot of times they will prioritize keeping their 2:33:10.240 --> 2:33:15.199 agent undercover, yes, over using the information to protect anyone. 2:33:15.400 --> 2:33:15.560 Yes. 2:33:16.160 --> 2:33:18.080 And when we do it, when anti fascists do that, 2:33:18.640 --> 2:33:22.199 we are invested in protecting our communities. Not building a case. 2:33:22.360 --> 2:33:23.160 Yes, exactly. 2:33:23.280 --> 2:33:24.720 You don't need to take this to a grand jury. 2:33:24.800 --> 2:33:25.960 You don't need to keep a guy in there for 2:33:26.040 --> 2:33:29.560 twenty years waiting for the big fish. You're protecting a community. 2:33:29.760 --> 2:33:32.320 Yes, I mean, there's an example of that in the book. 2:33:32.600 --> 2:33:36.320 There was a kind of this white whale in anti 2:33:36.400 --> 2:33:39.120 fascist circles that people were trying to identify. And he 2:33:39.240 --> 2:33:41.680 was a leader in the Ball Patrol, which of course 2:33:41.879 --> 2:33:45.520 is this community of Nazis that praises his mass shooters 2:33:45.560 --> 2:33:48.119 and tries to encourage other Nazis to commit mass shootings. 2:33:48.879 --> 2:33:52.400 And he was eventually identified as this guy named Andrew 2:33:52.520 --> 2:33:57.280 Casserat in Sacramento, California. I remember Vic, yeah, and his 2:33:57.760 --> 2:34:01.959 his pseudonym was Vic Mackie. Yeah, and anti fascists identified him. 2:34:02.280 --> 2:34:06.200 I published a story at huff Post. It emerges later 2:34:06.560 --> 2:34:12.480 that Andrew Cassat was already on like the no fly lists, yes. 2:34:12.480 --> 2:34:14.840 Which means the government already knew who that fucking man 2:34:15.080 --> 2:34:17.920 was when he was he was recording a podcast about 2:34:18.000 --> 2:34:21.640 shooting me in my womb through my vagina, and the 2:34:21.720 --> 2:34:23.760 government already knew who he was, yes. 2:34:23.959 --> 2:34:26.760 And which is just insane. And you know, and they'll 2:34:26.800 --> 2:34:29.520 claim it's like investigative secrecy, like it's some kind of 2:34:29.640 --> 2:34:31.480 some kind of pragmatism, but it's like for what, Like 2:34:31.560 --> 2:34:32.879 they're posing an urgent. 2:34:32.720 --> 2:34:35.600 Threat for one thing, I felt safer. And I was 2:34:35.680 --> 2:34:38.080 safer once I knew who he was, once someone did 2:34:38.160 --> 2:34:40.600 the work of identifying that man, and I could say 2:34:40.959 --> 2:34:44.560 with certainty he is in California, he is not near me. 2:34:45.360 --> 2:34:48.680 I was safer, Yes, And like anti fascist gave me 2:34:48.760 --> 2:34:50.400 that the government did not give me that. The government 2:34:50.400 --> 2:34:51.280 would never have given me. 2:34:51.320 --> 2:34:54.840 That, yes, exactly. And I think it's also you know, obviously, 2:34:55.800 --> 2:34:58.040 you know, a big tenant of militant anti fascism is 2:34:58.080 --> 2:35:00.840 that you don't trust law enforcem or the state in 2:35:00.920 --> 2:35:04.280 this fight. And not only for the reasons we're describing now, 2:35:04.840 --> 2:35:08.600 but there's like this historical irony in when the FBI 2:35:09.280 --> 2:35:13.520 or law enforcement in general infiltrates white supremacist groups, they 2:35:13.640 --> 2:35:15.400 end up finding a bunch of their buddies, and these 2:35:15.440 --> 2:35:18.040 white supremacist groups, like they end up identifying a lot 2:35:18.080 --> 2:35:21.440 of police officers. And I think it just goes to 2:35:21.520 --> 2:35:24.880 show the ways in which, obviously law enforcement and white 2:35:24.879 --> 2:35:27.480 supremacist groups often share similar goals. 2:35:27.959 --> 2:35:30.600 Very much so, and sometimes once they have a guy 2:35:30.680 --> 2:35:33.120 in there. I mean, I'm sure it happens still to 2:35:33.160 --> 2:35:35.040 this day. We don't have the records of it happening now, 2:35:35.280 --> 2:35:37.280 but we have the sort of sixties and seventies era 2:35:37.600 --> 2:35:40.760 co intel pro records now that do show that. You know, 2:35:40.920 --> 2:35:44.520 they had tons of FBI agents infiltrating the clan, allegedly 2:35:44.640 --> 2:35:48.440 to disrupt the clan, but that's not what they were doing. 2:35:49.120 --> 2:35:53.240 They were steering the clan into disrupting the civil rights movement. 2:35:53.440 --> 2:35:57.400 Yes, yes, but I mean most famously the Greensboro massacre 2:35:57.640 --> 2:36:00.960 where you know, the clan and an other white supremacist 2:36:01.120 --> 2:36:04.840 murdered some anti fascist communist activists, and then it emerged 2:36:04.920 --> 2:36:08.680 afterwards that an FBI agent was in the group but 2:36:08.840 --> 2:36:11.879 didn't report kind of their plans for violence. 2:36:11.800 --> 2:36:14.240 Over and over again. Yeah, and those five people died 2:36:14.280 --> 2:36:16.600 for it. Yeah, exactly, which is why I will always 2:36:16.640 --> 2:36:20.880 trust an anti fascist infiltrator over an FBI agent. Yes, 2:36:21.640 --> 2:36:23.840 I loved the historical parallels, right, you know, so you 2:36:23.959 --> 2:36:26.520 take doxing all the way back to the second Clan. 2:36:27.120 --> 2:36:30.119 You know, this outside agitator narrative is not new, It's 2:36:30.160 --> 2:36:33.199 something Martin Luther King Junior wrote about you were seeing 2:36:33.200 --> 2:36:35.240 that now, right, Like, you know, these people protesting their 2:36:35.280 --> 2:36:38.199 outside agitators. This isn't the real community. The real community 2:36:38.240 --> 2:36:43.039 wouldn't behave like this. It's the same as it ever was, right, Yeah, yeah, exactly. 2:36:43.120 --> 2:36:46.040 I mean I think you know, since Antifa kind of 2:36:46.080 --> 2:36:52.000 exploded into the American consciousness, MAGA and the rights seized 2:36:52.280 --> 2:36:58.520 on Antifa as a boogeyman, and they trusted that kind 2:36:58.520 --> 2:37:01.760 of liberals and centrists were going to throw Antifa under 2:37:01.800 --> 2:37:04.200 the bus, right, that like they were going to come 2:37:04.240 --> 2:37:07.520 to Antifa's defense necessarily or even acknowledge a lot of 2:37:07.560 --> 2:37:12.120 times that Antifa existed, and you know, that allowed them 2:37:12.640 --> 2:37:16.440 to create this boogeyman of like epic proportions. So like 2:37:16.600 --> 2:37:22.720 in twenty seventeen, after Charlottesville, a synonymous pro Trump troll 2:37:22.879 --> 2:37:29.200 called Microchip starts a petition to declare Antifa a quote 2:37:29.280 --> 2:37:33.720 domestic terrorist organization. This petition goes viral, gets like three 2:37:33.800 --> 2:37:37.960 hundred thousand signees, and Microchip ends up giving an interview 2:37:38.000 --> 2:37:42.840 to Politico where he's very upfront and frank about why 2:37:42.920 --> 2:37:46.440 he's doing this, and it's not because the White House 2:37:46.520 --> 2:37:49.800 is actually going to declare Antifa domestic terrorist organization. 2:37:50.080 --> 2:37:50.400 Oops. 2:37:50.520 --> 2:37:53.400 Oops, there's no federal domestic terror statute to even do that. 2:37:53.520 --> 2:37:56.840 Antifa is not an organization. He's very explicit to say, 2:37:57.560 --> 2:38:00.680 I'm doing this to set up Antifa as a punching 2:38:00.760 --> 2:38:04.480 bag and to deflect and distract from the far rights, 2:38:05.000 --> 2:38:05.960 very real violence. 2:38:06.240 --> 2:38:07.440 Pretty wild that he said it. 2:38:07.600 --> 2:38:09.840 He just said it. Yeah, said it. 2:38:10.040 --> 2:38:12.840 Yeah, And it's like that he admitted it. 2:38:12.959 --> 2:38:14.480 Meme, Oh my god, he admitted it. 2:38:14.600 --> 2:38:17.720 He admitted yeah. Yeah. And you know, over the next 2:38:17.760 --> 2:38:20.560 few months, every time there's a mass shooting, you have 2:38:20.760 --> 2:38:25.120 folks like Jack Pisobic and other kind of disinformation artists 2:38:25.640 --> 2:38:27.560 jumping in when you know there's not a lot of 2:38:27.600 --> 2:38:31.080 information yet to blame these mass shootings on Antifa. 2:38:31.560 --> 2:38:33.760 I mean, there's a weird troll who still thinks I'm 2:38:33.800 --> 2:38:35.199 responsible for January sixth. 2:38:35.320 --> 2:38:40.280 Yes, yes, exactly. Very impressive work, by the way. You know, 2:38:40.400 --> 2:38:43.560 so they're using Antifa that way to like distract and deflect. 2:38:43.560 --> 2:38:48.600 They're blaming Antifa for wildfires and trained derailments and all 2:38:48.680 --> 2:38:51.240 this crazy shit. And then you know there's a little 2:38:51.280 --> 2:38:54.480 bit of a wall. And then in twenty twenty, the 2:38:54.520 --> 2:38:58.200 George Floyd uprisings happen, and you know, the George Floyd 2:38:58.320 --> 2:39:03.520 uprisings are one of the biggest mass uprisings in American history. 2:39:03.920 --> 2:39:07.840 It's completely grassroots and organic, and it is led by 2:39:08.560 --> 2:39:14.560 black protesters in their communities inspired by uprisings again in Minneapolis. 2:39:15.120 --> 2:39:16.760 It's too soon for history to be repeating. 2:39:17.040 --> 2:39:21.680 I know, it's really crazy, but Antifa, the Antifa boogeyman, 2:39:21.800 --> 2:39:26.279 now is repurposed as kind of this outside agitator's trope 2:39:26.360 --> 2:39:30.840 on steroids. Right, So Trump and all these magget influencers 2:39:30.959 --> 2:39:36.920 rush to blame Antifa for fomenting these mass uprisings, which 2:39:37.000 --> 2:39:37.680 is absurd. 2:39:38.320 --> 2:39:38.520 Yeah. 2:39:38.560 --> 2:39:42.680 Sure, and Antifa activists were at these uprisings, but you know, 2:39:43.280 --> 2:39:46.200 they weren't instigating them, like nor would they have the 2:39:46.320 --> 2:39:49.480 organizing power to instigate such a massive uprising like that. 2:39:50.120 --> 2:39:52.960 When the right is doing this, it's an effort to 2:39:53.560 --> 2:39:58.920 make these uprisings seem artificial or you know, kind of 2:39:59.360 --> 2:40:03.200 astroterm something you can dismiss, something you can dismiss as 2:40:03.240 --> 2:40:06.800 inorganic and artificial. And it's a way of like distracting 2:40:06.959 --> 2:40:11.160 from the very real grievance at the heart of these demonstrations, 2:40:11.200 --> 2:40:13.920 which is that we want cops to stop killing black people. 2:40:14.760 --> 2:40:19.000 So throughout the summer of twenty twenty, the Antifa panic 2:40:19.280 --> 2:40:23.960 reaches like absurd levels where you know, there are rumors, 2:40:24.080 --> 2:40:29.600 viral rumors of busloads of Antifa roaming the countryside looking 2:40:29.720 --> 2:40:34.199 to burn down white businesses. You know, again, Antifa's blamed 2:40:34.240 --> 2:40:36.880 for wildfires in the West. All of a sudden, you 2:40:37.040 --> 2:40:42.280 get these paramilitary groups, militia groups out West using these 2:40:42.320 --> 2:40:48.640 Antifa rumors as a pretext to literally occupy towns, entire towns. 2:40:49.080 --> 2:40:52.160 You know, you have forty white dudes in full camo 2:40:52.480 --> 2:40:57.200 and vests carrying big guns patrolling the streets on the 2:40:57.240 --> 2:41:00.360 lookout for this Antifa menace. You know, there's like story 2:41:00.400 --> 2:41:04.440 about in a Standpoint, Idaho, which is this gorgeous town 2:41:04.520 --> 2:41:07.680 in the Panhandle, and these like group of like high 2:41:07.680 --> 2:41:11.520 school kids go on a Black Lives Matter march across 2:41:11.560 --> 2:41:14.200 a bridge, and all of a sudden they're being followed 2:41:14.280 --> 2:41:18.959 by these like middle aged white dudes carrying AR fifteen's 2:41:19.000 --> 2:41:22.920 and calling them racial slurs Jesus Christ. So like, basically, 2:41:23.360 --> 2:41:27.040 the Antifa boogeyman in twenty twenty is repackaged again not 2:41:27.200 --> 2:41:30.280 only to sew division on the left, and to create 2:41:30.360 --> 2:41:34.400 this outside agitator's narrative, but to create this pretext for 2:41:34.520 --> 2:41:37.320 vigilante violence. And there was a lot of vigilante violence 2:41:37.640 --> 2:41:40.800 that occurred in twenty twenty of course, you know, now 2:41:40.920 --> 2:41:45.720 we're in twenty twenty six, and we saw last throughout 2:41:45.800 --> 2:41:48.920 last year as well. The Antifa boogeyman again is being, 2:41:49.200 --> 2:41:55.240 you know, summoned to call whoever opposes the Trump regime's 2:41:55.320 --> 2:42:00.240 effort to ethnically cleanse the United States, you know, domestic terrorists. 2:42:00.480 --> 2:42:03.840 Right, The enemy is simultaneously very weak and very strong 2:42:03.920 --> 2:42:05.959 in their minds, right, like, yeah, we're all a bunch 2:42:06.000 --> 2:42:07.840 of soy boys who live in our mom's basements, but 2:42:07.879 --> 2:42:12.960 we were also a massive, networked, armed organization with unlimited fundings. 2:42:13.120 --> 2:42:17.040 Yes, exactly, exactly, And you know, obviously Trump claimed to 2:42:17.120 --> 2:42:21.800 formally designate Antifa a domestic terror group in September. 2:42:22.000 --> 2:42:23.039 Doesn't mean anything. 2:42:23.120 --> 2:42:25.000 He did say it. He did say it, and. 2:42:25.040 --> 2:42:27.920 Then he held a Antifa round table at the White 2:42:27.959 --> 2:42:31.320 House with a lot of our friends anty no Jack Pisovic. 2:42:31.879 --> 2:42:34.320 But you know, as farcical as it all is, it's 2:42:34.360 --> 2:42:39.000 also deeply dangerous and alarming. In September, Trump designates Antifa 2:42:39.080 --> 2:42:43.920 domestic terror group. And then last month they murder Renee 2:42:44.000 --> 2:42:46.640 Good and cold blood and what do they do. They 2:42:46.720 --> 2:42:48.680 call her domestic terrorists after the fact. 2:42:49.000 --> 2:42:50.200 Exactly, it's pretext. 2:42:50.800 --> 2:42:52.359 It's all pretexts, because. 2:42:52.120 --> 2:42:55.839 If you create this sort of shadowy network of unidentified 2:42:56.040 --> 2:43:00.440 agitators who are responsible for unspecified but very bad crimes, 2:43:01.040 --> 2:43:01.720 you can kill anyone. 2:43:01.800 --> 2:43:04.440 Say it with them, Yeah, exactly. I wrote a piece 2:43:04.560 --> 2:43:09.760 for The Nation recently about how there's a tendency in 2:43:09.840 --> 2:43:14.040 response to like this escalating mega hysteria about Antifa. There's 2:43:14.080 --> 2:43:19.000 a tendency among liberals and centrists to dismiss Antifa as 2:43:19.080 --> 2:43:21.960 not existing, to altimately say that it's not even a thing, 2:43:22.680 --> 2:43:26.360 or to say, well, antifa just means anti fascists, so 2:43:26.440 --> 2:43:30.080 we're all antifa, but like to me that entirely this 2:43:30.240 --> 2:43:33.160 is the point, like a like, Antifa is real, and 2:43:33.240 --> 2:43:36.840 it refers to like a very real subculture and a 2:43:37.000 --> 2:43:42.800 very real tradition, militant tradition of anti fascist organizing. And 2:43:43.720 --> 2:43:47.840 if liberals and centrists can't acknowledge that Antifa is real 2:43:47.959 --> 2:43:51.280 and come to their defense, then you know, the people 2:43:51.400 --> 2:43:53.360 doing this work might be in some danger. And I 2:43:53.400 --> 2:43:56.920 think it's important to show them some solidarity right now. 2:43:57.320 --> 2:44:01.600 It's such a complicated reality, right because it's not a group, yeah, 2:44:01.640 --> 2:44:03.680 but it is. It's also it's a thousand different groups 2:44:04.080 --> 2:44:06.440 of two or three or ten. It's not like a 2:44:06.520 --> 2:44:10.200 nationwide membership organization. You know, it is just an idea, 2:44:10.280 --> 2:44:13.400 but it's also a history, a set of tactics. It's 2:44:13.400 --> 2:44:15.039 all of those things, and it's none of those things. 2:44:15.080 --> 2:44:17.760 And it's different depending on who you ask and why 2:44:17.800 --> 2:44:18.560 you're asking. 2:44:18.720 --> 2:44:20.880 Yeah, exactly, And like anyone can do it, you know, 2:44:21.080 --> 2:44:23.480 like right like anyone can take up the mantle of 2:44:23.600 --> 2:44:25.040 like militant anti fascist work. 2:44:25.240 --> 2:44:26.600 A lot of people are doing it on their own. 2:44:26.800 --> 2:44:30.520 Yeah, and I think like that's what's been so kind 2:44:30.560 --> 2:44:34.160 of inspiring to me about Minneapolis and the uprisings right is, 2:44:34.760 --> 2:44:38.800 you know, everything that community is doing right now is 2:44:38.920 --> 2:44:44.400 a grassroots, organic response, and they're doing it because no 2:44:44.440 --> 2:44:45.800 one else is going to do it for them. 2:44:46.040 --> 2:44:46.240 Yeah. 2:44:46.480 --> 2:44:49.840 There's this axiom that we talk about a lot in 2:44:49.959 --> 2:44:54.280 anti fascist spaces and anarchist spaces and black liberation movements. 2:44:54.959 --> 2:44:58.560 You know, this axiom of we protect us, and you 2:44:58.640 --> 2:45:02.440 know that is on very big display right now in 2:45:03.040 --> 2:45:07.480 Minneapolis where you have people doing what anti fascist activists 2:45:07.520 --> 2:45:10.960 were doing to Nazis in twenty seventeen, which is monitoring them, 2:45:11.440 --> 2:45:15.720 following them, disrupting them. They are figuring out where they 2:45:15.760 --> 2:45:19.360 are staying, where they're eating, and pressuring those businesses and 2:45:19.400 --> 2:45:22.760 those hotels not to serve them. They are showing up 2:45:22.800 --> 2:45:28.400 outside their hotels doing noise demos, they are identifying them. 2:45:28.720 --> 2:45:28.920 Yeah. 2:45:29.600 --> 2:45:31.720 Yeah, and I think you know, we protect us is 2:45:31.879 --> 2:45:34.760 such a you know, it's such a short, pithy phrase, 2:45:34.879 --> 2:45:37.720 but you don't know what it means until you feel it. Yeah, right, 2:45:37.800 --> 2:45:40.480 Like I think in Minneapolis people are feeling it. They're 2:45:40.520 --> 2:45:43.640 protecting each other, right. You know, here in Charlottesville after 2:45:43.760 --> 2:45:46.440 Unite the Right, you know, when local authority figures were 2:45:46.440 --> 2:45:49.320 saying things about Antifa, you would have you know, white 2:45:49.360 --> 2:45:50.920 grandma's get up there and say, don't you say that 2:45:50.959 --> 2:45:53.520 about antifa? Right, don't you say that about antifa? You 2:45:53.560 --> 2:45:55.160 know it is a word I didn't know a month ago, 2:45:55.240 --> 2:45:58.280 but they saved my life. Yes, right that once you 2:45:58.440 --> 2:46:02.120 have experienced that kind of community solidarity, that that we 2:46:02.320 --> 2:46:05.040 protect us ethos, once you've seen it, you know what 2:46:05.120 --> 2:46:07.880 it means, yes, exactly, And nobody's going to tell you different. 2:46:08.120 --> 2:46:10.840 Yeah, And like you know, it's also it's just so 2:46:11.080 --> 2:46:15.680 clear in Minneapolis that like the Democratic Party and you know, 2:46:15.879 --> 2:46:20.640 law enforcement, the local police are not doing anything, you know, 2:46:20.959 --> 2:46:22.600 like they're not They're. 2:46:22.560 --> 2:46:25.360 The people that are supposed to protect you. Aren't going to, 2:46:25.560 --> 2:46:27.800 aren't going to The police will watch you get beaten 2:46:27.840 --> 2:46:31.120 in the street, yes, yes, exactly, and your center, your 2:46:31.160 --> 2:46:33.440 senator will say nothing when the President calls you a terrorist. 2:46:34.040 --> 2:46:37.360 Yes, And so you know, I think it just kind 2:46:37.400 --> 2:46:42.039 of goes to show that this kind of militant, anti 2:46:42.080 --> 2:46:47.120 fascist tradition is it's an organic response to conditions. It 2:46:47.240 --> 2:46:51.720 is like an insurgent form of community self defense. As 2:46:52.120 --> 2:46:56.160 horrifying as the footage coming out of Minneapolis is, especially 2:46:56.280 --> 2:46:59.080 that photo this week of the five year old God 2:46:59.320 --> 2:47:01.040 being detained, which I can't get out of my head 2:47:01.040 --> 2:47:03.400 and which makes my blood. 2:47:02.840 --> 2:47:05.120 Boil thinking of it, I can't cry on the recording. 2:47:05.440 --> 2:47:07.040 Yeah, no, it makes me want to cry too. 2:47:18.240 --> 2:47:20.280 Something that really struck me reading the book. You know, 2:47:20.280 --> 2:47:23.240 I was saying, like, you know, I read Vincent Washington's leaks, 2:47:23.280 --> 2:47:26.440 but he didn't know anything about Vincent. You said that 2:47:26.879 --> 2:47:29.800 he told you he was moved to start taking this 2:47:29.959 --> 2:47:33.720 kind of militant action by the Portland Max train stabbing. Yeah, 2:47:34.080 --> 2:47:36.360 I mean that stopped me in my tracks. 2:47:36.800 --> 2:47:39.200 Yeah, you know. And I think one of the more 2:47:39.280 --> 2:47:45.360 moving parts of researching this book was realizing that all 2:47:45.400 --> 2:47:49.600 of the anti fascists doing this work had brushes with 2:47:50.040 --> 2:47:53.320 fascist violence in their communities, and that's what inspired them 2:47:53.440 --> 2:47:57.080 to do it. You know, Vincent was in Portland in 2:47:57.480 --> 2:48:01.600 twenty what year was that was seventeen May twenty seventeen, right, 2:48:02.120 --> 2:48:06.800 and he gets on a train at Hollywood Station in Portland, 2:48:07.440 --> 2:48:10.040 goes to a friend's place, has a good time, and 2:48:10.120 --> 2:48:13.960 then later reads the news and realizes that had he 2:48:14.160 --> 2:48:18.480 taken one train before his that left about a minute before, 2:48:19.200 --> 2:48:21.080 he could have been in this car where this white 2:48:21.120 --> 2:48:27.360 supremacist named Jeremy Christian started harassing to black Muslim girls. 2:48:27.840 --> 2:48:30.840 He is haranguing them, telling them to get out of America. 2:48:31.680 --> 2:48:37.120 When three men intervene, Jeremy Christian slashes the throats of 2:48:37.160 --> 2:48:40.360 the three men and two of them die. God, we're 2:48:40.360 --> 2:48:42.360 gonna get emotional on this, but like one of the. 2:48:42.400 --> 2:48:44.720 Last times, this one really really gets to me. I've 2:48:44.879 --> 2:48:46.800 sort of brushed up against the story and a couple 2:48:46.840 --> 2:48:49.840 of things I've written, And I mean it's one of 2:48:49.920 --> 2:48:53.840 the most moving encounters you know, of all of these 2:48:53.840 --> 2:48:56.680 sort of moving pieces, right that a Nazi committing violence 2:48:56.720 --> 2:49:00.879 against a Somali immigrant. Right, that's so relevant today, ordinary 2:49:00.959 --> 2:49:03.840 people intervening. Only one of them was sort of an 2:49:03.879 --> 2:49:06.840 active anti fascist in his community, the young man that survived, 2:49:06.920 --> 2:49:10.800 Micah Fletcher. The other two were just everyday dudes, every 2:49:10.840 --> 2:49:13.280 day dudes. They didn't have anti fascist politics. But they 2:49:13.360 --> 2:49:16.160 saw a Nazi threatening a little girl. 2:49:16.640 --> 2:49:19.080 They saw Nazi threatening a little girl, and they lost 2:49:19.120 --> 2:49:24.680 their lives. And as one of them, and I'm blanking 2:49:24.720 --> 2:49:28.120 on his name right now, it's Talisian. Yeah, was lying 2:49:29.000 --> 2:49:31.760 bleeding out. He said, tell everyone on this train, I 2:49:31.879 --> 2:49:36.640 love them. So I actually flew to Portland's a few 2:49:36.720 --> 2:49:40.879 days later and ended up interviewing his girlfriend. Oh my god, 2:49:41.000 --> 2:49:46.360 you kept a journal of their relationship and read me 2:49:46.480 --> 2:49:49.400 passages from it, and like, you know, how beautiful the 2:49:49.480 --> 2:49:51.560 relationship was. They had just moved in together, they were 2:49:51.600 --> 2:49:55.720 growing a garden together, and before he left that morning 2:49:55.760 --> 2:49:59.040 he get on that train, he said something really wonderful 2:49:59.800 --> 2:50:02.360 just about how much he loved her. So, you know, 2:50:02.720 --> 2:50:06.360 basically his day started and ended with these expressions. 2:50:05.879 --> 2:50:07.920 Of love that would always really rex me. 2:50:08.160 --> 2:50:08.920 Yeah, yeah, me too. 2:50:09.680 --> 2:50:12.000 But seeing that that was sort of you know, as 2:50:12.200 --> 2:50:14.680 someone who got into this work after seeing what happened 2:50:15.000 --> 2:50:17.400 where I live, Yes exactly, it was. It was very 2:50:17.440 --> 2:50:19.119 striking to me that you know, it was the same 2:50:19.200 --> 2:50:21.840 for Vincent. It was something that he was not involved in. 2:50:21.959 --> 2:50:24.200 He didn't he didn't witness this stabbing, but he was 2:50:24.280 --> 2:50:27.000 so close to it. It felt so intimate to him, 2:50:27.200 --> 2:50:29.439 and he felt like, well, I have to do something. 2:50:29.400 --> 2:50:31.840 Yes exactly. And there were so many other examples that 2:50:31.959 --> 2:50:35.080 I name in the book of these really horrendous hate 2:50:35.160 --> 2:50:38.760 crimes taking place in Portland and Seattle and across the 2:50:38.800 --> 2:50:42.160 Pacific Northwest, which you know historically has been a hub 2:50:42.320 --> 2:50:46.560 for white supremacist organizing. So you know, for Vincent, if 2:50:46.840 --> 2:50:49.440 the threat felt very real to people he knew and loved, 2:50:49.800 --> 2:50:54.199 which is why he decided to go undercover into Patriot 2:50:54.280 --> 2:50:56.480 Front and to fuck up Patriot Front. He had done 2:50:57.120 --> 2:50:59.800 some other anti fascist work before that, like kind of 2:51:00.400 --> 2:51:03.600 monitoring the Proud Boys, but then, you know, I think 2:51:04.120 --> 2:51:05.400 when the Proud Boys were on a bit of a 2:51:05.440 --> 2:51:09.120 decline after January sixth he started to look at groups 2:51:09.160 --> 2:51:11.880 that operated more in the dark and were more secretive, 2:51:12.480 --> 2:51:15.920 and he decided to focus on Patriot Front. 2:51:16.360 --> 2:51:18.720 And how prescient at that time. I mean, Patriot Front 2:51:19.200 --> 2:51:22.240 in twenty seventeen didn't exist in early twenty seventeen, but 2:51:22.280 --> 2:51:25.640 sort of as they rebranded into twenty eighteen from Vanguard America. 2:51:26.040 --> 2:51:27.680 I mean, how prescient of him to know that that 2:51:27.720 --> 2:51:28.600 would be the place to go. 2:51:28.920 --> 2:51:32.040 Yeah, No, totally like that. That's where I think the 2:51:32.800 --> 2:51:36.800 energy was and like kind of the anonymous organizing was going, 2:51:37.480 --> 2:51:40.240 and you know, and what he did was really remarkable. 2:51:40.280 --> 2:51:43.920 I think a lot of anti fascist infiltrations and spy 2:51:44.040 --> 2:51:48.040 work is done online. You know, people just creating a 2:51:48.120 --> 2:51:51.800 username in an avatar and they can manage to do 2:51:51.920 --> 2:51:54.800 most of the espionage from behind a computer screen. 2:51:55.320 --> 2:51:55.440 You know. 2:51:55.680 --> 2:51:59.160 One of the more significant acts of espionage during this 2:51:59.320 --> 2:52:03.000 era is like that goes undercover into Identity Europa and 2:52:03.160 --> 2:52:07.120 again manages to get reams and reams of their private messages, 2:52:07.160 --> 2:52:09.920 which end up on Unicorn Riot and that destroyed them too, 2:52:10.120 --> 2:52:13.640 destroyed them and you know those messages, the panic and 2:52:13.680 --> 2:52:18.000 the discord like database ends up identifying one hundred Nazis 2:52:18.200 --> 2:52:21.360 in Identity Europa, which is just remarkable. The anti fascist 2:52:21.400 --> 2:52:24.920 spy that did this I talked to and he just 2:52:25.000 --> 2:52:29.320 had to do an interview with an Identity Europa leader 2:52:29.440 --> 2:52:31.360 to get into the group and I got to listen 2:52:31.400 --> 2:52:34.560 to that recording and it's remarkable. But you know, after that, 2:52:34.680 --> 2:52:36.840 he didn't have to do that much in person, you know, 2:52:37.000 --> 2:52:40.560 method acting to pretend to be a Nazi vincent. However 2:52:40.800 --> 2:52:43.440 did he you know, for five months he was going hiking. 2:52:43.800 --> 2:52:46.680 He was going hiking, man like, because Patriotfront requires you 2:52:46.800 --> 2:52:50.480 to go on missions and hikes and you know, kind 2:52:50.480 --> 2:52:53.200 of group activities. He had to do shit in person. 2:52:53.360 --> 2:52:57.520 So like this dude was acting like deserves an oscar, 2:52:58.240 --> 2:53:01.039 you know. So he climbed Mount Rain for two nights 2:53:01.160 --> 2:53:04.720 with thirteen other Nazis, Oh my god. And by the way, 2:53:04.760 --> 2:53:09.000 at this point had earned the trust of his local 2:53:09.160 --> 2:53:12.600 chapters so much that he was named the official photographer 2:53:12.720 --> 2:53:16.160 and videographer for the chapter, which is just delicious. 2:53:16.360 --> 2:53:19.480 They're so smart, smart, so smart. I mean it's like 2:53:19.560 --> 2:53:21.800 it's like that Simpsons bit, right, Like videotaping this crime 2:53:21.840 --> 2:53:25.840 spree was the best idea we ever take video of everything. 2:53:25.879 --> 2:53:29.040 They do yes, and then because of these leaks, we 2:53:29.200 --> 2:53:31.920 see that in several lawsuits against Patriot Front right like 2:53:31.959 --> 2:53:35.760 they are recording video as they you know, vandalize civil 2:53:35.840 --> 2:53:38.480 rights monuments and things like that, and then they got 2:53:38.560 --> 2:53:40.000 sued in three places. 2:53:40.160 --> 2:53:42.800 Yes, and it's it's basically the stringer bell like, are 2:53:42.840 --> 2:53:45.080 you taking notes on a criminal conspiracy? You know me, 2:53:45.520 --> 2:53:49.800 they are, and they are, so you know, eventually all 2:53:49.879 --> 2:53:52.360 this data that Vincent collects. And by the way, so 2:53:52.440 --> 2:53:55.680 he's in the group for about five months, He's scheduled 2:53:55.760 --> 2:53:59.720 to go to their big march in DC, but the 2:53:59.800 --> 2:54:02.600 last minute claims he can't because the FBI knocks on 2:54:02.680 --> 2:54:05.160 his door. That's a lie. He's just doing that to 2:54:05.200 --> 2:54:10.240 scare Patriot Front when Patriofront gets to DC and goes 2:54:10.280 --> 2:54:14.240 on their march. So anti fascists in DC know their plans, 2:54:14.520 --> 2:54:17.400 and they know where they are parking their vehicles for 2:54:17.480 --> 2:54:20.560 this march. They know where Patriofront is going to march. 2:54:21.120 --> 2:54:25.200 And let's just say, some Nazi cars get redecorated. 2:54:24.879 --> 2:54:27.040 Some tires did not make it out of DC that night. 2:54:27.400 --> 2:54:29.520 Tires did not make it out of DC, some windshields 2:54:30.040 --> 2:54:33.760 did not survive. There is some graffiti. Patriotfront gets back 2:54:33.760 --> 2:54:35.720 to their U hauls. First off that they used to 2:54:36.240 --> 2:54:39.720 get transported into d C from suburban Maryland. Their U 2:54:39.800 --> 2:54:43.040 hauls are fucked up. They get back to Maryland finally 2:54:43.640 --> 2:54:46.720 and to see all their cars fucked up, so you know, 2:54:46.879 --> 2:54:49.519 there's an act of sabotage. They realize they have an infiltrator. 2:54:50.240 --> 2:54:52.800 Before long they realize that it's the man they know 2:54:52.920 --> 2:54:56.320 is Vincent, and I think they think that that's it, 2:54:56.720 --> 2:54:59.840 like there'll be a few doses, but you know that 2:55:00.120 --> 2:55:02.840 it didn't seem like he hacked their server. But then 2:55:03.000 --> 2:55:06.480 of course a month later, all of their messages end up, 2:55:06.560 --> 2:55:09.320 everything end up on Unicorn. Riot You tell Thomas Russou 2:55:10.480 --> 2:55:13.600 the news of this, Oh that was such a treat. Yeah, 2:55:13.760 --> 2:55:15.560 I can't, I can't believe we've never talked about this. 2:55:16.200 --> 2:55:19.080 And over the course of the next few months years, 2:55:19.600 --> 2:55:24.560 so many Patriot Front members are identified, and there's also 2:55:24.680 --> 2:55:29.520 some other delicious details like Vincent, after his infiltration is over, 2:55:30.480 --> 2:55:34.320 he has all this Patriot Front propaganda material that he 2:55:35.080 --> 2:55:39.960 kind of took along the way, banners, pamphlets, shields. So 2:55:40.080 --> 2:55:41.880 what he does on New Year's is he makes a 2:55:42.520 --> 2:55:46.520 pire Towering Pire of this material and lights it on fire, 2:55:47.240 --> 2:55:49.959 makes a really beautiful video set to old lang Syne 2:55:50.640 --> 2:55:54.600 and post it online for Patriot Front to see, and 2:55:54.720 --> 2:55:57.480 I think kind of warning them that, like you know, 2:55:57.680 --> 2:56:00.280 there might be some more coming, some more docs coming, 2:56:00.400 --> 2:56:02.600 some more stuff coming. And the thing is is, like 2:56:02.720 --> 2:56:06.160 Vincent's story is just one story, one kind of remarkable 2:56:06.200 --> 2:56:09.400 story of anti fascist spywork over the last ten years. 2:56:09.600 --> 2:56:13.120 There are so many other stories that I heard about that, 2:56:13.520 --> 2:56:15.520 for various reasons I couldn't put in the book, or 2:56:15.560 --> 2:56:19.000 there wasn't room for in the book. But it's just, yeah, 2:56:19.400 --> 2:56:22.080 I feel very privileged that I got to tell this 2:56:22.200 --> 2:56:23.680 story that not many people know. 2:56:24.320 --> 2:56:26.360 It was such a great framework for the book because 2:56:26.360 --> 2:56:28.920 it's not just about that particular infiltration, but it sort 2:56:28.920 --> 2:56:32.320 of provides this this running framework, this sort of introduction 2:56:32.440 --> 2:56:35.280 to the concept. I thought it was very nicely done. 2:56:35.320 --> 2:56:37.440 I was excited to learn about Vincent because I have only, 2:56:38.040 --> 2:56:40.440 like I said, read his leaks and then the lawsuits 2:56:40.520 --> 2:56:43.160 that had inspired and then the lawsuit against him, right, yeah, 2:56:43.280 --> 2:56:46.280 which was dismissed last week. Yes, it was congratulations Vincent, 2:56:46.400 --> 2:56:46.800 Yes it was. 2:56:46.959 --> 2:56:49.000 Yes. The book gets into this a little bit, but 2:56:49.240 --> 2:56:52.360 Patriot Front does end up ascertaining what it believes is 2:56:52.560 --> 2:56:56.760 Vincent's real identity, and they file a lawsuit in federal 2:56:56.840 --> 2:57:01.480 court in Washington, and it had been ongoing for the 2:57:01.600 --> 2:57:06.320 last year or two, but was finally dismissed in court 2:57:06.400 --> 2:57:07.879 this week. Yeah, or last week. 2:57:08.520 --> 2:57:10.560 So congratulations to the person who may or may not 2:57:10.640 --> 2:57:11.200 have been Vincent. 2:57:11.320 --> 2:57:12.200 Yes, I'll never know. 2:57:12.720 --> 2:57:15.640 It didn't make it didn't make it to a How 2:57:15.680 --> 2:57:16.880 think it ever made it to a hearing? 2:57:17.320 --> 2:57:17.360 No? 2:57:17.720 --> 2:57:18.840 Yeah, yeah, I know. 2:57:18.920 --> 2:57:20.600 I said I wouldn't take up a ton of your time, 2:57:20.760 --> 2:57:24.080 but I can't let you go without talking about red Beard. 2:57:24.480 --> 2:57:25.040 Oh my god. 2:57:25.320 --> 2:57:30.440 This is the first concrete confirmed published docs of red Beard. 2:57:30.959 --> 2:57:31.480 Oh my god. 2:57:31.560 --> 2:57:33.240 Yeah. I can't believe it's taken us this long to 2:57:33.280 --> 2:57:34.720 talk about it. Thank you for reminding me. 2:57:35.480 --> 2:57:38.000 So for the listener. You know, we talk about how 2:57:38.080 --> 2:57:40.080 this is, this is worth that is accessible to everyone, 2:57:40.200 --> 2:57:42.600 but it is not for everyone. And Red Beard to 2:57:42.640 --> 2:57:46.160 someone I have read so many incorrect doxes of And 2:57:46.200 --> 2:57:49.160 that's why it is so important. It's so important to 2:57:49.160 --> 2:57:50.640 be sure of what you're writing, because I've read one 2:57:50.720 --> 2:57:53.440 hundred failed doxes of this man. Yeah, and this one's real. 2:57:53.680 --> 2:57:57.880 Yeah, So red Beard, to those who don't know, again, 2:57:58.080 --> 2:58:00.840 was kind of this white whale and anti fascist circles 2:58:00.920 --> 2:58:06.560 white supremacists will basically insomuch as he was one of 2:58:06.640 --> 2:58:10.520 the men filmed in Charlottesville in twenty seventeen beating DeAndre Harris. 2:58:11.120 --> 2:58:13.680 For those that don't remember, DeAndre Harris was a black 2:58:14.000 --> 2:58:17.960 counterprotester resident of the Charlottesville area. He was a nineteen 2:58:18.000 --> 2:58:21.640 year old teacher for special ed students and he ends 2:58:21.720 --> 2:58:26.560 up in a scuffle with Nazis that are leaving Charlottesville, 2:58:26.920 --> 2:58:30.000 leaving the rally, and they end up in a parking 2:58:30.040 --> 2:58:32.920 garage where five of them beat him while he's on 2:58:33.160 --> 2:58:37.840 the pavement with metal poles and other weapons, and it's 2:58:37.879 --> 2:58:40.720 captured on camera. I think it's one of the more 2:58:41.440 --> 2:58:45.480 distressing things to watch from Charlottesville. I actually happened to 2:58:45.520 --> 2:58:47.600 be in the garage at the time, was running towards 2:58:47.640 --> 2:58:50.520 DeAndre when one of the Nazis pulled a gun and 2:58:50.600 --> 2:58:52.600 started waving it around, so I ducked behind a car. 2:58:53.440 --> 2:58:55.680 By the time I got up, DeAndre was stumbling away. 2:58:55.760 --> 2:58:57.119 There was a pool of blood on the pavement. 2:58:57.440 --> 2:59:00.280 Wait, I have to go back to the footage. Who 2:59:00.400 --> 2:59:01.280 was it that pulled the gun. 2:59:01.640 --> 2:59:02.480 I'm not sure it is. 2:59:02.600 --> 2:59:04.920 Oh, were you over on the police station side of 2:59:04.959 --> 2:59:05.520 the divider. 2:59:06.440 --> 2:59:08.440 I think I was running pack. 2:59:08.440 --> 2:59:10.480 I had to go back and find you in the footage. Yeah, 2:59:10.520 --> 2:59:11.760 I think the guy who pointed a gun at you 2:59:11.800 --> 2:59:12.640 is Teddy von Nucomb. 2:59:12.760 --> 2:59:14.480 Oh my god. Well if we can make that idea that. 2:59:14.520 --> 2:59:16.560 Because he pulled because he pulled the gun he did. 2:59:16.720 --> 2:59:18.440 I mean, somebody else may have pulled a gun, but 2:59:18.520 --> 2:59:19.280 Teddy pulled a gun. 2:59:19.640 --> 2:59:21.920 Okay, I need to look at a photo of Teddy 2:59:22.000 --> 2:59:24.680 van Nucam it all happened so fad Oh, oh it's 2:59:24.720 --> 2:59:27.280 that guy. Yeah, Oh my god, Oh my god. Okay, 2:59:27.640 --> 2:59:28.760 all right, let's talk about this. 2:59:28.800 --> 2:59:33.880 Way Molly here recording. After the interview was over, I 2:59:33.959 --> 2:59:36.840 went back and reviewed that footage, and my memory did 2:59:36.959 --> 2:59:37.960 fail me a little bit. 2:59:38.040 --> 2:59:38.200 Here. 2:59:38.879 --> 2:59:41.800 I was thinking about the right moment right after the 2:59:41.920 --> 2:59:44.720 victim and that beating has sort of broken away from 2:59:44.760 --> 2:59:47.119 the main portion of the assault and he's running away. 2:59:48.040 --> 2:59:51.280 The video taken by Unicorn Riot hands over to follow him, 2:59:51.840 --> 2:59:54.000 and as the camera sweeps across the area on the 2:59:54.080 --> 2:59:56.520 other side of the parking garage, you can see a 2:59:56.640 --> 3:00:00.520 Nazi named Teddy von Nucomb, that's his real name, changed it. 3:00:01.200 --> 3:00:03.000 He takes a swing at the victim with what looks 3:00:03.040 --> 3:00:06.440 like a baton, and at the same moment somebody does 3:00:06.560 --> 3:00:10.240 pull a handgun, but it's an unidentified man standing right 3:00:10.360 --> 3:00:13.480 behind Teddy von Nucom. I had the image mixed up 3:00:13.520 --> 3:00:17.000 in my recollection. Sorry about that. Teddyvon Nucum, as I 3:00:17.040 --> 3:00:20.080 said in the interview, is dead. He shot himself in 3:00:20.120 --> 3:00:22.640 the chest in twenty twenty three, the morning he was 3:00:22.680 --> 3:00:26.080 supposed to go on trial for fentanyl trafficking. I wish 3:00:26.160 --> 3:00:27.800 I could tell you who the little nazie, what the 3:00:27.840 --> 3:00:30.760 gun is, but it looks like there's no ID on him, 3:00:31.360 --> 3:00:34.840 not yet anyway. Sorry for the listener. This is something 3:00:35.400 --> 3:00:37.640 I think Chris and I have both spent probably one 3:00:37.800 --> 3:00:41.520 hundred hours looking at frame by frame video from seventeen 3:00:41.600 --> 3:00:44.760 angles of this particular assault for a variety of reasons. 3:00:44.920 --> 3:00:47.520 Right right, So, it was this brutal gang assault on 3:00:47.600 --> 3:00:50.199 this young black man, and four people went to prison 3:00:50.320 --> 3:00:52.280 for it, yes, and some people didn't. 3:00:52.400 --> 3:00:55.320 Some people didn't. And one of them was a you know, 3:00:55.480 --> 3:00:58.840 kind of a bigger white dude with a big red 3:00:58.879 --> 3:01:03.080 beard wearing a baseball cap who from then on earned 3:01:03.200 --> 3:01:06.880 the nickname Redbeard. There are all these like you mentioned, 3:01:07.000 --> 3:01:07.280 kind of. 3:01:07.800 --> 3:01:09.840 A million just like every fat guy with a red 3:01:09.879 --> 3:01:12.440 beard on the East Post has been identified as red Beard. 3:01:12.680 --> 3:01:14.440 Yes, exactly. And it was like all these like kind 3:01:14.440 --> 3:01:18.560 of amateur online sleuths. I think Sean King was in 3:01:18.600 --> 3:01:20.520 the mix for this back in the day, you know, 3:01:20.800 --> 3:01:23.440 trying to idea this guy. No one can find him. 3:01:23.800 --> 3:01:27.480 A lot of people are fossily identified. The Charlottesville Police 3:01:27.480 --> 3:01:30.680 Department can't find him. A detective puts out like a 3:01:30.760 --> 3:01:34.520 call for help, but nothing comes in eventually. And where 3:01:34.600 --> 3:01:37.360 my book kicks off in this story is there's a 3:01:37.440 --> 3:01:40.840 group of anti fascist researchers called Ignite the Right that 3:01:41.080 --> 3:01:44.360 is dedicated to identifying every Nazi that turned up in 3:01:44.440 --> 3:01:48.160 Charlottesville in twenty seventeen. And they create a database of 3:01:48.240 --> 3:01:50.760 all these photos and videos and a list of all 3:01:50.800 --> 3:01:53.720 the people that have been identified, and the list of 3:01:53.879 --> 3:01:56.640 names that they are identifying keeps on growing and growing, 3:01:57.160 --> 3:02:01.120 and they're identifying some like really crazy names. Like one 3:02:01.400 --> 3:02:04.000 of the stories I ended up doing was about a 3:02:04.360 --> 3:02:08.240 police officer who was working as Richard Spencer's personal Donnelly 3:02:08.480 --> 3:02:11.760 John Donnelly security guard in Charlottesville. So they're doing a 3:02:11.800 --> 3:02:14.920 lot of really significant docs is like that, but they 3:02:14.959 --> 3:02:20.240 still can't find red Beard. Eventually, they decide to use 3:02:20.600 --> 3:02:24.800 facial recognition, which is interesting. You know, obviously I think 3:02:24.959 --> 3:02:29.879 anti fascists out of principle are opposed to facial recognition software. 3:02:30.320 --> 3:02:33.360 But I think, you know, you kind of can't show 3:02:33.440 --> 3:02:36.720 up to a gunfight with a knife kind of situation. 3:02:37.080 --> 3:02:40.520 What that's still I think is not enough in this case, right, 3:02:40.560 --> 3:02:44.440 because the commercially available facial recognition software that you know, 3:02:44.480 --> 3:02:46.640 the average non law enforcement person would have access to 3:02:47.280 --> 3:02:51.680 really struggles with round faces like his and big beards. 3:02:52.040 --> 3:02:53.600 So he's got a big beard and a hat and 3:02:53.640 --> 3:02:55.960 his face is very round, and so it's going to 3:02:56.040 --> 3:02:59.360 pull a lot of just sort of round faced redheads, yes. 3:02:59.360 --> 3:03:02.240 Exactly, and so like either, you know, there's it's a 3:03:02.360 --> 3:03:05.520 very important and anti fascist work. A facial recognition hit 3:03:05.720 --> 3:03:08.200 is never one hundred percent, you have to corroborate it. 3:03:08.320 --> 3:03:09.120 It's not enough. 3:03:09.320 --> 3:03:13.000 So they finally use facial recognition for Redbeard and they 3:03:13.040 --> 3:03:16.120 get a hit, and the hit is a baby faced, 3:03:16.800 --> 3:03:21.640 beardless like nineteen year old white dude in a army 3:03:21.760 --> 3:03:25.959 uniform at a at a base in Georgia, and he's 3:03:26.760 --> 3:03:30.280 about to shake the hand of President George W. 3:03:30.480 --> 3:03:30.760 Bush. 3:03:32.240 --> 3:03:36.600 And the reason he's photographed for this is because Bush 3:03:36.840 --> 3:03:39.879 is making a visit to this military base. I believe 3:03:39.879 --> 3:03:44.800 it's Fort Benning to announce his troop surge in Iraq. 3:03:45.160 --> 3:03:47.680 So a lot of these people are about to be 3:03:47.720 --> 3:03:49.080 sent off to his war. 3:03:49.640 --> 3:03:50.880 And then he brought the war home. 3:03:50.959 --> 3:03:52.680 And then he brought the war. Oh man, Yeah, brought 3:03:52.720 --> 3:03:56.320 the war home. And then so the anti fascist zoom 3:03:56.360 --> 3:03:59.880 in on this photo, but the name tag is Blory, 3:04:00.440 --> 3:04:03.040 so they can't figure out who Red Beard is yet. 3:04:03.800 --> 3:04:06.959 To make a long story short, I end up filing 3:04:07.200 --> 3:04:11.080 a public information request to the George W. Bush Library 3:04:11.280 --> 3:04:12.240 in Texas. 3:04:12.040 --> 3:04:13.600 Right, because they would have had to vet everyone who 3:04:13.680 --> 3:04:14.000 was there. 3:04:13.959 --> 3:04:17.680 Yes, exactly, and if the president's yeah, and you know 3:04:18.240 --> 3:04:20.920 my angle on it is that I ask for higher 3:04:20.959 --> 3:04:26.320 resolution photos. We get the higher resolution photos and zoom 3:04:26.400 --> 3:04:29.880 in and sure enough, there is his last name, Hilman. 3:04:30.600 --> 3:04:33.040 Now all we have is the last name. So there's 3:04:33.040 --> 3:04:36.000 a lot more work to do. These anti fascists go 3:04:36.080 --> 3:04:40.000 through military yearbooks. They don't find anything. They go through 3:04:40.080 --> 3:04:43.840 so many social media accounts, until eventually, one day they 3:04:43.920 --> 3:04:47.560 see a Facebook account that belongs to a man named 3:04:47.640 --> 3:04:48.400 Jay Heilman. 3:04:48.879 --> 3:04:51.400 It's crazy he still had Facebook all these years later. 3:04:51.680 --> 3:04:55.080 Oh it's it's wild. And there are photos of him 3:04:55.200 --> 3:04:59.560 in the military being sent overseas somewhere. And then they 3:04:59.600 --> 3:05:02.560 take no notice of this one particular detail, which is 3:05:02.760 --> 3:05:07.520 that there is this meme he posts of fucking Tom 3:05:07.600 --> 3:05:13.000 Hardy from The Dark Knight and he's saying the fire rises, right, 3:05:13.080 --> 3:05:15.840 it's that meme of him saying the fire rises, which, 3:05:15.879 --> 3:05:18.200 of course, in like the Dark Knight is supposed to 3:05:18.280 --> 3:05:20.920 mean like all this like death and destruction is about 3:05:20.959 --> 3:05:23.840 to commence, Like it's a phrase you hear in fascist 3:05:23.879 --> 3:05:26.240 circle sometimes kind of us like a half joke. But 3:05:26.640 --> 3:05:29.680 what was interesting about the meme wasn't so much the 3:05:29.720 --> 3:05:33.440 meme itself, but where and when Facebook said it was posted. 3:05:34.000 --> 3:05:35.960 He left the location deatha on it. 3:05:36.200 --> 3:05:39.680 He left the location on it, which was Charlottesville, Virginia, 3:05:40.000 --> 3:05:44.840 August twelfth, twenty seventeen. So that is how they unlock 3:05:44.920 --> 3:05:47.119 the identity of Red Beard. You know, there's a lot 3:05:47.160 --> 3:05:49.320 more to the story in the book, and I think 3:05:50.320 --> 3:05:54.080 I will be identifying Red Beard in a news story 3:05:54.200 --> 3:05:56.840 somewhere soon, so look out for that. 3:05:57.720 --> 3:06:00.440 I love to hear it. Make Joe Platania answer for 3:06:00.520 --> 3:06:01.760 his refusal to prosecutes. 3:06:02.080 --> 3:06:02.600 Yes, yea. 3:06:02.959 --> 3:06:04.720 And it's not enough to say the victim doesn't want 3:06:04.720 --> 3:06:07.320 to cooperate, because you don't need victim cooperation to prosecute 3:06:07.360 --> 3:06:09.320 malicious wounding in the Commonwealth of Virginia. 3:06:09.879 --> 3:06:11.240 Sorry, Joe, you heard it here first. 3:06:12.640 --> 3:06:14.200 I was hooting and hollering when I got to that 3:06:14.280 --> 3:06:17.000 part of the book. I can't believe it because I 3:06:17.080 --> 3:06:20.320 had heard he had heard through the grape vine that 3:06:20.400 --> 3:06:22.800 the prosecutor was aware of his identity and had chosen 3:06:22.879 --> 3:06:25.560 not to prosecute. But I didn't know his identity. So 3:06:25.720 --> 3:06:26.280 what a thrill? 3:06:26.640 --> 3:06:26.840 Yeah? 3:06:27.080 --> 3:06:30.400 Yeah, it was a real journey. My ex at the 3:06:30.480 --> 3:06:32.840 time joked that there was a third person in our 3:06:32.879 --> 3:06:35.200 relationship and that person was red Beard, because I was 3:06:35.440 --> 3:06:36.800 so obsessed with trying to find him. 3:06:37.360 --> 3:06:40.720 I mean, truly, truly a white whale. Yeah, in I 3:06:40.760 --> 3:06:42.119 guess several senses of the word. 3:06:43.080 --> 3:06:43.760 Yeah exactly. 3:06:45.120 --> 3:06:47.120 But like I said, I promised I wouldn't take up 3:06:47.120 --> 3:06:49.200 a ton of your time. I'm just so excited about 3:06:49.240 --> 3:06:51.560 this book, about this story. It's not just for your 3:06:51.640 --> 3:06:54.040 dad who doesn't know what antiva is. Yes, I thought 3:06:54.080 --> 3:06:56.560 it was thrilling. I learned a lot about some guys 3:06:56.600 --> 3:06:58.000 I've been thinking about for years. 3:06:58.720 --> 3:07:01.320 Right, Yeah, that means the world to me, MOLLI thank you. 3:07:02.160 --> 3:07:05.240 And you also have been such an important voice in 3:07:05.320 --> 3:07:07.280 these spaces in helping me out over the year, so 3:07:07.879 --> 3:07:08.520 I appreciate it. 3:07:08.879 --> 3:07:10.960 I'm so thrilled. Thank you so much for coming on. 3:07:11.520 --> 3:07:14.760 People can pre order the book to Catch a Fascist 3:07:14.840 --> 3:07:17.440 The Fight to Expose the Radical Right by Christopher Matthias. 3:07:18.000 --> 3:07:20.080 You can pre order it now from Simon and Schuster 3:07:20.240 --> 3:07:23.199 and it comes out February third. Wherever you buy your books, 3:07:23.640 --> 3:07:26.560 don't buy it at Amazon. I'm going to make sure 3:07:26.640 --> 3:07:29.080 my local anarchist bookstore has put it in order for it. 3:07:29.480 --> 3:07:31.560 You should all do the same. What else do you 3:07:31.560 --> 3:07:33.200 want to plug? Where can people find you online? 3:07:34.080 --> 3:07:37.760 Yeah? So I'm freelancing these days for different places. Guardian 3:07:37.959 --> 3:07:40.920 MS now the Nation Slate, so look out for me there, 3:07:41.360 --> 3:07:44.000 but you can mostly just find me on Let's Go 3:07:44.120 --> 3:07:48.360 Matthias on Blue Sky, and I'm still on the Nazi site, 3:07:48.360 --> 3:07:49.600 but don't really post there anymore. 3:07:49.920 --> 3:07:52.640 At Let's Go Matthias as well wonderful and like I said, 3:07:52.800 --> 3:07:54.200 make sure you pre order that book. 3:07:54.280 --> 3:07:55.160 It is a fun read. 3:07:55.600 --> 3:07:57.560 Buy a copy for your dad who's scared of Antifa. 3:07:58.480 --> 3:08:00.920 Yes, please, thank thank you so much, thank you. 3:08:14.520 --> 3:08:18.320 This is it could happen here Executive Disorder, our weekly 3:08:18.400 --> 3:08:20.720 news cast covering what's happening in the White House, the 3:08:20.840 --> 3:08:24.119 crumbling world, and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis. 3:08:24.480 --> 3:08:28.279 Today I'm joined by Mia Wong, James Stout, and Robert Evans. 3:08:28.720 --> 3:08:32.920 This episode, we're covering the week of January twenty first 3:08:33.120 --> 3:08:39.800 to January twenty eighth. Massive snowstorm across most of the country, 3:08:40.400 --> 3:08:42.280 at least the real parts of the country, which is 3:08:42.360 --> 3:08:45.760 the East coast in the south. Now, and wow, there 3:08:45.840 --> 3:08:47.920 is a lot of snow. It makes me feel kind 3:08:47.959 --> 3:08:50.879 of like a penguin just walking off to the mountains 3:08:51.480 --> 3:08:57.520 by myself, weathering the weather. Finally, I feel akin to 3:08:58.720 --> 3:09:01.879 the President, who is now so a suicidal penguin. 3:09:02.480 --> 3:09:03.760 At the wrong end of the globe. 3:09:03.920 --> 3:09:04.160 Yeah. 3:09:04.760 --> 3:09:07.600 Yeah, well, you know, as soon as they start the remigration, 3:09:07.920 --> 3:09:12.760 they're going to be deporting penguins Stuffland Greenland. Yeah, it's 3:09:12.840 --> 3:09:15.879 held in a military detention camp off of Greenland. Now 3:09:15.959 --> 3:09:19.440 that we might own a tiny bit of our military base. 3:09:20.200 --> 3:09:22.840 Still very unclear what the details of that Greenland deal are. 3:09:23.080 --> 3:09:26.520 No, he just wanted to be able to say he 3:09:26.600 --> 3:09:29.120 made a deal. And I don't know if it's going 3:09:29.160 --> 3:09:30.959 to be any different than the status quo was before. 3:09:31.080 --> 3:09:34.240 But he'll claim victory and so will his supporters, and we'll. 3:09:34.120 --> 3:09:37.400 All move on as we kind of already have. 3:09:37.959 --> 3:09:40.000 Yep, there's too much other bullshit going on. 3:09:40.400 --> 3:09:42.120 That is the motto for twenty twenty six. 3:09:43.400 --> 3:09:48.279 Some of that bullshit is the third immigration enforcement related 3:09:48.320 --> 3:09:52.840 shooting in Minneapolis in just three weeks, James, do you want. 3:09:52.720 --> 3:09:53.640 To start with that? 3:09:54.360 --> 3:09:56.880 So, yeah, I was in Minneapolis. I was actually just 3:09:57.160 --> 3:10:01.000 in Minneapolis Airport when this happened. On Saturday of this week, 3:10:01.200 --> 3:10:05.439 Alex Pretty was shot by two CBP agents in Minneapolis 3:10:05.720 --> 3:10:08.840 while he was filming an immigration raid in which ICE 3:10:08.879 --> 3:10:12.560 agents attempted to pursue someone into a donut shop that 3:10:12.640 --> 3:10:15.640 seemed to have locked the doors. Pretty seemed to be 3:10:16.280 --> 3:10:18.160 trying to assist a woman who had been pushed to 3:10:18.200 --> 3:10:21.280 the ground by agents when the agents grabbed him, maceed him, 3:10:21.840 --> 3:10:24.520 beat him, disarmed him, and then shot him several times. 3:10:24.920 --> 3:10:27.560 Pretty he was thirty seven. It was a Veterans Affairs 3:10:27.840 --> 3:10:33.160 icy Unice and when this confrontation with immigration agents began, 3:10:33.840 --> 3:10:37.160 he was legally carrying a sig P three twenty handgun 3:10:37.480 --> 3:10:40.520 concealed inside his waistband. I can go on and summarize 3:10:40.560 --> 3:10:42.800 the video for anyone who hasn't seen it. It's obviously 3:10:42.879 --> 3:10:45.280 quite distressing, so you know, if you're gonna watch it, 3:10:45.680 --> 3:10:49.000 just know that you're going to see someone die. Video 3:10:49.080 --> 3:10:52.560 shows several agents beating Pretty. This one grabs a handgun 3:10:52.680 --> 3:10:57.120 from his inside waistband holster. Very quickly after this, ten 3:10:57.200 --> 3:11:00.400 shots are fired by at least two agents. Can here 3:11:00.560 --> 3:11:04.640 at one point an agent shouting gun, gun, He's got 3:11:04.680 --> 3:11:07.680 a gun. Yeah, And then in the aftermath, another video 3:11:07.840 --> 3:11:11.720 shows agents asking where is the gun, So it doesn't 3:11:11.720 --> 3:11:16.120 appear that the agent who cleared Pretty's gun informed the 3:11:16.200 --> 3:11:17.760 other agents that that had. 3:11:17.760 --> 3:11:21.560 Happened, though the agent that first fired at Pretty was 3:11:21.680 --> 3:11:25.360 standing right behind the agent that disarmed him and is 3:11:25.640 --> 3:11:28.879 literally like looking down at where the gun is being 3:11:29.000 --> 3:11:33.200 removed as he then seconds later starts shooting yeah. Preddy 3:11:33.240 --> 3:11:35.800 falls to the ground, then more agents fire on his 3:11:36.000 --> 3:11:38.080 body as it lays flat on the ground. 3:11:38.680 --> 3:11:38.920 Yeah. 3:11:39.360 --> 3:11:43.160 The CBP initial use of force review, which was sent 3:11:43.240 --> 3:11:47.080 to Congress today suggested that on Wednesday, Yeah, this is Wednesday, 3:11:47.160 --> 3:11:52.720 the twenty eighth, two agents fired. So we know at 3:11:52.840 --> 3:11:55.879 least two agents fired right where it's not entirely clear. 3:11:55.920 --> 3:11:58.279 I don't think if all of these were CBP agents, 3:11:58.360 --> 3:12:01.440 but at least one one of the agents who fired 3:12:01.520 --> 3:12:04.320 shots was an eight year CBP veteran. Then a range 3:12:04.360 --> 3:12:09.640 safety officer, Greg Bovino has declined to identify them because 3:12:09.840 --> 3:12:10.400 he said that. 3:12:10.440 --> 3:12:14.280 Would be doxing. That's not what that word usually means. 3:12:15.000 --> 3:12:19.680 No, DHS has claimed that Pretty had two extra magazines 3:12:19.720 --> 3:12:22.800 on his person, but I haven't seen any evidence of that. 3:12:23.160 --> 3:12:25.760 What they provided was a photograph of a sig P 3:12:25.879 --> 3:12:28.520 three twenty with a red dot site and a slide lock, 3:12:28.600 --> 3:12:31.400 backed clearly on the front seat of a vehicle with 3:12:31.520 --> 3:12:32.720 two charge courts next to it. 3:12:32.840 --> 3:12:32.920 Right. 3:12:33.000 --> 3:12:36.680 That's that's not normally how evidence is treated in a crime. 3:12:36.760 --> 3:12:39.360 That is an unusual way to go about that. But 3:12:39.520 --> 3:12:44.080 in mild the DHS Secretary Christie Nome has told reporters 3:12:44.120 --> 3:12:47.680 that Pretty attacked and impeded law enforcement and was brandishing 3:12:48.240 --> 3:12:52.880 his weapon. Videos don't show that the only time that 3:12:52.959 --> 3:12:55.800 you see his weapon is when it is removed by 3:12:56.080 --> 3:12:58.360 the agent who takes it out of this waistband. 3:12:58.400 --> 3:13:01.880 Pretty appears to be holding his black cell phone for 3:13:02.440 --> 3:13:03.680 the entirety of this interaction. 3:13:03.959 --> 3:13:05.800 Yeah, and it's very clear that it's a cell phone, 3:13:05.840 --> 3:13:09.760 right CBP agents us inches obviously from the phone in 3:13:09.840 --> 3:13:14.360 his face. Yeah, there is no reasonable claim. 3:13:14.440 --> 3:13:17.760 Now, as a rule, throughout the interaction, there was never 3:13:17.920 --> 3:13:20.240 any confusion that would have led them to believe he 3:13:20.280 --> 3:13:22.000 had a gun in his hand or to be unaware 3:13:22.000 --> 3:13:25.160 that he had been disarmed. Yeah, there's no argument for that. 3:13:26.200 --> 3:13:28.520 You can't make a case for that reasonably. People will 3:13:28.520 --> 3:13:29.240 do unreasonably. 3:13:29.320 --> 3:13:29.840 I don't care. 3:13:30.400 --> 3:13:34.240 The allegation that he attacked members repeated by FBI Director 3:13:34.320 --> 3:13:36.880 Cash Patel in the interview he gave to Fox News. 3:13:37.440 --> 3:13:40.599 I'm going to give a little video of Nomes claim. 3:13:40.800 --> 3:13:45.080 This individual impeded the law enforcement officers and attacked them. 3:13:45.920 --> 3:13:48.480 State the facts as they unfolded on the street today. 3:13:48.760 --> 3:13:52.120 We were doing a targeted operation against an illegal criminal, 3:13:52.640 --> 3:13:55.840 and this individual came with a weapon and dozens of 3:13:55.920 --> 3:14:00.240 rounds of ammunition and attacked them, And these agents took 3:14:00.320 --> 3:14:03.520 action to defend their lives and to defend the lives 3:14:03.560 --> 3:14:06.080 of the people around them, and it acted according to 3:14:06.120 --> 3:14:06.760 their training. 3:14:08.160 --> 3:14:12.720 CBP Commander at Large potentially no longer Commander at Large, 3:14:13.000 --> 3:14:17.440 Gregory Bavino, claimed that Pretty had assaulted federal agents, and 3:14:18.120 --> 3:14:22.040 throughout a press conference at Baveno, Gave referred to Pretty 3:14:22.120 --> 3:14:26.040 as a suspect and the people who killed him as victims. 3:14:26.680 --> 3:14:31.640 Vino also claimed that Pretty planned to quote, massacre law enforcement. 3:14:32.440 --> 3:14:36.000 Was he simply walking by and just happened to walk 3:14:36.080 --> 3:14:38.800 into a law enforcement situation and try to direct traffic 3:14:38.840 --> 3:14:41.520 and stand in the middle of the road and then assault, 3:14:41.920 --> 3:14:45.080 delay and obstruct law enforcement? Or was he there for 3:14:45.160 --> 3:14:49.120 a reason? Did he fall victim to that violent and 3:14:49.360 --> 3:14:54.039 heated rhetoric by a mayor Fry, a governor Waltz. Look, Dan, 3:14:54.160 --> 3:14:57.879 they're trying to portray Board of all agents and ICE 3:14:57.920 --> 3:15:02.800 agents as Gestapo, Nazi and many other words. Did this 3:15:02.920 --> 3:15:06.480 individual fall victim as many others have Okay, that one 3:15:06.520 --> 3:15:07.440 type of heated rhetoric. 3:15:07.520 --> 3:15:09.560 I want to stay focused on this incident right now, 3:15:09.720 --> 3:15:12.360 because what you were saying is that he went there 3:15:12.400 --> 3:15:16.720 to try to stop this law enforcement operation. All of 3:15:16.760 --> 3:15:20.360 the video that we have seen shows him documenting it 3:15:20.440 --> 3:15:23.240 with his cell phone, which is a lawful thing to do. 3:15:23.840 --> 3:15:26.280 And the only time he seemed to interact with law 3:15:26.360 --> 3:15:29.480 enforcement is when they went after him, when he was 3:15:29.560 --> 3:15:32.119 trying to help an individual who law enforcement pushed down. 3:15:32.240 --> 3:15:34.600 So where do you have the evidence to show that 3:15:34.680 --> 3:15:39.879 he was trying to impede that law enforcement operation. 3:15:41.360 --> 3:15:44.040 Sure, Dana, First, he was there in the scene. He 3:15:44.240 --> 3:15:48.520 was in the scene actively impeding and assaulting law enforcement 3:15:48.600 --> 3:15:49.880 to the place that's not illegal. 3:15:50.320 --> 3:15:53.040 He wasn't impeding it. He was filming it, which is 3:15:53.120 --> 3:15:55.440 a legal thing to do in the United States. 3:15:55.480 --> 3:15:59.480 And Dana, let's don't freeze frame adjudicate this now. He 3:15:59.640 --> 3:16:02.440 was there for a reason, and that reason was to 3:16:02.560 --> 3:16:08.200 impede law enforcement too. And here, and here's a good point, Dana, 3:16:08.480 --> 3:16:12.720 is the fact that de escalation techniques were utilized during 3:16:12.800 --> 3:16:17.119 this action. Those de escalation techniques, whether it was physically 3:16:17.200 --> 3:16:20.160 trying to remove them from that law enforcement scene, that 3:16:20.320 --> 3:16:22.440 active law enforcement scene in which law enforcement. 3:16:22.440 --> 3:16:24.040 I wanted to include little bit more there because I 3:16:24.080 --> 3:16:26.120 feel like that's one of the few times we've seen 3:16:26.160 --> 3:16:27.080 him not just able. 3:16:26.879 --> 3:16:30.199 To deliver his right where someone's pushed a little Yeah. 3:16:30.080 --> 3:16:31.120 Exactly, yeah. 3:16:31.640 --> 3:16:33.600 Well, and there's a thing in the video that I 3:16:33.640 --> 3:16:36.240 think is really effective where you know, you can hear 3:16:36.400 --> 3:16:38.800 him lying about the video, and then the video is 3:16:38.840 --> 3:16:42.080 playing next to it and you can just see what 3:16:42.360 --> 3:16:45.640 is happening, and then he's just saying shit, Yeah, it's a. 3:16:45.640 --> 3:16:47.480 Good piece of television news. 3:16:47.520 --> 3:16:47.760 Gost. 3:16:47.760 --> 3:16:50.879 That's another worst piece I've seen him saying they used 3:16:50.920 --> 3:16:54.080 the escalation techniques as you watch, half a dozen guys 3:16:54.240 --> 3:16:56.240 makes him in the face and then beat him. 3:16:56.440 --> 3:16:57.320 Yeah it is. 3:16:57.920 --> 3:16:59.840 I mean, there's this line I think a lot about 3:17:00.120 --> 3:17:02.560 Chapter seven of nineteen eighty four, which was the party 3:17:02.640 --> 3:17:05.040 told you not to believe your eyes, and is it 3:17:05.160 --> 3:17:08.440 was their final most important command. I mean, I don't 3:17:08.520 --> 3:17:10.040 If this ain't that, then I don't know what is. 3:17:10.400 --> 3:17:13.480 Yeah, I mean yeah, they don't even try to convincingly 3:17:13.560 --> 3:17:14.520 lie at this point. 3:17:14.800 --> 3:17:17.640 Like they just keep to the narrative that has been 3:17:17.720 --> 3:17:18.400 set at the top. 3:17:18.600 --> 3:17:18.800 Yeah. 3:17:19.160 --> 3:17:20.640 Well not even in this case at the top. It 3:17:20.720 --> 3:17:23.720 was kind of set at like the upper middle ycause 3:17:23.760 --> 3:17:26.440 the top has been backing off from this narrative at 3:17:26.480 --> 3:17:27.280 least a little bit. 3:17:27.800 --> 3:17:29.360 We'll get to the kind of back and forth in 3:17:29.400 --> 3:17:31.880 a sack. But I mean, it's very clear from this 3:17:32.000 --> 3:17:34.200 that they just consider blowing a whistle to be impeded, 3:17:34.320 --> 3:17:36.680 like that's that's all the justification that they need. Stay 3:17:36.760 --> 3:17:39.720 consider his presence there as long as you are physically 3:17:39.840 --> 3:17:40.400 presence there. 3:17:40.480 --> 3:17:43.080 Yeah, anything you do that they don't like is assaulting 3:17:43.120 --> 3:17:44.400 an officer at this point. 3:17:44.400 --> 3:17:47.480 Yes, it's kind of a minor point. But also his 3:17:47.600 --> 3:17:49.760 pronunciation of gestapo. 3:17:49.440 --> 3:17:50.880 Stopo, he does that every time. 3:17:51.120 --> 3:17:53.440 It's like, dude, we can we know, we know. 3:17:54.040 --> 3:17:57.400 Yeah, he's like, he's wearing that coat, he's wearing the 3:17:57.720 --> 3:18:03.200 fit come on and yeah, no, it's it's pretty insane. 3:18:03.320 --> 3:18:03.480 Yeah. 3:18:03.800 --> 3:18:06.040 I love the articles that are like, no, he's just 3:18:06.120 --> 3:18:11.439 wearing a traditional old style military coat. It's not stuff foker. 3:18:12.560 --> 3:18:12.959 Guys. 3:18:13.520 --> 3:18:17.120 Come on, man, I've seen a lot of Border Patrol agents, guys. 3:18:17.400 --> 3:18:20.440 No one else wears that coat. He picked that coat 3:18:20.520 --> 3:18:22.720 because of how it looks. Ye, to my knowledge, that's 3:18:22.760 --> 3:18:24.720 not a uniform piece for the Border Patrol. 3:18:24.800 --> 3:18:27.560 No, and he's never been in the military. Yeah you 3:18:27.600 --> 3:18:30.280 know what he is and is a secret police unit anyway. 3:18:30.440 --> 3:18:32.920 Sorry, Yeah, no, I think it's a good it's worth 3:18:33.040 --> 3:18:36.840 being that one. I want to talk about this ACLU lawsuit, right, 3:18:37.120 --> 3:18:40.080 So in sworn testimonies, which are part of this ongoing lawsuit. 3:18:40.240 --> 3:18:43.440 Multiple witnesses said Pretty did not brandish or draw his 3:18:43.560 --> 3:18:46.520 handgun quote. I have read the statement from DHS about 3:18:46.560 --> 3:18:48.680 what happened, and it is wrong. The man did not 3:18:48.760 --> 3:18:50.840 approach the agents with a gun. He approached him with 3:18:50.879 --> 3:18:53.000 a camera. He was just trying to help a woman 3:18:53.080 --> 3:18:54.800 get up, and they took him to the ground. 3:18:55.120 --> 3:18:55.560 One set. 3:18:55.840 --> 3:19:00.200 Another witness, a doctor was prevented from performing CPR are 3:19:00.680 --> 3:19:03.000 quote none of the ICE agents who were near the 3:19:03.040 --> 3:19:07.760 victim were performing CPR, they said. Agents demanded the physician's license, 3:19:07.800 --> 3:19:08.840 which evidently they did not have. 3:19:09.040 --> 3:19:09.120 Right. 3:19:09.160 --> 3:19:11.640 They just ran out of their house in their pajamas. 3:19:12.000 --> 3:19:14.680 Their testimony continues, quote, I could tell the victim was 3:19:14.720 --> 3:19:17.880 in critical condition. I insisted the ICE agents let me 3:19:17.959 --> 3:19:20.440 assess him. Did They appeared to be operating on the 3:19:20.480 --> 3:19:22.440 assumption that these people ICE, some of them were CBP. 3:19:22.520 --> 3:19:23.200 I should just say that. 3:19:23.879 --> 3:19:26.720 They also noted that agents quote appeared to be counting 3:19:26.800 --> 3:19:31.040 his bullet wounds. Yeah, Jesus, and there is video that 3:19:31.240 --> 3:19:34.640 shows him doing bizarre things to his remains that are 3:19:34.720 --> 3:19:37.480 not within the remit of trauma care or first to aid. 3:19:37.600 --> 3:19:41.440 In my experience in training, which is pretty significant when 3:19:41.440 --> 3:19:44.080 it comes to like this exact scenario. 3:19:44.680 --> 3:19:47.480 The documents that released today said that they placed the 3:19:47.560 --> 3:19:48.920 chess seals on him. 3:19:48.959 --> 3:19:51.320 They were placing chess seals on him. Yeah, yeah, that 3:19:51.440 --> 3:19:53.280 might explain. It looks like that're sort of pulling up 3:19:53.360 --> 3:19:53.920 on his shirt. 3:19:54.360 --> 3:19:56.440 I mean, this whole again, this whole incident is very 3:19:57.160 --> 3:20:00.800 very clearly documented with video multiple angles. After the shooting, 3:20:01.560 --> 3:20:03.959 an agent is like on top of his body, screaming 3:20:04.080 --> 3:20:06.880 for scissors to cut off his clothing. Yeah, and then 3:20:07.040 --> 3:20:10.920 later they placed chess seals. According to that document that 3:20:11.000 --> 3:20:13.440 was released to Congress. Yeah, we have not to carry 3:20:13.480 --> 3:20:16.039 scissors in your first day kit when you were in outraualmushes. 3:20:16.160 --> 3:20:17.800 But mine quimal, I guess. 3:20:17.959 --> 3:20:19.640 I mean these guys don't know what they were doing. 3:20:19.879 --> 3:20:21.640 Yeah, yeah, exactly, that's the thing, right. 3:20:22.160 --> 3:20:24.520 Bavina also noted in his press conference that the agents 3:20:24.640 --> 3:20:27.640 were still at work, but they had been redeployed for 3:20:27.760 --> 3:20:32.600 their safety. Outside of the Twin Cities. Following the shooting, 3:20:32.760 --> 3:20:35.480 a vigil was held and there were protests, including some 3:20:35.920 --> 3:20:40.640 armed presents. In the protests, Minneapolis Police Department attempted to 3:20:41.120 --> 3:20:44.680 hold the space both to keep the vigil away, and 3:20:44.800 --> 3:20:47.039 the earlier that day they had refused to leave when 3:20:47.080 --> 3:20:50.160 told to do so by federal police. Later that night, 3:20:50.320 --> 3:20:55.160 they deployed extensive lefleithor munitions to clear the vigil. 3:20:55.920 --> 3:20:58.920 Let's go on ad break and then return to discuss 3:20:59.040 --> 3:21:03.080 the back. In fourth characterization of the shooting from Trump's cabinet, 3:21:14.840 --> 3:21:19.359 we are back. The day after the shooting, Cash Pattel 3:21:19.520 --> 3:21:22.360 went on Fox News to say that it is against 3:21:22.440 --> 3:21:25.519 the law to bring a firearm to a protest. 3:21:25.800 --> 3:21:27.000 Nope, here's a clip. 3:21:27.400 --> 3:21:31.440 I guess Christy said. You cannot bring a firearm loaded 3:21:31.600 --> 3:21:34.600 with multiple magazines to any sort of protests that you want. 3:21:34.640 --> 3:21:36.920 It's that simple. You don't have that right to break 3:21:36.959 --> 3:21:39.600 the law and incite violent That's wrong. 3:21:39.720 --> 3:21:42.520 In Minnesota, it is not against the law for permit 3:21:42.560 --> 3:21:45.080 holders to carry a firearm well attending a protest. And 3:21:45.400 --> 3:21:48.840 it's arguable whether what pretty was doing is even a 3:21:48.879 --> 3:21:54.080 quote unquote attending a protest. These sorts of spontaneous mobilizations 3:21:54.440 --> 3:21:58.240 against ice are not like a formalized we are protesting 3:21:58.360 --> 3:22:01.480 in this location at this point, to protest rally its 3:22:01.600 --> 3:22:04.920 community mobilizations. The term of protest is going to be 3:22:05.280 --> 3:22:06.480 applied a little bit loosely. 3:22:07.080 --> 3:22:07.200 Now. 3:22:07.520 --> 3:22:12.280 The DJST statement three hours after the shooting made this claim, quote, 3:22:12.760 --> 3:22:15.560 this looks like a situation where an individual wanted to 3:22:15.640 --> 3:22:20.600 do maximum damage and massacre law enforcement unquote. This is 3:22:20.720 --> 3:22:24.359 the phrase that Bavino said verbato at the press conference 3:22:24.400 --> 3:22:28.320 on Saturday following the shooting. Mm HM Miller said something 3:22:28.400 --> 3:22:32.400 similar on Twitter as he was tweeting at Democrat politicians. Quote, 3:22:32.760 --> 3:22:36.080 it would be assassin tried to murder federal law enforcement 3:22:36.480 --> 3:22:41.199 and a domestic terrorist tried to assassinate federal law enforcement. 3:22:42.520 --> 3:22:44.720 Christy Nome also had a press conference the day of 3:22:44.840 --> 3:22:48.400 the shooting where she said, quote, when you perpetuate violence 3:22:48.480 --> 3:22:52.199 against a government because of ideological reasons and for reasons 3:22:52.240 --> 3:22:55.840 to resist and perpetuate violence, that is the definition of 3:22:56.040 --> 3:23:00.520 domestic terrorism. This individual, who came with weapons and ammunition 3:23:00.760 --> 3:23:04.480 to stop a law enforcement operation of federal law enforcement 3:23:04.520 --> 3:23:11.280 officers committed an act of domestic terrorism unquote. But by Monday, 3:23:11.800 --> 3:23:16.879 the White House began softly backtracking previous detests claims about 3:23:16.920 --> 3:23:19.840 the shooting. Press Secretary Carolyn Levit so that she has 3:23:19.920 --> 3:23:23.600 not heard President Trump characterized pretty as a domestic terrorist. 3:23:24.280 --> 3:23:27.560 That same day, Fox and Friends asked DOJ attorney Todd 3:23:27.600 --> 3:23:32.320 Blanche about whether Preddy committed domestic terrorism, and he replied 3:23:32.600 --> 3:23:32.920 like this. 3:23:33.240 --> 3:23:35.879 With all your respects, ser my question is more pointed, 3:23:36.600 --> 3:23:39.480 do you believe your colleagues may have gone farther? You 3:23:39.640 --> 3:23:43.320 are an attorney at DOJ. Eighteen US Code twenty three 3:23:43.440 --> 3:23:46.480 thirty one. It has a legal definition of domestic terrorism, 3:23:46.840 --> 3:23:49.840 and it doesn't appear to most of the country that 3:23:49.920 --> 3:23:52.680 have watched the available video. And we'll see if there's 3:23:52.720 --> 3:23:54.600 bodycam video. I'd love to know if that's going to 3:23:54.640 --> 3:23:56.640 come out, if there was such a thing, But it 3:23:56.760 --> 3:24:00.000 does not appear to have met that definition of domestic terrorists. 3:24:00.040 --> 3:24:02.560 And so I'm just sort of wondering how you in 3:24:02.720 --> 3:24:05.400 the DOJ are viewing whether your colleagues may have gone 3:24:05.440 --> 3:24:05.800 too far. 3:24:07.040 --> 3:24:09.879 Look, don't I don't think anybody thinks that they were 3:24:09.920 --> 3:24:13.040 comparing what happened on Saturday to the legal definition of 3:24:13.080 --> 3:24:17.640 domestic terrorism. What we saw was a very violent altercation, 3:24:18.080 --> 3:24:20.840 and I am not going to prejudge the facts. You're right, 3:24:20.879 --> 3:24:22.400 there's a bunch of video that's out there. 3:24:22.640 --> 3:24:24.640 There's a bunch of video that we haven't seen yet. 3:24:24.959 --> 3:24:27.800 In the minutes leading up to what happened and in 3:24:27.920 --> 3:24:30.480 what happened afterwards. And you're right to the extent there's 3:24:30.560 --> 3:24:34.680 bodycam or other videos that witnesses are still providing to us. 3:24:34.879 --> 3:24:39.720 So I'm not describing it as anything except for a tragedy. 3:24:40.280 --> 3:24:42.120 That's pretty pretty wild. 3:24:42.360 --> 3:24:46.280 Two days after, Christina tried to literally give a definition 3:24:46.520 --> 3:24:49.920 of domestic terrorism at a press conference and then dooj 3:24:50.000 --> 3:24:53.120 Attorney's just claiming, no, it's not the real legal definition 3:24:53.200 --> 3:24:56.840 of domestic terrorism. Yeah, this word is just a rhetorical 3:24:56.920 --> 3:24:59.080 tool for the administration to deploy at well. 3:24:59.080 --> 3:25:01.760 Yeah, we just we're using it because we killed a 3:25:01.840 --> 3:25:04.000 guy and we wanted to shut down discussion. 3:25:04.160 --> 3:25:05.000 Yeah. Yeah. 3:25:05.320 --> 3:25:07.600 And when we didn't stick the landing because there were 3:25:07.720 --> 3:25:10.760 multiple angles on video, now we got to find something else. 3:25:11.080 --> 3:25:14.280 Yeah, And we just did this, Like how many weeks 3:25:14.320 --> 3:25:15.640 ago was the no? 3:25:15.760 --> 3:25:20.879 I mean, this whole incident shows how vital documenting interactions 3:25:21.040 --> 3:25:24.880 like this can be, and how much public opinion is 3:25:24.959 --> 3:25:29.360 something that is not just fully fully dictated by administration statements, 3:25:29.440 --> 3:25:33.200 like they tried to deploy a narrative which, after enough 3:25:33.320 --> 3:25:38.760 circulated documented footage contradicted public opinion of this incident. Formed 3:25:38.800 --> 3:25:42.680 in pretty strong opposition to the administration's claims. 3:25:42.879 --> 3:25:43.080 Yeah. 3:25:44.160 --> 3:25:48.600 Yeah, this has penetrated into a lot of places that are, 3:25:48.959 --> 3:25:53.640 under ordinary circumstances, either extremely apolitical or very conservative. 3:25:53.879 --> 3:25:54.080 Yeah. 3:25:54.480 --> 3:25:57.520 I am trying to remember, honestly, the last event that 3:25:57.600 --> 3:26:02.000 I saw between this and twenty twenty and the George 3:26:02.000 --> 3:26:05.360 Floyd uprising that had this kind of penetration into mainstream, 3:26:05.400 --> 3:26:09.480 non political society. I remember one of the biggest things 3:26:09.520 --> 3:26:12.840 that I saw was this moment of, oh, actually, this 3:26:13.000 --> 3:26:15.480 specific shooting has gone to a point where it's reaching 3:26:15.520 --> 3:26:17.600 people who normally would never hear about this stuff. Was 3:26:18.280 --> 3:26:21.840 There's an NFL commentary named Kurt Warner who used to 3:26:21.920 --> 3:26:24.960 be very famous quarterback. The only thing he ever talks 3:26:24.959 --> 3:26:27.840 about is quarterback play in football. This is the only 3:26:27.920 --> 3:26:30.840 thing he ever does. I'm not one hundred percent sure 3:26:30.879 --> 3:26:32.960 about this, but when I look back, I couldn't find 3:26:33.040 --> 3:26:37.040 him saying anything about George Floyd. And Kurt Warner came 3:26:37.080 --> 3:26:40.960 out and gave a statement about how this shooting was 3:26:41.480 --> 3:26:43.760 a horror and that the administration was lying about it, 3:26:44.720 --> 3:26:48.600 and you saw this sort of rattling through again very 3:26:48.720 --> 3:26:53.840 very conservative sports circles, which again this NFL's circle, specifically 3:26:53.879 --> 3:26:57.560 where this kind of stuff never really penetrates this weekends. 3:26:57.760 --> 3:27:01.040 You know, as as this sort of murder was happening, 3:27:01.360 --> 3:27:04.600 the NFC and AFC championship games were going on in 3:27:04.640 --> 3:27:06.600 the sort of immediate wake of this. And these are 3:27:06.760 --> 3:27:08.400 for people who don't follow football at all. These are 3:27:08.680 --> 3:27:11.040 after the super Bowl. These are this is the semifinals. 3:27:11.080 --> 3:27:12.800 The winner of these two games goes to the Super Bowl. 3:27:12.840 --> 3:27:15.760 These are the second most important games of the entire 3:27:15.920 --> 3:27:22.520 NFL season. And fans at both of these games booed 3:27:22.680 --> 3:27:26.160 the national anthem, a thing I have never heard of before. 3:27:26.959 --> 3:27:29.959 This is a football game. Yeah, that's wild. 3:27:30.080 --> 3:27:34.840 Yeah, right, like the beginning of most football games, there's 3:27:34.920 --> 3:27:38.440 a bunch of troops holding the flag and people. They 3:27:38.480 --> 3:27:40.600 didn't do this in twenty twenty. They were booing the 3:27:40.720 --> 3:27:44.440 national anthem. So one of these games was being played 3:27:44.440 --> 3:27:46.240 in Denver and the other one was being played in Seattle. 3:27:46.520 --> 3:27:49.600 And in the game in Seattle, the Fox broadcast kept 3:27:49.680 --> 3:27:52.400 cutting out the national anthem because people kept chanting fuck Ice. 3:27:52.840 --> 3:27:55.520 So they would just literally be cutting the audio anytime 3:27:55.600 --> 3:27:57.760 that happened. And this just kept happening to the entire 3:27:57.840 --> 3:27:59.800 course of this I have never seen anything like this 3:28:00.680 --> 3:28:05.560 breakthrough into sports like this. It's it's been breaking into 3:28:05.640 --> 3:28:07.959 there's a whole bunch of stories about just random groups 3:28:08.000 --> 3:28:10.680 on a reddit where it's breaking through into where you're 3:28:10.720 --> 3:28:14.119 getting statements from like, oh god, I wish I remember 3:28:14.200 --> 3:28:16.039 who on bluse guys saw this from, but the person 3:28:16.120 --> 3:28:19.640 who runs the subreddit where that's like playing your cat's 3:28:19.680 --> 3:28:21.320 but like bongo drums. 3:28:22.800 --> 3:28:23.120 About this. 3:28:23.280 --> 3:28:26.600 Yeah, I'm glad they finally spoke up. Honestly, you know, 3:28:27.280 --> 3:28:27.600 we've all. 3:28:27.600 --> 3:28:31.880 Been waiting, but like I saw this in spaces where 3:28:31.879 --> 3:28:36.400 we're like like climbing forums or climbing subreddits. 3:28:36.080 --> 3:28:39.160 Like no, because they just shot a nurse in the head. 3:28:40.000 --> 3:28:42.720 Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. This is the second time they 3:28:42.760 --> 3:28:45.080 did it. And the thing to me that I think 3:28:45.200 --> 3:28:47.440 is really significant about this happening at NFL games. Right, 3:28:48.440 --> 3:28:51.920 one of the two teams that was playing in the 3:28:52.000 --> 3:28:54.320 game in Denver is the New England Patriots. Right, the 3:28:54.360 --> 3:28:56.920 New England Patriots are famously very very close to Trump 3:28:57.800 --> 3:28:59.959 as an organization, their owner is very close to Trump. 3:29:00.720 --> 3:29:03.280 So I had remembered a story from last year about 3:29:03.360 --> 3:29:06.120 so the Patriots have a jet that is the Patriots 3:29:06.240 --> 3:29:08.120 Jet that they fly all their players around in that 3:29:08.320 --> 3:29:12.840 is has giant letters the Patriots on it. Yeah, that 3:29:13.000 --> 3:29:15.120 is technically run through a charter company. But you know, 3:29:15.200 --> 3:29:16.960 I remember last year there's a story about how their 3:29:17.040 --> 3:29:19.280 jet was doing flights to Guantanamo Bay. 3:29:19.720 --> 3:29:22.240 Sure that makes sense for the Patriots yet yeah, yeah. 3:29:22.160 --> 3:29:22.800 Yeah, right. 3:29:23.040 --> 3:29:25.160 This is the kind of organizations that we're dealing with here, right. 3:29:25.200 --> 3:29:27.200 And while I was looking into the story about the 3:29:27.280 --> 3:29:30.519 Patriots jet being used to do things to move apparently 3:29:30.680 --> 3:29:35.000 not detainees to but apparently just military people and supplies, 3:29:35.040 --> 3:29:37.359 which they do a lot, I found a completely unrelated 3:29:37.400 --> 3:29:41.119 story about a different Patriots jet in during the Biden 3:29:41.160 --> 3:29:45.119 administration doing deportation flights to Honduras. And this isn't considered 3:29:45.160 --> 3:29:47.560 an ideological thing. Oh that's just funny, Like this is 3:29:47.560 --> 3:29:50.040 the kind of conservatism you're dealing Yeah, you know, And 3:29:50.120 --> 3:29:52.120 I mean this is technically it's the contractors you're doing this, 3:29:52.240 --> 3:29:54.520 but you know, it's it's the plan with the Patriots 3:29:54.600 --> 3:29:57.039 logo on it. And they were doing deportation flights under 3:29:57.360 --> 3:30:00.840 Biden like four years three or four years ago. And 3:30:01.000 --> 3:30:05.240 now people are booing the national anthem enchanting fuck Ice 3:30:05.680 --> 3:30:07.640 a lot of the stuff that we've talked about and 3:30:07.640 --> 3:30:09.680 we're going to talk about about the way the Trump 3:30:09.680 --> 3:30:11.720 administration has been backing off of this is because they 3:30:11.800 --> 3:30:16.000 have been forced to watch the entire country go, holy shit, 3:30:16.120 --> 3:30:18.800 you just murdered this guy and then lied about it. 3:30:19.600 --> 3:30:21.240 You just executed him in the street, yeah, and light 3:30:21.280 --> 3:30:21.560 about it. 3:30:21.680 --> 3:30:21.880 Yeah. 3:30:21.920 --> 3:30:23.640 I think the lying and you can just see them. 3:30:23.680 --> 3:30:26.000 And this is also the second time they've done this 3:30:26.520 --> 3:30:27.600 in a couple of weeks. 3:30:28.080 --> 3:30:30.480 Like, the lying thing is, like, I think for a 3:30:30.520 --> 3:30:33.359 lot of people, that's the really insulting thing. It's obviously 3:30:33.440 --> 3:30:36.280 a tragedy to have someone be killed by federal law 3:30:36.320 --> 3:30:39.520 enforcement like this. Yeah, but it's just the blatantness of 3:30:39.760 --> 3:30:42.440 the lying, I think is what really activated people here. 3:30:42.680 --> 3:30:46.600 Yeah, because this is for years they've skirted by on 3:30:46.760 --> 3:30:49.320 the situations like the written house thing where you can 3:30:49.400 --> 3:30:52.920 kind of see what happens, But depending on what you 3:30:53.040 --> 3:30:56.840 bring into it ideologically, that can look like two different things, right, 3:30:57.400 --> 3:31:00.560 depending on where whether you think those protesters areangerous or 3:31:00.640 --> 3:31:02.640 not or whatever like that. That's a video that like 3:31:02.959 --> 3:31:05.360 everyone saw the same video and took something different out 3:31:05.400 --> 3:31:07.879 of it. Yeah, that's not the case with this video, 3:31:08.000 --> 3:31:11.600 or really with the Renee Good video for most people. Yeah, 3:31:11.800 --> 3:31:14.880 and it's really jarring for them, most people who were 3:31:14.920 --> 3:31:16.680 not political, because that's what we're talking about is like 3:31:16.720 --> 3:31:18.760 the sheer number of people who do not normally wait 3:31:18.840 --> 3:31:21.320 into this stuff were making a comment. They would see 3:31:21.920 --> 3:31:24.440 one of these videos that is much more like if 3:31:24.480 --> 3:31:26.360 you're just kind of coming in and watching it, it's 3:31:26.440 --> 3:31:28.480 kind of unclear what's happening, and they would go, oh, 3:31:28.560 --> 3:31:30.520 it's another big com I'm just not going to get 3:31:30.600 --> 3:31:32.520 involved with it. People are arguing about what this is. 3:31:33.000 --> 3:31:34.959 Let them argue, I'm going to go on with my life. 3:31:35.360 --> 3:31:38.680 This is very clear what's happening, very clear that they're lying, 3:31:38.840 --> 3:31:41.600 and it's just upsetting. It's deeply upsetting to even people 3:31:41.640 --> 3:31:43.320 who don't normally think about this shit. 3:31:43.680 --> 3:31:45.680 Yeah, and I think part of that too is also 3:31:46.000 --> 3:31:47.959 you know, there were a lot of people who didn't 3:31:47.959 --> 3:31:50.480 get involved with the Renee Good shooting because you know, 3:31:50.640 --> 3:31:53.680 even then, people were still like, oh, well, maybe it's complicated. 3:31:53.800 --> 3:31:58.000 But once you've seen the second shooting in two weeks 3:31:58.320 --> 3:32:00.960 where the line from the administration and he's exactly the same, 3:32:01.040 --> 3:32:03.920 and you have video images again, Yeah, that's how you 3:32:03.959 --> 3:32:05.960 get someone like Kurt Warror, who was a faith family 3:32:05.959 --> 3:32:08.200 football guy. He's very open about being a Christian, is 3:32:08.320 --> 3:32:11.800 very open about he doesn't talk about politics, but he's 3:32:11.920 --> 3:32:14.280 very obviously conservative in a way that he doesn't think 3:32:14.400 --> 3:32:17.280 is political. And he looks at this and goes, holy shit, 3:32:17.320 --> 3:32:19.320 they murdered this guy and the government's lying about it. 3:32:19.840 --> 3:32:21.880 And that's a kind of breakthrough moment in all of this. 3:32:22.600 --> 3:32:26.520 I've seen a lot of stuff from like folks in 3:32:26.840 --> 3:32:30.440 the gun community, like who you wouldn't normally expect to 3:32:30.440 --> 3:32:33.560 be critical of the Trump administration being critical. Yeah, because 3:32:33.600 --> 3:32:36.240 the Trump administration has come out with just like insane 3:32:37.600 --> 3:32:40.600 they're repeating like anti Second Amendment talking points. 3:32:41.000 --> 3:32:41.200 Yep. 3:32:41.280 --> 3:32:43.920 I also saw his name is Tony Thomas, but he 3:32:44.040 --> 3:32:47.720 was previously the commander of Special Operations Command. Right has 3:32:47.800 --> 3:32:52.480 been sharing and unfortunately AI quote unquote enhanced photo of 3:32:52.560 --> 3:32:53.160 the shooting. 3:32:53.440 --> 3:32:53.720 God. 3:32:54.520 --> 3:32:57.880 Yeah, that I need to talk a little bit about there, 3:32:57.879 --> 3:32:58.760 but please continue. 3:32:59.120 --> 3:33:01.959 Yeah, it's it's remarkable that you've got someone whose job 3:33:02.040 --> 3:33:04.200 has been killing people for the United States government, right, 3:33:04.480 --> 3:33:07.160 who've like retired to a role in investment banking. It 3:33:07.240 --> 3:33:12.600 doesn't normally make statements in public about immigration policy. But like, again, 3:33:12.720 --> 3:33:15.680 this one is kind of broken containment, right, Like they 3:33:15.760 --> 3:33:18.199 saw the police shoot a man in the back multiple 3:33:18.280 --> 3:33:22.880 times in broad daylight from multiple angles, and yeah, this 3:33:23.280 --> 3:33:24.879 one's been really hard for them, just been. 3:33:25.520 --> 3:33:25.720 Yeah. 3:33:26.040 --> 3:33:27.480 One of the things that you know, when you talk 3:33:27.520 --> 3:33:29.680 about sort of Reddit as a site of this, right, 3:33:29.920 --> 3:33:31.400 one of the things on the front page A readit 3:33:31.480 --> 3:33:34.080 for a while that day was just a thing from 3:33:34.120 --> 3:33:37.000 like r slash picks where it's a picture of a 3:33:37.080 --> 3:33:39.320 frame in this shooting and then it's a picture of 3:33:39.520 --> 3:33:42.840 a Nazi officer with a gun to the back of 3:33:42.920 --> 3:33:44.920 the head of a prisoner they're about to shoot, and 3:33:44.920 --> 3:33:47.440 it's almost identical frame for frame, And that's the kind 3:33:47.480 --> 3:33:49.360 of thing that's just going around on like the front 3:33:49.400 --> 3:33:50.040 page of Reddit. 3:33:50.320 --> 3:33:52.000 Yeah, part of what I think is happening here is 3:33:52.000 --> 3:33:53.680 they got very convinced that their ability to kind of 3:33:53.720 --> 3:33:57.360 just brute force their own reality over what actually happened, 3:33:57.480 --> 3:34:00.360 and maybe they gambled too hard. 3:34:00.720 --> 3:34:03.080 Yeah, So much of this story is like the ultimate 3:34:03.120 --> 3:34:07.280 conservative nightmare of the government physically disarming you than executing you. 3:34:08.120 --> 3:34:10.360 And that sequence of events is I think also in 3:34:10.440 --> 3:34:13.720 part what has created this pretty consistent turnarway from the 3:34:13.720 --> 3:34:17.320 Trump administrations and the dhs' is like initial statement on 3:34:17.520 --> 3:34:21.040 what happened here, which the administrations themselves have started to 3:34:21.600 --> 3:34:25.320 roll back on after the public rejected this claim that 3:34:25.400 --> 3:34:27.440 they kept making, on him being like a terrorist, him 3:34:27.600 --> 3:34:30.480 intending to massacre law enforcement, all these things that they 3:34:30.520 --> 3:34:34.360 have no way to actually prove. On Tuesday, Stephen Miller 3:34:34.720 --> 3:34:38.560 told CNN that they are quote evaluating why the CBP 3:34:38.800 --> 3:34:42.520 team may not have been following White House approved protocol 3:34:43.240 --> 3:34:45.880 and that the initial statement from DHS following the shooting 3:34:45.959 --> 3:34:50.840 was quote based on reports from CBP on the ground quote. 3:34:51.480 --> 3:34:55.240 On Wednesday, the DHS Spokespersonent Tritich McLoughlin repeated this claim 3:34:55.440 --> 3:34:56.720 on Fox Business. 3:34:57.200 --> 3:35:01.800 Secretary Nome accused Alex Prette for being a domestic terrorist. 3:35:02.560 --> 3:35:04.920 Is the administration standing by that language? 3:35:05.680 --> 3:35:09.400 So initial statements were made after reports from CBP on 3:35:09.600 --> 3:35:12.600 the ground that was a very chaotic scene. We know 3:35:12.720 --> 3:35:16.520 that our ice law enforcement are facing rampant violence against them, 3:35:16.560 --> 3:35:20.240 a highly coordinated campaign. So that is why this investigation 3:35:20.720 --> 3:35:24.080 is so important so we can get accurate facts to 3:35:24.160 --> 3:35:25.040 the American people. 3:35:25.959 --> 3:35:30.160 Trump has denied that Preddi was acting as an assassin 3:35:30.640 --> 3:35:33.560 and has called the shooting a quote unquote very unfortunate incident, 3:35:34.040 --> 3:35:36.440 but he has continued to say that Preddy should not 3:35:36.680 --> 3:35:40.039 have been carrying a gun. Quote, you can't have guns. 3:35:40.160 --> 3:35:43.359 You can't walk in with guns, you just can't unquote. 3:35:43.640 --> 3:35:47.880 Yeah, the Minnesota Gun Owners Caucus has been pretty impressive. Yeah, 3:35:48.080 --> 3:35:52.560 I'll say that, like generally right, like, especially organized gun 3:35:52.640 --> 3:35:54.680 owner groups in the United States tend to align very 3:35:54.720 --> 3:35:58.640 heavily with conservative politics. They have been like reinforcing that 3:35:58.720 --> 3:36:00.760 what pretty was doing was in no where legal, It 3:36:00.800 --> 3:36:02.280 should no way need to be being killed. 3:36:02.959 --> 3:36:03.160 Yeah. 3:36:04.160 --> 3:36:07.000 As of Wednesday, we do know now that the Border 3:36:07.040 --> 3:36:10.040 Patrol agents involved in the killing of Alex Preddy have 3:36:10.200 --> 3:36:15.120 been placed on administrative leave. Around January twenty sixth, Trump 3:36:15.360 --> 3:36:18.800 struck some kind of deal with local officials, namely Mayor 3:36:18.920 --> 3:36:22.600 Frey and Governor Tim Walls. Local officials have said that 3:36:22.680 --> 3:36:28.440 quote unquote some federal agents would begin leaving Minnesota. Bonvino 3:36:28.640 --> 3:36:32.199 is expected to return to California, with The Atlantic reporting 3:36:32.280 --> 3:36:35.480 that he's been stripped of his quote unquote Commander at 3:36:35.680 --> 3:36:39.040 Large title and has been locked out of government social 3:36:39.160 --> 3:36:43.000 media accounts. Tom Homan has arrived in Minneapolis to take 3:36:43.040 --> 3:36:47.520 over Immigration enforcement operations and local Minnesota law enforcement have 3:36:47.680 --> 3:36:51.320 ramped up their policing of protests, especially outside of hotels 3:36:51.440 --> 3:36:54.080 where ICE and Border Patrol agents have been staying. 3:36:54.800 --> 3:36:57.120 And it's important to note as as you're seeing a 3:36:57.160 --> 3:36:59.720 lot of stories about sort of ICE pulling out of Minneapolis, 3:37:00.120 --> 3:37:03.760 and you know, an administration rolled back because of the 3:37:03.800 --> 3:37:07.120 sort of Bovino movement. Everyone that I have talked to 3:37:07.240 --> 3:37:09.600 in Minneapolis, and this is a fairly large number of people, 3:37:09.640 --> 3:37:13.080 have all told me that everything on the ground remains 3:37:13.120 --> 3:37:15.040 the same. The raids are continuing, and they want to 3:37:15.120 --> 3:37:18.560 make sure that everyone understands that the raids are continuing 3:37:18.840 --> 3:37:22.000 and that the same kinds of things that ICE in 3:37:22.040 --> 3:37:24.800 the Border Patrol have been doing up until this point 3:37:24.840 --> 3:37:28.840 are continuing to happen under I guess quote unquote new management. 3:37:29.400 --> 3:37:32.680 Yeah, I think they may have withdrawn some Border Patrol agents, right, 3:37:32.720 --> 3:37:35.480 but the bulk of the people they deployed were actually 3:37:35.600 --> 3:37:39.280 ICE agents. They to my knowledge, have not been withdrawn home. 3:37:39.360 --> 3:37:43.720 And is not exactly a like a liberal figure when 3:37:43.760 --> 3:37:46.320 it comes to deportation. To build it mildly, it might 3:37:46.360 --> 3:37:49.200 be like a change in the outward appearance that the 3:37:49.280 --> 3:37:51.240 practice of what's going on that has not changed. 3:37:51.760 --> 3:37:54.240 Do we want to just have any kind of final 3:37:54.400 --> 3:37:58.360 discussion on that AI enhanced image that's been circulating. 3:37:58.920 --> 3:37:59.680 Yeah, yeah, so. 3:38:00.080 --> 3:38:02.680 There's an AI enhanced image, and this is when I 3:38:02.760 --> 3:38:05.240 posted this. I've seen people comment that like, oh, it's 3:38:05.320 --> 3:38:08.720 more disinformation from the fascist. This is the opposite of that. Yeah, 3:38:08.800 --> 3:38:12.600 someone AI enhanced a still frame from the video because 3:38:12.600 --> 3:38:14.520 there's a question as to whether or not when one 3:38:14.520 --> 3:38:17.880 of the ICE agents disarmed Preddy, did he actit negligently 3:38:18.000 --> 3:38:20.680 discharge his firearm into the ground, and did that maybe 3:38:20.760 --> 3:38:23.880 spook them and cause the remaining chain of events. I 3:38:23.920 --> 3:38:26.600 don't think it's clear. And the video is not super 3:38:26.720 --> 3:38:28.640 clear as to whether or not the gun is firing. 3:38:28.680 --> 3:38:29.480 It's kind of grainy. 3:38:29.560 --> 3:38:30.600 Yeah, we don't know that yet. 3:38:30.879 --> 3:38:34.120 So and like the new AI enhanced version, you literally 3:38:34.200 --> 3:38:36.520 see like a tongue of fire coming out of the 3:38:36.600 --> 3:38:39.800 barrel of the gun and then a full round of 3:38:39.959 --> 3:38:42.360 five to five six seems to be exiting. 3:38:43.959 --> 3:38:46.280 We like with the casing. Just make shit up. 3:38:46.560 --> 3:38:49.040 It looks like it has the casing. It looks not 3:38:49.280 --> 3:38:51.800 like a firing gun looks And the text on this 3:38:51.959 --> 3:38:54.960 is this is from the AI info Twitter account. An 3:38:55.040 --> 3:38:57.400 enhanced video of a man who disarmed Alex Preddy shows 3:38:57.440 --> 3:39:00.360 the show's gun allegedly misfiring his ice agent with it, 3:39:00.400 --> 3:39:02.240 which has also been said to have spooked other agents 3:39:02.240 --> 3:39:05.480 into firing. AI video also enhances the visuals of the bullets. 3:39:05.520 --> 3:39:07.520 It would be clearly visible to the human eye. 3:39:07.720 --> 3:39:09.640 It was like, I didn't hit shit, you had to 3:39:09.680 --> 3:39:11.840 fight you. You had the digital quivalent of a five 3:39:11.920 --> 3:39:13.040 year old scribbling on it. 3:39:13.760 --> 3:39:15.320 And you know, I don't know, Maybe I guess this 3:39:15.440 --> 3:39:17.440 could be them trying to be like, oh, it wasn't 3:39:17.480 --> 3:39:19.840 the federal agent's fault. It's those damn sig P three 3:39:19.879 --> 3:39:21.439 twenties that spooked everybody. 3:39:21.920 --> 3:39:24.440 Yeah, it's it's like number one. 3:39:24.680 --> 3:39:28.279 AI can't enhance, Yeah things, Nothing can enhance a photo 3:39:28.400 --> 3:39:30.680 that's not a thing that's real. You can't just like 3:39:31.400 --> 3:39:34.200 add details to a photo that weren't in in a 3:39:34.280 --> 3:39:36.840 way that's different from just photos shopping them in. And 3:39:37.040 --> 3:39:40.480 that's what AI did. Someone said, add visuals of a bullet, 3:39:40.640 --> 3:39:43.240 and they did, and it's bad. It looks like a 3:39:43.320 --> 3:39:45.640 fucking sparkler is stuck in the end of a handgun. 3:39:46.280 --> 3:39:49.080 But yeah, it's just shit like this that's just going 3:39:49.160 --> 3:39:54.000 to be everything, Like every clash, every murder, every controversial 3:39:54.080 --> 3:39:57.320 thing that happens, there's immediately going to be a bunch 3:39:57.400 --> 3:40:00.840 of different AI slot videos and analysis. What scares me 3:40:01.080 --> 3:40:03.200 most or not even scares me. What I think is 3:40:03.200 --> 3:40:06.520 the biggest problem isn't even just the straight up disinfo videos. 3:40:06.720 --> 3:40:08.840 It's the stuff where people are claiming, look, I did 3:40:08.959 --> 3:40:11.840 some research using this AI, and it revealed this thing 3:40:12.040 --> 3:40:14.280 that isn't immediately visible to the naked eye, but this 3:40:14.400 --> 3:40:16.680 is clearly what really went on. Yeah, and how that's 3:40:16.720 --> 3:40:20.640 going to supercharge fucking conspiracy theories about stuff, and how 3:40:20.640 --> 3:40:22.959 the response when people are like, but the AI didn't 3:40:23.080 --> 3:40:25.800 enhance anything, will just be like you're not smarter than 3:40:25.840 --> 3:40:29.280 an AI, you don't know, Like that's that's the kind 3:40:29.320 --> 3:40:31.520 of thing where it's just got to be annoying. Like 3:40:31.640 --> 3:40:35.520 the truth ecosystem is already so damaged. I certainly wouldn't 3:40:35.560 --> 3:40:39.160 say that this is going to definitely make everything worse, 3:40:39.280 --> 3:40:40.879 but it's going to make everything more annoying. 3:40:41.680 --> 3:40:41.920 Yeah. 3:40:42.600 --> 3:40:45.160 Yeah, I don't think I've seen this image that you 3:40:45.240 --> 3:40:46.920 were talking about, but I've seen a whole bunch of 3:40:47.040 --> 3:40:51.400 other like AI enhanced images of the shooting. It's specifically 3:40:51.480 --> 3:40:53.680 like the moment where where or like around the time 3:40:54.160 --> 3:40:56.879 that the agents are firing into the back of Pretty, 3:40:56.920 --> 3:41:00.640 And it's mostly like AI sharpened images, but taken to 3:41:00.800 --> 3:41:04.560 such an extreme extent that literally one of the heads 3:41:04.800 --> 3:41:07.160 of the border patrol agents is just missing. 3:41:07.760 --> 3:41:08.080 You know what. 3:41:08.920 --> 3:41:11.920 I wouldn't call that enhanced, but I'd say it's an improvement. 3:41:13.320 --> 3:41:14.600 You have to like kind of like look for it 3:41:14.640 --> 3:41:16.920 because because of how much movement is in the night, 3:41:17.120 --> 3:41:20.560 of course, but I've seen I've seen this the AI 3:41:20.720 --> 3:41:24.080 hnts like like still from the Pink Jacket Lady, oh 3:41:24.240 --> 3:41:28.520 God of the shooting. I've seen this image spread all 3:41:28.640 --> 3:41:31.800 around by by people showing like how how like brutal 3:41:31.879 --> 3:41:35.040 this looks, and it you don't need to spread this 3:41:35.200 --> 3:41:38.920 AI sharpened version with the with the head missing, like 3:41:39.160 --> 3:41:42.199 there is like regular skills that maybe are a little 3:41:42.200 --> 3:41:44.960 bit more fuzzy, but they actually are are real. And 3:41:45.080 --> 3:41:48.320 you've seen a few other like AI altered images spreading 3:41:48.800 --> 3:41:52.160 around around this shooting. Specifically, there's been like AI altered 3:41:52.200 --> 3:41:55.640 images of Alex Pretty that like slightly changes his like 3:41:55.720 --> 3:41:59.200 facial proportions that have been used at some like memorials 3:41:59.240 --> 3:42:01.880 have been have been running on the internet, and that 3:42:02.040 --> 3:42:05.480 sort of stuff has been incredibly frustrating just to see 3:42:05.520 --> 3:42:09.160 the sort of proliferation of these of these AI images 3:42:09.240 --> 3:42:10.279 into like the news cycle. 3:42:10.760 --> 3:42:14.320 I shared the enhanced image that looks really bad. It's 3:42:14.440 --> 3:42:15.000 really bad. 3:42:15.640 --> 3:42:18.160 That's like, that's like, wow, I've not seen that. Yeah, 3:42:18.400 --> 3:42:20.880 it's like a kidergartender. It's unreal. 3:42:21.160 --> 3:42:22.400 You don't need to do this like that. People that 3:42:22.440 --> 3:42:25.320 have seen the footage knows what happened. You don't need 3:42:25.360 --> 3:42:27.320 to spread these fake images like public opinion is already 3:42:27.360 --> 3:42:27.720 formed on this. 3:42:27.959 --> 3:42:28.160 Yeah. 3:42:28.440 --> 3:42:30.240 Well we'll go on ad break again, but I think 3:42:30.320 --> 3:42:33.280 to close this section, I'll play the short clip from 3:42:34.160 --> 3:42:38.600 the Minnesota timber Wolves game, which is which is a 3:42:38.640 --> 3:42:42.360 basketball game, I believe, Yeah, which they held a moment 3:42:42.400 --> 3:42:46.600 of silence for pretty and people chanted Towards the end, 3:42:46.840 --> 3:42:48.879 I'll shorten the moment of silence. 3:42:48.959 --> 3:42:51.680 For the audience, but you can take a listen. 3:42:51.800 --> 3:42:55.200 Here are the tragic laws of Alex Purty that occurred 3:42:55.280 --> 3:42:59.959 yesterday in Minneapolis. We extend our love, support and heartfields 3:43:00.000 --> 3:43:03.680 some of these two Alex's family friends in our community 3:43:03.800 --> 3:43:07.600 during this difficult time. Please join us in honoring the 3:43:07.720 --> 3:43:11.359 life and memory of Alex Pritty with a moment of silence. 3:43:32.760 --> 3:43:37.520 All right, we're back. After the shooting. On Saturday, Chuck 3:43:37.640 --> 3:43:41.920 Schumer said that Senate Democrats would not be advancing a 3:43:42.080 --> 3:43:46.840 House approved appropriations bill with the currently included DAHS funding 3:43:47.440 --> 3:43:50.560 Right now. The Senate is considering a six bill spending 3:43:50.640 --> 3:43:53.080 package that was narrowly approved by the House thanks to 3:43:53.120 --> 3:43:57.080 seven Democrats, and now Senadems are seeking to separate out 3:43:57.320 --> 3:44:01.960 the DHS bill and advance the five others. These six 3:44:02.080 --> 3:44:05.280 annual spending bills are set to expire on January thirty first. 3:44:05.959 --> 3:44:08.560 If at least some Democrats don't sign on to the 3:44:08.640 --> 3:44:11.760 bills by Friday, there will be a partial government shutdown 3:44:12.280 --> 3:44:16.480 on Wednesday. Schumer reiterated, quote until ICE is properly rained 3:44:16.520 --> 3:44:21.040 in and overhauled legislatively, the DHS funding bill doesn't have 3:44:21.240 --> 3:44:25.760 the votes to pass the Senate unquote. Possible immigration enforcement 3:44:25.840 --> 3:44:29.400 concessions that Democrats are pushing for include, but are not 3:44:29.480 --> 3:44:34.640 limited to, independent investigations into the recent shootings, mandating judicial 3:44:34.680 --> 3:44:39.359 warrants for immigration arrests, mandating body cams, requiring agent identification, 3:44:39.720 --> 3:44:44.200 no masks, no arrest quotas, no roving patrols and restricting 3:44:44.400 --> 3:44:46.879 border patrol agents to the US border. 3:44:47.640 --> 3:44:50.400 Yeah, so I want to address I've actually addressed the 3:44:50.520 --> 3:44:54.320 roving patrols before, and that the evidence standards for stops 3:44:54.360 --> 3:44:55.840 on those patrols. I'm not going to do that, but 3:44:55.920 --> 3:44:58.600 I do want to address this last one right with 3:44:58.760 --> 3:45:02.680 the quote unquote US border. So in the statute, border 3:45:02.720 --> 3:45:06.440 patrol is supposed to operate within a reasonable distance of 3:45:06.520 --> 3:45:09.200 the United States border, which they interpret to be a 3:45:09.320 --> 3:45:12.960 one hundred mile distance. Now, when you are thinking of border, 3:45:13.120 --> 3:45:15.200 you might be thinking of land borders, but remember this 3:45:15.360 --> 3:45:19.320 also includes ocean borders. They interpret the Great Lakes to 3:45:19.400 --> 3:45:23.320 be international waterways, and thus it begins one hundred miles 3:45:23.400 --> 3:45:26.720 from the shore of the Great Lakes. For context, That 3:45:26.800 --> 3:45:30.879 still doesn't get you into Minneapolis, right, You're looking at 3:45:30.920 --> 3:45:32.880 a bit further. One hundred and fifty miles was the 3:45:32.920 --> 3:45:35.400 shortest line I could draw on a map. People seem 3:45:35.440 --> 3:45:40.279 to be operating under the misapprehension that this includes airports 3:45:40.400 --> 3:45:44.000 and it does not. And I keep seeing this repeated online, 3:45:44.040 --> 3:45:46.600 and then people keep telling me the statue is actually 3:45:46.840 --> 3:45:49.640 very clear on what does and does not constitute a border, 3:45:49.720 --> 3:45:52.720 and it has talked about external borders and airports are 3:45:52.800 --> 3:45:56.080 not included in this. Border Patrol does not operate within 3:45:56.120 --> 3:45:58.680 one hundred mile radius of every international airport in the 3:45:58.800 --> 3:45:59.440 United States. 3:46:00.280 --> 3:46:03.200 Really unclear if Democrats will be able to get some 3:46:03.360 --> 3:46:07.199 of these things. Obviously, pushing for more training has its limits. 3:46:07.440 --> 3:46:10.400 The people involved in the shooting had years and years 3:46:10.440 --> 3:46:13.400 of training and gave the training. In some case, they 3:46:13.480 --> 3:46:15.680 were doing what they were trained to do. Yeah, but 3:46:15.879 --> 3:46:18.800 there's other stuff in here, like like mandating body cams, 3:46:18.879 --> 3:46:23.000 which though Border Patrol currently has body cams. ICE in 3:46:23.000 --> 3:46:25.240 Border Patrol they have body cams, they're not required to 3:46:25.280 --> 3:46:27.480 always have them on. This will be seeking to change that. 3:46:27.959 --> 3:46:32.200 Other things like requiring the identification of agents deployed, not 3:46:32.360 --> 3:46:36.920 wearing masks, not having arrest quotas. These would significantly change 3:46:37.000 --> 3:46:39.920 the way that ICE operates on the ground. Possibly the 3:46:40.000 --> 3:46:43.880 most important thing that they are seeking here is the 3:46:44.000 --> 3:46:47.560 emphasis on judicial wards as opposed to this administrative warrant 3:46:48.160 --> 3:46:51.200 that ICE has been using as its primary justification the 3:46:51.360 --> 3:46:52.080 past few months. 3:46:52.440 --> 3:46:54.560 I think we should refer to those I've been called 3:46:54.640 --> 3:46:56.280 the ad ministry of warrants. I think a better I 3:46:56.320 --> 3:46:59.120 guess down to use is the form two fifteen, because 3:46:59.160 --> 3:47:01.520 that's what it is, a form that they filled out 3:47:01.680 --> 3:47:04.760 right like it. It's not a warrant in any meaningful 3:47:04.840 --> 3:47:05.560 sense of the word. 3:47:05.720 --> 3:47:05.920 Yeah. 3:47:06.040 --> 3:47:08.120 But yeah, I'm just noting that because that's a change 3:47:08.160 --> 3:47:09.600 I'm going to be trying to implement in my work 3:47:09.640 --> 3:47:10.120 going forward. 3:47:10.720 --> 3:47:13.560 The last Minneapolis related story for this episode, which is 3:47:14.360 --> 3:47:17.640 mostly Minneapolis episode I Guess Yeah, is based on a 3:47:17.760 --> 3:47:21.480 CNN report that has claimed that federal agents encountered Alex 3:47:21.520 --> 3:47:25.520 Pretty a week prior to killing him. Pretty is said 3:47:25.520 --> 3:47:27.600 to have been driving and stopped his car when he 3:47:27.720 --> 3:47:31.480 witnessed ICE agents chasing a family on foot. Pretty began 3:47:31.600 --> 3:47:34.600 shouting and blowing a whistle before agents tackled Pretty and 3:47:34.720 --> 3:47:37.840 broke one of his ribs. Party was later released on 3:47:37.959 --> 3:47:40.240 the scene. DHS has told CNN that they have no 3:47:40.320 --> 3:47:43.400 record on this incident, though an anonymous source told CNN 3:47:43.720 --> 3:47:47.680 that Pretty was a known and identified protester to federal 3:47:47.879 --> 3:47:52.680 officials on the ground, quoting CNN quote. Earlier this month, 3:47:52.720 --> 3:47:55.680 the DHS official in Minneapolis sent a memo to Immigrations 3:47:55.680 --> 3:47:59.640 and Customers Enforcement, Homeland Security Investigations officers assigned to the state, 3:48:00.000 --> 3:48:02.720 and a temporary duty asking them to use a form 3:48:02.959 --> 3:48:08.160 to input information on protesters and agitators. It is unclear 3:48:08.280 --> 3:48:11.440 whether the new intake form was used to share Pretty's information. 3:48:11.959 --> 3:48:14.640 It's also not clear whether federal agents who encountered Pretty 3:48:14.720 --> 3:48:17.640 on Saturday recognized him before they confronted him. 3:48:19.120 --> 3:48:23.400 Yeah, it's definitely HSI that has been doing the federal 3:48:23.480 --> 3:48:27.680 stuff that involves citizens, I guess, right, like when they 3:48:27.720 --> 3:48:30.480 are investigating detaining people. I know Pam Bondi is there 3:48:30.520 --> 3:48:33.959 today again and it has posted pictures of people who 3:48:34.000 --> 3:48:37.240 are detained with HSI officers, which is not a usual 3:48:37.360 --> 3:48:42.600 thing to do. But yeah, HSI, for whatever reason, they're 3:48:42.680 --> 3:48:47.680 kind of using as their like surrogate FBI in these instances. 3:48:48.280 --> 3:48:50.920 Jason, you can also speak on the sort of like 3:48:51.000 --> 3:48:56.000 surveillance of protesters quote unquote agitators that Feds have been 3:48:56.080 --> 3:48:58.280 doing on the ground based on what you saw in Minneapolis. 3:48:58.640 --> 3:48:59.640 Yeah, that's thank you, Gay. 3:48:59.680 --> 3:49:01.920 Yeah, So, like I was at the Whipple Building, right, 3:49:01.920 --> 3:49:04.440 the Whipple Building being the federal building in Minneapolis where 3:49:04.480 --> 3:49:06.920 they are taking people who are being detained and where 3:49:07.040 --> 3:49:09.560 ICE and CBP are deploying out of every day, right, 3:49:09.800 --> 3:49:11.360 I would say there because there was a protest on 3:49:11.440 --> 3:49:14.080 Friday as part of a general strike, and I noticed 3:49:14.840 --> 3:49:17.440 they look like CBPO ice right then they had like 3:49:18.280 --> 3:49:20.400 what I would describe with tactical helmets and gear on, 3:49:20.560 --> 3:49:25.000 but using DSLR cameras to take pictures of people protesting. 3:49:25.520 --> 3:49:27.920 They were in vehicles and they were shooting. I can't 3:49:27.920 --> 3:49:30.000 remember they had the door or the window to allow 3:49:30.040 --> 3:49:33.440 them to take photographs. But I noticed, like that is 3:49:33.480 --> 3:49:37.760 an effort at surveillance, right, It is not unreasonable. I know, Garrison, 3:49:37.800 --> 3:49:40.160 you also have this video which happened in Maine, right 3:49:40.240 --> 3:49:42.400 of an agent more or less saying this, But it's 3:49:42.520 --> 3:49:45.480 not unreasonable to think that there is surveillance of people 3:49:45.480 --> 3:49:48.200 who are engaging in First Amendment protected activities. 3:49:49.040 --> 3:49:52.280 Yes, and there has been some desire among ICE officials, 3:49:52.320 --> 3:49:54.680 including Tom Hollman, who went on Fox News earlier this 3:49:54.800 --> 3:49:58.080 month to say that he's pushing for a database quote 3:49:58.200 --> 3:50:00.840 where those people that are arrested for an interference, impeding, 3:50:00.920 --> 3:50:03.760 and assault, we're going to make them famous unquote. So 3:50:03.920 --> 3:50:07.120 this news that Alex Freddy had been previously identified in 3:50:07.200 --> 3:50:11.400 some way by federal law enforcement follows an incident last 3:50:11.560 --> 3:50:15.520 Friday where a federal agent in Maine photographed a legal 3:50:15.600 --> 3:50:19.320 observer's car and said, quote, we have a nice little database, 3:50:19.360 --> 3:50:22.280 and you're now considered a domestic terrorist. I'll play this 3:50:22.360 --> 3:50:22.800 clip here. 3:50:23.240 --> 3:50:24.840 It's not illegal to record. 3:50:26.200 --> 3:50:26.600 Exactly. 3:50:26.920 --> 3:50:28.800 Yeah, that's what we're doing. Yeah, why are you taking 3:50:28.800 --> 3:50:31.480 my information down? Because we have a nice little database. 3:50:31.640 --> 3:50:36.600 Oh good, and now you're considerable domestic terrorists. So we're 3:50:36.720 --> 3:50:37.640 videotaping you. 3:50:39.040 --> 3:50:39.960 Are you crazy? 3:50:42.400 --> 3:50:45.520 Georgia McLaughlin has told CNN that there is quote no 3:50:45.880 --> 3:50:49.480 database of quote unquote domestic terrorists run by the Department 3:50:49.560 --> 3:50:51.480 of Homeland Security unquote. 3:50:51.960 --> 3:50:52.160 Yeah. 3:50:52.600 --> 3:50:54.920 I want to say something about this main video, which 3:50:54.960 --> 3:50:56.920 is that I've been seeing a lot of people circulating 3:50:57.000 --> 3:51:00.800 this is Oh, there's new repression tactics app here. They're 3:51:00.800 --> 3:51:02.760 going to show up to people's houses. This has been happening. 3:51:03.440 --> 3:51:05.400 I mean, I know it was happening in Chicago. It 3:51:05.560 --> 3:51:08.280 probably was happening in la I just don't remember off 3:51:08.320 --> 3:51:08.920 the top of my head. 3:51:08.960 --> 3:51:10.040 But the stuff that's. 3:51:10.080 --> 3:51:12.840 Happening here where these people take pictures of your face 3:51:12.920 --> 3:51:14.600 is not new at all. It's not some kind of 3:51:14.680 --> 3:51:18.640 new innovation in these repression tactics. Like, obviously be careful, 3:51:18.720 --> 3:51:22.080 but this is not a reason that everyone suddenly needs 3:51:22.160 --> 3:51:24.280 to be afraid that there's like a giant crackdown coming. 3:51:24.320 --> 3:51:26.360 They've been doing this the whole time, and so far 3:51:26.480 --> 3:51:30.840 it really hasn't like it sucks, but it hasn't stopped Minneapolis, 3:51:30.880 --> 3:51:31.800 hasn'toped Chicago. 3:51:32.200 --> 3:51:35.360 No, they're trying to intimidate you stop doing this like 3:51:35.480 --> 3:51:38.600 that is the point of this agent walking by and 3:51:38.720 --> 3:51:40.880 joking about how you're now a domestic terrorist. 3:51:41.000 --> 3:51:42.600 Yeah, because that's not actually real. 3:51:42.680 --> 3:51:45.680 That is a way to scare you into not showing up, 3:51:45.800 --> 3:51:48.000 based on the u based on the idea that if 3:51:48.040 --> 3:51:49.880 you do, they'll take a picture of you, and now 3:51:49.920 --> 3:51:52.280 you get added to this domestic terrorist database. 3:51:52.440 --> 3:51:52.640 Yeah. 3:51:53.000 --> 3:51:56.240 Is it possible that they're making like some kind of 3:51:56.320 --> 3:51:59.680 catalog of pictures of protesters that they can maybe use 3:52:00.080 --> 3:52:02.880 for reference in the future to build a case against someone, 3:52:03.160 --> 3:52:04.680 or if they arrest someone, they can look to see 3:52:04.760 --> 3:52:07.800 if they've been at previous protests. No, that's not impossible. 3:52:07.920 --> 3:52:10.800 That is something that they've been doing for quite a while. 3:52:10.840 --> 3:52:13.200 It is sudden that anti fascists to do against like 3:52:13.280 --> 3:52:15.160 Proud Boys back in the day, where you just document 3:52:15.240 --> 3:52:17.600 a lot of people at a protest and then maybe 3:52:17.680 --> 3:52:20.800 eventually the information will become useful. Right, that is not 3:52:21.000 --> 3:52:24.440 like surprising, but like I've seen some pretty outrageous claims 3:52:24.480 --> 3:52:28.160 going viral that, like after Preddy had this encounter with 3:52:28.280 --> 3:52:30.960 law enforcement previously where they broke his rib that Preddy 3:52:31.080 --> 3:52:34.440 was then specifically targeted in the following weeks, Like. 3:52:34.480 --> 3:52:35.520 There is no information for that. 3:52:35.680 --> 3:52:37.120 Yeah, we have no evidence to prove that. 3:52:37.280 --> 3:52:40.400 There's no information that this database led to him being 3:52:40.440 --> 3:52:43.360 intentionally targeted by federal agents on the ground that is 3:52:43.480 --> 3:52:44.760 that is just speculation at this point. 3:52:44.840 --> 3:52:46.840 Yeah, there's no evidence of that, and there's no evidence 3:52:46.880 --> 3:52:49.560 that this is like a new kind of campaigner repression. 3:52:49.760 --> 3:52:52.000 And I want to be very clear about this. If 3:52:52.080 --> 3:52:54.880 you are spreading this as a you need to be 3:52:55.000 --> 3:52:57.600 afraid now because there's a new thing that's happening. You 3:52:57.720 --> 3:53:01.040 are doing their job. You are spreading the fear that 3:53:01.200 --> 3:53:03.280 this is an intimidation that this is designed to do, 3:53:03.480 --> 3:53:04.600 so please stop doing this. 3:53:05.360 --> 3:53:08.200 Yeah, I think, like I understand that for a lot 3:53:08.240 --> 3:53:12.520 of people, any form of activism is very new and 3:53:12.960 --> 3:53:16.400 everything seems scary, But this is this is one of 3:53:16.440 --> 3:53:19.400 those times when you need to check what you're doing because, 3:53:19.560 --> 3:53:21.800 as Mia said, right, this has. The legal term is 3:53:21.840 --> 3:53:25.480 a chilling effect. Right, like the government generally courts a fan. 3:53:25.560 --> 3:53:27.800 The government should do not should not do things that 3:53:27.960 --> 3:53:30.720 have a chilling effect on First Amendment protected to speak. 3:53:30.800 --> 3:53:34.120 That's absolutely what the government is trying to do. You 3:53:34.360 --> 3:53:36.280 don't have to help them or not the government, but 3:53:36.320 --> 3:53:39.280 that particular agent, I should say, acting at work saying 3:53:39.280 --> 3:53:41.160 he's building a database, right, that is what that is 3:53:41.200 --> 3:53:42.960 trying to do is to have a chilling effect. 3:53:43.000 --> 3:53:44.880 Well, I mean I would argue the government's also doing 3:53:44.960 --> 3:53:48.680 this fear, you know, calling every legal observer domestic terrorists. 3:53:48.720 --> 3:53:50.880 Right, yeah, I guess, yeah, fair enough. 3:53:51.600 --> 3:53:54.760 So we should mention this just so we don't leave 3:53:54.760 --> 3:53:56.360 it out. Although we don't have a ton to say 3:53:56.400 --> 3:53:59.440 at the moment about this, but like the day before 3:53:59.560 --> 3:54:02.520 we were corded this on the twenty seventh of January, 3:54:02.600 --> 3:54:05.400 I believe elean Omar was doing a town hall in 3:54:05.520 --> 3:54:11.360 Minneapolis where she is a representative, and was assaulted by 3:54:11.480 --> 3:54:14.360 a man named Anthony James kasmir Zak, who was a 3:54:14.400 --> 3:54:16.880 fifty five year old. He was carrying what looked like 3:54:17.440 --> 3:54:20.320 a syringe but without a needle, just like a like 3:54:20.400 --> 3:54:22.440 a large syringe, like the kind you'd used to like 3:54:22.560 --> 3:54:26.720 give medicine to an animal or something. Yeah, an irrigation syringe, right, 3:54:26.880 --> 3:54:29.680 and it was filled with some kind of off brownish 3:54:29.880 --> 3:54:32.600 yellow liquid. I don't think we know what it was. 3:54:32.800 --> 3:54:36.400 It apparently was foul smelling, obviously, and he ran up 3:54:36.480 --> 3:54:39.680 screaming you must resign, and sprayed some of it at her. 3:54:39.840 --> 3:54:42.160 I don't know how much God on her. He was 3:54:42.240 --> 3:54:45.720 tackled very quickly by a security guard. Omar seemed to 3:54:45.760 --> 3:54:47.720 be squaring up and ready to fight him, which was 3:54:47.960 --> 3:54:51.600 you know, expected, given like the kind of shit she's 3:54:51.600 --> 3:54:53.520 had to deal with, right, she had to be a 3:54:53.640 --> 3:54:56.520 very tough person. She doesn't seem to be injured. I 3:54:56.560 --> 3:54:59.600 don't think there's any evidence that the liquid or whatever 3:55:00.160 --> 3:55:03.320 was something that caused or is likely to cause health issues, 3:55:03.560 --> 3:55:05.240 which I mean doesn't make it not assault. 3:55:05.320 --> 3:55:05.360 It. 3:55:05.720 --> 3:55:08.840 I don't think she's currently in any times, you're thankfully. Yeah, 3:55:09.440 --> 3:55:13.520 there's been a chorus of denunciations about the attack on 3:55:13.720 --> 3:55:16.680 her from a bunch of other elected leaders. I know 3:55:16.800 --> 3:55:19.000 people have said that like it's been ignored, but at 3:55:19.080 --> 3:55:21.200 least it hasn't been from other people in the house, right. 3:55:21.240 --> 3:55:23.440 There's a lot of folks, including some Republicans who have 3:55:23.480 --> 3:55:25.800 made comments on it, just because none of them like 3:55:25.880 --> 3:55:30.240 the thought of having shit sprayed on them. I think, yeah, yeah, Anyway, 3:55:30.280 --> 3:55:32.760 we don't know a ton about this guy and why 3:55:32.800 --> 3:55:36.160 he did otherwise, other than that he presumably hated illin Omar, right, 3:55:36.360 --> 3:55:40.600 and that he wanted to get her to quit her 3:55:40.680 --> 3:55:43.840 job or otherwise harmor in some way. We don't really 3:55:43.880 --> 3:55:47.240 know much about this guy. There's some people talking about 3:55:47.240 --> 3:55:49.800 the fact that his kids seem to be on the left. Well, 3:55:49.800 --> 3:55:51.520 he's clearly not. As if that's weird. 3:55:52.240 --> 3:55:52.520 It's not. 3:55:53.040 --> 3:55:55.200 If your dad is the kind of crazy asshole who 3:55:55.240 --> 3:55:58.840 will spray poison on elein Omar hit a town hall, 3:55:59.280 --> 3:56:01.680 I can see how maybe you become the opposite of him. 3:56:02.640 --> 3:56:04.160 But yeah, that's about all we know at the moment. 3:56:04.320 --> 3:56:06.120 I do want to mention Trump's comment on it, where 3:56:06.200 --> 3:56:08.960 ABC News asked Trump if you'd seen the video, and 3:56:09.920 --> 3:56:13.600 oh yeah, Trump said, quote, No, I don't think about her. 3:56:13.680 --> 3:56:16.200 I think she's a fraud. I really don't think about that. 3:56:16.360 --> 3:56:18.680 She probably had sprayed herself knowing her. 3:56:18.960 --> 3:56:21.040 Yeah you said that like a guy who thinks about 3:56:21.200 --> 3:56:21.960 her constantly. 3:56:23.040 --> 3:56:27.840 Hey, yeah, yeah, really hideous stuff. Yeah. 3:56:28.600 --> 3:56:30.880 Producer Sophie here with a quick pickup as we did 3:56:30.960 --> 3:56:34.560 not have this information at the time of recording. This 3:56:34.760 --> 3:56:39.680 is as of January twenty twenty six, per AP news quote. 3:56:40.280 --> 3:56:42.680 The Justice Department has charged a man who scorted apple 3:56:42.760 --> 3:56:46.600 sided vinegar on Democratic Representative Omar at an event in Minneapolis. 3:56:46.720 --> 3:56:50.640 According to court papers made public Thursday, The man arrested 3:56:50.800 --> 3:56:54.760 for Tuesday's attack, Anthony kasmar Zak, faces a charge of 3:56:55.000 --> 3:56:58.640 forcibly assaulting, opposing, impeding, and intimidating Omar. According to a 3:56:58.680 --> 3:57:02.920 complaint filed in federal authorities determined that the substance was 3:57:03.000 --> 3:57:06.280 water and apple cider vinegar. According to an Affidavid, after 3:57:06.360 --> 3:57:09.320 kasmar Zak sprayed Omar with the liquid, he appeared to say, 3:57:09.760 --> 3:57:15.000 quote she's not resigning, You're splitting Minnesota's apart end quote, 3:57:15.200 --> 3:57:18.760 the affi David says. Authorities also say that kasmar Zak 3:57:18.920 --> 3:57:22.760 told a close associate several years ago that quote somebody 3:57:22.840 --> 3:57:27.880 should kill end quote Omar quote. Documents say kasmar Zak 3:57:27.920 --> 3:57:31.480 appeared briefly in federal court Thursday afternoon. His attorney told 3:57:31.560 --> 3:57:34.400 the judge her client was unmedicated at the time of 3:57:34.440 --> 3:57:37.520 the incident and has not had access to medications he 3:57:37.680 --> 3:57:40.640 needs to treat Parkinson's disease in other serious conditions he 3:57:40.680 --> 3:57:45.360 suffers from US Magistrate Judge Dulce Foster ordered that Kazmarzak 3:57:45.440 --> 3:57:48.520 remain in custody and told officials he needs to see 3:57:48.520 --> 3:57:51.960 a nurse when he's transferred to the Sherburne County Jail. 3:57:52.320 --> 3:57:55.280 End quote again, that is via AP News. 3:57:55.840 --> 3:57:58.040 So I want to very briefly update people on Rajava. 3:57:58.280 --> 3:57:59.800 The bfke bassing for a whole episode. 3:58:00.080 --> 3:58:00.680 We will do one. 3:58:00.760 --> 3:58:01.760 I've been in Minneapolis. 3:58:01.840 --> 3:58:03.360 It's kind of a lot going on right now. 3:58:04.120 --> 3:58:06.280 Yeah and me you may have noticed, but this is 3:58:06.320 --> 3:58:09.480 all very important, right Like, horrible things are happening. So 3:58:10.240 --> 3:58:14.040 the STG that's a Syrian Transitional Government Ahmed al Shara 3:58:14.400 --> 3:58:18.960 Jiulani government right and the SDF Syrian Democratic Forces which 3:58:19.000 --> 3:58:23.040 includes the YPG and YPG the armed forces that defend Rashava, 3:58:23.600 --> 3:58:27.480 have signed a fifteen day extension to their ceasefire. But 3:58:27.640 --> 3:58:31.080 both sides are accusing the other of widespread violations of 3:58:31.160 --> 3:58:33.960 the ceasefire. Both of them are right, like, I've seen 3:58:34.000 --> 3:58:39.160 a lot of videos of ceasefire violations. Ceasefire was internationally mediated, 3:58:39.280 --> 3:58:42.320 likely by the US, and likely because of huge concerns 3:58:42.680 --> 3:58:46.280 around the escape of Islamic state prisoners. There was an 3:58:46.320 --> 3:58:49.480 attempted is suicide bombing in a ruck yesterday as we 3:58:49.560 --> 3:58:52.680 record this. That's the first time I can remember one 3:58:52.680 --> 3:58:56.640 of those happening in a while that the person was apprehended. 3:58:57.120 --> 3:59:02.320 But the US, I know, has been transferring detainees from 3:59:02.360 --> 3:59:05.840 the prisoner Hesseka and they're transferring them to US facilities 3:59:05.880 --> 3:59:09.080 in Iraq. Right, it doesn't the prince of the detainees 3:59:09.160 --> 3:59:10.640 is not the thing that is going to make the 3:59:10.760 --> 3:59:13.880 US support their allies in Rosjavo or their former allies 3:59:13.880 --> 3:59:16.080 in their SDF for I guess I should say now 3:59:16.120 --> 3:59:18.960 that the US, once again it is not going to 3:59:18.960 --> 3:59:21.600 be a good friend to the Kurdish people. Trump has 3:59:21.760 --> 3:59:26.520 also truthed that Iraq should not appoint Nurial Malachi as 3:59:26.560 --> 3:59:30.000 its next prime minister. In his Truth, he said quote, 3:59:30.320 --> 3:59:32.760 I am hearing that the great country of Iraq might 3:59:32.880 --> 3:59:36.200 make a very bad choice by reinstalling Nuriel Malachi as 3:59:36.240 --> 3:59:39.120 prime minister. Last time Malachi was in power, the country 3:59:39.160 --> 3:59:42.120 descended into poverty and total chaos. That should not be 3:59:42.160 --> 3:59:45.440 allowed to happen again because of his insane policies and ideologies. 3:59:45.520 --> 3:59:47.840 If elected, the United States of America will no longer 3:59:47.920 --> 3:59:50.520 help Iraq. And if we are not there to help, 3:59:50.840 --> 3:59:54.720 Iraq has zero chance of success, prosperity, or freedom. Make 3:59:54.840 --> 3:59:56.960 Iraq great again, Jesus Chris. 3:59:58.240 --> 4:00:02.760 First off, I mean, get us suck like he's a 4:00:02.840 --> 4:00:03.600 really bad guy. 4:00:04.160 --> 4:00:06.960 Yeah, this is not a like yay Malachi post, but 4:00:07.320 --> 4:00:08.800 this ain't the way to go about doing that. 4:00:09.200 --> 4:00:11.440 No, I mean just the whole we will cut all 4:00:12.080 --> 4:00:15.440 ties and support to Iraq thing. When everything happening there 4:00:15.520 --> 4:00:17.440 is still downstream of us fucking with them. 4:00:17.640 --> 4:00:19.120 Yeah, we did this. 4:00:20.280 --> 4:00:22.880 We spent twenty fucking years killing people in a ruck. 4:00:23.040 --> 4:00:25.360 Like you don't just get to be like, oh yeah, 4:00:25.840 --> 4:00:27.920 and like the idea that we were doing regime change, 4:00:28.000 --> 4:00:30.080 but when the regime isn't and the one that we 4:00:30.320 --> 4:00:32.000 like that people are liked, and I was like, we're 4:00:32.040 --> 4:00:34.760 doing regime change again, Like obviously the whole thing was 4:00:34.800 --> 4:00:35.720 a fraud and a lie. 4:00:36.000 --> 4:00:37.840 Yes, yeah, still is. 4:00:38.360 --> 4:00:42.240 Yeah, very concerned for my friends. All the parts of 4:00:42.320 --> 4:00:46.000 Curtis dannergy. The peace process between the PKK and Turkeys 4:00:46.160 --> 4:00:50.040 is falling apart, and state violence in Iran is still 4:00:50.480 --> 4:00:54.920 absolutely repugnant scale. Right, Yeah, a pretty tough time in 4:00:54.960 --> 4:00:56.760 that part of the world. I thinking of them. 4:00:57.400 --> 4:01:00.120 So finally, I want to give a brief update on 4:01:00.200 --> 4:01:03.520 my story from last week about this attempt to end 4:01:03.640 --> 4:01:07.520 FED independence and this attempt to sort of do an 4:01:07.560 --> 4:01:12.600 investigation into the chairman of the Federal Reserve. So earlier today, 4:01:12.680 --> 4:01:16.040 as we were recording this, we got the result of 4:01:16.480 --> 4:01:18.760 the Fed's vote about what they were going to do 4:01:18.840 --> 4:01:21.880 with interest rates. There's a whole episode about that. Go 4:01:22.000 --> 4:01:23.040 listen to that if you want air. 4:01:22.960 --> 4:01:23.560 Send what this is. 4:01:23.720 --> 4:01:27.920 But the FED, instead of cutting rates as the administration 4:01:28.000 --> 4:01:30.160 has wanted, has decided to hold interest rates at the 4:01:30.200 --> 4:01:32.640 same level, which was what was expected out of the 4:01:32.680 --> 4:01:37.120 Federal Reserve before Trump started putting even more pressure on them. However, 4:01:37.920 --> 4:01:40.680 we did not get any updates from anyone at the 4:01:40.720 --> 4:01:45.600 Federal Reserve about this Department of Justice investigation or any 4:01:45.640 --> 4:01:48.840 of the Trump pressure that's been being put on the 4:01:48.880 --> 4:01:53.440 Federal Reserve. So we'll keep you updated as the situation evolves, 4:01:53.480 --> 4:01:56.400 but all we got was a very normal interest rates 4:01:56.440 --> 4:01:58.320 are being held at the same level. 4:01:58.960 --> 4:02:01.560 We will include our list of mutual aid fundraisers for 4:02:01.640 --> 4:02:04.280 Minneapolis again in the show notes for this episode. 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