1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Welcome back 5 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: to the show. My name is Matt, my name is Noel. 6 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: They call me Ben. We are joined today with our 7 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: super producer role brilliante. Most importantly, you are you. You 8 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: are here and that makes this stuff they don't want 9 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: you to know. Quick question at the top of the show. 10 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: Have you all ever had to make an escape? And 11 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:47,639 Speaker 1: it could be an escape from a party don't want 12 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: to be at, or family function, h an escape from 13 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: a social obligation, and escape from a country unsuccessfull? They 14 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: participated in an escape room did not get out? In 15 00:00:57,120 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: me a lot of time. It was quite a letdown. 16 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: Did you tortured? No? I blame one particular team member 17 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 1: who shall go nameless, who had the confidence of a 18 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: general and the intelligence of something much less than a general. 19 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: And to be clear, I've heard this story and you 20 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: were not talking about yourself. Okay, it's a different what 21 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: about you met? I was once at an extended in 22 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: laws house, uh far away and one of the persons 23 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: there was um acting as a bit of a bully, 24 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:36,400 Speaker 1: and and then it escalated and escalated throughout the course 25 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 1: of an evening. And uh perhaps, and I packed up 26 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 1: the things that I had unpacked with my wife and 27 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: we got the heck out of there. Good. Yeah, good 28 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: forget those people. It wasn't that crazy in hindsight, but 29 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: I was certainly uncomfortable in the moment. So, Ben, you're 30 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: always talking about getting kicked out of countries if you 31 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: ever had to make a ad crazy getaway. Yes, I've 32 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: had several close calls over my time. UM one in 33 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 1: Germany two and Guatemala, one in Canada. Um. Yeah, number 34 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: once I get to say, I had to get out 35 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: of a town in Guatemala after dark. It was it 36 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: was in the who was in the jungle? It was strange. 37 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: I was essentially racing to catch the last charter bus 38 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: that would pass through that area of the of the 39 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 1: country before dawn. So the next one we come at dawn. 40 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:42,079 Speaker 1: But I was not in a place where you would 41 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 1: have want to stay overnight, gotcha using those diplomatic privileges wink? No, 42 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:54,799 Speaker 1: oh well sure, sure. Anyway, I made it here right here, 43 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: we go. Today's episode does have something in common thematically 44 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 1: with this series of escapes. We're talking about whether an 45 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: escape room, whether a weird living situation, whether you are 46 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: whether you are racing the darkness or the dawn. Today 47 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: we are exploring a strange secret story. It's one that begins, 48 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 1: we say, right around the close of World War Two, 49 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:25,639 Speaker 1: but that's not entirely accurate. This story begins before the 50 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: end of the actual war. It just the rubber hits 51 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 1: the road at the end. Uh wait, wait war? What 52 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: what war are we talking about? Here are the facts. 53 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: That's why. It's the Great War, the one that is 54 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: taught to children across the world. No matter where you 55 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: grow up, you will learn about this because it was 56 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: such an important um few I mean, really what didn't 57 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: even last that long, but it was one of the 58 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 1: most important things that ever occurred in the history of humanity. 59 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: It was the whole world and war with itself to 60 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: each other. The second time it's and it took place 61 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: from n and nineteen forty five. World War two, of course, 62 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: is what we're speaking of. If you didn't get it 63 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: through those means, um But here's the thing. I mean, 64 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: that timeline isn't perfect, right, because there are machinations that 65 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: occur prior to that. There are there's a lot of 66 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: cleaning up essentially that occurs afterwards. There's a lot of 67 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: setting up to socio economic positions that are that are 68 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: changed in an unsustainable way in the thirties. Also, there 69 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:31,359 Speaker 1: are a lot of banks evolved. I'm gonna say, I 70 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 1: know it's a different episode, but it would be naive 71 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: to pretend that was not the case. Certainly, and at 72 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: least one major religious organization, yes, at least one. We 73 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 1: know today that the opponents in the war were collectively 74 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: primarily referred to as the Axis Powers and the Allied Powers. 75 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 1: This is still the deadliest conflict and recorded history, Matt. 76 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 1: I like what you pointed out about how how short 77 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: that timeline actually seems thirty nine to already five, especially 78 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: when the news just broke this year this month. Actually 79 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: that we're recording their U S soldiers in Afghanistan who 80 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 1: were born after the current US conflict in that part 81 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: of the world began. There are people have grown up 82 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:20,600 Speaker 1: only knowing that war, yeah, or at least as the 83 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:25,359 Speaker 1: major defining war in their lifetime or in their their worlds. 84 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: Right yeah, that is that's very odd. It's still not 85 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: the deadliest war and recorded history. That dubious honor goes 86 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 1: to World War Two. As you said, man, most children 87 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: learn about this war at some point in school. Exactly 88 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: what we learned depends on where we are raised. We 89 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: did an earlier episode on an episode or a video 90 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: I cannot remember. On the insidious ways that textbooks guide 91 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:55,919 Speaker 1: the reasoning of children, like if you read. If you 92 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: read a textbook about World War two that's published by 93 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 1: a textbook company in Japan, it's going to be very 94 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:07,159 Speaker 1: different from a book about World War two for children 95 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: that's published in Russia, or in China, or of course 96 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: in the US. But regardless of their disagreements, all these 97 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 1: textbooks agree on one central point, including the German textbooks, 98 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: mind you, and that is this, the Nazi Party of 99 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: Germany were the bad guys. They were the ones every 100 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: textbook will tell you seeking global dominance, responsible for genocide, 101 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 1: human experimentation, all these other atrocities, a seemingly unending list 102 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 1: of war crimes. Nazi officials foresaw the close of the 103 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 1: war and the fall of the Access Powers before it 104 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 1: actually happened. They could see the writing on the wall, 105 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, even they knew that they 106 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: got caught, they would have to answer for these crimes 107 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: and be tried. You know, as you you kind of 108 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:54,919 Speaker 1: listed off a few of those things that have been 109 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 1: these aren't things that are you're going to get a 110 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: lenient sentence for. Were they were aware that the whole 111 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 1: world essentially would be holding them accountable for these things, 112 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: and they would be either in jail or put in 113 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: front of a firing squad or hanged at the end 114 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: would would come either either very swiftly or it would 115 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: be an elongated process for perhaps decades. Yeah, the human 116 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: species is not perfect. But what, thankfully, one thing billions 117 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: of people can agree on is that if you try 118 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: to kill billions of other people, something bad should happen 119 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: to you. Yes, you know, so go us, go team. 120 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: So understandably, these folks looked to plan their escape. Yeah, 121 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: anyway they possibly could get out of the countries where 122 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: they were, because we're not just talking about Nazis in Germany. 123 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: There were there were people in countries you know, across 124 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: that area in Europe, in uh you know, and again 125 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: if you look to Japan, people were trying to escape 126 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: justice yeah, yeah, and of Italian fascists, members of the 127 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: that aspect of the Axis powers. Well, even on some 128 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: of the Allied powers, there were there were numerous Soviet 129 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: higher echelon soldiers and military personnel that we're trying to 130 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: get out because they feared what would occur after the war. Yeah, yeah, 131 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: can you imagine. After the close of the war, Nazi 132 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: officials who were captured were tried in court during a 133 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 1: series of military tribunals known as the Nuremberg Trials. The 134 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: Nuremberg Trials are incredibly important right for human history. They're 135 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:43,559 Speaker 1: often depicted in works of fiction, in films and so on, 136 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: and they set some crucial precedents. The first tribunal began 137 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: on November twenty nine, and it was aiming to try 138 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 1: twenty four prominent members of Germany's Nazi Party. Some of 139 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: these people were tried in absentia because they had not 140 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 1: been apprehended. That is that like, what an awkward proceeding 141 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: that must have been. It's weird. People really, people are 142 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: into it. I think they they had to set the 143 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: precedent and then also if they find the person guilty 144 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 1: and absentia, the law still apply. So anytime that person 145 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: is found. Who knows, maybe the sentence can be carried 146 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: out immediately. Probably not something that medieval, but similar who 147 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: do they yell at and shame in the room though 148 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: they're like a proxy person that stands in for the 149 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: absent party. I don't know, because even when that one 150 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 1: pope dragged the carcass of his predecessor out and had 151 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: a trial for the dead guy, they at least needed 152 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 1: that props. In any in any court, at least within 153 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: the US, if you don't have somebody to stand trial, 154 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 1: then there is no trial. So but in this it 155 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: really is. It was just a matter of needing to 156 00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: to state, essentially, this person is guilty of these things. 157 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: It is known now throughout the world that this guy 158 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: did this. And these were the big fish of the party, 159 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,559 Speaker 1: not all of them, but many of them were the drivers, 160 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: the builders, the architects of the horrible socioeconomic engine that 161 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: Germany had created, you know, the heads of economic policy, 162 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: military of course, the people who were in charge of 163 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: the concentration camps. The surviving members of the party worked 164 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 1: ardently to avoid justice. And it's interesting that today we're 165 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: talking about escape because the stakes were so high that 166 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: some people who could not well, I guess the best 167 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: way to say it is, some people found only one 168 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: route for physical escape, and they took it without hesitation. 169 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: And of course you're talking about both Joseph Gerbel's as 170 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: well as Adolf Hitler. And if you want to learn 171 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: more about these guys, uh, they chose to take their 172 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 1: own lives. Uh. We did an episode called What Happened 173 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: to Hitler a little while ago and gosh, I think 174 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: it's twenty seventeen maybe, but you can learn about all 175 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: of the theories surrounding Hitler's death. Whether he actually died then, um, 176 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 1: he's probably dead now either way, yes, But listen to 177 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: that episode if you want to learn more about that, 178 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: figure out what what people found, what people learned about 179 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: the skull. And then you had folks like Heinrich Mueller 180 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: who just kind of vanished like Kaiser SoSE style. So 181 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: what happened? Where did they go? We'll tell you after 182 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: a word from our sponsors. Here's where it gets crazy. 183 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: So this was a rumor, this was a whisper for 184 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: a long time. What happened to these Nazis? Says? You said, Noel, 185 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: what happened to these ones who disappeared Kaiser SoSE style. Oh. 186 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: For the decades since World War Two, declassified files have 187 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,680 Speaker 1: proven the Nazis had an ongoing conspiracy, or it's better 188 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: to say a nest of conspiracies. Uh, this cavalcade of 189 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 1: secret plans created to evade the consequences of their actions. 190 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: This is not well, technically speaking, this is not a 191 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: conspiracy theory because it's not a theory. It really actually happened. 192 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: It is a genuine conspiracy, and it's it's really multily 193 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: like you said, multiple conspiracies, multiple groups, and multiple plans, 194 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: and a lot of them were successful. Yeah, and there's 195 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: overlap and some worked better than others. Right, And to 196 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: a degree, this conspiracy, this let's call it an uber 197 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 1: conspiracy since we're using German. Right. Uh, This uber conspiracy 198 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 1: or metic conspiracy remains unsolved. It all goes back to 199 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 1: something called ratlines. What is a rat line, you may ask, Well, today, 200 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 1: the various escape networks, tunnels, um infrastructure used for this 201 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: purpose by the Nazis and fascists at the close of 202 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: the war are all collectively referred to as ratlines, and 203 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: they were essentially plans for individuals and groups to vanish 204 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: themselves disappear themselves, leaving Germany for safe havens like South 205 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: America and also the US shout out to Operation paper Clip. Yeah, 206 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: but yes, they also want other places right now like Switzerland. Yeah. 207 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: And there are even a couple of rumors of areas 208 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: in the Middle East where people were secreted away to Syria. Yeah. 209 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: But just to jump back to paper Clip again, we've 210 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 1: done an episode on this. This was the specifically the 211 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: United States version of a ratline to get Nazi scientists 212 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: generally scientists, but there are a few other characters in 213 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: there to the United States for our own gain, because 214 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: the minds behind some of the terrible things that occurred 215 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: were I don't know how better to put this there, 216 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: they were some innovative people, uh that were doing things 217 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 1: that were complicated, and the United States saw strategic advantage 218 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: to using those minds for their own advantage. That just 219 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: it's absolutely it's it's absolutely brutal and ruthless and Mackavellian 220 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 1: and true Nazi scientists are the reason that human beings 221 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: ended up on the Moon if you think about it, 222 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: and then they're one of the reasons, right because Operation 223 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: paper Clip focused on taking thousands of German scientists and engineers, 224 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: particularly Werner von Braun, Right, that's the big name, right, 225 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: who had done so much work on V two rockets. 226 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: If you, if you think about it, that that expertise 227 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: that the US took does lead, maybe not directly, but 228 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: does lead to the rocket technology that the US later 229 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: uses to send people into space. In the least, it 230 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: helped tremendously at the very least. And I know it 231 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: can be seen as somewhat of a hot take to 232 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: again say the Nazis helped the US land people on 233 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: the Moon. It sounds weird when you, you know, boil 234 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: it down to one sentence maybe former Nazis. Yeah, well, 235 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: you know what, that's way more diplomatic, former Nazis. But again, 236 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: I feel I feel weird even saying that. It feels 237 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: like I'm downplaying it. Well, we know that some members, 238 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: especially in the scientific community, some members of the Nazi 239 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: Party were maybe members in name because of internal political pressure, 240 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: and they had to do it too. They say they 241 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: had to do it to survive. We also will never 242 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: know the true story. And you you you read a 243 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: really great quote on a recent episode of Ridiculous History 244 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 1: where you said, nobody really cares about anyone's motivation for 245 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: being a Nazi. Whether you did it on purpose or 246 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: you know, we're kind of strong armed into it, you're 247 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: still called a Nazi at the end of there's no 248 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: like former Nazi are like Nazi in name only, really right, Well, 249 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: the things you did, the physical acts, the the ideas 250 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 1: that you created that you know, brought into this world 251 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: were for a means that was nefarious and did terrible 252 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: things other people. Whether it was a rocket that was 253 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: being shot to blow up soldiers from you know, some 254 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: other land, whether it's a punch card machine like IBM. Yeah, wow, Fanta, No, 255 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 1: I'm just kidding, uh this, I mean, this is an 256 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 1: excellent point. Right, So, the recent Operation paper Clip happens 257 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: without going into the full episode we have on it 258 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: that you can hear whenever you wish available wherever you 259 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: get your favorite shows. The primary reason Operation paper Clip 260 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: exists is because the US boffins and eggheads and military 261 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: leaders do a cost benefit analysis, and before the end 262 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 1: of World War Two, the beginnings of the Cold War 263 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: are already it's nascent, it's it's kicking into gear, and 264 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: the Soviet side and the US and the West are 265 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: already planning on how to become the global hegemon. Right, 266 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: so Operation Paperclip was this cost benefit analysis where U 267 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: s scientists and what did I say, boffins and eggheads 268 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: and military leaders. They know that these these ideological orphans, right, 269 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 1: these brilliant evil people because again Likenel said they are Nazis, 270 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: knew that they would be hunted around the world. But 271 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 1: more importantly, the US knew that if they did not 272 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 1: spirit these folks away, the Soviet machine would get them. 273 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 1: And the Soviet government did apprehend German scientists. I think 274 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: the US only got around sixty hundred or so, but yeah, yeah, right, 275 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 1: just sixteen hundred of those uh top men. To quote 276 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 1: Indiana Jones, right, doesn't he say that the end of 277 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:17,360 Speaker 1: Raiders of Lost artis Yeah, so we're going I'm going 278 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:19,880 Speaker 1: a little in the weeds on Operation paper Clip. It's 279 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 1: just very important for everyone living in the US to 280 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 1: know that when you hear about ratlines, when you hear 281 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: about countries like Argentina, healthy Brazil, Yeah, yeah, yeah, when 282 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 1: you hear about these countries helping war criminals disappear, we 283 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 1: have to realize this is very much a glass house. 284 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: Our country did the same thing, you know what I mean, 285 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 1: and did it with even um less of a clandestine attitude, 286 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 1: more of an official stance. But okay, so what is 287 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 1: what is a rat line? Let's say, now we're not 288 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: going to pick on super producer Lowell because it's his 289 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 1: first day with us. So so let's let's just pick 290 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 1: uh someone no one can hate and say they're Nazi. Uh? Okay, 291 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,399 Speaker 1: So what if, like Tom Hanks is you know, he 292 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: got caught up, he's a Nazi and he needs to 293 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,439 Speaker 1: escape Germany it's the fall of World War two? What 294 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: kind of rat line would he use? What would he? 295 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 1: How would he? How does it work? Well? So there 296 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: are several routes that could be taken, like as far 297 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 1: as locations that people are secretive through, um, But we 298 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: kind of have to talk about the functionality of it, right, You, 299 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: The first thing you need to do to get past 300 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 1: a border, right, if you're gonna do that, is to 301 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 1: have a false identity. And generally that's how these things began, 302 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: where you would have someone somewhere that could get you 303 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,360 Speaker 1: false papers and prove that you're someone else as you're 304 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: leaving and as you are attempting to leave somewhere like 305 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: Germany or Austria. Wherever you're heading out of you would 306 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:02,679 Speaker 1: generally end up head from Germany to Spain and then 307 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,199 Speaker 1: eventually over to Argentina. That's one way. They're one of 308 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 1: the major ways. The other major way is from Germany 309 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: to Italy, Genoa in particular. Um, and that's also that's 310 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:15,880 Speaker 1: going through Rome. And by the way, when you're going 311 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,679 Speaker 1: through Rome, you know who's helping out I guess no, 312 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: the old Vatican, because again that is a an arm 313 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 1: that reaches very far and it has way too many fingers. 314 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: You'd think it only had five fingers, but that arm 315 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:36,959 Speaker 1: just has like fingers. You know, I'm not gonna I 316 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 1: am not um a theologian who would say it does 317 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 1: seem somewhat off brand, somewhat un christ like to assist 318 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: mass murders and uh, to assist war criminals. But yeah, 319 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,360 Speaker 1: there's a there's a deeper connection there with the Vatican 320 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: and a lot of the happenings of World War two 321 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 1: that we were probably not going to fully get into today, 322 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: but you can look that up if you wish, um. 323 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: But anyway, they would also end up somewhere in South 324 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: America that that line that goes through Italy, and there 325 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: there's the for ratlines that depended on the help of 326 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:18,160 Speaker 1: the Vatican of the Catholic Church. South America makes sense, right, 327 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 1: because there is so much Catholic presence there, as well 328 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,880 Speaker 1: as the lack of extradition extradition treaties in a lot 329 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: of those places. And I do want to say, I 330 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 1: do want to say, when we're saying the Vatican or 331 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: we're saying the Catholic Church, we're not talking about people 332 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: who actually just practice Catholicism. No, no, no, We're talking 333 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 1: more about the political machine, yes, rather than the spiritual idea. 334 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: We do have etymology of ratline. It's a nautical term, 335 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: which I did not know because it's not ratline sounds 336 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: like something snarky that maybe someone in Western intelligence made up. 337 00:21:55,440 --> 00:22:00,159 Speaker 1: May I guess what it is before? I always in 338 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: my mind it's the small pathways that you'd have to 339 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,919 Speaker 1: get down on all fours essentially within a ship or 340 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 1: something to access some of the other parts of the 341 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 1: ship that, like the that are inaccessible. I I like, okay, 342 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:22,160 Speaker 1: I like where your heads at this. The original rat 343 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: line was a a sort of last resort passage. It 344 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 1: was it was a rope, these small lengths of cord 345 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 1: that ran between the big ropes, the proper ropes that 346 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: fixed the top of a mass to the sides of 347 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 1: a vessel. So rat lines you could use them because 348 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: they were horizontal as these kind of makeshift ladders. So 349 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: if you absolutely had to get someone up the mast, 350 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: they would crawl up this rat line. And there's a 351 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: terrible image here, so they crawl up right, these these 352 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:06,919 Speaker 1: makeshift little rope ladders. Scampering up the rat line was 353 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 1: something that desperate sailors would do when the ship was sinking. 354 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: And so the last thing to go under the surface 355 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: of the water is the mast, and so as the 356 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 1: water is rising, there running up the rat line. Okay, 357 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: checks out, makes sense. And that's the people who missed 358 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: out on the lifeboats. So that's that's interesting though, because 359 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: in that etymology, there may be a deeper, deeper puzzle, right, certainly, 360 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:40,960 Speaker 1: and and we'll get to that just that. We'll get 361 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: to that just a second. But these roots that you're describing, 362 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 1: the they start independently, right. The thing is, there's not 363 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: a great conspiracy. Yeah, you'll have you'll have basically a 364 00:23:55,359 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: leader in one area that generally has access to getting 365 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 1: those kinds of identity papers that we were kind of 366 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,680 Speaker 1: met briefly mentioning up up at the top there. Um, 367 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: if you can find one person like that who has 368 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: a few other associates and then you can link up 369 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: with that group, that then becomes essentially a cell right 370 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: of network, because then those are popping up everywhere. But 371 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily mean that that network is fully connected 372 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,199 Speaker 1: or communicating with each other. Um, you just have to 373 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 1: find your node. Yeah. Yeah, Like a lot of a 374 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: lot of dirty things that state actors and governments do 375 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 1: tend to be less an official decision of the government 376 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 1: as a whole and more like a faction of people 377 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: or community, a wheel within the wheel. Right. So, according 378 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: to historian Michael Phair, there were two alternate routes, the 379 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 1: ones you describe that, and they developed independently, but they 380 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: eventually merged, likely as the actors in these roots learned 381 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: about one another and they were able to help and 382 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: assist each other. And for years after the war, the 383 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: concept of these escape routes, these ratlines were, as we 384 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: said earlier, rumors, whispers, They were not officially confirmed. And 385 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: you can see why because at the close of World 386 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: War Two, when US soldiers have died, it would be 387 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: terrible and very it would be political suicide for members 388 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: of the US government to say, Okay, we won the war. 389 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: We're doing our best to bring justice to people, except 390 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,919 Speaker 1: for the scientists. You guys, there's one dude who's just 391 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,160 Speaker 1: great at rockets, and we have to have them. We're 392 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: sorry that your children have died, but we really want 393 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 1: to get to the moon. You can't say that stuff, 394 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Said, well, yeah, but I'm 395 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 1: not not not the president after War two. It's not 396 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: a great when you said, it's not a very authoritative 397 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: concept of guys here us out. Let's take a beat. 398 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: That's I mean, it's true though, if you think about 399 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 1: like who could who who on earth would go public 400 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: with that? So of course this was considered a wild 401 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 1: tinfoil hat conspiracy, you know what I mean? And people 402 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 1: who if someone told you in the nineteen sixties, hey, 403 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: I think the US government is abducting scientists, right, or 404 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 1: I think that the Pope is abducting Nazis and helping 405 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: them live a new life in Argentina, then if someone 406 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: told you that, you probably think, wow, this guy is 407 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 1: on LSD. And I've never liked someone tripping like that 408 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 1: that the plot of a movie that exists, like a 409 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 1: scientists are disappearing. They're all being spirited away into a 410 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: secret underground lab to do evil research under duress. Yeah, 411 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: it sounds like Watchman. It sounds like a whole bunch 412 00:26:53,600 --> 00:27:00,080 Speaker 1: of different things, very similar to right, because even today, 413 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: like even today, now that the stuff is confirmed, there 414 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 1: are historians and researchers, not necessarily fringe historians nor fringe researchers, 415 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: who believe that there's still something nefarious, that there there's 416 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: still more we need to learn about this. And one 417 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 1: of the largest controversies in the story of Nazi rat 418 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: lines is something called Odessa. What is that you ask? 419 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: Will tell you after a word from our sponsor. So, 420 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:45,880 Speaker 1: according to author Nazi hunter and Holocaust survivor Simon Wiesenthal, Odessa, 421 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 1: or the organization er Madigan U S. S Anga Horrigan, 422 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,919 Speaker 1: was founded in nineteen forty six, one year after the 423 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: close of the war. Um Odessa O D E S 424 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: s A is US code name for the operation um and, 425 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 1: according to Guy Walter, as a historian, U S Intelligence 426 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: first became aware of this term when members of the 427 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 1: s S and the CAZy Bensheim Auerbach internment camp used 428 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 1: it in conversation while attempting to gain special favors or 429 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: privileges from the Red Cross so they would be The 430 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: way this story goes is that these s S members 431 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:31,119 Speaker 1: would be trying to maybe get in communication with someone 432 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 1: outside of where they were being held, uh, you know, 433 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: get maybe some cash, maybe maybe even try to see 434 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: if they could get in touch with someone who could 435 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 1: get them a passport. And from what we could tell, 436 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: the conversation something like could you send this letter to 437 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 1: my friend blah blah blah and then say no, sorry, 438 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: I can't can't send letters and go, oh but it's 439 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 1: care of Odessa, don't don't exactly. So the first mention 440 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 1: of it from the Allied side shows up in this 441 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: memo from American intelligence and that's on July third, nineteen. 442 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: So what was Odessa like? What? We know that these 443 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: smaller roots are, these these more discreet organizations and ratlines. 444 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: We already know that they exist. What's the difference with 445 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: Simon Wisenthal's Odessa? This author Wisenthal he he believed that 446 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: Odessa was this big organization. Um I would kind of 447 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: liken it to something like al Qaeda similar to that, like, 448 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: it's one big thing that was functioning uh together, right, um. 449 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 1: And it was mostly made up of veterans of the 450 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: s S. And not only were these did this group 451 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 1: odessa uh. Not only did they get them out of 452 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: Germany initially with passports like we were talking about, but 453 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: they would also assist these people in setting up new 454 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 1: lives in new countries such as Argentina or Brazil or 455 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 1: wherever they were going to end up in South America 456 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 1: a couple of times in the Middle East in places 457 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: like Syria. Um. But there is one major issue with this. 458 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: Not everybody believes the same thing that Wisenthal believes, right. 459 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: That's the thing. Multiple other historians say odessa as as 460 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: he has described never actually existed. Again, That's that's strange. 461 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 1: No one is denying that the rat lines really did exist. 462 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 1: And yes, everyone knows that some Nazi officials did successfully 463 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: use these routes to escape, as well as some like 464 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 1: members of fascist parties and so on. But there's a 465 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: complication to this narrative. Years before Simon Wisnthal of Eistal 466 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: went public with his claims about Odessa. The government of 467 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: Austria had already been investigating the idea. It's sort of 468 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: it's it's like, um, if you're familiar with James Bond, 469 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: the World's Worst Superspy, it's sort of like the concept 470 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 1: of Specter. Remember this uh specter in the Bond films? 471 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 1: Is this global evil organization. Every spy franchise has one, 472 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: Yeah and gets smart. I think it was chaos. All 473 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: of them are acronyms that nobody remembers if they stand for, 474 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: but they're generally like this quasi governmental private organization right 475 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 1: the functions outside of any government or yeah, and just 476 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 1: has like a way cooler name than an actual government 477 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: entity would ever have. It's like Scorpio chaos, the octoquad, 478 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: the oct I would yeah, I would join the octo quad. 479 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: But why is it octo? And because the symbol is 480 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 1: like a weird eight and four together, it's like a rune. No, 481 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 1: it's it's four octas, it's a quad of octos. Okay, Okay, 482 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: so it's it's twenty four. Uh, send us your design 483 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 1: for octoquad and teach us how to do math. So 484 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: that's uh, but but it's true. Like so the argument then, 485 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 1: is that Odessa is a real life version of this 486 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 1: evil superspy bondesque thing. And also Simon Wisenthal in the 487 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: fall of World War Two, he did not get along 488 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 1: with West German military intelligence. They butted heads all the time. 489 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 1: That doesn't mean that his claims are untrue, and it doesn't, 490 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 1: you know, It's all it means is that there's a 491 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 1: wrinkle here. And it could people claiming that Odessa is 492 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: not real could be seeking to discredit the Wisenthal Weisonal organization. 493 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: Or it could also mean maybe in his um in 494 00:32:55,760 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 1: his search to find these escaped war criminals, that Eisenthal 495 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: started drawing connections in his own head where none existed, 496 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 1: You know what I mean absolutely, I mean we all 497 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 1: know that that's some of what gives conspiracy theory circles 498 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 1: a bad rap. Sometimes it's easy to do foregone conclusions 499 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 1: or sort of work backwards and like sort of have 500 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 1: a preconceived notion of what something is when it maybe 501 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 1: isn't actually that at all. Yeah, And again, the thing is, 502 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 1: so he was definitely right about the smuggling operations, the 503 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 1: rat lines, and we found proven ones, right, Yeah, we did. 504 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: We found a whole bunch of proven ones, and I 505 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 1: just want to add on to what you're saying. There 506 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 1: are guys, it feels like, and this is complete speculation 507 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: on my part that if Odessa really was a thing 508 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 1: and it was kept you know, secret enough to where 509 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 1: we are still in twenty nineteen post you know, postulating 510 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: whether whether or not it could be real. Um, it 511 00:33:56,040 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 1: feels like it could have had integration somehow with one 512 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 1: or more intelligence communities or agencies throughout the world. And 513 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 1: what what intrigues me is that the CIA was involved 514 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 1: in several of these, you know, secreting away of Nazis 515 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,320 Speaker 1: along with paper clip, you know what was occurring with 516 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,359 Speaker 1: paper Clip, but in other instances as well, to get 517 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: essentially s S officials and high level targets to then 518 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,919 Speaker 1: flip them and become informants, not only to find other 519 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:33,240 Speaker 1: ss you know, escape e s, but also to inform 520 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:38,879 Speaker 1: them on strategy and other things. So it's we're gonna, 521 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,319 Speaker 1: we're gonna continue down here because we we we know 522 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,439 Speaker 1: several of these uh names people that escaped and people 523 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 1: who were involved in things like this. But it just 524 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,720 Speaker 1: does make me feel like if Odessa was real, perhaps 525 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 1: there was a higher involvement with some other powerful intelligence agency, Right, 526 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:05,800 Speaker 1: some sort of institution capable of not only moving people 527 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:10,280 Speaker 1: across the world, but also cleaning up after themselves such 528 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 1: that they could they could sweep up the trace. Right. 529 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 1: We also, okay, we have to say it. We we 530 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: already we already mentioned this, but we have to say it. 531 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: The Vatican did it. The that's the institution that has 532 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,399 Speaker 1: the power and the reach to move people across I'm 533 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 1: not being an anti papist or whatever, and I'm not 534 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:39,359 Speaker 1: saying anything bad about the spiritual beliefs of anybody who 535 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: ascribes to Christianity or Catholicism. But the machine, the machine 536 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 1: that runs that organization on an earthly level, is more 537 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: than capable of of creating these sort of I know 538 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 1: it sounds very Dan Brown, right, but they're more than 539 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: capable of and that acting this sort of this sort 540 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 1: of process, and in a very real way. Uh, the 541 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: Catholic Church at this time was, you know, hand in 542 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:19,319 Speaker 1: hand with the ostensible governing powers of some developing countries. Right, 543 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 1: and in some cases not all, not all. And again 544 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,439 Speaker 1: it's very it's very easy, I think, to connect dots 545 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 1: where none exists. But it is true that in some cases, 546 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:35,200 Speaker 1: the Catholic Church had so much influence over a country 547 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,440 Speaker 1: or parts of a country that it was effectively the government. 548 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: Yeah wow, Okay, well I don't even notice say following that, 549 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:46,239 Speaker 1: I just want to let your soapbox for a while 550 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 1: because I'm sorry, thanks for coming to my ted talk. Well, no, 551 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 1: because we found we've found this to be true. I mean, 552 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:57,640 Speaker 1: if you look at somebody, um like uh dragon Ovic, 553 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 1: I don't know how to move precisely pronounce the name there, 554 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: but um, this is a person who would get false 555 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 1: identity papers, like we were kind of mentioning before, he 556 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 1: would get them from the let's see this. Uh so 557 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 1: an unidentified person, an American who was serving at the 558 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 1: Eligibility office of the International Refugee Organization in Rome. Okay, 559 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,919 Speaker 1: so you've got a person working with an office in Rome, 560 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:30,319 Speaker 1: uh to get some papers, right. That only apparently that 561 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 1: only happened for a short time because things fell through 562 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 1: with all of that. But then he ended up working 563 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:42,040 Speaker 1: with another organization, the National Catholic Welfare Organization and UM 564 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,759 Speaker 1: as well as the Italian police and the Italian Foreign Office. Uh. 565 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 1: And that was again to obtain false documentation for Nazis 566 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,080 Speaker 1: that were attempting to escape. He would get false exit 567 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 1: and entry visas for at least three South American countries, 568 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:02,480 Speaker 1: the Argentina that we talked about, belive, even Chili Um 569 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:04,959 Speaker 1: and again in a lot of times, it's not known 570 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:09,279 Speaker 1: precisely how these documents are obtained, but it is known 571 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,680 Speaker 1: that there were just bribes that were going on with 572 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,640 Speaker 1: maybe an individual diplomat or somebody who could have access 573 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:21,280 Speaker 1: to those and it's not necessarily known the full um, 574 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,719 Speaker 1: let's say, compliance of any of these larger organizations that 575 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 1: I've mentioned up here, but someone at a higher level, 576 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 1: or a high enough level to actually create and get 577 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,399 Speaker 1: these documents was involved. Because these weren't counterfeit documents. These 578 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:40,800 Speaker 1: were official documents, yes, and with names with brand new names. Yeah, 579 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 1: that's the thing. It's it's like, at what point is 580 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,160 Speaker 1: something to forgery? You know, and at what point is 581 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,080 Speaker 1: it real? It's so because we're an audio podcast, Matt, 582 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,239 Speaker 1: you just held your hands the kind of the old 583 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 1: six in one hand happens another It's it's true. And 584 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,399 Speaker 1: we have to also remember if we're being if we're 585 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,879 Speaker 1: being completely objective, we have to a member in this 586 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,000 Speaker 1: situation with the organization the size of the Vatican or 587 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 1: the Catholic Church, it is laughably unlikely that everyone knew 588 00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 1: this was happening. Again, these are factions, right, this Dragonovic 589 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:18,880 Speaker 1: in what Croatia, right in the Nazi puppet state of 590 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,719 Speaker 1: Croatia at the time. It's a Knislav Sorry, I didn't 591 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:26,359 Speaker 1: say that earlier, oh first name, yes, yeah. And we 592 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,719 Speaker 1: also have to note that the Red Cross was another institution, 593 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,319 Speaker 1: not near as big nor as powerful as the Catholic Church, 594 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 1: but they also effectively helped war criminals escape in the 595 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 1: Did I did I mention that Dragonovic was a Catholic priest? 596 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 1: He was? Yet? Did I don't? I don't think I yeah, 597 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,719 Speaker 1: I am so sorry. I totally bury the lead there. 598 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:51,279 Speaker 1: That was the whole point. It was, it was a 599 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,240 Speaker 1: priest doing all of that work, obtaining all of these papers. 600 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:59,640 Speaker 1: Um yeah, sorry, Croatian Roman Catholic priest. Yes, yeah, yeah, 601 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:05,120 Speaker 1: he is uh yeah, Kronoslav Dragovic. Uh. He was working 602 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:12,320 Speaker 1: in Croatia and was assisting Croatian fascists like sympathizers to 603 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:16,719 Speaker 1: the Nazi Party. Members of the Nazi Party working in Croatia, 604 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 1: which at that point was a vassal of larger Germany. 605 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,359 Speaker 1: The Red Cross, though, the big question with them is 606 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 1: whether they whether they aided and embedded war criminals on 607 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:33,880 Speaker 1: purpose or just through the sheer, the sheer weight of incompetence, 608 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:41,200 Speaker 1: the sheer inertia of ineptitude, because they were overwhelmed with refugees. 609 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:45,120 Speaker 1: How easy is it if you're one, even as many 610 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,480 Speaker 1: as fifteen people, How easy is it for you to 611 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:51,840 Speaker 1: slip through with hundreds of thousands? And you know, imagine 612 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:55,759 Speaker 1: your job is every day, eight hours a day, you 613 00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,800 Speaker 1: sit at the at the front of a never ending line. 614 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 1: People hand you papers. It may or may not speak 615 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,840 Speaker 1: a language you understand. You have three to five seconds 616 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,080 Speaker 1: to look at the paper and stamp it. I'm I'm 617 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 1: spitballing here. I know, I totally see this working, especially 618 00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:20,320 Speaker 1: if you're talking about between nineteen nineteen forty eight. Maybe, Um, 619 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 1: if you show up to a refugee servicing area like 620 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:29,680 Speaker 1: that or processing location and you don't have official papers 621 00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:33,799 Speaker 1: with you because whatever the excuses they you know where 622 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:35,960 Speaker 1: my country is literally at war. I don't have my 623 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,920 Speaker 1: papers with me. I'm trying to escape. How like, how 624 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,640 Speaker 1: do you prove the identity of somebody. So the Red 625 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:47,960 Speaker 1: Cross had previously mentioned this that they said, yes, some 626 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:53,880 Speaker 1: Nazi war criminals or Axis criminals had escaped through the 627 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:58,480 Speaker 1: refugee process. But oddly enough, when I went back to 628 00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,000 Speaker 1: look at the page on the Red Cross website where 629 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:05,319 Speaker 1: they mentioned it, it's been pulled. Yeah, maybe it's just 630 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:07,800 Speaker 1: an older link. I'm sure, I'm sure we can find 631 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:11,880 Speaker 1: the source out there. But they that's their argument, is 632 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,640 Speaker 1: that the system was overwhelmed. No one was doing anything 633 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 1: on purpose, but there their process was supposed to have 634 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:26,160 Speaker 1: the equivalent of a background check from the Allied military, 635 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:30,319 Speaker 1: but it was pretty it was pretty cursory, and they 636 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:34,719 Speaker 1: often in the Red the Red Cross relied on references 637 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:38,240 Speaker 1: from the Vatican that could easily be duped up or fixed. 638 00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:42,399 Speaker 1: And these travel papers that people would get they were 639 00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:48,399 Speaker 1: called uh ten, one hundreds or one zero dote and 640 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:52,359 Speaker 1: they were very easy to get because when you're trying 641 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,719 Speaker 1: to process millions of Venis and people who have had 642 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,520 Speaker 1: their lives destroyed, you know, you want to make the 643 00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:01,680 Speaker 1: process as quick as possible, right yeah, and you have to, 644 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:05,680 Speaker 1: I mean for safety, for health reasons. You can't just 645 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 1: leave people in limbo like that. So with Dragonovic. He 646 00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:16,080 Speaker 1: is he is functioning as an agent in this chaotic time. Uh, 647 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:21,239 Speaker 1: he had would you say he had? He had set 648 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:26,480 Speaker 1: up travel to three different South American Yeah, Bolivia, Argentina, 649 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:29,719 Speaker 1: and Chile. So we know that he had some kind 650 00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:31,640 Speaker 1: of pool what did they call it on the wire, 651 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:36,080 Speaker 1: suction maybe it was it was, Yeah, I think it 652 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:39,680 Speaker 1: was in a lot of suction. Yeah, they had some 653 00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:43,759 Speaker 1: kind of you know, juice or whatever Dragonovic did. And 654 00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:48,680 Speaker 1: this rat line was abandoned or disbanded would be a 655 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,480 Speaker 1: better word than what the fifties. Yeah, it was disbanded 656 00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:54,919 Speaker 1: nine And according to some sources, it was because they 657 00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:56,759 Speaker 1: were just done with it. They've gotten everyone out that 658 00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:58,239 Speaker 1: they wanted to get out and they were able to 659 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,879 Speaker 1: shut it down, so they succeed did essentially. Yeah, and 660 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,400 Speaker 1: this leads us to this leads us to one of 661 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 1: the great mysteries of World War Two, one of the 662 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:13,759 Speaker 1: real and genuine conspiracies. What happened to the ones that 663 00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:19,799 Speaker 1: got away? You can find plethora of ideas and I'm 664 00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,760 Speaker 1: using that word correctly. Uh, you can find a plethora 665 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:28,520 Speaker 1: of ideas about this, but some are more plausible than others. 666 00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:32,920 Speaker 1: In the Dragonovic case, we know that he assisted Klaus 667 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 1: Barbie in escaping. This person has never been caught. Yeah, 668 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:41,359 Speaker 1: Klaus Claus ended up getting to Bolivia, at least that's 669 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,560 Speaker 1: what's believed. Um. It's also believed that the United States 670 00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:49,840 Speaker 1: ended up helping him get there along with Dragonovic. Um. 671 00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,879 Speaker 1: He was Barbie was actually captured in eighty three. Um, 672 00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:58,760 Speaker 1: and then we found out that he died in uh 673 00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,320 Speaker 1: and we found out because he was in prison in France. 674 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,680 Speaker 1: There we go. Yeah, so some of these people just 675 00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:08,719 Speaker 1: got away for a time. A lot. That's a that 676 00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:10,839 Speaker 1: is the one of the main stories of a lot 677 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:14,120 Speaker 1: of these guys. They end up getting identified much later 678 00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:16,880 Speaker 1: in life. Um. Several of them end up in trial 679 00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:19,400 Speaker 1: for you know, in various ways. They end up in 680 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:21,560 Speaker 1: trial because they end up in a prison somewhere else, 681 00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,640 Speaker 1: or they get used for a time. UM as in, Oh, 682 00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:27,799 Speaker 1: who which which guy is this? Let me jump back 683 00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:33,640 Speaker 1: over here. I believe it's Alloy Brunner. Yes, I think 684 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:37,280 Speaker 1: Alloy Brunner. He is a guy who ended up in 685 00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:43,200 Speaker 1: Syria and he was actually assisting the prior to Bashar 686 00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:47,960 Speaker 1: al Assad, Buthar's father. He was assisting that regime in 687 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:52,440 Speaker 1: military tactics allegedly in developing something called the German chair, 688 00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:56,240 Speaker 1: which was a torture device that would break someone's back 689 00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:58,799 Speaker 1: when they were when it was applied to them. Um, 690 00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:05,160 Speaker 1: he was like, since the century modern furniture is interesting. No, no, um, 691 00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:07,680 Speaker 1: I mean real torture. This guy was developing real torture 692 00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:11,480 Speaker 1: while in Syria, and he was living a fairly comfortable 693 00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:13,960 Speaker 1: life early on when he got there. I think it's 694 00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,840 Speaker 1: sometime in the fifties when he ended up in Syria 695 00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:21,920 Speaker 1: and he uh he He's described as a card in 696 00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:25,160 Speaker 1: the hand of a regime. Right, So, like we were 697 00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,799 Speaker 1: talking about with the United States seeing strategic power and 698 00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:32,280 Speaker 1: having these scientists, this guy was seen as a military 699 00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,839 Speaker 1: strategist or a at least someone who could help them 700 00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:39,120 Speaker 1: with their means to or in their ways to achieve 701 00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:45,040 Speaker 1: greater power. Right under the name George Fisher. Yes, he helped. 702 00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:51,759 Speaker 1: He helped organize the this let's see, it's important, but 703 00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:56,440 Speaker 1: it's weird to explain. He helped organize the compartmentalization of 704 00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:00,200 Speaker 1: the intelligence services, and I think he trained of the 705 00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:04,000 Speaker 1: regime's top intelligence people. The big thing it was teaching 706 00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:06,600 Speaker 1: them was that if you truly want to be in 707 00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:10,200 Speaker 1: charge you compartmentalize information. You don't want your left hand 708 00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:12,560 Speaker 1: knowing what your right hand is doing, because one day 709 00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:15,320 Speaker 1: you may have to clap them against one another essentially, 710 00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:18,760 Speaker 1: and only you, in a very small group of people 711 00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,640 Speaker 1: will know. Anyway, here's this chair I made. It breaks 712 00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:23,960 Speaker 1: people's backs. Yeah, it's really messed up and it's a 713 00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:25,920 Speaker 1: crazy story. You can read more about it at the 714 00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,319 Speaker 1: Irish Times dot com. That's where we found an article 715 00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:33,440 Speaker 1: called Nazi war criminal reportedly died in Assyrian Dungeon Um. 716 00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:36,200 Speaker 1: And again the name is A L O I S 717 00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:38,480 Speaker 1: B R U N N E R. And then there 718 00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:42,560 Speaker 1: are others such as Adolph Eichman, Joseph Mangle. There's one 719 00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:45,319 Speaker 1: in particular one to touch on. This guy's name is 720 00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:50,279 Speaker 1: or was Heinrich Mueller is the last chief of the Gestapo. 721 00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:56,920 Speaker 1: His fate after World War Two. According to the Jewish 722 00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:01,920 Speaker 1: Virtual Libraries accounts, Mueller got away or was thought to 723 00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:06,360 Speaker 1: have gotten away for decades and decades. They thought he 724 00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,359 Speaker 1: had just slipped the net and no one could find 725 00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:14,440 Speaker 1: him After multiple investigations. However, the official story is that 726 00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:18,640 Speaker 1: in October evidence surface that he had been buried in 727 00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:21,560 Speaker 1: a mass grave in Berlin at the close of the 728 00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:30,480 Speaker 1: war in fort However, No, that's this, this research still 729 00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:35,640 Speaker 1: remains for some people a little I don't know, arguable, 730 00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:39,200 Speaker 1: Like they're just like we talked about with deaths of 731 00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:42,520 Speaker 1: I hate to say it, but deaths of other historically notable, 732 00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:47,279 Speaker 1: infamous or famous people. Uh, the the story doesn't die 733 00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:50,480 Speaker 1: when the person does. Like there are people alive now 734 00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:54,879 Speaker 1: who think Elvis Presley is somehow alive. And Elvis Presley 735 00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:58,879 Speaker 1: was a celebrity and a musician who did briefly work 736 00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:01,520 Speaker 1: with us long force or attempt to. But he was 737 00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:08,080 Speaker 1: a Asian man exactly talking and but but these are 738 00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:13,440 Speaker 1: war criminals, and we will never know the fate of 739 00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:18,399 Speaker 1: some of them. That's why for decades, and that's why, 740 00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:20,919 Speaker 1: for decades after the war, you know, since before many 741 00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:23,560 Speaker 1: of us were born listening today, there were people who 742 00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:29,000 Speaker 1: just hunted these folks down. And the list doesn't stop there. 743 00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:32,880 Speaker 1: We have a lot of like allegedly or is believed 744 00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:38,319 Speaker 1: twos or is suspected twos in these people's stories. We know, 745 00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:42,400 Speaker 1: we know stories of Nazis where you can follow the 746 00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:47,960 Speaker 1: line maybe to an extradition country, right, and then they 747 00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:52,600 Speaker 1: disappear and there's a few years later a report of 748 00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:59,280 Speaker 1: like an elderly uh an elderly German retiree expiring quietly 749 00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,160 Speaker 1: in a small town and then some stuffs found in 750 00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:03,879 Speaker 1: the attic or something. But there are also a lot 751 00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:07,000 Speaker 1: of these people who end up in a tribunal or 752 00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:09,839 Speaker 1: a court when they are in their eighties because they 753 00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:13,960 Speaker 1: get found out living in America somewhere, or living in 754 00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:18,239 Speaker 1: France even sometimes, or in Argentina, Believia, wherever it's going 755 00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:21,160 Speaker 1: to be. There's so many stories of this, stories about this, 756 00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:26,480 Speaker 1: and of people going through this and finally seeing justice 757 00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:30,480 Speaker 1: because there, I mean, it's alleged like somewhere between. I 758 00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:33,040 Speaker 1: don't know the exact number, and we can't really ever 759 00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:38,280 Speaker 1: know the exact number, but thousands of SS and German 760 00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:42,400 Speaker 1: soldiers military made it out alive. We just don't know 761 00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,480 Speaker 1: exactly how many that is. I've seen it alleged up 762 00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:49,160 Speaker 1: to ten thousand, I think perhaps even more, just through 763 00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:57,120 Speaker 1: the alleged Odessa program exactly. And there we have to 764 00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:02,120 Speaker 1: leave it at this point. Still it's and people will 765 00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:05,680 Speaker 1: tell you Odessa was or was not real, right, we 766 00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:09,239 Speaker 1: have to ask ourselves about the degree of sophistication the 767 00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:14,520 Speaker 1: degree of collaboration that these rat lines employed. While they 768 00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:18,600 Speaker 1: may have not been members of some elaborate global secret society, 769 00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:24,560 Speaker 1: those clandestine escape routes were real, and more often than 770 00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:28,000 Speaker 1: some would like to admit, these roots were also successful. 771 00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:34,319 Speaker 1: Is this something that could happen in in these our 772 00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:38,040 Speaker 1: modern days. It could. It would have to be different though, 773 00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:42,680 Speaker 1: because surveillance technology has just evolved, right, it would have 774 00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:48,160 Speaker 1: to be more of a low level human trafficking kind 775 00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:50,560 Speaker 1: of situation, I think, where you're not actually going to 776 00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:54,840 Speaker 1: use real papers. Well maybe that's not true, maybe that's 777 00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:57,440 Speaker 1: maybe that's not true at all. So there's an interesting 778 00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:02,920 Speaker 1: there's an interesting dilemma here because although there there have 779 00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,400 Speaker 1: been so many technological breakthroughs that allow people to be 780 00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:09,520 Speaker 1: closely observed, more closely than ever before at any point 781 00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:15,360 Speaker 1: in history, the control of those technologies is also increasingly 782 00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:18,520 Speaker 1: in the hand of a smaller and smaller and smaller 783 00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:23,760 Speaker 1: subset of human individuals and institutions. So it's like there's 784 00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:26,680 Speaker 1: more water coming out of the faucet, but there are 785 00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:30,120 Speaker 1: fewer people capable of turning the knobs. And what that 786 00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:35,839 Speaker 1: means is that if this is entirely hypothetical, I'm not 787 00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:39,200 Speaker 1: describing the real thing. What that means in theory is 788 00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:46,799 Speaker 1: that if if our superproducer Loell needed to disappear for 789 00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:50,160 Speaker 1: some reason and had the assistance of Uncle Sam in 790 00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:56,200 Speaker 1: doing so, then the Alphabet agencies could simply erase his 791 00:52:56,400 --> 00:53:00,520 Speaker 1: digital footprint. It's it's fascinating and something don't really have 792 00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:05,040 Speaker 1: an answer for. Again, that's entirely speculative, but it is possible. Agreed. 793 00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:10,040 Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about Nazis anymore today? Can we? 794 00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:13,759 Speaker 1: Can we stop talking about Nazis? Yes? I'm right there 795 00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:16,640 Speaker 1: with you. Do you want to talk about Nazis? No? 796 00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:20,479 Speaker 1: I mean you you want to talk about Nazis? Um? 797 00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:23,880 Speaker 1: You do? Tune into our nude podcast, Nazi Talk, Yes, 798 00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:26,440 Speaker 1: coming out soon on the I Heart Radio podcast. Did 799 00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:30,520 Speaker 1: you did you call our nude Podastes? Do you do 800 00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:34,879 Speaker 1: it in the nude? Yes? Yes? What do you think, um? 801 00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:40,320 Speaker 1: Do you believe that these rat lines are an historical oddity? 802 00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:43,960 Speaker 1: Do you think that they were less effective than films 803 00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:47,440 Speaker 1: and some historians would have us believe. Do you think 804 00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:51,000 Speaker 1: things like this occur in the modern day? And if so, 805 00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:55,880 Speaker 1: where and when? There is some evidence of CIA involvement 806 00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:59,600 Speaker 1: in some Eastern European situations where they spirited out a 807 00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:02,759 Speaker 1: couple of dictators and give them false identities. But do 808 00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:07,279 Speaker 1: you think it ever occurred on the scale Again, and 809 00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:09,600 Speaker 1: maybe on a more personal note, since, as you said, Matt, 810 00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:12,680 Speaker 1: we should get away from the Nazi stuff. If you 811 00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:16,359 Speaker 1: were going to disappear, where would you go? And why 812 00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:18,680 Speaker 1: let us know? You can find us on Instagram, you 813 00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:21,120 Speaker 1: can find us on Facebook. You can find us on Twitter. 814 00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:23,279 Speaker 1: You can hang out with our favorite part of the show, 815 00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:26,400 Speaker 1: your fellow listeners on our Facebook page. Here's where it 816 00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:28,160 Speaker 1: gets crazy. If you don't want to do that, you 817 00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:30,400 Speaker 1: give us a call. We are one eight three three 818 00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:33,920 Speaker 1: st d w y t K. You can leave a 819 00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:36,160 Speaker 1: message and perhaps get on the air at some point 820 00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:38,200 Speaker 1: when we do another one of those episodes, which we 821 00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:40,480 Speaker 1: will uh And if you don't want to do any 822 00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:43,240 Speaker 1: of that stuff, please send us a good old fashioned email. 823 00:54:43,400 --> 00:55:05,839 Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at iHeart radio dot com. Yeah. Stuff 824 00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:07,520 Speaker 1: they don't want you to know is a production of 825 00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:10,359 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from 826 00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:13,480 Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 827 00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:15,400 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.