WEBVTT - Short Stuff: Dare Stones

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<v Speaker 1>Hey there, and welcome to short stuff. I'm Josh Clark.

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<v Speaker 1>There's Charles to Beach Briant, and there's Jerry Jerome wrong

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<v Speaker 1>and over there. Yeah. The only reason need to stop

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<v Speaker 1>that notice because you saw me draw it to a

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<v Speaker 1>close like a conductor. I know you conduct me. That's

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<v Speaker 1>a T shirt. So this is a follow up everyone.

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<v Speaker 1>We do these occasionally. About five this years ago, five

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<v Speaker 1>and a half fish, five and a half ish we

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<v Speaker 1>did have In three quarters we did a full length

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<v Speaker 1>episode on the Roanoke Colony, The Creepy Spooky Crow Ato

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<v Speaker 1>and Mystery of Roanoak so good, and in it we

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<v Speaker 1>spent just a few minutes talking about the dare Stones.

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<v Speaker 1>But when I went back and listened to it again,

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<v Speaker 1>we didn't go into nearly enough detail. And so we're

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<v Speaker 1>gonna do that right now. We are, so just to

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<v Speaker 1>kind of bring you guys back up to date real quick.

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<v Speaker 1>And it still is as a matter of fact, of

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<v Speaker 1>North Carolina near the North Carolina Virginia border. It was

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<v Speaker 1>the first attempt, I believe in in English colony. There

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<v Speaker 1>was a first wave in fiftive that didn't work out,

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<v Speaker 1>and then a second wave. Maybe it was even the

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<v Speaker 1>third wave technically came along in July seven, and this

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<v Speaker 1>ship carried ninety men, seventeen women, and eleven children. And

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<v Speaker 1>it was led by a guy named John White who

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<v Speaker 1>was named the governor of the I guess Roanoke Colony,

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<v Speaker 1>and he had his daughter, Eleanor Dare with him. She

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<v Speaker 1>was married to uh Anna I a Stare. I think

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<v Speaker 1>that's how you say that great sixteenth century name. It

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<v Speaker 1>sure is and Anna and I as I just want

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<v Speaker 1>to say that all the time. And Eleanor had a baby,

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<v Speaker 1>the first English born or English baby born in America,

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<v Speaker 1>whose name was Virginia Dare. Now do you know if

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<v Speaker 1>they did it in America? Was the conceived in America

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<v Speaker 1>or just born in America? I don't know. I don't know. Actually,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm kind of I'm just kind of curious. It doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>really matter, because what really matters is this was the

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<v Speaker 1>first English baby born in the New World. And it

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<v Speaker 1>was a very big deal for little baby Virginia to

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<v Speaker 1>come along. It was so um. In short order, Virginia's grandfather,

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<v Speaker 1>John White, the head of the colony, says, hey, guys,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm kind of bored. I'm gonna go back to England.

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<v Speaker 1>And I'll get some supplies. I'll be back within a year.

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<v Speaker 1>You guys sit tight, just keep building this colony up,

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<v Speaker 1>and uh, it'll be all good b RB. Right. But

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<v Speaker 1>he did not b RB. He beat a long time

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<v Speaker 1>from coming back, right, And about three years worth comes

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<v Speaker 1>back and no one's there. His daughter's gone, his grand

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<v Speaker 1>little Virginia's gone. Everybody's gone. Um, the buildings are dismantled.

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<v Speaker 1>And as you learned in that episode, the word crow

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<v Speaker 1>at Owen was carved and that was in a I

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<v Speaker 1>guess it was a tree, right, Yeah, they carved into

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<v Speaker 1>a tree, and crow Tone was the name of a

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<v Speaker 1>friendly nearby tribe that the English had been in contact with.

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<v Speaker 1>That's right. So, uh, what was not there was across

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<v Speaker 1>and White said, hey, listen, if there's you know, some

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<v Speaker 1>bad stuff going on, and you guys have to split

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<v Speaker 1>like just to take some time to carve across into

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<v Speaker 1>a tree, so I'll know that bad stuff happened. That

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<v Speaker 1>cross was not there. So there's always been a big

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<v Speaker 1>mystery about what crow a Tone was all about why

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<v Speaker 1>there was no cross and what happened to the hundred

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<v Speaker 1>and eighteen settlers, Like that was it? There was that

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<v Speaker 1>was the that was the sum total of the evidence,

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<v Speaker 1>and John White asked around a little bit, didn't try

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<v Speaker 1>all that hard to find him actually for it being

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<v Speaker 1>the you know, his daughter, his son in law and

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<v Speaker 1>his granddaughter and the first American, right exactly, first English American. Sure, um,

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<v Speaker 1>you want to get us killed? Uh? And uh so

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<v Speaker 1>he he goes back to England and the mystery just

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<v Speaker 1>sets in. When Jamestown settlers come along, they ask around,

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<v Speaker 1>they hear, they hear rumors of um tribes that are

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<v Speaker 1>made up of like light skinned people who speak English

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<v Speaker 1>and live in two story thatched roof houses. Um. But

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<v Speaker 1>none of it is ever confirmed. There's no evidence whatsoever

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<v Speaker 1>what happened to these lost colonists at Roanoke. And that's

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<v Speaker 1>the way it was for three d and fifty is

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<v Speaker 1>years until uh the summer of nine seven, when a

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<v Speaker 1>guy from California named L. E. Hammond, which, as i've

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<v Speaker 1>I've found, um is not to be confused with Lah

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<v Speaker 1>Hammond Inferno, which is a synth band that I came

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<v Speaker 1>across today accidentally, I kind of they're pretty good. Um.

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<v Speaker 1>His name was actually Lewis Hammond, but he was a

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<v Speaker 1>produced dealer from California, and he showed up at Emory

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<v Speaker 1>University and said, Hey, I'm on vacation in North Carolina

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<v Speaker 1>with my wife looking for hickory nuts as you do.

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<v Speaker 1>And I found this weird stone. What do you guys

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<v Speaker 1>make of this thing? Yeah, so Emory's right here in Atlanta.

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<v Speaker 1>And it was inscribed and with a message, and he said,

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<v Speaker 1>can you guys tell me what this says? And I'm

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<v Speaker 1>gonna read it right now in full. This is the

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<v Speaker 1>sort of you know, modernized version, because it was it's

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<v Speaker 1>sort of like reading Jeffrey Chaucer or something, so it

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<v Speaker 1>has to get translated. So here's what it said. Father.

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<v Speaker 1>Soon after you go for England, we came here only

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<v Speaker 1>misery and war for two years above half dead. These

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<v Speaker 1>two years more from sickness. Being twenty four, a savage

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<v Speaker 1>with a message of a ship came to us. Within

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<v Speaker 1>a small space of time, they became frightened of revenge

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<v Speaker 1>and ran all away. We believe it was not you.

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<v Speaker 1>Soon after the savages said spirits were angry, suddenly they

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<v Speaker 1>murdered all save seven. That means all but seven. My

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<v Speaker 1>child and annon I as two were slain with much misery.

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<v Speaker 1>Is there any other way that peace Lane is my question?

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<v Speaker 1>Buried all near four miles east of this river, upon

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<v Speaker 1>a small hill, names were written all there on a rock.

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<v Speaker 1>Put this there. Also, if a savage shows this to you,

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<v Speaker 1>we promised you would give them great plenty presents. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>So there you have it. Yeah, And it was E. W. D.

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<v Speaker 1>Eleanor White Dare that's what you would think. Yeah, And

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<v Speaker 1>so the Emery professors are like, where did you get this?

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<v Speaker 1>You may have just solved like a three hundred and

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<v Speaker 1>fifty year old mystery. And Lewis Hammond was like, somewhere

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<v Speaker 1>about fifty miles inland. They went, what did you just say?

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<v Speaker 1>He said, I don't know, about fifty miles from Roanoke

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<v Speaker 1>Island And they said, well, you know, John White, the governor,

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<v Speaker 1>famously reckoned that the Roanoke colonists had moved fifty miles

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<v Speaker 1>into the main So that would definitely coincide with that idea. Um.

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<v Speaker 1>So they went back to this area where um Lewis

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<v Speaker 1>Hammond found this rock and they could not find the spot.

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<v Speaker 1>He couldn't find the spot where he originally found it

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<v Speaker 1>to show them, but he left it with them. I

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<v Speaker 1>think sold it to him. I think is more accurate,

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<v Speaker 1>and then went back to California and was scarcely heard

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<v Speaker 1>from again. That's right. So we're gonna take a break.

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<v Speaker 1>We're gonna come back and tell you, as Paul Harvey

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<v Speaker 1>would say, the rest of the story as sk So

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<v Speaker 1>here's the deal with that original stone. Um, it depends

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<v Speaker 1>on who you talk to. Some people say it was authentic.

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<v Speaker 1>Some people still say it's authentic and may have solved

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<v Speaker 1>the mystery. Some people say no, it was not. We'll

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<v Speaker 1>talk a little bit more about that in a second.

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<v Speaker 1>But what happened was the whole country started talking. Uh.

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<v Speaker 1>That was a professor at Emory name Heywood J. Pierce Jr.

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<v Speaker 1>Who published that paper, published a paper so talking all

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<v Speaker 1>about the stone in the Journal of Southern History in

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<v Speaker 1>ninety eight. He had his father, Heywood J. Pierce, dad,

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<v Speaker 1>and he owned. Daddy owned a college, Burnell University, which

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<v Speaker 1>is in Gainesville, Georgias. Now it was Burnell University. Now

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<v Speaker 1>I think down now just the fever that's properly, it's

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<v Speaker 1>probably out of shirt somewhere. So they started to have

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<v Speaker 1>suspicions because, like you said, when they went back, they

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<v Speaker 1>couldn't really find exactly where he found it. They got

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<v Speaker 1>a I guess a private investigator or somebody in California

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<v Speaker 1>to look into this Hammond guy, and they really couldn't

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<v Speaker 1>find much to corroborate a story or even who he

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<v Speaker 1>said he was, other than his name and address. I

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<v Speaker 1>saw an internet sleuth explained it by saying, you know what,

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<v Speaker 1>this guy was married before in a census, Um, he

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<v Speaker 1>has two children and seven they were still underage, so um,

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<v Speaker 1>he may have been laying low and keeping away from

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<v Speaker 1>publicity so he wouldn't pay child support. Interesting. I thought

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<v Speaker 1>that was a clever, interesting explanation for it, because what

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<v Speaker 1>I found was there was nothing to indicate that this

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<v Speaker 1>guy was actually a fraud, just that they couldn't really

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<v Speaker 1>follow up with them very easily. Yeah, but at the

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<v Speaker 1>very least Pierce and Pierce were uh, still very intrigued

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<v Speaker 1>by this original stone and said, uh, here's a reward

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<v Speaker 1>offered for any additional stones that pop up five bucks.

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<v Speaker 1>And all of a sudden people are like, oh, I

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<v Speaker 1>got some stones, you want some, you want five? You

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<v Speaker 1>wanna give me five dollars, I'll show you some Deir stones. Uh.

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<v Speaker 1>Specifically a man named Bill Eberhardt who was an artist.

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<v Speaker 1>He was a stone cutter from Fulton County right here

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<v Speaker 1>in Atlanta, and he was paid two thousand dollars for

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<v Speaker 1>forty two forgeries that he turned over as de Air stones.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's not like they they said, hey, thanks for

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<v Speaker 1>these forgeries, here's some money. They thought they were they

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<v Speaker 1>were real at the time. But um on the stones,

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<v Speaker 1>the series of stones, it basically tracks Eleanor. It's like

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<v Speaker 1>Eleanor's little break breadcrumb diary that goes all the way

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<v Speaker 1>down to Georgia, almost to Atlanta, and along the way

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<v Speaker 1>she marries a chief from the Cherokee tribe, has another

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<v Speaker 1>daughter named agnes Um you know, uh possibly like becomes

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<v Speaker 1>romantically entangled with Tom Hanks over email for a little while,

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<v Speaker 1>and then ends up dying in a cave in Georgia.

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<v Speaker 1>I just love the idea of this stone cutter, like

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<v Speaker 1>inventing the storyline, you know, right, He's like, this is

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<v Speaker 1>the life I wish I had had. You know, you

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<v Speaker 1>could have been a screenwriter, Bill Everhard. I wonder, who

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<v Speaker 1>if he's got to have family here still, this is

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<v Speaker 1>just like the late thirties in Fulton County. Man, I

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<v Speaker 1>hope somebody's listening. They're like stop talking about my uncle

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<v Speaker 1>Bill like this. I think it's great. I guess all right,

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<v Speaker 1>so this is uh the flash ward In April, the

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<v Speaker 1>Saturday Evening Post said, you know what, these Norman Rockwell

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<v Speaker 1>covers are great, but what we really want to do

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<v Speaker 1>is run an expose on these Dare Stones and basically

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<v Speaker 1>shut it down as a complete forgery. Yeah. They they

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<v Speaker 1>did some real leg work to just totally undermine the

0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:24.040
<v Speaker 1>Daar Stones, which really kind of goes to to point

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<v Speaker 1>out how much the Dare Stones had totally captured the

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<v Speaker 1>imagination of the entire country. Um, this was a big, big,

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<v Speaker 1>widely publicized deal, and Saturday Evening Post came along and said, no,

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<v Speaker 1>look at this crack in this crack in this crack,

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<v Speaker 1>and basically, by the end of the article had just

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<v Speaker 1>completely revealed the whole thing as a hoax. And definitely

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<v Speaker 1>everything after that first one that Lewis Hammond found is

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<v Speaker 1>most decidedly at hoax at best. The Lewis Hammond stone is,

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<v Speaker 1>like you were saying, up for debate. But the Saturday

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<v Speaker 1>Evening Post said, no, there's anachronistic language in there. Things

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<v Speaker 1>like reconnoiter would not have been used. Um, there's a

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<v Speaker 1>problem with the fact that they used Arabic numerals um,

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<v Speaker 1>which didn't come into into use until later on. It's

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<v Speaker 1>weird that she made like vs instead of use, which

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<v Speaker 1>is kind of like Roman lettering a little bit. Um.

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<v Speaker 1>And at the time when the Saturday Evening Post dropped

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<v Speaker 1>this article, I was like, oh, well, that's it. It's

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<v Speaker 1>a total, total fraud and a total hoax. But as

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<v Speaker 1>the years kind of went by and bright Now University

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<v Speaker 1>suffered a tremendous public relations crisis as a result of this.

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<v Speaker 1>A lot of people looked really bad for verifying these

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<v Speaker 1>stones is authentic and then just being totally undermined by

0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:43.800
<v Speaker 1>the Saturday Evening Post br Now and and um, everyone

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<v Speaker 1>related to the stones almost literally buried them away in

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<v Speaker 1>a basement and then later on in an attic and

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<v Speaker 1>br now and tried to forget about it as much

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<v Speaker 1>as possible. Yeah, Pierce and Pierce had egg on their

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<v Speaker 1>face and that was no good. But people today say

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<v Speaker 1>again that it's possible that first one might be like,

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<v Speaker 1>for real, Um, it's different rock than these other ones.

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<v Speaker 1>It's this white, really bright white quartzite interior and has

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<v Speaker 1>a dark exterior, so it would have been something really good,

0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:15.319
<v Speaker 1>like almost like a chalkboard for her to use, So

0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:19.160
<v Speaker 1>that sort of makes sense. And um, it doesn't have

0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:23.000
<v Speaker 1>this anachronistic language that those other stones do. Uh. The

0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:25.040
<v Speaker 1>sign off is a little weird with E W D

0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:27.240
<v Speaker 1>because that's probably not what she would have done in

0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:30.199
<v Speaker 1>the sixteenth century. Other people say, no, no, no, it's

0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:33.320
<v Speaker 1>still that Chowen riverstone is a phony. And what they're

0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:37.160
<v Speaker 1>hoping is is that modern techniques can uh kind of

0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:39.440
<v Speaker 1>test this thing out at some point and see if

0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:43.000
<v Speaker 1>it's in fact legit. Yeah, because it's basically been cleared

0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:45.719
<v Speaker 1>by a lot of the humanities. People like there's an

0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:50.760
<v Speaker 1>expert in medieval graffiti, um who said this actually checks

0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:54.079
<v Speaker 1>out pretty well. Here's an example of somebody using Arabic numerals,

0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:56.640
<v Speaker 1>here's an example of somebody signing their name in this

0:13:56.720 --> 0:14:02.360
<v Speaker 1>kind of UM kind of abbreviation UM. So a lot

0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:04.320
<v Speaker 1>of it's been explained away. And the fact that it

0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:07.880
<v Speaker 1>is white quartzite, that when she carved it, like you said,

0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:10.120
<v Speaker 1>it would have been like a chalkboard. That would be

0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:13.120
<v Speaker 1>a terrible stone for a forger to choose, because you

0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:17.079
<v Speaker 1>would have to go to tremendous amounts of trouble to

0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:21.760
<v Speaker 1>to to fake it. Basically you just choose a different stone. Um.

0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:23.880
<v Speaker 1>So the fact that that it would have been really

0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.200
<v Speaker 1>hard to forge and they tried at the time of

0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:29.400
<v Speaker 1>the Saturday Evening Post article to forge it three different

0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:32.960
<v Speaker 1>ways and nobody could do it, um really lends a

0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:36.760
<v Speaker 1>lot of credence to it. Keeps hope alive that this

0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:40.880
<v Speaker 1>first stone, the original stone, is actually real. Right, so

0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:43.920
<v Speaker 1>maybe we'll find out one day, is our technology advance

0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:46.920
<v Speaker 1>is what happened to the original callings at roh Noke,

0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:52.080
<v Speaker 1>or that this stone says exactly how it happened. So alright, Chuck,

0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:54.560
<v Speaker 1>you got anything else? Nothing else? Well, that is it

0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:58.880
<v Speaker 1>for short stuff everybody. Oh wait, Jerry, you got anything else? Okay,

0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:01.960
<v Speaker 1>Well that's it for short stuff everybody. Uh. You can

0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:04.840
<v Speaker 1>read a really great article on the dre Stones on

0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:06.920
<v Speaker 1>how stuff Works, and you can listen to our original

0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:09.840
<v Speaker 1>row Noke episode two at Stuff you Should Know dot

0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:12.280
<v Speaker 1>com and uh, in the meantime, we'll see you next

0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:17.320
<v Speaker 1>time short stuff out. Stuff you Should Know is a

0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:20.640
<v Speaker 1>production of iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts

0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:23.080
<v Speaker 1>for my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app Apple

0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:28.560
<v Speaker 1>Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H