1 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 2 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb. We were off yesterday for the holiday, 3 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: so today's episode is another vault episode. This is going 4 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: to be part three of our series from last year, 5 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: Ancient Oars on the Wine Dark Sea. It originally published 6 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: eight twenty seven, twenty twenty four. Let's jump right in. 7 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of iHeartRadio. 8 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:39,560 Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 9 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb. 10 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 3: And I am Joe McCormick. And we're back with part 11 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:47,279 Speaker 3: three of our series on the ore powered galleys of 12 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 3: the ancient world. Now, if you haven't heard parts one 13 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 3: and two yet, you should go back check those out first, 14 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 3: but for a brief recap. In the previous episodes, we 15 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 3: talked about the difference between paddling with a paddle and 16 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 3: with an ore. And ore is of course resting on 17 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 3: or connected to part of the boat itself, and you 18 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,960 Speaker 3: typically face backwards when you row. We talked about archaeological 19 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 3: evidence of Mesolithic wooden paddles found in Northern Europe. We 20 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 3: talked about some of the pressures leading to the development 21 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 3: of different power mechanisms for ancient boats, wind powered sails 22 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 3: versus human powered ores. We discussed the different designs of 23 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 3: war galleys in the ancient Mediterranean and the considerations that 24 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 3: led to increasing concentration of rowers and ores put more 25 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 3: ores in, starting with single level galleys, the penticonter and 26 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 3: its evolving forms, and eventually the famous Trirem, which had 27 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 3: three levels of oarsmen and was the dominant weapon of 28 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 3: the navies of the Mediterranean Empires for hundreds of years. 29 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 3: We also talked about experimental modern attempts to create replicas 30 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 3: of ancient Greek trirems, such as the Olympias project built 31 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 3: in the nineteen eighties, and we talked about the primary 32 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 3: battle tactics of the Trirem, the main weapon of which 33 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 3: was the ram used for ramming and cracking the hull 34 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 3: of the opposing ships. Oh and of course, back in 35 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 3: part one, we talked about Ptolemy, the fourth of Egypt's 36 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 3: gigantic ancient war boat, which we are going to come 37 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:24,639 Speaker 3: back to today. 38 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll come back to that one again and sort 39 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: of revisit it with perhaps a little more context. 40 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 3: Now, there's something I mentioned last time that I wanted 41 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:35,119 Speaker 3: to come back to at the top of today's episode, 42 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 3: which is the idea of the physical remains of rams 43 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 3: from these ancient warships. So we talked about how the 44 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 3: physical archaeological evidence for ancient war galleys is often pretty sparse, 45 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:54,519 Speaker 3: and so modern reconstructions have mostly had to go off 46 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 3: of descriptions in ancient texts and artistic representations that you 47 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:03,359 Speaker 3: might find on or something. So these ships were made 48 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 3: out of wood, and they, according to some sources we 49 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 3: talked about last time, they generally did not sink when 50 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 3: damaged in battle. They might kind of dip in the 51 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 3: water and become immobilized and they could be towed away afterwards, 52 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 3: or if they did sink, the wooden parts mostly decomposed 53 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 3: over time. 54 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And I was reading a little bit more 55 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: about this, this issue of positive buoyancy in try rems. 56 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 1: I was reading a bit by Mark C. Davies really 57 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: long titled to this, but I guess I have to 58 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: read the whole an investigation into the absence of ancient 59 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: Greek tryrems in the archaeological record and a study of 60 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: the battlefield deposition at the site of the Battle of 61 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: Agati's off the Agatti Islands to determine whether this example 62 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: could direct future exploration for evidence of ancient Greek sea battles. 63 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 3: M that's tight. 64 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I would have cut it if they'd just thrown 65 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: a colon in there. Anyway, This was a twenty twenty 66 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: one publication by Honor Frost Foundation. Anyway, the author here 67 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: is ultimately making the case that some tryrems may have 68 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:10,839 Speaker 1: actually sunk, and we should look for more particular environments 69 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: where some of the wreckage might have survived the sinking. 70 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 1: But he also outlines the predominant theory as well, that 71 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: we already touched on the trirems had positive buoyancy, particularly 72 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: during battle, because if you had anything heavy in there, 73 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: you had equipment or ballast, you'd throw that out and 74 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: then when defeated, they would not have been sunk like 75 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 1: we've been saying, but they would have been left flooded 76 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 1: and floundering. Thus they again, they tended to be dragged 77 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 1: back to port. They tended to be harvested for wood. 78 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: But Davies, for his part, stresses that there is disagreement 79 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 1: about how much equipment and or ballast a tryream would carry, 80 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: so it's not something we can be one hundred percent 81 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: certain of so there remains at least some scholarly disagreement 82 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:54,280 Speaker 1: and discussion on this matter. 83 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 3: Right. But for whatever reason, the wooden components of these 84 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 3: boats have rarely been preserved into the modern archaeological record. 85 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 3: Maybe that's due to positive buoyancy, maybe that's due to 86 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 3: decomposition in the water, or maybe we just failed to 87 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 3: find whatever's there. But for whatever reason, the wooden components 88 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 3: are often lost. But remember that the ram of the 89 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 3: ancient trirem was usually capped with a solid metal sheath 90 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 3: made of bronze, and we do have a number of 91 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 3: these bronze rams in archaeological collections today. So I was 92 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 3: reading about one particular bronze ram from the ancient world 93 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 3: in a source in a book called War at Sea, 94 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 3: A Shipwrecked History from Antiquity to the Cold War, by 95 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 3: James P. Delgado, Oxford University Press, twenty nineteen. And the 96 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 3: section of this book I was reading concerns a ram 97 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 3: called the Athlete ram. This is a bronze ram filled 98 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:01,799 Speaker 3: with wooden timbers, which was discovered by an archaeologist named 99 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 3: Yehoshua Ramone in nineteen eighty while he was snorkeling off 100 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:08,599 Speaker 3: the coast of a town called Athlet, which is near 101 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 3: the Israeli city of Haifa. Apparently, nothing else of real 102 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:16,599 Speaker 3: archaeological significance was found in the bay, so it wasn't 103 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 3: part of a broader shipwreck that anybody found. We just 104 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,479 Speaker 3: have the broken off ram with the bronze sheath on 105 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,919 Speaker 3: the outside and a wooden protrusion from the prow of 106 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 3: the boat inside. After being recovered from the sea, this 107 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:34,679 Speaker 3: object was subject to extensive study, so a few things 108 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 3: we know about it. It is thought, though this is 109 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 3: not certain, that the ancient warship it belonged to was 110 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 3: wrecked and then drifted close to the shore, and then 111 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 3: was broken apart and disintegrated somehow. They don't say how, 112 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 3: but maybe it was rocked in the waves or hit 113 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 3: against the rocks or something, but somehow it came apart. 114 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:00,359 Speaker 3: So the ram, with its heavy metal sheath, sank to 115 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 3: the ocean floor, and there it was preserved, and the 116 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 3: rest of the boat, the wooden elements, disintegrated over time. 117 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 3: The ram by itself, according to Delgado, weighs about five 118 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 3: hundred kilograms or about eleven hundred pounds, and the bronze 119 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 3: on it is an alloy of about ninety percent copper 120 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 3: and ten percent ten Now I found some slightly different 121 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 3: figures about the weight. I was reading about it also 122 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 3: at the website of the National Maritime Museum in Haifa, 123 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 3: where the object is kept, and they say about its 124 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 3: weight that the bronze casting is four hundred and sixty 125 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 3: five kilograms, and then together with the wood inside when 126 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 3: it was discovered, it was six hundred kilograms. That's about 127 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 3: a third of the weight of a typical mid sized car. 128 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 3: It originally had sixteen timbers from the ship's frame protruding 129 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 3: into the cast bronze fitting, and those timbers were extracted 130 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 3: by an American nautical archaeologist and named J. Richard Steffi. 131 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 3: Now the metal part of the ram is preserved at 132 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 3: that museum, the National Maritime Museum in Haifa. But Stephi 133 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 3: went on to publish important work on the Athlete Ram, 134 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 3: which led him to conclude that these rams and the 135 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 3: ships that bore them were carefully engineered to distribute the 136 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 3: force of an impact into the sturdy bottom of the 137 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 3: ship's hull, so that the ship itself could absorb the 138 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 3: shock of a ramming impact in battle without damaging itself 139 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 3: in the process. There is a quote from Stephie given 140 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 3: in this book. That is quote, the entire bottom of 141 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 3: the ship was essentially the weapon, so not just the 142 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 3: bronze Ram, but you should think of the ship itself 143 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 3: as the weapon. Another place, another source I was reading 144 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 3: in the last episode compared the Trirem's hull to an arrow. 145 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 3: It's designed to hit and absorb the shock and deliver 146 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 3: that punch at its tip. 147 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, listeners should definitely look up images of this ram 148 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 1: and tr rams in general, because I think one of 149 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: the most fetching things about them is that there is 150 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 1: this synthesis of elegance and design. Like it is, it's 151 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 1: a beautiful looking artifact, but its function is clear, like 152 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: it's function above everything else. That if you were to 153 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: compare it to something, you might compare it to like 154 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: a can opener, but a very elegant can opener, you know, 155 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: with some decorative flourishes. 156 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. But I want to get more into 157 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 3: the design of the bronze part itself in just a minute. 158 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 3: But first I want to focus on the way the 159 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 3: ram fits into the battle tactics. So, as we talked 160 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 3: about last time, there is a delicate balance in play 161 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 3: with the idea of ramming. It seems kind of an 162 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 3: oxymoron almost, you know, the ramming and delicacy, but there 163 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 3: is actually there's a sweet spot you need to hit 164 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 3: when you are designing a ship to ram and carrying 165 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 3: out a ramming maneuver talllets that you need to strike 166 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 3: is being able to ram an enemy boat and crack 167 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 3: its hull causing it to take on water without damaging 168 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 3: your own warship through impact stress and without punching a 169 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 3: hole through the enemy's hull and getting your ram stuck, 170 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 3: which was also bad for the attacking ship because getting 171 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 3: stuck means you are immobilized and vulnerable to being hit 172 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 3: on the broadside yourself. And this ties into something we 173 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 3: talked about in the last episode that ramming speed was 174 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 3: not necessarily top speed for these galleys because ramming another 175 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 3: ship at maximum speed was dangerous to the attacking ship 176 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,839 Speaker 3: for the previously mentioned reasons. Instead, you wanted to hit 177 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 3: another ship with your prow on their broadside within an 178 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 3: acceptable angle of attack, at just the right speed, and 179 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 3: to illustrate the forces in play with combat based on 180 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 3: ramming STEPI, the archaeologist used the analogy of trying to 181 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 3: knock down a brick wall with a wheeled vehicle. So 182 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 3: he said, you know, if you drive a motorcycle into 183 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 3: a brick wall at one hundred kilometers per hour, you 184 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 3: might knock down the bricks, but the motorcycle itself is 185 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 3: going to be destroyed in the process. But if you 186 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 3: are driving an eighteen wheeler loaded with heavy cargo into 187 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:22,199 Speaker 3: a brick wall, you can limit the risk to yourself 188 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 3: because you only need a relatively low speed with a 189 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 3: vehicle that heavy. The example given is like an eighteen 190 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 3: wheeler full of cargo going at ten kilometers per hour. 191 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 3: You can knock the wall down and maybe not damage 192 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 3: your own truck too much in the process. And of course, 193 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 3: the reason that a larger vehicle can knock down the 194 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 3: wall at a lower speed is that the greater mass 195 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 3: of the truck results in greater kinetic energy and that's 196 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 3: converted into force upon impact. So there was a trade 197 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 3: off with these warships. A heavier ship could do more 198 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 3: damage with a ramming attack at lower speeds. And I 199 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 3: remember last time, one of the books I was reading 200 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 3: had an estimate of a required ramming speed only around 201 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 3: two to four knots, depending on various factors like the 202 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 3: angle of attack, and that's between three point seven and 203 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 3: seven point five kilometers per hour, so it didn't have 204 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 3: to be going amazingly fast. But on the other hand, 205 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 3: a heavier ship was harder to maneuver, and so it's 206 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 3: harder to get behind the enemy, get to where you 207 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 3: need to be, and to outflank the enemy in terms 208 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 3: of the ramming approach. So there was an impetus to 209 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 3: make the ship lighter and more nimble so that it 210 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 3: could maneuver better in battle, but also heavier so that 211 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 3: it could deliver these attacks at lower speed. Now, if 212 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 3: we're thinking about a trireme or any ancient war alley 213 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 3: that executes a ramming maneuver as an arrow, of course, 214 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 3: a very important thing about an arrow is the arrow 215 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 3: head sort of the war head that delivers the force 216 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 3: of the attack. On one hand, if you want to 217 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:01,959 Speaker 3: maximize your damage causing potential, you could have a ram 218 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 3: shaped like a tusk or a tooth, something that narrows 219 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 3: down to a point at its tip, and that of 220 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 3: course really concentrates your impact force over the smallest surface 221 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 3: area and would be really good at punching a hole 222 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 3: in enemy vessels. You would make sure that when you 223 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 3: hit them it punches through and they take on water, 224 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 3: but again that comes at risk to the attacking vessel. 225 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 3: Once again, with a spike, you're likely to punch through 226 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 3: and then get stuck, which means there is a good 227 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 3: chance you're dead as well. So the popular Greek design 228 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 3: for a bronze ram sheath was actually not a spike, 229 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 3: but it was shaped with three narrow horizontal fins in 230 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 3: a kind of rectangular box shape, and this shape delivered 231 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 3: the ship's punch in a relatively small surface area. A 232 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 3: Delgado says that it's less than half of a square meter, 233 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 3: and it was especially effective at cracking the enemy ship's 234 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:03,839 Speaker 3: pl and making it take on water without stabbing through. 235 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 3: So you have to think of this as like they're 236 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:10,559 Speaker 3: kind of trying to design the perfect bronze hammer. They 237 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 3: want a surface texture that will deliver force well, that 238 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 3: will really really concentrate that impact force and damage the 239 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 3: enemy hull, but never get stuck. And for some reason, 240 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 3: this three finned design seemed to work very well, so 241 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 3: they stuck with it for hundreds of years. 242 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I say, one can imagine a combination of 243 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: field experience at sea in battle, and also perhaps some 244 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: harbor experiments as well. Let's try different designs out. Let's 245 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: see which ones are going to succeed, which ones can 246 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: punch that hole without getness stuck. 247 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, it would be fascinating if we could learn the 248 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:53,239 Speaker 3: design process, like you know, what led to this particular 249 00:14:53,280 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 3: design that was used over and over. Now, there's been 250 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 3: some disagreement over the years about how this bronze weapon 251 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 3: was made. The fact that it is a single piece 252 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 3: of cast bronze, of course, is very important. That gives 253 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 3: it strength for battle. You can imagine if it were 254 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 3: like two halves riveted together or something, it would be 255 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 3: much more likely to split and fail during an impact. 256 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 3: According to the National Maritime Museum, the idea was once 257 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 3: that it was made using the sand casting method with 258 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 3: a hinged mold, but more recently scholars think that it 259 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 3: was likely made using the lost wax method, which is 260 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 3: itself a fascinating process that we could talk about at length. 261 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 3: Sometimes it's probably come up on the podcast before years ago, 262 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 3: but anyway, it's worth looking up videos of how the 263 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 3: lost wax method works. It's very interesting. Especially I found 264 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 3: a cool video of like a small sort of statuette 265 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 3: of a humanoid figure being made with a lost wax method. 266 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 3: In short, it involves making a wax replica of the 267 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 3: final metal item you want and then tightly encasing that 268 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 3: within plaster or clay with these channels running out of 269 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 3: the mold, and then you pour the molten bronze into it. 270 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 3: The wax melts and escapes into voids created for the process, 271 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 3: and so the bronze replaces the wax mold. 272 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: I recall us talking about this a bit in our episode. 273 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: This is from years back on Tallos, the giant Greek automaton, 274 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: because I believe in some tellings there's this idea that 275 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: he has this kind of iCore in his body, and 276 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 1: there are a lot of comparisons to be made between 277 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: this supposed you know, non blood substance running through this 278 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: automaton and this method of casting something. 279 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 3: Oh, very interesting. It's funny that actually connects to So 280 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 3: I mentioned this video watching of making a little bronze 281 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,120 Speaker 3: statuette with the lost wax method. So when they put 282 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 3: these channels in that are you know, the bronze is 283 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 3: poured through and the and the wax escapes through. It 284 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:15,400 Speaker 3: ends up looking like all these sort of veins and 285 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:19,640 Speaker 3: pipes running out of the figure's flesh. You know, you're 286 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 3: making a bronze aphrodite or whatever, and it's just got 287 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:26,439 Speaker 3: these like pipes coming out of its body. So it 288 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 3: looks a very steampunk and suggests some kind of horrific automaton. 289 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 3: But coming back to the athlete ram, of course, a 290 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 3: good question is when and where does this come from. 291 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 3: We have a few data points here. Delgado sites a 292 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 3: date range between two oh four and one sixty four BCE, 293 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 3: and this is based mostly on a collection of symbols 294 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 3: encoded on the bronze ram. So it has these these 295 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 3: designs on its symbols on the surface. What would these be, Well, 296 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 3: according to the National Maritime Museum, they are first of 297 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 3: all Poseidon's trident. Of course, Poseidon was the Greek god 298 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 3: of the sea and of storms and earthquakes, and his 299 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 3: trident was commonly used as a metonym for his powers. 300 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 3: Like the trident is Poseidon's power that has some relationship 301 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 3: to the power of the sea or power over the sea, 302 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 3: so you can see why sailors might include that on 303 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 3: a vessel for a kind of magical protection. Second symbol 304 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 3: is a helmet with a star overhead. It's sort of 305 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 3: a half egg shape of a helmet. It's got a 306 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 3: star over the top of it. Rob, I've got a 307 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 3: close up of this for you to see. Here. This 308 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 3: helmet is apparently a symbol of the Dioscuri, meaning the 309 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 3: sons of Zeus. These are the twins Castor and Pollux, 310 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 3: who were commonly said to wield power over storms at 311 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 3: sea and to give hope to shipwrecked seamen. There's some 312 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 3: version of the story where they have these special horses 313 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 3: given to them by Poseidon the gallop the waves and 314 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 3: allow them to rescue sailors lost at sea. 315 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. In Latin, these are the Genini. 316 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 3: A third symbol is an eagle's head, and the fourth 317 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 3: symbol is the Cadusius. This is the staff of the 318 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 3: god Hermes, which has many meanings. We could probably come 319 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 3: back and have we ever done an episode on the 320 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 3: Cadusius before. 321 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 1: I don't think we have, But yeah, there's a number 322 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 1: of rich traditions behind it. 323 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, it is a mini meaning thing, but one of 324 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 3: the meanings of it was that it was regarded as 325 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 3: sort of the wand of the herald and symbolized diplomatic protections. 326 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: On your nautical ram. 327 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 3: I don't know exactly the best way to interpret it here, 328 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 3: but it might be seen as a kind of general apotropaic, 329 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 3: you know, a general protective symbol. But I don't know, 330 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 3: maybe there's something more specific at work anyway. According to 331 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 3: the National Maritime Museum, this collection of particular symbols means 332 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 3: the ram likely originated on the island of Cyprus between 333 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 3: the dates previously given, because the same collection of symbols 334 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 3: appears on coins minted in Cyprus during this period. So 335 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,400 Speaker 3: if this is correct, the galley probably would have belonged 336 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 3: to the fleet of either Ptolemy the fifth Epiphanes or 337 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:19,680 Speaker 3: Ptolemy the sixth Philometer. However, they also mentioned that radiocarbon 338 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 3: dating of the wood that was initially embedded inside the 339 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 3: bronze ram gave an estimate of four hundred BCE plus 340 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 3: or minus one hundred and thirty years, So the estimate 341 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 3: based the radiocarbon estimate based on the wood is a 342 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 3: little bit older than the estimate based on the symbols. 343 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: By the way, if you're keeping score with your Ptolemies, 344 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: that would be Ptolemy the Glorious and Ptolemy lover of 345 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: his mother. 346 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 3: These would both be coming after the guy who made 347 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,919 Speaker 3: the really big ship. Correct, We're coming back to that 348 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 3: lover of his father. Yeah. Now, multiple sources have also 349 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 3: suggested that this galley was not a trirem. Maybe it was, 350 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,479 Speaker 3: but some say it was more likely a four banked 351 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 3: galley called a tetraris or a quadra reem. But then 352 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:10,920 Speaker 3: Delgado also cites another archaeologist, a scholar named William Murray 353 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 3: into quote Delgado here quote analyzing the symbols and pondering 354 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 3: how the ship came to be lost near Athlete. Murray 355 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,679 Speaker 3: feels it was a smaller warship based on the Levantine 356 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 3: coast that may have been lost in a storm or 357 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 3: during an unrecorded naval skirmish during Dynastics struggles for control 358 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 3: of Phoenicia. But ultimately, we're probably never going to know 359 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 3: with certainty where and when exactly this ram came from 360 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 3: or how the ship that it belonged to was destroyed. 361 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 3: But we've got some good guesses here. 362 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. In one of the books that I was sourcing 363 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,919 Speaker 1: for this series, Lionel case Ses the Ancient Mariners, he 364 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 1: gets into discussing this ram a bit and using it 365 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 1: to talk about using it as a data point to 366 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: try and understand exactly what naval combat consisted of in 367 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: like the age immediately following the dominance of the Trirem, 368 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: which we'll be getting into here in a bit. But 369 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: I guess one thing to keep in mind about all this, 370 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: and I guess this. I mean, this is true of 371 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: any archaeological endeavor, but they're a finite number of data points, 372 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: and a lot of the scholarship it seems to be 373 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: about like connecting all of those lines and trying to 374 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 1: sort of triangulate a probable truth based on it. 375 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 3: But of course, Rob, you mentioned that there was an 376 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,120 Speaker 3: age after the age of Trirem dominance when there when 377 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 3: the ships just kept getting more and more extra. 378 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, this is really fascinating. You're going to see 379 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: the Trirem dominance last for a while, but then the 380 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: designs begin to get bigger, and this is going to 381 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 1: of course change the way combat occurs at sea and 382 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,199 Speaker 1: the way military endeavors in general are carried out in 383 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: the Mediterranean. So basically we're looking at some changes beginning 384 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 1: to take in the fourth century BCE. This would be 385 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 1: the development of fours, fives and polyrems, so Brian Fagan 386 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,879 Speaker 1: and Boris Rhankoff in their section on these ships in 387 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 1: the seventy Great Inventions of the Ancient World, they point 388 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: to Syracuse in Sicily as being the main place where 389 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,199 Speaker 1: this innovation is chiefly cited. The innovation here does not 390 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,919 Speaker 1: entail the addition of a fourth and fifth level to 391 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,399 Speaker 1: a galley, though we talked previously about how it's like 392 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: you start with one level and then the next evolution 393 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 1: is you do two levels, and then you got three levels. 394 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: Well we're not doing that anymore at this point, no 395 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: fourth and fifth levels. Historians have worked this out over time. Instead, 396 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,199 Speaker 1: what it constitutes is more men to each or. 397 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:52,399 Speaker 3: So you could still add additional rows of oarsmen, but 398 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 3: they're just not each getting their own or right. 399 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,479 Speaker 1: And to be clear, this was not necessarily just a 400 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 1: matter of cramming in extra guys, as we discussed, the 401 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: tryream was already crammed essentially all human engine lionel case 402 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: and in the Ancient Mariners does state that the initial 403 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 1: Greek updates would have still been the same size as 404 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: tryrems with an extra rower to each or on the 405 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: upper levels. So there's not much you could do basically 406 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: down in the hole of the ship, but they did 407 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 1: find a way to squeeze in more people up top. 408 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 3: Now we've talked about how these boats really did not 409 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 3: have a lot of room for cargo. They were not 410 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 3: meant to be, you know, the vessels to stay at sea. 411 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 3: They were sort of out for the day, but had 412 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 3: to come ashore at night to resupply and allow the 413 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,719 Speaker 3: crew to rest. But I was just thinking about, like, 414 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 3: you have that many people working that hard in the heat, 415 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 3: you know, operating sort of at the limits of human exertion, 416 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 3: and you would have to get water to them somehow. 417 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 3: So also I'm imagining that, you know, fresh water has 418 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,119 Speaker 3: to be stored aboard so that these people can drink 419 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 3: while they're exerting themselves like this. So so like that's 420 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:04,959 Speaker 3: another consideration. 421 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Like by adding more people to these ships, 422 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: you are creating more problems. You're you're taking pre existing 423 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 1: problems and making them worse again. Up so far we've 424 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 1: been talking about skilled oarsmen as well. These are not 425 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 1: disposable resources. In some sort of a scenario where these 426 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 1: are like you know, captives that have been taken by 427 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 1: the war, they're not seen as disposable by the people 428 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: utilizing them. They are seen as skilled labor that you 429 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:37,640 Speaker 1: have to manage and hold on to. And we see 430 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 1: this skewed a little bit with some advancements, So Fagan 431 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 1: and Rancoff point out, we get the quin Creams, which 432 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 1: were still three level vessels, but with two men to 433 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: an ore on the top level, two to an ore 434 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,439 Speaker 1: in the middle, and then one to an ore on 435 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 1: that bottom level. Again you know more or less down 436 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: in the hole where you can't expand too much, so 437 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: this would have meant a rowing crew of roughly three 438 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: hundred people. And of course all this comes, all this 439 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: power comes at a trade off. Well, obviously again you 440 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,679 Speaker 1: have to take care of these human beings that are 441 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 1: powering your vessel, if for no other reason out of 442 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,199 Speaker 1: self interest, because they are what makes the ship. They 443 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: are what makes the ship move. But also by souping 444 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: up the vessel like this, it wouldn't have actually been 445 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 1: as fast as the Trirem, but the additional power enabled 446 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 1: these ships to carry more troops as well as ultimately 447 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 1: the latest catapult technology. Hum. 448 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 3: Okay, so you're adding more people unless you're adding more weight, 449 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 3: and thus the ship becomes less nimble and maneuverable and 450 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 3: speedy in battle. But you're increasing it's carrying capacity. 451 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 1: Right, and this change wouldn't have happened all at once. 452 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 1: Cason mentions that if we look at Greek shipyard records 453 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: in the fourth century, they indicate that the Greeks probably 454 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,439 Speaker 1: were not worried about these advancements that were going on 455 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: in Syracuse and shipyards. They probably kept a close eye 456 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: on such developments, but the Greek fleet of trirems was 457 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 1: still dominant in the east was and they were mostly 458 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 1: distracted by matters in the west. Still, more and more 459 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: larger ships were built and were ultimately incorporated into that 460 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 1: fleet as time passed, So we're getting bigger vessels, and 461 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 1: you know, the age of the trirem of Trirem dominance 462 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 1: is kind of fading out. And Fagan and Rinkoff indicate 463 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: that these new ships impacted how warfare at sea was conducted, 464 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,680 Speaker 1: and that quote boarding tactics gradually came to be used 465 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 1: alongside and even instead of ramming. So ramming doesn't go away, 466 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: but it's kind of like everything became very ramming intensive, 467 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,160 Speaker 1: and then things kind of began to diversify a little 468 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 1: bit with these bigger ships. 469 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 3: Oh, Okay, So the earlier naval warfare warfare tactics we 470 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,360 Speaker 3: talked about were more based on boarding. Then ramming became dominant, 471 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 3: then boarding becomes more important yet again right. 472 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: Right, And so the Syracusans developed three level sixes or hexories, 473 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: and and the Carthaginians developed two level fours or quadrigrims. 474 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,159 Speaker 1: And this growth trend continued from the end of the 475 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 1: fourth century BCE onward, while some cities continue to prioritize 476 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: trirems or other smaller ord vessels for rating, because I remember, 477 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 1: in a rating scenario, you're gonna you're gonna want that flexibility, 478 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 1: You're gonna want the speed, and so forth. But the 479 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: major players in the Mediterranean all seemed to double down 480 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:31,919 Speaker 1: on massive galleys sevens, eights, nines, and tens, And this 481 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: of course required increasing number of oarsmen, but allowed the 482 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: transport of more troops, more artillery, and siege equipment like 483 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: towers and some of the biggest chunkers in this uh 484 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: in this area, they point out, were reportedly built to 485 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 1: besiege coastal city walls. So I guess you could almost 486 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 1: think of these as like a full mobile aquatic siege craft. 487 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 1: You know uh. And also sometimes you would utilize a 488 00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: big vessel like this to break through harbor chains. 489 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 3: A harbor chain, is that like a defensive measure that 490 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 3: would be used in a harbor. 491 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 1: Yes, this would be a navigational barrier. 492 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, okay. 493 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 1: Now. Casin writes that you would have had multiple options 494 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: to upsize your fleet during this growth period. You could 495 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: augment existing try reams as we've been discussing to create 496 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: these new polyrems, or you could build bigger from the 497 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: bottom up. And different powers had different capacities for these changes. 498 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: One major factor was apparently the dwindling supply of skilled rowers. Again, 499 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:32,959 Speaker 1: you've got human power at the heart of this, and 500 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: they were increasingly in short supply and would become rather difficult. 501 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 1: For example, the Romans later on to source. So ships 502 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: were getting bigger, navies were getting bigger, but you still 503 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: needed someone to row these things. 504 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 3: Not just someone, you needed lots of people to row 505 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 3: these things. And it was hard work. 506 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 1: That's right, And they somehow managed to make it harder 507 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: in some cases, according to case and many of these 508 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: larger designs called for a deeper rowing style. They were 509 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: the rower to stand up to dip the blade and 510 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 1: then throw themselves back to pull it, so it became 511 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: even more physically demanding in these cases. But it also 512 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: apparently meant that only the man at the tip of 513 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 1: the loom needed to be skilled, so the inner oarsmen 514 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: in such a setup they could be just muscle power 515 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: following his lead. And if a power one of these 516 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: naval powers lacked for skilled oarsmen, they could potentially double 517 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: down on these new designs. So you could, yeah, we 518 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 1: only have so many skilled oarsmen to utilize, Okay, well, 519 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: we can focus on spreading them around around on these 520 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 1: ships and then depend on just unskilled brute force labor 521 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 1: to help them, and these would become the standard long 522 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 1: sweep galleys with multiple rowers that would apparently become the 523 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 1: standard in the into the sixteenth and eighteenth century CE. 524 00:30:54,200 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: In the mediterrane Now, Casein points out that this arms 525 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: race what he calls the Age of Titans. This corresponds 526 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: with the death of Alexander the Great three twenty three 527 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 1: BCE and the shattering of his vast empire into competing states, 528 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: including as we discussed in the first episode, Talemaic Egypt. 529 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 1: And my understanding is that this growth period wasn't just 530 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 1: about growing out of and away from the Triream, but 531 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: also a kind of flexibility in the sorts of ships 532 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: that a navy might build and use. So the age 533 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 1: of the Trirem was one of a kind of bottleneck perfection. Again, 534 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: they think of him as kind of like jet fighters 535 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 1: and with just as much expense and skill tied up 536 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: in their use. And now we're dealing with an age 537 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 1: where ship production in naval size is only going up, 538 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: and of course something has to give, and it eventually does. 539 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,479 Speaker 1: But the arms race of the Titans continued, and the 540 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 1: culmination of this arms race was, of course a vessel 541 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: we kicked off with in episode one, the massive Tessaranka 542 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 1: terraces the forty of Ptolemy the Fourth. So, just to refresh, 543 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: the Tessaranka terras was the massive war vessel of Ptolemy 544 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 1: the fourth Philopater, lover of his father. His rule lasted 545 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 1: from two twenty one to two oh four BCE. 546 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 3: Now, the last time this came up, you mentioned the 547 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 3: opinion of historians and various experts that this this was 548 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 3: likely more of a showboat than a functional war boat. 549 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we definitely see that. One of the two 550 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 1: main historical accounts, and even this is you know, centuries 551 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: after the boat would have existed, but Plutarch chimed in 552 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 1: and was like this thing was more for show than anything. 553 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: It would have been dangerous to use. And it's largely 554 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: argue that like this is exactly the sort of ship 555 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 1: that Tallomy the fourth would have because he had this 556 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: reputation as being more concerned with the trappings of empire 557 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 1: than the work of empire. You know, this was seen 558 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: as a period of decline for the Ptolemys. So getting 559 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 1: back into this question, is is this, in fact just 560 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: a huge spruce goose on the sea? Is this just 561 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 1: a complete illogical vessel that with the only possible purpose 562 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: being a show of might to say, look at us, Well, 563 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 1: it's basically a big floating parade float for the military. 564 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: Or is it something that had some degree of function. 565 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: So looking at what Cason has to say about it, 566 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: he does follow the basic logic that the Tesla Ranka 567 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 1: Terras was either a king's plaything or a misguided experiment. 568 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: You know, how big of a war boat can we make? 569 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 1: But he stresses that the mere concept of a massive, 570 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: twin holed catamaran war vessel, because that's what it was. 571 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: It was like a twin holed catamaran, big flat top, 572 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 1: kind of like an aircraft carrier for the ancient world, 573 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: the ancient Mediterranean. This mere concept wasn't out It didn't 574 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: come out of it out of nowhere. He speculates that 575 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: tallowing me the fourth's grandfather tlloing me the second, so 576 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 1: we know that he had a pair of thirties and 577 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 1: these may have also been twin holed catamaran vessels. And 578 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 1: he cites another likely twin holed galley one built by 579 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:17,800 Speaker 1: another Alexander successor, and that's Lisimachus, king of Thrace. Cason 580 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 1: writes that these, he calls him super dreadnoughts, would have 581 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 1: been the flag flying command vessel of the large navies 582 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 1: in the days of the Ptolemys. One of Ptolemy the 583 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,919 Speaker 1: first chief rivals, by the way, was Antigonus, the One Eyed, 584 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: who ruled over Macedonia, and his son Demetrius, the first 585 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:43,359 Speaker 1: Poliocets besieger of cities, was in many ways the instigator 586 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 1: of this super galley arms race between post Alexander states, 587 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 1: as his name implies, Demetrius was heavy into siege craft. 588 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 1: He was a total nerd for siege engines, and so 589 00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,319 Speaker 1: he was really into the idea of mounting them on 590 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 1: galleys as well. And the emphasis curiously here seems to 591 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 1: have been not just about like bringing siege equipment to 592 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 1: a destination to lay out a siege, but also unship 593 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 1: to ship warfare and anyway. Yeah, so you would actually 594 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 1: have these ships firing at each other, needing to carry 595 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 1: the weight of these catapults and these towers. You know, 596 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 1: so you can have you know, the height advantage, but 597 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 1: potentially and you would need bigger ships with presumably wider 598 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: decks to make this possible. M and so the twin 599 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 1: holed catamaran design would be what they ended up exploiting. 600 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:40,240 Speaker 1: Like you can how wide can you conceivably make the whole? Well, okay, 601 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 1: you can do, I guess conceive when we make it 602 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 1: this wide. Or you could just have two holes and 603 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 1: you could have a deck covering both of them. Everyone 604 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 1: knows what a camaran is, I assume if if not, 605 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: go out to your local lake and look for the 606 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 1: lounge craft of sort of the pontoon boats, and you 607 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 1: get the basic idea. 608 00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, two holes in the water situated in parallel, 609 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 3: and there's some kind of decks spanning between them. 610 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 1: So Kison has this wonderful paragraph I want to read 611 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 1: where he talks about what these encounters might have been like. 612 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:17,760 Speaker 1: He writes, artillery and bigger ships naturally had their effect 613 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 1: on naval tactics, and sea battles were different in this 614 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: age from what they had been a century earlier. They 615 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 1: still took place near shore. A super galley was even 616 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 1: harder to keep at sea than a trirem, but a 617 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 1: fight now opened with a heavy barrage from catapults and bowmen. 618 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:37,759 Speaker 1: Lighter craft, trirems and quadrarine still maneuvered for position and 619 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 1: the chance for an effective blow with the ram, but 620 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 1: larger units, all of which had massive reinforced snouts, were 621 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 1: not afraid to meet each other prow to prow, and 622 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,719 Speaker 1: this often resulted in close packed meles in which the 623 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 1: marines on the decks hurling javelins are thrusting with special 624 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,839 Speaker 1: long spears decided the issue To aid in the sort 625 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,280 Speaker 1: of fighting, turrets were added to the ship's armament. These 626 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 1: were movable, wooden affairs that could be quickly set up 627 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 1: at bow and stern when a vessel went into action. 628 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: And their height gave sharpshooters a chance to fire down 629 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 1: on the enemy's decks. 630 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,959 Speaker 3: It is crazy trying to picture this. Has this ever 631 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 3: been depicted in a movie? 632 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 1: I mean, it sounds like it would be quite a 633 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,799 Speaker 1: spectacle to try and pull this off, right. You'd you'd 634 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 1: kind of have to build these vessels, right, or at 635 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:28,600 Speaker 1: least you would have in sort of like the Golden 636 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,640 Speaker 1: Ages centem. I guess you could. You could do it, obviously, 637 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 1: you could do it differently with CGI now. I guess 638 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 1: you could make use of models. But I don't know 639 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: that I've ever seen a film that really captures this idea. 640 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 1: Like we talked about how we had battles at sea 641 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 1: essentially being like battles on land, except on boats, and 642 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:50,240 Speaker 1: then we get into the age of sort of dog 643 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,239 Speaker 1: fighting trirems, and now we're kind of back to an 644 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:57,040 Speaker 1: even to a combination of both, but an even more 645 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,840 Speaker 1: like exaggerated feeling of some sort of a land battle 646 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,360 Speaker 1: happening out on the water with towers and so forth. 647 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, except you can't run away, can you. 648 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, So of course this was all terribly expensive, obviously, 649 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 1: And coming back to ptolomy, the fourth monstrosity. Again, Cason 650 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 1: seems to hold to the idea that the Tessaranka Terrace 651 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: was either all for show or a failed project, but 652 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 1: he stresses that it's mostly only through descriptions of it 653 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,640 Speaker 1: that we can make in any informed hypotheses about the 654 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 1: form of the other super galleys that preceded it. So 655 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,440 Speaker 1: I suppose one could imagine possible examples of this from 656 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 1: far more recent history, like what if you only had 657 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 1: the Spruce Goose to try and understand what functional airplanes 658 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 1: looked like in the years leading up to it, that 659 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:47,040 Speaker 1: sort of thing. But I think this is also interesting 660 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 1: because it kind of potentially puts the Tessaronka Terrace in context. 661 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 1: Like it's not like an outrageous design perhaps that comes 662 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 1: out of nowhere, but like the grotesque leveling up of 663 00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:01,880 Speaker 1: a design that was already functional. 664 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:03,799 Speaker 3: Oh okay, that makes sense. 665 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,760 Speaker 1: Now, I'm in the first episode I mentioned another source. 666 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 1: The Tessaronka Terris reconsidered by Christopher E. Choffin This is 667 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,880 Speaker 1: from the Bulletin of the Institute of Classical Studies in 668 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,400 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three. He follows up on a lot of 669 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:21,920 Speaker 1: the ideas explored by Case and cites his scholarship the 670 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,040 Speaker 1: idea that it was a continuation of a design that 671 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,840 Speaker 1: was employed to provide stability for larger payloads and or catapults. 672 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: He stresses, however, that we don't really have much that 673 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 1: is comparable to it. So catamarans have been used and 674 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,879 Speaker 1: are still used around the world, but not giant war 675 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:41,760 Speaker 1: galleys like this. And again, even though we have reconstructed 676 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 1: a hypothetical trirem, nobody has attempted to, as far as 677 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: I know, to reconstruct the Tessaronka Terras. It's just too big. 678 00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 1: And obviously I think you can make a strong case 679 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 1: that the efforts involved would be more useful elsewhere in 680 00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:01,960 Speaker 1: the pursuit of our understanding of ancient nautical engineering and practices. 681 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 1: But he stresses that, Okay, the ship was clearly very 682 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,200 Speaker 1: expensive and it would have required a lot of skilled 683 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:11,279 Speaker 1: labor to operate. So but we might see it as 684 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:15,120 Speaker 1: a practical warship in addition to a flagship to celebrate 685 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,760 Speaker 1: or insist upon the naval might of Ptolemy the Fourth, 686 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,680 Speaker 1: but one still at the very edge of what was 687 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 1: deemed effective and necessary in a time of almost delirious 688 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 1: competition over ship size, and it would certainly become a 689 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,400 Speaker 1: white elephant, he says, during the following age of decline. 690 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 1: So I don't know. I feel like, obviously I'm no 691 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,319 Speaker 1: expert on this, and I bow to the experts who 692 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:40,680 Speaker 1: have written on this topic over the years and continue 693 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,240 Speaker 1: to write about it. So I don't know if Chafin 694 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,960 Speaker 1: is pushing too far into the possibility that it was 695 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,719 Speaker 1: a practical warship. I do still like the idea of 696 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,319 Speaker 1: seeing it not as this grotesque monster that comes out 697 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:56,239 Speaker 1: of nowhere, but it is the final known extension of 698 00:40:56,280 --> 00:41:00,320 Speaker 1: a technological evolution that favored super galleys for a while. 699 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,840 Speaker 1: And you know, this is kind of like the evolutionary 700 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:08,400 Speaker 1: dead end for that particular growth pattern. Yeah. Now, I 701 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:10,680 Speaker 1: want to touch briefly on sort of like the end 702 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,800 Speaker 1: of the age of the galley. And again we're dealing 703 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,040 Speaker 1: with ultimately a long trajectory of history here, and you 704 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:22,680 Speaker 1: see various things survive and so forth. But Fagan and 705 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:26,320 Speaker 1: Rankoff stress that by the latter part of the second 706 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,600 Speaker 1: century BCE, the age of the polyren was over. So 707 00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:33,399 Speaker 1: Rome's first major fleet, constructed during the First Punic War 708 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:37,360 Speaker 1: that's against the Carthage, was based largely on copying wreckage 709 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 1: of a Carthaginian five, and they also use some larger ships, 710 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,239 Speaker 1: but mainly depended on fives. They write that by the 711 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 1: first century CE, the quote mostly unemployed imperial fleet consisted 712 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 1: of fives, fours, and threes, and even smaller two level 713 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,799 Speaker 1: vessels and the bigger vessels well. Based on descriptions, the 714 00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:01,319 Speaker 1: bigger vessels depended on a single level of above the deck, 715 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,239 Speaker 1: and it seems that in time the secret of the 716 00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 1: trirem and other three level ships which is simply lost. 717 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,200 Speaker 1: The last report of trirems being used occurs during the 718 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,359 Speaker 1: Roman Civil War of three twenty four CE, and by 719 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:18,360 Speaker 1: the fifth century CE, Greek historian Zalesamus tells us that 720 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,440 Speaker 1: the art of building them was just truly lost, so 721 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:25,960 Speaker 1: nobody knew how to build a trirem anymore. We seemingly 722 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,440 Speaker 1: we didn't have any examples of them in full anymore, 723 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:35,080 Speaker 1: and it's left for as an enduring mystery for centuries 724 00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,040 Speaker 1: and centuries to come. But I guess one of the 725 00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:39,080 Speaker 1: crazy parts about all of this is that we could 726 00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,720 Speaker 1: conceivably change at any moment. I mean, people continue to 727 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:47,800 Speaker 1: keep a lookout for this sort of thing. Marine maritime 728 00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:53,400 Speaker 1: archaeology has had tremendous technological strides over the years and 729 00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,920 Speaker 1: even in recent years, so it's not impossible that we 730 00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,960 Speaker 1: will find more evidence of trirems. Have just some new 731 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:05,000 Speaker 1: evidence to introduce into that limited data set to try 732 00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:07,600 Speaker 1: and figure out exactly what everything consisted of. 733 00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:11,399 Speaker 3: I hope we do. I mean, reading about these hypothetical 734 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,440 Speaker 3: reconstructions is really interesting. I would love to ride in 735 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:14,960 Speaker 3: one of them. 736 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,080 Speaker 1: Ride or you're gonna You're gonna be down below. 737 00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:20,960 Speaker 3: Not a lot of room for riders. I guess you 738 00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:23,480 Speaker 3: gotta help, right, Yeah, so yeah, I'd do some. 739 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,080 Speaker 1: Rowing, yeah, or some drumming. I guess somebody needs to 740 00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:27,839 Speaker 1: beat the trump. Yeah. 741 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:29,680 Speaker 3: I'm more of a navigator myself. 742 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:35,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. So we'll have to get into this in some 743 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,600 Speaker 1: listener mail, but we have already heard from some people 744 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:41,520 Speaker 1: with rowing experience, and so if we have other oars 745 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,000 Speaker 1: menality there that would like to chime in on any 746 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:46,279 Speaker 1: of this, we'd love to hear from you. And I mean, 747 00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:51,080 Speaker 1: certainly if you've ever actually been aboard the one reconstruction 748 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:53,959 Speaker 1: that we have of a tr ring and help power, 749 00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:57,879 Speaker 1: that would be great. I feel like that's slim possibility, 750 00:43:57,920 --> 00:43:59,800 Speaker 1: but just in case putting the call out there for 751 00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:05,880 Speaker 1: them also write in with any examples of trirem warfare 752 00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:11,440 Speaker 1: in games, in films and so forth. I was looking around, 753 00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:15,319 Speaker 1: and I should have thought of this earlier, but some 754 00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:19,799 Speaker 1: of the warships space vessels in Warhammer forty thousand have 755 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,920 Speaker 1: this kind of ram looking structure on the bottom up 756 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:25,400 Speaker 1: and the like. They clearly kind of pattern the design 757 00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,640 Speaker 1: a little bit after trirems, and not unsurprisingly, it looks 758 00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,319 Speaker 1: like there are rules for these ships ramming each other 759 00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,440 Speaker 1: in like the old Battlefleet, Gothic game and so forth. 760 00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:36,720 Speaker 1: So that would make sense when you have a game. 761 00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:36,799 Speaker 3: That is. 762 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:40,600 Speaker 1: Set in a far future, but a lot of it 763 00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:44,160 Speaker 1: is sort of patterned after medieval and or ancient warfare. 764 00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:47,160 Speaker 1: And we did have a listener writing with some Star 765 00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:49,319 Speaker 1: Trek examples, but we'll have to save that for the 766 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,719 Speaker 1: listener mail. All right, Well, this has been fun. Just 767 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,120 Speaker 1: a reminder to everyone out there that Stuff to Blow 768 00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:57,520 Speaker 1: Your Mind is primarily a science and culture podcast, Core 769 00:44:57,520 --> 00:44:59,960 Speaker 1: episodes in Tuesdays and Thursday short form episode on WIN 770 00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:03,080 Speaker 1: and then on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns 771 00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:05,880 Speaker 1: to just talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. 772 00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:09,280 Speaker 3: Huge Things, As always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 773 00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:11,239 Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us 774 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:13,880 Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 775 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:15,839 Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 776 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,600 Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 777 00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:27,280 Speaker 3: your Mind dot com. 778 00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:30,319 Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 779 00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:34,239 Speaker 2: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 780 00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:50,319 Speaker 2: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.