WEBVTT - Point of Care Tests for Airline Passengers 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:03.720 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:06.320 Jason Kelly. We're right here every day bringing you the 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:11.160 latest news from the world's of business and finance, plus technology, politics, economics, 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:14.280 all harnessing the power of Business Week reporters and editors, 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.439 and of course Carol that's part of a team of 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:20.439 twenty seven hundred journalists and analysts more than a hundred 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:23.280 and twenty countries and Jason. You can download Bloomberg Business 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:26.239 Week on iTunes, SoundCloud, al Bloomberg dot com. You can 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:28.640 also listen to our radio show at two pm Eastern 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:31.560 on Bloomberg Radio every weekday, or watch us on YouTube 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:36.200 by searching Bloomberg Global News. Well, let's do our Friday 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:39.640 check in with Dr Ian Lesbian, Clinical Associate Professor of 0:00:39.640 --> 0:00:42.280 Medicine over at n y U s Lango On Medical Center, 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:44.960 joining us as he does on the phone from New 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:49.519 York City. So you know, it's interesting, Ian, because I 0:00:49.560 --> 0:00:53.159 feel like every day, maybe not quite as much as you, 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:57.000 but every day Carol and I, individually and together having 0:00:57.040 --> 0:01:00.639 conversations with people about the virus, how it's playing through society, 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:03.400 how it's playing through schools, work from home, work from 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:08.000 the office. All of those things progress with vaccines, we 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:10.120 look to you to separate the signal from the noise. 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:12.520 As they say, what's the most important thing you heard 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:15.440 this week when it comes to the virus? Hi guys, 0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:19.920 Happy Friday, Shnatava to some of our listeners and hopefully 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:23.440 all all as well with with you folks. No no 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:28.399 monkeys here, No, unfortunately in the office, maybe there are 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:31.319 a few high Is that crazy? Come on, we are 0:01:31.360 --> 0:01:34.399 about traffic stuff, you know. I don't think I've ever 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:38.160 heard that. Don't try this at home. It's only for professionals. 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:43.039 I agree. So, UM, you know, always interesting news on 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:47.279 on COVID and UM. I think the most interesting story 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:51.520 that I heard this week was about some airlines testing 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:56.720 point of care, which is a saliva test. And today 0:01:56.800 --> 0:02:01.480 just had a patient from one of universities and they're 0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:04.000 all all the professors and and many of the students 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:07.480 are getting these saliva tests before returning to class, which 0:02:07.520 --> 0:02:09.320 makes a lot of sense. And what the airlines are 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:12.920 doing or some of them is testing, um, the travelers 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:17.000 before they get on at these point of care uh 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:20.160 departures tests you know that come back in in a 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:24.360 few minutes and I think that's very reassuring to other 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:29.519 travelers that everyone is negative before they get on board 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:32.520 for a nine or ten or eleven hour flight. And 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:35.520 it's similar to what we do at the hospital before 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:39.880 procedure surgeries pulmonary functions as struss tests. We do something 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:42.600 more invasive than nasal swab, but and that turns around 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:45.239 in twenty four hours. So I think what we're trying 0:02:45.280 --> 0:02:48.440 to do is to reassure people that the other people 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:51.280 there with are safe. And I think that that's an 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:54.160 interesting development. Why aren't we all Why are they just 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:56.560 using saliva tests all the time. It sounds like if 0:02:56.600 --> 0:03:02.919 they're it's easier, it's quicker, is it as UM you know? UM, 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:08.240 it's fairly accurate, accurate activity and specificity is fairly accurate UM, 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:10.480 And I think as data you know comes through it 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:14.919 it's looking similar to the nasal swabs. The PCR tests, 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:18.360 they're they're different tests. One is an antigen test, the 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:23.120 other UM is a polymerized chain reaction or PCR that 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:26.640 amplifies the amount. Now there can be false positives and 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:29.799 false negatives. We certainly can see some people who have 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:32.800 had COVID who have recovered and when you do their 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:37.520 nasal swab, their PCR test is positive. It's not active virus, 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:42.200 but the the RNA is still there magnified. So sometimes 0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:45.280 you can get, you know, data that's really not helpful. 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:48.760 But this point of care or the anergen or saliva test, 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:51.960 I agree with you should really be done more widespread, 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:54.720 and I think that would reassure people. We're seeing that 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:57.520 in schools and colleges. Many of the kids now we're 0:03:57.520 --> 0:04:00.320 getting a once or twice a week, even us alive 0:04:00.360 --> 0:04:03.320 a test, and this way you can identify in an 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:07.280 early case and kind of isolate that group or that floor. 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:09.720 I mean, could we have a setup and you know, 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:12.680 we're basically like before Jason and I went to work, 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:14.600 like you just quick did that and then once it's 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:16.320 okay you can go into the office. I mean, do 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:18.120 we have enough of those tests? Can we can we 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:21.800 operate like that? I think that would be the goal. 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:25.680 And I think we need to sort of step away 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:28.600 from you know, sort of the you know, political or 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:32.279 demonstrations and cops and all of that and focus some 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:36.640 resources on getting a lot of those point of tear tests, 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:40.400 because I think many offices and businesses can really reopen 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:43.960 in schools. Can we're comfortably reopen if we do that 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:48.320 on a periodic basis. You know, obviously there's some cost involved, 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:51.159 but I think if we can ramp that up, people 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:54.039 would until the vaccine arrives, and we do think that's 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:57.000 probably January February, and you know, again that's going to 0:04:57.000 --> 0:04:59.320 be stage. We can talk about that, but I think 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:04.039 until that comes around, these point of care tests makes sense. 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:06.360 And I'm glad the airlines are doing that, and I 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:09.679 certainly me getting on a plane, I would I'm happy 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:11.679 to do it and I feel happy. Or if everyone 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:15.839 on board is also negative, Yeah, yeah, I agree with 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:20.800 that for sure. I mean I do wonder Ian. You know, 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:24.080 as we think about going back to school and what 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:27.120 we've learned so far from both the colleges and from 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:30.719 the secondary schools, it's uneven when it comes to learning. 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:33.359 Let's set that aside for a second. But as you've 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:36.840 monitored the various sort of outbreaks in college towns and 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:41.640 things like that, what do you take away from that. Well, 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:46.840 we do have some data that, um, there's a big 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:51.240 increase in COVID in young people in their twenties, UM, 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:54.920 and really the demographics UH in Europe and elsewhere have 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:58.080 have shifted from the sick people and more people at 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:02.080 an older age to now bigger reservoir in younger people, 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:06.000 probably due to you know, less social distancing and masks 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:09.400 and socializing and that sort of thing. You know. The 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:13.200 good news for them is that they really do tend 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:15.679 to do a lot better. There are really very few 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:20.440 young children who have been severely affected by this. Of 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:24.120 the two hundred thousand you know dead, we're talking you know, 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:29.640 perhaps a hundred kids affected, So it's it seems to 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:34.600 be much better tolerated. Unfortunately, they have fewer symptoms and 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:38.240 can infect older people who are more vulnerable. That's the 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:41.279 rationale for more testing of this sort of point of 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:44.160 care testing where where you don't have to sit down 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:46.920 and have a nurse stick of swab down your UH 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:50.040 in your nose. So Dr los Bader, let me ask 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:52.159 you about it. Is truly our most read story on 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:54.839 the Bloomberg in the past eight hours. This is what 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:57.960 folks have been reading, and it talks about UM the 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:01.760 loss of an immune function for some UH COVID niteen patients. 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:04.360 And they're talking about the lack of a of a 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:08.039 substance called interference that apparently, I guess helps orchestrate the 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:11.880 body's defense against viral pathogen. So talk to me a 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:13.960 little bit about this, like how significant is this and 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:16.160 what might this mean in terms of treating patients that 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:19.080 come down with the virus. You know, I think has 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:25.200 potentially very positive news. You know, interference are a normal 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:31.840 uh mammal cell response to infections, typically viral infections, And 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:35.440 we've known about it for decades and we've used interference 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:39.280 for a variety of diseases, including hepatitis B and hepatitis C. 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:43.280 We have much more effective anti virals and interference are 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:47.080 used for a variety of other kinds of autoimmune and 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:51.120 immunologic diseases, and we certainly know that that they have 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:56.200 anti viral properties prevent viral replication. And for most people 0:07:56.240 --> 0:07:58.560 who have the flu, that kind of fever and muscle 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:01.920 aches that you feel are really related. You know, it's 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:04.920 it's in a good way to interfere in response. It's 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:07.960 the body's natural response, and it does work in a 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:10.760 variety of ways, and there are many different kinds of 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:13.840 interfere on um and so it makes sense that interferon 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:18.200 might be helpful with with this virus. You know, widespread 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:22.240 studies should be done. Generally, it's a safe medication and 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:25.760 certainly may be helpful as part of a cocktail of 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:29.920 perhaps including M deservere or steroids. And you know, we 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:33.000 have yet to figure out sort of the ideal treatment 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:37.680 early on to reduce the depths and uh, you know, 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:40.360 identify that subset of patients. But I think it's very 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:45.040 encouraging and very exciting. Uh is certainly not standard therapy 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:48.440 at this point, but certainly studies should be done while 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:51.640 we're waiting for vaccines and more definitive therapy. And I 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:53.880 think it makes a lot of sense. I do. I 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:59.400 say this argues for having um an electronic record, a 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:03.960 national universal health care record, because part of the problem 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:07.160 is gathering all of this data, whether it's reporting data. 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:11.079 You have all of these smaller systems, and it takes 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:14.000 time for the government to gather the data. Had we 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:18.120 had one universal health care system, you'd be able to 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:20.480 get this data. You'd be able to do studies more 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:24.000 easily and really be more on top of the information. 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:26.760 Obviously there's some you know, we have to be careful 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:29.959 with security and so forth, but uh, that's a bit 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:33.360 of a tangent. It's my plug for us thinking about 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:37.920 a universal health care record. But certainly something like um 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:42.240 interfer on really does have potential, but it has to 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:44.400 be studied in this subset. We know it works in 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:48.960 many viruses, how well will it work for for this virus? 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:53.400 Stars Covie too, We have to see. You know, one 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:56.400 thing Ian I was thinking about when we were talking 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:58.520 about the rapid testing that I wanted to go back to. 0:09:59.000 --> 0:10:01.160 I read something in and I think we treat you 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:04.520 as a little bit of a MythBuster, as we said, 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:07.280 you're you're a go to guy. I've read a couple 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:11.920 of them. Uh yeah, yeah, you could wear like one 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:15.800 of those berets, um I do. I have read a 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:18.120 couple of things that basically say, you know what, taking 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:20.160 your temperature before you go to school or go into 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:23.760 the office, like that's kind of I mean, it works 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:27.000 to an extent, but really, isn't that great an indicator? 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:30.120 What do you make of that? I agree completely. You 0:10:30.200 --> 0:10:32.960 know a lot of what we do in life makes 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:37.120 us feel better but doesn't really make a difference. Um. So, 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:41.160 certainly people could take thailand old before they go to school, 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:44.679 or they may have a very low grade temperature or 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:48.720 they it is one kist. It's it is the easiest 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:52.360 thing to do to squeeze a thermometer, you know, a 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:55.360 remote thermometer as someone as they come in. And certainly 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:58.920 if someone has a high fever, look you would you 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:02.240 don't want them coming in. But it certainly doesn't mean 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:05.280 that someone who doesn't have a fever can't have the 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:09.800 virus and can't communicate it with someone else. So it's 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:12.559 sort of the floor. The very basic thing that you 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:15.679 can do before people either go into a classroom or 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:19.920 to an office building or get on an airplane would 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:22.199 be to check their temperature. And certainly if they have 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:25.480 a fever, look that they have tuberculosis, Could they have 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:28.320 some other issue? Could they just have the common cold? Yes, 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:33.120 So it's a very non specific and it's helpful, but 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:37.000 it certainly is not going to pick up everyone who 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:39.520 comes in. I think it makes people feel better, see 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:44.000 we're doing something to screen to make it a safer environment. 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:48.719 But it is certainly Uh, it's one element, and I 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:50.719 don't think too much weight should be put on it, 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:52.800 but I do think it does Like Jason, you said, 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:54.920 didn't you at one point didn't feel well or something 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:57.679 you stayed home or right. I do think it makes 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:00.400 it makes me think twice, like totally if I'm not 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:03.040 feeling well, because I know there's that check whether or 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:05.160 not it's it's great. It makes me think a little 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:07.920 bit about what, you know, kind of. I think we're 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:10.679 all more sensitive as to how we're failing when we 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:13.400 wake up every morning just to think about what we're 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:15.640 going to do that day, and maybe ultimately that is 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:18.880 a it is a positive thing that we can take 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:20.839 from this Lustige are always good to catch up with 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:26.160 You always enjoyed our MythBuster. I really enjoyed catching up 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:29.000 with him all right. He is associate clinical professor at 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:34.559 n y use Langgoon Medical Center. Thank you. This is 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:38.439 Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Jason Kelly on 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:43.760 Bloomberg Radio, the Equality issue of Bloomberg Business Week Magazine, 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:47.839 pairing with the Bloomberger Quality Summit. So we've been talking 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:50.800 about a lot of things that have been that have 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:54.679 really come to the four Carol in these past few months. 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:57.680 These dueling pandemics we've often called them, we and others 0:12:57.720 --> 0:13:00.520 have called them. So let's talk about it's happening in 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:04.079 one specific city. Susan Burfield is here with his projects 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:07.079 and investigations reporter for Bloomberg Business Week. She's on the 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:09.800 phone also joining us Joel Webber, the editor of Bloomberg 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:12.839 Business Week. He joins us from Massachusetts. Uh, Joel t 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:16.000 this up for us. This is a fascinating story. Yeah. 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:20.040 And when that Susan flagged to us a few months 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:22.040 ago now and just said, Hey, this is one that 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:24.439 we've got to find a way to do and that 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:27.240 it makes so much sense in the quality issue. And 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:30.280 this is a story about the city of Stockton, which 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:36.559 America has not been known for basic income. That is 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:40.959 an idea that has been used a lot and had 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:45.200 it continues to be used uh in in in other 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:50.880 international UM countries, in particular Finland had a huge experiment 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:56.400 with universal basic income UM. Stockton has emerged as as 0:13:56.480 --> 0:13:59.719 the first place in decades that that is flirting with 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:04.120 US in America. And it couldn't have come at a 0:14:04.160 --> 0:14:07.880 more relevant time because basically as the program started, COVID 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:10.400 hit Uh, Susan pick it up from there. What what 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:16.240 has the city of Stockton learned about free money experiments? Yeah? Sure, 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:19.920 So thanks for having me on Um. The experiment in 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:24.760 Stockton is unusual and a little bit different than um, say, 0:14:24.840 --> 0:14:27.480 the experiment in Finland. UM. And it's what made it 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:31.080 kind of particularly interesting to me and relevant to the issue, 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:35.080 and that is, you know, the the design of the 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:40.720 experiment and the attempt is not too focus on just 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:44.720 the unemployed as the experiment in finlandon. You know, as 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:49.320 Andrew Yang during the presidential campaign, did you know, assuming 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:52.720 people might lose their jobs from automation and are going 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:55.680 to need a little extra help, This program is looking 0:14:56.600 --> 0:15:02.440 very specifically at people who live in low income neighborhoods 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:05.960 who need you know what they call it, essentially a 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:10.200 financial vaccine. They need something that makes them a little 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:14.760 more resistant, um, a little more a little less vulnerable 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:19.760 to all of the kinds of shocks um that existed 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:23.840 before the pandemic and then especially uh those that came 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:26.280 because of the pandemic. I love this story. I know 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:29.760 the magazine has talked about this before, Susan Um. We're 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:33.880 not talking about welfare though, right, It's different. Yeah, So 0:15:34.080 --> 0:15:38.200 this is the notion that you know, people know, um 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:41.720 what they need, and you know, when they don't have 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:44.280 a lot of money, what do they need they need money, 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:47.520 and and they and that they know how to spend it. 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:52.160 So it's it's a cash UM, it's a cash dividend, 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:55.160 you know. In this case, it's given out every month. UM. 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:59.520 It was it was five dollars UM. The program was 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:04.000 meant and in July, and because of the pandemic, the 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:08.080 mayor and others found additional funding to continue it through January. 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:10.920 So it'll be for almost two years, about a d 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:15.680 twenty people have received an extra five hundred dollars every month. 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:19.520 And that's in addition to whatever other benefits they may 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:22.400 be receiving. UM. And it's you know, not meant to 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:30.000 replace those, but to give people flexibility. And Susan why Stockton? 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:33.760 Why was that the place that became sort of the 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:40.080 petree for this particular experiment. The Stockton's interesting for a 0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:44.000 lot of reasons. UM it is in some ways, UM, 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:49.160 typical American city. You know, in that UM it was 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:54.320 falling behind in some ways. UM it is atypical. And 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:59.640 that it's very diverse, mean, among the most diversities in America. UM. 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:03.120 But with that has come you know, inequality. There's a 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:09.000 pretty high poverty rate. Stockton was known as being one 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:12.720 of the early epicenters of the housing crisis in two 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:15.760 thousand and eight, it was the first major city to 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:20.920 declare bankruptcy before Detroit. Uh, and so you know it 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:23.720 was it had kind of come in and out of 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:28.399 the national attention and more recently in it elected a 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:33.399 very young, um black mayor who is a very effective 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:37.080 advocate for the city and brought this program to Stockton 0:17:37.320 --> 0:17:40.920 and and is its biggest champion. Yeah. And we should 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:44.280 point out that Mayor Michael Stubbs, he has been supported 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:49.080 by Michael Bloomberg. He graduated from a Harvard mayoral training 0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:54.119 program back in Mayor Stubbs did, and also Blueberg philanth 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:58.000 Frees has donated to a Stockton education reform group. Just 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:01.440 want to put that out there, so Susan, as other 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:05.639 cities have seen what's been going on. Is this something 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:10.320 especially you have mentioned this earlier that Andrew Yang, the 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:14.400 presidential candidate, had sort of put out this idea. Does 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:19.760 this have the potential to catch on? Yeah? So just um, 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:25.200 just this summer, Mayor Tubbs announced a coalition of other mayors. 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:31.840 There's twenty five now who are willing and interested in 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:35.240 advocating for some kind of policy like this at the 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:39.040 state and federal level, and maybe even more important, are 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:44.040 committed to raising the money to put in place experiments 0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:46.639 in their own cities. Uh. And you know what we 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:50.159 could say about that is that, uh, I think in 0:18:50.359 --> 0:18:55.600 part um, you know, Stockton's experiment has shown so far 0:18:55.960 --> 0:19:00.240 it's still underway. Obviously, you know that people are hot year, 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:03.639 that they're less stressed, you know, and that they feel 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:06.480 like they can make better decisions for themselves and their 0:19:06.520 --> 0:19:09.520 families with this money. So I think during a pandemic, 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:15.879 you know, alongside civil unrest and protests against racism, that 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:19.360 this is a policy that more mayors at least are 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:23.879 considering and thinking are worth while to try to fund. Uh. 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:28.280 And then you know, we'll see what happens beyond that, right. Well, 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:30.359 And what's interesting is is it kind of gets These 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:32.359 are people who are working, they have jobs. It's just 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:36.679 they can barely make things, you know, meet and provide 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:39.440 for their families. And so that's what's interesting. And the 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:41.399 virus has reminded us, and you write this in your 0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:44.720 story about how vulnerable many many Americans are to a 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:47.639 sudden shock and needs some kind of assistance like this, 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:50.320 All right, Susan. Susan, thank you so much, really appreciated. 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:54.040 Susan Burfield, she's Projects and Investigations reporter at Bloomberg Business 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:55.760 Week on the phone from New Yorker. Thanks to Joe 0:19:55.840 --> 0:19:58.520 as well. Check out that equality issue. Yeah, it's a 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:01.840 great story, definitely worth thread and part of, as you say, 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:06.719 a big issue dedicated to equality, pairing nicely with our 0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:09.560 equality summit which you've been hearing a lot about this week. 0:20:09.720 --> 0:20:13.280 This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Jason 0:20:13.400 --> 0:20:17.560 Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. In today's Business Week Economics excited 0:20:17.560 --> 0:20:19.400 to back with us, and really it's a double dose 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:22.200 for me because Danny blanche Flower was so gracious to 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:24.200 join me in a few of our Bloomberg colleagues earlier 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:27.359 today for chat with breakaway CEOs. He is professor of 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:31.080 economics at Dartmouth College, former Bank of England Monetary Policy 0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:34.480 Committee member. On the phone from Florida. Um, Danny, first 0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:35.920 of all, I know have messaged you, but thank you, 0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:39.040 thank you, because you really were a great force this morning. Um, 0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:41.639 we talked with a bunch of CEOs. You you know, 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:44.119 you talked about unemployment that you know, the outlook for 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:46.480 the economy. It's pretty grim in terms of how you 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:49.800 see it. Um, I'm just curious if you had some takeaways, uh, 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:53.840 you know, from from what from our discussion. Well, I 0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:56.440 think the big takeaway was that some people are doing 0:20:56.520 --> 0:21:01.760 pretty well, and obviously particular boosnesses have managed to see 0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:04.399 their way through this, and obviously actions by the Fed 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:08.200 of boosted asset prices, and obviously we've had some sort 0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:11.159 of fallback over the last week or so. But that's 0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:14.200 one thing. The other worry is that, you know, the 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:16.200 tail end of the labor market is in is in 0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:18.600 big trouble. I mean, one of the big things if 0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:20.440 you look at the wage grower to is you see 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:24.000 that it's growing at about six and makes no sense. Well, 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:26.119 what it means is that the lower part of the 0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:29.960 wage distribution has dropped out. And the concern is, well, 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:32.440 what happens going forward? Are they going to come back, 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:37.280 are the temporary furloughed firms going to survive? And are 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:39.760 people going to change their long round behavior? And I 0:21:39.840 --> 0:21:42.080 think the answer is that none of these things look 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:44.920 especially good. And the predictions by the FED that the 0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:46.960 unemployment rate next year is going to go to five 0:21:47.000 --> 0:21:48.879 and a half, and the year after that is like 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:51.760 to go to four point six is in well cloud 0:21:51.840 --> 0:21:55.720 cuckoo land. And I think the prospects of weakening labor 0:21:55.840 --> 0:21:59.399 markets up there, and the fact that the stimulus has 0:21:59.440 --> 0:22:02.520 been dragged on suggests that we're going to see something 0:22:02.640 --> 0:22:06.760 worse before we see something better. And so are they 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:11.639 just being too optimistic or they reading the data wrong? What? What? 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:16.640 What's the sort of missing link here? Well, they've traditionally 0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:19.440 read the data wrong. They read it completely. In my 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:22.640 book working on a precisely about this said from two 0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:24.640 thousand fifteen. They don't seem to have a clue about 0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:27.240 the labor market. It's said in two thousand sifting through 0:22:27.320 --> 0:22:29.879 eighteen that the labor market was at full employment. I 0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:33.760 are in frequently that it clearly wasn't raised rates in error, 0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:37.400 and then we get eventually to power backtracking in and saying, yeah, 0:22:37.400 --> 0:22:40.159 we've got that wrong. We need to sort of adapt 0:22:40.240 --> 0:22:43.720 and worry about maximum employment. UM. I mean, in a sense, 0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:45.280 the thing they're having to do is to try and 0:22:45.680 --> 0:22:49.360 forecast forward, but it's really hard with these present data 0:22:49.400 --> 0:22:51.960 will work out exactly what's going on. And I think 0:22:52.000 --> 0:22:54.399 every time you look at it, you realize that the 0:22:54.520 --> 0:22:57.399 data are actually much worse and likely to get and 0:22:57.480 --> 0:23:00.440 worse again. How can you suddenly say they know that 0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:03.560 everything's going to be great in two thousand and twenty one, 0:23:03.640 --> 0:23:06.960 that it seems probably a five trillion dollar FISTS was 0:23:07.040 --> 0:23:11.399 stimulus and probably finding an effective vaccine that everybody takes 0:23:11.720 --> 0:23:15.520 and the furloughed firms all come back and no firms die. Well, 0:23:15.600 --> 0:23:20.040 that's that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Right, It's like 0:23:20.320 --> 0:23:22.960 everything goes as we would hope it would go, and 0:23:23.119 --> 0:23:25.480 that's not likely. I do wonder what are some of 0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:27.600 the discussions you're having with students at Dartmouth. I mean, 0:23:27.680 --> 0:23:30.240 you're not back on campus, and I know we talked 0:23:30.240 --> 0:23:32.800 about it earlier. Just remind us kind of how that's 0:23:32.800 --> 0:23:36.640 all going right now? Well, it's gone, it's gone pretty well. 0:23:36.840 --> 0:23:39.600