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Speaker 1: Long Shot is a production of McClatchy Studios and I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. I'm Alexandrea and this is a bonus feature

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Speaker 1: for payback. The US women are multiple World Cup champions

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Speaker 1: while fighting for equal pay, but today that battle is

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Speaker 1: officially over. The U S women's national team players recently

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Speaker 1: came to an agreement with the US Soccer Federation to

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Speaker 1: settle their long running legal dispute over equal pay. To

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Speaker 1: be able to say, finally, equal pay for equal work

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Speaker 1: feels very very good. As listeners heard in Part ten,

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Speaker 1: the agreement between US Soccer and the women's team was

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Speaker 1: contingent upon both the women's and men's national teams agreeing

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Speaker 1: to new collective bargaining agreements with the federation, and finally

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Speaker 1: that has happened. US Soccer will now do something no

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Speaker 1: other soccer federation in the world does. World Cup prize

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Speaker 1: money will be pooled between the men and women's teams

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Speaker 1: and split equally among all players. Immediately, both the players

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Speaker 1: in the federation jointly declared it a victory for all.

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Speaker 1: In all, this is just a really historic moment that

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Speaker 1: will hopefully lead to meaningful changes in progress. Not like

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Speaker 1: you're at home in the US, but around the world.

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Speaker 1: Here's US Soccer President Cindy Parlo Cone and I think

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Speaker 1: this will not only impact soccer, but it will impact

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Speaker 1: sport in general as well as society. So I'm really

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Speaker 1: proud of what we've achieved together. This is not just

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Speaker 1: equal pay. I think that would be really lazy to

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Speaker 1: state that this deal is all about equal pay. It's not.

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Speaker 1: It's but equal treatment across the board. Dan Lust is

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Speaker 1: an attorney and professor and a former employee of the

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Speaker 1: New York Giants. He spends his days at the intersection

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Speaker 1: of sport and law. If you just look at the

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Speaker 1: deal points, they really put every single thing on the

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Speaker 1: table from a gender disparity standpoint, and they really tried

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Speaker 1: to normalize and equalize the two. Lust wasn't involved in

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Speaker 1: negotiating those contracts, but Lust has gone through much of

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Speaker 1: the publicly available information about the women's team's new deal,

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Speaker 1: and he spoke with me about a few things in

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Speaker 1: that new contract that he finds particularly interesting. I think

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Speaker 1: this is a really complex and layer deal, really the

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Speaker 1: first of its kind in the world. This conversation has

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Speaker 1: been edited and condensed for length and clarity. So my

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Speaker 1: name is Daniel Lust. I'm the sports law professor at

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Speaker 1: New York Law School. You do not have to call

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Speaker 1: me Professor Lust for obvious reasons. But I am a

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Speaker 1: sports and entertainment attorney the law firm of Garrigos and

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Speaker 1: Garrigos in New York City, and I'd say I'm one

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Speaker 1: of a handful of sports legal analysts that goes on

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Speaker 1: shows around the country to talk about the fun intersection

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Speaker 1: of sports and law. Certainly this story is right at

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Speaker 1: the heart of it. Well, you know, it might be

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Speaker 1: a simple question, but is there really sports law? You

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Speaker 1: mentioned the intersection of sports and law. How do you

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Speaker 1: define this area? So as I tell my students one

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Speaker 1: day when maybe uh they're their hearts drop a little bit,

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Speaker 1: but I say, there is no such thing really as

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Speaker 1: quote unquote sports law. It's the intersection of legal issues,

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Speaker 1: which could be labored employment issues, antitrust issues, criminal issues,

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Speaker 1: civil issues when they involve sports parties. So that could

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Speaker 1: be here, women's soccer, men's soccer, it could be the NFL,

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Speaker 1: it could be a Major League Baseball player. My day

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Speaker 1: to day practice, I'm a litigator. I handle all sorts

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Speaker 1: of cases, different shapes and sizes, from practice areas. But

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Speaker 1: you know why I can comment on a number of

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Speaker 1: different quote unquote sports law issues is because they hit

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Speaker 1: on right employment, they hit on sometimes civil lawsuits, contractual lawsuits.

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Speaker 1: So it's understanding the law first and then being able

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Speaker 1: to comment, you know, on the sports specific ramifications. So

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Speaker 1: you have to be a pure lawyer. But I think

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Speaker 1: it really does help to be a die hard sports

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Speaker 1: fan to understand the true you know, we'll say on

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Speaker 1: the pitch fallout, yeah, I will. And to get kind

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Speaker 1: of into the news of this week obviously about the

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Speaker 1: US men's and women's national soccer teams having agreed to

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Speaker 1: a new collective bargaining agreement that will run through and

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Speaker 1: achieves equal pay through identical economic terms, including equalizations of

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Speaker 1: FIFA World Cup prize money. So it seems like a

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Speaker 1: big step forward, especially for the women's team that was

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Speaker 1: engaged in what was at times of really bitter legal

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Speaker 1: dispute with different federation. So I'm curious what has stood

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Speaker 1: out to you about the way that this equal pay

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Speaker 1: case has played out and how it's been resolved through

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Speaker 1: you know, sort of the CBA news. Yeah, So I

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Speaker 1: think if we go back to February that deal that

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Speaker 1: was reached at the court level was always contingent on

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Speaker 1: the c b A being reached. Major news this morning

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Speaker 1: in the year's long fight for equal pay. A six

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Speaker 1: year fight over equal pay may finally have ended. Today

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Speaker 1: the players reached a twenty four million dollar settlement with

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Speaker 1: the US Soccer Federation. It was a promise from US

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Speaker 1: Soccer that they will try their best efforts to work

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Speaker 1: on a deal that looks like equal pay. So I

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Speaker 1: think many expected it to come a little bit sooner

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Speaker 1: because I think the women's CBA expired in March, so

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Speaker 1: people thought it was going to happen very quickly. And

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Speaker 1: we should note that this isn't really everything being wrapped

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Speaker 1: up now. The cb A deal being struck has to

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Speaker 1: go back to court, be approved by the court. You've

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Speaker 1: proved by the class members to that lawsuit. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's hard. You know, you look at the

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Speaker 1: deal points here. It's equality across the board. It's not

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Speaker 1: just pay right, the quality of the field, equal travel,

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Speaker 1: equal share of FIFA prize pool. It's a very will say,

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Speaker 1: monumental and precedent setting deal, really the first of its

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Speaker 1: kind in the world. Certainly, this is a really big

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Speaker 1: step for not just soccer nationally, but this could set

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Speaker 1: the tone for soccer you know, globally. Well. Something that

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Speaker 1: I'm very curious to get your perspective on is you

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Speaker 1: know the fact that the cb A has triggered the

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Speaker 1: official settlement of the women's teams class action equal pay lawsuit.

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Speaker 1: The players were originally asking for more than sixty six

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Speaker 1: million dollars in back pay and then settled right for

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Speaker 1: a lump sum payment of twenty two million, which is

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Speaker 1: significantly less. But also this promised by US Soccer that

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Speaker 1: it would provide this equal grade of pay going forward

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Speaker 1: for the men's and women's teams. Why might this result

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Speaker 1: meaning a settlement have been better for the parties involved,

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Speaker 1: rather than the women continuing down the path of litigation

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Speaker 1: and potentially going to trial. Yeah, so I think the

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Speaker 1: interesting thing here the women had lost an earlier stage

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Speaker 1: of the case and a lot of the case was

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Speaker 1: knocked out. The reigning World Cup champion US women's soccer

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Speaker 1: team is vowing to fight on after a judge dismissed

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Speaker 1: their claim of unequal pay with their male counterparts. The

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Speaker 1: judge said that their claims are not enough to warrant

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Speaker 1: a trial in Paris, Tom. But I think men's soccer,

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Speaker 1: and this is me just reading it from an outside perspective.

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Speaker 1: I think if if the women were to lose their case,

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Speaker 1: there's a very clear reading of it that it would

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Speaker 1: be a loss for both the women's and men's side.

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Speaker 1: I think everyone is understanding right that the women's national

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Speaker 1: team is one of the best teams in the entire world,

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Speaker 1: and it's just really terrible optics that they're being paid

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Speaker 1: pennies on the dollar compared, you know, to the maximum

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Speaker 1: amount the men could have earned. Obviously, the economics are

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Speaker 1: thrown off in the last eight years or so because

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Speaker 1: the men's lack of success at the World Cup level.

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Speaker 1: But I think what everyone needs to take a step

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Speaker 1: back and understand is that, you know, the men's side here.

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Speaker 1: I think the position was FIFA offers a much larger

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Speaker 1: prize pool to the men in the World's Cup. That's

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Speaker 1: independent of what's happening in US soccer. It's just a

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Speaker 1: FIFA position. So the men's side willingness to compromise and say,

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Speaker 1: you know what, even though FIFA is offering the men

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Speaker 1: a a larger, you know, piece of the pie, I

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Speaker 1: think just by qualifying for the World Cup. I think

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Speaker 1: the men's side is entitled to nine million dollars in

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Speaker 1: World Cup bonuses, whereas the women, I think the maximum

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Speaker 1: they could earn by winning the World Cup, as crazy

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Speaker 1: as that is, is closer to four million and alex

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Speaker 1: In spite of the fact that maybe the women didn't

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Speaker 1: have an air tight case in terms of the law,

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Speaker 1: the men said, essentially, hey, we think that the settlement

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Speaker 1: of this case and labor peace between both the men's

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Speaker 1: and women's side is probably safer to the long term

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Speaker 1: health of soccer. And I think you're you're seeing that

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Speaker 1: in the comments here. This deal I don't think happens

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Speaker 1: unless the men's side and their attorneys had a really

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Speaker 1: holistic approach and an altruistic approach that the dollars that

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Speaker 1: we could maybe earned here for you know, the men's

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Speaker 1: side isn't worth the risk to the long term optics

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Speaker 1: of US soccer. So the women's side did a fantastic

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Speaker 1: job negotiating this deal. I think the men's side deserves

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Speaker 1: some credit for compromising on on the financial side, which

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Speaker 1: certainly they didn't have to, but it looks like a

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Speaker 1: deal was struck just as much on the altruistic reasons

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Speaker 1: as they were on the financial reasons. And I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think just bringing in some of those finer points

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Speaker 1: now right like this also may have benefited them on

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Speaker 1: some of those smaller points, meaning like when you look

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Speaker 1: at childcare as part of this deal, it says that

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Speaker 1: you know, national teams during training camps and matches that

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Speaker 1: US Soccer is going to provide childcare for the men's

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Speaker 1: team as well as it has for the US women's

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Speaker 1: national team in the past. For rentally, it is another thing,

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Speaker 1: you know, certain benefits to players are things that sort

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Speaker 1: of stood out to me, is you know, maybe this

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Speaker 1: is a little bit more revolutionary for the men's side

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Speaker 1: as well as the women's side. Yeah, and then you know,

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Speaker 1: in talking about my soccer history with you, I played

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Speaker 1: in high school, tried to play in college, wasn't quite

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Speaker 1: good enough for the collegiate level. But I'm a father

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Speaker 1: of two little girls who I hope to you know,

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Speaker 1: we'll go up and play soccer. And I think that's

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Speaker 1: got to be the standpoint. On the men's side, You

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Speaker 1: don't they're all I mean, imagine a good amount of

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Speaker 1: them are girl Dad's right. They want the future of

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Speaker 1: women's soccer that they would appreciate. And just as much

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Speaker 1: as the women's side was in a position to shape

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Speaker 1: soccer or women's soccer for the future, the men's side

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Speaker 1: was as well. And I think, you know, from a

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Speaker 1: humane standpoint, I think that makes sense, and also on

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Speaker 1: a childcare level, right, Like I don't know, maybe there

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Speaker 1: are some things that weren't as highly publicized that the

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Speaker 1: men wanted that the women had, and and that seems

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Speaker 1: to be one of them, right, just like in the workforce.

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Speaker 1: So I think it strikes a balance on a number

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Speaker 1: of levels. If you look at the deal, right, a

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Speaker 1: lot of it is just it's a fancy legal term, right,

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Speaker 1: it's a cut and paste, right, men's get this, women's

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Speaker 1: get this. It's it's meant to mirror one another. So

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Speaker 1: I think that is really big. And if you just

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Speaker 1: look at the deal points, and I think there were

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Speaker 1: thirty five plus negotiating sessions, I saw that at one point.

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Speaker 1: You know, it looks like they really put every single

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Speaker 1: thing on the table that had possibly come up from

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Speaker 1: a gender disparity standpoint, and they really tried to normalize

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Speaker 1: and equalize the two. You know, this is not just

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Speaker 1: equal pay. I think that would be really lazy to

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Speaker 1: say that this deal is all about equal pay. It's not.

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Speaker 1: It's about equal treatment across the board, up and down

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Speaker 1: during season out of the season. I think this is

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Speaker 1: a really complex and layer deal. You shouldn't chock anyone

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Speaker 1: that this took longer than US legal experts expected. We'll

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Speaker 1: be back after this the US men's and women's national

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Speaker 1: soccer teams having agreed to a new collective bargaining agreement.

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Speaker 1: Certainly it is something that took longer than expected. I

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Speaker 1: don't know how something like this would typically play out,

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Speaker 1: but the turning point sort of tame when everyone got

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Speaker 1: in a room together and sat down and really just

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Speaker 1: hashed it out that way. Being involved in these kind

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Speaker 1: of discussions, I mean, how difficult is it to get

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Speaker 1: something like this across the finish line, knowing that, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe it's not entirely across this point, but to get

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Speaker 1: to this place. Um, we're to really unique time in

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Speaker 1: in soccer, right the men have already qualified for the

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Speaker 1: upcoming World Cup, and they have an automatic qualifier to

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Speaker 1: the next World Cup, So I think that certainly plays

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Speaker 1: a role in this. Timing is really everything I'm happy

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Speaker 1: to use word like serendipitous. If the men, let's say

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Speaker 1: they failed to qualify for the upcoming World Cup and

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Speaker 1: they didn't have an automatic qualifier in the next World Cup,

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Speaker 1: maybe the women's side is sitting here and they're saying, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, it sounds really good to split the World

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Speaker 1: Cup prize pool. What if you guys don't qualify for

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Speaker 1: the next two years, then maybe this is a bad

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Speaker 1: deal for us, as crazy as that sounds. Right, the

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Speaker 1: women win the World Cup, the men don't qualify, what's

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Speaker 1: the point of splitting the bonus here? So I think

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Speaker 1: the fact that the men qualified automatic qualifier for the

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Speaker 1: following year, I think is very serendipitous. And again, the

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Speaker 1: length of this deal, it takes you, not coincidentally, for

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Speaker 1: the next two World Cups, and that's the bulk of

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Speaker 1: the money that both sides will make. There's also a

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Speaker 1: split in terms of broadcast revenue, so I think that

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Speaker 1: is also going to play factor. Just the timing worked

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Speaker 1: out on a number of levels to get this deal done.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned, you know, the World Cup prize money was

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Speaker 1: certainly a huge sticking point, and it's something that US

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Speaker 1: Soccer has said in the past, would be impossible to

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Speaker 1: equalize it with bankrupt the federation, was the rhetoric before,

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Speaker 1: you know, More recently it sounded like this has been

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Speaker 1: a call to action to FIFA, to other governing bodies.

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Speaker 1: How difficult is it to replicate something like this at

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Speaker 1: an international level or across federations. You know, it's going

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Speaker 1: to take the willingness of the attorneys or council on

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Speaker 1: a men's side in a different country to have an

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Speaker 1: appreciation that, hey, maybe you don't necessarily have to win

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Speaker 1: the battle, but you can win the war on soccer right.

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Speaker 1: So again here I don't I don't want to make

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Speaker 1: light of it. If a financial accountant was asked like, hey,

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Speaker 1: on the men's side, should you take this deal where

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Speaker 1: you're you know, potentially giving up tens of millions more

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Speaker 1: that the women's side is not eligible for just based

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Speaker 1: on FIFA standard. I think the if the accountant told you, hey,

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Speaker 1: this is a much better deal than what the men

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Speaker 1: had originally, I think you probably wouldn't trust them. Now,

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Speaker 1: could we get into the mindset of a different country

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Speaker 1: that maybe takes the same viewpoint. Possibly, but I think

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Speaker 1: we have to keep in mind right men's soccer is

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Speaker 1: undergoing a giant overhaul domestically, so I think that is

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Speaker 1: certainly playing a role in all of this, that the

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Speaker 1: long term health of men's soccer might have been in question, uh,

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Speaker 1: and they needed to kind of partner with the women's side.

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Speaker 1: And I think, you know, also, I don't you know, globally,

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Speaker 1: we know what's going on here. Right there is a

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Speaker 1: societal movement. Maybe this doesn't happen four years ago, five

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Speaker 1: years ago, but right now the time is ripe to

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Speaker 1: make a really big change and make a really big

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Speaker 1: societal statement for all the parties involved. In addition to

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Speaker 1: all these altruistic reasons, these salaries for international soccer have increased,

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Speaker 1: the transfer fees have increased, the economy of international soccer

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Speaker 1: I certainly increased. So that's I think going to make

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Speaker 1: the men feel a little bit better about giving up

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Speaker 1: a piece of the fief for World Cup money because

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Speaker 1: they're just making more money than the last time the

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Speaker 1: CVA came up. And I think NWSL salaries going up

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Speaker 1: as well a certainly helps that conversation. So I think

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Speaker 1: the money going up for the rest of soccer made

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Speaker 1: this an easier pill to swallow for both sides. From

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Speaker 1: financial standpoint, yeah, certainly money matters. And then I think

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Speaker 1: something that's also maybe important to mention off that point

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Speaker 1: that FIFA, like US Soccer or their nonprofits, whereas you know,

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Speaker 1: sometimes I think the same arguments get conflated on like

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Speaker 1: a private versus you know, a nonprofit level. Yeah, I'll

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Speaker 1: say on that it's like, you know, US Soccer rightfully,

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Speaker 1: Hammond for a lot of points they had made over

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Speaker 1: the course of this litigation under prior leadership, will say,

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Speaker 1: but the one point that I think was fair is

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Speaker 1: that they're saying we don't control the amount of prize

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Speaker 1: pool allotted to the women's versus men's on the back end, right,

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Speaker 1: maybe we could control the distribution of that money, but

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Speaker 1: we can't control the amounts by default that FIFA set.

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Speaker 1: So FIFA has has been well reported, has their own issues, bribery,

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Speaker 1: scandals and whatnot. You know, people are free to look

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Speaker 1: it up. But I think with US Soccer is saying, listen,

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Speaker 1: we are not going to you know, kick the can

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Speaker 1: down the road at this point, We're not going to

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Speaker 1: punt and saying it's an excuse that FIFA might be

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Speaker 1: corrupt or they're stuck in the past, we you're going

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Speaker 1: to make a difference here and saying, regardless of what

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Speaker 1: FIFA might want to distribute, we're going to basically put

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Speaker 1: a legal filter on that top gap. We're still going

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Speaker 1: to allocate that fairly. So US Soccer is making a

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Speaker 1: standpoint we don't care what the rest of the world

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Speaker 1: is doing. Legally, we are going to do it this

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Speaker 1: way and we hope others follow. Do you think there

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Speaker 1: are other sports leagues, teams, organizations out there that are

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Speaker 1: watching what's happening here as as some sort of president

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Speaker 1: that can be replicated in the future. I think it's

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Speaker 1: a great question. The NWSL is certainly tied to this

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Speaker 1: deal because of the guaranteed salaries that are being taken

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Speaker 1: away from the women's national team players, so that's the

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Speaker 1: finance of that league. Have been brought up in these

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Speaker 1: terms of conversations. How does this affect the settlement, How

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Speaker 1: does it affect the league? The other league that is

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Speaker 1: probably watching this closely, it's probably um the other biggest

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Speaker 1: women's professional league in the United States, that's the w

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Speaker 1: n b A. And much has been made, especially in

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Speaker 1: light of this Britney Grinder saga. That's going on in Russia.

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Speaker 1: One of the stars of the w n B A

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Speaker 1: is least of the time of this recording, stuck in

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Speaker 1: a Russian prison because of allegations that she, you know,

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Speaker 1: was possessing a the cannabis device. So why was Britney

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Speaker 1: Grinder in Russia? Because she wasn't making enough money domestically

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Speaker 1: with the w n b A, was forced to go

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Speaker 1: play overseas where they pay exponentially more money. The men's

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Speaker 1: NBA is some of the most well compensated players in

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Speaker 1: the country, um off, not in the entire professional sports

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Speaker 1: landscape globally, and women are playing the same exact sport

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Speaker 1: make pennies on the dollar. And just to keep in mind, right,

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Speaker 1: the w n b A is connected legally to the NBA,

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Speaker 1: So maybe we should be looking a little bit more

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Speaker 1: closely at compensation being given to women's basketball players. And

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Speaker 1: I would hope that they read this message loud and

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Speaker 1: clear and people start parking up and say, hey, it

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Speaker 1: might be time for a change there as well. I'm Alexandrea.

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Speaker 1: Payback is a production of The Charlotte Observer, Raleigh News

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Speaker 1: and Observer, McClatchy Studios, and iHeart Radio It's produced by

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Speaker 1: Cotta Stevens, Casey Toff, Julia Wall, and Davin Coburn, the

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