WEBVTT - Ep. 90: Tecumseh - We Shall Remain (Part 2) 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:08.400 Yeah. It was the largest Indian alliance that the United 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:13.000 States ever faced, the most effective, the greatest threat that 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:17.479 the United States ever faced during the entire westward movement 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:21.799 from the Alleghanies to the West coast. This is the 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:25.000 second episode in our Two comes To series where we'll 0:00:25.040 --> 0:00:30.200 look at his life from seventeen seventy five through eighteen twelve. Originally, 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:34.880 I had planned to title this one Uncommon Genius, which 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:39.080 is what US President William Henry Harrison called the Shawnee. 0:00:39.600 --> 0:00:43.720 I decided, however, to use the declarative statement made by 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:49.080 the panther crossing the sky himself in response to intolerable 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:52.239 encroachment while many of his own tribe were leaving and 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:57.440 heading west. Two comes To said, we shall remain. We're 0:00:57.480 --> 0:01:00.520 going to learn the details of Two comes Is involvement 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:03.360 in the War of eighteen twelve, But most interesting to 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:07.480 me will explore the worldview differences of the Indians and 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:11.880 Europeans and how it was destined to fail. And we'll 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:15.559 see that change is the only constant and predictable thing 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:20.160 on planet Earth. I wish I had good news for you, 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:24.880 but the waters continue to be murky. But this time 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:28.960 with blood, I really doubt you're gonna want to miss 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:31.600 this one. And suddenly, in the midst of the War 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:34.280 of eighteen twelve, too comes. It becomes He's still an enemy, 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:37.880 but he's an heroic enemy. He's a hero already with 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:52.360 an American American hero. My name is Clay Nukelem and 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:56.080 this is the Bear Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things 0:01:56.160 --> 0:02:00.800 forgotten but relevant, search for insight and unlikely places, and 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:04.559 where we'll tell the story of Americans who live their 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:09.320 lives close to the land. Presented by f HF gear, 0:02:09.840 --> 0:02:14.519 American made, purpose built hunting and fishing gear. It's designed 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:24.840 to be as rugged as the places we explore. This 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:28.760 is a very traumatic time for tribal people in Indiana 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:32.799 because they see their lands just being overrun. And the 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:39.040 Greenville Treaty, which assigned in seventeen guarantees to tribal people 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:43.120 the northwest third of Ohio, but opens up southern Ohio, 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:47.280 well the line doesn't hold. In other words, white settlers 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:49.520 come in and then they just cross on their own 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:53.160 and we call that now settler colonialism because the federal 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:56.760 government doesn't have any authority to stop them. And here 0:02:56.800 --> 0:02:59.720 they come, and they're not supposed to be their hunting. 0:02:59.840 --> 0:03:04.320 They are hunting the game. Number of game animals declines. 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:07.640 It's a it's a very it is a way of 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:13.639 life that is is crumbling around them, and they're not 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:26.880 exactly sure what to do. These lands are ours, and 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:30.200 no one has the right to remove us, because we 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:34.840 were the first proprietors. The Great Spirit above has appointed 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:38.480 this place for us to light our fires, and here 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:42.680 we shall remain as two boundaries. The Great Spirit above 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:48.840 knows no boundary, nor will his people acknowledge any. Two 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:54.480 Kumsa spoken to his followers in eighteen o seven. These 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:58.680 words were his response to the settler colonialism breaking the 0:03:58.720 --> 0:04:02.520 Treaty of Greenville. They were definitive in certain words that 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:06.760 drew a line in the black dirt of Ohio. Before this, 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:10.480 he had been more diplomatic, more trusting of the Americans 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:14.880 who set across the table, making treaties and drawing boundary lines. 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:19.080 Two Cumsa was now thirty nine years old. His youthful 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:24.880 zealousness had slowly transformed into a calloused and unbreakable certainty 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:28.800 that would lead his followers into the most significant resistance 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:34.200 to American expansion east of the Mississippi and ultimately lead 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:38.120 him to his own death, which he would prophesy with 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:44.599 his own mouth. Two cums To had told William Henry Harrison, 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:48.680 the governor of Indiana Territory, that he and hence Otawa 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:51.480 and their followers would abide by the treaties that have 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:53.640 been made to date, as wrong as they were, but 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:57.520 they would not yield another inch of land without fighting 0:04:57.640 --> 0:05:00.760 the Americans. And in eighteen o nine, Harry Uson, for 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:06.280 his own political reasons, decided to negotiate another nefarious treaty 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:10.520 for more land, more Indian land close to that part 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:14.200 of Indiana where the Shawnee Brothers were then living prophets Town. 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:17.440 And that was, you know, one treaty too many, and 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:21.760 that drew more adherence to the two cumps and Tankat 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:25.120 was caused Indies who otherwise we're not attracted by the 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:28.880 religious message, but more so by the political military part 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:31.239 of it. Oh my god, the whites are they're pushing again. 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:38.000 They're pushing again. That was Peter Cozens, the author of 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:41.680 the acclaimed book Two Kumsa and the Prophet. On part 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:43.960 one of this series, we learned that two Cumsa was 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:47.360 born in Ohio into the panther clan of the Shawnees 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:51.640 under the tailings of a celestial sign. He lost three 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:55.080 father figures to murder and war with the white trespassers, 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:58.279 and his mother left him in Ohio and fled west 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:02.400 into Missouri. His oh older brother chis Aqua, tasked to 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:05.560 raise two comes To proclaimed that he'd rather let the 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:08.560 fouls of the air pick his bones and be buried 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:12.680 back at camp. Later he would also die from a 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:18.359 white musket ball. These boys were fighters, visionaries, and loved 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:21.960 the traditional Indian way of life. Two comes To shared 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:26.640 and adopted father Blackfish with Daniel Boone and likely lived 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:29.240 in the same village as him for several months when 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:33.400 old dB was a Shawnee captive. While a teenager, Two 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:36.440 comes To broke his leg hunting bison on horseback and 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:39.640 walked with a notable limp his whole life. He was 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:42.640 known as one of the greatest hunters in the Shawnee nation. 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:46.440 In the guerrilla warfare of the late seventeen hundreds, he 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:51.000 became known as an uncanny war leader, displaying skill, wit 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:56.599 and bravery and nobility as he hated and disdained the 0:06:56.680 --> 0:07:00.960 torture of prisoners, which was common. Almost everyone that wrote 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:05.800 about meeting Tacumsa spoke of his handsome appearance, magnetic drawl, 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:11.480 and his uncanny oratory skills. Some believe evidence by the 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:14.880 inspirational power he had over people, that he may have 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:19.320 been the greatest orator in American history. Ten Squintawa, the 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:23.320 younger brother of Tecumsa, had a transformative vision in eighteen 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:27.640 o five and became the spiritual spokesman, the prophet for 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:31.640 the most powerful Indian revival in history, persuading tribal people 0:07:31.680 --> 0:07:34.720 to return to their traditional way of life, for going 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:38.760 alcohol and repenting of their white ways by rejecting the 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:43.400 technology and culture of the European interlopers. It comes to 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:46.040 join forces with his brother, for I mean a religious 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:49.840 and political movement that united the largest inter tribal group 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:54.280 of Indians ever assembled into a Pan Indian confederacy that 0:07:54.360 --> 0:07:58.360 stood against the young giant, the United States. This is 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:02.080 all the stuff that we learned on episode one. General 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:06.920 Sir Isaac Brock said this about two Cumsa in eighteen twelve, 0:08:08.520 --> 0:08:12.840 I found some extraordinary characters. He who attracted most of 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:16.600 my attention was a Shawnee chief two Cumpsa, brother to 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:19.560 the prophet who for the last two years has carried 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:24.560 on contrary to our remonstrances and active warfare against the 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:29.680 United States. A more sagacious or more galleant warrior does not, 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:35.080 I believe exist. He was the admiration of everyone who 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:40.640 conversed with him. Major General Brock was meeting with Twocumsa 0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:44.000 to negotiate an alliance with the British to fight against 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:47.960 the Americans. Yep, our boy two comes A fought with 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:51.760 the Brits against America. That's a pretty good way to 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:55.839 get a bad name around these parts. But somehow two 0:08:55.880 --> 0:09:00.360 Cumsa emerged an American hero. I'm very interesting than that. 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:04.559 In eighteen oh seven, though, two COMPSA it had enough 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:10.440 and it was time to take up the hatchet. But 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:12.679 even with that, to come say and thanks af how 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:14.480 it knew they didn't have the strength to take on 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:16.880 the Americans. They were not going to launch an offensive 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:19.839 war even at this point, I mean they needed They 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:22.640 realized they needed to help with the British in Canada, 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:25.880 at least British arms and ammunition before they could begin 0:09:25.960 --> 0:09:29.120 to put up a credible resistance to the Americans. Fast 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:32.960 forward a little bit more eighteen eleven, two COMPSA and 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:37.319 William Henry Harrison had this contentious conference at the territorial 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:40.960 capital of Vincennes. Two comes to reiterates his message that 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:45.040 I'm trying to build a pan Ding alliance, not to 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:47.880 launch war against the Americans, but to defend what is 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:51.760 ours against any more encroachment byou. You're not going to 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:54.120 break us up piecemeal like you have in the past. 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:56.480 And oh, by the way, I'm going to head south 0:09:56.720 --> 0:09:59.360 and take my message and then of my brother to 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:03.800 the tribe of the American South, the Chickasaw, the Cherokee, 0:10:04.160 --> 0:10:07.959 the Choctaw, and the Creeks, the great so called civilized 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:11.440 tribes of American South, all most of whish numbered about 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:14.680 twenty thousand people. These are strong tribes, he said, for 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:18.559 the purpose of creating a united front. When Harrison heard that, 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:21.800 I mean he had a real high regard for Takoms. 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:25.640 In fact, he he wrote, was perhaps the greatest tribute 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:30.680 ever penned by an American leader to a potential Indian foe. 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:36.040 William Henry Harrison was the governor of the Indiana Territory 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:39.160 and would one day become the President of the United States. 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:44.160 On episode one. I ended with part of Harrison's famed 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:47.840 quote about twakumsa. It's so good, We're gonna listen to 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:51.800 it again, but this time in its entirety. I'll add 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:55.000 that this was extracted from a private letter, so we 0:10:55.000 --> 0:11:00.160 can assume Harrison meant these words the deepest sincerity. I 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:04.480 may make this a ringtone on my phone. Here's what 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:09.560 William Henry Harrison said after his contentionous eighteen eleven conference 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:14.079 with the with the Comps. The implicit obedience and respect 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:17.440 which the followers of two comes to pay to him 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:23.359 is really astonishing, and more than any other circumstance bespeaks 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:28.920 him one of those uncommon geniuses which spring up occasionally 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:34.400 to produce revolutions and overturn the established order of things. 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:38.280 If it were not for the vicinity of the United States, 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:42.000 he would perhaps be the founder of an empire that 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:45.920 would rival in glory that of Mexico or Peru. He 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:48.880 meant the great, of course, great Indian empires. He went 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:53.200 on to say, no difficulties deter him his activity and 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:57.600 industry supply the want of letters. For four years he 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:01.240 has been in constant motion. See him today on the 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:04.360 Wabash River and in a short time you hear of 0:12:04.480 --> 0:12:07.920 him on the shores of Lake Erie, or Michigan, or 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:11.439 on the banks of the Mississippi. And wherever he goes, 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:16.360 he makes an impression favorable to his purposes. The rest 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:21.600 it comes in will be home the pioneering land us 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:31.360 the room. Come now, who can sell the air and 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:34.520 who can sell the sea? Who has right to sell land? 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:38.240 It for you? And comes? Get the words of this 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:41.920 folk song declare, two comes to get your rifle, Two 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:44.800 comes to get your gun for on the field tomorrow 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:47.839 you'll meet with Harrison. Now who can sell the air, 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:50.439 and who can sell the seat? Who has the right 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:53.000 to sell the land? Put here for you and me. 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:57.000 This song is by the Tillers, a cool folk band 0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:00.520 out of Ohio. It's called two Comes on the back Attlefield. 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:03.640 It's written about the famous meeting of William Henry Harrison 0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:08.000 and two Coomesa in August eighteen eleven. Harrison and two 0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:12.520 Cumpsa had a classically romantic but very real and bloody 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:17.120 and not so romantic nineteenth century rivalry. They were arch 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:20.640 enemies but maintain respect for each other. It was just 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:25.200 a different time. I want to step outside of the 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:28.160 Chronology of two comes his life for a minute and 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:32.680 look into the Native American worldview. Having a view into 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:36.200 this is essential and understanding the dynamics of what was 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:41.640 actually happening when Indians and Americans met. Here is my friend, 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:46.720 historian and Cornell University professor Robert Morgan talking about the 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:52.199 way the Native Americans viewed warfare. The Anglo Saxons didn't 0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:55.439 see warfare as a ritualistic thing. As a spiritual thing, 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:57.640 you fought until you won, and if you lost, you 0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:01.760 fought again. This certainly see it that way. There's a 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:04.640 ritual and you know, after a certain time, you go away. 0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:07.640 That's what Cornstalk did at Point Pleasant. It's not at 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:12.320 all clear that General Lewis won at Point Pleasant. It's 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:14.360 in fact, it seems that Cornstalk and the and the 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:18.040 Shawnees may kill more people, but they got tired of fighting. 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:20.720 I mean, you don't just keep on forever, and and 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:23.840 Cornstalk I thought, you know, well, I'm tired of this. 0:14:24.000 --> 0:14:25.840 I don't want to any more people kill or to 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:29.120 kill more people. So they just conceded and signed the treaty. 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:31.520 But it's it's not at all clear that they lost 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:34.680 that battle. In fact, it's not entirely clear that William 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:37.480 Henry Harrison won the battle of typical news. You could 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:39.880 kind of argue the other way, but he might have 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:43.280 just fought longer. Yeah, they wouldn't give up. I mean 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:47.240 there was different ways of thinking of warfare. Wow. You know, 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:50.600 that's what most confounds me is I try to just 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:55.240 get a small understanding of the Native American worldview at 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:59.360 that time versus kind of a Western worldview from the 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:03.400 white europe Ian's. It was almost like two different types 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:07.560 of beans from different planets were engaging with the cultures. 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:10.560 It's very hard for them to mix because they saw 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:15.480 themselves in the world in very different ways. The different 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:19.280 ways these two groups understood warfare is a significant factor 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:23.640 when the stakes are this high and immissible cultures what 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:28.520 an interesting phrase. The word admissible means not forming a 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:32.280 homogeneous mixture. When added together. Some of the greatest human 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:36.920 tragedies of history could be linked back to this problem. Generally, 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:40.640 people think that other people of the world view the 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:44.600 world the way they do, but they typically don't. Per 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:50.200 biological fact, all Homo sapiens share common ancestors, but the 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:54.200 human diaspora across planet Earth created such a long period 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:58.680 of separation geographically, it's as if it created a rift. 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:03.360 Even as thee as the human soul, the mind, will, 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:06.480 and emotions are known to represent what we call the soul. 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:09.440 And I think if we mind into that statement, we 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:12.720 find that the mind, will, and emotions of the Europeans 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:16.120 and the Native Americans were very different. And I want 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:19.800 to clarify that. I believe the human spirit is different 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:22.760 from the soul. It's what connects us all and defines 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:27.880 our humanity. Aside from the biological indicators, the spirit is 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:31.960 our common bond. It's certainly what makes humans different than 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:36.040 just highly evolved smart and monkeys. That modern trope is 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:40.960 intoxicated with its own sophistication and fallacious intercourse with the data, 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:45.520 making it unable to discern something that's undeniable and evident. 0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:50.320 Humans are different than beasts. Noticed I didn't say better 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:53.840 by what system? Would you say one thing is better 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:57.080 than another? Humans do live by a different set of 0:16:57.200 --> 0:17:01.080 rules than beasts. The human spirit, though, I believe, is 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:04.800 at the core of it all. It's what connected Harrison 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:09.399 and two KUMSA. It's wildly interesting to consider that the 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:13.119 first Homo sapiens spread out of North Africa and the 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:18.159 Middle East. Some headed west into Europe became the Chro Magnuts, 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:21.919 and then the modern Europeans over EON's the pigment of 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:27.520 their skin paled in some magic biological adaptive potion influenced 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:31.000 by the long winters of the northern Hemisphere. Two Cumsa 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:35.280 would later call the descendants of these people pale faces. 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:41.480 In this diaspora, some humans went east, occupying Asia and 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:45.719 eventually made an incomprehensible journey over the burying land bridge, 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:49.680 and perhaps some by ocean vessel from East Asia into 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:53.240 North America. The best guests we have is that this 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:56.920 happened sometime in the vicinity of twenty thousand years ago, 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:00.960 and this continent was inhabited starting in the west and 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:06.159 moving east. Genetic evidence from archaeological sites and some modern 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:11.600 testing on indigenous people shows links back to Asia. However, 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:15.720 many Native American tribes have ancient stories of their arrival 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:19.440 onto this continent coming from the south, and I don't 0:18:19.520 --> 0:18:23.919 dismiss their ancient arrival stories. Don't think for a second 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:26.600 that we know all the answers of the ancient world. 0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:31.000 We just don't. The archaeological record in its most robust 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:34.760 form is a dim record. I have tremendous faith in 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:39.000 archaeology and science. I ain't no hater, flat earther or 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:43.119 science denier. I'm just saying interpretation of the data that 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:48.400 we have is just that, an interpretation and getting back 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:52.080 to our human diasporas story, if you'll allow me the 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:57.160 liberty to simplify a very complex story. A group of 0:18:57.200 --> 0:19:01.439 people split up and started on journey from the same 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:05.560 spot North Africa the Middle East, but they headed in 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:11.159 opposite directions on around planet. They met years later on 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:16.080 the American frontier, with vastly different ways of interpreting the 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:19.359 planet and what it meant to be a human. These 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:22.240 boys surely thought that the world was flat, so they 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:27.919 couldn't have predicted that they'd meet again. There's even Biblical 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:32.199 reference to this problem, this idea of immissible cultures and 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:36.600 the corresponding division that would produce difficulty in relationship. The 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:39.359 story of the Tower of Babel tells of men beginning 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:42.960 to work together with such effectiveness they believed they could 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:46.320 build a tower that reached heaven. They spoke the same 0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:51.400 language and exemplified great power. Their ego swelled to destructive 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:55.320 levels so God scrambled their language so they could no 0:19:55.400 --> 0:20:00.320 longer collaborate. The strategy used to divide people was to 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:05.520 crash their communication. That's important on the American Frontier two. 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:10.240 It's believed there are six thousand languages spoken today on 0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:15.280 planet Earth. The Shawnee language is one of them. You'll 0:20:15.320 --> 0:20:19.200 remember Chief Ben Barnes from the last episode. He's essentially 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:23.960 the president of a functional and sovereign Indian nation today. 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:27.439 I want to ask him about the Shawnee worldview, and 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:31.520 he immediately takes it right back to language. What's the 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:39.040 biggest difference in the Shawnee Indigenous worldview from classic Western thinker. 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:41.680 I have thought about that question too, So I didn't 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:43.320 start out. I had no desire to be chief at 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:45.320 the Shawnee, which is a place that I found myself 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:47.440 in and I thought, well, I think I have something 0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:50.359 that I can you contribute here. And I found myself 0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:53.320 in the right time when our former chief retired to 0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:55.720 step into that role. But before that, my brother and 0:20:55.720 --> 0:21:00.199 I was volunteering running the Shawnee Tribes language program. It 0:21:00.240 --> 0:21:02.639 was those years of teaching language that I started to 0:21:02.720 --> 0:21:06.520 understand how Shawnee is different and why it's different. So 0:21:06.720 --> 0:21:09.760 in English and a lot of European language, you have 0:21:09.840 --> 0:21:14.280 this subject verb relationship, that subject verb rightship is you 0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:17.720 have a subject verb object. It's always subject object, almost 0:21:17.720 --> 0:21:21.040 exclusively subject verb object here in North America and well 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:23.320 Central America too, you know, you know, in most of 0:21:23.320 --> 0:21:27.080 the languages of this hemisphere, whereas the noun has primacy 0:21:27.280 --> 0:21:30.520 in European languages, and that the subject. You want to 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:33.280 tell about the subject, the subject what it did, and 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:36.199 that becomes your framework of understanding. It's always related to 0:21:36.440 --> 0:21:39.600 the subject, and then all this other stuff. In Shawnee language, 0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:42.520 the verb is the center of the universe. It's not 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:45.639 important who did it yet. Yeah, So the way you 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:48.359 frame your sentences, the way that you talk is centered 0:21:48.359 --> 0:21:50.440 around that verb. Can you give me? Can you give 0:21:50.440 --> 0:21:53.000 me an example? Example that I use is like, uh, 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:55.440 if there was an older there's an older lady. She 0:21:55.560 --> 0:21:57.520 had always come to language class. She had better tendants 0:21:57.520 --> 0:22:00.440 than even INTI instructors did. Her name was Rosa May Peterson, 0:22:00.840 --> 0:22:03.199 and Rosa May. She would come to classes. And so 0:22:03.240 --> 0:22:07.040 if Rosa was to cook a traditional dish corn soup dish, 0:22:07.359 --> 0:22:10.119 and I'll speak in English for this. So if Rosa 0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:11.480 was to speak this the way I would say it, 0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:16.520 and Shawnee would be cooked corn soup? Did rosame Peterson? 0:22:16.760 --> 0:22:21.240 So I'm telling you that she cooked? And then why 0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:23.920 did she cook? Oh, corn soup? I like corn soup. 0:22:23.960 --> 0:22:26.240 Someone to put that at first, because it's important what 0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:28.920 she cooked. Then who cooked it? So what who cooked? 0:22:28.920 --> 0:22:32.639 It's no big deal. But if my daughter, if I 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:34.600 could say my five year old daughter had cooked it, 0:22:34.760 --> 0:22:36.359 I would want to make sure that that was the 0:22:36.400 --> 0:22:39.880 most important part of the story. You know, Brianna cooked 0:22:40.359 --> 0:22:43.040 corn soup. So now I have this, She's like, can 0:22:43.119 --> 0:22:45.760 you believe that? So the way that that when I 0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:49.280 tell that to you, really she cooked that. So you 0:22:49.359 --> 0:22:52.719 understand there's a different emphasis. Now it's changing the episodes 0:22:52.800 --> 0:22:55.760 like this is exceptional because occurred before the verb. So 0:22:56.240 --> 0:22:57.840 what I just told you that was in front of 0:22:57.840 --> 0:23:00.439 that verb is the most important thing what I'm telling you. 0:23:01.119 --> 0:23:03.159 So if i'm if you're coming to me and negotiating 0:23:03.160 --> 0:23:05.359 a treaty and we're talking about what what the terms 0:23:05.359 --> 0:23:07.119 are and what's going to happen, I am looking at 0:23:07.119 --> 0:23:10.000 the verbs and you're looking for nowns. So it's in 0:23:10.600 --> 0:23:13.040 the way that the things are being said are important. 0:23:13.320 --> 0:23:15.920 The order that things are being said is what's important. 0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:20.600 So that's a different worldview. You ought to just rewiden 0:23:20.640 --> 0:23:23.880 the tape and listen to that section again. It makes 0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:28.199 my gears spend backwards to realize how complex the situation was. 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:33.120 These people didn't understand each other. The structure of our 0:23:33.240 --> 0:23:37.240 language displays our value system. In the Shawnee world, who 0:23:37.359 --> 0:23:40.879 did something wasn't as important as what actually was done. 0:23:41.359 --> 0:23:44.840 The individual is minimized and the community is the focus. 0:23:45.320 --> 0:23:49.000 To Westerners, who did it is most important. But there's more. 0:23:50.760 --> 0:23:53.400 That's a great answer to that question. It just gives 0:23:53.400 --> 0:23:57.280 a window. And sometimes things as complex as that original question, 0:23:57.520 --> 0:23:59.960 sometimes you just get one little example and you kind 0:24:00.000 --> 0:24:02.240 to see it. But from that you can see kind 0:24:02.240 --> 0:24:05.160 of the core emphasis of the people was not so 0:24:05.720 --> 0:24:09.760 me or I or person. You just hit the actual 0:24:09.800 --> 0:24:12.000 center of the bulls on this one because it centers 0:24:12.040 --> 0:24:16.760 the community. Your community has primacy. Community has primacy working 0:24:16.760 --> 0:24:20.400 from that Shawnee language framework, right whereas in other society 0:24:20.680 --> 0:24:23.800 that's you know, now intruded on North American thought processes, 0:24:24.560 --> 0:24:27.640 it becomes more into individualistic, I think, which is really 0:24:27.680 --> 0:24:29.960 intriguing right now in the times we live in where 0:24:30.000 --> 0:24:31.920 we seems like we have lost our sense of identity 0:24:31.960 --> 0:24:34.480 in terms of like our community. Right, it's like that 0:24:34.640 --> 0:24:37.560 you've seen this weakness, of weakness of belonging to community, 0:24:37.800 --> 0:24:40.000 and I think these little devices that we all all 0:24:40.040 --> 0:24:42.920 carry that further divorced us from senses of phon he's 0:24:42.960 --> 0:24:46.879 got his phone of community. Yeah, Chief Ben Barnes is 0:24:46.880 --> 0:24:49.440 shaking his phone in his hand to make a point 0:24:49.440 --> 0:24:54.080 that our cell phones are disrupting traditional community. It's definitely 0:24:54.119 --> 0:24:58.879 an interesting idea. Here's another though very interesting component of 0:24:58.960 --> 0:25:02.439 Shawnee language and some of the indigenous languages. There was 0:25:02.560 --> 0:25:07.760 no word for animal that separated man. There were just 0:25:08.320 --> 0:25:11.159 living beings. Is that? Is that true? In the Johnny 0:25:11.280 --> 0:25:14.399 language there is terms of animasy, and in animassy there 0:25:14.400 --> 0:25:16.960 are certain things that have animacy. When you speak about them, 0:25:17.000 --> 0:25:19.800 I would speak about them as individuals, much like I 0:25:19.840 --> 0:25:22.639 would speak about you, right, speak about you. So I 0:25:22.680 --> 0:25:25.119 would refer to them as human, not not humans, but 0:25:25.320 --> 0:25:28.520 as co living beings, and so they would occupy the 0:25:28.560 --> 0:25:31.520 same space in the landscape as I do. So this 0:25:31.600 --> 0:25:34.440 idea that we have from you know, uh, those of 0:25:34.520 --> 0:25:36.960 us brought up in Judeo Christian communities about how I 0:25:36.960 --> 0:25:39.439 Adam has stewardship over animals, you know, where he has 0:25:39.480 --> 0:25:42.440 some sort of that. It already builds this framework in 0:25:42.480 --> 0:25:45.720 your mind of some sort of organizational chart with Adam 0:25:45.720 --> 0:25:47.399 at the head and all these other animals and in 0:25:47.400 --> 0:25:50.480 the less round. No, this is totally different imaginal imaginal 0:25:50.560 --> 0:25:54.560 line stretched out to infinity, and humans and ants and 0:25:54.600 --> 0:25:56.760