1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:08,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. It was the largest Indian alliance that the United 2 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: States ever faced, the most effective, the greatest threat that 3 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:17,479 Speaker 1: the United States ever faced during the entire westward movement 4 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:21,799 Speaker 1: from the Alleghanies to the West coast. This is the 5 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: second episode in our Two comes To series where we'll 6 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: look at his life from seventeen seventy five through eighteen twelve. Originally, 7 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:34,880 Speaker 1: I had planned to title this one Uncommon Genius, which 8 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: is what US President William Henry Harrison called the Shawnee. 9 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: I decided, however, to use the declarative statement made by 10 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: the panther crossing the sky himself in response to intolerable 11 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:52,239 Speaker 1: encroachment while many of his own tribe were leaving and 12 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: heading west. Two comes To said, we shall remain. We're 13 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: going to learn the details of Two comes Is involvement 14 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: in the War of eighteen twelve, But most interesting to 15 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 1: me will explore the worldview differences of the Indians and 16 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: Europeans and how it was destined to fail. And we'll 17 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:15,559 Speaker 1: see that change is the only constant and predictable thing 18 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: on planet Earth. I wish I had good news for you, 19 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: but the waters continue to be murky. But this time 20 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 1: with blood, I really doubt you're gonna want to miss 21 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: this one. And suddenly, in the midst of the War 22 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: of eighteen twelve, too comes. It becomes He's still an enemy, 23 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: but he's an heroic enemy. He's a hero already with 24 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: an American American hero. My name is Clay Nukelem and 25 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: this is the Bear Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things 26 00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: forgotten but relevant, search for insight and unlikely places, and 27 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,559 Speaker 1: where we'll tell the story of Americans who live their 28 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: lives close to the land. Presented by f HF gear, 29 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:14,519 Speaker 1: American made, purpose built hunting and fishing gear. It's designed 30 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 1: to be as rugged as the places we explore. This 31 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: is a very traumatic time for tribal people in Indiana 32 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:32,799 Speaker 1: because they see their lands just being overrun. And the 33 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: Greenville Treaty, which assigned in seventeen guarantees to tribal people 34 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: the northwest third of Ohio, but opens up southern Ohio, 35 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: well the line doesn't hold. In other words, white settlers 36 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: come in and then they just cross on their own 37 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: and we call that now settler colonialism because the federal 38 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: government doesn't have any authority to stop them. And here 39 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: they come, and they're not supposed to be their hunting. 40 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: They are hunting the game. Number of game animals declines. 41 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 1: It's a it's a very it is a way of 42 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 1: life that is is crumbling around them, and they're not 43 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: exactly sure what to do. These lands are ours, and 44 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: no one has the right to remove us, because we 45 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: were the first proprietors. The Great Spirit above has appointed 46 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: this place for us to light our fires, and here 47 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: we shall remain as two boundaries. The Great Spirit above 48 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: knows no boundary, nor will his people acknowledge any. Two 49 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: Kumsa spoken to his followers in eighteen o seven. These 50 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: words were his response to the settler colonialism breaking the 51 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: Treaty of Greenville. They were definitive in certain words that 52 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: drew a line in the black dirt of Ohio. Before this, 53 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: he had been more diplomatic, more trusting of the Americans 54 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: who set across the table, making treaties and drawing boundary lines. 55 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: Two Cumsa was now thirty nine years old. His youthful 56 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: zealousness had slowly transformed into a calloused and unbreakable certainty 57 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: that would lead his followers into the most significant resistance 58 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: to American expansion east of the Mississippi and ultimately lead 59 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: him to his own death, which he would prophesy with 60 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:44,599 Speaker 1: his own mouth. Two cums To had told William Henry Harrison, 61 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: the governor of Indiana Territory, that he and hence Otawa 62 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 1: and their followers would abide by the treaties that have 63 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: been made to date, as wrong as they were, but 64 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: they would not yield another inch of land without fighting 65 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: the Americans. And in eighteen o nine, Harry Uson, for 66 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:06,280 Speaker 1: his own political reasons, decided to negotiate another nefarious treaty 67 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: for more land, more Indian land close to that part 68 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: of Indiana where the Shawnee Brothers were then living prophets Town. 69 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: And that was, you know, one treaty too many, and 70 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: that drew more adherence to the two cumps and Tankat 71 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 1: was caused Indies who otherwise we're not attracted by the 72 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: religious message, but more so by the political military part 73 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,239 Speaker 1: of it. Oh my god, the whites are they're pushing again. 74 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: They're pushing again. That was Peter Cozens, the author of 75 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: the acclaimed book Two Kumsa and the Prophet. On part 76 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: one of this series, we learned that two Cumsa was 77 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 1: born in Ohio into the panther clan of the Shawnees 78 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: under the tailings of a celestial sign. He lost three 79 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: father figures to murder and war with the white trespassers, 80 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 1: and his mother left him in Ohio and fled west 81 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: into Missouri. His oh older brother chis Aqua, tasked to 82 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 1: raise two comes To proclaimed that he'd rather let the 83 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: fouls of the air pick his bones and be buried 84 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: back at camp. Later he would also die from a 85 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:18,359 Speaker 1: white musket ball. These boys were fighters, visionaries, and loved 86 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: the traditional Indian way of life. Two comes To shared 87 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: and adopted father Blackfish with Daniel Boone and likely lived 88 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: in the same village as him for several months when 89 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: old dB was a Shawnee captive. While a teenager, Two 90 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: comes To broke his leg hunting bison on horseback and 91 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: walked with a notable limp his whole life. He was 92 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: known as one of the greatest hunters in the Shawnee nation. 93 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: In the guerrilla warfare of the late seventeen hundreds, he 94 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: became known as an uncanny war leader, displaying skill, wit 95 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 1: and bravery and nobility as he hated and disdained the 96 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: torture of prisoners, which was common. Almost everyone that wrote 97 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: about meeting Tacumsa spoke of his handsome appearance, magnetic drawl, 98 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: and his uncanny oratory skills. Some believe evidence by the 99 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: inspirational power he had over people, that he may have 100 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: been the greatest orator in American history. Ten Squintawa, the 101 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: younger brother of Tecumsa, had a transformative vision in eighteen 102 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: o five and became the spiritual spokesman, the prophet for 103 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: the most powerful Indian revival in history, persuading tribal people 104 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: to return to their traditional way of life, for going 105 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: alcohol and repenting of their white ways by rejecting the 106 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: technology and culture of the European interlopers. It comes to 107 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: join forces with his brother, for I mean a religious 108 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: and political movement that united the largest inter tribal group 109 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 1: of Indians ever assembled into a Pan Indian confederacy that 110 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: stood against the young giant, the United States. This is 111 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: all the stuff that we learned on episode one. General 112 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: Sir Isaac Brock said this about two Cumsa in eighteen twelve, 113 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: I found some extraordinary characters. He who attracted most of 114 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: my attention was a Shawnee chief two Cumpsa, brother to 115 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: the prophet who for the last two years has carried 116 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: on contrary to our remonstrances and active warfare against the 117 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: United States. A more sagacious or more galleant warrior does not, 118 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: I believe exist. He was the admiration of everyone who 119 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: conversed with him. Major General Brock was meeting with Twocumsa 120 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: to negotiate an alliance with the British to fight against 121 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: the Americans. Yep, our boy two comes A fought with 122 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: the Brits against America. That's a pretty good way to 123 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:55,839 Speaker 1: get a bad name around these parts. But somehow two 124 00:08:55,880 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: Cumsa emerged an American hero. I'm very interesting than that. 125 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 1: In eighteen oh seven, though, two COMPSA it had enough 126 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 1: and it was time to take up the hatchet. But 127 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:12,679 Speaker 1: even with that, to come say and thanks af how 128 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: it knew they didn't have the strength to take on 129 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: the Americans. They were not going to launch an offensive 130 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:19,839 Speaker 1: war even at this point, I mean they needed They 131 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: realized they needed to help with the British in Canada, 132 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: at least British arms and ammunition before they could begin 133 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: to put up a credible resistance to the Americans. Fast 134 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: forward a little bit more eighteen eleven, two COMPSA and 135 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:37,319 Speaker 1: William Henry Harrison had this contentious conference at the territorial 136 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 1: capital of Vincennes. Two comes to reiterates his message that 137 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: I'm trying to build a pan Ding alliance, not to 138 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: launch war against the Americans, but to defend what is 139 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: ours against any more encroachment byou. You're not going to 140 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: break us up piecemeal like you have in the past. 141 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: And oh, by the way, I'm going to head south 142 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: and take my message and then of my brother to 143 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: the tribe of the American South, the Chickasaw, the Cherokee, 144 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:07,959 Speaker 1: the Choctaw, and the Creeks, the great so called civilized 145 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: tribes of American South, all most of whish numbered about 146 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 1: twenty thousand people. These are strong tribes, he said, for 147 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:18,559 Speaker 1: the purpose of creating a united front. When Harrison heard that, 148 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: I mean he had a real high regard for Takoms. 149 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: In fact, he he wrote, was perhaps the greatest tribute 150 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 1: ever penned by an American leader to a potential Indian foe. 151 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: William Henry Harrison was the governor of the Indiana Territory 152 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: and would one day become the President of the United States. 153 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: On episode one. I ended with part of Harrison's famed 154 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: quote about twakumsa. It's so good, We're gonna listen to 155 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: it again, but this time in its entirety. I'll add 156 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: that this was extracted from a private letter, so we 157 00:10:55,000 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: can assume Harrison meant these words the deepest sincerity. I 158 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: may make this a ringtone on my phone. Here's what 159 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 1: William Henry Harrison said after his contentionous eighteen eleven conference 160 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:14,079 Speaker 1: with the with the Comps. The implicit obedience and respect 161 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: which the followers of two comes to pay to him 162 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:23,359 Speaker 1: is really astonishing, and more than any other circumstance bespeaks 163 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: him one of those uncommon geniuses which spring up occasionally 164 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: to produce revolutions and overturn the established order of things. 165 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: If it were not for the vicinity of the United States, 166 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: he would perhaps be the founder of an empire that 167 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: would rival in glory that of Mexico or Peru. He 168 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: meant the great, of course, great Indian empires. He went 169 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 1: on to say, no difficulties deter him his activity and 170 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: industry supply the want of letters. For four years he 171 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: has been in constant motion. See him today on the 172 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: Wabash River and in a short time you hear of 173 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: him on the shores of Lake Erie, or Michigan, or 174 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,439 Speaker 1: on the banks of the Mississippi. And wherever he goes, 175 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 1: he makes an impression favorable to his purposes. The rest 176 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: it comes in will be home the pioneering land us 177 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: the room. Come now, who can sell the air and 178 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: who can sell the sea? Who has right to sell land? 179 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: It for you? And comes? Get the words of this 180 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: folk song declare, two comes to get your rifle, Two 181 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 1: comes to get your gun for on the field tomorrow 182 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,839 Speaker 1: you'll meet with Harrison. Now who can sell the air, 183 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,439 Speaker 1: and who can sell the seat? Who has the right 184 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: to sell the land? Put here for you and me. 185 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: This song is by the Tillers, a cool folk band 186 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: out of Ohio. It's called two Comes on the back Attlefield. 187 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: It's written about the famous meeting of William Henry Harrison 188 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: and two Coomesa in August eighteen eleven. Harrison and two 189 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: Cumpsa had a classically romantic but very real and bloody 190 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: and not so romantic nineteenth century rivalry. They were arch 191 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: enemies but maintain respect for each other. It was just 192 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 1: a different time. I want to step outside of the 193 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 1: Chronology of two comes his life for a minute and 194 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 1: look into the Native American worldview. Having a view into 195 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 1: this is essential and understanding the dynamics of what was 196 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: actually happening when Indians and Americans met. Here is my friend, 197 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: historian and Cornell University professor Robert Morgan talking about the 198 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 1: way the Native Americans viewed warfare. The Anglo Saxons didn't 199 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,439 Speaker 1: see warfare as a ritualistic thing. As a spiritual thing, 200 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: you fought until you won, and if you lost, you 201 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: fought again. This certainly see it that way. There's a 202 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: ritual and you know, after a certain time, you go away. 203 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: That's what Cornstalk did at Point Pleasant. It's not at 204 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 1: all clear that General Lewis won at Point Pleasant. It's 205 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: in fact, it seems that Cornstalk and the and the 206 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 1: Shawnees may kill more people, but they got tired of fighting. 207 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: I mean, you don't just keep on forever, and and 208 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: Cornstalk I thought, you know, well, I'm tired of this. 209 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 1: I don't want to any more people kill or to 210 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: kill more people. So they just conceded and signed the treaty. 211 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: But it's it's not at all clear that they lost 212 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: that battle. In fact, it's not entirely clear that William 213 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: Henry Harrison won the battle of typical news. You could 214 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: kind of argue the other way, but he might have 215 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: just fought longer. Yeah, they wouldn't give up. I mean 216 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: there was different ways of thinking of warfare. Wow. You know, 217 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 1: that's what most confounds me is I try to just 218 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: get a small understanding of the Native American worldview at 219 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: that time versus kind of a Western worldview from the 220 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: white europe Ian's. It was almost like two different types 221 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 1: of beans from different planets were engaging with the cultures. 222 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 1: It's very hard for them to mix because they saw 223 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: themselves in the world in very different ways. The different 224 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 1: ways these two groups understood warfare is a significant factor 225 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: when the stakes are this high and immissible cultures what 226 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: an interesting phrase. The word admissible means not forming a 227 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: homogeneous mixture. When added together. Some of the greatest human 228 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: tragedies of history could be linked back to this problem. Generally, 229 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: people think that other people of the world view the 230 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 1: world the way they do, but they typically don't. Per 231 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: biological fact, all Homo sapiens share common ancestors, but the 232 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 1: human diaspora across planet Earth created such a long period 233 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: of separation geographically, it's as if it created a rift. 234 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 1: Even as thee as the human soul, the mind, will, 235 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: and emotions are known to represent what we call the soul. 236 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: And I think if we mind into that statement, we 237 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: find that the mind, will, and emotions of the Europeans 238 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 1: and the Native Americans were very different. And I want 239 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: to clarify that. I believe the human spirit is different 240 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: from the soul. It's what connects us all and defines 241 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: our humanity. Aside from the biological indicators, the spirit is 242 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: our common bond. It's certainly what makes humans different than 243 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: just highly evolved smart and monkeys. That modern trope is 244 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: intoxicated with its own sophistication and fallacious intercourse with the data, 245 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: making it unable to discern something that's undeniable and evident. 246 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: Humans are different than beasts. Noticed I didn't say better 247 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: by what system? Would you say one thing is better 248 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: than another? Humans do live by a different set of 249 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: rules than beasts. The human spirit, though, I believe, is 250 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: at the core of it all. It's what connected Harrison 251 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 1: and two KUMSA. It's wildly interesting to consider that the 252 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:13,119 Speaker 1: first Homo sapiens spread out of North Africa and the 253 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:18,159 Speaker 1: Middle East. Some headed west into Europe became the Chro Magnuts, 254 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,919 Speaker 1: and then the modern Europeans over EON's the pigment of 255 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: their skin paled in some magic biological adaptive potion influenced 256 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: by the long winters of the northern Hemisphere. Two Cumsa 257 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: would later call the descendants of these people pale faces. 258 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: In this diaspora, some humans went east, occupying Asia and 259 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:45,719 Speaker 1: eventually made an incomprehensible journey over the burying land bridge, 260 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 1: and perhaps some by ocean vessel from East Asia into 261 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: North America. The best guests we have is that this 262 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,920 Speaker 1: happened sometime in the vicinity of twenty thousand years ago, 263 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: and this continent was inhabited starting in the west and 264 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 1: moving east. Genetic evidence from archaeological sites and some modern 265 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: testing on indigenous people shows links back to Asia. However, 266 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 1: many Native American tribes have ancient stories of their arrival 267 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 1: onto this continent coming from the south, and I don't 268 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 1: dismiss their ancient arrival stories. Don't think for a second 269 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: that we know all the answers of the ancient world. 270 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: We just don't. The archaeological record in its most robust 271 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: form is a dim record. I have tremendous faith in 272 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: archaeology and science. I ain't no hater, flat earther or 273 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 1: science denier. I'm just saying interpretation of the data that 274 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 1: we have is just that, an interpretation and getting back 275 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: to our human diasporas story, if you'll allow me the 276 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 1: liberty to simplify a very complex story. A group of 277 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 1: people split up and started on journey from the same 278 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: spot North Africa the Middle East, but they headed in 279 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:11,159 Speaker 1: opposite directions on around planet. They met years later on 280 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: the American frontier, with vastly different ways of interpreting the 281 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 1: planet and what it meant to be a human. These 282 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 1: boys surely thought that the world was flat, so they 283 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:27,919 Speaker 1: couldn't have predicted that they'd meet again. There's even Biblical 284 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:32,199 Speaker 1: reference to this problem, this idea of immissible cultures and 285 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: the corresponding division that would produce difficulty in relationship. The 286 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 1: story of the Tower of Babel tells of men beginning 287 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: to work together with such effectiveness they believed they could 288 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: build a tower that reached heaven. They spoke the same 289 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:51,400 Speaker 1: language and exemplified great power. Their ego swelled to destructive 290 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: levels so God scrambled their language so they could no 291 00:19:55,400 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: longer collaborate. The strategy used to divide people was to 292 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: crash their communication. That's important on the American Frontier two. 293 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: It's believed there are six thousand languages spoken today on 294 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 1: planet Earth. The Shawnee language is one of them. You'll 295 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 1: remember Chief Ben Barnes from the last episode. He's essentially 296 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 1: the president of a functional and sovereign Indian nation today. 297 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,439 Speaker 1: I want to ask him about the Shawnee worldview, and 298 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: he immediately takes it right back to language. What's the 299 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 1: biggest difference in the Shawnee Indigenous worldview from classic Western thinker. 300 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 1: I have thought about that question too, So I didn't 301 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 1: start out. I had no desire to be chief at 302 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: the Shawnee, which is a place that I found myself 303 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 1: in and I thought, well, I think I have something 304 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 1: that I can you contribute here. And I found myself 305 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 1: in the right time when our former chief retired to 306 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 1: step into that role. But before that, my brother and 307 00:20:55,720 --> 00:21:00,199 Speaker 1: I was volunteering running the Shawnee Tribes language program. It 308 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 1: was those years of teaching language that I started to 309 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: understand how Shawnee is different and why it's different. So 310 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: in English and a lot of European language, you have 311 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: this subject verb relationship, that subject verb rightship is you 312 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 1: have a subject verb object. It's always subject object, almost 313 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: exclusively subject verb object here in North America and well 314 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: Central America too, you know, you know, in most of 315 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: the languages of this hemisphere, whereas the noun has primacy 316 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: in European languages, and that the subject. You want to 317 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: tell about the subject, the subject what it did, and 318 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:36,199 Speaker 1: that becomes your framework of understanding. It's always related to 319 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: the subject, and then all this other stuff. In Shawnee language, 320 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: the verb is the center of the universe. It's not 321 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 1: important who did it yet. Yeah, So the way you 322 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 1: frame your sentences, the way that you talk is centered 323 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 1: around that verb. Can you give me? Can you give 324 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: me an example? Example that I use is like, uh, 325 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 1: if there was an older there's an older lady. She 326 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: had always come to language class. She had better tendants 327 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 1: than even INTI instructors did. Her name was Rosa May Peterson, 328 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,199 Speaker 1: and Rosa May. She would come to classes. And so 329 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: if Rosa was to cook a traditional dish corn soup dish, 330 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 1: and I'll speak in English for this. So if Rosa 331 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: was to speak this the way I would say it, 332 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 1: and Shawnee would be cooked corn soup? Did rosame Peterson? 333 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 1: So I'm telling you that she cooked? And then why 334 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 1: did she cook? Oh, corn soup? I like corn soup. 335 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: Someone to put that at first, because it's important what 336 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 1: she cooked. Then who cooked it? So what who cooked? 337 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,639 Speaker 1: It's no big deal. But if my daughter, if I 338 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: could say my five year old daughter had cooked it, 339 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 1: I would want to make sure that that was the 340 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,880 Speaker 1: most important part of the story. You know, Brianna cooked 341 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: corn soup. So now I have this, She's like, can 342 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: you believe that? So the way that that when I 343 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: tell that to you, really she cooked that. So you 344 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,719 Speaker 1: understand there's a different emphasis. Now it's changing the episodes 345 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 1: like this is exceptional because occurred before the verb. So 346 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: what I just told you that was in front of 347 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 1: that verb is the most important thing what I'm telling you. 348 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:03,159 Speaker 1: So if i'm if you're coming to me and negotiating 349 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 1: a treaty and we're talking about what what the terms 350 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 1: are and what's going to happen, I am looking at 351 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: the verbs and you're looking for nowns. So it's in 352 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: the way that the things are being said are important. 353 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 1: The order that things are being said is what's important. 354 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: So that's a different worldview. You ought to just rewiden 355 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,880 Speaker 1: the tape and listen to that section again. It makes 356 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:28,199 Speaker 1: my gears spend backwards to realize how complex the situation was. 357 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 1: These people didn't understand each other. The structure of our 358 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 1: language displays our value system. In the Shawnee world, who 359 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 1: did something wasn't as important as what actually was done. 360 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: The individual is minimized and the community is the focus. 361 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: To Westerners, who did it is most important. But there's more. 362 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 1: That's a great answer to that question. It just gives 363 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: a window. And sometimes things as complex as that original question, 364 00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: sometimes you just get one little example and you kind 365 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: to see it. But from that you can see kind 366 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 1: of the core emphasis of the people was not so 367 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: me or I or person. You just hit the actual 368 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: center of the bulls on this one because it centers 369 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: the community. Your community has primacy. Community has primacy working 370 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,400 Speaker 1: from that Shawnee language framework, right whereas in other society 371 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: that's you know, now intruded on North American thought processes, 372 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 1: it becomes more into individualistic, I think, which is really 373 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: intriguing right now in the times we live in where 374 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:31,920 Speaker 1: we seems like we have lost our sense of identity 375 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: in terms of like our community. Right, it's like that 376 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: you've seen this weakness, of weakness of belonging to community, 377 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 1: and I think these little devices that we all all 378 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 1: carry that further divorced us from senses of phon he's 379 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,879 Speaker 1: got his phone of community. Yeah, Chief Ben Barnes is 380 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 1: shaking his phone in his hand to make a point 381 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: that our cell phones are disrupting traditional community. It's definitely 382 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:58,879 Speaker 1: an interesting idea. Here's another though very interesting component of 383 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,439 Speaker 1: Shawnee language and some of the indigenous languages. There was 384 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: no word for animal that separated man. There were just 385 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,159 Speaker 1: living beings. Is that? Is that true? In the Johnny 386 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: language there is terms of animasy, and in animassy there 387 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: are certain things that have animacy. When you speak about them, 388 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: I would speak about them as individuals, much like I 389 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,639 Speaker 1: would speak about you, right, speak about you. So I 390 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 1: would refer to them as human, not not humans, but 391 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: as co living beings, and so they would occupy the 392 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: same space in the landscape as I do. So this 393 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 1: idea that we have from you know, uh, those of 394 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: us brought up in Judeo Christian communities about how I 395 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 1: Adam has stewardship over animals, you know, where he has 396 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 1: some sort of that. It already builds this framework in 397 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: your mind of some sort of organizational chart with Adam 398 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:47,399 Speaker 1: at the head and all these other animals and in 399 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 1: the less round. No, this is totally different imaginal imaginal 400 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: line stretched out to infinity, and humans and ants and 401 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: bees and everything else is all in the same line. 402 00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: So they all have that same place of animacy. They 403 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,399 Speaker 1: all have the same ranking under the eyes of God. 404 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 1: That's very interesting and helps me make sense of their 405 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:10,399 Speaker 1: land ethic and how that overlapped with animals. Here's Robert 406 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: Morgan with a powerful aside on a fundamental difference between 407 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:20,199 Speaker 1: European and Native American world views. But deep in in 408 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: the Indian culture were things that the white people simply 409 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: could not understand, and one was identity. Everybody was a 410 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 1: human being, and they were more like in the Indian 411 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: concept than they were different, so that in the same 412 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: village you know of Ka Chillicotte, you could have from 413 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,959 Speaker 1: Mingos and some Delawares and some Cherokees, and they might 414 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: even spoke different languages, but they were all together everybody, 415 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 1: you know, the human beings and the white people could 416 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 1: they could be, through a certain ceremony, become a Shawnee Cherokee. 417 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 1: I mean Boone was a Shawnee. He was always a Shawnee, 418 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: and when he moved to Missouri he would see his relatives. 419 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 1: There is a very different sense of identity. When they 420 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,239 Speaker 1: did the cleansing of a white person to adopt him 421 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: into a Native American tribe, they really believed it. I mean, 422 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: it wasn't just we're just gonna do this whole thing, 423 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 1: and this guy is gonna work for us and help us, 424 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 1: but he's always going to be the white guy. It's 425 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 1: convincing that they really brought them into their families and 426 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: it was just like, this is one of us. The 427 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: Indians saw people defined by likeness, and European people saw 428 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 1: them defined by difference because they had that analytical scientific 429 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: mind where you separate things categories. Back to Aristotle, you 430 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,160 Speaker 1: define things by difference. This is this and that is that. 431 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: And the Indians thought metaphorically how things were like the 432 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: similarities to try to divide it. So this this is 433 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: a real you know, disadvantage of of Indians against these 434 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 1: Europeans that come in there and you know, as you 435 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 1: as you're telling me that, it's like my mind is 436 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:03,640 Speaker 1: spinning backwards, trying too clearly when you're talking about human beings. 437 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: The Native American the way they viewed humans was superior 438 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 1: way in many ways to see a person as as 439 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: a human being. They weren't looking for difference and then 440 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,120 Speaker 1: and but then in other parts, you know, I mean, 441 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 1: it just makes And maybe I'm saying this because I 442 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 1: am of white European descent to categorize things and to 443 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: think about things scientifically, and it's you know, that seems 444 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: like just a natural way to progress inside of the world. 445 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: I'm just it's it's it's almost confusing, even though it 446 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,919 Speaker 1: makes perfect sense, and it just it just feels like 447 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: such a set up for for failure of of that society. 448 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: For other people who think that civilization has been declining 449 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 1: ever since the Stone Age, over the Indians was still 450 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 1: in the Stone Age, and they thought of the world 451 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: metaphorically that they could see person and son like they've 452 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: given a name, that things were connect. So what we 453 00:28:56,040 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: perceive as an increase in society and civilization, like we're 454 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: sitting here now thinking we're way better off than them, 455 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: But maybe we aren't quite possibly that. You know, when 456 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: people started cultivating land, they began a decline. As opposed 457 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: to the hunter gatherers, they didn't have hierarchies in the 458 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 1: same way that if you have a cultivated land, you're 459 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 1: gonna have a town. You have a town, you've got 460 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: to have a temple, you gotta have a statue, and 461 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 1: you've gotta have a hierarchy. You're gonna have somebody in charge, 462 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 1: you have orders, and you define everything by difference. He's 463 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 1: a he's a colonel, he's a major, he's a landowner, 464 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 1: he's not. I'm not saying that's right, but it is 465 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 1: a theory that, yeah, since the Stone Age and the 466 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: age of hunter gatherers, there's been a decline in the 467 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: moral world. Since the Stone Age, the moral gauge of 468 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: the world has been declining, but it's camouflaged by the 469 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 1: increase in technology and knowledge, falsely making us think we're 470 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 1: actually getting better. I'm pretty sure our old boy Robert 471 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: Morgan just articulated for me a core message inside of 472 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: the Bear Grease ethos, and in a practical way, this 473 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 1: helps me understand the radically different ways of thinking between 474 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: these two different groups of people. We're going to get 475 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 1: back to Chief Ben Barnes. One of his main objectives 476 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: as leader of the Shawneese is to preserve their language. 477 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 1: Today they are less than two hundred and fifty people 478 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 1: that speak Shawnee. He told me. There are six thousand 479 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,959 Speaker 1: languages on the earth today, and by the year one 480 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: hundred they estimate that only two hundred and fifty will remain. 481 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: He said, every two weeks of language dies and mono 482 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: lingual speakers have a hard time understanding why this matters. 483 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: But other languages shape our ability to understand the world. 484 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 1: There are things happening in our lives and on this 485 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: planet that the English language doesn't have the words to 486 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: describe or understand that other languages might. That's a really 487 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 1: wild idea that makes me wonder what mono lingual people 488 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 1: are missing. It's mind boggling. I really wish there was 489 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 1: a way we could help Chief Ben Barnes and the 490 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: Shawnees save their language. This language carried a man two 491 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: Kumpsa that is believed to be one of the greatest 492 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 1: orators in American history. What did those guys here that 493 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 1: was locked inside of this Shawnee language? What mysteries lie 494 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: hidden within it. Here's the question the Chief Ben Barnes 495 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: about this Shawnee oratory skill, and hey, in just a minute, 496 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: we're gonna get back onto Twokumps's life. The Shawnee is 497 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 1: placed a high value on oratory skill, and that was 498 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: part of what two Kumpsa was known for, remembered for. 499 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: Why was that? I think that part of it is 500 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: also the culture in which we come from. And it's 501 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 1: not just unique to Shawny people. I have seen this, 502 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: and I don't want to man, I feel I want 503 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 1: to be cautious how I answer this, because I've noticed 504 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: the same oratory traditions with the traditional Maori people or 505 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 1: Hawaiian people, or folks from Hooding and a Shawny when 506 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: they deliver a guad know their Thanksgiving Day address. And 507 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: even when we go into ceremony and we've concluded those ceremonies, 508 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:25,479 Speaker 1: our speaker will stand up and he will give an 509 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: address to all assembled, and he will thank all of 510 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 1: creation for its existence. Can you imagine how long it 511 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 1: takes to thank the entirety of the creation for its 512 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: existence and for your forebearance for being present and having 513 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: to having to hunt and take from it, so that 514 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: takes a little while. So I think it's baked in 515 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 1: in a lot of the ways that we came up. 516 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: Does it Does it have to do with the kind 517 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: of egalitarian structure of of the tribe and that a 518 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: leader would have to be able to cast vision and 519 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 1: inspire people. That's what guys Westerners noticed when they came 520 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 1: over here and interacted with in the Jinas people is 521 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: like man when they speak, they speak with such in 522 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: such powerful speeches and whatnot. When Shawny people still occupied 523 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: at that point pleasant West Virginia area, there's a Logan 524 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: Seneca Cayuga. His family was butchered by a marauding Europeans colonists, 525 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 1: and the story is terrible, probably not even probably unfit 526 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 1: to even repeat some of what happened on your podcast. 527 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: When Logan returned from his hunting and came back home 528 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 1: and saw the murder that happened in his house and 529 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: his family the way they had been butchered, he lost it, 530 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 1: totally lost it. He was able to gather up a 531 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: force to oppose what was opposed, the settling of areas 532 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 1: that people we're not supposed to be living in, and 533 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 1: so that started a Logan's one. He was Seneca Cayuga, 534 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 1: but he a lot of young Shawnee people rallied to 535 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: his banner because they felt, you know, they've had empathy 536 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 1: for this, and he had a it's called Logan's lament. 537 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 1: We used to teach it in public schools. We taught 538 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,719 Speaker 1: it for a century in public schools. Can you imagine 539 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: trying to teach that now in in a in an 540 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 1: era where we can't say certain words, you know, But 541 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 1: they actually taught Logan's lament in public schools, and they 542 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 1: would do it for oratory classes when we used to 543 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 1: have dialectics and class when we used to you know, 544 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:19,840 Speaker 1: actually encourage kids to stand up in front of class 545 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:24,359 Speaker 1: and speak. Now we're doing TikTok's So yeah, but that's 546 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 1: what what what is Logan's limit? What? What was that 547 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: he Logan's all men, it's a it's a wonderful It 548 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,959 Speaker 1: is a wonderful and yet terrible and heartbreaking speech about 549 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 1: Logan and how basically a a prayer or a plea 550 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,319 Speaker 1: for empathy. And it's not structured that way, but when 551 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:44,919 Speaker 1: you're when you hear what he said, you can't be left, 552 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,280 Speaker 1: but your soul change a little you know and understand 553 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 1: like these are really terrible things that happened to indigenous people's. 554 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,959 Speaker 1: That's powerful stuff from Chief Barns. I want to now 555 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 1: jump back into Two comes his life with Peter Cozens 556 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: talking more about Oh William Henry Harrison and two Cumsa who, 557 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 1: if you remember, had just gone south to the Southern Trips. 558 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: Two comes to head to try to recruit more people 559 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 1: into the Pan Indian Confederacy. Well, of course what was 560 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:18,439 Speaker 1: favorable to his purposes was unfavorable to those of Harrison. Yeah, 561 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,279 Speaker 1: this is his arch enemy, our potential Irish enemy. So 562 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 1: two comes to go south. Harrison thinks, aha, thanks. Ottawa, 563 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 1: who everyone knows is not a military leader, not a 564 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: war leader, not even a warrior, is in Profits Town 565 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: on what is still Indian land by treaty, and Harrison 566 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,240 Speaker 1: decide he's going to launch a premptive strike and wipe 567 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,280 Speaker 1: them out while to comes is elsewhere. He he attacks 568 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,240 Speaker 1: Profits Town the Battle of typic Canoe. As a result, 569 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:48,919 Speaker 1: the Indians tactically lose the battle and that they flee 570 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 1: Profits Town and Harrison burns it. He returns to vincends 571 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,320 Speaker 1: and Trump it's this great victory and eventually runs this 572 00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 1: president on the typic Canoe and Tyler too. In fact, 573 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:03,840 Speaker 1: it was strategic defeat for Harrison because by launching this attack, 574 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 1: he caused even more Indians from farther away to Fox 575 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,719 Speaker 1: to the banner of takam San tans Matawa, if they 576 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,400 Speaker 1: realized that we're not even safe on land that is 577 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,319 Speaker 1: supposedly our own, the Americans are gonna get us. So 578 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 1: it backfired. It backfired and ignited more strength for the 579 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:26,440 Speaker 1: Pan Indian Confederacy. However, it didn't come from Tekumbsa's journey 580 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,719 Speaker 1: into the southern United States to the Creeks, Chickasaws, and 581 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: o s Ages. Harrison attacked tin Squintawa because Tekampsa had 582 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,959 Speaker 1: gone on an apostolic mission. If you remember, here's Dr 583 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 1: Dave Edmonds the University of Texas and Dallas talking about 584 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 1: why other tribes rejected this Pan Indian Confederacy in this 585 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 1: religious revival, you would feel like what he was promoting 586 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 1: would be accepted by every tribe. You. I mean, if 587 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,759 Speaker 1: you just said, hey, we got a guy that wants 588 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 1: you not all the tribes so that we can all 589 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:03,680 Speaker 1: keep our land in the United States, will be not 590 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: be able to come any further. I mean that sounds 591 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,879 Speaker 1: like it's such an easy sell. But he was rejected 592 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,240 Speaker 1: way more than he was. Well, he was accepted in it. 593 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,600 Speaker 1: It was because a lot of these tribes were had 594 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,919 Speaker 1: their own little interest going here. Yeah they had good 595 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 1: What what did they have coming from the government like 596 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,279 Speaker 1: well would lead you? Well, they had, they had some 597 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:27,799 Speaker 1: they had sometimes leaders had positions, the payments, sometimes they 598 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,239 Speaker 1: were being paid. Sometimes they felt that they should be 599 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 1: the sole owners of this particular and and wouldn't have 600 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,400 Speaker 1: to share it with other tribes. But this is not 601 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 1: so strange if you stop and think about it right now. 602 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 1: It makes sense right now to say to some people, 603 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,440 Speaker 1: you know, we've really got to do some make some changes. 604 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 1: Are the country is going to be in bad shape here. 605 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:47,440 Speaker 1: And but people said, oh no, man, I've got you know, 606 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 1: I got a job doing here. I don't want you know, 607 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: I don't want to lie pretty good my life is 608 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:52,800 Speaker 1: pretty good, or I don't want the coal industry to 609 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,399 Speaker 1: go away with the guys. Yeah right, I mean, so 610 00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 1: everybody's everybody their self interest involved in this. And one 611 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 1: thing about all of this, as a as a historian 612 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 1: of most of my life, history doesn't exactly repeat itself, 613 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 1: but it comes around pretty close. It seems like the 614 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: issues of human nature always come up when you put 615 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 1: a bunch of people in the spot. Humans are always 616 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 1: moving around and mixing around. This conflict, which has to 617 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,360 Speaker 1: do with land and has to do with two different 618 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:27,960 Speaker 1: cultures colliding, is really the story of planet Earth, and 619 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 1: rarely do the did the just win there? There's it 620 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 1: will be hard to it will be hard to say that. 621 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,120 Speaker 1: Look at it this way, though, I I understand what 622 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 1: you're saying. You know you can get on most of 623 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,880 Speaker 1: the pleasure. I think, oh my god, that's there's no Hopefully, 624 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:45,520 Speaker 1: people of goodwill will say, all right, things are going 625 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,760 Speaker 1: to gets back to change. Changes are going to take place. 626 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 1: What we want to do is to keep those changes 627 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 1: good changes, things that will benefit people and protect individual rights, etcetera. 628 00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 1: But you've got to they're going to take place. I mean, 629 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 1: giving an example right now, which is obvious to me. 630 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 1: Right now, people that were on the verge of electric cars, 631 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,480 Speaker 1: people say, oh my god, electric cars. Nobody can't have 632 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 1: electric cars. My gosh, what you gonna do? Plug them in? Well, 633 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 1: in about fifty sixty years probably, that's hard to believe. 634 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,400 Speaker 1: But when automobiles came in, people said they'll never have 635 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: those things. People will, well, what would you ever do? 636 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:28,040 Speaker 1: You'd run out of gas. There's gas stations everywhere, So 637 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,280 Speaker 1: I mean, that's kind of thing and it's hard to believe. 638 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 1: But who's you know, who's really fighting it? Companies and 639 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 1: for good reason from their perspective, because their interest their 640 00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: interests are there. Although there's probably enough other abuses for 641 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,839 Speaker 1: and that may be that may simplification, and there's it's 642 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,360 Speaker 1: easier to find, you know, holes in that argument. But 643 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,360 Speaker 1: generally speaking, you can make the same thing. The changes. 644 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:54,960 Speaker 1: The only the only constant, the only thing that you 645 00:39:55,000 --> 00:40:00,880 Speaker 1: can always have or rely on is change. The only 646 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,880 Speaker 1: thing we can rely on is change. That brings up 647 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,120 Speaker 1: a question that I don't really want to ask myself 648 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 1: for fear of the answer. How do we fight this 649 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,719 Speaker 1: change when it's bad for us and our people? Is 650 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:17,719 Speaker 1: it noble or wise to fight to the death for 651 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:22,319 Speaker 1: something you know is a losing battle? Really at the 652 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:26,360 Speaker 1: most fundamental level. Two come so was fighting against change, 653 00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:32,279 Speaker 1: albeit erratically unjust change. Here's more from Dr Edmonds. Let 654 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,640 Speaker 1: me give you a side of something which which this 655 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:39,080 Speaker 1: is not the same, but it's it's caused a tremendous 656 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:41,880 Speaker 1: amount of stress. We see the same thing here. I 657 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:43,360 Speaker 1: think a lot in a lot of a lot of 658 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 1: places in rural America. I grew up in a small 659 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 1: farm town. The town's almost gone. Everything's gone. What if 660 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,760 Speaker 1: you're a coal miner, everything's gone? You see the point, 661 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 1: it's it's a time of great trauma. You want to 662 00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:58,759 Speaker 1: you want to fight for your way of life. You 663 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,879 Speaker 1: do and and it it Maybe it may be hard. 664 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 1: It's very hard to do that, you know. I think 665 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:09,480 Speaker 1: sometimes this far past all of that trauma and many 666 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:13,360 Speaker 1: of us being on the side that really one in 667 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 1: a way, it's hard to understand that. But because it 668 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:20,399 Speaker 1: just seems so so black and white, like white Europeans 669 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,319 Speaker 1: basically pushed out, killed the land, a new way of 670 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,600 Speaker 1: life emerges. In other words, they want everybody to settle 671 00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,000 Speaker 1: down and be small farmers. Well that's not what I mean. 672 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,480 Speaker 1: The Shawnees farm. But women do the farming, not men. 673 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 1: And and it's the same thing coal miners today in 674 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,880 Speaker 1: West Virginia and the same thing. Yeah, it's it's the 675 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,560 Speaker 1: cool when you say it like that, it makes you 676 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 1: realize the real personal pain that would come as as 677 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:51,640 Speaker 1: you watched your collection, your way of life just designed 678 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,600 Speaker 1: down in front of you. Did the traditionalists ever win? 679 00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:01,799 Speaker 1: He rarely, because the problem is what happens is by 680 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,880 Speaker 1: that time there have been too many there's too much 681 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,120 Speaker 1: of the news ways that people have gotten used to. 682 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 1: What you could What you hope here is that you 683 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,880 Speaker 1: get the very best of the old tradition combined with 684 00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,160 Speaker 1: the new ways, and you you gradually work your way forward. 685 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,200 Speaker 1: That's the best of all worlds. That doesn't always happen. 686 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:23,520 Speaker 1: But you're right, No, they win sometimes for a short time. 687 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,160 Speaker 1: But but but but they don't win in the long run. 688 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,040 Speaker 1: It's kind of sad, isn't that. Yes, except they've got 689 00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:33,200 Speaker 1: to understand. I think that that the only constant in 690 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:35,680 Speaker 1: the world, probably the only thing. The only thing that 691 00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:41,160 Speaker 1: doesn't change is change. The only thing that doesn't change 692 00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:47,200 Speaker 1: is change. Godly, here's Peter Cozen's with the next step 693 00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:50,320 Speaker 1: into comes his life. The Battle of Tip of Canoe 694 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,680 Speaker 1: was in eighteen eleven, so that's where we are. Fast 695 00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:56,280 Speaker 1: forward a few months, a few more months into eighteen 696 00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,600 Speaker 1: twelve United States, Declaire's were in Great Britain. One of 697 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:02,680 Speaker 1: the reason is given is just trumped up idea that 698 00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:06,320 Speaker 1: the Indians are are launching raids on the northern frontier 699 00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:08,960 Speaker 1: of the United States because they're being controlled by the 700 00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:11,719 Speaker 1: British to do so, when in fact, the few raids 701 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:15,960 Speaker 1: that occurred were revenge raids as a result of Harrison's 702 00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:20,400 Speaker 1: attacking profits time. So Wor twelve begins, Two comes to 703 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,799 Speaker 1: and his allies make common cause with the British in 704 00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:28,439 Speaker 1: western Ontario. The British, who are badly outnumbered because they're 705 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,360 Speaker 1: busy fighting Napoleon in Europe, they're more than happy to 706 00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:35,200 Speaker 1: have Indian help. More and more Indians flocked to Two 707 00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:39,200 Speaker 1: Comes To and Tanks Platawa's banner. The British, in good 708 00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:42,640 Speaker 1: faith promised that if they beat the Americans, which they 709 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,480 Speaker 1: have every prospect of doing early in the world Atian twelve, 710 00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,320 Speaker 1: that they will grant Two comes To and Tanks Wattawa 711 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,920 Speaker 1: an Indian homeland which benefits both sides. For the British, 712 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,120 Speaker 1: it would be a buffer state between the United States 713 00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:59,319 Speaker 1: that wants to conquer Canada, and of course will give 714 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,080 Speaker 1: the Indians are on homeland and that would be modern 715 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:06,480 Speaker 1: day Michigan, Wisconsin, and whatever part of northern Ohio and 716 00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:10,400 Speaker 1: Indiana the British and Indians could conquer. The War of 717 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:15,000 Speaker 1: eighteen twelve went from eighteen twelve to eighteen fifteen and 718 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:20,279 Speaker 1: started because of British violations of US maritime rights. The 719 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,560 Speaker 1: US used the political excuse of the Indians who were 720 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:26,920 Speaker 1: being supplied by the British, and we're raiding US settlements. 721 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,880 Speaker 1: But behind this there were trade issues between British owned Canada, 722 00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:34,680 Speaker 1: the US and the French, and the US just wanted 723 00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:38,279 Speaker 1: Indian land. The British became allied with the Compsa and 724 00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:43,000 Speaker 1: promised him an Indian nation if they won. Here's more 725 00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:47,600 Speaker 1: from Peter. Two Compsa and his allies and the British 726 00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:52,799 Speaker 1: defeated the American Army, the only American army of consequence 727 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,480 Speaker 1: in the the Midwest, when they captured Detroit, Michigan in twelve. 728 00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:00,600 Speaker 1: Captured that army, drove the Americans out of mis Chigan 729 00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:04,440 Speaker 1: and northernmost Ohio, put them on the defensive for several 730 00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:08,479 Speaker 1: months and things were going their way. So and that 731 00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:11,920 Speaker 1: that was a big deal. This two Cumpsa and what 732 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:15,920 Speaker 1: he's doing, and these the British and the Indians there 733 00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:19,480 Speaker 1: for real. Yeah, the British could not have captured Detroit, 734 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,720 Speaker 1: which was the you know, the the American outposts in 735 00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:27,480 Speaker 1: the Midwest without two cumsa preceding that in western Ontario 736 00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:32,399 Speaker 1: two cumpsa, he and his Indian allies, with help of 737 00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:36,880 Speaker 1: what British were there, basically, through two cumbs of tactical planning, 738 00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:41,680 Speaker 1: were able to halt a tentative American invasion of Canada 739 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:45,720 Speaker 1: from Detroit. So Canada, and it's still recognizing Canada today 740 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:50,000 Speaker 1: that Canada owed its safety to twocumsa and then once 741 00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:52,960 Speaker 1: the British got up to strength, they were able to 742 00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,880 Speaker 1: capture Detroit with two cumbs as hell. Sounds to me 743 00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,879 Speaker 1: like Canada might have a different name if it weren't. 744 00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:05,400 Speaker 1: Two Comes a big if true. Big if true. Here's 745 00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:09,720 Speaker 1: Peter quantifying the influence and power two comes a rallied 746 00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:13,480 Speaker 1: against the United States. So here we are in the 747 00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:16,960 Speaker 1: latter part of eighteen twelve, and it's clear then, and 748 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:21,239 Speaker 1: it also is true in hindsight today. Two Comes at 749 00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:25,520 Speaker 1: the height of his power as an Indian military and 750 00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:30,920 Speaker 1: political leader, assembled nearly six thousand warriors from tribes all 751 00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:35,440 Speaker 1: across the Midwest to fight under him. And you compare 752 00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,640 Speaker 1: that to what the Indians were able to accomplish or 753 00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:41,440 Speaker 1: not accomplished in the West after the Civil War, during 754 00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:45,840 Speaker 1: the Great Indian Wars, the largest alliance ever existed in 755 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:49,919 Speaker 1: the American West was that of the Lakota also known 756 00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:54,440 Speaker 1: as a Sue Lakota and the Cheyenne. In eighteen seventy six, 757 00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:58,480 Speaker 1: under Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse, they brought together between 758 00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:03,040 Speaker 1: two thousand and twenty five undred warriors to oppose American expansion, 759 00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,719 Speaker 1: and that resulted, of course the Battle of a Little 760 00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,480 Speaker 1: Big Horn, among other things. But that was, you know, 761 00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,839 Speaker 1: less than forty the number of warriors that pledges their 762 00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:15,080 Speaker 1: allegiance to Twokumpsa, and that was only two tribes sore 763 00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:17,160 Speaker 1: able to get it together in the West to come 764 00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:20,640 Speaker 1: San tanks Patawa had followers more than a dozen tribes, 765 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:24,360 Speaker 1: and it was the largest Indian alliance that the United 766 00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:28,960 Speaker 1: States ever faced, the most effective, the greatest threat that 767 00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:33,440 Speaker 1: the United States ever faced. During the entire westward movement 768 00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:38,480 Speaker 1: from the Alleghanies to the West coast, two comes to 769 00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:42,400 Speaker 1: assembled the largest Native American forces ever rallied against the 770 00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:47,360 Speaker 1: United States. That is true, however, some would dispute the 771 00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:50,600 Speaker 1: actual size of his force and say it wasn't that big. 772 00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,400 Speaker 1: I guess we'll never really know. It's kind of like 773 00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:55,759 Speaker 1: the question of did he actually kill forty deer in 774 00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,920 Speaker 1: three days? We don't know, and it doesn't really matter. 775 00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:01,680 Speaker 1: He was just a great hunter. Well. Tecumsa was an 776 00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:05,840 Speaker 1: incredible war leader and rallied an incredible Native American force 777 00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,640 Speaker 1: against the United States. And remember this man wasn't even 778 00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:13,200 Speaker 1: the chief, he was just a dude. We all know 779 00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:16,880 Speaker 1: the outcome of the War of eighteen twelve two Comes 780 00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:21,000 Speaker 1: in the British would lose. Here are some interesting thoughts 781 00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:24,799 Speaker 1: from Peter on what might have been. For those who 782 00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:27,359 Speaker 1: read my book Two Comes in the Private, it will 783 00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,759 Speaker 1: become evident that there are a number of instances in 784 00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:33,480 Speaker 1: which the British and Tecumsa and thanks about how it 785 00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:36,759 Speaker 1: could have prevailed, and if they had, it would have 786 00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:40,040 Speaker 1: really changed the courts of American history. Michigan at a minimum, 787 00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:44,719 Speaker 1: would have remained in Indian hands and Wisconsin in Minnesota 788 00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:47,799 Speaker 1: for at least at least one or two generations, if 789 00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:51,480 Speaker 1: not more. That would have slowed the west movement westward 790 00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:54,479 Speaker 1: because at the time, I mean, the first westward path 791 00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:57,040 Speaker 1: was the Ohio River. And uh, you know, if you 792 00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:00,279 Speaker 1: didn't have the Midwest under American control, you couldn't really 793 00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:03,120 Speaker 1: considered settling the West, so it would have would have 794 00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:06,279 Speaker 1: retarded that. It also would have would have affected the 795 00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:09,279 Speaker 1: outcome of the American Civil War potentially because though you 796 00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:13,400 Speaker 1: wouldn't have had you know, Michigan, Illinois, Minnesota was const 797 00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,640 Speaker 1: possibly in an union cause, so it could have profoundly 798 00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:21,040 Speaker 1: changed the shape of American history. And that almost happened. Yeah, 799 00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:25,440 Speaker 1: they were early enough in the movement of westward expansion 800 00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:29,160 Speaker 1: that they absolutely could have changed the course they could 801 00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:32,200 Speaker 1: have some historians, you know, and I have to confess 802 00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:34,520 Speaker 1: that when I started this project, I sort of saw 803 00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:36,719 Speaker 1: it as a pre ordained that to come to and 804 00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:39,240 Speaker 1: his brothers were gonna lose. I kind of just figured 805 00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:41,600 Speaker 1: there's no way that they could have prevailed over the 806 00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:45,040 Speaker 1: Americans when they were you know, several million Americans in 807 00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:48,640 Speaker 1: the United States at the time, and no more than 808 00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:52,759 Speaker 1: seventy thousand Indians in the Midwest, not all of whom 809 00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:56,040 Speaker 1: even supported two comes in and the profit. But the 810 00:49:56,120 --> 00:50:00,880 Speaker 1: United States was so inept militarily and as of war progressed, 811 00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:03,600 Speaker 1: began more and more to lose its will to fight, 812 00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:08,520 Speaker 1: and once the British defeated Napoleon, they were able to 813 00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:13,359 Speaker 1: send over more troops to fight in Canada. And unfortunately 814 00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,319 Speaker 1: that happened a little too late for two Comes and 815 00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:20,160 Speaker 1: Thanks Latawa to prevail. But if the British had defeated 816 00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:24,520 Speaker 1: Napoleon maybe a year earlier, and if the Americans had 817 00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:28,360 Speaker 1: not won this great naval battle on Lake Erie in 818 00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:33,040 Speaker 1: eighteen thirteen, which severed the British supply line back into 819 00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:37,400 Speaker 1: Canada and forced the British to abandon Western Ontario. You know, 820 00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:40,120 Speaker 1: if the Americans had lost at Lake Erie, that would 821 00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:44,680 Speaker 1: have prevented the Harrison from taking launching a counter offensive 822 00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:47,600 Speaker 1: until the next year. Potentially by then there would have 823 00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,479 Speaker 1: been more British in Canada, many more British. I could 824 00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:53,480 Speaker 1: easily conceive of a of a scenario in which the 825 00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:57,239 Speaker 1: Americans would have just given up the war and uh 826 00:50:57,280 --> 00:50:59,680 Speaker 1: and and yielded Michigan. We kind of take it for 827 00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:02,520 Speaker 1: grant it now on this side of history that America 828 00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:06,080 Speaker 1: goes from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and you know 829 00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:09,879 Speaker 1: just that this is America. But at the time this 830 00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:12,440 Speaker 1: what we know today was in America. Yeah, I mean, 831 00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:14,080 Speaker 1: we had we had a lot of the West on 832 00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,200 Speaker 1: paper to Louisiana purchase. But that was that wouldn't be 833 00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:19,839 Speaker 1: pretty irrelevant if we if we lost part of the 834 00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:22,480 Speaker 1: United States East and Mississippi in the War of eighteen twelve. 835 00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:26,440 Speaker 1: Playing the what might have been game can sometimes be 836 00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:30,120 Speaker 1: helpful in understanding the complexity of how things came to 837 00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:32,120 Speaker 1: be as they are, and how if stuff had just 838 00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:34,680 Speaker 1: been a little bit different, they wouldn't be as they are. 839 00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:38,840 Speaker 1: Do you remember the first question we asked on episode one? 840 00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:42,280 Speaker 1: It was why is two Comes, who was an enemy 841 00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:46,840 Speaker 1: of the United States considered an American hero. Here's a 842 00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:51,000 Speaker 1: saddlebag full of insight from Peter Cousen's on that very thing. 843 00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:55,880 Speaker 1: To meet two Comes. He really was fighting for a 844 00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:58,840 Speaker 1: dying way of life, and it's it's really a pretty 845 00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:02,560 Speaker 1: common in human history for people to do that. The 846 00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:06,560 Speaker 1: story of humanity has been the breakdown of society's breakdown 847 00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:11,120 Speaker 1: of cultures. Cultures rise up, and then cultures whatever happens 848 00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:15,000 Speaker 1: that they change, and there's there's always fighters that are 849 00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:18,560 Speaker 1: wanting to keep things the way they were. I couldn't 850 00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:22,160 Speaker 1: have expressed it better myself. It's absolutely right. And just 851 00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:24,239 Speaker 1: to add to what you what you said, would like 852 00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:27,080 Speaker 1: to say, is spot on my mind. What's remarkable too 853 00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,319 Speaker 1: about to come. So as he was fighting for that 854 00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:30,879 Speaker 1: way of life. I mean, he was, like you say, 855 00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:33,600 Speaker 1: fighting for a way of life. This was an existential war. 856 00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:36,640 Speaker 1: I mean at one battle during the War of eighteen twelve, 857 00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:39,880 Speaker 1: the Battle of Fort Meg's in Ohio, and the Indians 858 00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:42,640 Speaker 1: and British wanted to take that fort because that was 859 00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:45,040 Speaker 1: going to be the jumping off point for Harrison whenever 860 00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:49,560 Speaker 1: he didn't launch a counter offensive. And so they besieged 861 00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:52,279 Speaker 1: the fort. And during the course of the siege in 862 00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:56,680 Speaker 1: May of eighteen thirteen, some nine Kentucky volunteers come up 863 00:52:56,680 --> 00:53:00,239 Speaker 1: the river in flatboats to reinforce William Henry Harry and 864 00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:03,279 Speaker 1: his beleaguer Garrison. So the Americans are trapped there. They're 865 00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,359 Speaker 1: British and and two comes and his Indians have them 866 00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:10,960 Speaker 1: surrounded up the river. Come these Kentucky volunteers, which is 867 00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:13,839 Speaker 1: totally surprised as the British and comes up. A pitch 868 00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:19,160 Speaker 1: battle is fought the Kentuckians, I mean there's they're untrained. 869 00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:22,160 Speaker 1: About a little under the third of them get into 870 00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:26,920 Speaker 1: the Fort Meg's. Okay, The majority, however, allured by the 871 00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:30,360 Speaker 1: Indians into an ambush on the far side of the 872 00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:33,719 Speaker 1: river from Fort Meg's, almost six hundred of them are captured. 873 00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:36,920 Speaker 1: Now Comes was not on the spot at that moment, 874 00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:40,160 Speaker 1: but he rides over just as of fighting has ended 875 00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:44,080 Speaker 1: and the Kentuckians are being crowded into the ruins of 876 00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:47,840 Speaker 1: this old British fort and some of the victorious Indians 877 00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:52,160 Speaker 1: have begun to club Endeth shown to death, tomahawk him 878 00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:54,480 Speaker 1: to death. I mean, you've got these these almost six 879 00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:57,600 Speaker 1: hundred Kentuckians like piled on top of each other, being 880 00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:01,120 Speaker 1: pressed against one another, and is the ruins of this fort. 881 00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:04,680 Speaker 1: In one instance, a British century tries to protect them 882 00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:08,960 Speaker 1: and the Indians shoot him and call me yankee, and uh, 883 00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:10,920 Speaker 1: I mean all hell had broken out, and it was 884 00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:14,279 Speaker 1: if someone didn't intervene, it was clear that Kentuckians are 885 00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:17,319 Speaker 1: gonna be slaughtered. And literally when it comes to hears 886 00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:20,360 Speaker 1: of this, he rise into this scrum and is able 887 00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:24,680 Speaker 1: to separate the Indians who are tomahawking, you know, massacring 888 00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:28,280 Speaker 1: the prisoners from the Kentuckians, bring order out of chaos 889 00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:32,560 Speaker 1: and stop the slaughter, and the Kentuckians either recognize him 890 00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:37,120 Speaker 1: as Takumsa or learn that this is Takumsa here now, 891 00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:39,799 Speaker 1: and I mean they of course they owe their life 892 00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:43,560 Speaker 1: to two comes and they are paroled a few months later. 893 00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:46,680 Speaker 1: Take the story back to Kentucky. Tell if T comes 894 00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:49,600 Speaker 1: to saving their lives and suddenly, in the midst of 895 00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:52,000 Speaker 1: war of eighteen twelve, two comes to becomes. He's still 896 00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:54,759 Speaker 1: an enemy, but he's an heroic enemy. He's a hero 897 00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:59,520 Speaker 1: already when American hero. Because you have to remember another 898 00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:02,640 Speaker 1: keep point here is that Takumsa, as a political military 899 00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:05,960 Speaker 1: leader among the Indians, he had no institutional means of 900 00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:10,360 Speaker 1: controlling his followers. All the influence he had was based 901 00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:15,520 Speaker 1: on his personal magnetism, his his personal courage, his personal example. 902 00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:20,080 Speaker 1: He had no institutional means to compel his followers to 903 00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:23,080 Speaker 1: obey him. So he's riding in there on the on 904 00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:26,840 Speaker 1: the basis of his charisma alone, and he's risking his 905 00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:29,239 Speaker 1: life to save the lives of those who would end 906 00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:31,960 Speaker 1: his way of life. I mean, if that isn't incredible, 907 00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:34,440 Speaker 1: I don't know what is. It was at that battle 908 00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:37,400 Speaker 1: that we did the legendary T comes to a rose 909 00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:40,440 Speaker 1: in the United States. Wow, you know we're fighting someone 910 00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:43,440 Speaker 1: who is not only fighting war as we would like 911 00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:46,480 Speaker 1: to see war fought, respecting the lives of prisoners, but 912 00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:50,160 Speaker 1: he's doing it brilliantly, and even in defeat he becomes 913 00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:56,200 Speaker 1: He becomes early on an American folk hero. Even in defeat, 914 00:55:56,280 --> 00:55:59,799 Speaker 1: he became an American folk Hey. Robe, So there's the 915 00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:03,920 Speaker 1: answer to our first question. We began this episode with 916 00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:07,640 Speaker 1: a powerful statement by two Cumpsa when he said, we 917 00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:12,919 Speaker 1: shall remain. Though our story isn't finished yet, We've got 918 00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:16,520 Speaker 1: one more episode. The very fact that a man into 919 00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:20,800 Speaker 1: cumbs his lineage, a lineage of Shawnee leaders spoke on 920 00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:25,240 Speaker 1: this series. Chief Ben Barnes shows us that two Cumpsa 921 00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:31,000 Speaker 1: was right. Despite unthinkable trials to shawn Needs two Cumpsa 922 00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:36,200 Speaker 1: and ten Swaddow as people are still here. They have remained. 923 00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:40,480 Speaker 1: Part three in this series is going to be called 924 00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:45,279 Speaker 1: two Cumpsa's Death. I really don't think you're gonna want 925 00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:49,720 Speaker 1: to miss it. I can't thank you enough for listening 926 00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:54,440 Speaker 1: to bear Grease. I'm moved by these stories. Consider it 927 00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:57,120 Speaker 1: a privilege to be able to tell them to you 928 00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:01,600 Speaker 1: through the veiled lens of my understand ending. I'm learning 929 00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:04,040 Speaker 1: as I go and I hope that you are too. 930 00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:08,480 Speaker 1: You can follow me on Instagram, the dad Gum, TikTok, 931 00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:12,800 Speaker 1: The Book of Faces, and even at LinkedIn Clay Underscore 932 00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:16,120 Speaker 1: Nukele or whatever Clay Nukele. Please leave us a review 933 00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:20,160 Speaker 1: on iTunes and share our podcast with a friend. This week, 934 00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:23,640 Speaker 1: I can't wait to talk this over with the folks 935 00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:26,520 Speaker 1: on the Render. I hope you have a great week.