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Speaker 1: The volume.

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Speaker 2: Well, I just finished it. I was so excited. I

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Speaker 2: just flew from Naples back to Chicago and I read it.

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Speaker 2: It's called The Bookie Inside the High Stakes World of

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Speaker 2: Sports Betting, a legendary bookmaker's tale of gangsters, celebrities and

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Speaker 2: the art of the game. All the proceeds from the

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Speaker 2: book you are going to Art's two favorite charities, World

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Speaker 2: Wildlife Fund and Blood Cancer United. This is fun for

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Speaker 2: me because, as many of you know, if you've listened

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Speaker 2: to me for years, I've talked a great length about

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Speaker 2: my Las Vegas being my first job out of college. Well,

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Speaker 2: one of the people that was at the center of

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Speaker 2: it and around it, one of the most recognizable people

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Speaker 2: who was building his own career was Art Man Terras,

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Speaker 2: who started at Caesar's, moved to the Hilton, where I

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Speaker 2: spent almost every Saturday and Sunday as a young sportscaster.

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Speaker 2: So let's start with that. There's so many things to

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Speaker 2: get to, and I want to take this because a

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Speaker 2: lot of this stuff I want you to explain to

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Speaker 2: the audience. Some of this stuff I knew I am

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Speaker 2: briefly in the book, and yes, I did introduce you

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Speaker 2: to your wife Sue beautiful, elegant, smart, all the great things,

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Speaker 2: and I hope she's doing well.

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Speaker 3: I know she is.

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Speaker 2: Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful kids, absolutely stunning beautiful kids. So when

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Speaker 2: you think of Caesar's Palace, I'm a guy from a

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Speaker 2: small town. You go to Vegas, you think Caesar's Palace.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's Harry Gluck, it's big money. It's like

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Speaker 2: just Steve Wynn is becoming this big architect in Vegas

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Speaker 2: and you Caesar says, Art, get in here and organize

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Speaker 2: our sports book. And I'm reading your stories. It was

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Speaker 2: a mess, and it's amazing that this industry has grown

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Speaker 2: so much. Take the audience to when you went into

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Speaker 2: Caesars the back room to organize their sportsbook and what

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Speaker 2: you saw.

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Speaker 1: Well, you're right that you know, in the early days

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Speaker 1: of the sportsbook industry that I joined in nineteen eighty,

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Speaker 1: it was far different from the industry today, and there

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Speaker 1: wasn't a whole lot of procedures and policies in place,

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Speaker 1: and some of the sports books were pretty chaotic.

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Speaker 3: Now, in fairness to some of the other.

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Speaker 1: Executives at Caesars, they were hoping to do and wanting

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Speaker 1: to do the same things out that I did. And

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Speaker 1: certainly the finance and audit people were a big help.

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Speaker 1: And once they knew that they had somebody that wanted

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Speaker 1: to clean things up, wanted things to be run legitimately

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Speaker 1: and properly and within the Gaming Control Board standards, compliance standards,

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Speaker 1: they were very very helpful also.

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Speaker 3: But yes, it was chaotic in those days.

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Speaker 1: There was very few house rules, very few standards of

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Speaker 1: operational standards, and I think I was able to establish

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Speaker 1: a lot of those policies that are still in place

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Speaker 1: today in a lot of casinos.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you and Chuck Esposito were the two guys I

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Speaker 2: always trusted. I always thought you guys had kind of

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Speaker 2: an everyman quality. And I don't think people understand this.

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Speaker 2: There were people that I knew, like lem Banker. I

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Speaker 2: didn't know Billy Walter's at the time, and Lamb could

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Speaker 2: be very manipulative, rest in peace and very much as showman.

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Speaker 2: And you know, lim wanted what Limb wanted. But when

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Speaker 2: you started in this business, you know, I'm very naive.

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Speaker 2: You know, I just figured, you know, the big guys

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Speaker 2: had phone accounts, but they weren't working the edges. It

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Speaker 2: was a big operation, but you had real run ins

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Speaker 2: with Billy Walter or a lem banker. And let's talk

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Speaker 2: about the most famous of the gamblers, Billy Walter. And

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Speaker 2: how art you listen? You're paid by the Hilton or Caesars.

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Speaker 2: This is a legitimate operation. Those guys didn't want to

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Speaker 2: play by your rules.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, I respect the folks that you're mentioning.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I certainly respect their abilities as handicappers. They were

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Speaker 1: both uh, top notch and I and I respect that,

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Speaker 1: but they were adversaries.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: They weren't friends and partners or colleagues. They were adversaries,

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Speaker 1: and and and and certainly, uh that left a real

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Speaker 1: divide and and so no, I didn't get along real

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Speaker 1: well with with.

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Speaker 3: Certain high end sophisticated players.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 3: You know, they threatened my bottom line.

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Speaker 1: And you know, and I said to to to a

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Speaker 1: few people in recent weeks that you know, you know,

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Speaker 1: you know, maintaining compliance, maintaining the gambling license of a

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Speaker 1: company I always viewed as my top priority. Second was

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Speaker 1: guest service for everyone, and and and third was revenue.

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Speaker 1: But that nevertheless the bottom line in all of that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, guest service is great, you know, having great

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Speaker 1: television screens and audio systems and computer systems that function properly.

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Speaker 1: That's all an important part of the business. But making

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Speaker 1: money is still the bottom line, and it's still after

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Speaker 1: all a said and done, and it's still about making money.

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Speaker 1: And there were certain people they wanted mine and I

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Speaker 1: wanted theirs, and that doesn't always lead to the most

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Speaker 1: comfortable relationships.

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Speaker 2: So I didn't know what runners were until I met

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Speaker 2: people like you or Chuck Esposito, And you know, I'd

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Speaker 2: sit down and be asking a million questions because I

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Speaker 2: was curious about the industry and I always love betting football,

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Speaker 2: and you had to battle runners. A runner is somebody

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Speaker 2: who is making bets for a whale, making bets for

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Speaker 2: a billy, and you know, he just can't walk in.

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Speaker 2: He can get banned or you're gonna have limits on him.

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Speaker 2: And his way around that is I'm gonna have thirty

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Speaker 2: guys is spread them around the city. Could you tell,

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Speaker 2: because you know you had your guys, your tellers, could

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Speaker 2: you tell that's a runner that's not. I mean, how

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Speaker 2: difficult was that for you? That game of cat and mouse?

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Speaker 3: Well, it was difficult.

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Speaker 1: And in Nevada there's there are regulations prohibiting what's called

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Speaker 1: messenger betters, and that you know, slang term is runners,

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Speaker 1: of course, but that but they are the folks that

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Speaker 1: are paid to wager on behalf of others. And by

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Speaker 1: the way, just coincidentally, in recent months, New Jersey has

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Speaker 1: passed laws banning proxy wagering as it called in there

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Speaker 1: as it's called in their regulations, and that that prohibits

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Speaker 1: people from using other people's phone accounts. And that's you know,

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Speaker 1: very very similar in result and answer to your question.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes not always, but sometimes you know, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: if there would be certain tip offs if you believed

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Speaker 1: somebody was runner, and and and certainly if you with

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Speaker 1: today's technology, you could see point spread movement around the industry.

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Speaker 1: And and you know, my long standing statement to my

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Speaker 1: staff was, well, either this guy has ESP or he's

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Speaker 1: working with somebody else, because yeah, if the line's changing

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Speaker 1: across the industry simultaneously as somebody's playing, that's a pretty

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Speaker 1: fair indication of where the source of those funds might

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Speaker 1: be coming from. But there's no tried and true standard

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Speaker 1: answer that gives me or anyone else the ability to

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Speaker 1: determine that definitively. It's a pretty tough question to answer,

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Speaker 1: but there are indications.

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Speaker 3: And I always try.

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Speaker 1: I always tried to err on the side of caution

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Speaker 1: rather than the side of leniency.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's a story when I was a kid

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Speaker 2: growing up, the most well known NBA official was Earl Strom.

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Speaker 2: He was very boisterous. He was very very much theater

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Speaker 2: and charismatic. And there's a story in your book about

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Speaker 2: and this just goes to show you the lengths. You

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Speaker 2: didn't have the Internet back then. I mean it was

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Speaker 2: basically you tell a story about to get to figure

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Speaker 2: out because gamblers felt like, oh, he has a tendency

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Speaker 2: to blank as a ref or do this. It's not rigged,

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Speaker 2: it's not throwing a game. But referees are human, they

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Speaker 2: have tendencies. For years and years, there were certain officials

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Speaker 2: that just were willing to give the road team, maybe

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Speaker 2: Steve Javvy. For years, I always was told that, hey,

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Speaker 2: he'll go into a harsh arena, he'll give the road

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Speaker 2: team the call. He won't be intimidated like maybe young

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Speaker 2: refs or college refs. But tell the Earl Strong story

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Speaker 2: because I thought that was fascinating.

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Speaker 1: Well, there was a very sophisticated gambler who I was

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Speaker 1: friendly with, very friendly with. I actually played softball together.

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Speaker 1: He was a terrific slow pitch softball pitcher and one

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Speaker 1: of those old timers that really knew the game, and

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Speaker 1: we were very friendly. I didn't realize the extent of

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Speaker 1: his sophistication as a sports better because again, he wasn't

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Speaker 1: making most of his bets in person. Others were, so

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Speaker 1: I didn't put it put two and two together for

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Speaker 1: for for quite some time. But later he did tell

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Speaker 1: tell me the story of how he would track earl

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Speaker 1: Strom because he believed that he had strong tendencies and

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Speaker 1: and and he believed that his officiating could could could

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Speaker 1: dramatically affect NBA totals, and and he you know, his

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Speaker 1: his total bets were were based in large part on

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Speaker 1: where earl Strom was going to be officiating, and and

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Speaker 1: and as you said, there was no internet back then, so.

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Speaker 2: He was officiating the games.

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Speaker 1: Well, he had somebody following earl Strom to determine what

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Speaker 1: what city he was flying to.

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Speaker 3: That just cracks me up.

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Speaker 2: Basically, earl Strom had spies Earl's in Detroit tonight bet the.

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Speaker 3: Over, Yes, that's that's right.

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Speaker 2: So what happens in your career. I fell in love

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Speaker 2: with boxing when I moved to Vegas, and there there

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Speaker 2: are times it could be a PAQIAW. Mayweather fight or

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Speaker 2: a Buster Douglas Tyson fight where by proxy you have

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Speaker 2: information that is kind of viewed as inside information. What

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Speaker 2: do you do when you know something maybe you shouldn't know,

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Speaker 2: You stumble on it, or you're so connected art you

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Speaker 2: just find things out right in those instances, if you

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Speaker 2: could take the audience through one or two of those

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Speaker 2: where that is that a dilemma for you?

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Speaker 3: It absolutely is a dilemma.

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Speaker 1: And you know, for many years, particularly after you left,

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Speaker 1: you left Las Vegas, I got real involved in boxing.

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Speaker 1: I was very involved in signing big fights and operating

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Speaker 1: the fights and being part of the publicity tours for

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Speaker 1: various big fights.

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Speaker 3: And I never saw, I never thought anything about it.

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Speaker 3: It was just part of my job.

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Speaker 1: And I love doing I love being around boxing, I

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Speaker 1: love running sports books.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and so so you know, it didn't it didn't

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Speaker 3: bother me.

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Speaker 1: I didn't feel any any any great conflict, uh until

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Speaker 1: the until the Mayweather pack yea fight, And in that fight,

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Speaker 1: I did, uh find out some very very important inside

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Speaker 1: information and and and it left me in a real dilemma.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 1: Before the fight, I was told straight up that pack

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Speaker 1: Yell was hurt and could not win the fight. And

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Speaker 1: and and and and when you watch the fight, that's

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Speaker 1: exactly what happened. That he was one armed fighter that night.

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Speaker 1: Uh he immediately had shoulder surgery shortly after the fight.

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Speaker 3: And and and and and and it.

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Speaker 1: Became crystal clear to me that there must be a

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Speaker 1: very clear separation between participation in sports, including on the

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Speaker 1: promotional end, and and and gambling on sports and and

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Speaker 1: and I've preached that message ever since. And and I

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Speaker 1: did work for the NBA as a consultant for many

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Speaker 1: has and of course they loved that message, uh, as

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Speaker 1: did other as did the other leagues, you know, because

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Speaker 1: I would be at various conferences and speaking engagements and

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Speaker 1: and and and you know, I felt very u a

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Speaker 1: great deal of camaraderie, camaraderie with the leagues on on

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Speaker 1: that issue. That that's why calling the the the the

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Speaker 1: embracing of gambling now by the leagues.

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Speaker 3: That have been surprising to me, you know.

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Speaker 1: I mean I knew that there was going to be

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Speaker 1: some cooperation data sharing, for example, with for in play

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Speaker 1: wagering UH videos signals into casinos and sports books, of course,

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Speaker 1: is another form of cooperation. And I that that I

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Speaker 1: certainly expected. But the but the the the amount of

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Speaker 1: UH official sponsorships and official partnerships with the gambling companies

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Speaker 1: that that has UH that has really UH surprised me,

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Speaker 1: and and and and and I think that that message

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Speaker 1: can't stand. It's not going to stay there forever because

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Speaker 1: there's going to be pushed back inevitably.

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Speaker 3: And you know, and I look around the world, the

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Speaker 3: world of sports game. You know, you look to Europe, where.

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Speaker 1: Sports gambling has been legal now for something like twenty

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Speaker 1: five years or thirty years, and sportsbook advertising is not

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Speaker 1: lead and there's great pushback now in the UK and

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Speaker 1: Ireland and the Netherlands, in Germany and elsewhere around the world.

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Speaker 1: The US, of course, is still going one hundred miles

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Speaker 1: an hour the opposite direction. And you know, I think

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Speaker 1: that's a terribly mixed message that the leagues are trying

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Speaker 1: to send right now. You know, they tell their players

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Speaker 1: and their staffs, the coaches and even office personnel, how

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Speaker 1: they must stay away from gambling, how evil gambling is,

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Speaker 1: and yet they're signing these partnership agreements and in some

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Speaker 1: cases even wearing gambling company logos on the shirts on

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Speaker 1: their shirts.

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Speaker 3: So I think it's confusing to a lot of young

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Speaker 3: athletes and.

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Speaker 1: It's going to continue to cause problems until there is

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Speaker 1: a day of reckoning. And yeah, I hope that the

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Speaker 1: leagues address this issue themselves rather than have it imposed

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Speaker 1: upon them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and let's you know, prop bets are are something

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Speaker 2: I think that that worry people. I've said before, I

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Speaker 2: worry about not not betting the spread as much because

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Speaker 2: games are monitored. You always knew and you predicted this,

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Speaker 2: and you told the NBA when you sat down with

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Speaker 2: David Stern watched the officials. It's not going to be

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Speaker 2: about the players. It's going to be college kids because

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Speaker 2: they don't have any money, and it's going to be officials.

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Speaker 2: And so what's interesting is that Tim donneghey situation happened,

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Speaker 2: and it was I will say this, and I've talked

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Speaker 2: to Tim Donicky. It was, let let's let's take it back.

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Speaker 2: Because I for years argued Vegas is the ally of

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Speaker 2: the pro leagues. They don't want it. Listen, the margins

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Speaker 2: are thin on this stuff. The last thing they want

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Speaker 2: is for there to be ill ego gambling. They'll tell

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Speaker 2: the leagues, we're getting burned on this game, or we're

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Speaker 2: getting burned by this official. Because so let's go back

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Speaker 2: to the Tim Donoghe situation where he wasn't necessarily changing outcomes,

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Speaker 2: he was changing overs and unders and take the audience back,

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Speaker 2: because I want to get them into your book that

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Speaker 2: were you shocked by Doneghie.

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Speaker 3: I was caught off guard.

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Speaker 1: I did not see that it was happening, and I

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Speaker 1: have great regret about that, and I talk about that

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Speaker 1: in the book. I wish I had caught it, and

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Speaker 1: it would have been very difficult to see though, because

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Speaker 1: we did not get bet on those games or those totals,

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Speaker 1: So there was no unusual money flooding into the Las

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Speaker 1: Vegas casinos like there was, for example, in the Arizona

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Speaker 1: State point shaving scandal of the mid nineties, which.

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Speaker 3: Was easy to see.

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Speaker 1: And I was so proud of the industry for seeing

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Speaker 1: it doing the right thing, notifying the leagues, notifying UH

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Speaker 1: or in that case, the NCAA, and and of course

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Speaker 1: the Nevada Gaming Control Board, having everything documented, a videotaped,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. We do handle the situation perfect perfectly. So

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Speaker 1: I took great pride in that, and I took that

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Speaker 1: part of my job seriously monitoring for those types of improprieties.

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Speaker 1: The Donaghy scandal, though, did was very upsetting to me,

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Speaker 1: you know, and seeing David Stern before the media, uh

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Speaker 1: when that was first reported was heartbreaking. He was, you know,

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Speaker 1: he was genuinely crushed hurt by what had happened that

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Speaker 1: when it was plaining to see you could see the pain.

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Speaker 3: On his face. And that's all I felt, too.

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Speaker 1: But today it's far different, And you know, mentioning the

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Speaker 1: prop bets I was I've never been an advocate of.

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Speaker 3: Prop bets on college athletes.

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Speaker 1: I did wind up doing it the last last several

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Speaker 1: years that I was in the business, but I had

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Speaker 1: to to keep up with the Joneses by that time.

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Speaker 3: By that time, you know, in the late twenty eighteen

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Speaker 3: nineteen in.

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Speaker 1: Early twenties, you could not have prop bets up on

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Speaker 1: the college football championship game or the final four. You know,

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Speaker 1: it was expected by that time by your consumers, and

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Speaker 1: you had to accommodate your consumers.

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Speaker 3: So I did do it, but I never liked it.

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Speaker 1: But what's happened now in the last couple of years

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Speaker 1: with you know, in pro baseball and pro basketball has

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Speaker 1: been very surprising and devastating to me, and that is

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Speaker 1: going to be very tough to control.

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Speaker 3: Prop betting and.

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Speaker 1: In play wagering has become a very fun, enjoyable pastime

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Speaker 1: for thousands and thousands of consumers, so it's going to

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Speaker 1: be hard to roll that back. But on college sports

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Speaker 1: it should be rolled back, and I am a strong,

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Speaker 1: strong advocate of the industry doing away with proper wagering

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Speaker 1: on college sports, or I call it individual athlete athletic performance.

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Speaker 2: I want to go back to the Tyson Buster Douglas

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Speaker 2: fight where Mike Tyson I think was a forty two

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Speaker 2: to one favorite. I can remember going on the air

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Speaker 2: and saying it's the safest bet of all time. In fact,

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Speaker 2: a friend of mine, a friend of mine, was at

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Speaker 2: the California Pizza Kitchen at the then time New Mirage

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Speaker 2: and we were at the California Pizza and the fight

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Speaker 2: was that night, and he goes, hey, han't about ten

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Speaker 2: dollars on Buster Douglas. I said, just buy a chicken

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Speaker 2: California pizza, chicken barbecue, chicken pizza. That is a way

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Speaker 2: better bet than Buster Douglas, some guy from Ohio. Of course,

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Speaker 2: I was, you know, exceptionally wrong. Go back to that fight.

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Speaker 2: What happens in your space when it is the upset

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Speaker 2: of a decade in any sport. Is that a miserable

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Speaker 2: experience for you?

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Speaker 3: Well, I didn't even book that fight. I didn't take

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Speaker 3: wages on it.

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Speaker 1: I thought if I considered it an outprice, meaning it

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Speaker 1: was ridiculous.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't a competitive event.

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Speaker 1: Buster Douglas had fought at the Hilton about a year

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Speaker 1: earlier and lost to Tony Tucker and did not impress

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Speaker 1: me at all.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: It was a lethargic and you know, just uninspired performance

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Speaker 1: completely and didn't didn't look good at all. And I'd

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Speaker 1: seen him in some other fights too on his way

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Speaker 1: up the last not very impressive to me. Tyson, of course,

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Speaker 1: was annihilating everybody at that time. But in retrospect, Buster

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Speaker 1: Douglas had lost his mother shortly before the fight, and

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Speaker 1: he dedicated his next fight to the memory of his mom.

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Speaker 1: Fought the fight of his life. He really did fight

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Speaker 1: a terrific fight that night. Tyson, on the other hand,

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Speaker 1: was an emotional wreck in his personal life, and I

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Speaker 1: came to learn later in this case, I learned this

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Speaker 1: inside information after the fact, not before the fact. But

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Speaker 1: I was told by a very good friend and my

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Speaker 1: personal physician who happened to be Mike's personal physician also

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Speaker 1: and also the chairman of the Nevada Athletic Commission, that

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Speaker 1: Mike had been suffering from an STD and was under

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Speaker 1: heavy medication at the time of the fight, and it

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Speaker 1: wasn't the first time that he fought under those conditions.

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Speaker 1: The first time in the Trevor Burberck fight didn't. It

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Speaker 1: didn't hurt his performs at all. Second time it did.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The and by the way, by the way, calling that

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Speaker 1: that forty two to one that you're referencing, that, that

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Speaker 1: was Jimmy Vicerra at the Mirage book the fight, and

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Speaker 1: he put it up one to twenty seven, making Tyson

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Speaker 1: a twenty seven to one favorite over Douglas. And all

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Speaker 1: the money was on Tyson, every ticket was on Tyson.

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Speaker 1: He said, somebody put up somebody put up a lot

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Speaker 1: of money, you know. And and so he graduated the

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Speaker 1: odds all the way up to forty two to one

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00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 1: and that and uh and then got some great publicity

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Speaker 1: about it afterwards, and that still telling stories about it

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Speaker 1: to this day.

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Speaker 2: The when when when the Supreme Court rules sports gambling

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00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:50,240
Speaker 2: is legal, how does it? And then almost simultaneously, the

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00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:52,480
Speaker 2: Draft Kings, the fandles. We have a deal with hard

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00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:54,680
Speaker 2: Rock bet who they have been a great partner for me.

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00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,400
Speaker 2: They don't force me in to make silly bets there there.

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00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,159
Speaker 2: You know, it's a it's a big broad relationship with

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Speaker 2: shows that we've built for them, beyond just picking occasional

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Speaker 2: football games. But how does it affect the sports book

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Speaker 2: in general. Again, I spent my saturdays at your Las

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Speaker 2: Vegas Hillton sports Book. I parked in the back parking lot.

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00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,560
Speaker 2: I came in and I parked there all day. I

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00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 2: should own stock in the company has legalized gambling, all

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00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:30,359
Speaker 2: the various companies where people can now bet on apps.

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Speaker 2: How does it affect the sports books in Vegas or

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00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:37,159
Speaker 2: Atlantic City. Well, the sportsbooks in Las Vegas have not

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Speaker 2: been hurt by the proliferation of gaming. The sports gaming

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Speaker 2: across the country.

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Speaker 1: Now this year is a little bit of an anomaly

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Speaker 1: the sports. The Super Bowl handle was significantly down in

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Speaker 1: Las Vegas. And there's probably several reasons why. Number One,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't the you know, a great marquee matchup. It

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00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 1: was it was, you know, there's two teams were good.

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00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,879
Speaker 1: They were especially at Seattle. Defense was really awesome. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Most of the season is through the playoffs, of course,

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Speaker 1: But nevertheless, there wasn't the big name guys, you know

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Speaker 1: there there was no Tom Brady, no Dan Murrin, no, no,

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Speaker 1: you know, no, no real marquee names in the game.

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Speaker 1: The prediction markets may it may or may not have

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Speaker 1: been a factor. Yes, and uh and and everybody having

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Speaker 1: gambling in their own backyard. Now it may be a factor,

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00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 1: so you know, I'm I'm still analyzing that to know

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00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:35,920
Speaker 1: exactly what happened. Las Vegas to me is undoubtedly still

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Speaker 1: the most exciting city in the world.

438
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 3: I still love it.

439
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 1: I still love living here, and we're not going anywhere

440
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,920
Speaker 1: but right now there the industry, it does have to

441
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,880
Speaker 1: take competition very seriously and and and get their arms

442
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: around our own practices here internally, uh from from uh

443
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 1: you know, parking fees and costs of drinks and add

444
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,680
Speaker 1: on fees to hotel rooms and so and so forth.

445
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 1: Those things do have to be addressed now about industry wide,

446
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:06,879
Speaker 1: and I think they are you know, people who are

447
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 1: build and run these places aren'tdummies.

448
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 3: They're getting it. They're getting it now.

449
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,719
Speaker 2: Yeah. I Mean one of the reasons my company, the Volume,

450
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 2: embraced hard rock bet is because they had brick and

451
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 2: mortar businesses. And I've said, guys, I've spent I went

452
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,200
Speaker 2: to the Hilton, I was at Caesar's. I want to

453
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 2: have a relationship. Hard rock bet, as you know, is

454
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,200
Speaker 2: building one on the strip. And my take has always

455
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 2: been I love the in person betting experience of a

456
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 2: sports book. I also like the ability to go on

457
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,880
Speaker 2: an app. But when I went to hard Rock bet

458
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 2: and I can hang out in their sports book, I'm like,

459
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:44,399
Speaker 2: oh my god, I felt like I was at the Hilton.

460
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 2: Maybe not as grand quite as the Hilton. I mean,

461
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 2: let's be honest, when you were running the Hilton sports book,

462
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:56,919
Speaker 2: what percentage of betters are marks squares and what percentage

463
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 2: are sharps and pros.

464
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 3: Oh boy, that's a good question.

465
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 1: I once put everybody solely in one of those categories,

466
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 1: and and and not allowed for a huge middle ground there.

467
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 1: There are there's a lot of people that are in

468
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 1: the middle between the two, and some are shaded more

469
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 1: towards the sophisticated side, some not so much.

470
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 3: Uh.

471
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 2: You know.

472
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 3: And in today's world, you know, shows like yours and.

473
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 1: And and the data available online, the ability to investigate

474
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,120
Speaker 1: what's going on is so much greater than it used

475
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 1: to be, you know, and just just you know, following

476
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 1: any you know, certain certain information networks online. You know,

477
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 1: it's it's far different than in the old days, where

478
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 1: the old timers used to brag about getting newspapers at

479
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 1: the airport from people.

480
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 3: Coming off the plane.

481
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that that's long you know, obviously long

482
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 1: gone now and and get you know, so access to

483
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,119
Speaker 1: information is so much greater today, and that that in

484
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: analysis is a very formidable part of sports handicapping today,

485
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: which which didn't exist in those days. And but but

486
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: not everybody is one extreme or the other, you know, not,

487
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 1: you know, it's not every you know, one segment of

488
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: the market isn't just coming in and betting on their

489
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,879
Speaker 1: favorite team because it came from that town, and the

490
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 1: other segment, you know, doing sophisticated analysis.

491
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:24,919
Speaker 3: There's a lot of people in between.

492
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: And one thing that I do point out in the

493
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 1: book also is most guys have an opinion on sports,

494
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 1: and if they have an opinion on sports, they generally

495
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 1: think their opinion.

496
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,880
Speaker 3: Is better than the next guys, right, yeah.

497
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 1: And if they think their opinion is better than the

498
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: average guy, then they think they can beat sports gambling.

499
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 3: And you know, most cannot, but some do.

500
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:48,440
Speaker 2: You know.

501
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: I tell the story of my uncle Jack Fransy Pittsburgh, Jack,

502
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: who was a successful sports handicapper for sixty years, never

503
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 1: worked a full day in his life, work behalf a

504
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 1: day once and quit but that was it.

505
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 2: Well, I've always argued sports gambling has the hold is

506
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 2: smaller than a lottery. People we have. Lotteries are legal everywhere,

507
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 2: but they hold half the money and you have almost

508
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 2: no shot to win. I can on any given Sunday

509
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 2: this year, I hit fifty nine and a half percent

510
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 2: on my NFL bets. That's pretty good number.

511
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 3: That's great, that's terrific. Yeah, very very good.

512
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 1: But you're right, the margins and sports are not that great,

513
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 1: and it's a very expensive department to run in most cases.

514
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 1: You know, the technology involved, the staffing involved, the management,

515
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: you know, the data analysis.

516
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 3: In today's world, which is a big part of the game.

517
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 3: Those things are not cheap.

518
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 1: And when you're running on very thin margins, you know,

519
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 1: it's it's tough to make a lot of money. And

520
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 1: that's another reason that I just don't. It doesn't make

521
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: sense to me for companies to be spending enormous amounts

522
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: of money to be in marketing partnerships with the leagues

523
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: and teams.

524
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 3: When you know they're better.

525
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 1: If people want to bet sports, they can find a

526
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 1: place to bet sports. They could find the app, they

527
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 1: could find us the casino or sports book in their

528
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: city or in their geographic reason region. You don't need

529
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 1: to be bombarded with sportsbook advertising at every break in

530
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 1: the game.

531
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 2: The listen, there's there's a lot of a lot of golfers,

532
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 2: for instance, are kind of legendary gamblers.

533
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 3: They're not part of the league.

534
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 2: I mean even the PG eight doesn't run Augusta or

535
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 2: the British Open or the US Open. So and golfers,

536
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 2: I mean these days they make money on YouTube, they

537
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 2: make money on teaching, they make money persons from winning events.

538
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 2: They golfers have always sort of lived their own sort

539
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 2: of life art, you know, they kind of doing their

540
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 2: own thing. Yea, there were rumors about Phil Mickelson forever.

541
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 2: I read Alan Shipknuk's book on Phil Mickelson, which I

542
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 2: don't think Michelson liked the book, but I I actually thought,

543
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 2: like Wolf of wall Street or the Oliver Stone movie,

544
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 2: the Gordon Gecko character. Actually Oliver Stone wasn't trying to

545
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 2: make him likable, but young people found him to be heroic.

546
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 2: They Oliver Stone later acknowledged that he didn't want to

547
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 2: make Gordon Decko likable, but it made all these young

548
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 2: guys that want to be stockbrokers. I read Phil Mickelson's book,

549
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 2: and I'm like, okay, Phil Bett. He was a voracious eater,

550
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 2: a voracious liver, a voracious better. So let's talk Phil Mickelson,

551
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 2: who had a legendary reputation. When did you discover Phil

552
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:39,959
Speaker 2: liked it? Bet occasionally.

553
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: Late nineties late late nineties. He was a frequent Las

554
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: Vegas customer.

555
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 2: Was he a good better?

556
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 3: Not especially until later on.

557
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 1: But he was just like like most average people coming

558
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 1: you know, he made a ton of money, so he

559
00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: would bet a little bit.

560
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 3: He would bet more than most, but that's the.

561
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 1: Only thing that separated him from the casual fan, other

562
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 1: fans that would come in and bet their favorite teams

563
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: or conferences. And he was a very likable guy. Nobody

564
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 1: ever had any problem with him personally. He treated the

565
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 1: staff very courteously. He signed autographs periodically. He was a

566
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: very likable guy and I have no grudge against him.

567
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 1: I do think that he got caught up. He got

568
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 1: in over his head and he started associating with people

569
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 1: that he shouldn't have been, being a high stakes athlete

570
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 1: like that, a very competitive athlete.

571
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 3: But at the end of the day, he did what

572
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 3: he should have done.

573
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: You know, he got out, he stopped playing, he kept

574
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 1: his mouth shut, and in one case he had to.

575
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 3: Pay restitution, and he did that.

576
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: And you know, if I ever saw him or had

577
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: the opportunity to speak to him again, I would love to.

578
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 1: I would be glad to see him. I admire him

579
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 1: as an athlete and admire him for the steps that

580
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 1: he's taken since he stopped stopped gambling.

581
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 2: So give me something the average fan would be surprised

582
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 2: about with sports gambling. You know, I think of myself

583
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 2: as a square, but more in the middle than a

584
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 2: full square. I'm pretty, I'm unemotional. I kind of go in.

585
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 2: I've always said I bet numbers. I don't bet teams.

586
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 2: I bet numbers. I don't bet players. I look at

587
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 2: a number. Now, I had New England plus four and

588
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 2: a half of the Super Bowl. I did have Sam

589
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 2: Darnold under two touchdown passes. But I got smoked. But but.

590
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 3: Give me by the way that fifty I might be

591
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 3: calling you.

592
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 1: Is is.

593
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 2: Are there sports that you make money that I we

594
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 2: I wouldn't believe are there are there certain sports that

595
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 2: it's you guys like hockey. The people that bet hockey,

596
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 2: I would guess really know hockey. Are there sports that

597
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 2: are trouble for a sports book operator. I imagine you

598
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 2: do pretty well in the NFL. But let's take hockey.

599
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 2: Who bets hockey unless they know hockey? Is that a

600
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 2: tough one?

601
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 3: That's your analogy is spot on.

602
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: But things changed in Las Vegas quite a bit when

603
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 1: the Golden Knights opened up here in Las Vegas.

604
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 3: Okay, you know, prior to that time, our decisions on

605
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 3: hockey were minuscule. But you're right.

606
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 1: There was a lot of sophisticated players, betters that bet hockey,

607
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,959
Speaker 1: and not so much the general public. But that all

608
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: changed overnight and and this city just totally embraced the Knights.

609
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 3: They were so good their first years, right out of

610
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 3: the box.

611
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 1: And it followed right when they first season started, followed

612
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 1: that horrible shooting on the strip from at Mandalay Bay,

613
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: and the city was just shocked.

614
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 3: And then all of a sudden, this team came into our.

615
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: Lives and everybody in town was rooting for them, and

616
00:33:56,040 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 1: they had this slogan Vegas Strong, and everybody, you know,

617
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: you you'd see those signs all over the city, and.

618
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 3: The city loved them. And I as a book maker

619
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 3: started getting killed in hockey after game after and they

620
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 3: came so close to winning at all where we would

621
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 3: have gotten carried out if they if they had won

622
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 3: the championship. That was the biggest sweat of my life

623
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 3: as a book maker.

624
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 1: But yeah, now since then, yeah, the hockey is much

625
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 1: bigger part of the betting handle and Nevada than it

626
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 1: used to be. But but but football is still the

627
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: king of betting sports, you know, it really is. Football

628
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:35,800
Speaker 1: is just made for sports gambling. You know, people have

629
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 1: a week to uh, to do their homework and to

630
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 1: argue with their friends and and and compare opinions and

631
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 1: shop for numbers and and uh, you know, and then

632
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 1: and and and then uh, you.

633
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 3: Know, everything everything culminates on the weekend.

634
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,439
Speaker 1: And and and that that is that that is still

635
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 1: the biggest betting sport in Las Vegas, and and and

636
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 1: in America. Best all is strong. The NCAA tournament is gigantic. Also,

637
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 1: baseball is probably the lightest of the major sports. But

638
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 1: because of the numbers of games that total handle does

639
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 1: add up to a lot, but but by but comparing

640
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 1: individual game to individual game, baseball is far behind the others.

641
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 3: The other major.

642
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 2: Sports I can remember This is very early days when

643
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 2: I was. I got out of school in the high

644
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 2: school eighty two eighty six college and I went to

645
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 2: Vegas and I picked up on a couple of trends.

646
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 2: I knew the Packed twelve at the time Packed ten

647
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 2: really well. And I always thought that I knew the

648
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 2: Pacific Northwest teams better than the sports books because I

649
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:55,399
Speaker 2: was from up there.

650
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 3: And I did.

651
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 2: I remember one year I hit seven of eight bets

652
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 2: on Oregon State. I always felt USC was overplayed in Vegas,

653
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 2: so I tended to bet against USC and bet for

654
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 2: the Northwest schools. I do remember something, and it's very

655
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 2: fuzzy because I moved there. Tony Spilatro was there. I

656
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 2: once walked into a restaurant on Spring Mountain Road and

657
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 2: saw Tony Spilatro and he started eyeing me, and I thought,

658
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 2: he thinks I'm a news guy. I'm like, I'm a

659
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,320
Speaker 2: sports guy. I'll give you a pick, leave me alone.

660
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 2: So I was free. I wouldn't go to the bathroom.

661
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 2: I'm like, there's Tony Spilatro and a table of mob guys.

662
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,320
Speaker 2: Ned Day was a reporter at Channel eight doing and

663
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm not going near the bathroom. So but

664
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:38,760
Speaker 2: the point was there was a story, and I don't remember,

665
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,759
Speaker 2: it's very fuzzy, but there was IVY League Football, and

666
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,800
Speaker 2: there was a syndicate or a bunch of sharps on

667
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 2: the East coast that were beaten up on sports books.

668
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,399
Speaker 2: And the only people that met IVY League football knew

669
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 2: IVY League football. And if I recall, some of the

670
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 2: sports books said, we're just not letting you bet it.

671
00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:59,720
Speaker 2: Do you remember that with IVY League football.

672
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it wasn't just IVU football. It's the smaller

673
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: conferences in general. And you know, I finally did a

674
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 1: study and was able to approve. I was able to

675
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 1: prove what I had theorized for many many years. I

676
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:19,479
Speaker 1: think was twenty twenty. I brought in an analytics firm

677
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 1: and they analyzed a lot of data and finally documented

678
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 1: that we made very very little money, almost to break

679
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,720
Speaker 1: even on all the small conferences that we booked.

680
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 3: But the major conferences we clim you know, we did

681
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:34,279
Speaker 3: very very well.

682
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: You know, so the more viewer, the more viewers of

683
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 1: any event, that that's our bread and butter business in

684
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:44,760
Speaker 1: my opinion.

685
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:46,439
Speaker 3: You know, that's where we made our money.

686
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 1: If it's you know, a marquee matchup, you know Alabama

687
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 1: and Auburn, or you know some USC and UCLA and

688
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,839
Speaker 1: our case being so close to southern California. Those are

689
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: those are the matchups you like as a book maker.

690
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,839
Speaker 1: And I always took much higher limits on the Power

691
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 1: conferences and the week conferences, very low limits. And the

692
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 1: sophisticated betters didn't like that, of course, because that's where

693
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 1: they had their best opportunities.

694
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 3: And you're right, they knew more than me, certainly more

695
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 3: than the industry in general.

696
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 2: In when you get a situation like Otani and I

697
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 2: defended him, I'm like, listen, folks, he doesn't speak our language. Okay,

698
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 2: communication is a problem. Every state has different tax laws.

699
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 2: When you're making so much money, not only with the

700
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 2: Dodgers in baseball, but overseas on merchandise. If you go

701
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:41,359
Speaker 2: to Japan, he's on every billboard. He's bigger than he's

702
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 2: Taylor Swift times ten and I said, he's got thirty

703
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 2: revenue streams coming in. I can see him getting used

704
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 2: by an interpreter. When the Otawi story came down, What

705
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 2: was your initial reaction and do you have any insight into.

706
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 3: That I don't. I did.

707
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 1: I did have some experience with the felt that was

708
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 1: uh uh allegedly took took the wagers and the book

709
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 1: maker that was involved. He was a he was a

710
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 1: player around Las Vegas, and he did raise some red

711
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 1: flags as a player because he was a very big

712
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 1: player without a known source of income. So he did

713
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 1: raise raise red flags and he was uh not allowed

714
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 1: to frequent certain places around Las Vegas. Yeah, now that

715
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 1: that story was just horrendous and so dangerous for for

716
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 1: Major League Baseball. I do do not have any inside

717
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:34,800
Speaker 1: knowledge on what happened there the story.

718
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 3: Uh, you know, I have some.

719
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,880
Speaker 1: Personal thoughts about it, but not something I would I

720
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 1: should say or would would say publicly because I don't

721
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,800
Speaker 1: have any any any evidence or knowledge behind the scenes.

722
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 1: But uh, other than the fact that you know that

723
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 1: it was very dangerous for the leagues. And and it

724
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,959
Speaker 1: comes to the point, you know, my over writing point

725
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 1: on all of these discussions and and in the book

726
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 1: is about the integrity of sports. And you know who

727
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 1: said it best was in the nineteen thirties or twenties

728
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:17,800
Speaker 1: Meyer Lansky, the mobster and bookmaker and Ilio casino operator.

729
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 1: But he's the one that stated many times that our

730
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,800
Speaker 1: games must be credible and if we lack integrity in

731
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 1: our gaming product, we lose everything. And he's exactly right,

732
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 1: and the leagues have got to wake up to that

733
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,359
Speaker 1: reality today. And I'm not blaming the league at all

734
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 1: for the ATNI situation as far as gambling is concerned,

735
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 1: but I do fault the league's for their sudden one

736
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 1: hundred and eighty degree turnaround and embrace of gambling.

737
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 3: It's too much, too fast.

738
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I can remember years ago when Tony

739
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 2: Romo wanted to go and join some fantasy football business

740
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 2: in Vegas. It was small potatoes and the NFL would

741
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 2: not allow it. And then three years later they owned

742
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 2: have a FanDuel, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

743
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 1: You know there was most of my career we weren't

744
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 1: allowed to advertise during an NFL broadcast, The city of

745
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,319
Speaker 1: Las Vegas itself could not advertise in the Super Bowl.

746
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 3: You know, we were just totally vilified. And you know,

747
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 3: now all of a sudden, you know, my.

748
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 1: Question to the leagues is, were you guys right then

749
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 1: or are you right now? Or is there a happy

750
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,800
Speaker 1: medium in there somewhere? And I think there may be.

751
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 3: I hope there is.

752
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 2: Well, I mean Vegas. By the time I got there,

753
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,800
Speaker 2: you did have Tony Spillatro, you did have mob reporters,

754
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 2: but it mostly dried up. You know a Lefty Rosenthal who,

755
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 2: by the way, his car got blown up. There's a

756
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 2: Marie Calendar's now there. That is where I met my

757
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 2: first wife, Kim was at that Marie Calendars where she

758
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 2: was a waitress, and before I go to work, I'd

759
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 2: go get my corn red and chili every Wednesday and Thursday.

760
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 2: So but let's talk about was there a you know,

761
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 2: Billy Walters and Lem Banker. You know that's that's not mobsters,

762
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:16,919
Speaker 2: that's sharp's. Were there situations early in your career where

763
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 2: you know, when you were at Caesar's there's there was

764
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 2: a mob presence in the desert. Did you ever did

765
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 2: you ever feel threatened? Were there ever moments where it

766
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 2: got a little dicey for you?

767
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 1: Yeah?

768
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 3: But I was so naive at that time. I didn't

769
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 3: I wasn't as scared as I should have been.

770
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,880
Speaker 1: I did deal with it when I when I was

771
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 1: at the Stardust, I did deal with Spillachio's runner, you know,

772
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: who was a regular customer and he pretty much called

773
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 1: his shots. He would dictate the terms of his wagers.

774
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:50,839
Speaker 1: In other words, he would tell them to change the price,

775
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 1: and he'd get his his his price, and that you know,

776
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 1: that's just not only unusual, it's crazy for a bookmaker

777
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 1: to do that. But then when I went to the

778
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: Barbary Coast, I was dealing with him there and he

779
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 1: came in the same fellas came in and bet sixteen

780
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 1: college basketball games. We were taking a dime one thousand

781
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: dollars on college basketball. Most of the bets were small conferences,

782
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,280
Speaker 1: and he bet six sixteen college basketball games for eleven

783
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:24,800
Speaker 1: hundred each, gave me sixteen five sixteen thousand, five hundred,

784
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 1: and out the door he went. And it wasn't until

785
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 1: later in the evening I realized I undercharged him eleven

786
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: hundred dollars. I was short at eleven hundred dollars should

787
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 1: have been seventeen thousand, six hundred, and I was freaking out.

788
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 1: I was petrified at what was going to happen. That

789
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 1: was a big shortage for me, the biggest of my life.

790
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 1: As a young ticket writer. Called Jimmy mccaro I told

791
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:50,759
Speaker 1: him what had happened. He knew I was scared, and

792
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 1: he told me, don't worry about it, turn your drawer

793
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 1: in and we'll talk. I'll talk to you tomorrow, and

794
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 1: so I did, and then I came to find out

795
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 1: later on that Jimmy covered that shortage out of his

796
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 1: own pocket the next morning and opened my eyes. And

797
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 1: at that point I knew which side of the counter

798
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 1: I wanted to be on, and who I wanted to

799
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 1: work for, and who I wanted to emulate.

800
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 3: And that was a very very valuable lesson for me.

801
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 2: When do you think the Spilatro and those guys, because

802
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 2: when you say they changed the lines, basically what you're

803
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 2: saying is they went into the Starbucks and they Starbucks.

804
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 2: They went into the Stardust and said, I'm not going

805
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 2: to bet it at minus four, it's going to be

806
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 2: minus seven. Well that obviously plus yeah, yeah, plus that's

807
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:41,399
Speaker 2: long gone. Instead of plus four, it's plus seven. When

808
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 2: was the time that the that the mob had no control?

809
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 2: Did you notice like the influence didn't matter, because they

810
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,840
Speaker 2: obviously did that at the Stardust for years, but that

811
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,319
Speaker 2: didn't carry on by the time I got to town.

812
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 2: That's not the way it worked.

813
00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 3: When did that end mid eighties.

814
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: I was at Caesar's the first time in eighty Ford

815
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 1: to eighty six and one of Spilato's Spilotro's guys did

816
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 1: did approach me there, and I knew he was a

817
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 1: Spilatro guy, but you know, I just treated him like

818
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 1: every other customer. But eventually, you know, he started hanging around,

819
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:26,800
Speaker 1: kept trying to talk to me, and eventually said, you

820
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 1: know what, can we can do some great things together.

821
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 1: We can help each other, and you know, planted that

822
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:34,840
Speaker 1: seed and repeated it a couple of days.

823
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 3: In a row, and then you know, I realized what

824
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:38,399
Speaker 3: he was doing.

825
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 1: I realized that, you know, he wanted to get into me,

826
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 1: cutting into me, and I just laughed it off. I

827
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 1: just brust it aside, kept doing my job, never answered,

828
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 1: never said no, never said anything about it, just laughed

829
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:58,479
Speaker 1: and kept about my business. But I should have taken

830
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 1: it much more seriously, you know, And had I responded negatively,

831
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 1: had I gone to corporate security or the police or

832
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 1: gaming Control Board or anybody else, who knows what would

833
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 1: have happened.

834
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:09,800
Speaker 3: I don't know.

835
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:12,360
Speaker 1: In retrospect, I'm glad I handled it the way that

836
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 1: I did, but I really was too naive to know

837
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 1: what to do and by accident did the right thing.

838
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, art Man Terraces, It's called the bookie. For me,

839
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 2: there were just so many fun stories. I was your

840
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 2: typical small town, rural Washington naive kid, obsessed with my career,

841
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 2: and it was people, honestly, you and Chuck Esposito, Roxy Roxborough,

842
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 2: who I knew of didn't get to spend a lot

843
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 2: of time with him, but it was people like that

844
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 2: that actually kind of taught me a little bit behind

845
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:49,799
Speaker 2: the ropes. I've always been indebted. I've always been fascinated

846
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,760
Speaker 2: and I'm just so happy for your success. Your family's beautiful,

847
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 2: by the way, absolutely stunning wife and kids. And do

848
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 2: you ever out now that you're removed from it, do

849
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 2: you ever say, Hey, I just want to go back.

850
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 2: I want to go bet a football game. How can

851
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 2: you not? Right?

852
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 3: No, No, I don't. I don't.

853
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 1: I still am tempted sometimes in boxing because I antennis.

854
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 3: I've come to really really like tenant, especially the majors,

855
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:21,799
Speaker 3: But no, I don't.

856
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 1: I never as an executive in the industry, I never

857
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 1: felt comfortable in going to other people's sports books are

858
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 1: opening an app elsewhere, and so now I'm not tempted

859
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 1: to do that.

860
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 3: Others around me may answer differently, including the family members,

861
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:40,800
Speaker 3: but not not me.

862
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 1: Art.

863
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 2: It's great to see you. Thanks for giving us forty

864
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:47,800
Speaker 2: five minutes today, and say hi to Sue and congrats

865
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 2: and all your success and your remarkable career.

866
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 3: Thank you, Colin. It was great talking to you. I

867
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 3: love watching you all over the years and watching you

868
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:00,160
Speaker 3: rise in the industry to where you're to your Your

869
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 3: rise has been phenomenal, but not that surprising. I saw

870
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 3: it coming long ago.

871
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 2: All right, Thanks man, Thank you

872
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:11,320
Speaker 1: The volume