1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grease. Have you ever accidentally burned yourself? 2 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: Because the other night they are I burned myself twice 3 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: in one night cooking dinner, and it really hurt. You know, 4 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: it takes a really long time for burn marks scars 5 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: to go away. They are some of the most painful 6 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: injuries that I have ever observed with crime victims. I'm 7 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: also thinking about my children, John, David and Lucy here 8 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: are now sixteen, believe it or not, at age one month, 9 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 1: how helpless they were. A beautiful little girl, Zariyah is dead, 10 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: her body one month old, covered in burns. I often 11 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: see where moms or dads put their child in scalding 12 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: hot water, believe it or not, unintentionally, not realizing how 13 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 1: hot the water is. In fact, there are mandates and 14 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:37,040 Speaker 1: health directives about how hot or cool you should have 15 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: the water in your home for that very reason, because 16 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: children can't turn the water faucet for themselves. So why 17 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: is one month old baby girl Zariyah dead and covered 18 00:01:54,120 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: in burns? Not because of accidental scalding because her mother 19 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: put her in the oven to bake let it sink in. 20 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: A one month old baby girl covered in horrific burns 21 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: put alive in the oven to bake. I, Nancy Grace, 22 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us 23 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: here at Crime Stories and on series XEM one eleven. 24 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: I have an all star panel to make sense of 25 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: what we are learning. But first listen to this. 26 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 2: Mariah Thomas mother calls Mariah's father daily about one pm, 27 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 2: and Friday is no different. However, when she calls on 28 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 2: this day, she tells him something is wrong with the 29 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 2: baby and he needs to hurry home. Mariah's father, Zariah's grandfather, 30 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 2: arrives at the house before first responders, smell smoke and 31 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 2: runs to the baby's crib. He sees that baby Zariah 32 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 2: looks burned. He picks her up, realizes his granddaughter is 33 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 2: dead and asks Mariah what happened. Mariah Thomas says she 34 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 2: was putting Zariah down for a nap and thought she 35 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 2: put her in the crib, but accidentally put her in 36 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:19,079 Speaker 2: the oven. 37 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: BS technical legal term. B S. You put a baby 38 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: in the oven and turn it on and you thought 39 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: it was the crib. Oh h double l n oh, 40 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: that's not flying for me again with me an all 41 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: star panel to make sense of what we know, and 42 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: I want to go first straight to Amanda Jen breaking 43 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: news investigative reporter at The Daily Beast. Amanda, thank you 44 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: for being with us. Is it true the little girl's 45 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: clothes melted to her diaper? 46 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 3: Yes, that is true. When the police arrived, they found 47 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 3: that her one sie that she was wearing had melted 48 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 3: and fused to the diaper because of the burn. 49 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: Aman, again, what do you know about what happened? Bring 50 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: me up to the point where the defendant, Mariah Thomas, 51 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: aged twenty six, old enough to know better. This is 52 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,280 Speaker 1: not a juvenile mom, a mom that got pregnant when 53 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:25,600 Speaker 1: she was eleven or twelve. This is a twenty six 54 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: year old, grown woman that I would like to report 55 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: posted many many times before the baby was born. Uh, 56 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: I'm tired of being pregnant. Blah blah blah. Take me 57 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,239 Speaker 1: up to the moment her father shows up and smells 58 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: something burning. That something burning would be the baby. 59 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 3: What we know is that that morning that this horrible 60 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 3: incident occurred, be parents had left Mariah and baby Zarah 61 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 3: in the house alone. They all lived together. Mariah and 62 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 3: her daughter were living with the baby's grandparents, and they 63 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 3: often left Mariah and the baby at home while the 64 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 3: mother went to work, while the father went out to 65 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 3: look for work. So this should have been a day 66 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 3: like any other. I spoke to one of Mariah's close 67 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 3: friends who had been friends with her for years, who 68 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 3: told me that she had spoken to Mariah the night 69 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 3: before and that Mariah had reported not sleeping well, she 70 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 3: was really tired. She woke up and she just wasn't 71 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 3: feeling her best. So when she was home alone, we 72 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 3: know that the parents were out of the house, that is, 73 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 3: the baby's grandparents were out of the house, so Mariah 74 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 3: and the baby were left alone. 75 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: Let me follow up on a few things that you 76 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: have just said. Joining me special guest Amanda Yan, investigative 77 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: journalists with breaking news at the Daily Base. Amanda In 78 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: a friend of defendant twenty six year old Mariah, spoke 79 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,919 Speaker 1: with Mariah Thomas the night before the baby was killed 80 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: and said that Mariah Thomas, the mother, did not quote 81 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: feel her best. Is that correct? 82 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 3: Yes, that is correct. 83 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 1: Did the friend mention any homicidal ideation, any out of 84 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: control behavior, anything like that at all? Was at a 85 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 1: normal conversation except the mom was tired. 86 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 3: Nothing in their conversation that was reported to me, showed 87 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 3: any sign of intent of harming the baby. When I 88 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 3: spoke to the close friend, the friend did say that. 89 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: She was shocked straight out to special guests joining us 90 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 1: renowned psychiatrist doctor Angela Arnold. You can find her at 91 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: Angela Arnold MD dot com out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. 92 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: Doctor Angie, We're always shocked. I'm always shocked with every 93 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: child abuse or child homicide. I'm shocked. I've been doing 94 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: this since i became a crime victim myself many years ago. 95 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: I'm never not shocked. And if you ask the neighbor, 96 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: or the best friend, or the person that says beside 97 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: them at church or synagogue, they're all shocked, all right, 98 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: everybody to drop off of the pickup. I can't believe it. 99 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: I'm shocked, yes, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. 100 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: Believe me, I'm using air quotas. I know you can't 101 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: see me, doctor Angie. But a lot of nice people 102 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: torture children and abuse them and hurt them and in 103 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: this case kill them. I think it's a big red Jackie. 104 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: I need a red flag, a big red flag being 105 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: waved when somebody says I'm so sick of being pregnant? Flag, 106 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: I can the baby come? I mean, yeah, I was 107 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: tired carrying twins, but I didn't blame the babies. 108 00:07:55,800 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 4: And Nancy, this baby was only one month old. There 109 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:07,239 Speaker 4: are several red flags here. First of all, I wonder 110 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 4: why this girl was ever left alone with the baby. 111 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: Number one, She's not a girl, I believe I pointed 112 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 1: out to you, yes at the gego doctor Angie, this 113 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: is a woman going on thirty. She is a grown woman. 114 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: She's twenty six about day at twenty seven. She's not 115 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: a girl. Okay, well, you. 116 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 4: Know, Nancy, she's twenty six and she lives with her parents. 117 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 4: So to me, that's a red flag. Also, why is 118 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 4: a twenty six year old who just had a baby 119 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 4: living with her parent? 120 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 1: Maybe because the parents were helping her? Okay, may my 121 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: mom and dad came up and stayed with me for 122 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: months after I gave birth to the twins. And I'm 123 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: not going to tell you how old I was when 124 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: I gave birth. 125 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 4: But she was living with them, and if they were 126 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 4: there to quote unquote help her, then perhaps she should 127 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 4: have never been left alone with the baby. 128 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:02,079 Speaker 1: You know, doctor Anne, I really respect you and I'm 129 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 1: very proud for you about your recent honor where everybody 130 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 1: in your jurisdiction voted for you as one of the 131 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: prominent psychiatrists in your area. But pointing the finger at 132 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: the grandparents is not working. It's not working for me. 133 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: They didn't put the baby in the oven. Mommy, mommy 134 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: put the baby in the oven. And not only that, 135 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: I mean help me out here. Wayne S. Promisel, former 136 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 1: detective sergeant, Special Victims unit owner Compass Investigative Services in Leland, 137 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: North Carolina. Not just put the baby in the oven. 138 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: You think the baby turned the oven on herself one 139 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: month old Ziiah, No, mommy had to turn that oven on. 140 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 1: How the hey do you think it's a crib when 141 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: you have to turn it to three point fifty? 142 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 5: That is BS, I would agree with you. And a 143 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:05,319 Speaker 5: primary focus other than what we've read in the news 144 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 5: links about the crime scene processing pretty much speaks for 145 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 5: how Zavaiah past. The focus is on that oven that 146 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 5: is the crime scene, and certainly a police focus in 147 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 5: mindset is right away understanding that a defense that's going 148 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 5: to come forward very quickly is what you've been What 149 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 5: people are circling around mental health this defect disability versus 150 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 5: the intention which you're stressing, the conscious actions of turning 151 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 5: on the oven, placing the child in the oven, and 152 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 5: then living through the pain that you earlier described you 153 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:47,679 Speaker 5: went through just burning yourself cooking my promisel. 154 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: Can I just stop you one moment, sir? Certainly, and 155 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 1: you have a stellar reputation, Thank you, mister Promisel. You 156 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 1: know what I would force Jurys to do the same 157 00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 1: thing I would force myself to do. Because it's easy 158 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: for us to read the headline. Let's see what's the 159 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:11,199 Speaker 1: headline right here that I was looking up? Earlier headline 160 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 1: in Deli mail. Missouri mom twenty six charged with baking 161 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: her kneborn baby daughter to death in an oven all 162 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: caps after mistaking kitchen appliants for infant's crib, leaving torture 163 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: girls clothes melted to her diaper. Okay, I read the 164 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: headline and I stopped right there. You know why, promise el, 165 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: because I don't want to think about a baby. I 166 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: almost said my baby, but I'm not. I can I'm 167 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: not going to go there at one month, opening the oven, 168 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 1: putting your baby on the rack, closing the oven, and 169 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: cranking it up to four hundred. I don't want to 170 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:05,319 Speaker 1: think about that baby in the oven as it gets 171 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 1: hotter and hotter, and the baby is screaming, screaming as 172 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: her clothes melt until she is burned dead. How long 173 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: did it take? Five minutes, ten minutes, twenty minutes, an 174 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: hour in an oven? I can't even stand a small space, 175 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: the baby in the oven, screaming, crying, thrashing, melting. Yeah, 176 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: it's easy, isn't it, Wayne Promisel, to think about Oh 177 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: did you hear doctor Angie say, oh, well, they should 178 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:56,319 Speaker 1: never left the mom there with the baby. That's bs 179 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: think about the baby, promise, Sell. 180 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 5: I hear you loud and clear, Nancy, and I can't 181 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 5: disagree with anything you just listed. However, I will say this, 182 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 5: I'm not here to provide nor did I ever try 183 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 5: to provide defenses. But my investigative focus, my detectives investigative focus, 184 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 5: is gathering that corroboration that leads to the ultimate question, 185 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 5: and is this a premeditated and or other type of impairment? 186 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 5: I mean, we look at the charge, and that's Kansas 187 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 5: City's basic charge for the cruelty, but such other things. 188 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 5: Was she actually alone that day? We would need to look, 189 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 5: We need to do a thorough investigation, make sure she 190 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 5: was in fact alone that day. That no mention of 191 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 5: the father of this child. Not that it comes in 192 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 5: because she made the statement she was there and responsible 193 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 5: at the time. But police focus emotions somewhat detached or 194 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 5: focused on grabbing and corroborating the evidence that supports what 195 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 5: ultimately happened to Zariah. 196 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 1: Well, you're right, You're right, Wayne Promisel, and that's why 197 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 1: you have your own detective agency. You're right. All of 198 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 1: those facts have to be analyzed because if I believe 199 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: that this mother is insane, I would never agree to 200 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: her having a guilty verdict or a guilty plea. If 201 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: she is insane, she needs to go to treatment and 202 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: stay there for the rest of her life. I don't 203 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: mean treatment for six months and then get out. I 204 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: mean treatment for six months and if you're well, then 205 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: you go to jail. 206 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 5: Well, one thing, if I could, Nancy, I would just 207 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 5: circle back to what doctor Angie said in respect to 208 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 5: not blaming the parents. But interviews are a very important 209 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 5: part profile of Mariah's history, very important. So I would 210 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 5: just say with respect to the emotionality is if the 211 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 5: parents knew of known diagnoses of Mariah. Then doctor Angie's 212 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 5: comment not blaming the parents but being cognizant. 213 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: I'd like to point something out following up on what 214 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: you're saying. Mariah Thomas, aged twenty six, the mom that 215 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: put the baby in the oven to die. She's in 216 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: GP right now, general population. What does that mean to me? 217 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: That means she has not been diagnosed with any mental 218 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: disorder that would preclude her from being in general population. Sidney, 219 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: could you check that place. I want to make absolutely 220 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 1: sure we know nothing about her being on the med board. 221 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace. Also joining me is bernarda 222 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: the Alone, high profile criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor. 223 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: You can find her at the Alone of law dot com. Bernardo, 224 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. I know you're defending now, 225 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: but is there ever point during all of your prosecutions, 226 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: your investigations, and you're defending that you don't know whether 227 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 1: it be spitting fire mad or just sit down and 228 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: start crying. 229 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 6: So, Nancy, even when I went on the criminal defense side, 230 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 6: I still said there were certain cases that I would 231 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 6: not take and this is one of those cases, having 232 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 6: to deal with the death of a child. 233 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 4: Here. 234 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 6: We have one of the most outrageous type of cases. 235 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 6: We're talking about a one month old baby that was killed. 236 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 6: I have so many questions and I want to know 237 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 6: what is in on her phone, what's the search history 238 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 6: on her phone? What text messages does she set because 239 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 6: we know that she did not give a statement to 240 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 6: law enforcement. 241 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: Hey, you just brought us something really good, BERNARDA not 242 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: that everything you said wasn't good, and you're right, but 243 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: I want to follow up on that before I go 244 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: to Paula Road, Former Defects Department, Family Children's Services CPS, 245 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 1: Child Protective Services. I want you to hear this what 246 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: first responders find when they get to the homelessen. 247 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:17,400 Speaker 7: First responders arrived to what they think is a call 248 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 7: for an infant who is in breathing, but instead find 249 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 7: Mariah Thomas, father holding Zariyah. He hands Zariah to a 250 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 7: Kansas City Fire Department first responder, who determines the baby 251 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 7: is dead. Zariah has what appears to be thermal injuries 252 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 7: on various parts of her body. She's wearing a bodysuit 253 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 7: over a diaper, but the clothing appears to have melted 254 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 7: into the diaper and it appears very dirty, possibly burned 255 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 7: on the backside. A baby blanket with significant burn marks 256 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 7: is found in the living room. 257 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: We keep hearing she the mother Mariah. Twenty six year 258 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: old Mariah Thomas did not give a statement. Oh no, 259 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: it's not because she is comatose with grief. It's because 260 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:03,919 Speaker 1: she sized her Fifth Amendment right to remain silent. You 261 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: want to tell me this lady's insane? Uh uh No, 262 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: She hears from Miranda Rights and goes, yeah, you know what, 263 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: I'm not talking. Listen. 264 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 2: The three adult family members are separated and interviewed separately. 265 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 2: Mariah Thomas's parents say everything was normal when they left 266 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 2: that morning. Mother and daughter both seem to be in 267 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 2: good spirits. According to police records, the mother and father 268 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 2: essentially tell the police the same story, but when it 269 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 2: comes time for Mariah Thomas to be interviewed, she is 270 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,439 Speaker 2: advised of her Miranda rights and invokes her right not 271 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 2: to speak. The interview ends, but she agrees to sign 272 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:40,199 Speaker 2: consent searches for detectives to obtain a blood draw and 273 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 2: access her phone data. 274 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 1: Wow. I wonder if she had figured out that cops 275 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,719 Speaker 1: can get that information with a search warrant. It's just 276 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: like you can get a search warrant on the phone 277 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: or the sitting magistrate, So that could be obtained very easily. 278 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: A blood draw is obtainable with a search warrant. Getting 279 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 1: someone's phone is obtainable with a search warrant. You know, 280 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:10,199 Speaker 1: it's not obtainable a statement from the defendant, suspect, target, 281 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: person of interest. Can't get a warrant for that because 282 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: you have a right, an absolute right under the US 283 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: Constitution Fifth Amendment, to remain silent and not incriminate yourself. 284 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: So she is if she's crazy, she's crazy like a 285 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 1: fox because she knew to stay quite once she heard 286 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: those Miranda rights. Anybody want to jump on that because 287 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:43,360 Speaker 1: I find that highly highly suspicious. Of course, at trial, 288 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 1: the prosecutor, let's just pretend it's me cannot argue that 289 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: in front of the jury, because that's a comment on 290 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: the defendant's right to remain silent. If you mentioned that 291 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: in closing arguments or at any time during the case, 292 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:04,439 Speaker 1: that's a mistrial, and it may be with prejudice. In 293 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: other words, you don't get a second swing at the ball. 294 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 1: Don't screw that up. So not only can she remain 295 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 1: silent as she chose to do, but that cannot be 296 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: commented upon at trial by the state or its reversible error. 297 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: I want to go to Paula ROADI joining me child 298 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 1: abuse welfare consultant and expert, former child Protected Services abuse investigator. 299 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: You can find her at Paula Roady Consulting, LLC. And 300 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 1: I want to point something else out about Paula Roady. 301 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 1: She wasn't just with child protective services. She was CPS 302 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:50,919 Speaker 1: in Orange County, California. To put it euphemistically, never a 303 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 1: lack of business. There are about three million people there 304 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: and she did child protective services there. I'm telling you 305 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: you had your work cut out for you. Paula Road, 306 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,360 Speaker 1: I want to hear your thoughts on this because if 307 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:07,959 Speaker 1: she's fine the morning when the parents leave, they're in 308 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: good spirits, everything's okay. She dressed the baby in diepies 309 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 1: and a onesie. 310 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 4: What I would say that in terms of looking at 311 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 4: this through the child Protective services lens, you know, we 312 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 4: look at safety and we look at risk factors, and 313 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 4: one of the safety red flags safety threats that I 314 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 4: heard is potentially her statement about I'm so sick of 315 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:38,239 Speaker 4: being pregnant, so any type of comments posting, you know, 316 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:44,199 Speaker 4: anything she's expressing to others that describe that baby, that 317 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 4: precious little baby in negative terms, in a negative way, 318 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 4: is a safety threat in terms of risk factors? What 319 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 4: would be an objective appraisal of the likelihood that this 320 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 4: parent will mal treat the child? 321 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 1: Can you say that again? Place? I got to let 322 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,360 Speaker 1: it so ken that about the appraisal? 323 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 4: What so when we do a risk assessment? 324 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: When do you do a risk assessment? Does somebody do 325 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 1: a risk assessment on me? When I gave birth? Because 326 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: I was not asking anything that I recall? When are 327 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:18,680 Speaker 1: you called in to do a risk assessment? 328 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 4: Well, that's that's what CPS does when they when they 329 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 4: are involved. But so I'm what I want to speak 330 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 4: to is what is the history that because the risk 331 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 4: assessment is all based on historical information about Mariah and 332 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 4: and the father or the even the if she's living 333 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 4: with her parents, it would look at that whole healsehold. 334 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 4: So you know, for example, have there been prior investigations, 335 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 4: what are the number of children in the home, What 336 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:55,439 Speaker 4: are the characteristics of Mariah? Does she have mental health history? 337 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,919 Speaker 4: As we're questioning, are there developmental challenges, what is her 338 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 4: assessment of what occurred, and what is her prior history 339 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 4: of any type of CPS involvement, either as a child 340 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 4: or as a parent. 341 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 1: Okay, I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound harsh, but 342 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: Paula Rodi, a baby just got burned alive in the oven. 343 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: So unless the mother is legally insane, why do I care? 344 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: I mean, am I the crazy one here? And that's rhetorical, 345 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 1: you don't need to answer. But the baby was placed 346 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: alive in the oven to burn alive. And another fact, 347 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,439 Speaker 1: Amanda Yen joining me from the Daily Beast, who's been 348 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,360 Speaker 1: on the story from the beginning. Isn't it true that 349 00:23:53,440 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: when the grandfather, Mariah Thomas's father got home, he could 350 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: smell something burning and he saw where the baby had 351 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:12,399 Speaker 1: been placed in the crib. Like, let's just act like 352 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 1: nothing happened and maybe they won't notice the baby's dead. 353 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:19,679 Speaker 1: The baby had been taken out of the oven and 354 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:21,120 Speaker 1: put in the crib, right. 355 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 6: Yeah. 356 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 3: In his police statement, the grandfather of the baby said 357 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,919 Speaker 3: that he arrived home, ran inside the house, smelled the 358 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 3: smoke inside the house, and then found the baby in 359 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 3: the crib with burnstead. 360 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 1: But when the first responders got there, where was the baby? 361 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 3: The baby was on a like a car seat near 362 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 3: the front door. 363 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,159 Speaker 1: Okay, so he must have I'm just deducing that he 364 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: was going to take the baby to the hospital and 365 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 1: put the baby in the car seat, and that's where 366 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: the baby was. But when the granddad got home, there's 367 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: only one adult there. The baby had been placed by 368 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: the mother. We can deduce in the crib us know, 369 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: Amanda in yes, Joining me right now is forensic pathologist 370 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 1: former chief Medical Examiner Alleghany County in Pittsburgh, doctor Carl E. Williams, 371 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 1: who has literally performed thousands of autopsies. Doctor Williams, thank 372 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: you for being with us, My pleasure, Nancy. Doctor Williams. 373 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,439 Speaker 1: How much of your body has to be burned before 374 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 1: you literally die from being burned? I mean, how do 375 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:34,640 Speaker 1: you die from burns? It's not like your heart shuts 376 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:36,360 Speaker 1: down or you can't breathe anymore. 377 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 8: How do you die from burns? You have to remember 378 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 8: that the skin, the largest organ in the body, protects 379 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 8: everything from fluid balance and things. So you die in 380 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 8: a number of ways to die on, but you can 381 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 8: die just from the burns themselves. Of scoring the skin but. 382 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,680 Speaker 1: Wait, I don't understand that. How do you die from 383 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: a burn? How does that make your heart stop beating? 384 00:25:59,280 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 6: Oh? 385 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 8: Sec, it causes dehydration, The infections through the skin, fluid 386 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 8: balances all take place through the skin. And again there 387 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 8: are many different types of burns. People that die and 388 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:18,160 Speaker 8: fires die of carbon monoxide poisoning, typically burns. For burns, 389 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 8: you lose the other layer of your skin. That's the 390 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 8: largest organ in the body, that's for protecting you against fluids, 391 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 8: against infection. 392 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: But this baby couldn't have died by infection in the oven. 393 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 8: No, this day, this baby dies from hyperthermia. And the 394 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,880 Speaker 8: exact sequence of events and how you will never know, 395 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 8: I mean you can't. You can't do an experiment that 396 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,640 Speaker 8: obviously shows the exact mechanism and things. 397 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 4: The clearest thing in. 398 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 8: This case to me, and it's been since the first 399 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 8: I heard about it. His mother is clearly crazy. Okay, 400 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 8: Now I'm not a Hey, hey. 401 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 1: Hold on, boss, you're the medical doctor. Are you a lawyer? 402 00:26:58,320 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 1: And nobody told me. 403 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 8: And I'm not lawyer either of so. 404 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: Crazy means you don't know right from wrong at the 405 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,919 Speaker 1: time of the incident. I believe, and I would argue, no, 406 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 1: that by taking the baby out of the oven and 407 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: trying to put her in the crib like nothing happened 408 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,199 Speaker 1: that indicase you know something was wrong at that moment. 409 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 8: This woman had no idea what she was doing because 410 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 8: of the combination of whatever her psychiatric problem is, okay, 411 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,920 Speaker 8: and the moment. I'm sorry, I don't think there's any 412 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 8: intent here. She's just deeply, deeply into some form of 413 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 8: abnormality that we really don't know. Have you. 414 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:40,439 Speaker 1: Interviewed her and made a medical diagnosis as a skiatrist? 415 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 1: I mean, why are you saying that she was mentally disturbed? 416 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: And it's got to be insane to be a legal 417 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: defense in this case. So what leads you to say 418 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 1: to say that? I'm very curious just because it's a horrible, 419 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: heinous thing what she did, it is it is. 420 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 8: I don't doubt that at all. I don't think she 421 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 8: had any idea what she was doing. 422 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:02,719 Speaker 1: Why at the time, Why do you say that? 423 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 8: Well? 424 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:03,679 Speaker 5: Kill you. 425 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 8: First of all, let me just say that I talked 426 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 8: to a lot of prescient women that are very tired 427 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 8: of being pregnant. Okay, I don't think that has any 428 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 8: effect on it whatsoever. I'll tell you because it is 429 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 8: extraordinarily easy, okay to kill a baby. Okay, Smothering is 430 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 8: the obvious way, all right, if the woman had any intelligence, 431 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 8: any perception. You know, in cases where you kill a 432 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 8: baby by giving a mace atonia, you kill a baby 433 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 8: by smothering, you go to the phone and you see 434 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 8: queries on all of this. I bet you're not going 435 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 8: to find anything. 436 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: You bet I'm not going to find any what? 437 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 8: Oh? Any? Well, I don't think you're going to find 438 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 8: a Google search for Kevin babies and ovens. I don't 439 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 8: think you're going to find a Google search for hypothermia. 440 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait wait? Are you saying 441 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: that you believe doctor Carl Williams that if I ran 442 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: a Google search I would not find sane people that 443 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:52,719 Speaker 1: did this. 444 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 8: I don't think of this case. 445 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: Hold on just one moment, then let's take a listen 446 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,040 Speaker 1: to our cut twelve, our friends at crime Online. What 447 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 1: does the name China Arnold ring a bell? Because I 448 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 1: will never forget that name. Listen. 449 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 7: China Arnold had a baby with longtime boyfriend Terrell Tally, 450 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 7: and they named the little girl Paris Tally. The relationship 451 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 7: between Arnold Andterrell was volatile at best, and during a 452 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 7: drunken argument, Kelly claimed that he didn't believe he was 453 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 7: the biological father of Paris. In a fit of anger China, 454 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,959 Speaker 7: Arnold takes the twenty eight day old infant, puts her 455 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 7: in a microwave, and turns it on high. After at 456 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 7: least two minutes, Arnold takes the baby out of the 457 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 7: microwave and puts her on the table. The next day, 458 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 7: Paris Tally is cold and stiff when her parents take 459 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 7: her to the hospital, where she is pronounced dead and. 460 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: More from Sydney Sumner on China Arnold may she rot 461 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 1: in hell. China. 462 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 9: Arnold was arrested and charged with killing Paris Tally. Medical 463 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 9: experts testified that the baby probably was in the microwave 464 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 9: for more than two minutes, and doctor Marcella Fierro, the 465 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 9: retired chief medical Examiner for the State of Virginia, said 466 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 9: of Paris Tally, she died because she was overhere. She 467 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 9: was overcooked. 468 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: It's not just hot ovens. Take us now our Seventeen. 469 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 7: Hours after Troy Kohler is reported missing in Texas, investigators 470 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 7: are trying to figure out if he is a runaway 471 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 7: or if he was grabbed by a stranger. When his 472 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 7: body is found, he never left home. During a search 473 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 7: of the property, authorities find the seven year old inside 474 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 7: a top load washing machine in the garage. An autopsy 475 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 7: reveals the boy suffered from asphyxiation, blunt force trauma, and 476 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 7: possible drowning. His death is ruled a homicide. Troy Kohler 477 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 7: has new and old injuries on his body, and investigators 478 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 7: uncovered text messages sent to the boy from his adoptive parents, 479 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 7: where the mother threatens to put him in the oven 480 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 7: and the father threatens to hang him from a tree. 481 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 7: His adoptive parents, forty two year old Jermaine Thomas, is 482 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 7: charged with capital murder. His thirty five year old wife, 483 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 7: Tiffany Thomas, is charged with injury to a child biomission. 484 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 1: There you go, washer, Well that's not all. Lakeisha Adams. 485 00:30:59,360 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: Listen to this. 486 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 7: Lakeisha Adams calls Bogolusa, Louisiana Police just before seven pm 487 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 7: with an unbelievable story. Sergeant Darryl Darden says, the eighteen 488 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 7: year old mother of two claims somebody came into her 489 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 7: house placed her three month old baby in the dryer. 490 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 7: And when she came home to the house, she found 491 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 7: her baby and got him out of the dryer. Police 492 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 7: find the baby lying on Adam's couch, is badly burned 493 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 7: and has been dead for several hours. Police push for 494 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 7: more details, and Lakeisha Adams cracks and admits she's the 495 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 7: one who put her three month old baby in a 496 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 7: clothes dryer and started the machine tumbling and burning the 497 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 7: baby boy until he was dead. She doesn't say why, 498 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 7: she doesn't have to, but she's now being charged with 499 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 7: first degree murder. 500 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: I've got so many I can't even get to all 501 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: of them, doctor Williams, perfectly sane people that murder their 502 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 1: children with ovens, microwaves, washing machines, dryers, dishwashers. 503 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,719 Speaker 8: Yes, there's one thing that's radically differs again all of 504 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 8: the stories you said, And I got to say that 505 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 8: every case you do as a forensic pathology is absolutely unique. 506 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 8: It's different from all of the other cases, okay, And 507 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 8: that's what makes this case different. You don't have all 508 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 8: the ancillary stories of fights and other people seeing that 509 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 8: they're going to do it, or confessions and things. You've 510 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 8: got nothing in this case, okay, except at least at 511 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,959 Speaker 8: this point, except the fact that she does something that 512 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 8: is so completely outside of the ordinary that you can't 513 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 8: imagine that she has real intent to do it. She 514 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 8: is deeply embedded in some sort of a psychiatric pubm, 515 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 8: which obviously I'm not qualified to talk about. But no, 516 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 8: this case for what it is, and you know, I've 517 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 8: felt that from the first time you told me about 518 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 8: this case. Without all of the other details, I knew 519 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 8: that she had to have some sort of a psychiatric condition, 520 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 8: and I knew she had to be on probably legal drugs. 521 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 8: We don't even hear anything about illegal drugs, which are 522 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 8: always a part of this Okay, And that's the single 523 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 8: most important part to me in this case in terms 524 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 8: of the ultimate question of intent. She had tended to 525 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 8: kill her baby because she was tired of being bragged. 526 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 8: There are a lot more ways to do it that 527 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 8: would not be detective. 528 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 1: Okay. I think I understand where you're going crime stories 529 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 1: with me. It's a grace BERNARDA Violona. I want your 530 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: veteran trial lawyer. I want to address with doctor Carl Williams, 531 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 1: who is a pathologist, is saying, whenever I have had 532 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 1: a child homicide, I wonder why of course, the state 533 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 1: doesn't have to prove why, because if you kill your baby, 534 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: whether you put them in the oven, or you throw 535 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: them out the window, or you smother them, or you 536 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 1: put them in the microwave or the dishwasher or some 537 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 1: other appliance, the reality is your baby. And I don't 538 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: think one child murder is any more or less heinous 539 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: than another. I've got these stacks of perfectly sane people 540 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 1: that murder their child by appliance, and they are no 541 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 1: more or less guilty than any of the other adults 542 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,880 Speaker 1: that murder a child by starving it, by beating it, 543 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:37,759 Speaker 1: by smothering it. This is more rare, but there is 544 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 1: no indication at all that this mother was on drugs 545 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 1: had a drug problem. She was fine the night before, 546 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 1: she was pleasant that morning. 547 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 6: We'll probably never find out why she did what she did. 548 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 6: But what I do want to point out to you, Nancy, 549 00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 6: is that her father. I believe that their father or 550 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,320 Speaker 6: mother are going to be key witnesses in this case, 551 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,919 Speaker 6: because the father or the mother, because it's not quite 552 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,399 Speaker 6: clear from the complaint, said that she said that they 553 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 6: left her fine, that she was fine. The baby and 554 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:15,320 Speaker 6: the mother were fine right before they left the house. Also, 555 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 6: what I wanted to point out is that when the 556 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,240 Speaker 6: father goes to the house, the baby is in the crib. 557 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:22,400 Speaker 6: So how is it that all of a sudden you 558 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 6: figure out and know where the crib is because that's 559 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 6: where they found a baby. But you're saying that accidentally 560 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,360 Speaker 6: earlier on that you put it in the oven, thinking 561 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 6: that it was the crib. The parents are going to 562 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 6: be key witnesses. I don't want to hear about the 563 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 6: psychiatric defense because you don't have it. 564 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:43,359 Speaker 1: Here, not yet. You're absolutely right. But of course what 565 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:47,320 Speaker 1: doctor Carl Williams is saying maybe echoed in the minds 566 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 1: of the gurrors. So the state's going to have to 567 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:55,759 Speaker 1: address that because in straight vernacular, anybody could say, well, 568 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: she's crazy, she put her baby in the oven. But 569 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 1: crazy on the street does not mean legal insanity under 570 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 1: the oldman Naughton rule, which is brought over to our 571 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: country from Great Britain. And it's a very easy litmus test, 572 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 1: and that is did you know right from wrong at 573 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 1: the time of the incident. It's really simple and you 574 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 1: don't need a lawyer to explain it. But I want 575 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:24,280 Speaker 1: you to hear this leading up to the birth. Remember 576 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,880 Speaker 1: the baby's only one month old. Everything was fine. The 577 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 1: mom was seemed excited about having the baby. Listen to 578 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 1: Sidney Sumner Crime Online. 579 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,439 Speaker 9: Mariah Thomas's baby is due in December, and the mom 580 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 9: to be is documenting her pregnancy on social media. On 581 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 9: August twelfth, four months before the arrival of her baby girl, 582 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 9: Thomas writes, uugh, I'm tired of being pregnant. I wish 583 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 9: Zelani came early. This comment is met with several posts 584 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 9: of encouragement from friends and followers. In another post, she writes, 585 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:57,399 Speaker 9: got an ultrasound appointment this Tuesday to see Zelani. I'm 586 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 9: hella happy. I just love seeing my daughter on old time, 587 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,800 Speaker 9: so moving around in my belly seems perfectly normal, natural 588 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 9: and happy to me. 589 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 1: She can post online regarding her ultra sound Let's go 590 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,240 Speaker 1: to cut three from Nicole parton crime Online. 591 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 2: After the birth of Zariah, Mariah Thomas continues to remain 592 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 2: active on social media, posting pictures of herself with Zariah 593 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,480 Speaker 2: together and separate. At times, Thomas post are excited and 594 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 2: other days not so much. January twenty one, she writes, 595 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 2: my goal this year for twenty twenty four is to 596 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 2: be the best mother I can be to my beautiful daughter, 597 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 2: and to stay out of drama, and to get a 598 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 2: place for me and my daughter and for only me 599 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,799 Speaker 2: and my daughter. Five days later, Thomas post, I don't 600 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,839 Speaker 2: have any friends at all. This s word sad man 601 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 2: and the ones I do got only f with me 602 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:47,759 Speaker 2: on their own time. 603 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 1: Now, Nicole Parton left out all the curse words. That 604 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 1: was this sad man and the ones I do. The 605 00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:01,280 Speaker 1: friends I do have only with me on their time. Okay, 606 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 1: this is the mom that you guys are talking about 607 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 1: with all her issues. Isn't it true to Amanda Yen, 608 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:15,840 Speaker 1: investigative reporter Daily Beast that just before the baby was killed, 609 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 1: the mother, Mariah Thomas, aged twenty six, posts a cash 610 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:25,800 Speaker 1: at link for people to send her money. Is that true? 611 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:26,840 Speaker 3: Yes, that's true. 612 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 1: Okay, Doctor Angel Arnold, I think I know what you're 613 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:34,400 Speaker 1: going to say. Since your specialty is post one of 614 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 1: them is postpartum depression. 615 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,920 Speaker 4: Helped me out here, Nancy, As I've been listening to 616 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,120 Speaker 4: all of this, let's not forget we've done these kinds 617 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,760 Speaker 4: of stories before, and we have ascertained. 618 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,680 Speaker 1: When have you ever covered a baby in oven? With me? 619 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 4: We have covered children babies being killed by their mothers 620 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:53,920 Speaker 4: then on federal occasion. 621 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 1: That is true. 622 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:56,800 Speaker 4: And one of the things, and one of the things 623 00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,720 Speaker 4: in a recent story that we did which was very important, 624 00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:03,759 Speaker 4: was that psychosis can come and go. A woman can 625 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,560 Speaker 4: not be psychotic and then be psychotic. From what I 626 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,439 Speaker 4: see in what in the story that's being told here 627 00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:13,120 Speaker 4: in the in the events that are being laid out here, 628 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,920 Speaker 4: the woman was happy to be having the baby, and 629 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,800 Speaker 4: there was nothing wrong when the parents left that morning. 630 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 4: So why did she all of a sudden kill the baby? 631 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 4: What happened from that morning when she was seemingly okay? 632 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,360 Speaker 1: What do you mean what happened? You think the baby 633 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,239 Speaker 1: slapped her in the face as she got back at 634 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:34,880 Speaker 1: the baby. What do you mean what happened before she 635 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,560 Speaker 1: murdered her baby? What could the baby do? Cry? Poop 636 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 1: its fans? I mean, what's the felony, what's the what's 637 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,680 Speaker 1: the trigger for mom to murder her baby? 638 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,080 Speaker 4: Exactly? What was the provocation? Nancy? 639 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 1: I would say, no contents. 640 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,720 Speaker 4: And purposes, The baby was, everybody was fine, and both 641 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:57,600 Speaker 4: of her parents left the house thinking that everything was okay. 642 00:39:57,640 --> 00:39:59,839 Speaker 4: Before they left, and the next thing you know she's 643 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,200 Speaker 4: opening an oven and putting the baby. 644 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:02,440 Speaker 6: Inside of it. 645 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:06,839 Speaker 4: And your point is my point is the baby is 646 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 4: one month old. 647 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,680 Speaker 1: Okay, could you please say something we haven't already said. 648 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,880 Speaker 4: I want to know what part mental illness has played 649 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:16,439 Speaker 4: in thus? 650 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:18,600 Speaker 1: Okay, can I ask you something? And this is a 651 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:24,400 Speaker 1: yes no, Doctor Angie Arnold, Okay, do you have one fact, 652 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:30,120 Speaker 1: one fact of prior mental treatment? Do you have one 653 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:34,040 Speaker 1: fact about her not being in GP general population in 654 00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:38,040 Speaker 1: the Jackson County Detention Center because she's in GP. Do 655 00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:41,759 Speaker 1: you have one fact that she was talking out of 656 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,080 Speaker 1: her mind when cops got there? Nothing? Nothing? Do you 657 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:48,800 Speaker 1: know something that I don't know that Amanda In hasn't 658 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:50,880 Speaker 1: told us she knows everything about the case. 659 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:53,279 Speaker 4: What if there are things that we don't know about. 660 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:55,960 Speaker 1: Dear Lord in Heaven? So bottom line, you don't. Amanda 661 00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:01,320 Speaker 1: In did tell me something. She said that a friend. Oh, 662 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,720 Speaker 1: by the way, right before a few days before killing 663 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:10,799 Speaker 1: the baby, the mom goes online. She's very proficient at 664 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:15,080 Speaker 1: online posting, at social media, and she says, shortly before 665 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 1: she killed the baby, motherfuckers claim they my friend, but 666 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 1: don't ever check up on me? Or Ziiah h I 667 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,880 Speaker 1: wonder who that could be. Who's the MF she's talking 668 00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 1: about the baby's dad, her friends? Who? Why is she angry? 669 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 1: Why is she posting this? Why is she posting online 670 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,720 Speaker 1: for money and claiming it's for her birthday? Can somebody 671 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,920 Speaker 1: tell me that? But Amanda In did tell me that 672 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:49,000 Speaker 1: a friend said that she the mom was mentally ill. 673 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:51,399 Speaker 1: Isn't that true, Amanda In? You did tell me. 674 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,880 Speaker 3: That, yes, and if I may add as well, this 675 00:41:55,040 --> 00:42:00,440 Speaker 3: friend also said that Mariah had been on Medicaid for 676 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,680 Speaker 3: her mental illness, but that the doctors had told her 677 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:06,680 Speaker 3: to stop taking it while she was pregnant because of 678 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:08,520 Speaker 3: things that could happen with the baby. 679 00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:08,960 Speaker 6: Now. 680 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,880 Speaker 3: The friend told me that when she asked Mariah, she 681 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:15,360 Speaker 3: had gone back on medication once the baby was born 682 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:17,759 Speaker 3: because she wasn't pregnant anymore and there was no more 683 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:21,359 Speaker 3: risk to the baby in utero. Mariah had told her, no, 684 00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:24,360 Speaker 3: she wasn't going on medication. She wasn't going to go 685 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:25,240 Speaker 3: back on medication. 686 00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:30,240 Speaker 4: And Nancy, that is a huge part to this story. Okay, 687 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,200 Speaker 4: she has been off of her medication for the entirety 688 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:37,000 Speaker 4: of her pregnancy. Then she delivers a baby and I'm 689 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,239 Speaker 4: just Nancy. I don't know if she was mentally ill 690 00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,160 Speaker 4: at the time or not, but that piece of this 691 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:45,719 Speaker 4: story is a very important piece to the story. Off 692 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:49,120 Speaker 4: of your medicine. Nine months during your pregnancy, you deliver 693 00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:52,160 Speaker 4: a baby, and if she's supposed to be on medication, 694 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,719 Speaker 4: then something could have gone wrong with her mentally. I'm 695 00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:57,399 Speaker 4: just saying that. 696 00:42:57,640 --> 00:42:59,879 Speaker 1: Let me tell you something, doctor Angieson. I have been 697 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:05,960 Speaker 1: in the very very difficult position very often between championing 698 00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:10,479 Speaker 1: one side or the other, and now I have to pick. 699 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:15,960 Speaker 1: Am I going to champion the mother who baked her 700 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,840 Speaker 1: baby dead, who was perfectly fine the night before on 701 00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,480 Speaker 1: the phone, who was perfectly fine that morning. I still 702 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:25,239 Speaker 1: don't know who turned on the oven, but I guarantee 703 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,239 Speaker 1: you the parents didn't leave that oven on when they 704 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,000 Speaker 1: left to go to work. So that only leaves her 705 00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:32,840 Speaker 1: unless you think the baby turned the oven onmen that 706 00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:39,640 Speaker 1: said her, or the one month old baby who is 707 00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:46,240 Speaker 1: the innocent here. If this mother should have been on meds, 708 00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:53,560 Speaker 1: it will have to rise under the law to legal insanity. 709 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:58,160 Speaker 1: It can't be street vernacular. In other words, civilian taught wow, 710 00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:02,920 Speaker 1: she must have been crazy. No, they will have to 711 00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:10,759 Speaker 1: prove insanity in court because I appreciate what you guys 712 00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,719 Speaker 1: are all saying about the mom. O, poor mom. She 713 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:21,080 Speaker 1: had a mental illness. The baby died in excruciating, horrible death, 714 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,359 Speaker 1: and I want to find out what was on this 715 00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:29,560 Speaker 1: mother's cell phone on our social media postings before I 716 00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:33,560 Speaker 1: agree that there was any mental defing. Now, if there is, 717 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:41,839 Speaker 1: then she should be treated in a facility, and once 718 00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,920 Speaker 1: she is cured, if that ever happens, may not ever happen, 719 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:52,120 Speaker 1: she may then do her jail time for murdering this child. 720 00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:56,920 Speaker 1: And that's where I land. But we wait as justice. 721 00:44:56,960 --> 00:45:00,320 Speaker 1: Some thoughts, goodbye you 722 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:02,040 Speaker 8: M