WEBVTT - Former US Ambassador Nicholas Burns Talks Trade, Tariffs & Tensions

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. I want to start

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<v Speaker 1>with the meetings that took place over the weekend in Geneva,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm curious sort of how you look at the

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<v Speaker 1>way they unfolded and the outcome of them. Do you

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<v Speaker 1>see it as a positive step the agreement that has

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<v Speaker 1>come to.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, First of all, I start from a first principle,

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<v Speaker 2>and that is that China's been the largest and most

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<v Speaker 2>important disruptor in the global trade system for about three

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<v Speaker 2>decades right now. There's a reason why the United States

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<v Speaker 2>and many other countries around the world have placed terrafts

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<v Speaker 2>on China. China's manufactured exports in particular, is because China's

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<v Speaker 2>been dumping them around the world below the cost of production,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's been a killer for jobs both in the

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<v Speaker 2>United States historically in the last several decades, but also

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<v Speaker 2>around the world. You have a situation now where Turkey

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<v Speaker 2>and India and Brazil and Colombia and Mexico and Canada

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<v Speaker 2>and the United States and the European Union have all

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<v Speaker 2>put tariffs on China. So I have a degree of

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<v Speaker 2>sympathy for the situation that President Trump and his team inherited,

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<v Speaker 2>which was a situation that we left when I left

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<v Speaker 2>in mid January as ambassador to China President Biden a

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<v Speaker 2>year ago I made twenty twenty four placed one hundred

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<v Speaker 2>percent tariffs on Chinese evs, fifty percent on semiconductors, twenty

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<v Speaker 2>five percent on lithium batteries.

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<v Speaker 3>So the root of this problem.

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<v Speaker 2>Is China and Chinese trade policy. The Chinese are trying

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<v Speaker 2>to act now. You sought in the statements over the

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<v Speaker 2>weekend from Vice Premier Hurly Funk is that they're the

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<v Speaker 2>innocent party, that they're the victim of this trade whereby

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<v Speaker 2>President Trump would in fact, and that they're the responsible party,

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<v Speaker 2>when in fact the reality is quite different. I think

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<v Speaker 2>it's important to set the stage having said that these

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<v Speaker 2>are going to be very very difficult negotiations over the

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<v Speaker 2>next ninety days. I think in the end, self interest

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<v Speaker 2>and logic will prevail. Both sides need and agreement. Was

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<v Speaker 2>encouraging to hear Treasury Secretary Scott bess And say that

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<v Speaker 2>they had agreed in principle they don't want to couple

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<v Speaker 2>these two economies. Last year, we had a six hundred

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<v Speaker 2>and forty two billion dollars two way trade relationship in

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<v Speaker 2>goods and services with China. China is our third largest

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<v Speaker 2>trade partner. About a million American jobs depend on trade

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<v Speaker 2>with China. Upwards of twenty million manufacturing jobs in China

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<v Speaker 2>depend on trade with the United States. So neither country

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<v Speaker 2>can afford to sunder the economic ties and the millions

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<v Speaker 2>of interactions that our private sector has had with the

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<v Speaker 2>Chinese economy over the last forty years.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think in the.

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<v Speaker 2>End there will be a trade agreement, but getting there,

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<v Speaker 2>I think is going to be extraordinarily difficult.

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<v Speaker 1>During your tenure, you were trying to, if I may,

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<v Speaker 1>rehabilitate a relationship that had worsened during the first Trump administration,

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<v Speaker 1>develop conduits for communication, re establish economic and security ties.

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<v Speaker 1>When you left that post, could you've envision this turning

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<v Speaker 1>out the way that it has in terms of how

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<v Speaker 1>the rhetoric has been ratcheted up, the tariffs have been

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<v Speaker 1>put in place. Is it the worst case that you

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<v Speaker 1>envisioned or worse yet?

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<v Speaker 2>Still, I certainly did not anticipate one hundred and forty

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<v Speaker 2>five percent American terrafts on China or one hundred and

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<v Speaker 2>twenty five percent Chinese tariffs on American goods, and the

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<v Speaker 2>trade war that has resulted effectively led to a trade

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<v Speaker 2>embargo as of the past week, when no ships were

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<v Speaker 2>sailing with goods back and forth, when manufacturers couldn't export

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<v Speaker 2>to each other's countries, and you see the significant shortage

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<v Speaker 2>of goods that traditionally are important to both economies. So

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't expect that to happen at all. And that's

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<v Speaker 2>the most important thing happening in the global economy right now,

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<v Speaker 2>which is another reason I think that eventually both sides

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<v Speaker 2>have to agree to a deal to calm global markets.

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<v Speaker 2>We're the two largest global economies, so we have a

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<v Speaker 2>profound impact on the health of global economy. But we

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<v Speaker 2>also need the global economy to be functioning in a

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<v Speaker 2>rational and stable way. There's so much at stake. I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't see that happening. I think few people saw that happening.

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<v Speaker 2>You remember Canada, Trump pledged sixty percent tariffs on Chinese goods,

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<v Speaker 2>and people thought that.

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<v Speaker 3>Would be a revolution.

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<v Speaker 2>Will one hundred and forty five was a revolution of

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<v Speaker 2>a different magnitude. And I think, you know, we're not

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<v Speaker 2>anywhere close to being out of the woods. If the

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<v Speaker 2>levels now are set at thirty percent tariffs on the

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<v Speaker 2>American side imposed on China and ten percent by China

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<v Speaker 2>imposed on the United States. Those are historically high levels,

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<v Speaker 2>and a lot of trade will not be able to

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<v Speaker 2>take place. It just simply won't be economical for people

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<v Speaker 2>to be importing manufacturers at that level. So this is

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<v Speaker 2>an urgent crisis. I assume this is going to be

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<v Speaker 2>one of the highest priorities of the Trump administration and

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<v Speaker 2>of the Chinese government. But I hope that cooler heads

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<v Speaker 2>will prevail, and I do think for the long term

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<v Speaker 2>here health of the US China relationship.

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<v Speaker 3>Trade's a major part of it.

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<v Speaker 2>And a decoupling of a two global economies, of the

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<v Speaker 2>two economy, let me say that again. Sure, a decoupling

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<v Speaker 2>of the US and Chinese economies would have profoundly negative

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<v Speaker 2>consequences for both. So getting this right is going to

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<v Speaker 2>be very important. Trade negotiations normally take a year or

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<v Speaker 2>two or three. To try to compress this level of

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<v Speaker 2>complexity in the ninety days is going to be a

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<v Speaker 2>real negotiating challenge, but it has to be done.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, well, the difficulty of establishing dialogue between these

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<v Speaker 1>two countries. The Treasure Secretary talks a lot about a

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<v Speaker 1>consultative mechanism. It's called it the Geneva mechanism. Going forward

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<v Speaker 1>here and establishing kind of regular communication. What's the going

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<v Speaker 1>to take to make sure that happens. We don't yet

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<v Speaker 1>know when they're next going to talk or they're next

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<v Speaker 1>going to meet.

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<v Speaker 2>I think self interest is going to dictate a fast

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<v Speaker 2>paced of these negotiations over the next ninety days. Both

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<v Speaker 2>sides have committed to this consultative process, and it has

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<v Speaker 2>to happen at a very high level. In China, the

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<v Speaker 2>decision maker below President Xi Jinping is Vice Premier Huli fun,

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<v Speaker 2>the head of the Chinese delegation, who met Secretary of Bessant.

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<v Speaker 2>Secretary of Vessint has a I think a good reputation globally,

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<v Speaker 2>and he's the logical person to lead, along with James

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<v Speaker 2>and Greer, the US trade representative from the American side.

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<v Speaker 2>So the right people are going to be involved, but

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<v Speaker 2>it's going to have to be at a really quick pace,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's going to have to be done with a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of alacrity and a lot of determination to get

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<v Speaker 2>to the to get to the finish line.

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<v Speaker 1>A minute ago, you spoke about how China is portraying

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<v Speaker 1>not just the talks, but the way that this trade

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<v Speaker 1>war is unfolding. And I'm very curious sort of.

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<v Speaker 3>How effective you think that is.

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<v Speaker 1>Do they walk away from this feeling like they have

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<v Speaker 1>the upper hand. Do you think the world views them

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<v Speaker 1>as having the upper hand in these negotiations.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the Chinese are the Chinese press, the nationalist press,

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<v Speaker 2>and to an extent, the government of China have been

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<v Speaker 2>have been saying that they held out, that they stood strong,

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<v Speaker 2>and that they faced up to the American tariff threats

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<v Speaker 2>and they did not blink. And they've been trumpeting that

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<v Speaker 2>line in the Global South. President she just hosted most

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<v Speaker 2>of the major leaders from South America at a major

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<v Speaker 2>summit he's been making. He made a trip in Southeast

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<v Speaker 2>Asia to the Asian country. So they clearly are signaling

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<v Speaker 2>to the United States, you're not going to bully us.

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<v Speaker 2>We have other options. You've seen a big increase in

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<v Speaker 2>Chinese manufactured exports to their neighbors in the Southeast Asian

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<v Speaker 2>Organization ASIAN and so they're very definitely standing up has

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<v Speaker 2>become a nationalist, nationalist issue. When Vice President JD. Vance

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<v Speaker 2>referred to the Chinese as peasants an unfortunate term under

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<v Speaker 2>any circumstances.

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<v Speaker 3>But that really lit a fire in.

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<v Speaker 2>Chinese social media, which is a force in Chinese society.

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<v Speaker 2>So yes, the government of China is trying to portray

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<v Speaker 2>itself as the steady, solid country that stood up to

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<v Speaker 2>the United States. I think that China needs a deal too.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a reason why the Chinese met with Secretary Vessant.

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<v Speaker 2>The economy is slowing down. If they grew by five

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<v Speaker 2>percent in twenty twenty four, well most economists would say

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<v Speaker 2>they probably grew by less.

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<v Speaker 3>They're facing lower.

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<v Speaker 2>GDP growth for the next five to ten years. They

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<v Speaker 2>have a property crisis that continues to linger.

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<v Speaker 3>They have a consumption problem.

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<v Speaker 2>The Chinese people are not consuming in a rational way,

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<v Speaker 2>sitting on their money because of the uncertainty of the

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<v Speaker 2>investment environment in China itself. They have strength in the

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<v Speaker 2>Chinese economy and normous strengths, but they also have these weaknesses.

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<v Speaker 2>China could not afford a sustained trade war with the

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<v Speaker 2>United States. That's why they were at the table, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's why they've agreed to a deal in ninety days.

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<v Speaker 1>What did you learn being there about that country's capacity

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<v Speaker 1>to whether something like this so you're saying they couldn't

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<v Speaker 1>sustain it long term, But give us some site into

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<v Speaker 1>how they had been preparing for a moment like this

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<v Speaker 1>one where there would be this kind of geopolitical test.

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<v Speaker 2>I was in China, of course, during the presidential election,

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<v Speaker 2>our presidential election of November twenty twenty four, and as

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<v Speaker 2>soon as President Trump was declared the winner in that

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<v Speaker 2>election and prepared to take office, the Chinese began to

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<v Speaker 2>prepare for a trade war. They saw it coming. They

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<v Speaker 2>had listened to Candidate Trump. They've did a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>remobilization of their supply chain to try to stock up

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<v Speaker 2>on minerals and on technologies that were important to them,

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<v Speaker 2>and they expected this. They also have an authoritarian system

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<v Speaker 2>of government, and so it's one man rule, and President

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<v Speaker 2>Hijinping whatever he says goes. He prepared the Chinese people

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<v Speaker 2>for a long struggle with the United States. And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>China is like the United States. People are patriotic about

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<v Speaker 2>their country. I would say there's a highly nationalist element

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<v Speaker 2>in Chinese social media and their undreds of millions of

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<v Speaker 2>Chinese involved in Chinese social media. So this was a

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<v Speaker 2>moment where the leadership said, we have to stand strong

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<v Speaker 2>and defend our country and they think they've done that.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you have a clear sense of what the US,

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<v Speaker 1>what the Trump administration wants this relationship to be like.

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<v Speaker 1>I detect kind of a change in rhetoric where you

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<v Speaker 1>have the US Trade Representative Jamison Greer a few days

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<v Speaker 1>ago County getting very negative terms, and then President Trump

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<v Speaker 1>after this deal was announced saying that the relationship is

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<v Speaker 1>very good. What does the US want this relationship to

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<v Speaker 1>be like?

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<v Speaker 2>At this moment, I think we have not seen a

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<v Speaker 2>full explanation or articulation of what President Trump wants to

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<v Speaker 2>do writ large in China policy. Because it's the most

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<v Speaker 2>important relationship that the United States has around the world,

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<v Speaker 2>it's also the most complicated and problematic for the United States.

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<v Speaker 2>I do sense as I listened to Secretary of Rubio

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<v Speaker 2>Secretary hag Seth, that they on issues where the Biden

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<v Speaker 2>administer was very strong, agree that we have to stand

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<v Speaker 2>up for our policy to inhibit a Chinese invasion of Taiwan,

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<v Speaker 2>that we have to stand up against what the Chinese,

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<v Speaker 2>the PLA, the People's Liberation Army is doing to try

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<v Speaker 2>to intimidate the Philippines and the South China Sea or

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<v Speaker 2>Japan in the East China Sea, that we have to

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<v Speaker 2>be supportive of India in its border struggle along the

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<v Speaker 2>Himalayas border disagreement with China, and certainly have to oppose

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<v Speaker 2>what the Chinese have done to be such an important

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<v Speaker 2>source of microelectronics and dual use goods for the Russian

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<v Speaker 2>defense industrial base as they prosecute this war in Ukraine.

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<v Speaker 2>So on the national security side, it seems to me

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<v Speaker 2>there's going to be continuity with where President Biden and

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<v Speaker 2>our team left off. I think the bigger question mark is,

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<v Speaker 2>and we're seeing it play out in real time right now,

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<v Speaker 2>are on tariffs. On the future of the economic relationship.

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<v Speaker 2>I was involved heavily involved with the American business community,

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<v Speaker 2>with the American farm and ranch and fisheries community. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>we have tens of thousands of American businesses doing business

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<v Speaker 2>in China. It is our third largest trade partner. A

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<v Speaker 2>lot of American companies depend on either importing or from

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<v Speaker 2>China exporting to China, and so I think there you

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<v Speaker 2>obviously have to follow the comments of President Trump. He's

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<v Speaker 2>a very transparent leader, and he's very transactional, and he

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<v Speaker 2>has always spoken about President Xi Jinping with a great

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<v Speaker 2>deal of respect. He's been very solicitous of him. So

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<v Speaker 2>it seems to me that President Trump is heading in

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<v Speaker 2>a direction on economics to be more closely engaged and

0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:47.960
<v Speaker 2>to continue a full throated economic relationship between the two countries.

0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:50.520
<v Speaker 2>I actually think that would be a good thing if

0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:54.640
<v Speaker 2>we continue to trade with China and try to carry

0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.640
<v Speaker 2>on this level of economic activity. At the same time

0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:01.439
<v Speaker 2>that we have to compete with China both on technology,

0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:05.920
<v Speaker 2>whether it's AI quantum computing, biotech, or in some of

0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:08.440
<v Speaker 2>those national security issues that I talked about, where the

0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:12.240
<v Speaker 2>PLA has been extraordinarily aggressive and we have to find

0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:14.079
<v Speaker 2>a way to deter them.

0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:17.760
<v Speaker 1>Fentanyl is something that you worked on quite a bit

0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:19.760
<v Speaker 1>when you were there. A point that you made, if

0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:24.920
<v Speaker 1>I remember rightly, is sanctioning China on that front isn't

0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:26.200
<v Speaker 1>going to be enough. There has to be some kind

0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:30.439
<v Speaker 1>of collaboration when it comes to security and getting US

0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:33.360
<v Speaker 1>law enforcement more involved in making sure that the chemicals

0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:36.679
<v Speaker 1>involved in the preparation and manufacturer of fentanyl can't do it.

0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:40.480
<v Speaker 1>Do you have a clear sentence on this specific topic

0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:42.960
<v Speaker 1>of what the Biden administration wants They do talk about

0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:44.760
<v Speaker 1>it a lot clear that it's something that they want

0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:48.320
<v Speaker 1>to negotiate over these next ninety days and beyond, what

0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:50.720
<v Speaker 1>are they hoping will change When it comes to the

0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:51.600
<v Speaker 1>production of fentanyl.

0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:54.720
<v Speaker 2>I think President Trump's been right to say that fentanyl's

0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:57.520
<v Speaker 2>one of the top issues in this relationship because death

0:13:57.559 --> 0:14:01.720
<v Speaker 2>by overdose in the States is a public health crisis.

0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:04.000
<v Speaker 2>That's the majority, it's the leading cause of death of

0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:07.840
<v Speaker 2>Americans eighteen to forty nine. The facts are that the

0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:11.199
<v Speaker 2>majority of the precursor chemicals that make up the synthetic

0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:13.520
<v Speaker 2>opioid come from the Chinese black market, not from the

0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:16.800
<v Speaker 2>Chinese government, but the black market in China. So China's

0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:21.400
<v Speaker 2>an authoritarian country, has an authoritarian government, it has the

0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:25.920
<v Speaker 2>capacity to stop the flow of these precursor chemicals. President

0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:30.160
<v Speaker 2>Biden made this a top priority. Over the last year

0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:32.360
<v Speaker 2>and a half of the administration were able to convince

0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:39.520
<v Speaker 2>the government of China to arrest fabricators of these precursor chemicals,

0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:42.400
<v Speaker 2>to shut down online platforms. We began to expand our

0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:46.400
<v Speaker 2>law enforcement cooperation, and I think the Trump administration has

0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:49.520
<v Speaker 2>accepted that and now try to take it further. And

0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:53.040
<v Speaker 2>I think their right to do that. You know that

0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:56.640
<v Speaker 2>the thirty percent tariffs on China right now as it

0:14:56.840 --> 0:15:00.840
<v Speaker 2>was of May fourteenth, ten percent of the recarp tariffs

0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:04.400
<v Speaker 2>that are placed on every country, twenty percent are for feentanyl,

0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:06.360
<v Speaker 2>And I think that is a good reminder of the

0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:08.960
<v Speaker 2>Chinese there's going to be a price to pay if

0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:11.640
<v Speaker 2>they don't cooperate with the United States on this major

0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:12.960
<v Speaker 2>health crisis that we're facing.

0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:15.280
<v Speaker 3>So I think it's a major priority for President Trump.

0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:18.120
<v Speaker 1>The US is going to have a new ambassador in

0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:20.400
<v Speaker 1>Beijing soon, David Perdue has been confirmed.

0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:21.880
<v Speaker 3>I wonder if.

0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:24.680
<v Speaker 1>You've spoken with him, exchanged messages with him, and what

0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:28.200
<v Speaker 1>counsel you would give him about the role itself and

0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:32.200
<v Speaker 1>how you found the ways in which you found you

0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:33.760
<v Speaker 1>could be the most successful successful.

0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:38.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, I have spoken with him, and I told him,

0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:42.080
<v Speaker 2>and I said publicly actually on American and social media

0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:45.920
<v Speaker 2>on x that I congratulated him on his appointment, that

0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:47.960
<v Speaker 2>I'd help him in any way I could, and I

0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:50.680
<v Speaker 2>wish him the best of success because we have so

0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:54.920
<v Speaker 2>much writing on this policy with China that we've got

0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:57.800
<v Speaker 2>to be successful, and I'm rooting for his success. I

0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:01.320
<v Speaker 2>think he's very well placed to be. He worked in

0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:04.560
<v Speaker 2>business in Hong Kong and Singapore. He's been to China

0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:06.680
<v Speaker 2>as a member of the Senate. He was on Foreign

0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:10.520
<v Speaker 2>Relations and Armed Services committees, which are the two relevant committees,

0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:13.960
<v Speaker 2>two of them for China, and has a clear sense

0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:16.920
<v Speaker 2>of what he wants to do. So he's going to

0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:19.320
<v Speaker 2>go out very soon and he's going to take the

0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:23.359
<v Speaker 2>reins of the embassy that I left in mid January,

0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:24.760
<v Speaker 2>and I do wish him well.

0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:28.000
<v Speaker 3>It's a tough job. I found out. It's not for

0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:28.760
<v Speaker 3>the feint of heart.

0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:34.200
<v Speaker 2>We have with China the most competitive relationship of any

0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:36.520
<v Speaker 2>country in the world, if you think about it in quadrants.

0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:41.520
<v Speaker 2>China's our leading competitor for military influence and military power

0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:45.040
<v Speaker 2>in the Indo Pacific, our leading competitor on the major

0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:50.200
<v Speaker 2>technologies AI, biotech, quantum computing that will form the basis

0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:53.440
<v Speaker 2>of the future of the global economy. Our third largest

0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:56.360
<v Speaker 2>trade partner with which we have a very problematic trade

0:16:56.400 --> 0:16:59.520
<v Speaker 2>and teriff relationship. And obviously, and maybe this is the

0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:03.040
<v Speaker 2>most important part of it, we believe in human freedom

0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:06.320
<v Speaker 2>and human rights, and the Chinese government does not practice that.

0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:08.879
<v Speaker 2>There are major violators of the human rights of their

0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:12.520
<v Speaker 2>own people, and so there's so much writing on this relationship,

0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:15.479
<v Speaker 2>and the American ambassador has to be the point person

0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:19.360
<v Speaker 2>in competing with China and helping to strengthen the American

0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:22.000
<v Speaker 2>position on those issues. But at the same time, and

0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:26.560
<v Speaker 2>this makes it so complicated, David, is that China's our

0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:30.280
<v Speaker 2>largest and strongest competitor, but there are certain issues where

0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:33.399
<v Speaker 2>China is one of our most important partners. We're the

0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:36.040
<v Speaker 2>two stewards of the global economy. We're seeing that play

0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:38.920
<v Speaker 2>out right now in the tariff issue. On climate change,

0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:42.400
<v Speaker 2>we're the two leading emitters of carbon and so President

0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:45.399
<v Speaker 2>Biden felt very important to work with China. If we

0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:47.640
<v Speaker 2>want to do anything about fentanyl, we've got to work

0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:51.200
<v Speaker 2>with China to make that happen. So I always thought

0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:53.840
<v Speaker 2>it was it wasn't a fifty to fifty balance. I

0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:56.439
<v Speaker 2>actually thought I spent about eighty percent of my time

0:17:56.840 --> 0:18:00.240
<v Speaker 2>on the competitive edge with China about twenty percent non

0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:02.080
<v Speaker 2>cooperative matters.

0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:03.920
<v Speaker 3>And that I thought was the right ratio.

0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:07.200
<v Speaker 2>But that makes for a very complicated relationship where you've

0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:12.080
<v Speaker 2>got to both defend and push and resist on one hand,

0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:14.199
<v Speaker 2>and then you've got to stretch out your hand to

0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:16.880
<v Speaker 2>work with them and shake their hand on the other

0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:21.639
<v Speaker 2>that's the reality of being the American ambassador to China.

0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:25.959
<v Speaker 2>So I wish now Ambassador Purdue former Senator David Perdue.

0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:27.840
<v Speaker 3>Well, I think he's a very good man for this job.

0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:30.160
<v Speaker 1>Wrapping up before I kind of pull back and ask

0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:33.960
<v Speaker 1>you some broader questions, I wonder how you felt about

0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:36.160
<v Speaker 1>the relationship between the US and China when you left.

0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:39.120
<v Speaker 1>And I mean nothing by this, but do you ever

0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:41.840
<v Speaker 1>think that the work that you've done has been squandered

0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:43.760
<v Speaker 1>or is being squandered as a result of what's happened

0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:45.320
<v Speaker 1>over the last few months.

0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:50.800
<v Speaker 2>Well, I arrived in China, was sworn in in twenty

0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:55.679
<v Speaker 2>twenty one, and arrived a couple months later hawkish about

0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:58.679
<v Speaker 2>the relationship on national security grounds because China is this

0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:04.520
<v Speaker 2>very competitor impinging on a lot of American interests in

0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:08.440
<v Speaker 2>the Indo Pacific. And I think I left China more hawkish.

0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:08.680
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:19:08.680 --> 0:19:11.840
<v Speaker 2>I saw the reality of the relationship and the cynical

0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:15.880
<v Speaker 2>nature of the government of China, and of the duplicity

0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:19.720
<v Speaker 2>on some issues of the government of China, the fact

0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:22.480
<v Speaker 2>that we would make an agreement and then it wasn't honored,

0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:25.480
<v Speaker 2>and that was very much true of the Trump Phase

0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:29.120
<v Speaker 2>one teriff Agreement of twenty twenty, which we inherited, China

0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:36.080
<v Speaker 2>was obligated to spend several hundred billion dollars in purchases

0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:39.119
<v Speaker 2>of American agricultural products. Didn't get close to that. I

0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:42.159
<v Speaker 2>monitored that very carefully when I was ambassador. So I

0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:45.560
<v Speaker 2>think this is a long term structural rivalry. We're the

0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:51.320
<v Speaker 2>two strongest economies, the two strongest militaries, were the two

0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:54.600
<v Speaker 2>countries with the greatest global reach. We're competing for global power.

0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:57.960
<v Speaker 2>I don't think that will change no matter who's president,

0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:01.080
<v Speaker 2>and so we've got to steal our else for the

0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:05.080
<v Speaker 2>next decade or two to a historic competition with China,

0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:09.320
<v Speaker 2>and China right now is stronger than any adversary of

0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:11.480
<v Speaker 2>the United States has ever faced in the history of

0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:15.400
<v Speaker 2>the United States, going back to the Revolutionary War, including

0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:18.680
<v Speaker 2>the First and Second World Wars, including the Cold War.

0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:20.520
<v Speaker 3>The Soviet Union in.

0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:24.320
<v Speaker 2>Its heyday was not as strong as China is today.

0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:28.000
<v Speaker 2>And so we've got to face that competition. But here's

0:20:28.040 --> 0:20:30.520
<v Speaker 2>the catch. We've got to do it in such a

0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:33.440
<v Speaker 2>way that we don't end up in a war, because

0:20:33.480 --> 0:20:36.040
<v Speaker 2>a war would be catastrophic for the world and for

0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:39.240
<v Speaker 2>both countries. Obviously, given the power of both of our countries,

0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:43.600
<v Speaker 2>that makes for an enormously complicated relationship. And there's no

0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:47.720
<v Speaker 2>other alternative but to be engaged with the Chinese leadership,

0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:50.920
<v Speaker 2>to talk to them, as Secretary Vessent did this past

0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:54.680
<v Speaker 2>week on the teriff issue, but on a thousand other fronts.

0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:58.440
<v Speaker 2>Be engaging them and talking to them so you can compete.

0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:02.080
<v Speaker 2>We can cooperate where we can, but we avoid a

0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:05.560
<v Speaker 2>conflict which in the future would be an absolute catastrophe.

0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:09.480
<v Speaker 2>That makes for a very difficult and complex job.

0:21:10.440 --> 0:21:13.240
<v Speaker 1>I want to ask you how international fears have changed.

0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:16.800
<v Speaker 1>And I've been traveling in recent months. I was in

0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:19.240
<v Speaker 1>Brazil for the G twenty and kind of noticed in

0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:24.480
<v Speaker 1>real time the way that long standing relationships were changing physically.

0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:26.840
<v Speaker 1>Different countries were meeting with other countries in the way.

0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:27.879
<v Speaker 3>They might not a before.

0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:31.520
<v Speaker 1>I covered the election in Canada, and of course before

0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:35.360
<v Speaker 1>Mark Karney won that election, he reached out to kind

0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:39.240
<v Speaker 1>of solidify or re establish relationships that had with other

0:21:39.320 --> 0:21:43.399
<v Speaker 1>allies besides the United States. There seems to be a

0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:47.000
<v Speaker 1>message from this administration Washington that there can be bombast

0:21:47.040 --> 0:21:51.560
<v Speaker 1>and heated rhetoric radically increased tariffs, but then you can

0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:53.760
<v Speaker 1>flip the switch back and things can go back to normal.

0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:57.400
<v Speaker 1>And drawing on your experience as a diplomat for many decades,

0:21:57.640 --> 0:21:59.960
<v Speaker 1>do you think that that's folly or that that's act.

0:22:00.760 --> 0:22:02.960
<v Speaker 1>There will be no damage done and things can go

0:22:03.080 --> 0:22:04.600
<v Speaker 1>back to the way they were. When it comes to

0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:07.040
<v Speaker 1>a relationship that the US has with its allies.

0:22:07.400 --> 0:22:10.040
<v Speaker 2>I think we're at a moment of great transformation in

0:22:10.080 --> 0:22:14.800
<v Speaker 2>the global power picture were alliance is shifting very rapidly.

0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:19.520
<v Speaker 2>You see that China and Russia, in Iran and North

0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:22.680
<v Speaker 2>Korea and Venezuela and Nicaragua are kind of all working

0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:27.680
<v Speaker 2>together authoritarian dictatorships, and they're working together to try to

0:22:27.720 --> 0:22:30.560
<v Speaker 2>cut down the power of the United States, reduce it

0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:34.280
<v Speaker 2>in the world, and of our democratic allies. And I

0:22:34.359 --> 0:22:38.240
<v Speaker 2>always felt working for President Biden, one of our strongest

0:22:38.240 --> 0:22:42.120
<v Speaker 2>suits is that we have reinforced our alliances, our alliance

0:22:42.160 --> 0:22:45.919
<v Speaker 2>with NATO and the European Union countries, our alliances with

0:22:46.040 --> 0:22:50.280
<v Speaker 2>Japan and South Korea and the Philippines and Thailand and Australia,

0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:53.919
<v Speaker 2>five military alliances that are the bedrock of our power.

0:22:54.560 --> 0:22:56.240
<v Speaker 3>And as I left China.

0:22:56.840 --> 0:22:59.040
<v Speaker 2>One of the lessons that was very clear in my

0:22:59.160 --> 0:23:02.600
<v Speaker 2>mind is that in this day and age, despite the

0:23:02.640 --> 0:23:04.840
<v Speaker 2>fact that we are still the strongest power in the world,

0:23:05.000 --> 0:23:07.359
<v Speaker 2>you do need friends and allies in the world, and

0:23:07.400 --> 0:23:11.919
<v Speaker 2>that we are so much stronger politically, diplomatically, militarily and

0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:16.199
<v Speaker 2>economically if we think about working closely with allies. And

0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:18.720
<v Speaker 2>I do think that's the greatest mistake that President Trump

0:23:18.720 --> 0:23:22.560
<v Speaker 2>has made in his first four months in office.

0:23:23.080 --> 0:23:23.760
<v Speaker 3>What has he done.

0:23:24.680 --> 0:23:28.080
<v Speaker 2>He suggested that Canada repeatedly should be the fifty first

0:23:28.080 --> 0:23:30.400
<v Speaker 2>state of the United States, and you can see how

0:23:30.520 --> 0:23:35.680
<v Speaker 2>Canada and Canadians have reacted to that made He's been

0:23:35.720 --> 0:23:40.239
<v Speaker 2>heavily critical of Denmark for its two century rule in

0:23:40.320 --> 0:23:44.359
<v Speaker 2>Greenland in an attempt to convince the Danes to hand

0:23:44.400 --> 0:23:46.840
<v Speaker 2>over Greenland, and the Greenlarners have a lot to say

0:23:46.840 --> 0:23:49.800
<v Speaker 2>about this and are resistant to the United States.

0:23:50.000 --> 0:23:51.800
<v Speaker 3>Here are two NATO allies.

0:23:51.880 --> 0:23:55.040
<v Speaker 2>That are among the strongest and most faithful allies the

0:23:55.160 --> 0:23:58.399
<v Speaker 2>United States has had, and yet he has driven them away.

0:23:58.960 --> 0:24:02.160
<v Speaker 2>And at the same time, the trade war. If Donald

0:24:02.200 --> 0:24:07.560
<v Speaker 2>Trump had faced China down but had not placed high

0:24:07.720 --> 0:24:12.640
<v Speaker 2>tariffs on Japan South Korea, the European Union, Canada, and Mexico.

0:24:13.240 --> 0:24:16.240
<v Speaker 2>All those countries would have been on our side.

0:24:16.080 --> 0:24:20.000
<v Speaker 3>Of the table have the same trade and tariff.

0:24:19.640 --> 0:24:23.320
<v Speaker 2>Problems with China that we do, but they weren't compelled,

0:24:23.440 --> 0:24:27.240
<v Speaker 2>they weren't interested in doing that once they were placed

0:24:27.520 --> 0:24:30.160
<v Speaker 2>under the same tariff regime that China was placed under.

0:24:30.560 --> 0:24:34.639
<v Speaker 2>And so I fear that the administration really has a

0:24:34.680 --> 0:24:35.359
<v Speaker 2>blind spot.

0:24:35.680 --> 0:24:37.679
<v Speaker 3>They think the United States can go it alone in

0:24:37.680 --> 0:24:40.040
<v Speaker 3>the world. We can't. We need other.

0:24:39.920 --> 0:24:43.960
<v Speaker 2>Allies to support our power across every dimension of power.

0:24:44.480 --> 0:24:48.240
<v Speaker 2>I started as an intern in nineteen eighty with the

0:24:48.280 --> 0:24:50.680
<v Speaker 2>State Department, for That's how old I am forty five

0:24:50.760 --> 0:24:55.119
<v Speaker 2>years ago this summer. And that's probably the fundamental lesson

0:24:55.119 --> 0:24:58.320
<v Speaker 2>I learned when I was ambassador at NATO, when I

0:24:58.520 --> 0:25:04.000
<v Speaker 2>was under secretarist for Condoleeza Rice, is that despite our

0:25:04.240 --> 0:25:07.080
<v Speaker 2>enormous power, and I'm proud of that and want us

0:25:07.119 --> 0:25:09.880
<v Speaker 2>to build our power base, we need friends and allies

0:25:09.920 --> 0:25:12.960
<v Speaker 2>in the world. And so that's an own goal by

0:25:12.960 --> 0:25:15.880
<v Speaker 2>the Trump administration. It's one that they've got to reverse

0:25:15.960 --> 0:25:18.720
<v Speaker 2>if they hope to be effective, because the Chinese are

0:25:18.840 --> 0:25:21.960
<v Speaker 2>forming a block, and that block with Russia run in

0:25:22.000 --> 0:25:24.760
<v Speaker 2>North Korea is a strong block. You need something to

0:25:24.840 --> 0:25:27.399
<v Speaker 2>counter it. It's called NATO, and it is called the

0:25:27.440 --> 0:25:28.440
<v Speaker 2>East Asian Allies.

0:25:29.480 --> 0:25:33.359
<v Speaker 1>We talk a lot in business and economics about American exceptionalism.

0:25:33.560 --> 0:25:35.639
<v Speaker 1>I know that that's a phrase that's used in international

0:25:35.760 --> 0:25:38.239
<v Speaker 1>fairs as well. And there is the sphere in some

0:25:38.320 --> 0:25:41.720
<v Speaker 1>corners that it's waning where it could go away.

0:25:42.400 --> 0:25:44.000
<v Speaker 3>Is that a real fear that you have as well?

0:25:44.080 --> 0:25:46.000
<v Speaker 1>Kind of picking up what we were talking about about

0:25:46.000 --> 0:25:49.439
<v Speaker 1>the relationship with allies alienating allies. Do you worry that

0:25:49.480 --> 0:25:52.200
<v Speaker 1>the uniqueness of the United States is in jeopardy?

0:25:52.680 --> 0:25:57.040
<v Speaker 2>America is an exceptional country. It's exceptional because of the

0:25:57.040 --> 0:26:01.879
<v Speaker 2>way we've acted around the world. We've built ourselves around

0:26:01.920 --> 0:26:06.320
<v Speaker 2>the world. We're the country that promised free trade and

0:26:06.400 --> 0:26:08.720
<v Speaker 2>fair trade with the rest of the world, not high

0:26:08.800 --> 0:26:13.240
<v Speaker 2>protectionist barriers. We're the country that created NATO and created

0:26:13.240 --> 0:26:16.240
<v Speaker 2>our East Asian alliances that are so important to American

0:26:16.320 --> 0:26:18.880
<v Speaker 2>power in the world. But now we are letting those

0:26:18.920 --> 0:26:22.399
<v Speaker 2>alliances atrophy because we're not interested in leading some of

0:26:22.400 --> 0:26:27.160
<v Speaker 2>them anymore. And at home, of course, we're the epler

0:26:27.200 --> 0:26:31.679
<v Speaker 2>of Bazunim country. Every single American has an immigrant story.

0:26:32.440 --> 0:26:35.240
<v Speaker 2>My story is two of my grandparents immigrants from Ireland,

0:26:35.280 --> 0:26:38.440
<v Speaker 2>my dad's parents, and that story has been replicated a

0:26:38.560 --> 0:26:42.960
<v Speaker 2>million times over in our society. I'm against illegal immigration

0:26:43.000 --> 0:26:45.120
<v Speaker 2>in the United States. We have to protect our borders,

0:26:45.400 --> 0:26:48.720
<v Speaker 2>but we have to keep our door open to legal immigration,

0:26:49.040 --> 0:26:52.680
<v Speaker 2>particularly young people who want to be business small business owners,

0:26:53.040 --> 0:26:55.080
<v Speaker 2>who want to go to our universities. And we have

0:26:55.160 --> 0:26:58.920
<v Speaker 2>to keep our universities open to foreign students. But look

0:26:58.960 --> 0:27:02.080
<v Speaker 2>at the climate of fear produced by this administration. The

0:27:02.119 --> 0:27:06.960
<v Speaker 2>Trump administration on university campuses foreign students who worry about

0:27:07.000 --> 0:27:09.199
<v Speaker 2>being expelled from the country before they can take a

0:27:09.240 --> 0:27:13.560
<v Speaker 2>final exam. People who are in this country legally as

0:27:13.600 --> 0:27:18.400
<v Speaker 2>Green card holders, and yet they're somehow rounded up and deported.

0:27:19.040 --> 0:27:22.360
<v Speaker 2>This is the lifeblood of America. The Statue of Liberty

0:27:22.800 --> 0:27:25.199
<v Speaker 2>is one of our most famous symbols for one reason.

0:27:25.720 --> 0:27:27.960
<v Speaker 2>You know, we welcome people from around the world, and

0:27:28.000 --> 0:27:31.240
<v Speaker 2>they've made us stronger in waves of immigration. And I

0:27:31.280 --> 0:27:34.960
<v Speaker 2>think even in political science great power terms, we are

0:27:35.000 --> 0:27:38.679
<v Speaker 2>the second youngest demographically of all the great powers in

0:27:38.680 --> 0:27:41.160
<v Speaker 2>the world. India is the youngest, but only because of immigration.

0:27:41.240 --> 0:27:44.360
<v Speaker 2>Our birth rate is not much higher than China and Japan,

0:27:44.960 --> 0:27:49.080
<v Speaker 2>South Korea, Europe, But it's higher because of immigration. I

0:27:49.119 --> 0:27:53.800
<v Speaker 2>see that this university, what immigrants and what are immigrant

0:27:53.800 --> 0:27:57.919
<v Speaker 2>students and refugee students contribute to this university. And I

0:27:57.960 --> 0:28:02.520
<v Speaker 2>really worry about a closed America, denying and shutting off

0:28:02.560 --> 0:28:05.360
<v Speaker 2>what has made us great. One of the primary elements

0:28:05.359 --> 0:28:08.880
<v Speaker 2>that's made America great is that. So there's so much

0:28:09.080 --> 0:28:13.040
<v Speaker 2>that can be done to unravel and weaken a great

0:28:13.080 --> 0:28:13.680
<v Speaker 2>power like.

0:28:13.640 --> 0:28:14.399
<v Speaker 3>The United States.

0:28:14.400 --> 0:28:17.440
<v Speaker 2>And we've got to reinforce some of these better angels,

0:28:17.320 --> 0:28:20.359
<v Speaker 2>as Lincoln put it, call on the better angels of

0:28:20.400 --> 0:28:22.800
<v Speaker 2>our nature to remember what made America great?

0:28:23.760 --> 0:28:26.840
<v Speaker 1>Can you recognize the State Department today? You can spend

0:28:27.080 --> 0:28:32.000
<v Speaker 1>forty five years in government service. Is it recognizable to

0:28:32.040 --> 0:28:34.840
<v Speaker 1>you given the cuts that have taken place, the priorities

0:28:34.840 --> 0:28:38.160
<v Speaker 1>of it. How different is it from the place that

0:28:38.200 --> 0:28:39.760
<v Speaker 1>you first went to forty five years ago?

0:28:40.080 --> 0:28:41.280
<v Speaker 3>David, I answer it this way.

0:28:41.680 --> 0:28:43.880
<v Speaker 2>I spent a lifetime in government at the State Department

0:28:43.920 --> 0:28:47.840
<v Speaker 2>in White House, serving in Washington and overseas. Every government

0:28:47.880 --> 0:28:51.600
<v Speaker 2>agency can be subject and should be subject to reform.

0:28:52.200 --> 0:28:57.280
<v Speaker 2>There is waste, a fraud, and abuse in every government agency.

0:28:57.320 --> 0:29:02.280
<v Speaker 2>You need perpetual reform but taking a slip to USAID

0:29:02.480 --> 0:29:05.840
<v Speaker 2>and firing eight thousand people in one week, without a thought,

0:29:06.320 --> 0:29:09.280
<v Speaker 2>without a plan, without actually knowing what you're tearing down.

0:29:09.680 --> 0:29:11.040
<v Speaker 3>That was a huge mistake.

0:29:11.760 --> 0:29:18.160
<v Speaker 2>Treating nonpartisan civil servants, military officers, foreign service officers as

0:29:18.200 --> 0:29:22.280
<v Speaker 2>if they are disloyal because they work for President Biden. Well,

0:29:22.280 --> 0:29:25.440
<v Speaker 2>they also work for President Bush. They've worked people like

0:29:25.520 --> 0:29:27.920
<v Speaker 2>me work for both parties. We take a note to

0:29:27.960 --> 0:29:31.680
<v Speaker 2>the Constitution to be nonpartisan. But the Trump administration has

0:29:31.760 --> 0:29:37.200
<v Speaker 2>not appointed a single foreign service professional ambassador since it

0:29:37.240 --> 0:29:40.640
<v Speaker 2>took office. They've appointed lots of political appointees, but nobody

0:29:40.640 --> 0:29:44.160
<v Speaker 2>from the ranks of our serving career diplomats. Seventeen of

0:29:44.200 --> 0:29:48.320
<v Speaker 2>our deputy chiefs of mission are number two officials in

0:29:48.400 --> 0:29:52.480
<v Speaker 2>embassies who were assigned to these jobs and getting ready

0:29:52.520 --> 0:29:56.320
<v Speaker 2>to go have been told they're not going. And many

0:29:56.360 --> 0:29:58.600
<v Speaker 2>of them, if not all, of that group, are women

0:29:59.280 --> 0:30:03.960
<v Speaker 2>and people of color. And so there is a crisis

0:30:04.280 --> 0:30:05.920
<v Speaker 2>in our civil service right now.

0:30:06.240 --> 0:30:06.880
<v Speaker 3>And if these.

0:30:06.800 --> 0:30:09.520
<v Speaker 2>Cuts continue the way they are, and if the denigration

0:30:09.640 --> 0:30:13.520
<v Speaker 2>of our civil servants continue, you're losing You're losing a

0:30:13.600 --> 0:30:15.720
<v Speaker 2>great group of people who just want to serve the

0:30:15.760 --> 0:30:17.960
<v Speaker 2>country and want to do it in a non partisan way,

0:30:18.360 --> 0:30:21.760
<v Speaker 2>and they will be non partisan. When I left China

0:30:22.120 --> 0:30:25.400
<v Speaker 2>and held my last staff meeting, I told my staff

0:30:25.400 --> 0:30:28.520
<v Speaker 2>in our very large embassy in Beijing, you need to

0:30:28.600 --> 0:30:33.200
<v Speaker 2>work for President Trump as faithfully as you did for

0:30:33.280 --> 0:30:37.760
<v Speaker 2>President Biden. You need to work for my successor, Ambassador Purdue,

0:30:37.960 --> 0:30:41.640
<v Speaker 2>as faithfully and as hard as you did for me.

0:30:42.160 --> 0:30:45.640
<v Speaker 2>That is the Foreign Service and US government way. And

0:30:45.920 --> 0:30:50.240
<v Speaker 2>I think the Trump administration has been extraordinarily destructive of

0:30:50.320 --> 0:30:52.480
<v Speaker 2>this tradition we've had in this country now for about

0:30:52.480 --> 0:30:55.880
<v Speaker 2>one hundred and thirty years of a professional civil service,

0:30:55.960 --> 0:30:58.400
<v Speaker 2>not a political spoils system. What we had in the

0:30:58.480 --> 0:31:02.320
<v Speaker 2>nineteenth century, professional civil service that would serve the country

0:31:02.800 --> 0:31:05.680
<v Speaker 2>and serve any president that the American people elected.

0:31:05.760 --> 0:31:07.240
<v Speaker 3>That's what's at stake.

0:31:07.640 --> 0:31:09.960
<v Speaker 2>And I think when the pendulum does swing back at

0:31:09.960 --> 0:31:14.040
<v Speaker 2>some point, we're going to have to create USA, recreate USAID,

0:31:14.280 --> 0:31:18.480
<v Speaker 2>recreate the Voice of America, recreate Radio Free Asia. These

0:31:18.480 --> 0:31:22.240
<v Speaker 2>are journalists who we employ to tell the story of

0:31:22.280 --> 0:31:25.920
<v Speaker 2>the United States, in the case of China, to several

0:31:26.160 --> 0:31:31.000
<v Speaker 2>hundred million Chinese listeners of VOA and Radio Free Asia.

0:31:31.200 --> 0:31:36.000
<v Speaker 2>So enormous damage has been done by this very cynical effort.

0:31:36.760 --> 0:31:40.240
<v Speaker 3>Doge to tear down all.

0:31:40.120 --> 0:31:43.840
<v Speaker 2>These institutions and not replace them with anything of value.

0:31:44.000 --> 0:31:46.440
<v Speaker 1>But you're confident that that force of gravity will swing

0:31:46.440 --> 0:31:49.200
<v Speaker 1>the pendulum back, that we will be able to do that.

0:31:49.240 --> 0:31:50.080
<v Speaker 3>Well, I don't recreate them.

0:31:50.160 --> 0:31:52.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't think anybody can predict when reason will prevail

0:31:52.800 --> 0:31:56.320
<v Speaker 2>again and logic will prevail and sanity. But it has

0:31:56.400 --> 0:32:00.000
<v Speaker 2>to because I think future administrations, future presidents will look

0:32:00.080 --> 0:32:03.560
<v Speaker 2>around at their government and say, where are my diplomats?

0:32:04.080 --> 0:32:07.360
<v Speaker 2>Where are my aid workers? How do we run vaccine programs,

0:32:07.440 --> 0:32:10.600
<v Speaker 2>global health programs, literacy programs that we ought to be

0:32:10.680 --> 0:32:14.240
<v Speaker 2>doing around the world because of Americans are generous people.

0:32:14.640 --> 0:32:18.200
<v Speaker 3>Where are my diplomats? Why do I not have any diplomats.

0:32:18.000 --> 0:32:20.800
<v Speaker 2>With thirty or forty years of experience? Well, they were

0:32:20.800 --> 0:32:25.720
<v Speaker 2>all fired, summarily kicked out in the first couple of

0:32:25.720 --> 0:32:28.480
<v Speaker 2>weeks and months of the Trump administration. It's a true

0:32:28.600 --> 0:32:29.520
<v Speaker 2>national crisis.

0:32:30.360 --> 0:32:31.720
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to go out on a limb and imagine

0:32:31.760 --> 0:32:34.320
<v Speaker 1>You've kept in touch with folks at the embassy in Beijing,

0:32:34.360 --> 0:32:35.640
<v Speaker 1>and I think a lot of focus has been on

0:32:35.680 --> 0:32:37.840
<v Speaker 1>what these cuts have been like in Washington, d C.

0:32:38.000 --> 0:32:41.440
<v Speaker 1>But for a major embassy like that one, What have

0:32:41.520 --> 0:32:43.240
<v Speaker 1>they meant for the way that it operates.

0:32:43.600 --> 0:32:47.280
<v Speaker 2>I can't speak for my team at Embassy Mission China.

0:32:48.240 --> 0:32:52.920
<v Speaker 2>I left just before January twentieth, and our tradition is

0:32:52.960 --> 0:32:56.600
<v Speaker 2>you don't when you leave, you leave, you don't get involved.

0:32:56.760 --> 0:32:59.480
<v Speaker 2>And obviously the Trump team had to come in and

0:32:59.560 --> 0:33:02.520
<v Speaker 2>run that. So I can't speak for them, but I

0:33:02.520 --> 0:33:04.160
<v Speaker 2>can speak for a lot of people who've been laid

0:33:04.160 --> 0:33:06.720
<v Speaker 2>off in Washington, and a lot of people who are

0:33:06.720 --> 0:33:10.080
<v Speaker 2>thinking now seriously of leaving. These are people whose lifelong

0:33:10.160 --> 0:33:13.760
<v Speaker 2>ambition was to work for the Treasury Apartment or the Pentagon,

0:33:13.920 --> 0:33:16.800
<v Speaker 2>or the State Department or the Commist Department. They just

0:33:16.880 --> 0:33:19.600
<v Speaker 2>wanted to serve our country. But they're being treated like

0:33:19.640 --> 0:33:24.440
<v Speaker 2>second class citizens, and they're facing massive layoffs of the

0:33:24.480 --> 0:33:27.120
<v Speaker 2>type that we've never seen before in the history of

0:33:27.200 --> 0:33:28.000
<v Speaker 2>the United States.

0:33:28.040 --> 0:33:28.960
<v Speaker 3>Nothing like this.

0:33:29.600 --> 0:33:34.040
<v Speaker 2>The wholesale destruction of federal government agencies in some cases,

0:33:34.680 --> 0:33:39.360
<v Speaker 2>and the almost irrational downsizing of the numbers of others,

0:33:39.600 --> 0:33:42.320
<v Speaker 2>nothing like this has ever happened before in the history

0:33:42.320 --> 0:33:44.680
<v Speaker 2>of the country. Because it's not smart and it's going

0:33:44.760 --> 0:33:48.200
<v Speaker 2>to weaken US. I can tell you who's really happy

0:33:48.200 --> 0:33:51.840
<v Speaker 2>about this the government in China. They are competing with

0:33:51.920 --> 0:33:55.560
<v Speaker 2>US diplomatically for how many embassies and consulates east of

0:33:55.640 --> 0:33:58.720
<v Speaker 2>US have. They are hiring new diplomats at a pace

0:33:58.760 --> 0:34:02.120
<v Speaker 2>that we can't manage, and that matters around the world.

0:34:02.200 --> 0:34:04.479
<v Speaker 2>It matters in our ability to be effective as we

0:34:04.520 --> 0:34:06.760
<v Speaker 2>compete with them in every part of the world.

0:34:07.720 --> 0:34:10.320
<v Speaker 1>I'd like to close by asking you what you're telling

0:34:10.600 --> 0:34:14.080
<v Speaker 1>students here who are here at the Kennedy School here

0:34:14.080 --> 0:34:17.560
<v Speaker 1>at Harvard to learn from your experience, to learn an

0:34:17.640 --> 0:34:21.160
<v Speaker 1>art of diplomacy that has been practiced and perfected for

0:34:21.239 --> 0:34:26.239
<v Speaker 1>many decades. There must be many students here wondering if

0:34:26.280 --> 0:34:28.080
<v Speaker 1>the path that they predicted would be there has been

0:34:28.200 --> 0:34:31.480
<v Speaker 1>foreclothes that there's no ladder the likes of what you've

0:34:31.520 --> 0:34:34.279
<v Speaker 1>described before. You could start as an intern at the

0:34:34.280 --> 0:34:36.640
<v Speaker 1>State Department and work your way up to heading the

0:34:36.719 --> 0:34:38.760
<v Speaker 1>largest mission in the US.

0:34:39.840 --> 0:34:40.640
<v Speaker 3>What do you tell them?

0:34:41.200 --> 0:34:44.359
<v Speaker 2>I'm telling students here at Harvard, but students I meet

0:34:44.400 --> 0:34:45.600
<v Speaker 2>from across the country.

0:34:46.040 --> 0:34:48.200
<v Speaker 3>Hang on, hang on to your ideals.

0:34:48.680 --> 0:34:50.959
<v Speaker 2>It's a good thing to want to spend your life

0:34:51.000 --> 0:34:54.080
<v Speaker 2>serving the United States of America, your country. It's a

0:34:54.120 --> 0:34:56.000
<v Speaker 2>good thing you want to be in the public square,

0:34:56.080 --> 0:35:00.600
<v Speaker 2>what Teddy Roosevelt called the arena of public service, and

0:35:00.640 --> 0:35:05.760
<v Speaker 2>that I'm just convinced that future presidents of either party

0:35:06.640 --> 0:35:09.000
<v Speaker 2>are going to want to rebuild our capacity to have

0:35:09.040 --> 0:35:13.000
<v Speaker 2>a fully fledged State Department and US Agency for International

0:35:13.000 --> 0:35:15.080
<v Speaker 2>Development so that we can be effective in the world

0:35:15.360 --> 0:35:20.120
<v Speaker 2>and defend ourselves and prepare yourselves, study hard, and don't

0:35:20.200 --> 0:35:23.319
<v Speaker 2>leave that dream behind of public service. Because what a

0:35:23.360 --> 0:35:26.440
<v Speaker 2>tragedy would be for our country if young people in

0:35:26.480 --> 0:35:28.320
<v Speaker 2>this country felt, well, I can't serve in the federal

0:35:28.360 --> 0:35:32.080
<v Speaker 2>government because I'm not welcome as a career official in

0:35:32.120 --> 0:35:36.520
<v Speaker 2>the federal government. We need non partisan Americans out there

0:35:36.680 --> 0:35:40.920
<v Speaker 2>representing us without any regard to party allegiance. That's what

0:35:40.960 --> 0:35:43.920
<v Speaker 2>we have in the federal government service and in the

0:35:44.000 --> 0:35:44.760
<v Speaker 2>US military.

0:35:44.920 --> 0:35:47.319
<v Speaker 3>That's the oath of office that we all take to.

0:35:47.239 --> 0:35:49.760
<v Speaker 2>Defend the constitution. It's not an oath to the president

0:35:50.800 --> 0:35:53.600
<v Speaker 2>of either party. It's an oath to the Constitution that

0:35:53.640 --> 0:35:57.680
<v Speaker 2>we will be non partisan. That's an enormous asset, and

0:35:57.760 --> 0:36:00.200
<v Speaker 2>if we let it wither away in this administration is

0:36:00.239 --> 0:36:03.000
<v Speaker 2>doing that, it's going to do enormous damage to our country.

0:36:03.680 --> 0:36:06.280
<v Speaker 3>Lastly, what is this like for you personally?

0:36:06.320 --> 0:36:09.880
<v Speaker 1>Somebody who has served for presidents from both parties in

0:36:09.920 --> 0:36:15.280
<v Speaker 1>a very non partisan way, to find yourself asking students

0:36:15.320 --> 0:36:17.760
<v Speaker 1>to hold on calling for the return of these regilations

0:36:17.800 --> 0:36:20.239
<v Speaker 1>and in so doing, I guess being seen probably by

0:36:20.239 --> 0:36:22.920
<v Speaker 1>some as acting in a partisan way. It's going against

0:36:22.920 --> 0:36:25.200
<v Speaker 1>what this administration is doing. It must be a very

0:36:25.520 --> 0:36:27.399
<v Speaker 1>foreign feeling for you to have.

0:36:28.320 --> 0:36:31.239
<v Speaker 2>Well, what I'm advocating is not partisan. I worked for

0:36:31.280 --> 0:36:37.160
<v Speaker 2>Republican presidents as well as Democratic presidents, and as a

0:36:37.200 --> 0:36:40.719
<v Speaker 2>Foreign service officer, career diplomat, my oath was to the Constitution,

0:36:40.920 --> 0:36:43.680
<v Speaker 2>it was to the country. So in advocating for a

0:36:43.760 --> 0:36:48.160
<v Speaker 2>strong diplomatic corps in the State Department, for a strong USAID,

0:36:48.400 --> 0:36:52.960
<v Speaker 2>for a strong military, I think that's patriotic. It's not partisan,

0:36:53.640 --> 0:36:56.920
<v Speaker 2>and not everything has to be about politics.

0:36:57.400 --> 0:36:59.000
<v Speaker 3>And one of the great strengths of our.

0:36:58.880 --> 0:37:02.480
<v Speaker 2>Country is a federal government workforce that is not about politics.

0:37:02.800 --> 0:37:06.399
<v Speaker 2>But they're being politicized now, they're being penalized. They're being

0:37:06.440 --> 0:37:09.120
<v Speaker 2>told that they can't be trusted because they work for

0:37:09.200 --> 0:37:12.720
<v Speaker 2>President Biden. All of my colleagues work for senior colleagues

0:37:12.800 --> 0:37:17.480
<v Speaker 2>work for President George W. Bush and his father before

0:37:17.480 --> 0:37:20.440
<v Speaker 2>it as well as President Clinton and President Obama and

0:37:20.520 --> 0:37:24.480
<v Speaker 2>President Biden, all of them work for President Trump in

0:37:24.560 --> 0:37:27.640
<v Speaker 2>his first term. There was no mass layoff then, so

0:37:27.800 --> 0:37:31.920
<v Speaker 2>why the change now. I think it's extraordinarily shortsighted for

0:37:32.000 --> 0:37:34.520
<v Speaker 2>the United States government to be heading in this direction.