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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Favorites, the podcast presented.

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Speaker 2: By About three six five. We are part of the

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Speaker 2: Action Network.

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Speaker 1: I am Chad Milman, Chief Content Officer of the Action Network.

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Speaker 1: Another great episode with my co host, my companion Mike

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Speaker 1: and padre my BFF professional better Simon Hunter l OsO.

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Speaker 3: I'm in, how are we doing, Chad.

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Speaker 1: Brother like it's June and as soon as June hit

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Speaker 1: and the calendar turned, the baseball betting scandals exploded. I

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Speaker 1: think there's some symmetry here. Earlier in the season, when

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Speaker 1: the Shohei Otani and Ipe his translator scandal broke, we

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Speaker 1: had on Keith O'Briant talking about his biography of Charlie Hussel.

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Speaker 1: We are privileged to have another author talking about another

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Speaker 1: baseball legend, and this author also happens to have been

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Speaker 1: covering Major League Baseball for quite a while.

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Speaker 2: So we're going to.

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Speaker 1: Dig into the latest scandals that are breaking as well

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Speaker 1: as his book. The Dodgers are in first place in

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Speaker 1: the NLS. They are actually doing it without Clayton Kershaw,

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Speaker 1: who will make his return from shoulder surgery in the

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Speaker 1: coming weeks. Joining us to discuss the baseball season, the

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Speaker 1: recent scandals three time Cy Young Award winner, Surefire Hall

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Speaker 1: of Famer Clayton Kershaw is Andy McCullough, Senior writer for

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Speaker 1: The Athletic, author of the new biography The Last of

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Speaker 1: His Kind Clayton Kershaw and The Burden of Greatness. Andy,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the show Man. You have chosen a week

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Speaker 1: needs to come on a betting podcast.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, I will not be offering any parlays or

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Speaker 4: anything besides just a piece of advice to anyone who's

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Speaker 4: playing professional baseball. Don't bet on baseball rule twenty one.

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Speaker 4: Just don't don't do it.

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Speaker 3: It's bad.

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Speaker 1: You think that maybe they would have picked up on

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Speaker 1: that by now, And I do want to get into

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Speaker 1: it like it's a serious topic and I know I

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Speaker 1: have opinions on it. I'm sure Simon has opinions on it.

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Speaker 1: I know you'll have opinions on it. As a reminder,

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Speaker 1: the Favorite podcast is presented by Bet three six five.

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Speaker 2: Bet three six.

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Speaker 1: Five doesn't do ordinary. That's why you get more boosts

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Speaker 1: it's never ordinary at bet three six five. Must be

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Speaker 1: twenty one or older and present in Arizona, Colorado, Indie, Iowa, Louisiana,

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Speaker 1: North Carolina, New Jersey, Ohio, Virginia, or eighteen and older

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Speaker 1: in Kentucky. Gambling problem called one eight hundred gambler or

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Speaker 1: one eight hundred bets off in Iowa.

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Speaker 2: Terms.

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Speaker 1: Condition and restrictions apply and reminder catch every episode of

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Speaker 1: the Favorites on YouTube but live. For those enjoying on YouTube,

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Speaker 1: don't forget to give us a like and subscribe to

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Speaker 1: the Action Network YouTube page.

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Speaker 2: All right, we say it as a.

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Speaker 1: Joke, Andy, and like, we're a betting podcast. So Simon,

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Speaker 1: who's a professional better and myself has been in the

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Speaker 1: sports betting media business for a generation. I'm gonna have

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Speaker 1: strong opinions about this. I would like your take, as

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Speaker 1: a veteran sports writer who has been covering baseball at

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Speaker 1: very high levels for a long time, how complicit is

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Speaker 1: the legalization of betting In the recent spate of betting

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Speaker 1: scandals in sports, specifically in baseball.

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Speaker 4: Sure, I mean I think like when when you yeah,

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Speaker 4: I mean I think there's no other way to there's

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Speaker 4: no way to deny it. Right. The proliferation and access

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Speaker 4: to sports betting makes it so much easier for players

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Speaker 4: to do this. You know, like a generation ago, you

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Speaker 4: had to know someone who could get a bet down

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Speaker 4: for you. You know, you had to either or be

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Speaker 4: in a place, you know, physical location where you can

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Speaker 4: get a bet down, And now you can just do

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Speaker 4: it on your phone if you're in the majority of states,

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Speaker 4: and so the access to betting obviously makes it, you know,

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Speaker 4: more likely to happen. I think the you know, the

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Speaker 4: wash of sort of ads and partnerships at the various leagues,

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Speaker 4: including Major League Baseball, taken on with betting companies. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: that also makes it more ubiquitous. At the same time,

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Speaker 4: like it's kind of cut and dried in baseball, like

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Speaker 4: it's the one thing you can't do. It's hammered into

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Speaker 4: every player at the you know, the start of every

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Speaker 4: spring in you know, both English and in Spanish, in

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Speaker 4: meetings you know from the league where they explained how

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Speaker 4: what rule twenty one is it's a rule designed to

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Speaker 4: protect the integrity of the sport. And so yeah, I

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Speaker 4: mean a lot of the early discourse has been just

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Speaker 4: about how small some of these sums were, right, like

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Speaker 4: guys betting handfuls of dollars and like clearly not you know,

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Speaker 4: clearly just like bored, it seems like, and just firing

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Speaker 4: you know, on the on their website, you know, on

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Speaker 4: the sites, just to kill some time. And so the

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Speaker 4: the like the danger of it seems limited. At the

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Speaker 4: same time, it's like the rules pretty cut and dry.

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Speaker 4: There's not a lot of ambiguity to it. You can't

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Speaker 4: bet on baseball if you want to play or work

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Speaker 4: in baseball, you just can't do it. It's part of

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Speaker 4: the privilege of being part of the league. So while

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Speaker 4: I think, you know, you could say, does the league

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Speaker 4: have some responsibility in this, like sure, yeah, but they're

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Speaker 4: also not going to turn down money. That's you know,

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Speaker 4: not how their business is set up. And you would

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Speaker 4: think that the players involved would have to take some

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Speaker 4: personal responsibility, even if it was for you know, like

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Speaker 4: very small lapses. It's a you know, it's kind of

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Speaker 4: a The reason it's such like a red line is

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Speaker 4: because it you know, you don't want the integrity of

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Speaker 4: the game to be at risk. If the integrity of

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Speaker 4: the game is at risk, the entire enterprise can collapse. Right. Like,

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Speaker 4: the whole point is that it's an honest competition, right,

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Speaker 4: and then we watch it because it's you know, we

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Speaker 4: get entertainment. The entertainment is derived from its honesty. If

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Speaker 4: it's if there's a belief that it might be rigged

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Speaker 4: or that the players have financial motivation to you know,

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Speaker 4: do something other than try their best, the whole thing collapses.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, I mean that's kind of where I'm at

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Speaker 4: with it. Like, I think that the way that, like

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Speaker 4: the way that the sports have sort of partnered up

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Speaker 4: with casinos and you know, betting operations, like it does

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Speaker 4: lead to you know, a slippery slope as it were.

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Speaker 4: But also, like the players need to have personal responsibility

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Speaker 4: in one of the privileges of being in baseball, as

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Speaker 4: you can't bet on baseball, Simon, what do you guys think?

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Speaker 4: I'm curious?

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Speaker 1: I like Simon, everything Andy says is true. Proliferation of

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Speaker 1: the accessibility to betting makes it easier for everybody to bet.

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Speaker 1: It's also true if you are an athlete and you

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Speaker 1: make a bet, and you make a bet on your

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Speaker 1: own sport, you couldn't be dumber, and you don't deserve

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Speaker 1: to be in the league because the risk reward on

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Speaker 1: your potential as an athlete who's already in a pipeline,

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Speaker 1: whether you were a minor leaguer on the way up.

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Speaker 1: And this could be in the MLB, we saw it

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Speaker 1: with Jontay Porter. In the NBA is going to be

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Speaker 1: so much higher than anything you can make, you know,

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Speaker 1: betting twenty five fifty one hundred dollars a game, but betting.

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Speaker 2: Has been going on forever.

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Speaker 1: This was the whole reason, like it was worth covering

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Speaker 1: because just because it wasn't legal didn't mean it wasn't happening.

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Speaker 2: So why, Simon, is this happening more now?

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Speaker 3: I would say, it's just bringing to light what the

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Speaker 3: sad truth is of a lot of gambling. It's an addiction, Chad,

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Speaker 3: And we can all sit here and say how dumb

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Speaker 3: the guy is, But he had a sickness. That's that's

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Speaker 3: all it could be, right, because you don't think logically,

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Speaker 3: the disease takes over and you're not thinking logically. So

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Speaker 3: I just think it's it's were at the early stations

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Speaker 3: here with the MLB, where right now, there's only one

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Speaker 3: method they can go about it. Right, They're not going

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Speaker 3: to treat it as a disease. They're going to treat

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Speaker 3: it as you're out of the league. We're here, We're

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Speaker 3: not here to help you cure your disease. We're not

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Speaker 3: here to treat you with kid gloves. You're you're out, like,

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Speaker 3: we're not messing around here, because what we're talking about here,

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Speaker 3: it's the integrity of the league. In the NFL, they've

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Speaker 3: gone about a little different right where these guys who

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Speaker 3: they've caught, they might give him a year suspension, right,

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Speaker 3: don't let them back. But they know it's like anything else,

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Speaker 3: you are out, like, we're not going to take these risks.

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Speaker 3: And we luckily never had, you know, we never had

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Speaker 3: the Joe Burrow Patrick Mahomes scandal like we did with Otani.

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Speaker 3: And you know, the tiny thing. They wanted to sweep

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Speaker 3: that under the rug and keep it moving as quickly

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Speaker 3: as they could because they cannot lifetime dan Otani even

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Speaker 3: if you did get proven right, the whole thing is

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Speaker 3: so messy. But I viewed as the MLB is doing

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Speaker 3: their best to try to control something that it's just

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Speaker 3: so new to them, right, they don't know to handle

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Speaker 3: these guys that have these addiction problems and diseases. You know,

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Speaker 3: we if a coach gets caught, chat if an umpire

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Speaker 3: for the first basement coach, if a star player gets

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Speaker 3: caught this year, it's just so much adding on to

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Speaker 3: the MLB right now. So this is a hot topic

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Speaker 3: that they wanted to keep it. They wanted it to

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Speaker 3: go away, and these these things keep popping up, Chad.

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Speaker 3: So it's not going to go away for the MLB. Right,

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Speaker 3: It's like clear there's an issue right now, and it's

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Speaker 3: tough where it's like, I mean, how many people are

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Speaker 3: within these teams, right, you have the minor league, All

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Speaker 3: these guys are all connected to these teams. It's just

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Speaker 3: such a huge amount of people to pull end. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: like I said from the top, it's an addiction. That's

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Speaker 3: the sad, the sad truth of it. So these guys,

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Speaker 3: I wish I could say they be like they're such idiots,

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Speaker 3: but it's like they clearly just aren't thinking, like the

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Speaker 3: addiction takes over and they're just not processed. Because you're right, Chad,

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Speaker 3: if you want your girlfriend and make bets for you.

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Speaker 3: They're going to catch you somehow through your girlfriend. You're

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Speaker 3: not smarter than these sportsbooks people, Like, That's what I

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Speaker 3: can't get through my head chat. It's just these people

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Speaker 3: think they're so smart. It's like, you're not smarter than

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Speaker 3: a billion dollar business. It's just come on. You might

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Speaker 3: get away with it for a little bit, but eventually

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Speaker 3: they'll get you, right, Guys.

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Speaker 4: If anyone I do want to say, just like, well, Simon,

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Speaker 4: I'm definitely sympathetic to the idea that it's an addiction,

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Speaker 4: right and especially clearly like in the epim is Ahura case,

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Speaker 4: like that is a person who was dealing with gambling addiction.

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Speaker 4: I think is the charming document. Yeah, like there's no

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Speaker 4: there's no like debating that. At the same time, like

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Speaker 4: you can torch your money on college basketball, you know,

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Speaker 4: like you can bet Europe in soccer, like you can.

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Speaker 4: That's what I go back to.

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Speaker 3: It's a disease because he thinks he knows. Jeff Passion

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Speaker 3: put a tweet out he only won four point five

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Speaker 3: percent of his bets. Well, we're talking about we're talking

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Speaker 3: about impossible, right, That's that's Tikipedia Marcana who was betting.

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Speaker 4: On baseball, right, and like, yeah, that is tough. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: those are two separate thing because Msahara, like there's no

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Speaker 4: evidence that he bet on baseball. He was he was

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Speaker 4: like firing on college scire like all sorts of stuff, right.

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Speaker 4: But the reason that these suspensions came down today, it's

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Speaker 4: because there's specific guys within baseball who were betting on baseball.

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Speaker 4: And yeah, four percent, that is tough, like that you

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Speaker 4: have to try it almost, I'm telling you it's almost impossible. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: but I think that was like on parlays too, which

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Speaker 4: is like, you know, that's just giving your money. So yeah,

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Speaker 4: I don't know. I mean, I think these cases are different, right,

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Speaker 4: The Marcano case is different than you know, like Jay

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Speaker 4: Groom or Andrew saw Frank who were you know doing that.

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Speaker 4: I just think I am sympathetic to the idea of

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Speaker 4: someone who's dealing with the throes of addiction. I I

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Speaker 4: do think though, that like it is an addiction that

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Speaker 4: can be channeled into other avenues like gests. I don't know,

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Speaker 4: maybe that's not sympathetic enough.

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Speaker 3: In twenty thirty years, I think will be better. I

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Speaker 3: think right now it's too early in American culture, like

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Speaker 3: in Europe, there's scandals every now and then, but nothing

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Speaker 3: like this, right. I mean literally, we've had a year

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Speaker 3: where every sport has something popping up. It's just we're

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Speaker 3: in We're the guinea pigs right now. It's the sad truth.

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Speaker 3: But like you just talked about it, the accessibility, it

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Speaker 3: is what it is, right, It's a sad times right

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Speaker 3: now for that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 1: Look a, I think anyone who listens to this podcast

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Speaker 1: would not be surprised that Simon was offering the most

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Speaker 1: empathetic view of the situation. And I also think you're

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Speaker 1: one hundred percent right Simon. Everybody in this industry right now,

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Speaker 1: for me to you, to the Action Network, to the operators,

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Speaker 1: to the leagues are going to be on the defensive

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Speaker 1: when stuff like this happens. Yep, because we have all

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Speaker 1: been advocates for the industry for a long time. We

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Speaker 1: all believe that the industry should be legal. We all

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Speaker 1: believe that there should be a clean, well lighted This

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Speaker 1: is the benefit of it being legal though, right Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we keep talking about this.

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Speaker 3: This is why it's great that it's legal, because we.

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Speaker 1: Can't This is why it's great that it's legal, right,

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Speaker 1: Like the integrity operation is so much.

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Speaker 3: Greater, it's so much stafer.

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Speaker 2: It could have been happening and we didn't know it

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Speaker 2: and it was.

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Speaker 3: That's why I try. I tell people. They just don't

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Speaker 3: get it.

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Speaker 1: And people like Andy like it'd be impossible to track

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Speaker 1: down and so you need you need to see you know,

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Speaker 1: back in the day in ninety eight, you know, the

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Speaker 1: steroids era with Mark maguire started because a very observant

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Speaker 1: reporter saw a bottle of Andrew Andrew Stein di owne

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Speaker 1: in his locker for me to see betting slips in

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Speaker 1: someone's locker in order to understand how to break this

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Speaker 1: kind of story. Now, because of the tracking, it is

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Speaker 1: more effective, but it is still putting everybody on the defensive.

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Speaker 2: Andy, I know you want to jump in.

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Speaker 4: No, No, I was just the point about the steroid

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Speaker 4: eras is is really good because I think that the

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Speaker 4: there's like a generation of baseball writers, you know, through

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Speaker 4: the nineties and two thousands who like took a lot

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Speaker 4: of criticism for sort of like sweeping it under the rug.

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Speaker 4: And if you talk to people from that generation, they're like,

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Speaker 4: we went up to the players and ask them are

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Speaker 4: you on steroids? And when they said no, you can't

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Speaker 4: just put in the newspaper that the guy's on steroids,

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Speaker 4: like you need proof, right like, and it needed to

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Speaker 4: go through like the you know, the Balco hearings and

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Speaker 4: you know, the testing error to come in. But you

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Speaker 4: couldn't just accuse people of things. And so you know,

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Speaker 4: there is like the legalization at the very least, it

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Speaker 4: does provide a level of transparency for these things that

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Speaker 4: you know, if people are using these apps or working

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Speaker 4: through these major providers, right like, there's a way to

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Speaker 4: actually bring it to light rather than just sort of

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Speaker 4: relying on, you know, stuff that you can't essentially you

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Speaker 4: can't print like you know, sort of like anonymous accusations

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Speaker 4: without like documentation backing it up.

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Speaker 1: I guess so you mentioned before the show started you

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Speaker 1: play poker, and like you clearly know the language of

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Speaker 1: betting to put it in betting terms if you had

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Speaker 1: to handicap. Do you think there is eventually a massive

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Speaker 1: betting scandal at MLB or one of the major sports

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Speaker 1: or do you think there are enough guardrails in place

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Speaker 1: and there's enough sort of collective understanding that to fuck

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Speaker 1: this up would be so monumentally horrible for everybody that

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Speaker 1: we will be limited to minor scandals with unknown players.

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Speaker 4: I mean, the best friend of the best player possibly

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Speaker 4: in the history of baseball stole sixteen million dollars from

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Speaker 4: him to fund a game addiction.

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Speaker 3: So, uh, yeah, it's there, right.

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Speaker 4: I don't know, as Tommy Lee Jones says in No

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Speaker 4: Country for old men, like if an A and M mess,

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Speaker 4: it'll do until the mess gets here. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 4: I think that it is something that how do I

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Speaker 4: how do I phrase this? I think that there was

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Speaker 4: an assumption before Alex So, I'm thirty six and i've

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Speaker 4: and I've been covering baseball for like fifteen years now,

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Speaker 4: and when I got into covering baseball, there was never

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Speaker 4: really discussion about betting, you know, on baseball or betting

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Speaker 4: on things, because it was just such a clear obvious

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Speaker 4: red line and it was also like not a ubiquitous activity.

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Speaker 4: It was just harder to do. You couldn't just pull

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Speaker 4: out your phone and do it. And so there's a

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Speaker 4: possibility that in this past, you know, ten to fifteen years,

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Speaker 4: when it seemed like the problem was sort of you know,

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Speaker 4: kind of nipped in the bud, that maybe it wasn't

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Speaker 4: as present of mind, you know, for the people who

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Speaker 4: are running baseball. And I think at this point there

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Speaker 4: needs to be uh not that they're not that they're

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Speaker 4: not doing this, it's just like it just kind of

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Speaker 4: has to be constant vigilance on it to prevent a scandal.

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Speaker 4: Where so where someone who is like, you know, it's

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Speaker 4: not just the interpreter of the best player, but potentially

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Speaker 4: you know, the best player or an All star, not

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Speaker 4: you know, a minor leaguer who's like kind of bored

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Speaker 4: on the injured list. But when there is actual real

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Speaker 4: risk of the integrity of the game of players who

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Speaker 4: involved in games, there has to be vigilance to prevent

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Speaker 4: it from happening. It just seemed it seemed like outside

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Speaker 4: the realm of likelihood because the punishment was so severe

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Speaker 4: and the upside felt so limited, and so there just

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Speaker 4: kind of needs to be a clear demarcation of like,

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Speaker 4: like I think I think that the penalties that came

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Speaker 4: down today against these you know, five guys, while they

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Speaker 4: seem pretty harsh, there they follow you know, what the

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Speaker 4: CBA has, like what the rulebook has this is you know,

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Speaker 4: the rules are like if you bet on baseball in

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Speaker 4: a game that involves your team, it's a lifetime ban.

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Speaker 4: And if you bet on base and you're not involved,

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Speaker 4: it's a year long ban. And it's like cut and dry.

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Speaker 4: You can bet fifty cents that bye bye. You know

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Speaker 4: that's it. So, you know, while these penalties are pretty harsh, like,

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Speaker 4: it does feel like a reasonable deterrent for people who

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Speaker 4: are at least like not paying attention or don't have

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Speaker 4: their you know, shit together. I guess you could.

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Speaker 2: Say now it's you're absolutely right.

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Speaker 1: Brother, my freezer is so loaded with stuff from Omaha Steaks.

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Speaker 1: I had to start giving other food away. I enjoyed

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Speaker 1: all of it. You just said you've been writing for

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Speaker 1: fifteen years covering baseball. You just wrote a big book,

375
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Speaker 1: The Last of his Kind, Clayton Kershaw, The Burden of Greatness.

376
00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:15,159
Speaker 1: I think he's the perfect guy to carry a heavy

377
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:20,480
Speaker 1: title like that. Do you enjoy covering baseball from this

378
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:25,800
Speaker 1: point of view more than digging into and having to

379
00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:29,800
Speaker 1: chase down scandals like this. Every reporter, every writer is different,

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Speaker 1: like they get into it.

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Speaker 4: For Yeah, I think variety is good. Like I had

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Speaker 4: to I had to do a lot of stuff with

383
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Speaker 4: the Misahara scandal at the beginning of the year, which

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00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,560
Speaker 4: was stressful and exciting and kind of a nice change

385
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Speaker 4: of pace. But yeah, I mean, I think the stuff

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Speaker 4: that interests me the most is like trying to understand,

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Speaker 4: you know, what makes the people tick. For lack of

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00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,320
Speaker 4: a better term. I know that's not a unique sort

389
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Speaker 4: of take, but that is kind of what animates me

390
00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,320
Speaker 4: in terms of, you know, like as a writer and reporter,

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Speaker 4: like trying to just understand, like how does a person

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Speaker 4: you know, It's like the Richard Brent Kramer thing about

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Speaker 4: the presidency, like growing up right, like he had never

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Speaker 4: met a person who thought that he could be president,

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Speaker 4: so like what does it take to be you know,

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Speaker 4: that type of person? And in Major League Baseball, like

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Speaker 4: I am basically interacting the overwhelming majority of the time

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Speaker 4: with like no people who I just have that didn't

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Speaker 4: these weren't my friends growing up, you know, like these

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00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:28,320
Speaker 4: were and by the way, I was a jock like

401
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Speaker 4: I was on the football team like three years varsity,

402
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,080
Speaker 4: no big deal, but like you know, there was not

403
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:38,320
Speaker 4: people like you know who anyway. So all this is

404
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:42,000
Speaker 4: to say is, like I have what what interests me

405
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,680
Speaker 4: about Kershaw is just trying to explain, you know, how

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Speaker 4: does a person become like this where they sort of,

407
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,840
Speaker 4: you know, treat each day with like metronomic precision. You know,

408
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Speaker 4: how do you come to be in this place where

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Speaker 4: despite all that you've achieved in baseball, you know, and

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00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,320
Speaker 4: in your life, you still hold yourself to such exceedingly

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Speaker 4: high standards. Like what is the root of that sort

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Speaker 4: of you know, personality? And so he was, you know,

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Speaker 4: that's kind of the stuff that I that I like

414
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Speaker 4: doing the most. Readers don't always respond to it because

415
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,040
Speaker 4: they like scandals or they like trade rumors and stuff

416
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,040
Speaker 4: like that, but I think it often has a more

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Speaker 4: lasting impact to be able to do stories of that type.

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Speaker 1: You just casually dropped my number one favorite nonfiction book,

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Speaker 1: Oh Time and Richard ben Kramer, and which is for

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Speaker 1: anyone who hasn't read it, now is a good time

421
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,360
Speaker 1: to read it because it's this about a thousand page

422
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Speaker 1: book in which he goes through basically writes a book

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Speaker 1: about the presidential campaigns. Yeah for I think eight different

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Speaker 1: people running for president in nineteen eighty eight, and it

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Speaker 1: captures everything from the beginning of what has become the

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Speaker 1: sensational Sex Scan.

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Speaker 2: With Gary Hurd.

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Speaker 1: Joe Biden is featured prominently obviously George H. W. Bush,

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Speaker 1: Michael Dukakis, like, those are the final two.

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Speaker 2: Guys, brilliant did get part?

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00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 1: If you walk away thinking, God, it would have been

432
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,679
Speaker 1: great if he was president, like like, it's fascinating. It

433
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 1: is a fascinating, fascinating book, but we digress. Also a

434
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 1: fascinating book, your book about Clayton Kershaw. There are two

435
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 1: anecdotes that were in the excerpt in The New York

436
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:33,680
Speaker 1: Times that I thought perfectly captured Kershaw. I want you

437
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:35,359
Speaker 1: to dig in a little bit deeper on how she

438
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,479
Speaker 1: manages both of these things. One there was a player

439
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 1: who said, there's one player on this team.

440
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 2: I would like to date my wife. It's Clayton Kershaw.

441
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,880
Speaker 1: And then there was an anecdote about Justin Thomas kind

442
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 1: of getting really nervous and freaking out that he had

443
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 1: accidentally eaten Kershaw's protein bar before one of his pitches

444
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 1: and his before one of his games, and his routine

445
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,679
Speaker 1: and temperament is so specific on game day versus what

446
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 1: it is any other time. Explain sort of what those

447
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 1: two details unpack about.

448
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,679
Speaker 4: Sure, yeah, that was a quote from from Dan Herron,

449
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 4: who used to play for the Dodgers now is he

450
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 4: played for a long time in baseball, and so yeah,

451
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 4: he had the quote was He's the only guy I

452
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:25,399
Speaker 4: ever played with who I would let date my wife,

453
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 4: which I very much enjoyed, which I think explains a

454
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 4: decent amount about Kershaw, but also a decent amount about

455
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 4: the sort of average baseball player's opinion of his teammates.

456
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,680
Speaker 3: I sent just how trustworthy they are.

457
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,120
Speaker 4: So yeah, that's something that you know, I've known Dan

458
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 4: for a while and he had said that, like as

459
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 4: a joke one time when we were at dinner, and

460
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 4: subsequently I was like formally interviewing him for the book

461
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 4: and I brought it up and he was like, yeah, no,

462
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 4: I believe that. I'm like, I'm gonna put that in

463
00:24:58,320 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 4: the book. He was like, you're gonna put that in

464
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 4: a book and I was like, yes, that's what this

465
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 4: you know. He was like, all right, man, yeah, you know,

466
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 4: Dan's kind of a he pretends to be sort of

467
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 4: a hang dog sort but he's very sharp and so

468
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 4: but yeah, that was I was glad to get that

469
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 4: in there. And then yeah, Justin Turner was telling me

470
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 4: a story about how Kershaw has this like he has

471
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:23,239
Speaker 4: a very like meticulous routine and as part of it,

472
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 4: like everything has to be done by you know, at

473
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,120
Speaker 4: the minute. So like at at five fifty eight, he's

474
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 4: getting you know, his like sort of heating ointment on

475
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 4: at a certain time, and like at you know, two

476
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 4: minutes later, he's like chugging a thing of red Bull,

477
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:38,679
Speaker 4: and then like a minute after that he's eating a

478
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 4: protein bar. And so it's incumbent upon the people specifically

479
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:47,679
Speaker 4: in the training room. Also often the massage therapist Possum

480
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 4: Nakajima nam Yosaki Nakajima, if they call him Possum. So

481
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 4: like Possum's job was to like have all the elements

482
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,719
Speaker 4: in place essentially so that when Kershaw gets there, everything

483
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 4: is where it's expected to be. And one day Turner

484
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 4: came in from a workout, he like hadn't eaten or something,

485
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 4: and he just like saw the protein bar on the

486
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 4: table and he just grabbed it and started eating, and

487
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 4: Possum just blew up at him. He's like, what are

488
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 4: you doing, Like that's Kershaw's bar, and like ran out

489
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 4: of the room and told Possum to go get another one.

490
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 4: Don't tell him it was me. Which you know that

491
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,639
Speaker 4: first chapter, you know, which the times in the Athletic

492
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 4: were nice enough to excerpt. I wanted to, you know,

493
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 4: I chose that as the opening because I wanted to

494
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 4: really explain how being around Kershaw made his teammates feel

495
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 4: on a regular basis, and specifically like how it felt

496
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,920
Speaker 4: on the day he pitched, because he created and still

497
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 4: does to an extent in them this sort of odd

498
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 4: blend of like excitement and also apprehension. And baseball was

499
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:56,439
Speaker 4: like a very you know, it's like a workaday sport,

500
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 4: you know, like sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes

501
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 4: it rains, Like there's a lot of games, it's a

502
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 4: long season, and it can get really monotonous. But with Kershaw, starts,

503
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 4: like the days felt different because of the way he

504
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 4: sort of carried himself in the room before the game

505
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 4: and the intensity that he had and and sort of

506
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 4: his dedication to his routine. And so I wanted to

507
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 4: sort of you know, talking to a lot of his

508
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 4: teammates basically explain like, so what is it like on

509
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,639
Speaker 4: that day? And like there's this weird combination of like,

510
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 4: you're thrilled because you know, like we have the best

511
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 4: pitcher in the world starting tonight, we are probably going

512
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 4: to win. It's gonna be a fun day. And also

513
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 4: there's just kind of terror of like I really don't

514
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 4: want to screw up behind him. I don't want to

515
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 4: make an error. I don't want to like not play

516
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 4: what you know, not get a hit and you know,

517
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 4: not give him run support. I don't want to like

518
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 4: accidentally bump into him in the hallway what he's stalking through.

519
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 4: And you know, I don't want to do anything to

520
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 4: like upset his axis, and so uh trying to and

521
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 4: then taking all that and then asking Kershaw, it's like, Okay,

522
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 4: what is going through your mind while this has happened?

523
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 4: And you know, he was able to sort of open

524
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 4: a window into like where all that anxiety and restlessness

525
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 4: came from from his childhood, from sort of the way

526
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 4: he grew up, And you know, I really thought that

527
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 4: was a good way like portal sort of into the

528
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 4: book is just combining those two sort of perspectives, that

529
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 4: makes sense.

530
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: He seems a lot like Simon right before we do

531
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: convince me on Sunday marketings. You don't you don't want

532
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: to get in the way of Simon before he's doing

533
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 1: a show. But it actually is interesting to me, Simon,

534
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: because Sundays are game days for you. I never get

535
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: the sense that you are filled with anxiety, dread and

536
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 1: need to be sort of a level of intensity that

537
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 1: is a win or go home moment, even though you

538
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 1: have sixteen seventeen Sundays to win or go home.

539
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm just an over preparer, right, I'm one of

540
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,719
Speaker 3: those people that I work so hard in so many

541
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 3: hours because I don't have wipe and kids, Like my

542
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 3: life is football that But when the time comes, it's like,

543
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 3: even if it doesn't work out, I literally have no excuse.

544
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 3: I put all the work and I got possibly put in,

545
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 3: so I feel as prepared as I could be. But

546
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 3: the Kershaw My favorite part about Kershaw I'm sure he

547
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 3: touched about is in the book about how he's the

548
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 3: last of these great pitchers, right, these guys that go

549
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 3: complete games. Yeah, throw them out there and I send

550
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 3: these guys before we came on, like, I'll never forget it.

551
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 3: I'm a Phillies fan. I'll never forget that run we had.

552
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 3: And they bring in this blonde haired, tan six '

553
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 3: six dude to pitch against. It might have been Cole Handlers,

554
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 3: or maybe it was the next eight pitch, but he

555
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 3: came out. I was like, who's this California kid? Like

556
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 3: I had no idea his whole backstory anything like that.

557
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 3: And it's crazy to think that that kid who he

558
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 3: played pretty well against us, little that I know he

559
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 3: was going to become this Hall of Famer. That the

560
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 3: fact that he's been in La now for sixteen years,

561
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 3: and you go through all the guys they brought in

562
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 3: and everyone's like, well, this is the Dodger's next Kershaw,

563
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 3: And they kept leaving and going away, and the Kershall

564
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 3: just stayed there and either you know, would get the surgery,

565
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 3: come back and he'd lose her for a year or two,

566
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 3: and then he'd come back and he'd find it again.

567
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 3: The fact that you chose him, I just love because

568
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 3: it's if you're a baseball fan, you can't talk about

569
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 3: this last fifteen sixteen years without his name being up

570
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,959
Speaker 3: there is you know, arguably the best picture in I mean,

571
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 3: Chad wants to get to it. I want to get

572
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 3: to it. Did it all slid his by in that

573
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 3: twenty twenty World Series?

574
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 4: Like?

575
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 3: Was that a kind of think he needed to get done?

576
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 3: Because I'm I'm a hater. I'll be upfront, brother, I

577
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 3: am a Philly fan. I'm a hater. I held that

578
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 3: over him all the time. His playoff record and what

579
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 3: he did in the playoff that was a real think

580
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 3: and you just talked about it, right, This guy is

581
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 3: so meticulous. I can't imagine the wars in his head

582
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 3: because he obviously heard the noise, right. I mean, I

583
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 3: would love for you to dive into what was his

584
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 3: on the playoffs and that World series.

585
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 1: Yeah.

586
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 4: I think it's a really challenging thing for him to

587
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 4: sort of analyze because I think it's still very painful.

588
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 4: And I think part of like why he's you know,

589
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 4: has doesn't want to delve into a much. Part of

590
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 4: why you know he said he doesn't want to really

591
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 4: read the book is it's like really painful to go

592
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 4: back and relive those failures. I think he feels some

593
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 4: of them, specifically the twenty seventeen World Series. I think

594
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 4: I think he feels that pretty acutely. I guess when

595
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 4: he allows himself to and so part of his you know,

596
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 4: defense mechanism makes it sound you know, like I don't know,

597
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 4: it doesn't it's not exactly conveying it. But I think

598
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 4: the way he has sort of like guarded against it

599
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 4: is he tries to be as forward thinking as possible

600
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 4: and you know, propelling himself through you know, the five

601
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 4: day cycle during the season or the rehab cycle now.

602
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 4: But yeah, I mean, I think that the way he

603
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 4: has pitched in the postseason in his career is something

604
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 4: that you know, someone asked me, like was just doing

605
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 4: promo for the book. They were like, you know, does

606
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 4: it haunt him? And I was like, I mean, he

607
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 4: certainly wouldn't use that verb, but to an extent kind

608
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 4: of yeah, it's tough, Like it's tough to to feel like.

609
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 4: I think the feeling that he has dealt with is

610
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 4: that he has let his team down, you know, often

611
00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 4: in the postseason. And I think if you go through

612
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 4: all those years, right, because there was a seven year

613
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 4: stretch where he was kind of like the central figure

614
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 4: of each postseason, But if you go through those seven seasons.

615
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 4: You know, in thirteen and fourteen when he first got

616
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 4: there and he was like definitively the best pitcher in sport,

617
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 4: there was definitely some stuff where he was probably a

618
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 4: little too stubborn. He was a little too predictable in

619
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 4: his sequences. You know, he was doing things that the

620
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 4: Cardinals specifically could you know, sort of diagnose and take

621
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 4: advantage of, you know, and that's kind of where the

622
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 4: narrative starts. Twenty fifteen pitched pretty well, you know, twenty

623
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 4: the team just lost in the first round, kind of

624
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 4: you know, he pitched on short rest to in an

625
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 4: elimination game to you know, keep a series alive. They

626
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 4: lost the next game and they were out.

627
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 3: Explained to people, I don't want to cut you off,

628
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 3: but he yeah, okay, he had from two thousand and

629
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 3: nine to twenty nineteen, he had a sub three r

630
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 3: every year. You can't explain how incredible a ten year stretch.

631
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 3: Well in the res season this guy was. And now

632
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 3: we're talking about yeah failures. That's why it was such

633
00:32:57,880 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 3: a big deal to fans like me, where it's like,

634
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 3: this is the best pitcher maybe ever.

635
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 4: Right, I mean, he he is I kind of firmly

636
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 4: believe this. He is the best pitcher ever in terms

637
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 4: of this singular job of the pitcher, which is run prevention.

638
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 4: Like he gives up he does not give up runs

639
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 4: like other pitchers are better at getting strikeouts, all that

640
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 4: sort of stuff. But like he has the lowest ERA

641
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 4: in baseball history two point four eight, or at least

642
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 4: in the live ball era two point four eight, he

643
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 4: has the lowest ERA plus where it's sort of normalized

644
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 4: for all eras, and then his postseason ERA is four

645
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 4: point four to nine. You know, it's a significant difference.

646
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 4: And part of what the book is about, though, is

647
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 4: like why that difference matters? Right, because justin Verlander's postseason

648
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 4: ERA is worse than his regular season a RA. It's

649
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 4: not as bad, but it's worse, you know, same story

650
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 4: for Max Scherz Or why does no one care about that?

651
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 4: You know, why does that come up less? And it's

652
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 4: because Kershaw established a standard for himself and held himself

653
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 4: to it and never ran from responsibility, never you know,

654
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 4: asked out of games, you know, took the baseball in

655
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 4: short rest, pitched and relief. You know, was willing basically

656
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 4: to take on that the risk of failure, and he

657
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 4: often did fail, and the book is not meant to

658
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 4: is like absolve him or defend any of this or

659
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 4: make excuses, and he's not seeking any of that, but

660
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:16,320
Speaker 4: I think it is It is interesting as you go

661
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 4: through year by year, Like it's not like he would

662
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 4: just come out and get his ass kicked, like there was,

663
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 4: you know, there was stuff going on. He would pitch great,

664
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:26,839
Speaker 4: then he'd be on short rests and he pitched really good,

665
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 4: and then he'd be on short rest again and wouldn't

666
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 4: pitch is good. You know in the Astros were you know,

667
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 4: most likely stealing his signs. In twenty seventeen, there were

668
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 4: times where he was pitching in relief when he probably

669
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 4: shouldn't have been. And I think, like, you know, part

670
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 4: of the idea, like where the burden of greatness you know,

671
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 4: gets to is like if you pitch six innings in

672
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 4: a regular in a game, just a game, and you

673
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 4: give up three runs and you leave the game, you

674
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 4: are credited with a quality start, which is like what

675
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 4: baseball has sort of decided statistically is like the measure

676
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 4: of like, hey, you had a nice day as a

677
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 4: starting pitcher and your era is four point four to five,

678
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 4: which is worse than Kershaw's postseason era. So that is

679
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,280
Speaker 4: the standard to which he is judged by just basically

680
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 4: being like decent in the postseason, he's an abject failure,

681
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 4: and that's a mantle that he's earned, essentially. And so

682
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 4: part of the book is just like grappling with what

683
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,399
Speaker 4: do you do when you put yourself in this sort

684
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 4: of position where anything less than you know everything is

685
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 4: a failure. I think that's like something that only certain

686
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 4: athletes are really good enough to ever be judged by,

687
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,400
Speaker 4: and I think how they handle that is fascinating.

688
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 1: Simon, can you name the fastest growing ticketing app in

689
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: the United States?

690
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:38,479
Speaker 3: Game Time?

691
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,040
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692
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,480
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693
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,640
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694
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,920
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695
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696
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 1: in Connecticut. Guess what the hottest team in baseball? The

697
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 1: New York Yankees. I can get into see them for

698
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 1: thirty bucks.

699
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Speaker 2: No matter where you live. Download the game Time app.

700
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Speaker 2: Get out have some fun this week. You deserve it.

701
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 1: You can redeem code favorites for twenty dollars off your

702
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 1: first purchase. Terms apply again. Just download the game Time

703
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704
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 1: first purchase. Last minute tickets loose prices guaranteed. So the

705
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:28,720
Speaker 1: guy comes into the league, he's lights out. He's winning

706
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:32,479
Speaker 1: what three Cy Young's By the time he's twenty seven,

707
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,800
Speaker 1: he's basically a Hall of Famer, possibly one of the

708
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 1: best pitchers who's ever lived before the Dodgers are really

709
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: even going on these epic runs where they've won eleven

710
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:48,919
Speaker 1: division titles or something like that. You describe in great

711
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 1: detail the build up, the level of intensity it takes

712
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 1: to get on the mound on the fifth day, And

713
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 1: I agree with you a lot of his postseason lack

714
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 1: of success is also bad luck, not getting offensive support team,

715
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 1: stealing signs, having to go on short rest because they

716
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 1: really have no one else to turn to, and then

717
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: people considering that to be a failure.

718
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 2: Did he ever not want to go into the postseason

719
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:20,839
Speaker 2: and have to confront that again?

720
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 1: Like after I think it was, like, what was it,

721
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:28,240
Speaker 1: six straight years of postseason not just lack of success,

722
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:33,439
Speaker 1: but white hot spotlight, not getting over the top. Yeah,

723
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 1: at some point that's got a way on him, like

724
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:38,959
Speaker 1: I don't want to do it again.

725
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 4: It's you know, it's an interesting it's a very interesting question.

726
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 4: I mean I think that you know, he had this

727
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 4: interview after they lost in twenty nineteen against the Nationals

728
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 4: where he gave up these two just sort of titanic

729
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 4: home runs to Juan Soto and Anthony Rendon. He's pitching

730
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,360
Speaker 4: in relief in a situation where he probably shouldn't have

731
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,280
Speaker 4: been pitching in really, if they had a really good bullpen,

732
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 4: he should, you know. But anyway, so you just he

733
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 4: just looks just like utterly crushed, you know, and he

734
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 4: says something to the effect of, you know, everything people

735
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 4: say about me in the postseason is true, basically, like

736
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 4: everything you know what people say about me is right.

737
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 4: I am a failure in the postseason essentially, And then

738
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 4: the next thing he said was like, I'm not gonna

739
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 4: hang my head. I'm gonna come back. I'm gonna do

740
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 4: everything I can to you know, be back here next

741
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 4: year and be in the same situation. And next year

742
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 4: they ended up winning the World Series, Right, So I

743
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 4: don't think that he ever really was willing to you know,

744
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 4: to walk away from it or just hope, like it'd

745
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 4: be nice if we won seventy five games this year

746
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 4: and I didn't have to deal with this crap, you know,

747
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 4: but I do. I will say that the year after that,

748
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 4: in twenty twenty one, he injured his elbow and he

749
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 4: wasn't able to pitch in the postseason, and we had

750
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 4: some conversations that really this was kind of what made

751
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 4: me interested in, you know, trying to do the book,

752
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 4: and and we were just kind of talking. So it's

753
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 4: like a little like I don't want to miscontrue, you know,

754
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 4: what it was, but we were basically I was just

755
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 4: like I was kind of asking him, like, how are

756
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,800
Speaker 4: you feeling not being able to pitch in this? And

757
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 4: he was, you know, describing just like the disappointment of

758
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 4: not being able to compete and not being able to

759
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 4: help the team and feeling like kind of left out

760
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:26,800
Speaker 4: and all that sort of stuff. And I was like,

761
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 4: is there any part of you though that's like you

762
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 4: wake up and like you don't feel whatever it is

763
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 4: you feel when you have to do that. And he

764
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 4: was like, oh, yeah, for sure, you know, And and

765
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 4: I think that's part of what you know, we get

766
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:41,759
Speaker 4: into in that in the first chapter of Just Like,

767
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 4: there is a part of him that is very much

768
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 4: looking forward to not having to put his body, his mind,

769
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 4: his spirit through the real you know, just the stress

770
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 4: of having to be Clayton Kershaw on the mound. And

771
00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 4: at the same time he's not ready for that to

772
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 4: be open. And I think he's been grappling with that

773
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,839
Speaker 4: much more since they won in twenty twenty. I think

774
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:07,840
Speaker 4: if they had not won in twenty twenty, he probably

775
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 4: wouldn't be as open about that. But having at least

776
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,240
Speaker 4: the one ring, you know, even in the shortened season,

777
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:19,720
Speaker 4: allows there to be, you know, something closer to closure

778
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 4: on it, because it's you know, he talks about it

779
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 4: pretty openly, like it's hard. It's hard on him physically,

780
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 4: it's hard on him mentally, you know, it's hard and

781
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 4: him emotionally just to have to do this. It's you know,

782
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 4: it's it's not like a fun day at the office

783
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 4: when he pitches no.

784
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 1: No caveats Andy, no shortened season. A World Series win

785
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 1: is a World Series win.

786
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:41,440
Speaker 2: I agree with it.

787
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 4: By the way they tell you, that's I agree with you.

788
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 4: Like they played that stupid season. We might as well.

789
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:46,320
Speaker 3: Count it?

790
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 2: Why not count?

791
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,760
Speaker 1: Also, it's not that easy to play in the conditions

792
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 1: they played in, Like there's so many challenges. We talk

793
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 1: about this with the NBA bubble too, like there were

794
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 1: just because it wasn't a full season, the level of

795
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 1: challenges that each team confronted to win a title that year,

796
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 1: we're tremendous. Before we let you go, there's a great

797
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 1: story that sort of to me encapsulates his level of intensity.

798
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:19,720
Speaker 1: That involves a very famous name, the most bankable actor

799
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 1: in the history of Hollywood.

800
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 2: Share that story.

801
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 4: Uh yeah, sure, there was. There was a day and

802
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 4: I believe it was twenty thirteen where you know, an

803
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 4: actor visited the Dodgers' clubhouse. And part of the issue

804
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 4: why this was like a regular thing. You know, if

805
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 4: you go to Doctors Stadium, like you'll always see sort

806
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 4: of famous people there. It's you know, it's la But

807
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 4: the actor showed up late, and he showed up a

808
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 4: little late, not too late, but he showed up late.

809
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 4: And he showed up on the day that Kershaw was pitching.

810
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 4: And so he comes into the clubhouse to meet the

811
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,760
Speaker 4: team before the game, and you know there's some players,

812
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 4: you know, around Kershaw's his locker and the players are

813
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 4: like super excited and they're you know, they're yelling you

814
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 4: catchphrases you know that the the actor had made famous.

815
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 4: And they're all like super amped, and Kershaw's just like glowering,

816
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 4: you know, he's just like miserable. And he just gets

817
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 4: up and you know, he's got his dressed like he

818
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 4: looks ridiculous. He's you know, it's the middle of summer.

819
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 4: He's wearing this huge like winter jacket that he always wears,

820
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:24,840
Speaker 4: you know, before every start. It's like zipped all the

821
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,320
Speaker 4: way up. He's got a glove and his baseball. The

822
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 4: game's not starting for like another hour, and he stomps

823
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 4: out of the room, and on the way out, the

824
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 4: actor like raises his hand, he's like Clayton my man.

825
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 4: It tries to give him a high five, and Kershaw

826
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 4: just completely big League Samuel L. Jackson uh and just

827
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:46,719
Speaker 4: just just left him totally hanging. And sam Jackson was

828
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:51,880
Speaker 4: just like what, Uh So, Yeah, I was told that

829
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 4: story a couple of years ago, and I worked very

830
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,319
Speaker 4: hard to confirm that it was true because I very

831
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 4: much wanted it to be in the book. So I

832
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 4: had to do I talk to many different people, including Kershaw,

833
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 4: who confirmed that that's a true story. It's one of

834
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 4: those like when you hear it, you're like, oh, I

835
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 4: almost don't want to check because I don't want someone

836
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,359
Speaker 4: to say this never happened, but thankfully it did. So yeah,

837
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 4: I was happy about that.

838
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:15,720
Speaker 2: I know that feeling.

839
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, I do.

840
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:19,320
Speaker 3: I do.

841
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:22,799
Speaker 1: Andy, Great Stuff, Thanks for coming on, Thanks for talking

842
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 1: about the book which I want everybody to pick up.

843
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 1: The last of his kind, Clayton Kershaw and the Burden

844
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 1: of Greatness. Also talking about the betting scandals. Andy McCullough,

845
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:37,320
Speaker 1: baseball writer at the Athletic Great Stuff. As reminder, the

846
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 1: Favorites podcast is presented by Bet three six five Bet

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Speaker 1: with our next episode of The Favorites on the Action

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Speaker 2: available twenty four to seven at one eight hundred gambler