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Speaker 1: This week's classic episode is of particular importance to us

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Speaker 1: and arguably the world. On November twenty ninth, twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 1: America is Darth Vader. Henry Kissinger passed away.

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Speaker 2: It's true, and I mean, I think it's kind of

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Speaker 2: been an ongoing joke simply because the guy seemed like

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Speaker 2: his blood was flowing with sith Lord energy and that

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Speaker 2: he was never going to die. So Ben quite often

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Speaker 2: gauged like time against his kissing you're still with.

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Speaker 1: Us, And then we literally made that joke. I think

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Speaker 1: the day that he passed away, and I.

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Speaker 3: Think I was like, we did this and this was us. No,

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Speaker 3: I don't think we have No, we didn't. It was

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Speaker 3: a hundred years old crazy. We were literally waiting on

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Speaker 3: the clock with him. Yeah, And it is strange to

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Speaker 3: if you look at the reporting that's come out anywhere

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Speaker 3: in mainstream, it's always Henry Kissinger, like this very important

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Speaker 3: figure right in the world, who also did a lot

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Speaker 3: of bad things. And we're going to list a lot

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Speaker 3: of those things out in this.

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Speaker 1: Only up to twenty nineteen, right when we recorded the episode. Now,

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Speaker 1: I didn't mention it on this episode, but as you

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Speaker 1: guys know, I had a different life before podcasting, and

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Speaker 1: as a result of that, I actually saw Henry Kissinger

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Speaker 1: speak in eight when he was up at Athens, Georgia

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Speaker 1: at Uga. Very very intelligent man, which we also point

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Speaker 1: out in this episode. But being intelligent does not necessarily

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Speaker 1: make you a good person.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is when you were a paperboy, right,

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Speaker 3: this is when I was a paper.

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Speaker 2: Okay, okay, exactly, Yeah, yeah, no, I mean it's funny too.

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Speaker 2: We talked about even it came up in the are

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Speaker 2: the life extension episode or the very least the sort

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Speaker 2: of I guess grief technology episode where it's like, what

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Speaker 2: if someone figured out how to make an AI synthetic

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Speaker 2: version of Henry Kissinger's brain and use that to consult

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Speaker 2: on like war tactics, No, thank you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean he'd have some interesting thoughts hot takes.

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Speaker 3: Ye.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and they you know, the technology would probably arrive

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Speaker 1: at conclusions that would be close to that of Kissinger Prime.

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Speaker 1: But this, this person is incredibly important to the state

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Speaker 1: of the world as we understand it today. He is responsible,

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Speaker 1: is responsible in one way or another for millions of deaths, right.

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Speaker 3: And decisions that went that turned into actions, right or

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Speaker 3: at least so as a voice in a room a

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Speaker 3: bunch of times that advised this, sird, Yeah, that ended

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Speaker 3: up killing millions.

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Speaker 2: And you gotta wonder if a guy like that even

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Speaker 2: makes that connection, like I did this, you know, I

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Speaker 2: killed these people? Or is it more of a matter

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Speaker 2: of it's just the cost of doing business. And I

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Speaker 2: certainly didn't directly do anything. It's sort of the gun

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Speaker 2: versus the person shooting kind of arguments.

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Speaker 1: You know, he's a big proponent of the greater good,

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Speaker 1: by far, one of the most wintral secretaries of State

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Speaker 1: in US history, to the point where he may have

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Speaker 1: been steering the ship the way that typically a US

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Speaker 1: president or Congress would have or a Dick Cheney or

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Speaker 1: a Dick Cheney, right. You know what if there was

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Speaker 1: some kind of New American century, what if we made

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Speaker 1: that a project or maybe something in twenty twenty five. Anyhow, anyhow,

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Speaker 1: Kissinger did not live to see this stuff. If you

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Speaker 1: are interested in learning much more about Kissinger as well

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Speaker 1: after our episode, please check out the six part series

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Speaker 1: from our friends Behind the Bastards on Kissinger. As you

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Speaker 1: could tell from the title, they may have a little

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Speaker 1: bit of bias, but We went into this objectively, and

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Speaker 1: so what you are hearing in this episode from twenty

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Speaker 1: nineteen is factual and terrifying.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, let's jump.

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Speaker 4: In from UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History

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Speaker 4: is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now

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Speaker 4: or learn this stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 4: A production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works.

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Speaker 3: Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt.

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Speaker 1: Noel is not here, but we'll be returning soon. They

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Speaker 1: called me Ben. We were joined as always with our

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Speaker 1: super producer Paul Mission Control decad. Most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 1: You are here, and that makes this stuff. They don't

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Speaker 1: want you to know this. We've been doing this check

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Speaker 1: in at the beginning of the show. We hope that

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Speaker 1: you check in as well when you before you dive

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Speaker 1: into the strange, bizarre, and sometimes terrifying things we explore here.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so Matt, Yeah good, Yes, thumbs down, two thumbs up.

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Speaker 1: You just released a show.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I did, Yes, I didn't. I assisted in

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Speaker 3: the production slash creation of a show called Noble Blood

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Speaker 3: that is now available. It's number three on the charts

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Speaker 3: right now in iTunes.

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Speaker 1: Congratulations, Yeah, it's all.

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Speaker 3: It's Aaron Mankey and Dana Schwartz's and Trevor Young.

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Speaker 1: Congratulations, Paul, how you doing out there? Got a thumbs

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Speaker 1: up thumbs up at a stylish answer from Mission Control.

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Speaker 3: I want to bring this up before we get too

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Speaker 3: deep into this. I just finished Mister Robot season three finally,

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Speaker 3: and you know, we have a bit of a history

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Speaker 3: with that show. We did a couple episodes surrounding season two, I.

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Speaker 1: Believe, and we have masks we do show.

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Speaker 3: I have one sitting in my room and when I

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Speaker 3: watched the show, I always put it on, which is

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Speaker 3: I don't know, is that too weird?

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Speaker 1: No, that's awesome, that's great, Okay, cool.

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Speaker 3: I just had to bring that up. I was just

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Speaker 3: excited that the next one is supposedly coming out this year.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I had heard. I had heard. No, they'll still

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Speaker 1: have Robny Malick. I imagine, I certainly hope. So what we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about maybe a sensitive subject to some

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Speaker 1: people who find themselves politically partisan, right at least in

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Speaker 1: the Western sense, And we want to hear your opinion. So,

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Speaker 1: as always, if there's something that you want to tell

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Speaker 1: us and you're not near a keyboard at the moment,

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Speaker 1: just pause this episode. We'll wait for you and call

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Speaker 1: us directly.

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Speaker 3: Yes, call our number. It is one h three to

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Speaker 3: three st d W I t K.

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Speaker 1: What I love about this conversation with mister Robot is

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Speaker 1: that we're we're kind of foreshadowing something that'll come into

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Speaker 1: play later, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, without fully saying it right right. And there's there's

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Speaker 3: a character within the universe. There are a couple, but

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Speaker 3: there's one in particular in the universe of mister Robot

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Speaker 3: that I find that maybe you will too, has some

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Speaker 3: similarities to our guest of honor, our person of interest.

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Speaker 1: There we go, There we go our POI. Today, Miss

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Speaker 1: Robot concerns shadowy forces working in secret, conspiring right the

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Speaker 1: power behind the throne. And it's often said in fiction

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Speaker 1: and nonfiction alike that the true power of a nation,

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Speaker 1: a kingdom, or an empire isn't usually the face. It's

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Speaker 1: often not the person on the throne. It's the people

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Speaker 1: behind that person. The folks you see standing silently behind

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Speaker 1: a king, a prime minister, or president as they deliver

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Speaker 1: a speech they probably did not write. Today's episode is

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Speaker 1: about one such character. One of the most influential people

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Speaker 1: in the history of modern US politics Henry Kissinger.

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Speaker 3: So let's go to the beginning. Henry Kissinger was born

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Speaker 3: Heinz Alfred Kissinger on May twenty seventh, nineteen twenty three,

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Speaker 3: in a place called Firth, Germany. He was one of

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Speaker 3: two sons born to Paula Stern Kissinger and Lewis Kissinger. Now,

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Speaker 3: his father was a teacher, and you know, there was

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Speaker 3: this group of people that came to power called the Nazis,

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Speaker 3: and when that occurred, he lost his job in his

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Speaker 3: entire career. You know, the Nazis, of course were carrying

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Speaker 3: out the orders of mister Adolph Hitler, and they of

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Speaker 3: course began prosecuting Jewish people throughout Germany and countries all

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Speaker 3: surrounding Germany. And the Kissingers were in fact Jewish, and

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Speaker 3: their family, I guess the larger family saw the effects

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Speaker 3: of this firsthand. Now, of course, Henry was just a

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Speaker 3: little boy at the time, and he seemed to be

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Speaker 3: a better student, at least to his parents and to

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Speaker 3: the people around him. They knows he's a better student

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Speaker 3: than perhaps an athlete or you know, someone who is

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Speaker 3: going to pursue some kind of physical career. And you know,

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Speaker 3: as the anti Semitism was increasing there in Germany where

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Speaker 3: they were living, the whole family decided, we have to

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Speaker 3: get out of here, and in nineteen thirty eight they

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Speaker 3: ended up going to England, and then not long after

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Speaker 3: that they ended up going to the United States.

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Speaker 1: Which was a pressing to move for any student of history.

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Speaker 1: The family. Once they reached the US, they ended up

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Speaker 1: settling in New York City, which you may remember from

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Speaker 1: several Saucy commercials. Kissinger completed high school there and began

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Speaker 1: taking night classes at City College with the intention of

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Speaker 1: becoming an accountant a CPA. Oh on what small things

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Speaker 1: does history hinge? You know what I mean?

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Speaker 3: It could have gone a very different way.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine him as a CPA. We'll see. I

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Speaker 1: want to hear what you think about that, folks. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So he worked his way through college. He went to

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Speaker 1: a factory during the day and then he would go

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Speaker 1: to class. During World War Two, he joined the military

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Speaker 1: and served in Germany. He was working in army intelligence.

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Speaker 3: It is a bit odd, right because he's from Germany,

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Speaker 3: but he went to the United States and now he's

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Speaker 3: going back to Germany to fight for the Americans.

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Speaker 1: Or with you know, as an American, Well that that

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Speaker 1: is you know, it seems counterintuitive, but it happens a lot.

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Speaker 1: So I've got a couple of friends whose families were

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Speaker 1: originally from Iran and they live in the US, but

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Speaker 1: because they spoke Farsi, they got jobs as translators.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, they ended up you know, going back to

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Speaker 3: the Middle East.

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Speaker 1: I'm assuming I believe that they are US based, but

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Speaker 1: I understood.

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Speaker 3: Just yeah, no, of course, we can't say anymore. Understand

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Speaker 3: understand that well, and this is a it's a big

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Speaker 3: deal here. So even though he was very young at

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Speaker 3: the time when his family left, or you know, somewhat

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Speaker 3: young when when the family left Germany, he still experienced

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Speaker 3: what was occurring in his home country. And then to

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Speaker 3: leave and then get to go back and serve in

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Speaker 3: the military for a country that's going to essentially attempt

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Speaker 3: to liberate the country from which you've fled, that's a

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Speaker 3: big deal.

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Speaker 1: Oh, the biggest, are you kidding? Yes, he also is

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Speaker 1: something you and I mentioned off airman. He also didn't

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Speaker 1: sit idly by during his time in the service, right,

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Speaker 1: he actually saw combat.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he got to experience the Battle of the Bulge firsthand.

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Speaker 3: And if you don't know much about that, we won't

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Speaker 3: go into it, but I would say look it up.

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Speaker 3: It was a German offensive that occurred in the West,

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Speaker 3: and history describes it as quote the deadliest and most

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Speaker 3: desperate battle of the war in the West. It involved

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Speaker 3: three armies, three German armies that essentially we're attacking over

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Speaker 3: the course of quite a while. And again there's his historian,

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Speaker 3: his biographer, Ferguson niall Ferguson I believe is his name.

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Speaker 3: He describes it as Henry Kissinger experienced heavy shelling firsthand.

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Speaker 3: And again these are big experiences for a growing person,

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Speaker 3: you know, someone who's coming into their own having this

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Speaker 3: kind of thing occurred to him. And that's not all

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Speaker 3: that happened during.

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Speaker 1: The war, right. He also had the stark and terrifying,

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Speaker 1: heartbreaking revelation that all of his family members that stayed

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Speaker 1: in Germany were dead. He witnessed the horrors of the Holocaust.

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Speaker 1: He was present during the liberation of a concentration camp,

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Speaker 1: and following the war he remained in Europe as an

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Speaker 1: instructor at a place called the European Command Intelligence School,

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Speaker 1: also in Germany, and.

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Speaker 3: Then in nineteen forty seven, he returns to the US.

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Speaker 3: He goes to Harvard and enrolls there and he graduated

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Speaker 3: in the class of nineteen fifty and he had a

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Speaker 3: degree in government. Pretty interesting stuff there, right, So he's

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Speaker 3: changing course quite a bit from those original aspirations of

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Speaker 3: becoming an accountant again, with these experiences that are changing him.

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Speaker 3: He continued his studies as a graduate student and ended

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Speaker 3: up earning a master's degree in nineteen fifty two and

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Speaker 3: then eventually his PhD in fifty four. And he was

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Speaker 3: also teaching at the Harvard University.

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Speaker 1: And here's an important note. So we always have to

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Speaker 1: be very careful when attempting to ascribe personal motives to

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Speaker 1: an individual. And we know that something happened, something fundamentally

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Speaker 1: changed his life during his experiences in World War Two.

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Speaker 1: He became someone with a mission. We like the historians

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Speaker 1: research have conjectured here on what his revelatory moments were,

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Speaker 1: and those are pretty good guesses. But regardless of what

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Speaker 1: specific instance it was that was the big change. Post war,

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Speaker 1: he is no longer interested in accounting, or perhaps, if

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Speaker 1: we want to wax a bit poetic, he is concerned

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Speaker 1: with a different sort of accounting Oh, yes, he is

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Speaker 1: concerned with what he sees as moral accounting, right, preventing,

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Speaker 1: oddly enough, the horrors of World War Two, fighting for

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Speaker 1: what he and he's alive today, fighting for what he

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Speaker 1: would see as a greater good. And this brings him

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Speaker 1: to his career in academia. Right. So, as you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: he earned his PhD in nineteen fifty four. Between nineteen

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Speaker 1: fifty two and nineteen sixty nine, he directed the Harvard

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Speaker 1: International Seminar. This was a study organization in which the

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Speaker 1: advanced students, along with a professor, conduct research and contribute

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Speaker 1: to discussions. It's sort of a nascent think tank, which

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Speaker 1: happens a lot in grad.

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Speaker 3: Schools, and in this kind of environment and position lets

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Speaker 3: him start making relationships that he would eventually use later

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Speaker 3: on in his career.

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Speaker 1: Right right. And it may surprise some of us to

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Speaker 1: learn just how much policy here in the United States

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Speaker 1: is written by professors in academic roles. You know, it

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Speaker 1: starts with proposals, it starts with research, right and studies,

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Speaker 1: or it starts with something like ALEC wherein that's that's

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Speaker 1: capital A capital L, capital E, capital C. It's a

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Speaker 1: process through which corporations dictate policy for better or worse.

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Speaker 1: I'm just saying, yeah, it doesn't. Because a politician is

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Speaker 1: a fan of something doesn't mean they actually wrote it

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Speaker 1: anymore than a prime minister or president giving a speech

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Speaker 1: means they actually wrote it.

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Speaker 3: Ultimately, we're going to learn here that power, many times

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Speaker 3: and in many ways is developed through personal relationships more

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Speaker 3: than a lot of other ways.

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Speaker 1: Right, absolutely, absolutely, which is a failure of the human

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Speaker 1: species because it lessens the impact of meritocracy. But that's

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Speaker 1: a whole other thing. It's a whole other bag of

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Speaker 1: badgers here. The point is for this part, this is

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Speaker 1: where Kissinger gets his taste of being a power behind

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Speaker 1: the throne. He's visited by tons of international figures that,

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Speaker 1: as you said, Matt, he'll later deal with in a

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Speaker 1: governmental capacity. He joins the Council on Foreign Relations, and

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Speaker 1: he publishes something called Nuclear Weapons and Foreign Policy, and

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Speaker 1: this gets him some bonafide, some street cred. He is

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Speaker 1: now seen as a leading expert on international relations and

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Speaker 1: national defense policy. And then he gets involved with the Rockefellers.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, he has eighteen months of working with this

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Speaker 3: thing called the Rockefeller Brothers Fund. He actually directed it

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Speaker 3: in nineteen fifty six, and it had this Special Studies project. Okay,

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Speaker 3: now just listen to this. It's a program developed to

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Speaker 3: investigate possible domestic and international problems. Okay, I hear what

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Speaker 3: you're saying to me, investigate possible domestic and international problems.

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Speaker 3: In nineteen fifty seven, he became a lecturer at Harvard.

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Speaker 3: He's talking to the students like he's changing or perhaps

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Speaker 3: influencing the way students are thinking. And eventually he gets

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Speaker 3: promoted to a professor in nineteen sixty two, and again

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Speaker 3: he's able to teach others some of the things that

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Speaker 3: he's learning and the ways he's viewing the world already.

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Speaker 1: Right. And also during this time he joins other international

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Speaker 1: and domestic organizations and think tanks. He's at the National

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Speaker 1: Security Council, the Arms Controlled Disarmament Agency, and the RAND Corporation.

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Speaker 3: While, dude, you just got to jump in all the

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Speaker 3: things we've mentioned thus far, that he's joining up Council

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Speaker 3: on Foreign Relations, the Rand Corporation. We've talked about.

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Speaker 1: A lot of these, right, Yes, they are the source

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Speaker 1: of what could plausibly be called a lot of real conspiracies,

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Speaker 1: not theories. So we'll just laundry list real quick. The

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Speaker 1: rest of the broad strokes of his career, so he's

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Speaker 1: working full time at Harvard from sixty two to sixty five,

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Speaker 1: and sixty five he becomes a consultant to the State Department.

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Speaker 1: He's their Vietnam consultant from sixty five to nineteen sixty seven.

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Speaker 1: He visits Vietnam several times. Most of nineteen sixty eight

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Speaker 1: he was working as a campaign guru for then Governor

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Speaker 1: Nelson Rockefeller, who was running for the Republican nomination for

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Speaker 1: the presidency.

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Speaker 3: Against Richard Nixon.

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Speaker 1: Yep, yep, against Richie Nix himself, and despite the fact

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Speaker 1: that Nixon did defeat Rockefeller, Rockefeller contacted Nixon and was like, Hey,

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Speaker 1: we don't know exactly what they said. There was something

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Speaker 1: along the lines like, hey, good game, bro. By the way,

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Speaker 1: you know you had some real hustle out there. I

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Speaker 1: want to give a shout out to my boy h K.

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Speaker 1: Put him on the team, get him off the bench.

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Speaker 1: And that's how Kissinger ended up heading the National Security Council.

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Speaker 1: Kissinger already had a plan laid out. He did not

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Speaker 1: like the US foreign policy toward the USSR the Soviet Union.

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Speaker 1: He thought that they had been too nice. Essentially, they

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Speaker 1: have been kid gloves. They had not been consistent, and

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Speaker 1: as we know, consistency is a huge deal in any

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Speaker 1: international relationship. So he said, look, let's be honest. The

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Speaker 1: Soviet Union, they are the big batties, they are main rival,

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Speaker 1: there are main opponents. But you gotta respect him, you

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Speaker 1: know what I mean. That's what he was kind of

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Speaker 1: the same way. He said, look, take him seriously. It's

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Speaker 1: dangerous to nuclear power. And one of his big early

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Speaker 1: successes was the institution of detante, which is easing relationships,

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Speaker 1: easing tensions, saying, look, we both know the lay of

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Speaker 1: the chessboard here. We're probably never going to be friends,

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Speaker 1: but we should communicate and we should do our best

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Speaker 1: not to blow up the world while we fight with

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Speaker 1: our nuclear weapons.

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Speaker 3: Some would say that's pretty smart. That's a good way

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Speaker 3: to to look at things. Let's not blow each other up.

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Speaker 3: We get it, we know who we are. I can

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Speaker 3: I understand that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's that's a very clear cut thing, right,

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Speaker 1: and it's and it's a powerful thing, even even in

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Speaker 1: a microcosmic level. Some of us may have had that

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Speaker 1: occur in our personal lives.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, certainly, but it is far more nuanced than that,

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Speaker 3: right in order like that, if that's the ideal or

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Speaker 3: that's the baseline goal, let's not blow each other up.

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Speaker 3: We understand who we are underneath. That is just oh wasps,

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Speaker 3: just a swarm of wasps for some reason.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh yeah. Absolutely. So one of the things

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Speaker 1: he does is the successful agreement on something called SALT

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Speaker 1: or Strategic Arms Limitations Treaty. So Union and the US say, okay,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna limit the number of nuclear weapons we have.

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Speaker 1: We're not going to get rid of them ever, because

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Speaker 1: we both know who we are, but you know, we

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Speaker 1: promise not to have millions of them, because that's just egregious.

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Speaker 1: And when they signed this agreement, he was seen as

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Speaker 1: someone again working for the greater good, and the greater

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Speaker 1: good being avoiding nuclear annihilation or a nuclear war. And

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Speaker 1: now you will hear people argue whether he is a

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Speaker 1: hero or a villain. He used to speak about once

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Speaker 1: a year here in Georgia, and I believe he hasn't

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Speaker 1: done that for a number of years. But you could

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Speaker 1: go visit him here and speak at different places, and

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Speaker 1: he is treated very much as an elder statesman, a

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Speaker 1: policy emperor, you know, a king behind the throne. But

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Speaker 1: regardless of what you might think of his work, there

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Speaker 1: is no arguing that he's been anything other than massively

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Speaker 1: successful in his personal life. Between January twenty seventeen and

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Speaker 1: January twenty eighteen, he pulled in an estimated fifty eight

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Speaker 1: million dollars. This makes him, by far one of the

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Speaker 1: highest paid politicians in the world, accepting you know, dictators

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Speaker 1: or Putin type figures.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, people who set that number themselves, essentially by the

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Speaker 3: state or whatever the state pays then right.

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Speaker 1: His estimated net worth is said to be one hundred

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Speaker 1: and eighty five million, according to the publication People with Money.

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Speaker 1: Some folks regard him as a hero. They say he's

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Speaker 1: a man who helped secure the US position as the hedgemon,

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Speaker 1: as the premier global superpower. Others, however, consider him an

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Speaker 1: irredeemable villain.

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Speaker 3: Why we'll talk about that right after a quick word

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Speaker 3: from our sponsor.

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Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. I get. While opinions on

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Speaker 1: Kissinger may differ over the course of his career, he

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Speaker 1: has been implicated in numerous activities that could be called

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Speaker 1: at the very least illegal. He's also been the subject

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Speaker 1: of numerous conspiracy theories. Let's just laundry list some of

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Speaker 1: the illegal actions that he was directly involved in.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely. Let's jump to nineteen sixty nine and seventy in Cambodia. Now,

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Speaker 3: Henry Kissinger is considered, i guessed, one of the one

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Speaker 3: of the main architects of the secret bombing that occurred

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Speaker 3: there in Cambodia. And this bombing itself played a really

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Speaker 3: important role in bringing about the Khmer Rouge that we've

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Speaker 3: discussed before on this show, certainly on YouTube as well,

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Speaker 3: bringing them about as a power there in Cambodia, as

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Speaker 3: basically an unintended side effect of taking out the power

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Speaker 3: that already exist in that.

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Speaker 1: Country, attempting to eliminate the communist threat that they saw.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and let's just go ahead and say this at

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Speaker 3: the top here. Many times we've seen over the history

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Speaker 3: of the United States that there is a major enemy

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Speaker 3: that we will identify and attempt to eliminate or even

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Speaker 3: if it's just ideological, and then by militarily or through

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Speaker 3: a coup eliminating that. There are these unintended consequences that

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Speaker 3: come about because of the vacuum of power that exists

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Speaker 3: in whatever that place is where some group or despot

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Speaker 3: or person will come through and just grasp that power.

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Speaker 3: And that's what we see happening in Cambodia in nineteen

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Speaker 3: sixty nine to seventy.

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Speaker 1: Yep, YEP. At least forty thousand people died as a

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Speaker 1: result of this.

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Speaker 3: The bombing itself that he was the architect of right and.

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Speaker 1: He entered into the ceasefire negotiations with North Vietnam. He

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Speaker 1: was awarded a Nobel Peace Prize for this, and his

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Speaker 1: critics find that ironic, and reportedly even Kissinger himself was like,

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Speaker 1: I don't deserve this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, especially when you think about the Khmune rousion

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Speaker 3: and what happened afterwards because because of them, millions of

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Speaker 3: people were slaughtered.

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Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, let's go to October nineteen sixty nine. He

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Speaker 1: had this thing called Madman theory, and Madman Theory, now

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Speaker 1: with the benefit of retrospect, is weird and hilarious. It

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Speaker 1: was essentially a pr branding campaign whereby Kissinger wanted to

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Speaker 1: make leaders of communist nations think that Richard Nixon was insane,

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Speaker 1: like scare them basically, yeah, like larger in life kind

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Speaker 1: of crazy person. You don't know, is he going left,

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Speaker 1: is he going right? Is he launching a nuke? This?

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Speaker 3: Does it remind you of something?

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Speaker 1: Maybe? Maybe, But in this case it's an act. So

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Speaker 1: the I mean, in this case, it is a calculated thing.

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Speaker 1: And it was of great benefit to in backdoor diplomatic conversations,

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Speaker 1: because one thing a lot of diplomats do is they say, look,

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Speaker 1: we're like each other. We're just we happen to be

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Speaker 1: on different sides of a conversation, just.

435
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 3: Trying to do the best for the people we represent.

436
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 1: And you know, I get it, Like I work directly

437
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: with Nixon and he is nuts, So I don't know

438
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 1: what he's gonna do. I feel like it's best for

439
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 1: us to work this out between us and quickly before

440
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 1: he gets I mean, he might have a bad day.

441
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 3: He's got that football thing that has the codes in it.

442
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 3: It's crazy.

443
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 1: So yeah, So it's kind of like building rapport, Like

444
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 1: you're as a diplomat, you're sort of distancing yourself from

445
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 1: the policy and saying like, I'm here to help you, buddy.

446
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 1: So so this is effective. He has something called Operation

447
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: Giant Lance Nixon again. Nixon sends eighteen B fifty two

448
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,680
Speaker 1: bombers with nuclear warheads to the border of the Soviet Union,

449
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 1: the eastern border, and they're hoping that this madman theory

450
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 1: is believable enough that the Soviet government will panic and

451
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 1: say and pressure it's proxy North Vietnam to accept US

452
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:22,640
Speaker 1: peace demands. And could you say this is a brilliant

453
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: sigh up? Could you say, it's just it's ugly. It's

454
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 1: a bully tactic. But bully tactics kind of par for

455
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: the course in a lot of these things, especially if

456
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: you're playing real politic.

457
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 3: And you know, and you're playing with nukes, and you're.

458
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:38,679
Speaker 1: Playing with nukes, that's the problem.

459
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, And then in the end North Vietnam is victorious,

460
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 3: and you know in the Paris peace accords occur anyway.

461
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 1: Right, So nineteen seventy one, at least in the case

462
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: of I want to note, at least in the case

463
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 1: of Giant Lance, thousands and thousands of people did not die.

464
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy one, he support Pakistan as it massacred

465
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: over a million people during what was called the Bangladesh

466
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:11,400
Speaker 1: Liberation War. He also joked about the massacre of Bengali

467
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: Hindus and he sneered at Americans who quote bleed for

468
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 1: the dying Bengalis. That's according to professor Gary Bass, who

469
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: was writing in Political magazine about this. Bass also says

470
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 1: that Kissinger's policy was again oriented towards what he saw

471
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 1: as the greater good. Pakistan, he might say, has some imperfections,

472
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: including you know, massacring millions of people, but it's also

473
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 1: not communists, and it's good to have that chess piece

474
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 1: in play to prevent the spread of communism.

475
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 3: Now, remember he's working closely with Richard Nixon during a

476
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 3: lot of this stuff, and he ends up being one

477
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 3: of the primary reasons that Nixon begins wiretapping everybody and

478
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 3: recording everybody, and he ends up being a part of Watergate,

479
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 3: or he's involved at least, but we can leave that

480
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 3: for perhaps another episode. You should just know that he

481
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 3: was involved in Watergate and wiretapping.

482
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, that definitely happened. He also aided Indonesia under

483
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: the brutal dictatorship of Suharto in terms of financial aid

484
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: and military funding. In seventy three, he overthrew the democratically

485
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 1: elected Salvador Ayinde and Chile, installing the dictator Augusto Pinochet.

486
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, and remember he didn't do it with his bare

487
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 3: hands like that. But man, that guy made it happen

488
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 3: through you know, I guess engineering is a good way

489
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 3: to put it in. He made it occur with his voice.

490
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 1: Right, He puppeteered it. Yes, So he also supported Operation Condor.

491
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 1: Operation Condor was a campaign designed to get the secret

492
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 1: police of fascist dictators in South America to work together,

493
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 1: supporting coups on non fascist countries and facilitating drug dealing

494
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 1: in the region.

495
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 3: As a way to provide funds for these kinds of activities.

496
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: He was a fan of Pinochet because he was not

497
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 1: a communist, and he was also a fan of the

498
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 1: Junta in Argentina at the time. We also found, according

499
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 1: to documents that were released in twenty fourteen, that he

500
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 1: signaled in the nineteen seventies to Argentina's right wing military

501
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 1: leaders something along the lines of, Hey, you know, dissent

502
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: is just a real pill, isn't it. Guys? If you

503
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: need to crack down on those commies and those pinkos

504
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 1: and those hippies, you know, we don't really have a

505
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 1: problem with that. We just want you to know we

506
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 1: don't have a problem with it, and that became implicit

507
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 1: support of what is called the Dirty War. The dirty

508
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 1: war resulted in the deaths of more than thirty thousand people.

509
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 3: And one of the craziest things about those documents that

510
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 3: you mentioned, Ben, that were released in twenty fourteen is

511
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 3: that there are accounts from several people, one of whom

512
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 3: was Robert Hill, who was the ambassador to Argentina, and

513
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 3: it's this conversation that Kissinger had with a foreign minister

514
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 3: there named Gazetti. And Okay, so apparently this foreign minister

515
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 3: was really afraid that if they were doing this dirty war,

516
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 3: they were going to carry this stuff out and they

517
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 3: were going to continue doing it. They were afraid that

518
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 3: the United States would end up cracking down on their

519
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 3: activities and their government in general as a way of

520
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 3: fighting against these human rights violations that were occurring. Right,

521
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 3: and then Kissinger says to him, I mean, this is paraphrasing,

522
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 3: but you don't need to worry about that. That's not

523
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 3: going to happen.

524
00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 1: Right. So it is maybe a little bit hyperbolic, but

525
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 1: it was a breakfast that resulted in the death of

526
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: thirty thousand people, But it wasn't really they were going

527
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 1: to They were probably going to make the dirty war

528
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 1: happen anyway, Kissinger in this case knew about it and

529
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,959
Speaker 1: did not stop it and gave them sort of an

530
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: atta boy. Yeah, and let's go to one more example.

531
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 1: In December of nineteen seventy five, he approved the Indonesian

532
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 1: invasion of East Timor, resulting in one hundred thousand to

533
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: one hundred and eighty deaths conflict related deaths. And conflict

534
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 1: related death could be anything from starvation or disease related

535
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 1: to the horrors of war. What we're saying is it

536
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be an actual you know, gunshot to

537
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 1: the head or death by bombing. War brings death in

538
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 1: many forms. Let's put that in perspective. So we said

539
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: one hundred to one hundred and eighty thousand people died

540
00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: in conflict related deaths. One hundred thousand people were forced

541
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 1: to relocate. Maybe not the biggest number until you consider

542
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: the total population of the country at the time.

543
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, only six hundred and eighty two thousand human beings.

544
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 3: So that's over half of the people were relocated. And

545
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 3: add on to that the number of people who died.

546
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 3: That's a that's a rough move there.

547
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 1: This taally of massive death that has been indirectly attributed

548
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: to Kissinger. Seems it seems like quite a tab to

549
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 1: add up over time, you know what I mean. Yeah,

550
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: and again, there are a lot of people who would say,

551
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 1: now hold on and we'll get to them after a

552
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: word from our sponsor.

553
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 3: Now hold on, It's fair to say, hey, government's a

554
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 3: big and we need to avoid the lazy fallacy of

555
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 3: blame in all these events on a single man. He

556
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 3: might have had his hands tied, he might have not

557
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 3: been aware that this was all happening at all. Right, right,

558
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 3: you know it is true. We have been pretty rough

559
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 3: on Kissinger already, saying that he engineered all these things,

560
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 3: basically blaming him for all these deaths. I don't know,

561
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:19,879
Speaker 3: maybe that really isn't all that fair.

562
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe here's the problem, Matt. Experts, including people

563
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: who applaud Kissinger's actions, disagree with the idea that he

564
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 1: was unaware of these things. Christopher Hitchens, he was recognized

565
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: for a number of other things. He's polemical, he was

566
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:42,319
Speaker 1: at his time a huge proponent of atheism and so on. Right,

567
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 1: that may be one of the ways he's best known today.

568
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 3: Sure, I'm quite hilarious in his digs of other people. Yeah, cantankerous, Yeah,

569
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 3: and also hated or loved essentially.

570
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, he had no chill. There you go, Chris

571
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 1: for Hitchens had no chill one way or the other.

572
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 1: He wrote a book called The Trial of Hydry Kissinger,

573
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,720
Speaker 1: and in this book he says the degree of micromanagement

574
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 1: revealed in Kissinger's memoirs forbids the idea that anything of

575
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 1: importance took place without his knowledge or permission of nothing.

576
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 1: Is this more true than his own individual involvement in

577
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 1: the bombing of Neutral Cambodia. And then so that's one

578
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 1: of the many arguments in full disclosure. Hitchins is not

579
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,800
Speaker 1: a fan of Kissinger, and it's pretty it's pretty obvious

580
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 1: in the way he writes about him. But even people

581
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: who are like, you know, got to break a few

582
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:41,280
Speaker 1: eggs and sow jill political outlets work, even they will

583
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 1: say that Kissinger did this. It didn't just happen when

584
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 1: he was off on vacation on a Friday. According to

585
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,320
Speaker 1: a guy named Greg Grandon, who's a professor of history

586
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 1: at New York University, this means that quote a back

587
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:58,320
Speaker 1: of the envelope count would attribute Tree maybe four million

588
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,760
Speaker 1: deaths to Kissinger's actions, but that number probably undercounts his victims.

589
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 3: Yikes. Yeah, that's a history a history professor at New

590
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 3: York University saying that you should probably attribute three or

591
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 3: four million deaths to this man.

592
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 1: And this doesn't even touch on the conspiracy theories.

593
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,959
Speaker 3: Oh no, my god. Again, when you are a part

594
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 3: of all of these different organizations, when you're essentially the

595
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 3: power behind a government, or at least you know, if

596
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 3: it's a Disney movie, he's who are I forget all

597
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 3: the main like ja'far type characters, but the counselor that

598
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 3: sits next to the king, that whispers dark things into

599
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 3: the king or queen's ear. I mean, that's essentially that's

600
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 3: that's really whittling it down. But that's a lot of

601
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 3: what he ends up doing, whispering to other people in

602
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 3: power who make the decisions. I think when you have

603
00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 3: that position, you are going to be at least targeted

604
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 3: by people who see conspiracies, if not actually taking part

605
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 3: in conspiracies.

606
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 1: Absolutely, well well said and well put. So as as

607
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,359
Speaker 1: you mentioned, this is due to his membership in these

608
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 1: enormously influential bodies. He's a member of the Bohemian Growth,

609
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 1: a member of the Council on Foreign Relations, a member

610
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,240
Speaker 1: of the Builderberg Group, a member of the Aspen Institute,

611
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: a participant in the Trilateral Commission. We have episodes on

612
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 1: pretty much all of those, except, I believe, the Aspen Institute.

613
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 1: We also need to mention that the racist and anti

614
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 1: Semitic conspiracy theories come into play here too. They harp

615
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 1: on Kissinger due to his Jewish background, and then you'll

616
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,840
Speaker 1: read these sorts of things saying that he is a

617
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 1: key player in some sort of secretive Jewish cabal. This

618
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 1: gets tied into those allegations of international banking cartels and

619
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 1: so on. But while the Jewish conspiracy clap trap has

620
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,319
Speaker 1: been thoroughly and thing thankfully debunked, there is bad news here.

621
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: The bad news is that banking cartel conspiracies do have

622
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 1: sand Some of them are very very, very true, and

623
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 1: it is highly likely that Henry Kissinger ran into something

624
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,320
Speaker 1: like banking led conspiracies during his career.

625
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 3: I mean, he did want to be an accountant.

626
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,399
Speaker 1: Oh wow, I didn't even think about that. I didn't

627
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 1: think we would have one that goes into one that

628
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 1: hinges on his accounting past. I mean, that's a very

629
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:36,280
Speaker 1: good point. Met So he has been both a participant

630
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 1: in genuine conspiracies and subject to speculation on other conspiracy theories. Right,

631
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 1: And for a lot of people, the big question is,

632
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:52,879
Speaker 1: at what point do these policies become war crimes, the

633
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 1: conspiracies that he created and enacted. At what point do

634
00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 1: they go beyond being secretive for the purpose of national

635
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 1: security and become something that you should prosecute someone for?

636
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,760
Speaker 3: And what really is the difference between those two things?

637
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: Right? Where is the line? Where is the line? There's

638
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 1: a guy named Mario del Pero, a professor of international

639
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 1: history and author of the Eccentric Realist Henry Kissinger in

640
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 1: the Shaping of American Foreign Policy, he reacts in a

641
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 1: different way. He throws a little cold water on this.

642
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 1: He says, I am afraid that, by the standards some

643
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 1: of his critics have applied to Kissinger, numerous post nineteen

644
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 1: forty five US statesmen could be accused of crimes against humanity,

645
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 1: and that applies perhaps to the vast majority of the

646
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 1: leader's modern great powers. Very good point, right, Like, at

647
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 1: some point, if you're in charge of a country, are

648
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,399
Speaker 1: you responsible for every bad thing that country does.

649
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,800
Speaker 3: Oh gosh, it's true. That's kind of a tough truth.

650
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 3: I guess we have to face a little bit.

651
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 1: Here, right, Absolutely, we have to face he said head on.

652
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,720
Speaker 1: Let's also let's also continue just a little bit, because

653
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 1: del Pero doesn't believe that Henry Kissinger was very good

654
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 1: at his job. To be honest, he says, he's not

655
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: some sort of arch manipulator. He says Kissinger was simplistic,

656
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 1: binary even uninformed. During his tenure. He was dogmatic, he

657
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 1: adhered to the zero sum game of international politics. And

658
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 1: then del Pero says, in short, he wasn't a war criminal.

659
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 1: He wasn't a very deep or sophisticated thinker. He rarely

660
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 1: challenged the intellectual vogues or fads of the time, and

661
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 1: once in government, he displayed a certain intellectual laziness.

662
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 3: Wow, that's interesting.

663
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,360
Speaker 1: It's an interesting take, right, that's saying, that's saying. Look,

664
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 1: the argument here is almost like if he's a war criminal,

665
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 1: everyone else is. And also the hype's not real. He

666
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 1: wasn't that good at what he did.

667
00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, he wasn't as big a part of any of this.

668
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 3: It's I wonder about the motivation there because it's certainly

669
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 3: not a view that is or it's not a view

670
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 3: of Kissinger that you see very often. Right again, we

671
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:16,280
Speaker 3: kind of laid it out at the top there. He's

672
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 3: a lot of times seen as this war criminal or

673
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 3: you know, a hero and just being a lazy government

674
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:28,479
Speaker 3: guy that's just sitting around not doing much, being uninformed. Yeah,

675
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 3: you don't hear that very often. I was thinking about

676
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:35,879
Speaker 3: the twenty sixteen Democratic debates, just really quick off side here. Yeah,

677
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,919
Speaker 3: it was when oh, I hope I'm not getting this wrong.

678
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 3: I believe it was Hillary Clinton. And at least it

679
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 3: was a discussion between the moderator, Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders,

680
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 3: and they were discussing Henry Kissinger, okay, and Hillary Clinton

681
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 3: was a supporter of Kissinger, and at some point it's

682
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,839
Speaker 3: brought up that yes, she said, yes, I will take

683
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 3: the advice essentially or the counsel of Henry Kissinger. You know,

684
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 3: I believe him to be very informed in you know,

685
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 3: his opinion I value essentially. And then Bernie Sanders said

686
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:16,279
Speaker 3: the opposite, like no, absolutely, and laid out some of

687
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 3: the war crimes things, at least in very very brief ways,

688
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,399
Speaker 3: and just said no, I absolutely won't take advice from

689
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 3: this person. And they had a really fairly, fairly brief

690
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:32,319
Speaker 3: but interesting exchange about him on the stage at a

691
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:33,399
Speaker 3: debate like that.

692
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:41,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, Kissinger is seen as a tutor of Henry Clinton. Yeah,

693
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 1: which I think would surprise some people who are more

694
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 1: on the conservative side. Yeah, because you know you as so,

695
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 1: politics suffers from that false dichotomy here in the US,

696
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 1: and people would say, Okay, this guy did a bunch

697
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 1: of stuff under the Richard Nixon administration, So why is

698
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:08,720
Speaker 1: he advising why is he a counselor to Hillary Clinton?

699
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 1: And this is a point where you know, you have

700
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:17,319
Speaker 1: to ask yourself fingers on a hand, right, Yeah.

701
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:21,839
Speaker 3: Well, and Hillary Clinton also makes a very rational point here,

702
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 3: which is this, this man has such a wealth of

703
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 3: experience in dealing with foreign powers as well as the

704
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:32,800
Speaker 3: United States as a power. Why would you not listen

705
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 3: to him? Just from an experience perspective?

706
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 1: I mean, that does seem like a rational point. The

707
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 1: question then becomes one of not just experience, but of

708
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 1: accomplishment success or lack thereof.

709
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 3: Short and alignment, and like, are you going to align

710
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 3: yourselves with that kind of power? I guess if you're

711
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 3: running for something like the office or president anyway, just

712
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 3: wanted to throw that out there.

713
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 1: Sure right now, regardless again of what we may or

714
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 1: may not think about Henry Kissinger as individuals. Judges from Argentina, Chile, France,

715
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 1: and Spain are still seeking his testimony regarding crimes committed

716
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:15,320
Speaker 1: by US client regimes in South America in the nineteen seventies.

717
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:19,880
Speaker 1: Those US backed dictatorships were mentioned earlier. When he was

718
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 1: in London in April of two thousand and one, British

719
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:26,279
Speaker 1: activists sought his arrest on charges related to the Vietnam War.

720
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:28,759
Speaker 1: Even in the US, he was the subject of a

721
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 1: civil suit, but by the family of a Chilean military

722
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:34,799
Speaker 1: chief murdered in the seventies as part of the US

723
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 1: attempt to block the election of Salvadora. In day now,

724
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:43,439
Speaker 1: some people doubtlessly see the criticism of Henry Kissinger as

725
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 1: unfounded or even offensive, and calling somewhat a war criminal

726
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 1: is a very heavy charge. It's a term that's actually

727
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 1: rarely used today in political discourse because hauling someone a

728
00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 1: war criminal automatically implies that they have killed massive amounts

729
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: of people through either their direct actions or their policy decisions.

730
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, because then it becomes an argument of is

731
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 3: that a war crime? Even though they killed all these people,

732
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 3: is that a war crime? Did they do it in

733
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:16,240
Speaker 3: a way that would constitute.

734
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 1: That right exactly? And we have tons of international law

735
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 1: on that very subject. However, it is true that Kissinger

736
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 1: simply cannot travel to certain countries for fear of arrest,

737
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,719
Speaker 1: and this is also something in which he is not

738
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: unique amongst various former politicians and bureaucrats. As we record

739
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:42,879
Speaker 1: today's episode, Henry Kissinger is alive. He is ninety seven

740
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 1: years old. He will likely never be prosecuted for his actions,

741
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 1: and some argue that he should not be, as the

742
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:53,760
Speaker 1: US is historically opposed to any sort of international legal

743
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:59,279
Speaker 1: action against serving or former US politicians. Where this is

744
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,719
Speaker 1: where something called the American Service Members Protection Act of

745
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 1: two thousand and two comes into play. It Essentially, it's

746
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,840
Speaker 1: a law that might be hilarious or terrifying to some

747
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: of us listening outside of the US. It's a law

748
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 1: in the United States that authorizes the use of military

749
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:19,919
Speaker 1: force to liberate any American or citizen of a US

750
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: allied country being held in the International Criminal Court that's

751
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 1: located in the Hague. This has been called the Hague

752
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 1: invasion clause. People in Europe, particularly in the Netherlands, obviously

753
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 1: hate this idea. The law provides for the withdrawal of

754
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 1: US military assistants from countries that agree with the ICC treaty.

755
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 1: It restricts US participation in UN peacekeeping unless the US

756
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:50,800
Speaker 1: is immune from prosecution. And there's a provision that says

757
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 1: the President can change his or her mind on this

758
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 1: whenever due to national interest.

759
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 3: Wow wow.

760
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 1: So, if, for instance, Paul's dodgy international past catches up

761
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:07,279
Speaker 1: with him and he is arrested and taken to the

762
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 1: International Criminal Court, the US has law in the books

763
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:14,400
Speaker 1: that says this country can send an invasion force to

764
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 1: physically rescue him and extricate him from Europe.

765
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:23,760
Speaker 3: Wow. Well, Paul, whatever you did, you know, I'm sure

766
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:28,319
Speaker 3: it's a much more three dimensional thing that occurred. There

767
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 3: are reasons behind it, the reasons you did it. But

768
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 3: you know, in the end, we're gonna get you back, buddy.

769
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 1: And that also is a terrible example, because Paul is

770
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 1: a hero. He is, and he is known as a

771
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 1: gem domestically and abroad. But one thing is for sure,

772
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:54,279
Speaker 1: Henry Kissinger did conspire to do numerous things that were

773
00:47:54,320 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: at the very very least unethical dirty pool. He actively proved,

774
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 1: created and participated in a number of conspiracies to advance

775
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 1: what he saw as the greater good for the US

776
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:12,720
Speaker 1: on a global stage. That is true. It's not a theory,

777
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 1: that's not a person's opinion. That is a fact. The

778
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 1: big question is was it all worth it?

779
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 3: Well, we were gonna, I guess, figure that out in

780
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 3: the next hundred years, just really looking back at it,

781
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:34,840
Speaker 3: I think, and generally when someone passes, I think the

782
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:38,840
Speaker 3: the harsh realities of a person's life can be viewed

783
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:43,280
Speaker 3: I guess more fully at least by society, by history,

784
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 3: and we can actually talk about it in a way

785
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 3: that we couldn't when they were still living. So I

786
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:54,280
Speaker 3: have a feeling, you know, unfortunately for Henry Kissinger, probably

787
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 3: pretty soon he won't be with us, and maybe we'll

788
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 3: get a little more light shed on exactly what happened.

789
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 1: Perhaps perhaps perhaps.

790
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:07,799
Speaker 3: Or it'll go to the grave with him, maybe.

791
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:09,719
Speaker 1: Or it will go to the grave. We want to

792
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,760
Speaker 1: know what you think. Is it true that these sorts

793
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 1: of things occur and do serve a greater good? Or

794
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 1: is that an oversimplification, you know what I mean. Was

795
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:28,320
Speaker 1: Kissinger making the best, if harsh political decisions for the time,

796
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:32,359
Speaker 1: or was he blinded by ideology or something else? Let

797
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 1: us know. You can find us on Facebook, you can

798
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 1: find us on Instagram, you can find us on Twitter.

799
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 1: We especially enjoy shouting out Here's where it Gets Crazy,

800
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 1: which is run by some of the best mods in

801
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 1: the business. We also, by the way, oh someone a

802
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:52,720
Speaker 1: happy birthday, pretty related by a Happy birthday Cat. Happy

803
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 1: birthday Cat, Happy birthday Cat. Your birthday was a little

804
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:01,400
Speaker 1: while ago, but we god round to getting the shout

805
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:02,919
Speaker 1: out there sort of better late than ever.

806
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:05,319
Speaker 3: Yes, happy birthday to you, Kat. And if you want

807
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 3: to call in, you might get on the show. If

808
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:09,880
Speaker 3: you have a suggestion, anything, you want to tell us

809
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,879
Speaker 3: a comment about this episode or another, you can give

810
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:17,839
Speaker 3: us a call. We are one eight three three std WYTK.

811
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 3: You got three minutes. You'll hear Ben. You'll feel safe.

812
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 3: Oh well, maybe maybe you'll feel safe.

813
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 4: I don't know.

814
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:25,319
Speaker 3: It's a little it's a little creepy, but it's just

815
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:26,279
Speaker 3: the way we roll here.

816
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 1: That's just the way we roll. And if you do

817
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:32,240
Speaker 1: not care for phones, if you are averse to social media,

818
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 1: but you still have some insight, something awigh in on,

819
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:38,840
Speaker 1: or a suggestion for topic you believe your fellow listeners

820
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 1: will enjoy. We'd still love to hear from you. We

821
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 1: have good news. You can send us a good old

822
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:43,760
Speaker 1: fashioned email.

823
00:50:43,880 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 3: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. Stuff they don't

824
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 3: want you to know. Is a production of iHeartRadio. For

825
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 3: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

826
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:15,160
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