1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:03,600 Speaker 1: Body dives. But Joseph's gotten. 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 2: More because many of my friends know I love the beach. 3 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 2: That has not always been the case though. As a 4 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 2: matter of fact, for many years, I did not want 5 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 2: to go to the beach. I couldn't stand it. I'd 6 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 2: prefer always to go to the mountains, particularly the Blue Ridge. 7 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 2: But something changed in me. I took an academic appointment 8 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 2: in the Blue Ridge Mountains for a decade, and you 9 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 2: get up every morning and it's like, yep, there's the 10 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 2: Blue Ridge Mountains. And then you drive in the ice 11 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:48,319 Speaker 2: and the snow. For a while, you get blocked out 12 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 2: in your driveway. You can't get in. It takes forever 13 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 2: to get somewhere, and that's with no traffic. And one 14 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 2: day we decided to as a family that we would 15 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 2: start going to the beach. And now I can't get enough. 16 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:06,839 Speaker 2: I always tell Kimmy and my wife. I always say, 17 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 2: someday I want to be that old guy with a 18 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 2: brown leathered skin, with the long white hair and the 19 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 2: long white beard, riding a three wheel bicycle which I 20 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 2: guess is a tricycle with a basket on the back, 21 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 2: and have people drive by and say, hey guy, I 22 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 2: bet he's got a story. But you know, sometimes when 23 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 2: you go to the beach, you can find peace there. 24 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 2: You can listen to the wind blow and you can 25 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 2: feel like kiss your skin along with the sunshine. I 26 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 2: don't even mind the sand too much anymore. And what 27 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 2: I really enjoy is walking on the beach endlessly because 28 00:01:56,040 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 2: you never know what you're gonna find. But sometimes, just 29 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 2: sometimes you come across something that you can't quite make 30 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 2: heads or tails of. Something like that happened a few 31 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 2: years back, and as it turns out, has happened several 32 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 2: times since. A person wandering down the beach they see 33 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 2: a shoe with a sock in it, and contained within 34 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 2: that sock or the skeletal remains of a human foot. Today, 35 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 2: we finally have an identification, thanks to our friends at 36 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 2: author on a case that has been dragging out for. 37 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: Years and years. We're going to talk about that case today. 38 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 2: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks. 39 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 1: Dave. 40 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 2: You want to know something I don't know that I've 41 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 2: ever told you this. 42 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 3: Am I going to have to take an oath? 43 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 2: And no, no, no, it's rather benign and sure that 44 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 2: people on earth. 45 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 3: Is such a nice guy that people, people in. 46 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 2: The sound of our voice right now are probably going 47 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 2: to giggle about this, This old gray haired man admitting 48 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 2: to this as many times now as I've been to 49 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 2: the beach and walked up and down that beach with 50 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 2: my precious grandchildren, particularly Harper, my four year old granddaughter, 51 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 2: who just she she can't hurry up along the beach. 52 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 2: She always pauses to look at everything. And I would 53 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 2: have thought that I would have found one by Do 54 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 2: you know that I have never found an intact sand dollar, 55 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 2: And it's one of those goals that I have in life. 56 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 2: I want to find a sand dollar. The ones I 57 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 2: always find are like busted up and fractured and you know, 58 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 2: particulated all over the place. And it's like I came 59 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 2: across one one day that was literally cut into I 60 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 2: swear it's like it's like the fates were laughing at me. 61 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 2: It's like I came across the thing and it was 62 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 2: cracked into like eight pieces, and each piece was pie shaped. 63 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 2: What's what's the odds of that kind of symmetry in nature? 64 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 2: The randomness of that? How are the waves going to 65 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 2: strike it? You know, literally breaking break into little triangles 66 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 2: like that? It's like the fates were shaking their fist 67 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 2: at me. I've never found one of those. Oh and 68 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 2: another thing I've never found is actually a four leaf clover. 69 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 2: I've always wanted to I don't have the patience for that, though, 70 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 2: sand Dollar. I think that that's an achievable feat. Now 71 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 2: hopefully someday I will. That wasn't a joke, by the way. 72 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 2: I didn't mean to say feet there, but well that's 73 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 2: f e a t and not fee t. 74 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, kind of correct spelling for you. But all right. 75 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 3: One thing I do know is I know where you 76 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 3: like to go, Yeah, to the beach, and you're the 77 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 3: chances of you finding a sand dollar on the beach 78 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 3: where you go minimum slim and nun. Yeah, but I 79 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 3: can show you where to go get them in the 80 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 3: Gulf yeah of America now yeah, Yeah, you got to 81 00:04:58,520 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 3: go off Sterre a little bit. 82 00:04:59,640 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 2: Yeah. 83 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 3: And the thing is they're alive. They'll they'll you'll burn 84 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:04,919 Speaker 3: your fingers or to feel like they're burned when you 85 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 3: and you'll get on as many as you want, no kid, serious, really, Yeah, 86 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 3: and you bring up back and dry them out. This 87 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 3: was one of those scary stories. If you remember where 88 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 3: there were all the stories about shoes floodst on the coast. 89 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, plan on talking about it. Yeah, And listen, I 90 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 2: got to tell you something. This is not this is 91 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 2: not my first time doing this. I actually did when 92 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 2: HLN for those that remember HLN was still a thing. Yeah, 93 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 2: I covered this there. I covered the story two or 94 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 2: three days in a row because there was like a 95 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 2: surge in this. And I'll go ahead. And this is 96 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 2: in the Pacific Northwest. It is surrounding, and this is 97 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 2: kind of interesting. It's right on the border of Washington 98 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 2: State and Vancouver, British Columbia. And there's a large island, 99 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 2: Vancouver Island. And forgive me, I don't mean to talk 100 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 2: down to anybody, but some people have never been there. 101 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 2: Some people have never been up in that region. And 102 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 2: and so yeah. 103 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 3: And lives in Seattle and is begging me to come. 104 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 2: You need to. It's it's it's breathtaking. The beaches are breathtaking. 105 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 2: It's it's it's something otherworldly when you get there. Compare 106 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 2: to us going to the Gulf for all these years, 107 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 2: or to the Atlantic. You get out there, and particularly 108 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 2: in the Northwest, you know, I'm kind of like you 109 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 2: go to California, like southern California. I'm like, you know whatever, 110 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 2: But you get up there in these huge rock formations, 111 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 2: the beautiful forests that run right up to the edge 112 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 2: of the ocean. It is a it's an otherworldly kind 113 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 2: of place. And so just so folks understand, there's a 114 00:06:54,080 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 2: large island called Vancouver Island, and it is an island, Okay, 115 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 2: it's not connected by land, there's not like a land bridge, 116 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 2: but it is immediately adjacent to Vancouver, BC. And it 117 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 2: is surrounded inland by a body of water called the 118 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 2: Saleless Sea. And so it's kind of shaped like a 119 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 2: fish hook. And there's rivers that feed out of Washington 120 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 2: State and out of out of Canada into this sea 121 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 2: in addition to the Pacific you know, rolling through there, 122 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 2: and so there's gigantic salmon runs that go through there. 123 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's beautiful. It's breathtaking. These homes that 124 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 2: for people that can afford them, that live on the 125 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 2: edge up there, and these you know, three story tall 126 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 2: mansion log cabin types places and things like it's it'll 127 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 2: take your breath away. But they do have beaches, Dave, 128 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 2: and over the years, I think and I want to 129 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 2: make sure that I get this right if I'm not mistaken. 130 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 2: From two thousand and seven until the present day, between 131 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 2: British Columbia and Washington State, Dave, there have been twenty 132 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 2: one cases twenty one cases of human feet floating and found. 133 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 2: Those are just the ones that are found, my friend. 134 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 2: And as you can imagine, it catches somebody's attention, you know, 135 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:37,719 Speaker 2: because you're thinking, and it's that specific element of the 136 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 2: human remain And there's some explanation for this. I think 137 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 2: it's thousands and thousands of miles of shoreline, Okay, So 138 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 2: it's populated by tribal peoples that still live in that area. 139 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 2: It's populated by you know, recent by newcomers that have 140 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 2: settled up there. There's probably some old money, you know 141 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 2: type people that are up there as well, that have 142 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 2: been there for several generations. There is a population there, 143 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 2: and so what is it about that population contained in 144 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 2: that one geographic locale that this this feet thing, the 145 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 2: shoe thing has been promulgated. It doesn't hit out of 146 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 2: every story I've covered, And like I said, I did 147 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 2: three three days worth of this on h l N. 148 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 2: I'd never heard of it, and there was like two 149 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 2: or three of these cases that kind of popped on 150 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 2: the radar at the same time. And it was it 151 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 2: was when Susan Hendricks was still there, because it was 152 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 2: she and I that were covering this thing. And I 153 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 2: was like, because in my mind, I'm thinking, you know, 154 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 2: from a forensics perspective in dissecting of human remains, I'm thinking, Okay, 155 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 2: how is this facilitated? How is this facilitated? How is 156 00:09:56,040 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 2: it that out of all of this area that finding feet. Well, 157 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 2: I'll go ahead and kind of lay this out very quickly. 158 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 2: I think that it has something to do with buoyancy 159 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 2: and a particular weak spot in human anatomy. And what 160 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 2: that adds up to is not only an ongoing mystery, 161 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 2: but it also ends up leading to an identification of 162 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 2: a young man that has been missing since two thousand 163 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 2: and seven. Look y'all, I'm not trying to make light, okay, 164 00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 2: of these tragedies, because there's a tragedy associated with every 165 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 2: one of these feet, all right, But it does give 166 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 2: you pause. You would think that there has to be 167 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 2: connective tissue in these stories. And I got to tell you, Dave, 168 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 2: it's actually the connective tissue that comes into play here 169 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:27,079 Speaker 2: in the literal anatomic sense, I think super bizarre. 170 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 3: Are we going to go out on Vancouver Island and 171 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 3: find some ancient tribe out there that has people that 172 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:37,679 Speaker 3: don't have feet they just walk around on stumps all 173 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:41,839 Speaker 3: day long? Because I'm still trying to figure out we've 174 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 3: got feet inside shoes? Okay, And I'm a beach guy. 175 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 3: If I'm walking and I see a pair of nikes, 176 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 3: I'm going to look at them. Until I started reading 177 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 3: these stories and I'm thinking, I'm not going to grab 178 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 3: that because I know there's a foot inside of it, 179 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 3: and I don't know who what happened to the rest 180 00:11:57,760 --> 00:11:59,599 Speaker 3: of the person. Why is there only a foot in 181 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 3: a shoe? 182 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: Joe? 183 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,839 Speaker 2: You know what's really you know what's really creepy about this, brother? 184 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: Is it's not. 185 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:11,559 Speaker 2: I know there's a lot that's creepy. However, the creepiest 186 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 2: element to this is not the foot, and it's not 187 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 2: the shoe. I think to me, one of the creepier 188 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 2: elements is the sock that's hanging out, because you know, it's. 189 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 3: Not that creepy element. 190 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 4: Yea, it is, no, No, no, it is, it's it's no, 191 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 4: It's just what I'm saying is it's kind of foreboding, 192 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 4: all right, because look, how many times in my career 193 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 4: as a death investigator have I driven in some of 194 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 4: the worst parts of Atlanta and in New Orleans, and 195 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 4: I've looked up on power line and I've seen tennis 196 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 4: shoes thrown up over a power line, which is indicative 197 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 4: of many different things. 198 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 2: All right, generally drug dealing in this word, and gang activity, 199 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 2: all of that. You see shoes laying on the ground randomly, 200 00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 2: you know, it's nothing to see a pair of shoes 201 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 2: just laying on the side of the road, Okay, But 202 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 2: when most of the time when you see a shoe, 203 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 2: you do not see a sock hanging out of it. 204 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 2: And so when you think about that, you think, Okay, 205 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 2: I understand the shoe, maybe somebody had just slipped off 206 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,319 Speaker 2: the foot, whatever the case might be. But how did 207 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 2: the sock stay with the shoe? Well, there's got to 208 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 2: be something waiting or anchoring that sock inside of the shoe. 209 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 2: And as it turns out, in most of these cases, 210 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:35,439 Speaker 2: just like with Jeff Sertel, the seventeen year old kid, 211 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 2: I gotta be honest with you, Dave, it was the 212 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 2: skeletal remains of his feet. Now I think more broadly 213 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:49,439 Speaker 2: when we think about the Salish Sea, there's so much 214 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 2: let's see, how can I it's a very hydro dynamic 215 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 2: environment because you've got rivers that are flowing in, you've 216 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 2: got tides that are rising and falling, and of course 217 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 2: that area up there, and you had said that you've 218 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,199 Speaker 2: never been up there. Some of the most brutal storms 219 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 2: that roll in off of sea, Like you know, we 220 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 2: think about brutal storms that happen in the Gulf, most 221 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 2: of those are associated with hurricanes. They really brutal ones. 222 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 2: You can have these storms that kind of sweep in 223 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 2: off of the Atlantic, but most of the time the 224 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 2: winds are blowing out to the east off of there. 225 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 2: So generally if the Atlantic gets slammed, it's going to 226 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 2: be something like a tropical depression. Up there. You can 227 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 2: have these huge storms that just come out of nowhere 228 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,359 Speaker 2: and there's really no circulation to them. They're not cyclonic, 229 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 2: I guess, but they push so much water. And one 230 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 2: of the things that happens is that if there are 231 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 2: human remains that either fall overboard or fall into a river, 232 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 2: come off of a bridge, or I guess maybe you 233 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 2: could say if they're a homicide victim or they committed suicide. 234 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 2: I thought a lot of these might have been suicides. 235 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 2: As the body begins to break down and they have 236 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 2: shoes on. Those shoes, particularly athletic shoes, have a certain 237 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 2: level of buoyancy to them that you know, causes them 238 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 2: to float, and so as they're floating along, you know 239 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 2: they'll wash up on shore and they can support that 240 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 2: weight of those skeletal remains because you know, the the 241 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 2: softer tissues have been greatly diminished. I heard one report 242 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 2: and one I think it was from a forensic anthropologist, 243 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 2: and they wrote this article several years ago, and they 244 00:15:54,880 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 2: they talked about lazy eaters, and that is in reference 245 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 2: to marine mammal or marine animals, not just mammals but 246 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 2: also fish that eat very lazily and they will get 247 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 2: down to the shaft of a bone and they can't 248 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 2: get past the shoe, and they will feast on that part, 249 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, the structural integrity of the 250 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 2: body begins to break down. Then you have decomposition that's 251 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 2: gone along with it. The shoe detaches containing the skelet remains, 252 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 2: and it starts this journey where it's kind of floating. 253 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 2: You know, you think about, you know, one of my 254 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 2: favorite police songs from years and years ago, message in 255 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 2: a bottle. You know, you often think about messages in 256 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 2: a bottle where you write a note, somebody writes a 257 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 2: note and they put a cork in it and throw 258 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 2: it out to sea. You never know where this thing's 259 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 2: going to come up. It's the same principle. It's at 260 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 2: the mercy of these prevailing winds that are driven in 261 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 2: by these really powerful storms, the currents, tides rising and falling. 262 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 2: And I think that if and I urge everybody that's listening, 263 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 2: if you get a chance, go to your map and 264 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 2: look at this area they refer to as the Salish Sea. 265 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 2: It's also part of the Salish Sea. Is also what's 266 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 2: called the I think it's the Georgian Strait is on 267 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:23,199 Speaker 2: the northern part of it, and so it is in 268 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,439 Speaker 2: fact shaped like a fish hook. So once something gets 269 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,119 Speaker 2: in there, it's hard for it to get back out, 270 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 2: and so it just kind of bounces around. There's all 271 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 2: these little islands that kind of populate that area. And 272 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 2: if it runs into a beach, which in the case 273 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 2: of Jeff ster Tel it did. It actually landed on 274 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 2: a beach that was adjacent to a town called Port Angeles, Washington. 275 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:52,880 Speaker 2: And it's kind of on the southern the southern end 276 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 2: of this thing of the Salish Sea, and the beach 277 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 2: is very broad down there. It's kind of your kind 278 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 2: of heading down toward the Seattle area. Well not really, 279 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 2: Seattle's much more further inland, but you're getting down into 280 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 2: a more populated area. This beach is kind of wide 281 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 2: in there, and someone was walking along and they discovered 282 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 2: this foot and they had no idea who it was. 283 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:20,199 Speaker 2: The corner service has no idea who it is. You know, 284 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 2: that was one of the big problems with these Canadian cases. 285 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 2: You know, they would have them come in in Canada 286 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 2: and they turned these things over to their corner service 287 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 2: up in BC, and they had no way of tracking these. 288 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 2: But you know, I got to tell you, Dave, thanks 289 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:42,159 Speaker 2: to you know, our friends at at Athram, this story 290 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 2: has got a very positive outcome. And that's how I 291 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 2: found out about this, because this did not You covered 292 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 2: news more than I do, relative to having daily the 293 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 2: grind that you do. It's amazing, folks. You don't understand 294 00:18:55,800 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 2: what Dave does, uh, he has to read everything. What 295 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 2: I do is it's chicken feet compared to what Dave does. 296 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 2: This didn't, This case did not enter into the national discourse. 297 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 2: It was actually David Middleman, the president and CEO of Authorm. 298 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 2: He actually sent me a text Dave and said, Joe, 299 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 2: I think that you'd be really excited about maybe covering 300 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:25,919 Speaker 2: this case on body backs. And he was right, because 301 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 2: I knew that it plugged right back into the great 302 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 2: foot shoe mystery. 303 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:34,159 Speaker 3: That is a big mystery, though, Joe, think about it 304 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,920 Speaker 3: for just a minute. Here you've got twenty twenty one 305 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 3: feet not matching pairs, by. 306 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 2: The way, you know, no no, no, no, no no. 307 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 3: And so you've got twenty people dead, give or take, 308 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 3: and all that shows up on the shore is a 309 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 3: foot inside of a shoe. Now, look, finding one or two, 310 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 3: maybe even three, I would go with, yeah, I mean 311 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 3: people die out of sea. People die all the time, 312 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 3: it happens, and in that area I could see exactly 313 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 3: what you're explaining for twenty twenty one. 314 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 2: Now, listen, that's all. That's only the ones that have 315 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 2: shown up. 316 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 3: Right now, you have to think, what if we've got 317 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 3: you know what there might be a whole new species 318 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:21,120 Speaker 3: of you know, flounder, and they got shoes down there. 319 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 3: I don't know. 320 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 2: It's so it's so bizarre to think about it because 321 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 2: if in this area, say and listen, you know Jeff 322 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 2: Sirtel is not from America and he's Canadian. This case 323 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 2: he went missing in BC. 324 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 3: I've got kids. 325 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 1: His age. 326 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 3: This is what gets me about him. Okay, yeah, think 327 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:40,360 Speaker 3: he goes missing in two thousand and seven. Just give 328 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:41,959 Speaker 3: you the idea and the reason we're talking about this 329 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 3: one guy in particular, Jeff Cirtel, he goes missing. He's 330 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 3: seventeen years old. And for anybody who's had a teenager 331 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 3: of that age, that's like, this really odd age in 332 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 3: a young person, because you know they've already gone past. 333 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 3: Sixteen is the year you drive. You're still a child, 334 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 3: you've learned to drive. Seventeen, you're you know, getting out 335 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:03,880 Speaker 3: of high school. You're thinking about the future, but you're 336 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 3: still not an adult. But if you feel like you are, 337 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 3: so for Jeffstertel to leave his house on his bike 338 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 3: around midnight, which is what he did, and leaves his 339 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,120 Speaker 3: stuff at home, he leaves his belongings at home, it's 340 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 3: not like he rolled it all up, hopped on his 341 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 3: bike and yeah, joined the circus. Okay, he disappears out 342 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,120 Speaker 3: of character for him. They look for him, can't find 343 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:33,640 Speaker 3: him anywhere, friends, family, police, they search, can't find him. 344 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 3: But then flash forward, and the reason we're giving this 345 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 3: to you now is that you know that on April 346 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 3: twenty ninth, two thousand and seven, at midnight, he leaves 347 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 3: his house. On August fifth, two thousand and nine, we 348 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 3: have the finder of a foot. Now we've already kind 349 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 3: of buried the lead. You know whose foot he found. 350 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:52,879 Speaker 3: But the key is if you've got twenty or twenty 351 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,680 Speaker 3: one feet washing up on shore and that's all you've 352 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 3: got is a foot inside of a sock and his shoe, 353 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 3: how do you identify that foot back to a person, 354 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 3: Because not everybody's DNA is in the system, Not everybody 355 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 3: has any you know, not every fingerprints in the system. 356 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 3: For crying out loud, lord, Now, all you have is 357 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 3: a foot inside a sock, inside of his shoe that 358 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 3: landed on a beach. And hey, what if the finder 359 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 3: is some crazy crackpot you know that's chopping off feet 360 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 3: and doing his thing with them. There are a lot 361 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 3: of things to consider here, Joe. So where do you start. 362 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 2: There is Well, when you're you take it, I like 363 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 2: to describe it as the inverted funnel method, and that's 364 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:43,880 Speaker 2: my coin phrase I use with my students, and it's 365 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 2: a simplistic way for a simple man to explain these 366 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:52,479 Speaker 2: things to students. And the idea is is that you 367 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 2: want to gather as much information as you possibly can 368 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 2: on the front end of an investigation, particularly a death 369 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 2: investigation involving in an unidentify body or a human an 370 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,479 Speaker 2: element of a human remain in this particular case. And 371 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 2: so you start off veryy broadly inverted funnel, okay, and 372 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 2: then you kind of draw it in and narrow that 373 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 2: up till you know, to the top of the smokestack 374 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 2: of the of the funnel, the opening, and very broadly. Really, 375 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,959 Speaker 2: the first person you have to get involved in this 376 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 2: case is going to be an anthropologist. And here's another 377 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 2: thing that they might have working in their favor. The 378 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 2: foot itself. The human foot and the ankle are very complex. 379 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 2: As you well know, you're an athlete, Dave, and so 380 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 2: any injury, you know how complex it is, any kind 381 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 2: of injury, you have to your foot or your ankle, 382 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 2: those structures in there. It's so fragile and so delicate, 383 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 2: but there are a lot of skeletal elements that are 384 00:23:55,840 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 2: contained in the foot, in the ankle. The sock might 385 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,679 Speaker 2: be the answer here because it's almost like having it 386 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:08,439 Speaker 2: in a protected sack, if you will, almost literally and 387 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:12,920 Speaker 2: then contained within the shoe itself, so it's kind of protected. 388 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:14,680 Speaker 2: You would hope that you would be able to hold 389 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 2: on to all of that. The first person you're going 390 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,199 Speaker 2: to want to get involved in this investigation, it's going 391 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 2: to be a forensic anthropologist. As a matter of fact, 392 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,880 Speaker 2: this is how careful I would be with this. If 393 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,879 Speaker 2: this came into my office and I didn't know what 394 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 2: I had. I just had some person, well, I had 395 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 2: an emmy investigator went out to the scene. They said 396 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 2: they looked into the shoe and or looked into the 397 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,439 Speaker 2: sock which was in the shoe, and I saw bony 398 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 2: elements in there. I'd look at everybody and I'd say, Okay, 399 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,439 Speaker 2: we're storing this away, we're not touching it. We're getting 400 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,439 Speaker 2: on the phone to the university, which most of the 401 00:24:55,440 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 2: time is where forensic anthropologists work. Every now and then, 402 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 2: you'll find one that's directly employed by a medical examiner's office. 403 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: But there's. 404 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 2: Most of the time there's not enough work for them 405 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,679 Speaker 2: to work full time. Okay, it's not like we have 406 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 2: skeletons every single day, all right, And I know people 407 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 2: think that we do, and so many of them work 408 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 2: out of universities. But the time to developer always tell 409 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 2: people police in particular, the time to develop a relationship 410 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 2: with a forensic anthropologist is not the day that you 411 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 2: need them. You have to develop that relationship years in advance. 412 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 2: Involve them in things that going around the office, so 413 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,360 Speaker 2: you can pick up the phone and say, hey, look, Doc, 414 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 2: we've got something here that might be of interest, please 415 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 2: come on down, or do you want one of us 416 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 2: to bring it to your lab? And I've had to 417 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:51,120 Speaker 2: do both. I've had to take human remains, skeletal remains 418 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 2: to you well to LSU in the early days of 419 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,239 Speaker 2: my career, because we had a great forensic anthropology. By 420 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 2: the way, shout out to Mary Manhunt if you get 421 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 2: a chance. She's known as the Bone Lady and has 422 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 2: written a series of books. He's one of my oldest 423 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:12,439 Speaker 2: and dearest friends and she founder the Faces Lab. At 424 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 2: LSU that were the first group of people to digitize 425 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,439 Speaker 2: a human skull at any rate. I would go to 426 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 2: her lab many times and take specimens there, and we've 427 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 2: been on digs together. But the reason this is so 428 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 2: important is that they have a method to examination that 429 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 2: is different than what a forensic anthropologist does. Okay, they 430 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,719 Speaker 2: can look at bones in a way that you and 431 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 2: I cannot even begin to consider them. They're going to 432 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 2: look at them from the perspective of where. And when 433 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:52,120 Speaker 2: I say where, there's two types of where. We've got 434 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,919 Speaker 2: where that is post mortem, like weathered bone or bone 435 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 2: that and here's a very specific thing. Bone that comes 436 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 2: out of an aquatic environment looks completely different. If you 437 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:08,360 Speaker 2: had two feet in this case, that one was floating 438 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:13,920 Speaker 2: in a saltwater environment. Let that sink in and no 439 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 2: pun intended, and you have an equally sized you know, 440 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 2: structure of a foot, skeletal remains of foot, and you 441 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:29,640 Speaker 2: left it on dry land. Okay, those two, those two 442 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 2: collections of skeletal elements are going to look completely different. 443 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 2: You say, Morgan's kind of obvious. You're damn right, it's obvious. 444 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:43,400 Speaker 2: Because salt water. Saltwater impacts bone differently. So the big 445 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 2: thing about it is when you when you show up 446 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 2: and you have a foot of all things that appears, 447 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,360 Speaker 2: you know, just kind of manifest itself out of nowhere. 448 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,360 Speaker 2: You're going to want the best set of eyes on 449 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 2: this thing. So you call in a forensic anthropologist and 450 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 2: you carefully, carefully extricate everything from the inside the shoe 451 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 2: as they are witnessing it, or you allow them to 452 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 2: do it. Now you have the forensic pathologists stand by. 453 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:16,640 Speaker 2: But I don't know what a forensic forensic pathologist could 454 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 2: add to the discussion, because even let's just let's just 455 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 2: go go out on a limb here and say that 456 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 2: this is an over the top case of dismemberment, all right, Well, 457 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,159 Speaker 2: a forensic pathologist and their knowledge is not going to 458 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 2: trump a forensic anthropologist with saw marks on bone. They 459 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 2: can't do it. There are people, they're forensic anthropologists that 460 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 2: actually specialize I know two of them off the top 461 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 2: of my head, that specialize in nothing but tool marks 462 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 2: on human bones. That's all they've studied for all lo 463 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 2: these many years and their esteemed careers. That's all that 464 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 2: they've done. And they've even used different types of saws 465 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 2: on bone and so to get the full picture and 466 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 2: try to understand what it takes to take a part 467 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 2: of body. So what I'm the reason I'm saying this 468 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 2: is that you want somebody that is geographically literate to 469 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 2: that area in the Northwest. We've already established that it's 470 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 2: a completely different world. That's why I said otherworldly. It's 471 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 2: an aquatic, saltwater environment. You want somebody that's been around 472 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 2: that with human skeleton remains. You know, as I'm sure 473 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 2: that there are fine forensic anthropologists maybe in Kansas somewhere, 474 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 2: I'm not going to reach out to them as opposed 475 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 2: to the person that works at I don't know, the 476 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 2: University of Western Washington or the University of of you know, 477 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 2: at the University of Washington or you know Vancouver, you know, 478 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 2: one of those universities up there. I'm going to want 479 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,959 Speaker 2: somebody's familiar with that area so they can go in 480 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 2: and then you know, the next big part to this 481 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 2: is trying to understand something about the footwear, because after 482 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 2: you have looked at all of the elements of the 483 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 2: bone that are contained therein you have to be able 484 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 2: to determine, well, how old was this person? Is that 485 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 2: possible with a foot well to a certain degree, it is. 486 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 2: It's possible. Given let's say, if a foot belongs to 487 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 2: somebody that is just post adolescent, maybe they have a 488 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 2: few areas in their bony structures in there that are 489 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 2: not completely fused to the degree that you would say 490 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 2: with a twenty four year old as opposed to a 491 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 2: seventeen year old. You can age them that way. You 492 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 2: can also age them by where. And the other thing 493 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 2: you can look for is there been any previous anti 494 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 2: mortem trauma, like have they ever fracture their ankle? So 495 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 2: you would lay all these bones out and X ray 496 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 2: every one of them, and the forensic anthropology is amazing 497 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 2: because they'll x ray the shoe with a bone inside 498 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 2: of it, with the feet, the elements of the skeletal 499 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 2: elements of the foot. They'll completely x ray that contained 500 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 2: within the shoe. Then they'll take it out and x 501 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 2: ray each individual bit and they'll spread it out. They're 502 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 2: not going to do an X ray for each one, 503 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 2: and then they will take the feet the elements and 504 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 2: put them all back together and look at them. And 505 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 2: that'll give you an idea of, well, the foot that 506 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 2: I have that's in here, does it approximate the size 507 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 2: of the shoe, Like, is this a person with the 508 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 2: size of eight foot that's wearing a ten and a 509 00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 2: half shoe, Then you know something's really a foot. 510 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 1: At that point, who are they? 511 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 2: Well, that's the big thing, isn't it? When it comes 512 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 2: to just or tell, I can't even begin to fathom 513 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 2: the depth of sorrow and the stages of sorrow and 514 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 2: grief that his parents have gone through all of these years, 515 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 2: since two thousand and seven. I can't even seventeen years, man, 516 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 2: I mean, I can't even begin to think about the grief. 517 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 3: He's gone, and he's been gone since then. He was 518 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 3: seventeen when he left. He'll be forever seventeen. But yes, 519 00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 3: his foot is there. But how I mean identifying the foot? No, Look, 520 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 3: I think I understand now. I made a note on 521 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 3: this because the King County Medical Examiner, when the foot 522 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 3: was found, the human foot, they said that the uh, 523 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 3: they say that there the shoe, the black athletic shoe 524 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 3: found on the county beach contained human remains. Why don't 525 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 3: they say foot? And the second part of that is 526 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 3: he actually said that we found a shoe on the 527 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 3: beach that still had a foot with a sock on 528 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 3: it and it detached from the body naturally. Yeah, how 529 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 3: can you say that to him? First of all, that 530 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 3: it did naturally, that it wasn't chopped off, right, And 531 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 3: I think you broke that down pretty good with the 532 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:44,719 Speaker 3: explaining that one. I had a big question about that. 533 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 3: But the other part is we still don't know how 534 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 3: he's dead. I've identified it, but we don't know anything else. 535 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 2: Really, And here's a cold cup of coffee for you 536 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 2: and everybody else. 537 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: We never will know. 538 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 3: Oh, come on, Joe, I really didn't think you had 539 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 3: something of your sleep. 540 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 2: No, I have no magic that that lee heads to 541 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 2: a cause of death. And that's the tragedy with this. 542 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 2: I mean, it's all very tragic. 543 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 3: It's truly identifying knowing that your child is, you know, gone. 544 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 2: Well, well we know they can know, not we. I 545 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 2: don't have a mouse in my pocket. They the parents, 546 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 2: Who's who are the two most important people in this 547 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 2: entire investigation. Okay, they know that he he is deceased, 548 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 2: because you know, it's not like this is some kind 549 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 2: of traumatic event where his foot was traumatically amputated and 550 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,960 Speaker 2: he could be out there somewhere. They're talking about this 551 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 2: as a for lack of a better term, a natural occurrence. 552 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:50,800 Speaker 2: It's it's a it's a natural biological outcome, okay, relative 553 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 2: to decomposition. And what they're saying by this is that 554 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 2: they saw no trauma like either fractures or tool marks 555 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 2: on the bone, so as his body would have been 556 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 2: out there in the Salish sea. That tissue it's really 557 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 2: hard to kind of describe to anybody what it is 558 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 2: like or what the tissue is like. I'll try to 559 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 2: give it to you as best I can. If you like, 560 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 2: if you touch any element of your body, your limbs, 561 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,319 Speaker 2: one of your limbs, okay, near your elbow, or you know, 562 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:34,280 Speaker 2: your knee or even your ankle, there's a certain tension 563 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,320 Speaker 2: that you have in skin. And as we get older, 564 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 2: you know, our skin becomes less tense. You know, you 565 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:41,960 Speaker 2: don't have as much collagen in there, but you can 566 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 2: feel kind of those muscular structures that are beneath the 567 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 2: skin there. It has a tension to it. I have 568 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:57,359 Speaker 2: been around decomposing bodies to the point where and these 569 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,360 Speaker 2: happen for me when I pull bodies out of bodies 570 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,319 Speaker 2: of water, and particularly people that had died in bathtubs 571 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 2: that had decomposed in bathtubs. I've had a number of 572 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 2: those over my career. I have literally gone to remove 573 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:15,239 Speaker 2: a body out of that environment and their skin just 574 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 2: literally pulls off on you know, just it de gloves. 575 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,760 Speaker 2: There's a degloving that takes place. But you can also 576 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,759 Speaker 2: tear the skin to the point where you can see 577 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:34,839 Speaker 2: the bony structures because it's so soft. And to say 578 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:39,319 Speaker 2: that it's spongy is not accurate, because sponges bounce back. 579 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 2: This does not bounce back. It just whatever trauma. And 580 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 2: I don't mean that like in a negative way, but 581 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 2: just the pressure of you touching it traumatizes those remains 582 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 2: to the point where you compromise them, and they will 583 00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:58,800 Speaker 2: after a period of time just kind of pull apart 584 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,840 Speaker 2: at the weak is at the weakest spot, okay, and 585 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:03,880 Speaker 2: the weakest spot is generally going to be the joint. 586 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: Okay. 587 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 2: I think that's one of the reasons his you know, 588 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 2: not just his, but these feet come disarticulated, you know, 589 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:15,319 Speaker 2: at those points, and so the fact that it comes 590 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 2: apart like that. The saving grace here is that he 591 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:24,879 Speaker 2: still had an athletic shoe on and it's described as 592 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 2: black and there's a buoyancy two shoes. You know, I've 593 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 2: got I don't know, a whole closet full of athletic shoes. 594 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 2: I never throw them away. I use them to work 595 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:38,840 Speaker 2: in the yard and those sorts of things that I have. 596 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 2: Some that I just absolutely love to go on my 597 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:42,359 Speaker 2: boat with, you know, I just slip them on and go. 598 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,400 Speaker 2: The one thing about it is, and I have done this, 599 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 2: I can lose my shoe off the side of my 600 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,719 Speaker 2: boat for whatever reason. My grandson actually threw one in 601 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 2: one time and it actually floats on top of the water. Well, 602 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,360 Speaker 2: it has that buoyancy to them. And they're so lightweight 603 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 2: now too. Okay, it's not like an old canvas pair 604 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 2: of you know of Converse tennis shoes or kids tennis 605 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:06,799 Speaker 2: shoes we had to wear when we were kids. You know, 606 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:08,759 Speaker 2: that are going to go right to the bottom. It's 607 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 2: like a slab of rubber with canvas. They're not like 608 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,480 Speaker 2: that anymore. And so that lends itself to the buoyancy. 609 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 2: So you would want to check the size of the shoe. 610 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:23,279 Speaker 2: You know, what size is the shoe, the brand, if 611 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 2: you can still make that out, you know, maybe a 612 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:32,400 Speaker 2: shoe that has a logo, the Nike swoosh or the 613 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 2: fact hibidis. 614 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,759 Speaker 3: If you used all that, Joe, we started off the 615 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:43,040 Speaker 3: top of this with authrom because you're talking about a foot, yeah, 616 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,400 Speaker 3: inside of a sock, inside of a shoe washed on 617 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 3: shore at a beach. And you can't even say it's 618 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:52,759 Speaker 3: a rare occurrence. It's happened twenty times at least that 619 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 3: we know of. Yes, that means there are people who 620 00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:58,719 Speaker 3: are waiting for an answer to a loved one and 621 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:00,839 Speaker 3: this is the closest you're going to to get. And 622 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:02,800 Speaker 3: to be honest with you, if it's the size eleven 623 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,720 Speaker 3: you know foot, how many of us have a size 624 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:08,719 Speaker 3: eleven eleven and a half foot? I mean, where are 625 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 3: you going to start? How does author identify it? How 626 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 3: do you get it down to the point where they 627 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 3: can pick up the phone and say, with one hundred 628 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 3: percent of certainty, we have identified your son and he's gone, 629 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,600 Speaker 3: here's we You know, I don't know that call, but 630 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:26,120 Speaker 3: you know what I mean? How does that know? 631 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 2: No, you're no, No, You're absolutely right. What has to 632 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,239 Speaker 2: have Well, first off, you know the King the King 633 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 2: County Medical Examiner would have to request assistance in a 634 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,839 Speaker 2: case like this, and it gives me pause too when 635 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,239 Speaker 2: I think about this, I think about all these other 636 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:49,759 Speaker 2: feet are we are we right on the cusp of 637 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 2: getting some of these people identified. You know, we talked 638 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:56,440 Speaker 2: about twenty one, right or twenty twenty one? How many? 639 00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:01,560 Speaker 2: How many other of these feet are intact to the 640 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:05,359 Speaker 2: point where you can have bony elements that you can 641 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:12,879 Speaker 2: still go into into the core of that bone and 642 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,479 Speaker 2: extract DNA from it, viable DNA where you can take 643 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:22,080 Speaker 2: it and run it against open source DNA files that 644 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:26,760 Speaker 2: are out there, which of course is what authorm did 645 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:27,759 Speaker 2: in the. 646 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:31,799 Speaker 1: Case of Jeff. That to me is. 647 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:37,399 Speaker 2: Really I think as sad as Jeff's case is. That's 648 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:41,879 Speaker 2: one of the things here that is very exciting when 649 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,200 Speaker 2: you begin to think about that they can create an 650 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:52,200 Speaker 2: entire DNA profile from those elements of Jeff's remains that 651 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:56,880 Speaker 2: are still there. And of course, you know, with with 652 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:08,439 Speaker 2: this caseular like so many others at authorm, the when 653 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:12,080 Speaker 2: the remains were discovered, they really didn't know what to 654 00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,279 Speaker 2: do with them. There's you know, what, what are you 655 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 2: going to hang your hat on here? Well, it all 656 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:26,640 Speaker 2: comes down to crowdfunding, because you know, authorm uses techniques 657 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 2: that I cannot even sit here and begin to explain 658 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:32,480 Speaker 2: to you in the unlimited amount of time that I 659 00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:37,200 Speaker 2: have for one episode. It's stuff that would make Captain 660 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 2: Kirk blush. All right, They are on the cutting edge, 661 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:46,080 Speaker 2: but that requires money. It requires money, and for and 662 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,799 Speaker 2: I'll say this, now, say it again, I'll say it 663 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:54,839 Speaker 2: and until I don't say it anymore. You say out 664 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:58,000 Speaker 2: there that you're citizen detectives. You say that you want 665 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:03,439 Speaker 2: to contribute in some way. This requires nothing more than 666 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 2: you going to visit dnasolves dot com and you can contribute. 667 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,880 Speaker 2: You can find a case that's on there. There are 668 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,879 Speaker 2: a plethora of these cases that are listed. You select one. 669 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,879 Speaker 2: Maybe it's based on geography, maybe you know it's your 670 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:27,120 Speaker 2: state that has a case, or maybe it's somebody that 671 00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,520 Speaker 2: reminds you of maybe one of your loved ones. Maybe 672 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:34,080 Speaker 2: they're the same age or approximate approximately the same age, 673 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:36,560 Speaker 2: and you want to try to help solve this, this 674 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:41,200 Speaker 2: tragic mystery that exists. And they're not asking for tons 675 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,120 Speaker 2: and tons of money, just a couple of bucks. Just 676 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:47,000 Speaker 2: a couple of bucks, it's all it would take. And 677 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:49,839 Speaker 2: you can contribute to this. And they have ceiling that 678 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,720 Speaker 2: they have a minimum that they have to hit, which 679 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,480 Speaker 2: I think is like seven thousand or seven hundred seventy 680 00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,719 Speaker 2: five hundred bucks, And that way they can get the 681 00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:02,480 Speaker 2: wheels rolling on this thing, and they can go into 682 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:06,640 Speaker 2: open source DNA databases that are out there and they 683 00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,399 Speaker 2: can begin to build this thing out along with their 684 00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:13,239 Speaker 2: forensic genetic genealogists that are there on staff that they hire. 685 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:15,399 Speaker 2: I've met these people, I've been to the lab, I've 686 00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:19,799 Speaker 2: seen the work that they do. And you never know, 687 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:25,400 Speaker 2: you you might be. You might be that answer to 688 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,440 Speaker 2: a prayer that's been sent up for years and years 689 00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:35,200 Speaker 2: and years. You know, just like the questions that you know, 690 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:40,080 Speaker 2: Jeff's parents had, what happened to our baby? What happened 691 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,280 Speaker 2: to him? Well, they might not know exactly what happened 692 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:49,520 Speaker 2: to him, but now they do know that he has 693 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:53,720 Speaker 2: passed on, and for whatever that's worth, they can shut 694 00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:56,000 Speaker 2: the door on that part of their life and maybe 695 00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:58,640 Speaker 2: begin to move on with that peace in mind. And 696 00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:02,240 Speaker 2: that's what you Ultimate and Lee would be offering. So again, 697 00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:07,640 Speaker 2: that's dnasolves dot com. I urge each and every one 698 00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:11,239 Speaker 2: of you to go to their website, review it, see 699 00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:17,160 Speaker 2: what you can do anything will help. I'm Joseph Scott 700 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,440 Speaker 2: Morgan and this is body Backs.