1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,480
Speaker 1: Before we begin today's episode, I just want to note

2
00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:07,400
Speaker 1: that this conversation includes discussions around suicide, grief, and mental health.

3
00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:10,600
Speaker 1: Please just take care while listening, and if anything has

4
00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,600
Speaker 1: brought up some heavy or difficult feelings today, reach out

5
00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,599
Speaker 1: to somebody you trust or seek support from a mental

6
00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,960
Speaker 1: health professional or crisis service in your area. As always,

7
00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,279
Speaker 1: we will have links and resources in the description. You

8
00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:25,520
Speaker 1: do not have to go through these hard moments alone,

9
00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:33,600
Speaker 1: so please reach out to somebody that you love. Hello everybody,

10
00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,839
Speaker 1: I'm Jemma Spake and welcome back to the Psychology of

11
00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:41,800
Speaker 1: Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through the biggest changes, moments,

12
00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,120
Speaker 1: and transitions of our twenties and what they mean for

13
00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:54,640
Speaker 1: our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome

14
00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:57,400
Speaker 1: back to the podcast. It is so great to have

15
00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,760
Speaker 1: you here, back for another episode. Today's pisode is a

16
00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:03,040
Speaker 1: really special one because we are joined by someone whose

17
00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:11,280
Speaker 1: work has opened up some incredibly important conversations around mental health, grief, masculinity, vulnerability,

18
00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:15,960
Speaker 1: for if I'm being honest, an entire generation of young people. Today,

19
00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:18,200
Speaker 1: I'm joined by Ben West. You may know him through

20
00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:21,080
Speaker 1: his advocacy work following the loss of his younger brother.

21
00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:23,840
Speaker 1: Since then, he's launched his movement Reasons to Stay, to

22
00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,680
Speaker 1: help guide strangers through difficult times. But beyond that, beyond

23
00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:31,120
Speaker 1: the public work, Ben is also somebody who is deeply thoughtful.

24
00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,759
Speaker 1: He has an amazing perspective on being human, on friendship, purpose,

25
00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:36,760
Speaker 1: pain and hope, and we are so excited to have

26
00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:39,480
Speaker 1: him on. Ben Welcome to the Psychology of your twenties.

27
00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:41,200
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me here. I'm so

28
00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:42,200
Speaker 2: excited for this chat.

29
00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:44,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, and took it. Took you a second to get here.

30
00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:46,639
Speaker 1: You were recording it on a day of a crazy

31
00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:47,440
Speaker 1: t school.

32
00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:51,919
Speaker 2: Transport into London was just no today. And it's funny

33
00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,440
Speaker 2: when you work in mental health, you're constantly talking about

34
00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:57,480
Speaker 2: like coping and relieving stress, and then suddenly all the

35
00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:00,280
Speaker 2: trains are stuck and you're having to practice what you

36
00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:04,280
Speaker 2: preach and try not to get frazzled by yea London transport.

37
00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:04,760
Speaker 2: I'me here.

38
00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:06,760
Speaker 1: You came in, cool, calm and collected.

39
00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:08,799
Speaker 2: Inside, I'm like a duck. Yeah.

40
00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:12,320
Speaker 1: Well, this is the thing that I found since moving

41
00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:15,680
Speaker 1: to London is I've become very angry and I have.

42
00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:18,160
Speaker 2: To really kind things.

43
00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, just the smallest stuff. I'm like, the world is

44
00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:23,080
Speaker 1: a terrible, awful.

45
00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:26,600
Speaker 2: Players and then the weather as well, like it's it's

46
00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:30,560
Speaker 2: always it always all comes together. You've got wind, rain,

47
00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:34,680
Speaker 2: trains are late, someone's someone spills coffee on you. Yeah,

48
00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,360
Speaker 2: and ah, it's really difficult to try and get out

49
00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:38,960
Speaker 2: of that funk. Yeah, and then like.

50
00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,079
Speaker 1: A light is flickering and you're like I just want

51
00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:41,680
Speaker 1: to lay down.

52
00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know what I used to be not

53
00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,240
Speaker 2: to go straight in with the psychology, but I used

54
00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:48,760
Speaker 2: to be really bad at having that happen and then

55
00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:51,359
Speaker 2: immediately writing off the day and getting into a bad mood.

56
00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:52,959
Speaker 2: And it actually came up when I was going through

57
00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:56,440
Speaker 2: therapy like that, like bad days would just take over

58
00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:58,880
Speaker 2: and become bad days. And it was that it was

59
00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:02,560
Speaker 2: that experience that actually I started my first rule I

60
00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:05,400
Speaker 2: have with myself, which is that if it's a bad day,

61
00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:08,800
Speaker 2: you have to do something good. Right, And so it

62
00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:10,679
Speaker 2: was something we came up with in therapy, which was

63
00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,280
Speaker 2: like I always just had as soon as bad things happen,

64
00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:15,480
Speaker 2: I just formed the mindset that it was a bad day,

65
00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:17,200
Speaker 2: and so I have this rule way, you have to

66
00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:21,440
Speaker 2: do something good. So that's something simple like talking to

67
00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,679
Speaker 2: a shopkeeper in the shops, or texting a friend you've

68
00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:27,040
Speaker 2: spoken to in a while, or just doing something good

69
00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,560
Speaker 2: or being happy to see someone. And then as soon

70
00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:31,600
Speaker 2: as you've done that, you've you've taken the power away

71
00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:33,040
Speaker 2: from the bad day. So not to go straight in

72
00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,240
Speaker 2: with the psychology, but this is actually very relevant to

73
00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,880
Speaker 2: something that I It's one of my two important rules

74
00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:39,480
Speaker 2: that I live by.

75
00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:41,800
Speaker 1: Okay, well, I have two follow up questions. Okay, the

76
00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:43,520
Speaker 1: number one is what are you going to do today?

77
00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:45,800
Speaker 2: I haven't decided yet. I feel like this is quite

78
00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:50,880
Speaker 2: a good thing to do. Yeah. No, I think I'm

79
00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:53,520
Speaker 2: going to an event later which will be really good.

80
00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,360
Speaker 2: So I think that will be my good thing for today.

81
00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:58,840
Speaker 2: And that's supporting an amazing charity and it's going to

82
00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:00,720
Speaker 2: be such a lovely evening. So yeah, I feel like

83
00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,440
Speaker 2: that will be my good thing today. But even if

84
00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,280
Speaker 2: it's just literally going into the shops and forcing myself

85
00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:08,440
Speaker 2: to get into shops and then talk actually talk to

86
00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,200
Speaker 2: the person to check out, it always makes the day better.

87
00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:13,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and what's your second rule?

88
00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:15,480
Speaker 2: My second rule is, because of the nature of my job,

89
00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:17,440
Speaker 2: and we'll get into this, I talk to a lot

90
00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:19,919
Speaker 2: of people about some really awful stuff and some My

91
00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:22,920
Speaker 2: other rule is that I'm still thinking about a conversation

92
00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:26,480
Speaker 2: two weeks later, I have to talk to someone about it,

93
00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:28,560
Speaker 2: and I don't give myself the choice because you know,

94
00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:32,160
Speaker 2: some of the conversations I have with people are fairly harrowing,

95
00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:35,800
Speaker 2: and usually I'm quite good at processing that. But yeah,

96
00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:37,800
Speaker 2: if I'm still talking thinking about it, I was thinking

97
00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,560
Speaker 2: about them two weeks later, I have to talk to

98
00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,239
Speaker 2: someone about that conversation, and it just takes my choice away.

99
00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:46,680
Speaker 2: So I know then I'm like, it's been two weeks.

100
00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:48,719
Speaker 2: I need to text my counselor I need to go

101
00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,200
Speaker 2: and book some time in and talk about this. Yeah. Yeah,

102
00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:53,360
Speaker 2: it sort of takes that opportunity to push the can

103
00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:54,560
Speaker 2: down the road away from me.

104
00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:56,320
Speaker 1: I used to have this when I used to do

105
00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,320
Speaker 1: we are going in Oh my God. I used to

106
00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:04,440
Speaker 1: do interviews for the Australian Government on child mail treatment

107
00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:07,600
Speaker 1: and as in like calling people up and being like,

108
00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:11,400
Speaker 1: you know, tell me about what you've been through. And

109
00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:13,919
Speaker 1: I was so young. I wish I had that rule

110
00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:16,080
Speaker 1: because my rule was just like if I had a

111
00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,560
Speaker 1: bad call, I'd go and eat a Kindo bueno. Yes,

112
00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:20,760
Speaker 1: and I think that probably made.

113
00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,040
Speaker 2: Got into a really bad habit classic conditioning.

114
00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:26,720
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. I was just going to say that

115
00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:29,159
Speaker 1: even now, like thinking of it. Yesterday I had a

116
00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:30,839
Speaker 1: bad day and I went and got a Kindo bueno

117
00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:32,880
Speaker 1: and I was like, you cannot go back down this.

118
00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:33,359
Speaker 2: Road, the.

119
00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:42,520
Speaker 1: Texting counselor kind Let's say, I love, I know it's so,

120
00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:48,480
Speaker 1: can you briefly you know what, I did not even

121
00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:49,760
Speaker 1: ask you to introduce yourself.

122
00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:50,560
Speaker 2: We've gone.

123
00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:53,440
Speaker 1: Can you briefly introduce yourself? Tell us a little bit

124
00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,520
Speaker 1: about who you are as a person, how people might

125
00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,000
Speaker 1: know you or they don't know you, who you are.

126
00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:02,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely so. My name's Ben. I am a mental

127
00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:04,960
Speaker 2: health campaigner. The fact that I'm introducing myself as a

128
00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:08,279
Speaker 2: mental health campaign is still weird because it's not something

129
00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,760
Speaker 2: I ever thought i'd have to do. Growing up, I

130
00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,320
Speaker 2: didn't know anything about mental health. No one had ever

131
00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,760
Speaker 2: talked to me about mental health, and the first time

132
00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,320
Speaker 2: it really came up in my life was when my

133
00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:23,320
Speaker 2: mum told me that my little brother Sam had been

134
00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:27,200
Speaker 2: diagnosed with depression. And that was the first time I'd

135
00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,800
Speaker 2: ever really heard what that was. I didn't really know

136
00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,640
Speaker 2: anything more about it, so I never spoke to Sam,

137
00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,960
Speaker 2: and then, very sadly, in January twenty eighteen, Sam took

138
00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,640
Speaker 2: his own life and died at the age of fifteen

139
00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:46,440
Speaker 2: years old and I was seventeen, and obviously, through that experience,

140
00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:50,080
Speaker 2: I very quickly realized that the significance of what my

141
00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:53,760
Speaker 2: mum had told me in September, and also free speaking

142
00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,159
Speaker 2: to my friends and people at school, realized like how

143
00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:00,159
Speaker 2: many people were affected by this sort of thing. And

144
00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,040
Speaker 2: my plan in life at that moment was to go

145
00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:04,880
Speaker 2: to university study engineering and then go to the Armed

146
00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:10,400
Speaker 2: Forces and fly helicopters. So that was very fad and

147
00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,240
Speaker 2: it's not what I'm doing, as you can tell. But

148
00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,240
Speaker 2: I realized very quickly that, you know, what happened to

149
00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,280
Speaker 2: Sam shouldn't have happened, and there were there were small

150
00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,840
Speaker 2: things that could have been different, and it felt like

151
00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:26,600
Speaker 2: I had an opportunity to change those small things for

152
00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,440
Speaker 2: other people and pick up the sort of batton that

153
00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:31,960
Speaker 2: Sam left behind in terms of wanting to create change

154
00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,400
Speaker 2: and do my best. So I'm a mental health campaign

155
00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:36,680
Speaker 2: and now I've been doing this for eight years. People

156
00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:38,880
Speaker 2: will probably if you've heard my name. You've probably heard

157
00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,440
Speaker 2: it in association with my project that I launched this

158
00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:43,920
Speaker 2: year called Reasons to Stay, which I'm sure we'll get

159
00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:47,920
Speaker 2: into more, but essentially it's a suicide prevention project, sending

160
00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,280
Speaker 2: letters to people thinking about suicide, giving them reasons to stay.

161
00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,240
Speaker 2: But you know, my work goes far beyond that. The

162
00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,280
Speaker 2: reason I'm dressed so smartly is I've been working policy,

163
00:07:58,360 --> 00:07:59,640
Speaker 2: so I do a lot of work with the government

164
00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:03,080
Speaker 2: around NHS and healthcare for people with mental health, and

165
00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:07,800
Speaker 2: education and mental health. So basically, mental health is what

166
00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,320
Speaker 2: I live and breathe. It's not something that I ever

167
00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:12,640
Speaker 2: thought i'd go into, but it's something, you know, It

168
00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:15,440
Speaker 2: is everything I do. And you know, every day I

169
00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,360
Speaker 2: think about Sam and what happened to him and my family,

170
00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:23,600
Speaker 2: and I go to work because we absolutely, I absolutely

171
00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,680
Speaker 2: believe that we can change the system that lets so

172
00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:30,040
Speaker 2: many people down. And that's what I'm going to do

173
00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:31,800
Speaker 2: for the rest of my life. That's what I've decided,

174
00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:34,960
Speaker 2: this is all I'm going to do. Wow. Yeah, which

175
00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:36,000
Speaker 2: is a huge thing to say.

176
00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:38,400
Speaker 1: But you had such pride in your eyes when you

177
00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,960
Speaker 1: said that. Yeah, can you tell me a bit about Sam?

178
00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:44,160
Speaker 1: And like some of your memories about him and like

179
00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:45,320
Speaker 1: what kind of what he was like.

180
00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:51,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh, Sam was wonderful. He was very funny and

181
00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:54,880
Speaker 2: sort the sort of humor he had was like he

182
00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,080
Speaker 2: didn't know quite whether you were allowed to laugh. It's

183
00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:03,080
Speaker 2: always just like on the edge of something really dark

184
00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,360
Speaker 2: and awful. He had quite a dark sense humor, but

185
00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:09,000
Speaker 2: it was just so funny. Even his friends, like at school,

186
00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,400
Speaker 2: they always said, is he was such a like class clown.

187
00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,280
Speaker 2: He try and make the whole class laugh. He was

188
00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,480
Speaker 2: very very talented in art and music, so like he

189
00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:22,920
Speaker 2: was fifteen when he was, you know, basically producing the

190
00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:27,199
Speaker 2: whole film scores on his laptop. Loved Hans Zimmer and

191
00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:32,200
Speaker 2: film and film scores and music and film. He was

192
00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:37,440
Speaker 2: also like he painted a lot and just the most

193
00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:41,440
Speaker 2: phenomenal painter. And one of my favorite, yeah, one of

194
00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:45,480
Speaker 2: my favorite memories back then of us is because it

195
00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:48,480
Speaker 2: was me Sam and another brother, Tom, who's my youngest brother,

196
00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:51,720
Speaker 2: and we used to just Sam would do like some

197
00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:53,680
Speaker 2: art and he'd just bring us in on right at

198
00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:57,200
Speaker 2: the end, like help with something, and we were absolutely terrible.

199
00:09:57,280 --> 00:09:59,480
Speaker 2: I'm so jealous of Sam's talent with art because I

200
00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,839
Speaker 2: kind of can't draw. I can't paint. I would love

201
00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,680
Speaker 2: to be able to paint, but I can't. I struggled

202
00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:10,280
Speaker 2: so much with it. He was very, very talented. But

203
00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,400
Speaker 2: I think the big thing with Sam that I like

204
00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:16,199
Speaker 2: means a lot now looking back, is he just had

205
00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:21,160
Speaker 2: he was like an emotional sponge. He just he just

206
00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,440
Speaker 2: absorbed all the emotion around him. He was such an

207
00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:28,120
Speaker 2: EmPATH and he cared so much about other people, and

208
00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:33,120
Speaker 2: he's that sense of like social justice of if someone

209
00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:36,280
Speaker 2: was being picked on or bullied, he would feel, he's

210
00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,400
Speaker 2: so like powerfully that that was unjust, and he'd take

211
00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,560
Speaker 2: a lot of that emotion on, which obviously must have

212
00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:44,920
Speaker 2: been a lot for him to take on his shoulders.

213
00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:47,760
Speaker 2: But he just he just had this really strong sense

214
00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:51,600
Speaker 2: of right and wrong, and he was felt emotions and

215
00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:56,400
Speaker 2: he felt other people's emotions really strongly, which you know

216
00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:58,640
Speaker 2: obviously meant that when he was struggling, he felt very

217
00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:03,640
Speaker 2: passionately about other people feeling seen as well through their struggles.

218
00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:08,880
Speaker 2: And that's sort of why I feel like I want

219
00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,880
Speaker 2: to do what I do now, is because when he

220
00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,000
Speaker 2: was struggling, he wanted other people to feel understood and

221
00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,080
Speaker 2: for things to be better for them, and he never

222
00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,560
Speaker 2: got the chance to sort of do this. And I

223
00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,760
Speaker 2: know that absolutely if Sam had survived, he would have

224
00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:25,080
Speaker 2: gone on to become a mental health campaigner. He'd probably

225
00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:26,960
Speaker 2: be sitting in this chair talking to you. He would

226
00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,200
Speaker 2: have done a phenomenal job. And I always say to people,

227
00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,120
Speaker 2: I'm like, unfortunately, you have got the second best option.

228
00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:35,040
Speaker 2: But I will do my absolute best to sort of

229
00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:37,560
Speaker 2: do what I think Sam would want to do, and

230
00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:41,880
Speaker 2: that is to show up to tell our story, be vulnerable,

231
00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,280
Speaker 2: be honest, make people feel seen, but also, you know,

232
00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:48,360
Speaker 2: push for the change that stops people getting support and

233
00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:53,320
Speaker 2: stops people getting an education. So yeah, I've tried to

234
00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,720
Speaker 2: be better at art and I've tried to be better music,

235
00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:00,400
Speaker 2: but I know that one talent and one one thing

236
00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:04,840
Speaker 2: that me and Sound absolutely share is that absolute social

237
00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:11,400
Speaker 2: justice right and wrong, empathy for people that don't deserve

238
00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,160
Speaker 2: to feel the way they do and not have the

239
00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:17,200
Speaker 2: support that so many people don't have nowadays.

240
00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:19,800
Speaker 1: I feel like, does your younger brother have that as well?

241
00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:20,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, we all do.

242
00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:22,560
Speaker 1: I was going to say, I feel like that would

243
00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:24,640
Speaker 1: be a very strong through line from like your parents.

244
00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:28,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely think so. And they've My parents have

245
00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:30,360
Speaker 2: obviously reacted in a similar way to Sam dying in

246
00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:34,200
Speaker 2: terms of like trying to change, change things and provide support,

247
00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,840
Speaker 2: which a lot of people do when something awful happens.

248
00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:39,160
Speaker 2: And it's nice that we're all sort of on the

249
00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,080
Speaker 2: same page of yeah, that was so bad that we're

250
00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:44,280
Speaker 2: going to make sure it never happens again. We're all

251
00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:45,160
Speaker 2: very aligned on that.

252
00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:49,240
Speaker 1: I saw this interesting thing from Jack Antonoff. Do you

253
00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:53,120
Speaker 1: know who that is? Okay, he's a music producer, not important.

254
00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,240
Speaker 1: He said that when you're experiencing grief is when your

255
00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:02,600
Speaker 1: purpose becomes the clearest because nothing else matters. And that

256
00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,240
Speaker 1: kind of sounds like, what, that's what's happened to you?

257
00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:05,959
Speaker 1: You know? Through that?

258
00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:10,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. I think there's so many reasons why I

259
00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:11,960
Speaker 2: do what I do now, but one of them is

260
00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:17,560
Speaker 2: definitely that it hurts so much that I think pain

261
00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:22,760
Speaker 2: without a meaning is very difficult to cope with because

262
00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,920
Speaker 2: it feels like what is this all for? I mean,

263
00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:29,600
Speaker 2: and it hurts so much, it's still it's still still

264
00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,720
Speaker 2: a horrible, horrible thing to have gone through, and it

265
00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,199
Speaker 2: doesn't make it less painful, but it does make that

266
00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:39,280
Speaker 2: experience feel like it's worth something. And you know, I

267
00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,880
Speaker 2: get the absolute privilege of hearing from people who have

268
00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:48,400
Speaker 2: been materially changed and helped by work that I've been

269
00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:53,079
Speaker 2: involved in or contributed to. And I remember little seventeen

270
00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:55,960
Speaker 2: year old me sat at school with my friends trying

271
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:57,360
Speaker 2: to work out what we were going to do to

272
00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:02,760
Speaker 2: change the world. And over time you realize that actually

273
00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:06,800
Speaker 2: changing the world and creating that much impact in reality

274
00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,560
Speaker 2: happens in really quiet moments with people, and if you

275
00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,960
Speaker 2: can stop one person from taking their own life, or

276
00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,040
Speaker 2: you get the right support to one person, the ripple

277
00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:20,680
Speaker 2: effect of that over time is absolutely enormous. And so

278
00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,080
Speaker 2: you know, like I remember just thinking back now to

279
00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:26,760
Speaker 2: seventeen year old me, not knowing what I was meant

280
00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:28,560
Speaker 2: to do or how I was going to turn this

281
00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:33,000
Speaker 2: awful experience into something that was good. He would not

282
00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:37,360
Speaker 2: believe what we've done over the last eight years. It's

283
00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:42,880
Speaker 2: been the most extraordinary, powerful, meaningful journey. And I can

284
00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:44,680
Speaker 2: say that now with a smile on my face, like

285
00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:49,760
Speaker 2: it has. My story is so sad, but it's got

286
00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:55,000
Speaker 2: to position now where it's a really happy, positive journey,

287
00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:58,880
Speaker 2: and that I didn't believe that was ever possible.

288
00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,840
Speaker 1: So that's oh, that's so pretty. That's so pretty is

289
00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:02,280
Speaker 1: the wrong way?

290
00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,640
Speaker 2: No, it's yeah, I know, And it's only sometimes that

291
00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:11,160
Speaker 2: you actually reflect and go When Sam died, I honestly

292
00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,600
Speaker 2: I didn't think anything good would ever happen to me. Again,

293
00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:16,840
Speaker 2: I don't know how to describe it except that I

294
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:21,160
Speaker 2: just thought my life was always going to be great. Yeah,

295
00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,640
Speaker 2: And I just didn't think anything would be fun or

296
00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:27,840
Speaker 2: funny or positive. And so it's quite profound to be

297
00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:31,160
Speaker 2: able to sit here now and say this is great.

298
00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:35,360
Speaker 2: I love what I do. I feel joy almost every day,

299
00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,440
Speaker 2: and that that's been quite quite the journey to get there.

300
00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:42,360
Speaker 2: But it's very meaningful.

301
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:49,720
Speaker 1: And you know what, I'm sure somebody's listening to this

302
00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:51,960
Speaker 1: right now who's probably in the early stages of grief,

303
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,760
Speaker 1: being like this is always going to be it, And

304
00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:56,640
Speaker 1: I think it's just a really nice thing to hear

305
00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,000
Speaker 1: somebody say that, Even people with like a bit of

306
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:03,680
Speaker 1: anticipatory Greek as well, probably listening being like, oh, yeah,

307
00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:05,680
Speaker 1: can I actually ask you about that a little bit more?

308
00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:10,320
Speaker 1: Like I think you explained it very well, But how

309
00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:15,240
Speaker 1: is your grief changed? Like when you first I'm guessing

310
00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,480
Speaker 1: found out through your mom or through a parent, to

311
00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,640
Speaker 1: that first year to now, like what's been the different

312
00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,720
Speaker 1: things that you've learned throughout the years about loss?

313
00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:31,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean losing Exam was not only awful in

314
00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,800
Speaker 2: terms of the grief of losing a brother that you

315
00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:39,240
Speaker 2: didn't expect obviously, but also through how he died in suicidey.

316
00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:44,000
Speaker 2: It was incredibly traumatic for me particularly, and so actually

317
00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,600
Speaker 2: at the beginning, it's very difficult to determine like what

318
00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:51,960
Speaker 2: was grief and what was trauma trauma response? But I,

319
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:56,360
Speaker 2: you know, I was. I was very affected at the beginning,

320
00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,320
Speaker 2: Like I didn't know what was up or down. I

321
00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,560
Speaker 2: felt like I was just stuck in this washing machine

322
00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,679
Speaker 2: that was constant on different cycles of all over the place.

323
00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,520
Speaker 2: Didn't sleep very much. I didn't eat for about four days.

324
00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:13,280
Speaker 2: I just was so confused and my body I was

325
00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:15,880
Speaker 2: like rejecting what had gone on. It was like, it's

326
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:20,199
Speaker 2: so bad that you just reject what happened to the

327
00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,600
Speaker 2: point where like I went to school the day after Sam.

328
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,159
Speaker 1: Died, did you really well? Your teachers?

329
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, they were completely completely shocked to see me.

330
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,400
Speaker 1: Yeah what about your friends, were they? Actually? Yeah?

331
00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:35,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm probably I'm pretty sure they just thought it

332
00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,480
Speaker 2: because everyone at school had been told that day. Yeah,

333
00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,879
Speaker 2: they probably thought like, what is this sick joke? Ben's

334
00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:44,040
Speaker 2: just honestly, I got in my car and I went

335
00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,360
Speaker 2: to school, and I went in and I just ran

336
00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:50,000
Speaker 2: over to my friends and I was like, hey, how's

337
00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,240
Speaker 2: everyone doing? Like nothing had happened, because my brain was

338
00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,600
Speaker 2: just like, Nope, this is not this has not happened,

339
00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:58,439
Speaker 2: and I'm going to do what i'd normally do and

340
00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:00,800
Speaker 2: just take myself to school. Lasked in about an hour,

341
00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:01,800
Speaker 2: and then I was exhausted.

342
00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:05,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, the adrenaline and shock just wearing.

343
00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:07,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it was like that for a while and

344
00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:11,560
Speaker 2: then you slowly learn. And I think the best way

345
00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,280
Speaker 2: I can describe it, and I've described it to other people,

346
00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,919
Speaker 2: is that like it's a it's a flame. It's like

347
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:20,240
Speaker 2: a fire, like a bonfire when when grief, you're standing

348
00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,040
Speaker 2: so close to it that like you you can't notice

349
00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,520
Speaker 2: anything but this intense heat that's coming from it. And

350
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:29,560
Speaker 2: everyone says time heels. I don't know, it's not as

351
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,280
Speaker 2: straightforward as that, but I do think with time you

352
00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,600
Speaker 2: just get distanced from the flame that fire, so that

353
00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,800
Speaker 2: it's still there and sometimes you notice it, but the heat,

354
00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,119
Speaker 2: the feeling of the intensity of that heat just feels

355
00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:46,040
Speaker 2: less and less extreme. So it's not the pain that

356
00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,000
Speaker 2: you that makes you notice that this happened, but it's

357
00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:51,560
Speaker 2: just sort of going into a room you haven't been

358
00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:53,800
Speaker 2: in too since he died, or the things would remind

359
00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:55,640
Speaker 2: you it's there. I think that's the best way I've

360
00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:57,520
Speaker 2: had to describe it. It's just the intensity of those

361
00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:01,480
Speaker 2: feelings starts to just get and less extreme with time,

362
00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:05,359
Speaker 2: and that's definitely what I felt. And then I, you know,

363
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:11,560
Speaker 2: eventually got the courage to seek professional support, which was

364
00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:15,840
Speaker 2: scary but amazing, and then dealt with a lot of

365
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,800
Speaker 2: the trauma that I'd not really dealt with and EMDR therapy,

366
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,639
Speaker 2: which I thought was amazing, and I managed to deal

367
00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:23,920
Speaker 2: with a lot of that, and then you get a

368
00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:27,760
Speaker 2: position where you know, you actually feel like you got

369
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,879
Speaker 2: to handle back on things. And because I think a

370
00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:34,280
Speaker 2: lot of the time I was maybe in the passenger seat,

371
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,320
Speaker 2: yeah I'm not really fully in control of what was

372
00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:41,760
Speaker 2: going on, and just sort of going from moment to moment. Actually, interestingly,

373
00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:46,399
Speaker 2: not to go off on points, but one of the

374
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,800
Speaker 2: funny experience of grief that I had, not funny but

375
00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:57,080
Speaker 2: unexpected a chuckle. Was hedonism, like this absolute intense need

376
00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:01,199
Speaker 2: for fun and like just I I started university in

377
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,600
Speaker 2: like September, so a few months after Sam died, and

378
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,120
Speaker 2: it was literally just like chasing fun and going out

379
00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,120
Speaker 2: and like trying to just basically block everything out by

380
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:15,280
Speaker 2: having just hedonistic out there like behavior, which I think

381
00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,000
Speaker 2: is so interesting because at the time I thought that

382
00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,800
Speaker 2: I was doing really well because I was having fun,

383
00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:22,960
Speaker 2: and I look back and I was like, I was

384
00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:29,160
Speaker 2: actually just like chasing thrills, trying to escape like feeling

385
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,400
Speaker 2: on my own or feeling low, and that was an

386
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,040
Speaker 2: interesting That was an interesting observation I did not see

387
00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:37,840
Speaker 2: in the time. So many years later I was like, whoa,

388
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,800
Speaker 2: I was really unwell when that was happening, and probably

389
00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:42,440
Speaker 2: a lot of drinking. Oh yeah.

390
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,520
Speaker 1: And it's also that's just like the imagine being well,

391
00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,280
Speaker 1: you don't have to imagine you're like how old were you? Eighteen?

392
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:50,680
Speaker 1: At fresh As Week and I know if you guys

393
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,400
Speaker 1: call it that, just being like a week just being

394
00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,320
Speaker 1: like great, I have this gaping emotional wound and I

395
00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:00,639
Speaker 1: have a gallon of liquor. Yeah, everyone around you around

396
00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:02,439
Speaker 1: you was having a great and that looks like the

397
00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:06,320
Speaker 1: normal thing to do, but like, wow, when do you

398
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,840
Speaker 1: think you came out of like the hedonistic like I'm

399
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,480
Speaker 1: just gonna live while I'm young stage? Do you think

400
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,280
Speaker 1: it was like after your first year?

401
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,760
Speaker 2: Or I think it was COVID lockdown? So what's that?

402
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,000
Speaker 2: Three years? Two two and a half, three years afterwards

403
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,000
Speaker 2: and when you're forced to not do that anymore? And

404
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:28,479
Speaker 2: I was on my own in COVID, I got I

405
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,480
Speaker 2: was I was in a flat that was about it's

406
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,320
Speaker 2: probably not much bigger than the studio, and I had

407
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:38,240
Speaker 2: to do ten and ten days on my own, and

408
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:40,440
Speaker 2: oh that was tough? Was it?

409
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:40,840
Speaker 1: Just?

410
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:42,400
Speaker 2: Did you have? I had? I got infected.

411
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:43,160
Speaker 1: You got infected.

412
00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:46,679
Speaker 2: So I was stuck and then on my own. I

413
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:50,520
Speaker 2: remember the only person I saw in ten days was

414
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:56,480
Speaker 2: someone pushed batteries for an Xbox controller. Through past of

415
00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:56,800
Speaker 2: the tour.

416
00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:59,480
Speaker 1: Were you at UNI? Yeah, you were in.

417
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,280
Speaker 2: Like a like a little room and that was that

418
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 2: was intense. And so I felt that whole experience like

419
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 2: I actually was okay. I was fine. I like coped.

420
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,359
Speaker 2: I was okay, but it just made you sort of

421
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,720
Speaker 2: it like took you away from everything that you usually

422
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:19,199
Speaker 2: kept to like make yourself okay. And I was very

423
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,400
Speaker 2: lucky that I had support through counseling at that time

424
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,560
Speaker 2: that I was doing virtually so I was like, you

425
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:30,000
Speaker 2: start to go, oh, this sort of thing that I've

426
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 2: put myself up on it's fun. Oh it's not there anymore.

427
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:38,840
Speaker 2: I'm actually really really not okay. So that was quite

428
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,640
Speaker 2: an interesting experience for me, just being forced to stay

429
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:46,200
Speaker 2: in my room. And then and then I left UNI. Oh, yeah,

430
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:48,679
Speaker 2: this has not happened. This is actually now I've stepped

431
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,880
Speaker 2: out of this. I'm really not very well. And then

432
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,200
Speaker 2: I left and sort of started to make some real

433
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,320
Speaker 2: changes in my life to sort of get back in control.

434
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,800
Speaker 2: Which so actually it was like, it's quite quite a

435
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:02,120
Speaker 2: good experience in a.

436
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 1: Way, it sounds like a bit of a circuit breaker.

437
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 2: It was, Yeah, in a weird way. I wouldn't recommend

438
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:10,400
Speaker 2: it was awful, but it was like it was also needed, Yeah,

439
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,120
Speaker 2: because you started doing a lot of reflection on how

440
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,359
Speaker 2: I was living and what I was doing and not

441
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 2: really dealing with anything. And then it was like, m

442
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 2: this is an interesting moment of noticing all of that.

443
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then like another deeply traumatic moment probably where

444
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,159
Speaker 1: it's like, great, so my life that I'm trying to

445
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:33,399
Speaker 1: rebuild is going to be completely ripped abot and we'll

446
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 1: move on to the next thing.

447
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it was very confusing as well, because I

448
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 2: was in the moment of all of the plans I

449
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:42,679
Speaker 2: had in my life of what I wanted to do.

450
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 2: I was still sort of doing because I didn't it

451
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 2: was too late to change my degree or whatever. So

452
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 2: I was like still on that plan, but realizing more

453
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 2: and more that it's not really what I wanted to do.

454
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,119
Speaker 2: And so there was a whole it was just very confusing,

455
00:23:58,080 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 2: very very confusing.

456
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:03,520
Speaker 1: Do you remember like the first time after Sam passed

457
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 1: away that you and your family like we're like together

458
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,199
Speaker 1: and we're like laughing and we're able to like have

459
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:10,120
Speaker 1: a bit of a glimmer.

460
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,919
Speaker 2: That's a really good question. That's a really good question.

461
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 2: It took a long long time to feel normal as

462
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,439
Speaker 2: a family. You know, so many times you'd go and

463
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:25,879
Speaker 2: lay the table and you'd carry like five sets of

464
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 2: forks and knives over or five like set places, And

465
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 2: that happened so many times for me, and even like

466
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 2: talking about him took a long time to feel normal.

467
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:43,880
Speaker 2: I don't. Actually, I think it might have been Christmas, weirdly,

468
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 2: because that's quite a difficult time for grief when you

469
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:49,879
Speaker 2: can sort of get a little bit of room. I

470
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 2: was also actually probably it was probably not so. When

471
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,399
Speaker 2: I was at school when Sam died, I realized very

472
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 2: quickly that I wanted to do something positive, and so

473
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 2: I organized something called Walk to Talk, which was basically

474
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 2: this two hundred kilometer walk that me and my friends

475
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 2: are going to do to raise money, and we would

476
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:08,919
Speaker 2: invite the whole school, and if people wanted to come

477
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 2: and walk the whole thing, they could come. If they

478
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 2: wanted to walk one day, they could come and walk

479
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 2: with us. And I basically designed it to be fun

480
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 2: and colorful and real celebration of talking and mental health

481
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 2: as opposed to it being like a ceremony. And that

482
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,400
Speaker 2: was great, Like we had bright pink T shirts and

483
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 2: we were like talking about Sam every day and it

484
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 2: was fun and my family got involved loads. So I

485
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 2: think that was probably a good moment where we could

486
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 2: really just sort of, I don't know, sort of feel

487
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,400
Speaker 2: like the subject of sus I'm losing Sam wasn't necessarily

488
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 2: this dark, awful thing that we can't go near. It's like, actually,

489
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 2: we're all dressing pink, having a good time, talking about

490
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,199
Speaker 2: Sam and talking about something that's positive and getting around that.

491
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 2: So that was a really that was a nice moment.

492
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 1: Where did you guys walk in London? That's two hundred.

493
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 2: Colomb So we walked from where I grew up in

494
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 2: Kent sort of mid Kent all the way to London,

495
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 2: which actually isn't two hundred klometers, but we were like

496
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 2: it was near enough two hundred klometers. It was about

497
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:09,959
Speaker 2: one hundred and seventy, so we were like, let's just

498
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 2: add thirty and round it up classic so it's two

499
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:20,199
Speaker 2: hundred klometers over ten days in September twenty eighteen, and

500
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,239
Speaker 2: it was just it was that was That was the

501
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 2: I only ever did it to raise a bit of

502
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 2: money and then before I went to UNI, and that

503
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 2: was the walk. Really, that was the event that I

504
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 2: went I really want to do this for the rest

505
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 2: of my life. Like I really saw the impact that

506
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 2: you can have on other people's lives by having some

507
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 2: of the people that came on that walk, you know,

508
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 2: I went to spoke to their family about their things

509
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,160
Speaker 2: that were going on, their life for the first time ever,

510
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 2: you know, to be able to be the one to

511
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 2: make someone feel comfortable enough to have those conversations and

512
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 2: know how important that is. I just yeah, you can't

513
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 2: not help someone make that step and not want to

514
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 2: then keep helping other people make that step and get

515
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 2: the right support. So it was really that was the

516
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 2: formation for everything that came since.

517
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 1: Wow, Well this is a great segue into Reasons to Stay,

518
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 1: which is when did you launch this project?

519
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,360
Speaker 2: January? January, four months ago, three months ago?

520
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 1: Don't It's just amazing because it has touched so many

521
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,439
Speaker 1: lives so quickly. Do you want to talk about it?

522
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 2: I would love talking.

523
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 1: About the idea behind it.

524
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 2: So I've worked in this space for eight years. I've

525
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 2: spoken to more people that have felt suicidal or looked

526
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 2: after someone suicidal than I can count. I mean, so

527
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 2: many people. And the one thing I've realized with mental

528
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 2: health is that, unlike other social issues, it's very difficult

529
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:53,120
Speaker 2: for the general public to feel like they're practically involved

530
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 2: in helping. So with climate change, you can recycle more,

531
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 2: you can take public transport, ride a bike, and you

532
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 2: can feel like you're practically involved in the solution. With

533
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 2: mental health. Unless you're a clinical professional or involved some

534
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,400
Speaker 2: way clinically, it's very difficult for you to actually help.

535
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 2: And I've always thought that it would be good to

536
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 2: find a way to connect the millions and millions and

537
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 2: millions and billions of people around the world that care

538
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 2: about this issue and want to help with the millions

539
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 2: or billions of people that need to be cared for.

540
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 2: So that's that's the first point. Then the second point

541
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 2: is the human race has a lot of problems, right,

542
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 2: and it's difficult to feel good about us sometimes, especially

543
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 2: in the world. Yeah, right, But the one thing that

544
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 2: I think is absolutely phenomenal about us as a species

545
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 2: is that when there is a catastrophe, people that don't

546
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 2: know each other will drop everything and run to help.

547
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 2: And I think that is so remarkable and amazing. Is

548
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 2: this instinct to just help strangers that we all, most

549
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 2: of us have, which I think is just incredible, And

550
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 2: I think it's the most amazing thing about being human

551
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 2: being is that you can feel such deep empathy for

552
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 2: someone you don't know. We always say that about elephants

553
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 2: and then forget that actually we are we do the

554
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 2: same thing. And so those two things sort of came

555
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 2: together and I was like, well, we've got a problem

556
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 2: with suicide. We've got a lot of people that want

557
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 2: to help. How can you let strangers help in a

558
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 2: way that's clinically safe. And that's where Reasons to Stay

559
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 2: came from. So essentially, anyone in the world can write

560
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 2: a letter on the site that then goes to our

561
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,959
Speaker 2: clinical moderation team. They make sure everything's safe, publish it,

562
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 2: and then anyone can go on and read one of

563
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 2: these letters and have them delivered to them. And that

564
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 2: was the idea, and I'd launched it this year in

565
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 2: January on the twenty first of January, which is the

566
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 2: anniversary of Sam's death, because that was my good thing

567
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 2: that day. That's always a bad day, So I was like,

568
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 2: you know, you need a hefty good thing to get

569
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 2: through that day.

570
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: A maje in one big people will hear about this thing.

571
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and so yeah, I launched that for no

572
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 2: reason other than I thought it was a good idea

573
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 2: and I had very little expectation. It was a project

574
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 2: that I wanted to work on in behind the scenes

575
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 2: and sort of just really love to grow. I thought

576
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 2: we'd maybe send one hundred letters that week, and we

577
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 2: sent thirty three thousand, and then by mid February we'd

578
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 2: sent a million. And as of now, we've sent three

579
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 2: point six million letters to people in one hundred and

580
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 2: eighty countries. In what's that just over three months it's been.

581
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 2: We've reached seventeen million people on social media with this project.

582
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 2: It's just been like beyond anything I could possibly imagine.

583
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 2: And I guess it goes to show that instinct of

584
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 2: millions of people want to help was absolutely true and

585
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 2: it just it worked.

586
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that gave me chills. That is the coolest,

587
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: coolest story I've probably ever heard on the podcast.

588
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 2: Amazing, being pretty incredible to see unfold in front of me,

589
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 2: and every moment, particularly in those early days where it

590
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 2: was so intense, you know, all the milestones just felt massive. Yeah,

591
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 2: first one hundred thousand was huge, and then it was

592
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 2: a million, and then as most people that if you

593
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 2: know me, will know me for a video I posted

594
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 2: when I when I first heard that it had helped

595
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 2: someone and my reaction to what that meant to me

596
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 2: when I found out that someone had, you know, very

597
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 2: literally survived because they've written a letter, read a letter

598
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 2: or other you know, all those moments just were just

599
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 2: it was I feel every day I watched it climb

600
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 2: to just enormous numbers, and it was just pinching myself constantly.

601
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: What are you going to do it?

602
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 2: For?

603
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 1: Ten million?

604
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 2: Party walk? That was the right end ten million. And

605
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 2: you know what what's absolutely mad is that will I

606
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 2: was going to say it will happen this year.

607
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 1: I think it will happen.

608
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 2: It happens soon very so it's you know, it's which

609
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 2: is extraordinary, but it's also just such a nice reminder that,

610
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 2: like it's so bad, well this is what's happening.

611
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, but at the.

612
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 2: End of the day, like there are always reasons to stay,

613
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 2: but there are always reasons to feel positive about the world.

614
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 2: And it does you don't have to feel suicidal to

615
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 2: benefit from reasons to stay. The site. I go on there,

616
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 2: you read a letter, and you feel better about yourself

617
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 2: and the world and this human race that we all

618
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 2: were a part of. You just you cannot go on

619
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 2: that website and not feel better about the state of

620
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:53,719
Speaker 2: the world and who you are and your part in it.

621
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 2: And I just think that's so wonderful, just because you know,

622
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 2: I have I do have this just love of people

623
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 2: and what we can do for each other. And it

624
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 2: just is such an amazing And I had no idea

625
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 2: this is going to be like this. I really genuinely

626
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 2: put you know, I put thought into it, but I

627
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 2: didn't put this much thought into it. And to see

628
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 2: what it's become and see how much it means to people, Oh,

629
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 2: it's been very, very very special. Yeah, we've got to

630
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 2: do we ten million, Well we'll come back for ten million.

631
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: Someone we need to the population of the world needs

632
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 1: to give you a huge thank you.

633
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 2: Oh thank you.

634
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: Let's segue. I imagine. And we were talking about this

635
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: before we were recording, that sometimes it's hard to talk

636
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 1: about mental health all the time, and that you're probably

637
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 1: you know, you're very much the mental health guy online.

638
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 1: You know you've done this incredible thing. You're not going

639
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 1: to give that up for anything. But in your personal

640
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: life as well, I'm sure a lot of people are like, oh,

641
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 1: this is Ben Ben. If I have a problem, I

642
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: can go to Ben. Strangers probably think that what's is

643
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 1: that hard?

644
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:08,320
Speaker 2: Sometimes yeah, it's extremely hard. It's extremely extremely hard because

645
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 2: also I'm in this because I care so much, so

646
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 2: it's very difficult not to feel like you have to

647
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 2: always talk about it and that I'm going to do

648
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 2: this for the rest of my life. But it's also

649
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 2: really important for me to know when his work and

650
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 2: when it's not. And with social media, especially recently, it's

651
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 2: been very, very difficult to step away from that and

652
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,879
Speaker 2: have me because at the end of the day, I'm ben.

653
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 2: For most of my life, I haven't talked about this,

654
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 2: and I have a whole personality that it's built on

655
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 2: not having to talk about mental health every day. And

656
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 2: I think sometimes he needs to and laugh. And you know,

657
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 2: there is lots of positive and fun moments in this journey.

658
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 2: There are also lots of incredibly devastating, sad, hard work

659
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 2: hours and bad things that happen. And I don't think

660
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 2: it's healthy for anyone to be, you know, experiencing that

661
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:10,360
Speaker 2: all the time, you know, you know, when Reasons this

662
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:14,479
Speaker 2: Day went viral, I got fifty thousand messages in one day,

663
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 2: and it's just like on a level that you it's

664
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 2: just not normal would be And most of those were

665
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 2: incredibly sensitive information about what someone was going through, you know,

666
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 2: when I was scrolling through, almost all of them were

667
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 2: This is why this matters to me, which is obviously

668
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 2: incredible and so lovely that people feel like they can

669
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 2: share it. But that just reading that volume of really

670
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 2: sometimes quite harrowing stories like it takes a toll. And

671
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 2: so yeah, it's it's important for me to do this work.

672
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 2: I love it. I'm never not going to do it.

673
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:53,919
Speaker 2: But it's also as I've done this more and more,

674
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 2: you've got to work out how you do things that

675
00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 2: are not this and even And it's funny because I've

676
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 2: I also run, and I made the decisions start like

677
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 2: running to raise money for mental health, right, and so

678
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 2: I've done like marathons and ultra marathons to like talk

679
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 2: about this, and I've realized, you know, I've realized after

680
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 2: this year, is I don't want to do that. I

681
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,760
Speaker 2: don't think I want to keep running separate for mental

682
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:19,760
Speaker 2: health and not raise money and sort of just literally

683
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 2: just do it for fun for me, because I think

684
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 2: I was pouring too much of myself into this. So

685
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 2: it's a it's a balancing act. But sometimes you are

686
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 2: desperate for it no offense to this podcast. Sometimes it's

687
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,359
Speaker 2: desperate for a podcast that's not mental health. Yeah, so

688
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 2: ask me about like I don't know what what's my

689
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 2: other what's what would be my mastermind?

690
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: Oh, we've got questions for you, but I've got some

691
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: fun ones.

692
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 2: Oh I'm sure. I'm sure, but you know what I mean.

693
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 2: And she must be the same with you. Sometimes where

694
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 2: it's like, obviously it's hugely important, but sometimes it's important

695
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,919
Speaker 2: to just remember that it's like one part of me. Yeah,

696
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 2: and I also have my own mental health, which sometimes.

697
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 1: That's the that's the hard part. I think when people

698
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 1: think of you as this person who has it all

699
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 1: sorted out since you're talking about it openly, and it's

700
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 1: like I'm still really trying to figure it out myself.

701
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 1: I get that a lot when I like and it

702
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 1: was interesting, like it's it is not a regular problem

703
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,919
Speaker 1: to have. No, it's not too many people trust me. Yeah,

704
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 1: you know, you know, I just I'm doing too good

705
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 1: a job at helping people. But it is like I

706
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,319
Speaker 1: definitely have a similar experience where sometimes I've got to

707
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 1: not talk about psychology and it's hard to Like, sometimes

708
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: friends will come to you and be like and you

709
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 1: want to be there for them, and that sometimes means

710
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 1: being less present online so that you have the the

711
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 1: resources to show up.

712
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 2: It really matters. Yeah, for sure, for sure, and it's

713
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 2: it's just about trying to protect yourself at the end

714
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 2: of the Yeah, we're a difficult topic and this goes

715
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 2: for And I'm very lucky obviously that I've been doing

716
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 2: this a long time. So I know a lot of

717
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 2: people that work in a similar area, and not just

718
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 2: mental health campaigning, but sort of loads of different areas

719
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 2: of social issues which are all difficult to experience, right

720
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 2: and to work in. So I've sort of learned a

721
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 2: lot from them and we support each other, right because

722
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 2: no one can talk about bad things all the time,

723
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 2: which actually, in fairness, is one of the reasons that

724
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 2: I wanted to start reasons to stay because in my

725
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 2: work you talk a lot about bad things. I do

726
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 2: a lot of policy work. I do a lot of

727
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 2: work with data and with mental health in parliament, and

728
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 2: it's never You're never talking about it because things are

729
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 2: going well. That's very good, right, And I think for me,

730
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 2: I'm not like that. I'm quite I'm always been a

731
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 2: glass half full fun. I like fun, I like optimism,

732
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 2: and so I reason State came about because I was

733
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 2: desperate to do something fun and positive and like something

734
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 2: that's a good thing to talk about, and reasons today

735
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 2: is such a good thing to talk about, Like I

736
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 2: that was part of it as well, which is that

737
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 2: I needed a way of doing something that was positive

738
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 2: rather than what it was before, which was constantly talking

739
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 2: about you know, for a long time I was working

740
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 2: on a campaign that was trying to improve negligence laws.

741
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 2: I'm like, negligence is never a conversation that is ever positive,

742
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 2: Like no positive thing ever leads to a negligence conversation. Yeah,

743
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 2: So it's like that's basically sums up sort of what

744
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,800
Speaker 2: the conversations I was having. They were always about death

745
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,880
Speaker 2: and failure and negligence. And you're like, that is not

746
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 2: that is not particularly upbeat. No, it's very very important.

747
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:43,720
Speaker 2: But you need you need the balance.

748
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, and now you found it. I do, and probably

749
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 1: like one of the reasons why you like you as

750
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 1: an optimistic person, Like this can only come from the

751
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: brain of an optimistic person, do you know what I mean?

752
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good point.

753
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 1: So it's kind of like you feel like you found

754
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: the way. That just shows how many people were hungering

755
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: for somebody to be like, can we talk about mental

756
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 1: health in a way that isn't. It's hard, right, it's

757
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 1: to find a positive spin, and not that we should,

758
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 1: but just in a way that's it's proactive and positive

759
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 1: and meaningful.

760
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 2: Positive without being invalidating as well, because you can be

761
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:24,240
Speaker 2: positive about this but come across like you're just quite

762
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 2: making fun of someone or belittling something. But this is

763
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 2: positive in a way of like, it's really awesome that

764
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 2: we can do something for each other. And you know what,

765
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 2: if you go on there and write a letter, you'll

766
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 2: feel good about yourself and you'll feel like you're part

767
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 2: of the thing, and it'll be It's just everything about

768
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 2: it is just phenomenally positive from every perspective, and that's

769
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 2: awesome to be part of.

770
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 1: It's just hope, Like that's literally I'm like I was

771
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,400
Speaker 1: trying to think. I was like, it's not optimistic, it's

772
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 1: just hopeful.

773
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 2: Well, that's that is at the end of the day.

774
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 2: That is the reason to stay, right, the reason to

775
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 2: state only exists when there's hope, and when there's no hope,

776
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 2: then there's no reason to stay. So all we're trying

777
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 2: to do in that moment is give someone something, some little,

778
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,760
Speaker 2: tiny little spark of hope to get them through that moment,

779
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 2: and that, for a lot of people is what that

780
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 2: letter represents. And I just think that, you know, I

781
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 2: know that in the three and a half million people

782
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 2: that've read a letter, I know that so many of

783
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:24,720
Speaker 2: them really feel connected to that person that's written a letter.

784
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 2: And it's almost like, and I knew this when I

785
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:31,280
Speaker 2: was designing, Actually there's something I wanted people to feel.

786
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:35,439
Speaker 2: It's almost like somewhere there is your letter writer. They're real,

787
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 2: they're out there, and it's like you've got this guardian angel,

788
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,839
Speaker 2: this person that you don't know and will never meet,

789
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 2: that's just sort of cheering you on. And I just

790
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,360
Speaker 2: think there's something quite beautiful in that being a reason

791
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 2: to stay when everything else in your life is absolutely

792
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:54,720
Speaker 2: chaos and you've got no hope. You've got that person

793
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:57,919
Speaker 2: who's written you a letter because they care, and if

794
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 2: you have no other reason to stay, they can be

795
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,360
Speaker 2: that reason. I think that that is a very very

796
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 2: very powerful thing to give someone that maybe has nothing,

797
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 2: what does or feels like they have nothing.

798
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: And also just the sense of like, oh, somebody cares

799
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:17,879
Speaker 1: about me, like somebody is thinking about me, and that's

800
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 1: like so beautiful. Okay, let's finish.

801
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 2: Up with a couple of questions.

802
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 1: So we're going to talk about your book in a second, okay,

803
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 1: but firstly, let's talk about some other things that you

804
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 1: are beyond mental health. Yeah, so I've got some rapid

805
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,400
Speaker 1: fire questions here we go before we're going to finish

806
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 1: with two final questions. We'll let you have your water.

807
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 1: We've been depriving you of it.

808
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 2: Feel like I need to prepare for these, Well, you do.

809
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 1: They're very important. Okay, are you ready? A favorite song

810
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 1: at the moment.

811
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:50,800
Speaker 2: Or anything by Noah Kahn? What's the new Album's? Absolutely

812
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 2: fantastic view between villagers? That was the old album, wasn't it?

813
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 2: But that is probably my favorite? And it's also the

814
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,360
Speaker 2: tune I put over my huge viral reel, so almost

815
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 2: fit feels like a very he was fitting song for that.

816
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 2: Did he see the real No?

817
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 1: I don't think so maybe secretly, I feel like he

818
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 1: secretly did.

819
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,919
Speaker 2: Please And also he does amazing work for mental health,

820
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,399
Speaker 2: so I find a way of clabbing him. Yeah, yeah,

821
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 2: he's awesome. He's an album.

822
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 1: If I get his number of sener to you do?

823
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:22,360
Speaker 2: Yeah? Maybe he used a ten million celebrations.

824
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 1: I love how we're putting it out.

825
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, few two villages. Great subway order, subway order,

826
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:30,839
Speaker 2: Mabel Marinara, cheese and.

827
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 1: Toasted, cheese and toasted.

828
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 2: What kind of bread hearty Italian?

829
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 1: Oh?

830
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 2: Classic, the beste So you lettuce, pickles, plipinos and then

831
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 2: weirdly not rancher. Why is it left me? It's the

832
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 2: sort of spicy male thing. Weird. Once you're in with

833
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 2: your selection, you can't really change, can you know? I

834
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 2: was very sauty sandwich.

835
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:00,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was thinking that. I was like, it's square

836
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 1: a spicy sandwiches as well.

837
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:07,760
Speaker 2: It's quite difficult to eat off your or not. Yeah, no, no, no, interesting.

838
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 1: Okay, who's your favor This is a real hard question.

839
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 1: Who's your favorite?

840
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 2: Neppo Baby Wow Baby. Roman Camp he's pick up the

841
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 2: mental health topic. I know we're trying to get away

842
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 2: from mental health, but he does do amazing work.

843
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 1: I don't know who that is.

844
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 2: Roman Camp in the UK Capital Breakfast used to be

845
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 2: Capital Breakfast. He does Vota phone adverts.

846
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 1: Oh okay, well I'm not from the UK, so I

847
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 1: need to do my research.

848
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 2: Roman Camp in the UK and internationally. His dad was

849
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 2: Martin Kemp, who's in a band.

850
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 1: Of course I know who that is. Yeah, what's the bed.

851
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 2: The band put me on? I have no idea, no

852
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 2: offense to Mark and Camp.

853
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 1: I'm going to go to Terence. It's okay, I'll wikipedia

854
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:56,280
Speaker 1: favorite royal family member.

855
00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 2: Oh, Prince William Yeah strong again, like big up the

856
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 2: mental health.

857
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 1: My friend met him and he was him and Princess Kate.

858
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 1: Princess Kate is that her name? Pro Yes, she's a

859
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 1: princess yea. And she was like, that's like every I

860
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,279
Speaker 1: feel like Australians come to the UK and they're like,

861
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 1: so I need to meet a royal.

862
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,879
Speaker 2: Lovely. They do some amazing work And actually I work

863
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 2: quite closely with the Kensingto Palace team, and like obviously

864
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 2: he's very committed to like mental health.

865
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 1: He really is that a really good job on like

866
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 1: a very serious level.

867
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. And actually when I've met him previously talking about

868
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 2: some of the stuff that we're doing, he's always he's

869
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:38,839
Speaker 2: always quite in a good way, quite like it gives

870
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:40,879
Speaker 2: you challenge about stuff that you can do. So it's

871
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:44,359
Speaker 2: like it's not just briefed to know a little bit

872
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:46,800
Speaker 2: enough to get through a conversation. He like really knows

873
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:48,879
Speaker 2: his stuff. Which I've always thought was a good sign

874
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 2: if someone actually cares rather than just sort of repeating

875
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 2: what he was told. Yeah, I really really really knows

876
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 2: this stuff when it comes to mental health.

877
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:57,359
Speaker 1: And that's a good lesson for like people like us

878
00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:59,760
Speaker 1: as well to be like, okay, when we like engage

879
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 1: other people, like all the people that we work with

880
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 1: higher up as well, like, how do we engage them? Like,

881
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:06,799
Speaker 1: it's actually good to push back a little bit something, But.

882
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 2: If challenge is always a good thing with the right

883
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 2: tone coming alongside and helping trying to understand what you

884
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:15,439
Speaker 2: could do more of. Yeah, but yeah, he's always been

885
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 2: good for that.

886
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:19,279
Speaker 1: I love that you are a close perhaps close friend

887
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 1: of Prince William. So now I can talk it off

888
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 1: mindless Prince William. Yeah, and Roman Camp.

889
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 2: If they're free for the ten million, let's.

890
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 1: Get them on a round table. Come on, first.

891
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 2: Job, first job, bar in a bar, in a pub? Yeah,

892
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:35,399
Speaker 2: in a pub.

893
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 1: What was the pub called?

894
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 2: Oh that's the Milkhouse.

895
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 1: The Milkhouse. See, I thought it was going to be

896
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 1: like His Lord's Head or something. Have some weird names

897
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 1: around here.

898
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 2: They do. We love a weird name, I know.

899
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:50,279
Speaker 1: And and the amount of them that are called like

900
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:51,839
Speaker 1: the Queen's something.

901
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:54,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Queen's head. Yeah, yeah, there's there's some what's.

902
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 1: The w Yeah, the Queen's Queen's I don't know. Well

903
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 1: you well, I wasn't. I'm about to say where you lived,

904
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: so I'm not going to do that. But I always

905
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 1: found that place funny. Yes, what's your biggest advice?

906
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:12,799
Speaker 2: Oh, slow walkers? You know, and which is ironic because

907
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:13,799
Speaker 2: I was really late to this.

908
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 1: Okay, but pet peeve, what's advice? Like, what's something that

909
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 1: you do that you're like, I shouldn't do that? Oh?

910
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 2: From me personally, that's a really good question. Oh. I

911
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:33,919
Speaker 2: love coke zero. You know everyone tells you that it's

912
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 2: coke zero worse than normal coke. I have tons of

913
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 2: coke sero, you know that. I just get through it.

914
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:42,439
Speaker 2: How much do you so your kind is my coke cerroo?

915
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 1: Well, my coke zero is also my coke. I'm not

916
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:49,839
Speaker 1: gonna lie. I've yeah. My doctor was like you got

917
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 1: to stop. Really, she was like, it's bad for you,

918
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:52,360
Speaker 1: really bad.

919
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 2: For I know. That's I found myself on forums, not

920
00:47:56,719 --> 00:48:01,399
Speaker 2: forums like midnight going. Is coke zero better than normal coke?

921
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 2: Or is it is it the sugar that's bad or

922
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 2: is it aspartame or something? And all these artificial sweetness

923
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:11,759
Speaker 2: look away. You could be and coffee. To be fair,

924
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 2: I have a lot of coffee, which I know is

925
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 2: not very good for you.

926
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:16,439
Speaker 1: I think coffee is not the worst vice.

927
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:19,239
Speaker 2: No, a nice little nice bit. I think sometimes they

928
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:22,360
Speaker 2: got both because I do a lot of coffee meetings.

929
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 2: Do you know when people like coffee? I stack my coffees.

930
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:27,959
Speaker 2: So what happens is then you've got like five people

931
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 2: you're meeting in the morning, and you have every coffee,

932
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 2: and I need to be better at going I'm just

933
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 2: gonna have hot chocolate. Actually, zero it up on the rocks, please,

934
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 2: or hot chocolate. That's a great idea, but sometimes you

935
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:44,320
Speaker 2: feel like this shouldn't be the case. But sometimes you

936
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 2: feel that you can't order hot chocolate because it's charged.

937
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:49,719
Speaker 2: If I'm meeting like a really, look at me, I'm

938
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:51,320
Speaker 2: dressed like this, because imagine why I walked up and

939
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 2: I was like, whatever, hot chocolate, marshmallows, please double marsh.

940
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 2: I'm not sure that's great for my credibility.

941
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 1: I think it's honestly better because you're like, I'm confident

942
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 1: enough that I'm gonna like, look, how I represent my

943
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 1: ideals right now?

944
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 2: True? Because I'm a black Americano guy as well. So

945
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 2: that is a big shift.

946
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 1: That's a big cost.

947
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 2: You couldn't get further from a Black Americano.

948
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,319
Speaker 1: Maybe a mocer get me somewhere in the middle.

949
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 2: Give it a go, Give it a go.

950
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:19,319
Speaker 1: Then, Okay, two more questions. You already said, because pet

951
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 1: people is the next question.

952
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:23,360
Speaker 2: So slow walkers, yeah, I'm the same. Yeah, and people

953
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 2: that walk in groups on small papers. I live in London, right,

954
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:28,720
Speaker 2: We've got very small pavements in some of these places,

955
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:32,240
Speaker 2: and it is people walk very slowly in lines.

956
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 1: I don't know why they do that. I have to

957
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 1: really hold it in I do.

958
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 2: It's my I can get my girlfriends the same. Yeah,

959
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 2: when we're together walking and that happens.

960
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 1: It's have you gone by down Regions Canal recently?

961
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 2: So pavements there are only one person wired and you've

962
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:52,360
Speaker 2: got three people walking, yeah, holding hands and I've got

963
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:56,319
Speaker 2: somewhere to go. Yeah, and they don't they just yeah,

964
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 2: you enjoy it.

965
00:49:57,200 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's great.

966
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:04,840
Speaker 2: Favorite Tivish favorite TV show. Oh you know what I

967
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 2: loved MythBusters random one, but that was so good. That

968
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 2: is my childhood Adam Savage.

969
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:17,759
Speaker 1: And the other one, Yeah, I know he is he

970
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:18,280
Speaker 1: still alive?

971
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:22,360
Speaker 2: No, you know it was No, they're both, they're both alive.

972
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:26,560
Speaker 2: It was Grant who died. Oh god, from the you know,

973
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:28,359
Speaker 2: there was the two and then there was the three.

974
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 2: I was very sad. He was quite young. Actually, I

975
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:31,759
Speaker 2: think it was maybe last year.

976
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 1: Do you know they weren't friends.

977
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:34,800
Speaker 2: I know they didn't get on.

978
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 1: They didn't get on.

979
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 2: I would never know.

980
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 1: No, they were so good. What was your favorite myth?

981
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:42,800
Speaker 2: Favorite myth? There was one about a bullet curving that

982
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:45,360
Speaker 2: was quite good when you tried it like that, that

983
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:49,439
Speaker 2: was quite good. I mean, all the explosions are great. God,

984
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 2: it's a really good question. It's been a long time

985
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 2: since I've watched any of them.

986
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:54,720
Speaker 1: Mine was another bullet one was like getting shot underwater.

987
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:55,879
Speaker 2: Oh, that was good.

988
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: Watching this episode get rated R now.

989
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:04,840
Speaker 2: Was great. And then you can't go wrong with a

990
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 2: bit of SpongeBob.

991
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:07,840
Speaker 1: That's I did not think you were going to say that.

992
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:09,239
Speaker 1: I thought you were maybe like a Parks in Red

993
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:10,279
Speaker 1: Brooklyn nine nine guy.

994
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:14,399
Speaker 2: No, neither, I've not watched either of those shows. I'm

995
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:16,799
Speaker 2: actually very good for TV. My girlfriend's big, like her

996
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 2: family is very big on films and TV shows, And

997
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:21,319
Speaker 2: I'm sorry I get outed every time they're like, oh,

998
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:24,279
Speaker 2: if he's not seen that, you should definitely have seen that.

999
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:28,400
Speaker 1: When somebody's like you haven't seen Parks and Recreation, no,

1000
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:31,280
Speaker 1: and you're like, no, that was about.

1001
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:31,360
Speaker 2: To be me.

1002
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:38,879
Speaker 1: So okay, let's talk about your book.

1003
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:39,920
Speaker 2: My book.

1004
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:42,240
Speaker 1: Look what he has right here.

1005
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:46,319
Speaker 2: So awesome to see in real life.

1006
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:48,279
Speaker 1: What's it called for the people who aren't watching?

1007
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 2: This is called Reasons Too. It's based on reasons to Stay.

1008
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 2: But this is going to be filled with letters from

1009
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 2: real people for not just moments where you might need

1010
00:51:57,640 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 2: a reason to stay. But I just love the idea

1011
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 2: of people writing about grief and anxiety and overthinking and depression,

1012
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 2: and like, I really want this book to be there

1013
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 2: for any moment when whatever you're going through, you can

1014
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:12,440
Speaker 2: open it and there'll be a letter from a real person,

1015
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 2: just like with Reasons to Stay, but about a moment

1016
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:17,880
Speaker 2: in your in your life. Wow, and this one is

1017
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:19,800
Speaker 2: currently I was going to be empty.

1018
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:21,120
Speaker 1: I was going to say, can you read us one?

1019
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 2: This is my inspiration to actually get the work done.

1020
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:27,840
Speaker 2: And but yeah, no, this is this is sort of

1021
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 2: it's lovely to be able to actually see this, but

1022
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 2: we are. These pages are eventually going to be filled

1023
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 2: with real people's letters. I just think that's gonna be

1024
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:41,800
Speaker 2: so beautiful, Like just whatever you're going through, Open it

1025
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 2: to a page and someone's written you a letter about

1026
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 2: the thing that you're going through. How beautiful, And it

1027
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 2: just gets to the heart of what Reasons Today is about.

1028
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 1: Are you going to write them all?

1029
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:53,680
Speaker 2: No, these will be other people. There'll be people that

1030
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:56,520
Speaker 2: have submitted to Reasons to Stay. So we're taking basically

1031
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:58,960
Speaker 2: the best letters from all these different topics and putting

1032
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 2: them in here. So no, I am not writing I

1033
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:04,279
Speaker 2: think I'm the less I write in this, I think

1034
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 2: the better. I really want this to be exactly with

1035
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:11,200
Speaker 2: like with Reasons to Stay, where it's strangers supporting strangers,

1036
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 2: and all of them will be real people, and so

1037
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 2: there will be there will be a situation where you know,

1038
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 2: I'll have I don't know how many letters we're choosing yet,

1039
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 2: one hundred, one hundred and fifty real people that have

1040
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:27,279
Speaker 2: really spent time writing. Oh how special The less I

1041
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:29,320
Speaker 2: write in here the better because I just want to

1042
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:34,799
Speaker 2: sort of curate this with people's words. Yeah, and also,

1043
00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 2: and it's going to be anonymous as well, so you know,

1044
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:39,399
Speaker 2: you've again, like reasons to say, You've got these people

1045
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 2: out there in the world that have sat there and

1046
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 2: written this because they care.

1047
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:47,759
Speaker 1: Also in the in the age of AI got a

1048
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 1: physical book with advice from real people, and.

1049
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 2: We're you know, very it's very difficult because you know,

1050
00:53:57,000 --> 00:53:58,640
Speaker 2: and this is a really good point actually, because a

1051
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:01,120
Speaker 2: lot of people that have written that is on Reason's

1052
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 2: Stay have been AI. I don't know, maybe I should

1053
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 2: not mention this, but it's funny because AI has learned

1054
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:11,439
Speaker 2: now what the perfect letter is for reasons to Stay.

1055
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:14,560
Speaker 2: So what's really interesting is you can tell it's from

1056
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 2: AI because it's all the same, so that Tajubut has

1057
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 2: learned through lots and lots of thousands of people asking

1058
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:25,240
Speaker 2: it this, it gives you the same letter. So although

1059
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 2: it sounds good, I know that that line is the

1060
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 2: same in about five thousand of them, like there's a lot.

1061
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:35,719
Speaker 2: So it's and one thing, you know, the reason people

1062
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 2: turn to AI is because it's a difficult task. It's

1063
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:41,279
Speaker 2: really really hard to know what to say to someone,

1064
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 2: and that is the point, Like it should feel hard,

1065
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:49,600
Speaker 2: it should feel really difficult, because in order to write

1066
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 2: a good letter to someone, you have to connect with

1067
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:55,840
Speaker 2: something in you that feels that the only way you

1068
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:59,480
Speaker 2: can answer the question of why should you not die

1069
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:04,240
Speaker 2: is understanding what you like about life, and there's something

1070
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:08,920
Speaker 2: really difficult and special in that question. So yeah, it's

1071
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 2: actually a really good point of like, if you're using AI,

1072
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 2: that defeats the point for you and for them, because

1073
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:21,640
Speaker 2: it's not about you know, reasons to stay is not

1074
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:24,880
Speaker 2: about the words that are written. It's about the person

1075
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:28,960
Speaker 2: that's written them and why and if you know, with AI,

1076
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:32,200
Speaker 2: it's just words. But with a letter that's written by

1077
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:35,880
Speaker 2: real human being, actually the words matter less than the

1078
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:39,319
Speaker 2: fact that you've spent the time doing it. So yeah,

1079
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:40,360
Speaker 2: no AI.

1080
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:43,920
Speaker 1: In the book.

1081
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, there are there are places in the world for

1082
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:50,840
Speaker 2: AI letters to people in this space. It's just not

1083
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:54,240
Speaker 2: that it's not it. So yeah, it's we're we're getting

1084
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:55,240
Speaker 2: very good at working out.

1085
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:59,239
Speaker 1: Which one day I know the feeling I get people, yeah,

1086
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 1: I want it, but I can always tell when like

1087
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:03,040
Speaker 1: you're like you.

1088
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:05,000
Speaker 2: Can that's not a real perose. So this will be

1089
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:07,680
Speaker 2: real people. Yeah, and the reasons say we'll always be

1090
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:08,279
Speaker 2: real people.

1091
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:10,400
Speaker 1: Well, we'll leave a link in the description to pre

1092
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 1: order something that people should know. Preorders of books are

1093
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:14,440
Speaker 1: the most important.

1094
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:20,120
Speaker 2: That's so important because they basically drive who stocks you exactly. Yeah,

1095
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 2: so actually it's really important to pre order.

1096
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:24,319
Speaker 1: Don't wait for it to come out, although you can

1097
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:26,680
Speaker 1: if you would like, but you probably should pre order it.

1098
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:28,160
Speaker 2: You can. It's a bit of a wake because we've

1099
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:28,960
Speaker 2: got to compile them.

1100
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 1: That would would be a nice surprise, your reason to

1101
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:33,640
Speaker 1: stay Yeah, because your book will arrive.

1102
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:35,239
Speaker 2: There we go.

1103
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:39,920
Speaker 1: Okay, final question. Yes, we asked us of every single guest,

1104
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 1: what is one piece of advice you have for people

1105
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:45,360
Speaker 1: in their twenties that has nothing to do with what

1106
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:47,320
Speaker 1: we spoke about today. Wow.

1107
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 2: Oh that's such a good point. I think we have

1108
00:56:57,160 --> 00:56:59,400
Speaker 2: spoken about it. But I just I am such an

1109
00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:03,440
Speaker 2: advocate for running, for running that sounds so lame, No,

1110
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 2: because I would be listening to this like three years

1111
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:08,920
Speaker 2: ago and I'd be like, that is just terrible advice.

1112
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:13,200
Speaker 2: I read a book, an amazing book called Born to Run.

1113
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:16,800
Speaker 2: If you are if you wanted to get into running

1114
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:19,960
Speaker 2: but haven't quite or you've never really enjoyed running. Read

1115
00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:22,960
Speaker 2: that book. I don't earn anything from saying.

1116
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:23,720
Speaker 1: Who wrote it.

1117
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:27,480
Speaker 2: Christopher McDougall. He's a running journalist in America, and he

1118
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:32,320
Speaker 2: basically he's obsessed with the idea that there's a there's

1119
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:35,640
Speaker 2: lots of tribes around the world that can run ultramarathons,

1120
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 2: and there's one called the mispronounced this the tarot Taro

1121
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 2: who Mura Tarooma in New Mexico. They basically they run

1122
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:49,200
Speaker 2: one hundred miles for fun, right, And he basically goes

1123
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 2: there and they wear to They do these races in

1124
00:57:56,400 --> 00:58:00,680
Speaker 2: disused car tires, sandals made from old car tire right.

1125
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:03,960
Speaker 2: So it's basically like we've got these like two hundred

1126
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:07,520
Speaker 2: pounds foam shoes here and we'd struggled like five k

1127
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:11,840
Speaker 2: and they're literally doing it in tires. And the whole

1128
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:14,200
Speaker 2: book it's not all about them. It's basically about how

1129
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:17,840
Speaker 2: the human being evolved and our evolution and how we

1130
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:20,720
Speaker 2: used to. We are built the way we are. Our

1131
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:23,880
Speaker 2: Achilles is the size it is because we are designed

1132
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:28,480
Speaker 2: to run and be able to recover aerobically on the run.

1133
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:32,520
Speaker 2: And it's an amazing book because basically, and this sounds

1134
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 2: a bit like I'm some weird runner now, it basically

1135
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:40,240
Speaker 2: makes you realize actually running to us is a little

1136
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:42,960
Speaker 2: bit like flying to a bird, and it's like we're

1137
00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:45,720
Speaker 2: so it's so genetically wired into us to be able

1138
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 2: to do it. So I loved it. I read that

1139
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:49,480
Speaker 2: book and then I decided to sign up for an

1140
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:53,440
Speaker 2: ultra marathon and I literally running for me now is everything.

1141
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 2: And what's amazing as well is that you will if

1142
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:00,720
Speaker 2: you do it, and you've just go up and put

1143
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 2: your trainers on and get out of the door, you

1144
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:04,920
Speaker 2: will see yourself improve, which I think is fantastic in itself,

1145
00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:08,440
Speaker 2: but you will. Also it's an amazing thing, which is

1146
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:12,160
Speaker 2: that it's always just as hard for everyone, Like whether

1147
00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:15,400
Speaker 2: you've never run before, if you run as hard as

1148
00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:18,840
Speaker 2: you can, that's always as hard. You might run faster,

1149
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:21,240
Speaker 2: but it's always feels as hard. And I don't think

1150
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:24,800
Speaker 2: there's anything really in life where everyone has the universal

1151
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:27,840
Speaker 2: experience of how hard it is. You might do different things,

1152
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:31,080
Speaker 2: but everyone feels the same. I think that's quite special.

1153
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:35,200
Speaker 2: So you're not racing anyone, you're only ever improving yourself.

1154
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:37,120
Speaker 2: It's one of the best things I ever started doing.

1155
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:41,880
Speaker 2: I loved that book Run you Don't hurt yourself. Yeah,

1156
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:43,520
Speaker 2: just get out the door and even if you have

1157
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:45,520
Speaker 2: to walk and run and walk and run and just

1158
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:47,200
Speaker 2: think it's fantastic.

1159
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:48,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, such great advice.

1160
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:52,320
Speaker 2: And I would never have imagined i'd say that to someone.

1161
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:52,960
Speaker 2: This is the thing.

1162
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:54,720
Speaker 1: I think when people get into running, they're like, oh

1163
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:56,720
Speaker 1: my god, I'm so boring, and then you start doing

1164
00:59:56,760 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 1: it and you're.

1165
00:59:57,160 --> 01:00:00,400
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, but yeah, I get it. I think it's

1166
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 2: because not to go on if we're wrapping up. But

1167
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:05,720
Speaker 2: I think it's because at school running was always a punishment,

1168
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:09,680
Speaker 2: like if you talk, if you were talking back to

1169
01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:12,320
Speaker 2: the classical conditioning, if you're talking like you'd be told

1170
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:14,440
Speaker 2: to run around the field or like there was always

1171
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:17,400
Speaker 2: a bad thing. And then there was an amazing moment

1172
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:22,160
Speaker 2: where losing Sam, I just went, I'm going to just

1173
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:23,800
Speaker 2: go for a run to get out of the house.

1174
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:26,720
Speaker 2: And then I just never stopped doing it. I just

1175
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:30,720
Speaker 2: love it. It's the only time that in public transport. Weirdly,

1176
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:33,040
Speaker 2: it's the only time my brain's ever quiet. My brain's

1177
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:34,800
Speaker 2: really quiet on the bus. Love it.

1178
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 1: I never thought about that.

1179
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:39,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's where I do my best, like thinking on

1180
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:44,480
Speaker 2: the bus, I've had reasons to stay. Came on a bus. Wow,

1181
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:45,880
Speaker 2: that was a bus journey.

1182
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:47,640
Speaker 1: I feel like that used to be the shower, but

1183
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:49,000
Speaker 1: now we listen to music in the shower.

1184
01:00:49,400 --> 01:00:51,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, showers just music now Yeah, and getting ready very

1185
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:55,440
Speaker 2: getting ready, very like stress for bus. There we go

1186
01:00:55,960 --> 01:00:57,440
Speaker 2: to ride the super Loop around London.

1187
01:00:57,640 --> 01:00:59,880
Speaker 1: Just the super Loop. I'm not going to do that,

1188
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:02,600
Speaker 1: so I don't want to be on any more public

1189
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 1: transport in the city every again. I might have to.

1190
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:05,840
Speaker 2: I think all the chieves are broken. I think I'm

1191
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:06,960
Speaker 2: going to be on the bus back.

1192
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:09,880
Speaker 1: Oh dang, well, thanks for coming on, Thank you for

1193
01:01:09,960 --> 01:01:12,800
Speaker 1: having me. Yeah, thanks for joining us on the podcast.

1194
01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:16,520
Speaker 1: Thanks for sharing. We're going to leave links in the

1195
01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:20,240
Speaker 1: description to everything Reasons to Say the book. You can

1196
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:22,720
Speaker 1: see what bends up to. He's doing some really cool

1197
01:01:22,760 --> 01:01:25,760
Speaker 1: stuff always, which is so cool being best buddies with

1198
01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:28,760
Speaker 1: Prince William, So I expect a selfie on there from

1199
01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:32,800
Speaker 1: him soon. But yeah, thank you again. If you have

1200
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:35,640
Speaker 1: made it this far, leave a little white heart emoji

1201
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:37,920
Speaker 1: down below, just so that we know that you've listened

1202
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:40,040
Speaker 1: all the way to the end and that you enjoyed

1203
01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:42,560
Speaker 1: this episode. As always, we also have full episodes on

1204
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 1: Netflix if you want to go and watch this talk

1205
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:50,080
Speaker 1: or future conversations that we have. I'll also leave links

1206
01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:52,320
Speaker 1: in the description down below. There's always a bunch of

1207
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:54,919
Speaker 1: stuff to go and explore and go in too further

1208
01:01:55,000 --> 01:01:58,240
Speaker 1: down there. So until next time, be safe, be kind,

1209
01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:00,600
Speaker 1: be gentle to yourself. We will talk a very sotain

1210
01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:04,960
Speaker 1: m hm.