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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Noelah.

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Speaker 3: They call me Ben.

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Speaker 4: We are joined as always with our super producer Dylan

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Speaker 4: the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 3: You are here.

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Speaker 4: That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 4: In twenty twenty five, welcome back, welcome back. Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 4: can you guys believe it? Twenty twenty five?

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Speaker 5: It seems like one of those futuristic numbers you see

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Speaker 5: in like sci fi movies from the eighties. I mean,

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Speaker 5: I guess it is almost have a flying car, didn't

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Speaker 5: I see?

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Speaker 3: We uf flying cars? Okay, we're almost there, guys, we

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Speaker 3: have flying cars.

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Speaker 4: We don't have them, but civilization does have some flying cars.

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Speaker 2: And somebody's got drones that are the size of SUVs,

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Speaker 2: so that's cool.

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Speaker 5: Somebody, I haven't drone the size of my fist. That's

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Speaker 5: equally impressive, right, And we also have further conspiracies. Afoot

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Speaker 5: fellow conspiracy Realist toward the end of the year. One

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Speaker 5: of the last recordings we did in twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 5: we looked at the case of Luigi Mangioni and we

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Speaker 5: took a moment, and we paused, and we said, let's

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Speaker 5: hold off on chapter two in hopes of acquiring more

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Speaker 5: information about this ongoing, deeply divisive situation. I think we

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Speaker 5: left off talking about that epic purp Walk, which has

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Speaker 5: been memed six ways to Sunday. It looks like the

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Speaker 5: cover of the most badass gangster ap album ever made.

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Speaker 3: Ted Kaczynski could never did you.

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Speaker 2: Guys see the pictures that were comparing Luigi Mangioni's the shirt,

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Speaker 2: the collared white shirt that he was wearing, and the

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Speaker 2: overshirt and then the one the JFK's assassin was wearing

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Speaker 2: in that moment when he is that the moment when

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Speaker 2: he yelled out he was a patsy. No, that was

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Speaker 2: a different moment.

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Speaker 3: You're saying that they were fit twins? Is that what

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Speaker 3: you're saying?

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Speaker 2: It looked they looked like twins.

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Speaker 3: It was so frit right, and then it goes.

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Speaker 4: It reminds me too of the extensive armchair speculation on

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Speaker 4: the CCTV shots of the guy getting a drink at

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Speaker 4: Starbucks versus the shots of Mangioni, some of which are

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Speaker 4: entirely AI slop.

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Speaker 3: By the way, who.

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Speaker 4: Is Luigi, you may be asking, Please listen to chapter

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Speaker 4: one before continuing. We'll tell you the brief, quick and

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Speaker 4: dirty for recap here right now. The headline is Luigi

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Speaker 4: Mangone is a guy from a prominent Maryland family who

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Speaker 4: is currently in custody on suspicion of murdering a United

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Speaker 4: Healthcare CEO named Brian Thompson.

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Speaker 5: I regular William zan Zinger. Sorry, I was a Bob

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Speaker 5: Dylan reference. He was part of a good family that

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Speaker 5: was involved in the politics of Maryland.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but isn't it weird hit the trust fund that

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Speaker 2: that family has, it's only around four million. It's only

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Speaker 2: around four million, And then you compare that, like just

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Speaker 2: to say that we're like a well off, influential family.

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Speaker 2: They only had a trust a four million, which is amazing.

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Speaker 2: I can't imagine having that.

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Speaker 5: I was about to say, Matt, you're really making me

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Speaker 5: feel that poor. No, No, I love it, I love but.

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Speaker 2: Think about the actual power players like in any city

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Speaker 2: like that, their trusts are.

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Speaker 5: In measurable perhaps, But so are you saying that you

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Speaker 5: think because he was from a less prominent family that

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Speaker 5: he was maybe made of patsy or I'm sorry.

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Speaker 2: It's to put the put the pieces of Sorry, yeah,

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Speaker 2: sometimes just trying to the concept I'm putting together here

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Speaker 2: is that the way it's spoken about, like he was

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Speaker 2: a high achiever in academics. He you know, he was

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Speaker 2: a part of this family that is wealthy and somewhat influential, right,

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Speaker 2: but it's nothing compared to the person that he killed,

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Speaker 2: and like that person's family and the people that run

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Speaker 2: in those circles.

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Speaker 4: And it's nothing compared to the fast food cabal of

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Speaker 4: families that clearly run Altoona, Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 2: Interesting, and it.

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Speaker 5: Does certainly seem like he is being made quite the

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Speaker 5: example of.

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Speaker 4: Let's just say yes, yes, Mangione. Going back to the

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Speaker 4: Purp Walk idea had received a ton of political theater.

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Speaker 4: The Mayor of New York was there during the Purp Walk,

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Speaker 4: as were other notable movers and shakers. Timothy McVeigh, who

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Speaker 4: was responsible for the nineteen ninety five domestic terrorist attack

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Speaker 4: in Oklahoma City, didn't get half the people that Luigi

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Speaker 4: Mangioni had on his purp walk, and that again is

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Speaker 4: another tea leaf that people are reading into to our

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Speaker 4: earlier question about setting an example.

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Speaker 5: I mean the photo op of it all where Eric

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Speaker 5: Adams is concerned with his police background and the whole

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Speaker 5: show of force, the pageantry, like you say, Ben, of

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Speaker 5: the whole thing.

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Speaker 3: It's pretty stark.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you could almost feel Batman perched up somewhere in

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Speaker 2: the background of Gotham City just watching we got him.

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Speaker 3: Well, all the memes we're comparing him to the Joker.

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Speaker 5: I mean, that's like a big thing that's all over

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Speaker 5: the internet, comparing my guess to the Joaquin Phoenix kind

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Speaker 5: of joker more than like freedom fighting bring down the

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Speaker 5: Man Joker than the Watch the World Burn Joker.

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Speaker 4: And it's kind of a I mean, it's not kind

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Speaker 4: of there's no kind of about it. In that we

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Speaker 4: see a larger context. We see a condemnation of the

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Speaker 4: observer society, the passive observer society that has sprouted and

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Speaker 4: blossomed in the in the wake of the information age.

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Speaker 4: Because there was an excellent question we were asking in

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Speaker 4: chapter one, what if Mangione was not so as we

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Speaker 4: say photogen or camera ready, what if he was schluppy,

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Speaker 4: what if he had bad hair or was snaggle toothed,

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Speaker 4: you know, just a.

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Speaker 3: Four pack rather than the eighth that he's clearly sporting.

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Speaker 4: Right without the gutters. And you know what I'm talking about,

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Speaker 4: fans of Rick and Mortar. Ah, yes, yes, those gutters.

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Speaker 4: So please do listen to chapter one before continuing. We're

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Speaker 4: gonna pause for a word from our sponsors, and then

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Speaker 4: we'll return. If you're not from the United States or

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Speaker 4: you took a holiday break from the news, we'll give

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Speaker 4: you a brief recap of the events in the most

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Speaker 4: factual way possible.

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Speaker 3: Here are the facts.

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Speaker 2: Hey, it is December fourth, twenty twenty four. Oh, it

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Speaker 2: feels like such a long time ago. Now almost exactly

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Speaker 2: a month from the day that we're recording.

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Speaker 3: Are you serious, right? Only that long? It does? It's

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Speaker 3: really wild. It was, as Adam Durrett said, a long December.

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Speaker 3: Oh jeez. The reason to believe is what do you believe?

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Speaker 4: And that's also one of the songs I was playing

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Speaker 4: on repeat, you guys, uh with feels so good by

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Speaker 4: Chuck The.

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Speaker 3: Smell of hospitals in winter.

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Speaker 4: A line Okay, it's it's just it's fantastic lyricism.

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Speaker 3: It's not good. Nine, it's not bad. Oh the way

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Speaker 3: the light reflects off a girl.

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Speaker 5: Crowded room with the girl. Yeah, I'm sorry, now, it's

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Speaker 5: that dure. It's a real romantic.

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Speaker 3: Much like Arboy, Luigi Menji romantic.

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Speaker 2: All right, so several years ago rings were so shiny.

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Speaker 4: Sorry, so several years ago. It was December fourth, twenty

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Speaker 4: twenty four. It's early in the morning.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 5: Brian Thompson, CEO of United Healthcare, was leaving.

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Speaker 3: The Marriott he was staying at.

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Speaker 5: Was this a fancy Marriot or just kind of a

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Speaker 5: regular Okay, all right? When I hear Marriott, I guess

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Speaker 5: I don't really think fancy. But in New York there

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Speaker 5: it's a brand. There's certainly are high end Marriotts.

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Speaker 3: It's a great term.

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Speaker 4: It's an term like that's how there are different kinds

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Speaker 4: of cancer one hundred.

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Speaker 3: Percent, thank you, bed.

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Speaker 5: So he was leaving the Marriott the fancy area, mind you,

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Speaker 5: that he was staying at, which is across the street

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Speaker 5: from the Hilton, the New York Hilton Midtown, where he

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Speaker 5: was attending an investor conference for United healthcare in one

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Speaker 5: of those you know, hotel ballroom type situations.

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Speaker 4: And what would have happened at that investor conference. What

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Speaker 4: would Thompson have said? We don't know. He did not

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Speaker 4: make it to the conference. He's walking along West fifty

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Speaker 4: fourth Street. Pull up a map if you wish. It's

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Speaker 4: about six forty five am local time. He's an early riser.

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Speaker 4: He is shot from behind by a person wearing a

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Speaker 4: mask and a hoodie wielding a mysterious handgun. Thompson is

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Speaker 4: shot three times. Essentially six shots are tempted, but only

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Speaker 4: three land. He's transported to local hospital, where he's pronounced

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Speaker 4: dead at seven twelve am.

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Speaker 5: Would he have been pronounced dead in transits or is

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Speaker 5: that something they don't even officially do until they get

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Speaker 5: him into a room in a doctor season?

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Speaker 3: Right? Was he doa It seems like he likely was

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Speaker 3: pretty doo.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we know the official pronunciation of death occurred there

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Speaker 4: at the hospital, and it did not take very long. No,

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Speaker 4: a lot of murders happened in New York. It did

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Speaker 4: not take very long for the authorities to put their

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Speaker 4: top men on the case.

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Speaker 3: Well, guys, I'm sorry, I don't mean to repeat myself.

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Speaker 3: I just want to hit it home one more time.

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Speaker 5: I heard about this on one of those television monitors,

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Speaker 5: those LCD monitors that you have in elevators and like

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Speaker 5: office buildings and hotels, and.

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Speaker 3: I had no idea that it happened in New York.

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Speaker 5: But I was in New York and our offices, which

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Speaker 5: is just a couple of blocks from this exact site.

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Speaker 5: And I was so crazy slammed that day that I

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Speaker 5: just didn't really even give another thought. I had no

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Speaker 5: idea that it had happened right down the street from

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Speaker 5: where I was.

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Speaker 2: It.

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Speaker 3: Wow, again, it feels like ages ago.

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Speaker 2: Before we get even further into exactly what happened that day,

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Speaker 2: can we just quickly talk about how strange it is

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Speaker 2: that whoever the killer was was outside of the exact

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Speaker 2: hotel entrance exit that Brian left from. Because it know

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Speaker 2: the well they're released that agree there were at least

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Speaker 2: three exits. Yeah, in this moment, we don't know that,

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Speaker 2: but it is very strange. And maybe it was just

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Speaker 2: a calculation about the closest way to get from Hotel

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Speaker 2: X to Hotel Y, right.

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Speaker 3: For sure, but it's so specific.

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Speaker 5: I'm really looking forward to maybe that's a weird way

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Speaker 5: of putting it to finding out how this guy stalked

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Speaker 5: and managed to get all of these details just right.

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Speaker 3: And it's not super easy.

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Speaker 4: Whomever that person may be, right, because Mangioni has not

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Speaker 4: been legally convicted. Mangioni has in fact pled not guilty

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Speaker 4: to all the charges, which we'll get to. We talked

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Speaker 4: about it a little bit in chapter one. One interesting

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Speaker 4: thing that the investigators know that I don't think the

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Speaker 4: public knows yet to the point about mapping out the

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Speaker 4: route or planning the hit. Which hotel room specifically was

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Speaker 4: Thompson in, right, And what was the relation of that

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Speaker 4: hotel room to the exit, and which exit was most

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Speaker 4: convenient for reaching the Hilton there? These these are questions

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Speaker 4: that the public doesn't have the answers.

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Speaker 3: To you, Was there a little bit of luck involved?

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Speaker 3: You know? I do wonder that as well.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And was it good luck or bad luck? I

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Speaker 4: guess it depends on your perspective, right, And.

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Speaker 5: I know we're going to get into it, but I

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Speaker 5: just think the not guilty plea in and of itself

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Speaker 5: is mega interesting for reasons.

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Speaker 4: Sure, right, right, Because often when people are ideologically motivated,

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Speaker 4: they want to plead guilty, they want visibility, they want

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Speaker 4: to further proselytize for their cause.

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Speaker 5: Well, it sure as craps seemed like he wanted to

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Speaker 5: get caught. It seems like something out of a comic

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Speaker 5: book in terms of like what he had on him, how.

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Speaker 3: Available he wants more or less.

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Speaker 5: I mean, it almost feels like the scene in seven

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Speaker 5: where John Doe puts his hands up and walks out

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Speaker 5: and says, detective.

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Speaker 3: You know it was God. Seven was great.

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Speaker 4: It's a rollicking buddy comedy that's perfect for feel good. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: it feels so good.

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Speaker 2: Well, it also seems almost too perfect.

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Speaker 4: Right a little bit, a little bit, yes, it does.

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Speaker 4: And this is an excellent setup levels to that one.

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Speaker 4: Because Mangione was apprehended he is currently in custody. On

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Speaker 4: December ninth, you know, several years ago. Five days after

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Speaker 4: that shooting, authorities arrested a twenty six year old man

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Speaker 4: named Luigi Mangione at a McDonald's in Altoona, Pennsylvania. He

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Speaker 4: was quickly charged with the murder of Brian Thompson, along

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Speaker 4: with a rogues gallery of other related charges, including, you know,

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Speaker 4: illegal possession of certain firearms and paraphernalia, terrorism charges. They

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Speaker 4: hit him with everything they could.

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Speaker 2: Initially it was weapons charges, just to get him out

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Speaker 2: of that McDonald's and into you know, a holding cell

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Speaker 2: for a little while until they brought the other ones.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, oh yeah, they threw a book.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, they got a legal foot in the door, right,

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Speaker 4: And then once they had possession of him, habeas corpus

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Speaker 4: and so on, they were able to add on the

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Speaker 4: other charges, indeed, the ones that they were truly looking for.

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Speaker 4: So this guy takes the Internet by storm. He becomes

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Speaker 4: a full keyro to some and anti hero to others,

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Speaker 4: clear and present danger to a lot of billionaires. If

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Speaker 4: we're being honest, we all remember when gosh, it was

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Speaker 4: either Elon Musk or Adrian Dittman who went on X

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Speaker 4: and said, hey, guys, it's not based to kill CEOs,

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Speaker 4: it's not Jesus.

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Speaker 3: Indeed, it's actually what's the opposite of base acidic? Now,

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Speaker 3: I don't know, whack is sort of old school.

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Speaker 5: There's definitely something that's the opposite of based cringe lame,

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Speaker 5: Oh cringe, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I think cringe works. Yeah, goofy. Anyway, so just weird,

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Speaker 3: it's a little weird.

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Speaker 4: It's it's oddly specific if we're being diplomatic. So we

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Speaker 4: talked about this in chapter one. There's a vast narrative

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Speaker 4: war continuing now between the public and established media outlets,

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Speaker 4: as well as institutions of power, law enforcement, the judiciary,

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Speaker 4: and you know, the financial people.

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Speaker 5: Well, it does kind of make you think of the

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Speaker 5: whole idea of like one person's terrorist as another person's

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Speaker 5: freedom fighter, or like thinking about Robinhood, who was a menace,

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Speaker 5: you know, to the Sheriff of Nottingham and all of

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Speaker 5: the nobles and all of that, but in fact he

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Speaker 5: was kind of murdering people and at the very least

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Speaker 5: stealing from people committing crimes. And so depending on which

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Speaker 5: side of that divide you are on, you know, he

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Speaker 5: was either you know, enemy of the state or you know,

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Speaker 5: doing you a solid. And then it becomes the question

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Speaker 5: of like how do we view these corporations, Like are

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Speaker 5: they villainous enough that in this fight for equity and

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Speaker 5: the ability to live a I guess what's the dignified life?

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Speaker 5: Like are these companies and the CEOs that level of

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Speaker 5: villain that they should be executed?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 4: What are the consequences? And we have to understand the

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Speaker 4: larger context here. If you are tuning in to this

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Speaker 4: show and you are not from the United States, or

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Speaker 4: you have never visited this crazy, crazy place, then you

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Speaker 4: may not be aware that there is a bit of

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Speaker 4: a There was a bit of preface to this. There

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Speaker 4: has been an increased division of haves and have nots

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Speaker 4: in this country, which is approaching the Gilded Age of

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Speaker 4: the nineteen twenties. There are things like or cases like

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Speaker 4: the Sackler family in the world of medicine, which clearly

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Speaker 4: got away with aiding and abetting and escalating an opioid

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Speaker 4: crisis which continues today. The public by and large is

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Speaker 4: primed to consider this socioeconomic demographic of the haves as

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Speaker 4: enemies one hundred percent.

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Speaker 5: I just I saw a video yesterday actually on Instagram

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Speaker 5: where it was a British reporter going around to people

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Speaker 5: on the street and ask them how much they thought

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Speaker 5: certain medical supplies cost in America, and they were shocked

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Speaker 5: that people were like, how much do you think an

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Speaker 5: EpiPen cost? They're like eighty dollars, Like, no, six hundred dollars.

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Speaker 5: You know, how much do you think an ambulance ride costs?

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Speaker 5: And the guys well, I guess it depends on where

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Speaker 5: you live, but what one hundred dollars, one hundred pounds,

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Speaker 5: twenty five hundred dollars, it's wild.

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Speaker 4: And then add to that, of course, add to that

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Speaker 4: the follow up question where they say, well, what if

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Speaker 4: someone dies because they can't get insulin?

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Speaker 3: And then the Americans go, oh.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that that happens, and it's just fine, that's it too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I actually have a quick story about this, guys,

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Speaker 2: and just to bring it personal for a moment, right

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Speaker 2: after all this stuff went down, not right after two

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Speaker 2: weeks after all this went down with Brian Thompson's stuff,

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Speaker 2: my dad kind of had a little heart situation while

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Speaker 2: he was out with my mom and had to get

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Speaker 2: picked up in an ambulance. And that hasn't it's only

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Speaker 2: happened one other time. And it was really scary because

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Speaker 2: I just got a phone call, you know, and h

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Speaker 2: headed that way where they are, and it was a

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Speaker 2: medical emergency where like he needed that ambulance. It wasn't

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Speaker 2: a you know, it was It's nice that an ambulance

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Speaker 2: could take us there. My dog is playing in the background,

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Speaker 2: but he he got one of what do you call him?

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Speaker 3: Ben uh non consensual.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, okay, you got one of those.

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Speaker 3: That's it. I do call them that, yes, yes, so.

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Speaker 2: We got one of those. And uh, he is in

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Speaker 2: his seventies, so he you know, when he worked for

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Speaker 2: a long time, he had really good healthcare with his job,

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Speaker 2: good healthcare again, like one of the higher levels of

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Speaker 2: healthcare that you can get. Now he's on Medicare and

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Speaker 2: he's he's old enough to get those benefits. It didn't

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Speaker 2: actually hurt him that much financially to take this ambulance

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Speaker 2: right in to then get seen by a specialist to

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Speaker 2: then you know, have a bunch of tests done on

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Speaker 2: him and get drugs so that he can leave. And

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Speaker 2: he was okay. But for anybody else who's not in

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Speaker 2: their seventies, who didn't work all their life in that way,

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Speaker 2: paying into that system, that situation of needing to be

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Speaker 2: picked up because there's something wrong with your heart and

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Speaker 2: then you have to go hang out in the hospital

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Speaker 2: and they want to keep you and run tests and

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Speaker 2: all of that, that is a life changing event, not

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Speaker 2: for your health, but for your ability to pay for

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Speaker 2: everything else in your life. Because that just sits there now.

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Speaker 2: It will break you.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it may be astonishing for people from other developed

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Speaker 4: countries to hear this hard truth. The majority of US

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Speaker 4: citizens are one medical catastrophe away from poverty, and it

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Speaker 4: is incredibly expensive to be poor in this country. The

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Speaker 4: safety net is continually eroding, and it's a long pattern.

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Speaker 4: You can look up phrases like starve the beast, We

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Speaker 4: welcome you to that related conspiracy. And I think it's

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Speaker 4: also fascinating that while we're giving a quick recap of

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Speaker 4: the Mangione situation conspiracy series of events, we're immediately also

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Speaker 4: talking about the larger context of healthcare. This is front

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Speaker 4: of mind for everybody as soon as they learned the

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Speaker 4: identity of the shooting victim. And it's weird too, guys,

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Speaker 4: because it seems, despite this huge divide now between the

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Speaker 4: haves and have nots, the public and the establishment media,

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Speaker 4: one thing everybody or the majority of people seem to

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Speaker 4: agree upon is that Mangioni, while not yet convicted, is

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Speaker 4: the murderer. The majority of people think the guy did

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Speaker 4: it based on some of the evidence we explore in

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Speaker 4: chapter one.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and they're stoked about it, like they think it

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Speaker 5: was a great thing to have done.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. We mentioned what was found in his backpack, right,

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Speaker 2: I think that was episode one.

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Speaker 5: It was Yeah, Canopoly money and what has been determined

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Speaker 5: to have been a ghost guy, which I believe was

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Speaker 5: made up of three D per into components. The kind

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Speaker 5: of schematics can be downloaded and then you know, you

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Speaker 5: can actually print them yourself if you have the right equipment.

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Speaker 4: As well as a suppressor, yeah, which was key, as

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Speaker 4: well as a purported manifesto.

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Speaker 5: We hit the internet pretty quick, and although a lot

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Speaker 5: of people were skeptical about the veracity of the stippets

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Speaker 5: that were being seen or passed around, it did turn out.

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Speaker 3: That most of them were right.

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Speaker 2: Really Okay, See, I wanted to ask you guys about

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Speaker 2: that because I've seen a couple of different versions. Maybe

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Speaker 2: and then you know, I'm hearing that a lot of

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Speaker 2: it is false, But then a couple of them were real,

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Speaker 2: And then I think it was The New York Post

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Speaker 2: made a whole documentary that they put on there, yea,

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Speaker 2: and they read directly from it, which made me feel

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Speaker 2: a little better. Even though it's a New York.

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Speaker 4: Post, right, but the documentary is given the time constraints

402
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Speaker 4: the documentary is working under. I think they did a

403
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Speaker 4: pretty good job the title. The title in aurse to

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Speaker 4: Humility was New York Post presents Luigi Mangioti monster or.

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Speaker 5: Mart see Brownie points for making up that title?

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Speaker 3: Is good, Okay, I to check it out.

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Speaker 4: We're the first people to uh pay respects and give

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Speaker 4: credit where it's due on that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 3: Do we love the New York Post overall as a source? Pass?

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Speaker 4: But do we like the documentary well done with the

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Speaker 4: information available at the time?

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Speaker 3: Is that fair? I think so fair? But Ben, did

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Speaker 3: you notice though? So?

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Speaker 5: Do we feel like we do know in some part

415
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Speaker 5: the contents of that manifesto? Has the full thing been printed?

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Speaker 5: Is that what's in the documentary?

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Speaker 3: There's a war on truth? I would argue that's interesting.

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Speaker 5: You still feel that it's it's it's iffy.

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Speaker 4: The courts will decide, which I know is such a

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Speaker 4: non answer. But parts of it, parts of it have

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Speaker 4: been repeatedly reported.

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Speaker 3: I guess that's what I would.

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Speaker 4: Multiple sources confirm different parts of it. But yeah, in

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Speaker 4: the in the documentary, to Matt's earlier point, they do

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Speaker 4: read directly from it, so we know that the press

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Speaker 4: does have what is agreed to be the manifesto actual.

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Speaker 5: All I was getting at, was that the snippet that

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Speaker 5: I saw right away ended up being repeated later as

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Speaker 5: this is this is accurate, This is like.

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Speaker 4: Oh the parasite statement, or that's the statement on supporting

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Speaker 4: the Feds.

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Speaker 3: That's right. Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: It's just so tough when this kind of thing happens,

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Speaker 2: because we're because we are in the same boat as

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Speaker 2: everybody else, trying to go trying to figure out, okay,

436
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Speaker 2: is that the actual thing? And who says that to

437
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Speaker 2: the actual thing?

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Speaker 4: Again, I'm going to lean into the phrase a war

439
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Speaker 4: on truth, and perhaps the man Gione case is already

440
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Speaker 4: a casualty of that continuing war. So previously on stuff

441
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 4: they don't want you to know, we chose to hold

442
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:52,720
Speaker 4: off on chapter two and hopes that more details would emerge.

443
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 4: Just like you, folks, we have been tuned in, We

444
00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 4: have been following things, reaching out to folks in some cases,

445
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,679
Speaker 4: and now we have returned. There will doubtlessly be more updates,

446
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,680
Speaker 4: maybe even a chapter three or something on Strange News.

447
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:10,399
Speaker 4: We'll have to see how it works out, but perhaps

448
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 4: for now we'll take a break for a word from

449
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,080
Speaker 4: our sponsors, and then we'll dive into the current affairs.

450
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 4: And the larger context. Here's where it gets crazy.

451
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:27,360
Speaker 3: All right.

452
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,240
Speaker 4: Can't remember exactly where we put a bow on this

453
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 4: in chapter one, but I do believe we mentioned MANGIONI

454
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:39,199
Speaker 4: had after his arrest in Altoona, Pennsylvania, he waived his

455
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:43,200
Speaker 4: right to an extradition hearing, which is where you could say,

456
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:48,480
Speaker 4: don't take me out of Pennsylvania. He said, yeah, no, fine,

457
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 4: do it take me to New York, right, which is

458
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 4: again where the murder occurred. We know the judge that

459
00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:00,880
Speaker 4: will preside over the current legal proceedings, that is Catherine

460
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 4: Parker of Magistrate Judge. The trial date I think is

461
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 4: yet to be determined still, if convicted on these charges.

462
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 4: We gave the list of the charges in chapter one.

463
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:19,199
Speaker 4: If convicted, he will probably face life in prison without

464
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 4: the possibility of parole. So it's not a death penalty situation.

465
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,680
Speaker 4: I think is the big differentiator here.

466
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 2: And yeah, since that time, he's pled not guilty in

467
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 2: a court and said no, that is not me. I'm

468
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 2: not guilty to both this murder charge and the terrorism charges,

469
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 2: the heavier stuff. I think it would be pretty tough

470
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:40,919
Speaker 2: to plead not guilty to the weapons charges that he

471
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 2: faced in Pennsylvania. I don't know how all that's going

472
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:43,640
Speaker 2: to play out.

473
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, at the end of the day, I mean, despite

474
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 5: how damning the stuff he had in his backpack might seem,

475
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 5: isn't this all relatively circumstantial evidence?

476
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 3: That's the thing? Right, So the.

477
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 2: Idea that he had was fake, It was fake, but

478
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 2: was used at that hostel in New York.

479
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 5: Okay, Okay. All I'm saying is it's not illegal to

480
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 5: be sketchy, you know.

481
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, that's all we know.

482
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 3: So it is true.

483
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 4: But it's an excellent question about what defines circumstantial right.

484
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 4: The concept of circumstantial evidence has been unfairly weaponized against

485
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 4: people in the US in the past. There are countless

486
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:33,200
Speaker 4: examples of that, and you can see you can see

487
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 4: some terrifying and disturbing examples of that in shows like

488
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 4: Wrongful Conviction with our pals Jason and Maggie. Do you

489
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 4: check it out? We also know to this narrative war.

490
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 4: We also know that different social media platforms we're shutting

491
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 4: down support of Luigi Mangioni. We're not condoning any actions. Again,

492
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,399
Speaker 4: we try to be very fair in saying this individual

493
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 4: has not yet been convicted of a crime. But to

494
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 4: your earlier point, Noal, there were people lauding this man,

495
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,120
Speaker 4: romanticizing them right like Ted Bundy back in the day.

496
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,199
Speaker 2: Oh dude. In that New York Post documentary, there's a

497
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 2: comedian named Jordaane something, a very funny comedian who works

498
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 2: out of New York, who had a show at the

499
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 2: Comedy Seller in New York that night, and he describes

500
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,719
Speaker 2: how as soon as he got on stage, he started

501
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,719
Speaker 2: talking about the situation, how the CEO of United Healthcare

502
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 2: got killed, and how much support, how there was laughter

503
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 2: and clapping at just the fact that this healthcare CEO

504
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 2: got murdered, and they wanted like he made a joke

505
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 2: about other CEOs and everybody was laughing and clapping and

506
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 2: applauding right after it happened.

507
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 5: And I guess it was on SNL, but Chris Rock

508
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 5: made a pretty good joke talking about like, oh, it's

509
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 5: anytime a person with family and you know, kids or

510
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 5: whatever is killed, it's a tragedy and nobody should be

511
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:57,879
Speaker 5: excited about this.

512
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 3: But sometimes drug dealers shot yes, oh.

513
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 4: You did say that, and and this, uh, that's clearly

514
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 4: comparing Thompson to you know, a drug dealer and pointing

515
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 4: to one of the great divides of the discourse here,

516
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,400
Speaker 4: which is how directly do you have to be involved

517
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 4: in a murder or someone's death to be considered the murderer?

518
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 4: You know what I mean, physically pulling the trigger or

519
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 4: green lighting an AI slot program that denies claims. The

520
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 4: news is still coming out. A lot of medical professionals

521
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 4: have come out and without condoning the murder of Thompson,

522
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 4: Let's be careful with that. They have said that in

523
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 4: their experience, United Healthcare killed people. That that's effectively what

524
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 4: they've said. They have submitted this claim. This person's in

525
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 4: a coma, for instance, desperately in need of some sort

526
00:27:54,320 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 4: of circulatory or cardiac medication and UHC or their bought

527
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:05,919
Speaker 4: their chat GPT said no, this, this is so crazy

528
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 4: because we also see the stressand effect I think we

529
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 4: referenced in chapter one. Reddit was removing threads about UHC

530
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 4: and Thompson. There was a fundraiser to pay Mangioni's legal

531
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 4: fees and go fund me removed it. Certain establishment print

532
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 4: and online institutions in the media have been scrubbing their

533
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 4: comment sections when they release, especially tone deaf op eds

534
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 4: like the one who said Brian Thompson is the real

535
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 4: working class hero.

536
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I.

537
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 4: Don't know if that's entirely accurate.

538
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 3: So all right, we knew.

539
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 2: It's a tough thing for all of us, I think,

540
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 2: to grapple with, right, So you gotta sympathize with every

541
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 2: human being that is taking in what has occurred and

542
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 2: then trying to form their own thoughts on it, because

543
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 2: it is it does feel weighted in one direction, at

544
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 2: least to me, which is resource.

545
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, with every source you read, you know, the discourse

546
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 4: on x or Twitter is very different from what the

547
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 4: New York Times wants you to take away from the

548
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 4: reportings very easy with just a few tweaks, you know,

549
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 4: a few philosophical editions of a seraph to change what

550
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 4: people take away from factual information. And if something doesn't

551
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 4: fit the narrative, as we'll see in our later Stockholm episode,

552
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 4: it's devilishly easy to downplay, diminish or remove that entirely.

553
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 4: Mangioni is adding to his legal team. He has one

554
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,959
Speaker 4: of the best lawyers in New York right now working

555
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 4: with him. He also recently took on the services or

556
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 4: the advice of a guy named Craig Rothfeld. Craig Rothfeld,

557
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 4: former inmate him self, known as a defense strategy consultant.

558
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 4: He was most recently and most prominently in the news

559
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 4: for consulting with Harvey Weinstein from earlier.

560
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an interesting thing, a prison consultant, like, I

561
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 2: don't know how to make your time in there better,

562
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 2: how to communicate better outside. I don't really understand it.

563
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 2: I've read that in page six. Yeah, right underneath there

564
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 2: it says like a gossip or something. So again, with

565
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 2: a lot of this information, it's just trying to figure

566
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 2: out is that just something someone is saying and then

567
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 2: page six is saying it, or is it actually happening.

568
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 3: He did appear.

569
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 4: We know that Rothel did appear in some legal proceedings.

570
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 4: Okay with Mangioni. In terms of what this defense strategy

571
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 4: and prison consultation may be, how we define it. You

572
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 4: can find quotes in page six is a tabloid, let's

573
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 4: be honest, but you can find quotations with Rothfeld saying

574
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,959
Speaker 4: stuff about how to help someone survive the first ninety

575
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 4: days of lock up, which are incredibly frightened. You know,

576
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 4: prison is, especially in the United States, somewhat of a

577
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 4: hostile environment just.

578
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 2: To pend Yeah, a little bit, a little bit, and guys,

579
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 2: by just off of that note, we need to look

580
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 2: into what's going on with Fulton County's prison system. There's

581
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 2: some craziness going on. We need to do some deep

582
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 2: dives into that.

583
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely.

584
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 5: I don't think I've heard the scuttle butt there, but

585
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 5: I don't doubt it. I know there's been some pretty

586
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 5: gnarly stuff in the past.

587
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 3: But human rights violations, yeah, exactly.

588
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 4: Stuff, Yeah, letting people die essentially, like denying them needful care.

589
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 4: And we're not talking about oh gosh, I'm glad we're

590
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 4: we have to do an episode on it. We're not

591
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 4: talking about cosmetic stuff, you know. We're not talking about

592
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 4: having Mana Zuma's rev or just a bad weekend of pooping.

593
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 4: We're talking about people who died and could have been

594
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 4: saved quite easily.

595
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, like bedbugs and stuff that end up taking your life,

596
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 2: which is it's a whole thing.

597
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 4: Dirty water, that's a huge thing. Sanitation or lack of

598
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 4: sanitation is still killing millions of people every year.

599
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 2: But the hey, but the prison Luigi Mangioni's in is

600
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 2: a little different. Yes, it's a little nicer. It doesn't

601
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 2: mean it's happy or safe.

602
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 3: It's still hostile.

603
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, but it's like frenemy hostile instead of you know,

604
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 4: enemy soldier hostile.

605
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 3: It's a rough one.

606
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 4: Nobody wants to be there so far, because inequality has

607
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 4: not quite gotten to the point yet where a bunch

608
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 4: of people are purposely tried to get into prison. I

609
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 4: would argue, it's all the way. I would argue, Unfortunately, it's.

610
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 3: All the way.

611
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 4: We already see isolated cases over the course of this

612
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 4: show wherein people will purposely botch a bank robbery just

613
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 4: so they can get locked up. It's again a damning

614
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 4: condemnation of the current state of affairs. Have you guys

615
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 4: been looking at these polls various groups, not really media

616
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 4: groups all the time, but nonpartisan boffins and eggheads have

617
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 4: been conducting polls in the United States, and they have

618
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 4: found an astonishing divide between pupil One pole was about

619
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 4: a thousand college students, and they asked these college students,

620
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 4: what should happen if Mangione has found guilty.

621
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, that is a good question, because it seems like

622
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 5: so many of his supporters already think that he is guilty.

623
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 5: So like, immediately my mind was jumping to, like, will

624
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 5: there be like riots in the streets, like justice for Luigi?

625
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 5: But all the people that would support him already think

626
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 5: he did.

627
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 4: It right, right, And we do have to just in

628
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 4: the spirit of knowing about the world old around you,

629
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 4: we do have to say it is always important to

630
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 4: talk about jury nullification as a concept. Maybe not in

631
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 4: this case, but I don't know about you, guys. I

632
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 4: was surprised to see how many people we're picking up

633
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 4: that old and very important concept and propagating it. Do

634
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 4: we want to say what jury nullification is real quick

635
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 4: for anybody who hasn't heard it.

636
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm always a little bit fuzzy on it, and

637
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 5: I know it's the kind of thing that people if

638
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 5: you say it, you're supposedly if you say you believe

639
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 5: in jury nullification when you're getting picked for jury duty,

640
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,359
Speaker 5: that they will exclude you. It's one of those like

641
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 5: hacks people talk about. But yeah, please do remind.

642
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 2: Us, well, the whole point of trial by jury is

643
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 2: to have a unified decision by that jury. That jury

644
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 2: comes through and says this is what we the jury

645
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 2: feel happened. Right, Is this person guilty or not guilty,

646
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 2: and what are they guilty of? And if you've got

647
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:56,399
Speaker 2: one person on that twelve person team that stands up

648
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 2: in those the little meetings you know that happen in

649
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,839
Speaker 2: the back after the trial is concluded and says, no,

650
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 2: I don't think this person is guilty.

651
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 3: Is not just a hung jury though? Is that the

652
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 3: same as jury nullification?

653
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 4: What I think we're getting toward is the idea that

654
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 4: jury nullification says, look, we're jurors in a criminal trial,

655
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 4: and be the one person, to your example, Matt in

656
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 4: this scenario, who stands up and says, I'm not gonna

657
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 4: say he's guilty. I'm not going to say they're guilty

658
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 4: because I know they broke the law. Sure, but I

659
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:37,359
Speaker 4: think the law is wrong. Yeah, So you're putting the statute,

660
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 4: the law, the policy on trial instead of the human individual.

661
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 5: Hence, coming forth in the selection process and speaking out

662
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 5: like in favor of nullification could be a red flag

663
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 5: for the attorneys that are going to pick you or

664
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 5: cut you.

665
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 4: How would you respond if this case was for felony

666
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:01,359
Speaker 4: possession of cannabis And if you're there with you know,

667
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:03,879
Speaker 4: like a fish shirt on, and you've got your hemp

668
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,879
Speaker 4: necklace and you say, well, I think everybody should have

669
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 4: more weed, then they're probably not going to pick you

670
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 4: for that jury.

671
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know if you guys saw some of

672
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 2: these op eds in some of the main news publications

673
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 2: that are saying things like, all you people out there

674
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 2: that are trying to get on the jury for you know,

675
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 2: to nullify this case, you should really just abstain and

676
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,240
Speaker 2: like that'd be way more noble than trying to trying

677
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 2: to sneak onto the jury so you can make him not.

678
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 4: Guilty bass haabotage the case, yes, to trigger a mistrial

679
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 4: or ye?

680
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 2: Well, because that's the scary thing with jury nullification. It

681
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:41,399
Speaker 2: doesn't have to be a caricature of a person, right

682
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 2: that goes up there for a case. It could be

683
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 2: just any old person that pretends to not have been

684
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 2: wronged by healthcare in the past, who pretends that they're

685
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 2: just going to go on and be a completely objective

686
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,839
Speaker 2: observer of this trial. But really they're going in as

687
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 2: almost an undercover agent.

688
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 3: But would that not be considered contempt of court?

689
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 1: Uh?

690
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 3: No, not contempt of court.

691
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 4: Contempt of court would require them to do interruptive behaviors

692
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:14,280
Speaker 4: to to make a scene.

693
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 3: Basically, sure, but if you're being dishonest for the purposes

694
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 3: of screwing the whole system up, isn't that in and

695
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 3: of itself an act of contempt towards the court? How

696
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 3: do you prove it?

697
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 2: How do you prove that if somebody did that unless

698
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 2: you unless that person then goes on a bunch of

699
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 2: you know, goes on Mari cre But whatever goes on,

700
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 2: it talks, you know, to to Heraldo for a long.

701
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 4: Time, publishes a book while the trial is ongoing. Now

702
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 4: that's a good point called why I sabotage the Manchioti trial?

703
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

704
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 4: Uh then then also, you know a good example of this,

705
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 4: of course, the seminal work Twelve Angry Men.

706
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 3: Do.

707
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 4: Also check out an amazing film, Devil's Advocate. There's a

708
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 4: jury selection scene in there.

709
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 5: The new Clinice would movie Juror number two is actually

710
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,840
Speaker 5: quite good and has some shades of this kind of

711
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 5: thing in it as well.

712
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, and in the Devil's Advocate jury selection seen specifically,

713
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 4: you can see a defense crew working assiduously to kind

714
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 4: of plumb the depths of the human personalities in their

715
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:25,799
Speaker 4: favorite Yeah, or like whatever is advantageous to them.

716
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 3: That's what I mean.

717
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, and that's that's happening now, And.

718
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 5: That happens on both the prosecution and the defense side,

719
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 5: and they're both allowed to do that, and it's like

720
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 5: kind of the name of the game.

721
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's why they make the big bucks. If we

722
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 4: go to this poll we mentioned earlier, College Pulse conducted

723
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 4: a pretty small sample size. They asked a thousand college

724
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 4: students what would happen if mangio And was found guilty,

725
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 4: and most people did respond. Thirty two percent of the

726
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 4: participants in the survey said he should be sentenced to

727
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 4: life in jail. Well, but he should have the possibility

728
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 4: to be paroled, and fourteen percent said no, put him

729
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 4: in jail for life, never parole him. Twenty six percent

730
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,359
Speaker 4: essentially said just give him a couple of years, give

731
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 4: him a fixed term, and then let him out. And

732
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,320
Speaker 4: then two percent said, I don't care about the laws,

733
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 4: he should get the death penalty.

734
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 3: Who strong wonder what class those people belong to.

735
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, But I think even more telling is when the

736
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 2: poll goes further and asks if the respondent sympathize with

737
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 2: the suspect.

738
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, more than fifty percent of those respondents say they

739
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 4: strongly sympathize with MANGIONI because a hard fact about living

740
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 4: life in the United States is that you know someone

741
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 4: who died because of the privatized healthcare system. It touched you,

742
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 4: you know, and what was it. A further percentage said

743
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:02,240
Speaker 4: they somewhat sympathize with Mangoni and twenty six percent said

744
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 4: I'm neutral about it, and only about a fifth of them,

745
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 4: well around twenty percent said they either don't sympathize or

746
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 4: strongly do not sympathize.

747
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 3: What was the sample size of this one thousand college students?

748
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 3: Oh jeez, that's a pretty small sample size. It's a

749
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,839
Speaker 3: small sample size and pretty specific background. I don't know.

750
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 2: Well, but isn't that interesting college students? I would I

751
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 2: would pause it. And maybe I'm wrong here. Someone that

752
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 2: age probably hasn't gone through a lot of health crises

753
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 2: in their life yet, at least for personally right, well,

754
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 2: maybe for their family like.

755
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:39,840
Speaker 3: You and your dad and stuff. They could have certainly yeah.

756
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 2: Again within the family or something, so they know, and

757
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 2: as you said, Ben, they've been touched by it, but

758
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 2: they themselves have not probably gone through a lot of

759
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 2: things like twenty six year old MANGIONI went through with

760
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 2: his like the pins that he had in his back,

761
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 2: and that's the problems that he was having.

762
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

763
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just interested to know like the thinking of

764
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:00,399
Speaker 2: somebody who is that young.

765
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 3: Yeah.

766
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's interesting because again, you're you could say you're

767
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,800
Speaker 4: directly affected by a tragedy if it happens to someone

768
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 4: you love. But there is a differentiation there, Matt, in

769
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 4: terms of being physically yourself affected by an injury or

770
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 4: a medical condition. And the reason I started out this

771
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,919
Speaker 4: poll pointing out that small sample size is because there's

772
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 4: another pole from Noork, not NARCNORK. NOORK is the National

773
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 4: Opinion Research Center out of University of Chicago.

774
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 3: It's the wonkiest name of all time.

775
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 4: They changed it, just like the Learning Channel morphed into

776
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 4: TLC when they stopped caring whether people learn stuff, and

777
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 4: now National Opinion Research Center is just Noork in o RC.

778
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 4: Their pole is fascinating because they found seventy percent of

779
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:58,479
Speaker 4: the people they asked about Mangione they said he does

780
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 4: not hold all the respect onsibility for Thompson's.

781
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:03,359
Speaker 3: Murder, even if he did it.

782
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 4: Wow, which is a weird bit of cognitive Parkour.

783
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:10,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, who did it?

784
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 3: Well, he sort of did it.

785
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, he printed a gun and traveled and

786
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 2: did all the research and stocked. The guy pulled the trigger.

787
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 4: But you know, yeah, that's such a weird. That's such

788
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 4: a weird, like Jersey shrug.

789
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:28,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm just saying that.

790
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 2: That is if Luigi Mangione actually is not convicted.

791
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:33,760
Speaker 3: Not convicted yet. Uh.

792
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 4: And we also know groupies have started gathering outside the

793
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 4: facility where he's held. We talked about that lookalike contest

794
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 4: that occurred, or the series of lookalike contests that occurred.

795
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,879
Speaker 4: There's already a documentary out we mentioned earlier. New York

796
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 4: Post presents Luigi manjouan monster or martyr And going back

797
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,760
Speaker 4: to our earlier thing about war on truth, Ai Slop

798
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 4: has also entered the chat. Did you guys see the

799
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 4: fake mug shot?

800
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 2: No, I'm gonna look at it right now. I haven't

801
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:05,839
Speaker 2: seen it.

802
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 3: Yeah.

803
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 4: Over on threads, which is kind of meta Instagram's attempt

804
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:16,439
Speaker 4: at Twitter. There was this picture that went viral which

805
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 4: appeared to be the official New York mug shot of

806
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 4: Luigi Manjione. It was later pretty soon after it was

807
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 4: confirmed to be AI generated, but the damage was done.

808
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 4: You know, you print the wild claims on the front

809
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 4: page and do retractions on wait for it, page six.

810
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 3: Hey they call backs, we're doing. It's a callback episode.

811
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know.

812
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 4: I think this is a tangential point, but perhaps important

813
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 4: for upcoming explorations on this show. It's misinformation, right, it's

814
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 4: not disinformation. People aren't necessarily attempting to sway the narrative

815
00:43:55,600 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 4: through deceitful means. But it's spreading because people are mistaking

816
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 4: alive for the truth. And we're going to see I positive,

817
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:07,319
Speaker 4: you guys, We're going to see way more misinformation in

818
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 4: the man Gioni case as it goes on. The narrative

819
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 4: is deeply divided. I don't want to sound like a

820
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 4: broken record, but we also see some claims that go

821
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 4: against the official narrative. Already there is a looming war

822
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 4: on truth, weaponized AI disinfo and miss info is only

823
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 4: going to grow, right, It's it's unstoppable at this point.

824
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:35,839
Speaker 4: A favorite conspiracy theories, you guys, one of the ones

825
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 4: we've mentioned just a little bit in chapter one, the

826
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:44,360
Speaker 4: idea that Luigi Manjona was framed, The idea that despite

827
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 4: having a manifesto, having the ghost gun components, having the cash,

828
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 4: and you know, looking a hell of a lot like

829
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 4: the guy on camera that he was somehow framed. He

830
00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:01,720
Speaker 4: said he did not have that tenth in US cash

831
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 4: and I think two thousand and foreign currency. He said

832
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 4: it was planted on him, that someone just slipped ten

833
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 4: k into his backpack.

834
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 2: Luigi himself stated that.

835
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:14,759
Speaker 3: He did very interesting.

836
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 2: Interesting. I mean, well, now we do know Ken. I

837
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 2: feel like it's confirmed. We do know that he was

838
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 2: somewhat disconnected from his family. His family was searching for

839
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:32,319
Speaker 2: him because he had been living in Hawaii for a

840
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,359
Speaker 2: while and then lost contact with his family. I mean,

841
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:37,839
Speaker 2: that feels like a situation where if you do have

842
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 2: some money, maybe you're carrying around large sums of cash

843
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,800
Speaker 2: with you if you're just traveling from one place to another,

844
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:49,240
Speaker 2: which is not illegal, no, but I mean it seems

845
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 2: like something you might do.

846
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it seems like a reasonable and plausible action,

847
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 4: right you're on the move. This goes deeper. The Internet

848
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 4: is getting nuts and bananas for this. There are so

849
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:08,320
Speaker 4: many unverified claims and wild speculation blossoming across every social

850
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 4: media platform. You can imagine somebody is probably on Farmers

851
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 4: Only talking about this right now. I feel like we

852
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,359
Speaker 4: should set off twenty twenty five by mentioning Farmers Only

853
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 4: in every episode, in every episode, every episode, boarding every

854
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 4: episode Farmer's Only. So I rewatched all of Rick and

855
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 4: Morty and it is getting too bitch shows. But it's

856
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 4: crazy because this kind of stuff, misinformation or speculation, it

857
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 4: is asymmetric. It's so easy to create it, and it's

858
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:44,399
Speaker 4: so difficult to tamp it down. It's whack a mole,

859
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 4: you know. I mean, look, there are platforms trying to

860
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 4: shut down things. The rationale can be any genre of

861
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 4: we know best, but they're playing real life whack a mole.

862
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:01,719
Speaker 4: For every one statement that they don't like that they

863
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 4: take down, ten others spring up in its wake.

864
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 3: You know.

865
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,360
Speaker 4: It's it's a digital version of a hydra. It's the

866
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 4: Barbara streisand effect times a million.

867
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:15,280
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, because anyone can say anything, and with something

868
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 2: happening as high profile as this, with as many eyes on,

869
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 2: and the way the New York Post documentary puts it

870
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:24,320
Speaker 2: is that this thing caught fire almost immediately because of

871
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 2: those small circumstances, right, I mean that just have huge implications.

872
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 2: So everybody went, WHOA, what is going on here? I

873
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:34,240
Speaker 2: need to know more. And as soon as anything comes

874
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 2: out anywhere, especially with the way we consume the dang

875
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 2: TikTok and YouTube and Instagram videos that just have captions

876
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:45,920
Speaker 2: and no context or no citations, you're just like, oh, oh, okay,

877
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 2: that's happening, and then that'll get put into some small

878
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:52,799
Speaker 2: opinion piece that then other places report on or just

879
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:59,799
Speaker 2: copy and paste, and oh my gosh, it spreads.

880
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:06,280
Speaker 4: Okay, So here's if we can get cinematic for a second,

881
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 4: you guys, here's what we know happened. At some point,

882
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 4: people are trying to find answers. People want explanations, and

883
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 4: somewhere in the hinderlens of internet thought, a guy looked

884
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:21,320
Speaker 4: up in the darkness. A guy was trying to figure

885
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:24,240
Speaker 4: out this whole Mangione thing. He looked up in the darkness.

886
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 4: He shook his fist at the sky and he said, Pelosi,

887
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 4: Nancy Pelosi.

888
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:34,920
Speaker 2: Isn't that a weird thing? Because Nancy Pelosi went through

889
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 2: something very strange a little bit after this, right, a

890
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 2: little bit after the shooting.

891
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, the AOC Democratic kerfuffle wherein Pelosi was accused of

892
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 4: stabotaging Ocasio Cortez's attempt to help make committee in Congress

893
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:56,320
Speaker 4: based on seniority of people who were already in line.

894
00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:57,360
Speaker 3: Pelosi.

895
00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 4: Wait, but she also got hospitalized hospitalized, that's true.

896
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 2: I know that was I just remember seeing that was

897
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 2: being connected up, like, oh man, something's happening with Pelosi now,

898
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:09,399
Speaker 2: and then all of this other stuff just avalanched.

899
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:14,839
Speaker 4: Q Charlie Day, right, because also, you know, there are

900
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 4: very valid accusations and allegations regarding insider trading on Pelosi's part,

901
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 4: and to be completely fair, across all the aisles of Congress,

902
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 4: they've had a problem with insider trading and ethics for

903
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:34,920
Speaker 4: quite some time, and there is no accountability.

904
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:35,800
Speaker 3: Let's be honest.

905
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:39,359
Speaker 4: There are no consequences when those folks break the system.

906
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 3: That's all true.

907
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 4: Pelosi is a recurrent character in so many political conspiracy theories.

908
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 4: But here's the here's the juice of this one. This

909
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:52,320
Speaker 4: is the umami, this is the Charlie Day moment. Who

910
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:54,440
Speaker 4: wants to introduce it? We can always we can be

911
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:58,279
Speaker 4: safe and just freeze it in the interrogative, you know,

912
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 4: just make it questions, Okay, I can do it.

913
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 5: What if what if United Healthcare Ceobrian Thompson was preparing

914
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 5: for a testimony against Nancy Pelosi for potential insider trading.

915
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 2: What I remember I remember specifically seeing this on an

916
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:23,440
Speaker 2: Instagram reel, someone just stating it as though it was fact,

917
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 2: although they know they did it. In the what if

918
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:29,879
Speaker 2: they did it exactly like this, Yeah, and then they

919
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:32,760
Speaker 2: lay out all of this stuff about Nancy Pelosi buying

920
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:35,880
Speaker 2: shares of this one specific healthcare company and all this

921
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 2: other stuff, which may have actually been true stuff, but

922
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:41,359
Speaker 2: the way it was stated it was just so.

923
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:44,839
Speaker 3: It's it's this leady you know.

924
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 4: It is also that kind of whatevery is definitely tagging

925
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 4: base in a conversation, you know, it's it's it's up

926
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:55,960
Speaker 4: there with a move where someone says, you know what

927
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:58,279
Speaker 4: I was going to say, and then they just say

928
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:01,800
Speaker 4: the thing as the they have like little sheep's clothing

929
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:04,359
Speaker 4: over what they were what I was gonna say?

930
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:06,439
Speaker 3: Tag base? What if?

931
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:10,479
Speaker 4: I'm just asking questions? Fine, but don't weaponize it. There's

932
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 4: red string logic here. We remember the earlier cyber attack

933
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:19,279
Speaker 4: that UHC experienced in twenty twenty four, many years ago.

934
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 4: Now it seems I can't believe December felt so long.

935
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 4: December felt so beat me here at Tennessee. December felt

936
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:29,040
Speaker 4: so long? Is it because we took a break from recording?

937
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:33,080
Speaker 5: Well, you know that whole liminal space between Christmas and

938
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:36,239
Speaker 5: New Years does sort of extend into a black infinity

939
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 5: of nothingness sometimes.

940
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:40,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, I can't believe it, Like it's Friday as we're recording,

941
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 4: I didn't know what day it was until yesterday because

942
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:49,720
Speaker 4: we had to record something. Anyway, that's unrelated, very low stakes.

943
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 4: The cyber security thing is interesting because Nancy Pelusi or

944
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:59,320
Speaker 4: her financial arms invested after the cyber attack. They invested

945
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:03,840
Speaker 4: in a security firm called Palo Alto Networks, and not

946
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 4: too long after that investment, the company won a contract

947
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:14,279
Speaker 4: to investigate the cyber attack against UHC. Hmmm, I mean,

948
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:15,640
Speaker 4: is it a nothing burger?

949
00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 2: Oh? Who knows? I mean, that kind of stuff is

950
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 2: a it's that's a whole episode in itself, right, I

951
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:25,479
Speaker 2: mean you could we could drill down into that as

952
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 2: as deep as we wanted to, and there's probably some

953
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:31,920
Speaker 2: weird stuff going on there because it's money. It's so

954
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 2: much money and influence, and think about putting that on

955
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:39,880
Speaker 2: a resume like just for that company, Oh we investigated this,

956
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:43,279
Speaker 2: you know, massive attack on the largest healthcare corporation in

957
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:44,240
Speaker 2: the United States.

958
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 4: Or you know, also we would have to drill down

959
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 4: because imagine the.

960
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 3: What is the amount of investment?

961
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:53,520
Speaker 2: Right?

962
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:57,319
Speaker 4: We know Congress gets away with insider trading. That conspiracy

963
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 4: is true, it is unethical. They just have access to

964
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 4: more information than the public. But also investing a little

965
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 4: bit of money can happen very easily if you have,

966
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 4: as these books doubtlessly do. If you have a fiduciary

967
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 4: or you have your a firm that you contract out

968
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:19,440
Speaker 4: to and they invest in a bunch of stuff, you

969
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:24,319
Speaker 4: may not know right. An investment doesn't automatically put you

970
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:29,240
Speaker 4: in shark tank territory. You don't automatically own seventy percent

971
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 4: of something because you invested in it. That may be

972
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:35,840
Speaker 4: the case, we would just to your point, Matt, have

973
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:37,319
Speaker 4: to look further into it.

974
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 3: That's that's the thread.

975
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 4: And as these threads continue, each connection gets more and

976
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:48,319
Speaker 4: more tenuous. We want to talk about Maryland. Mangeoti and

977
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:54,680
Speaker 4: Pelosi are both from Maryland. H boom case solved. Well,

978
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:55,680
Speaker 4: this whole courts out.

979
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:58,359
Speaker 2: Of order makes you want to growl a little bit.

980
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:01,360
Speaker 2: What else we got, right?

981
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:01,800
Speaker 3: Okay?

982
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:06,640
Speaker 4: So Pelosi is you know, the US portrays itself or

983
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:11,480
Speaker 4: used to portray itself as meritocracy. Unfortunately, that's kind of

984
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:15,960
Speaker 4: not true. Pelosi's father and her late brother were both

985
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 4: mayors of Baltimore. Pelosi's father was a US House rep.

986
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:26,320
Speaker 4: And because the Mangione family is prominent in real estate,

987
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:32,760
Speaker 4: especially Luigi Mangioni's grandfather, folks are saying these two powerful

988
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 4: families exist in the same city.

989
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 3: They had to interact.

990
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:38,239
Speaker 2: But the family owned a golf club or something like

991
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 2: a country club, Yes, which is what we know. That's

992
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 2: where some of the stuff goes down down on the green.

993
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:47,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, but is it granted?

994
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 4: Is this not a lot like saying Deliverance was set

995
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:57,720
Speaker 4: in Georgia, so therefore everybody in Atlanta is awesome at banjo.

996
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 3: Or like a pig.

997
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:06,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, kind of, but I don't know that's so uh okay.

998
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:10,480
Speaker 2: If everyone had a banjo, yeah, like a flying car.

999
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:13,319
Speaker 2: Yeah right, If everybody in Georgia had a banjo, then

1000
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:16,320
Speaker 2: you could assume, well, maybe everybody's going a banjo because

1001
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:16,960
Speaker 2: of Deliverance.

1002
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:20,760
Speaker 3: Because of Deliverance, that's really like a Pig.

1003
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:23,239
Speaker 4: Oh my god, I've forgot about that one.

1004
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 3: That's one of those films that.

1005
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:27,360
Speaker 4: I appreciate but don't want to rewatch, you know what

1006
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:27,719
Speaker 4: I mean.

1007
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a bummer. Yeah, the book was good, but

1008
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 3: still we digress.

1009
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:37,359
Speaker 4: Maybe, right, Matt, maybe there is more sand to it,

1010
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:40,280
Speaker 4: because we know the Mangioni family and the Pelosi family

1011
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 4: did have a relationship. Powerful families do often congregate. You

1012
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:48,200
Speaker 4: want to hang with people who are similar to you.

1013
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:51,000
Speaker 2: The one weird thing that I maybe didn't understand with

1014
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:55,800
Speaker 2: this whole line of thinking was, Okay, let's imagine Brian Thompson,

1015
00:55:56,080 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 2: if let's just imagine it's real for a moment. Brian

1016
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:02,760
Speaker 2: Thompson is going to testify against Nancy Pelosi for insider trading.

1017
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:06,480
Speaker 2: So a contract killer in the form of someone known

1018
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:10,799
Speaker 2: to Nancy Pelosi is hired to kill Brian Thompson because

1019
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:15,719
Speaker 2: he's going to testify, and Nancy, somehow, because she has

1020
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:19,280
Speaker 2: some connection to them, hires this person who is fully

1021
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:21,600
Speaker 2: known to her, who would have a direct connection to her.

1022
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:25,879
Speaker 4: M Right, that's the question when we play the game

1023
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:27,920
Speaker 4: qui bono, who benefits?

1024
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:31,560
Speaker 3: Right? And why would you not? Why would you not

1025
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 3: choose a more direct method.

1026
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:39,080
Speaker 4: We have a quote from Nancy Pelosi's brother, Thomas J.

1027
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:43,800
Speaker 4: De Lessandro the third, and this is in nineteen ninety

1028
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:48,200
Speaker 4: five where he talks about his relationship with Luigi's grandfather.

1029
00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:50,560
Speaker 4: So in nineteen ninety five, Thomas J.

1030
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:55,040
Speaker 5: Alessandro the third, who is another Baltimore mayor, former Baltimore

1031
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:58,080
Speaker 5: mayor rather and brother of Pelosi, chatted about his relationship

1032
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:02,200
Speaker 5: with Luigi's grandfather at Nicholas Manzio in the Sun, which is,

1033
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 5: you know, pretty charitably can be referred to as a tabloid.

1034
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:09,360
Speaker 5: He had this to say, Nick Mangioni is foremost identified

1035
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:12,680
Speaker 5: as a family man. That's his calling card, even before

1036
00:57:12,719 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 5: he became a successful businessman. He is maybe a little

1037
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:18,520
Speaker 5: rough around the edges and maybe with an aggressive personality,

1038
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 5: but a man with a big heart. He earned his

1039
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 5: success the hard way.

1040
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:27,320
Speaker 4: Okay, so the patriarchs are friendly, but we don't know

1041
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:32,080
Speaker 4: whether Pelosi and Mangioni ever met. It's it's difficult to

1042
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:37,520
Speaker 4: draw hard evidence from this, especially if we're constructing a

1043
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:42,760
Speaker 4: mousetrap level conspiracy, not not referring to an actual mouse trap,

1044
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:46,560
Speaker 4: referring to that awesomely inconvenient game. Yeah, the board game

1045
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:47,120
Speaker 4: mouse Trap.

1046
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:48,919
Speaker 5: I don't know that I ever played a full round

1047
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 5: of that thing. I always just put it together and

1048
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 5: triggered the trap.

1049
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 4: It was so it was so fragile, and also the

1050
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 4: trap is so appealing, like why would you why would

1051
00:57:56,560 --> 00:57:57,200
Speaker 4: you play the game?

1052
00:57:57,280 --> 00:57:57,800
Speaker 3: Exactly.

1053
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:01,760
Speaker 4: Look, there's a larger context here. We'll keep it brief

1054
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:04,840
Speaker 4: because this is an ongoing case and we want to

1055
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:09,920
Speaker 4: be careful about making any unfounded statements. It is clear,

1056
00:58:10,240 --> 00:58:14,840
Speaker 4: it is a politically objectively clear. The American healthcare system

1057
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:18,200
Speaker 4: is broken, and the state of that system, the terrible

1058
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:22,600
Speaker 4: state of healthcare in this country, has been inextricably tied

1059
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:28,720
Speaker 4: to Mangioni or to the assassination of Brian Thompson. We've

1060
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:31,120
Speaker 4: got stats here that we don't have to get into,

1061
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:34,439
Speaker 4: but just for the highlights, we said it in chapter one,

1062
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 4: the US has, by all accounts, the worst performing healthcare

1063
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:42,760
Speaker 4: system among all developed or high income countries. Guys, it's

1064
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:46,240
Speaker 4: just terrible. Think about it this way. In twenty twenty one,

1065
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:50,360
Speaker 4: the US life expectancy in the five best states for

1066
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:53,320
Speaker 4: surviving as long as you can it ranged from like

1067
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:58,160
Speaker 4: seventy nine point nine years to eighty years. In comparison,

1068
00:58:58,560 --> 00:59:03,160
Speaker 4: the shortest life expectancy among all the other high income

1069
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:09,160
Speaker 4: nations is eighty point four, meaning the best states for

1070
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:13,240
Speaker 4: healthcare in the United States are still worse than the

1071
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:18,680
Speaker 4: worst other developed countries. That sikes, Yeah, that's sobery. That

1072
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:21,640
Speaker 4: is a national defense gap. I would argue.

1073
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:25,880
Speaker 2: Absolutely, So eighty point four shortest life expectancy in the

1074
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:30,400
Speaker 2: UK and then eighty or less than eighty in the

1075
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:32,400
Speaker 2: best states, got it? Okay? Oh wow?

1076
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, So maybe when you get in your sixties, time

1077
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:36,360
Speaker 4: to consider moving, you.

1078
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:38,880
Speaker 2: Know, shoot, when you get to the point where you

1079
00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:41,120
Speaker 2: might need to, I don't know, have parts of your

1080
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:43,440
Speaker 2: body exammed that you've never had examined before because you're

1081
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 2: getting older. They can prostate other you know, things like that. Yeah,

1082
00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:50,560
Speaker 2: maybe that's when you leave a little scappy. Yeah me.

1083
00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:50,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1084
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:53,320
Speaker 5: Some friends of mine who live in Berlin actually I

1085
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:56,560
Speaker 5: guess immigrated there from the United Kingdom.

1086
00:59:56,720 --> 00:59:58,640
Speaker 3: I guess it was before Brexit so it was easier

1087
00:59:58,680 --> 00:59:58,880
Speaker 3: to do.

1088
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 5: But talking to them about healthcare, you know, they just

1089
01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:05,120
Speaker 5: the concept of having to worry about your elderly parents

1090
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:08,200
Speaker 5: and dealing with their care and making sure they live

1091
01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:11,080
Speaker 5: a humane life. You know in their in their twilight

1092
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:15,120
Speaker 5: years is just alien to them. It's just they don't

1093
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:17,680
Speaker 5: worry about it. It's all taken care of by the state.

1094
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:22,280
Speaker 2: Well, and that's one of the things that Maggioni's grandfather,

1095
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:26,520
Speaker 2: Nicholas Maggioni started. He started like a country club and

1096
01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:30,840
Speaker 2: then a series of elder care facilities, and that's like,

1097
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:32,040
Speaker 2: that's his business.

1098
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:35,920
Speaker 4: That's a durge business to be it. Well, but if

1099
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:38,440
Speaker 4: you're not too fettered by ethics.

1100
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:42,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I wonder how the healthcare, like the healthcare

1101
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:45,280
Speaker 2: connection is furthered there, because it does feel like, at

1102
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:48,600
Speaker 2: least in this country, Medicare would often be the program

1103
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:52,400
Speaker 2: that folks are using more often than not when they're

1104
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:52,720
Speaker 2: in there.

1105
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:56,480
Speaker 4: Sure, yeah, because you'll run out of your personal savings

1106
01:00:56,600 --> 01:00:57,200
Speaker 4: very quickly.

1107
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:00,240
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, unfortunately. Yeah, it's true.

1108
01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:05,120
Speaker 4: In the US, everyone massively overpays for healthcare and all forms,

1109
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:09,560
Speaker 4: including dental vision, and despite paid so much more the

1110
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:11,840
Speaker 4: care they receive by any metric.

1111
01:01:13,080 --> 01:01:18,080
Speaker 2: Well, it sucksah, because it's not about anything besides generating

1112
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:22,520
Speaker 2: profit for shareholders. Right, It's all about windfall for shareholders,

1113
01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:26,840
Speaker 2: especially when you have corporations that large. It's not about

1114
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:29,120
Speaker 2: helping people. It's about saving money.

1115
01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:33,200
Speaker 4: Yes, exactly. And this is this is in the front

1116
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:35,760
Speaker 4: of mind of every American who is thinking about the

1117
01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:41,640
Speaker 4: mangionic case. Everybody knows, regardless you're demographic. Everybody knows the

1118
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:45,080
Speaker 4: problems with healthcare that we have just mentioned. And that's

1119
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:47,480
Speaker 4: why so many people are saying, Look, I'm not going

1120
01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:51,520
Speaker 4: to condone murder, but not condoning murder means I both

1121
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:56,960
Speaker 4: refuse to champion the homicide Brian Thompson, and I also

1122
01:01:57,080 --> 01:02:01,600
Speaker 4: refuse to condone the fatal decisions of private healthcare companies

1123
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:06,280
Speaker 4: because their business model depends on making money year over year,

1124
01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:09,240
Speaker 4: and they make more money when they deny claims.

1125
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:15,040
Speaker 2: Dude, I've got an idea. Yeah, from now in perpetuity,

1126
01:02:15,520 --> 01:02:19,640
Speaker 2: we do this as a collective group of Americans. The

1127
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:21,720
Speaker 2: I don't know if you've seen some of the lottery

1128
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:25,480
Speaker 2: numbers for like these huge you know, the crazy lotteries

1129
01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:29,000
Speaker 2: where it isn't one but for once in every three

1130
01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:31,520
Speaker 2: months or something four months, like somebody will win the

1131
01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:33,800
Speaker 2: crazy lottery where it's like a billion dollars or five

1132
01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:37,680
Speaker 2: hundred million dollars. Everybody who wins the lottery from now

1133
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:41,600
Speaker 2: on takes one hundred million as their winnings for their lottery.

1134
01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:43,640
Speaker 2: Then the rest of it gets put into a fund,

1135
01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:47,560
Speaker 2: and once that thing hits like five billion, we use

1136
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:51,320
Speaker 2: that fund to pay for everybody's medical costs and everybody

1137
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:54,560
Speaker 2: gets rid of healthcare, and then we just we just

1138
01:02:54,600 --> 01:02:55,680
Speaker 2: fund it with the lottery.

1139
01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:59,680
Speaker 4: Every time a collective walkout, Yes, but it's also that's

1140
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:06,000
Speaker 4: I love it. We're in the brainstorming phase. There are

1141
01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:09,840
Speaker 4: no wrong answers. It reminds me of the just the

1142
01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:14,480
Speaker 4: quick math on the billionaire class. Right, you could give

1143
01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:18,440
Speaker 4: one hundred million to every person in the United States,

1144
01:03:18,840 --> 01:03:22,280
Speaker 4: and several of those people who did that, you could

1145
01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:24,640
Speaker 4: give ten million at least, and several people who did

1146
01:03:24,640 --> 01:03:28,200
Speaker 4: that would still be billionaires several times over. Like this

1147
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:33,200
Speaker 4: is just ludicrous. This is not uh normal, and that's

1148
01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:33,480
Speaker 4: what we.

1149
01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:34,160
Speaker 3: Have to remember.

1150
01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:36,880
Speaker 2: Well, then we freak out when we say, wow, it's

1151
01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:40,160
Speaker 2: insane that everybody identifies with the guy who killed this

1152
01:03:40,520 --> 01:03:42,400
Speaker 2: healthcare CEO. That's crazy.

1153
01:03:43,040 --> 01:03:43,160
Speaker 1: Mm.

1154
01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:46,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, and I think none of the three of

1155
01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:51,160
Speaker 5: us are certainly advocating for an armed uprising necessarily or

1156
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:54,400
Speaker 5: for like you know, killing people of power like that.

1157
01:03:54,480 --> 01:03:57,160
Speaker 5: But it just the sentiment is not that hard to

1158
01:03:57,160 --> 01:03:58,040
Speaker 5: wrap your head around.

1159
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:02,000
Speaker 4: That's all one hundred percent, yeah, especially when we're considering

1160
01:04:02,040 --> 01:04:05,720
Speaker 4: the perspectives and the very real experiences of other people.

1161
01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:11,240
Speaker 4: We know public officials are intensely concerned with the possibility

1162
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:17,120
Speaker 4: of mangio and becoming a clarion call right, inspiring copycat action,

1163
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:22,360
Speaker 4: inspiring you know, to the point armed revolutions or armed

1164
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:25,280
Speaker 4: uprising similar to the Arab Spring, which is a whole

1165
01:04:25,280 --> 01:04:27,640
Speaker 4: other episode, and that's a rabbit hole too.

1166
01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:28,040
Speaker 1: Well.

1167
01:04:28,080 --> 01:04:29,760
Speaker 5: I was just going to ask you guys too, like,

1168
01:04:30,120 --> 01:04:33,960
Speaker 5: what is the next step of this conversation becoming so

1169
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:36,479
Speaker 5: front and center, Like, I mean, how do you fight

1170
01:04:36,560 --> 01:04:39,080
Speaker 5: back against quote unquote just like the way it is,

1171
01:04:39,160 --> 01:04:41,840
Speaker 5: that's just the way our economics in this country work,

1172
01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:46,080
Speaker 5: Like short of burning everything down and starting some sort

1173
01:04:46,080 --> 01:04:49,640
Speaker 5: of armed uprising, like, is really no mechanism for changing STU.

1174
01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:52,120
Speaker 5: I mean certain people would argue that, oh right, your congressmen,

1175
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:53,280
Speaker 5: you know, vote, et cetera.

1176
01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:54,480
Speaker 3: But I just don't see it.

1177
01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:58,040
Speaker 2: We start a fund with the lottery winnings.

1178
01:04:59,000 --> 01:04:59,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, but they okay.

1179
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:04,040
Speaker 4: But to Devil's Advocate again, which is a great film,

1180
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:05,760
Speaker 4: please watch it.

1181
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:08,040
Speaker 3: To do the Devil's advocate thing there.

1182
01:05:09,240 --> 01:05:12,400
Speaker 4: One of the billionaire responses or one of the Kissinger

1183
01:05:12,520 --> 01:05:16,440
Speaker 4: level responses would immediately be simple, We'll just break the

1184
01:05:16,480 --> 01:05:21,040
Speaker 4: lottery so a guy wins, dang it, dang it, So

1185
01:05:21,080 --> 01:05:24,360
Speaker 4: we need we need to start our own lottery, Okay,

1186
01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:28,360
Speaker 4: run by the people for the people, and you can't

1187
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:30,160
Speaker 4: participate if you make too much money.

1188
01:05:30,240 --> 01:05:31,880
Speaker 3: I mean, it's very intriguing, no question.

1189
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:33,600
Speaker 5: But it's also like, you know, we've got this new

1190
01:05:33,600 --> 01:05:36,600
Speaker 5: administration coming in that is all hot to like change

1191
01:05:36,600 --> 01:05:39,000
Speaker 5: the status quo and all of that good stuff.

1192
01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:42,000
Speaker 3: But they're certainly not talking about these issues.

1193
01:05:42,160 --> 01:05:46,680
Speaker 5: Because it's not a popular issue for the millionaire billionaire

1194
01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:49,480
Speaker 5: business class, who they seem to be the most beholden to.

1195
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:52,720
Speaker 4: One would argue, yeah, we also know the US is

1196
01:05:52,880 --> 01:05:57,560
Speaker 4: most likely entering a new era of privatization, so things

1197
01:05:57,560 --> 01:06:02,280
Speaker 4: that were formerly considered public and part of the you know,

1198
01:06:02,360 --> 01:06:06,640
Speaker 4: the quote unquote common good may may be commodified. We're

1199
01:06:06,680 --> 01:06:09,960
Speaker 4: not making a judgment call on that yet because it

1200
01:06:10,040 --> 01:06:13,400
Speaker 4: hasn't occurred yet, but the trend is there, there's something

1201
01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:16,600
Speaker 4: in the wind. Maybe we end on this. I love

1202
01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:18,480
Speaker 4: the questions you brought up here at the end. Noal,

1203
01:06:19,280 --> 01:06:22,000
Speaker 4: we like the rest of this country, have to wonder

1204
01:06:22,280 --> 01:06:26,000
Speaker 4: at this deep and accelerating divide, not just in the

1205
01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:31,960
Speaker 4: narrative of one case, one murder, but in the larger context,

1206
01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:34,920
Speaker 4: and we have to ask ourselves what comes next? Is

1207
01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:38,160
Speaker 4: there something they don't want us to know? And if so,

1208
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:41,120
Speaker 4: what is it? We love your help answering this question.

1209
01:06:41,600 --> 01:06:43,320
Speaker 4: We are going to call it a day. We're off

1210
01:06:43,360 --> 01:06:46,280
Speaker 4: on the broad horizon of twenty twenty five and we

1211
01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:48,960
Speaker 4: want to hear from you. Thanks so much for joining us.

1212
01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:53,520
Speaker 4: Please contact us via email, telephonic device, or on the

1213
01:06:53,600 --> 01:06:56,800
Speaker 4: social media platforms we just dunked on hard for like

1214
01:06:56,840 --> 01:06:57,200
Speaker 4: an hour.

1215
01:06:57,440 --> 01:06:59,640
Speaker 5: That's right. You can find our show at the handle

1216
01:06:59,760 --> 01:07:02,520
Speaker 5: space heirac Stuff, where we exist on Facebook with our

1217
01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:06,200
Speaker 5: Facebook group Here's where it gets Crazy, on x FKA, Twitter,

1218
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:09,560
Speaker 5: and on YouTube, on Instagram and TikTok. However, we are

1219
01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:13,200
Speaker 5: Conspiracy Stuff show. You can also find us as individual

1220
01:07:13,280 --> 01:07:16,480
Speaker 5: human people. I'm how now Noel Brown on Instagram.

1221
01:07:16,520 --> 01:07:18,919
Speaker 3: In a burst of unprecedented creativity.

1222
01:07:19,200 --> 01:07:22,720
Speaker 4: You can find an account associated with me as at

1223
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:26,840
Speaker 4: ben Bullen on Instagram at ben bullan hsw on x.

1224
01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:31,800
Speaker 4: You can also visit the website Benbollin dot com. Again

1225
01:07:31,920 --> 01:07:36,360
Speaker 4: super creative with the names here, Matt. There's an excellent

1226
01:07:36,400 --> 01:07:39,680
Speaker 4: trailer on your social media that I saw recently. Where

1227
01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:40,600
Speaker 4: could people find you?

1228
01:07:41,080 --> 01:07:44,000
Speaker 2: Ah, that's easy. Just head over to Instagram and look

1229
01:07:44,080 --> 01:07:48,040
Speaker 2: up Unlikely Gems. That's me. You'll see fun videos of

1230
01:07:48,040 --> 01:07:53,000
Speaker 2: me and a hat standing around with a microphone. It's awesome. No,

1231
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:56,120
Speaker 2: I have one. And there's a trailer for Monster BTK

1232
01:07:56,360 --> 01:07:58,800
Speaker 2: which you can check out right now. The official trailer

1233
01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:01,840
Speaker 2: is out. But what you handle, buddy, I don't have

1234
01:08:01,880 --> 01:08:04,520
Speaker 2: one Unlikely Gems?

1235
01:08:05,040 --> 01:08:06,840
Speaker 3: Is that true? Are you being funny? I don't understand

1236
01:08:06,880 --> 01:08:08,840
Speaker 3: you do how you see it's being funny? It is

1237
01:08:08,880 --> 01:08:09,320
Speaker 3: not true.

1238
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:11,440
Speaker 2: Okay, it's just my favorite Instagram.

1239
01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:12,680
Speaker 3: They're great.

1240
01:08:12,800 --> 01:08:16,799
Speaker 4: Also, shout out wizards with guns. Hey there we those guys.

1241
01:08:17,280 --> 01:08:21,640
Speaker 4: So there's another way to contact us, not just as individuals,

1242
01:08:21,880 --> 01:08:22,800
Speaker 4: but as a show.

1243
01:08:22,840 --> 01:08:23,880
Speaker 3: There are a couple of ways.

1244
01:08:24,280 --> 01:08:28,559
Speaker 4: What happens, Matt if someone's holding a telephonic device in

1245
01:08:28,600 --> 01:08:30,240
Speaker 4: there in their hot little hands right.

1246
01:08:30,120 --> 01:08:34,600
Speaker 2: Now, Well, first, put that phone down, you go outside,

1247
01:08:35,160 --> 01:08:37,280
Speaker 2: look at the trees for a while. Do that for

1248
01:08:37,400 --> 01:08:39,000
Speaker 2: long enough. Then you come back in, pick up the

1249
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:42,800
Speaker 2: phone and call one eight to three three std WYTK.

1250
01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:45,400
Speaker 2: That is our voicemail system. When you call in, give

1251
01:08:45,439 --> 01:08:47,640
Speaker 2: yourself a cool nickname and let us know in the

1252
01:08:47,640 --> 01:08:49,880
Speaker 2: message if we can use your message and your voice

1253
01:08:50,040 --> 01:08:51,720
Speaker 2: on the air. If you've got more to say then

1254
01:08:51,760 --> 01:08:53,799
Speaker 2: could fit in a three minute voicemail. Why not instead

1255
01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:55,479
Speaker 2: send us a good old fashioned email.

1256
01:08:55,600 --> 01:08:59,040
Speaker 4: We are the entities that read every piece of correspondence

1257
01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:03,360
Speaker 4: we receive, aware yet unafraid. Sometimes the void writes back.

1258
01:09:03,520 --> 01:09:05,799
Speaker 4: Would like to give a special shout out to fellow

1259
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:10,479
Speaker 4: conspiracy realist Darcy, who wrote an epic series a saga

1260
01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:15,479
Speaker 4: of limericks quite enjoyed. Expect us, Darcy, But we'll be

1261
01:09:15,520 --> 01:09:17,240
Speaker 4: out the way soon. If you want to be part

1262
01:09:17,400 --> 01:09:22,400
Speaker 4: of this strange, strange adventure, this continuing mission, join us

1263
01:09:22,439 --> 01:09:42,480
Speaker 4: out here in the dark conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1264
01:09:42,640 --> 01:09:44,679
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production

1265
01:09:44,800 --> 01:09:49,360
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1266
01:09:49,439 --> 01:09:52,520
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.