Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound On podcast. Catch us
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Speaker 2: The Democratic Leader in the House calls on the new
Speaker 2: speaker to take shutdown off the table, and Israel conducts
Speaker 2: raids in Gaza to prepare for the next phase. Welcome
Speaker 2: to the fastest show in politics with twin leads this
Speaker 2: day in Washington. After the new Speaker was installed and
Speaker 2: Hamas now claims Israeli raids have killed almost fifty hostages.
Speaker 2: We'll talk about the next steps in Israel and the
Speaker 2: threat posed by Iran. Coming up with retired Army General
Speaker 2: Wesley Clark, a former Supreme Allied Commander for Europe, with
Speaker 2: analysis today from our signature panel. They're both back with us.
Speaker 2: Bloomberg Politics contributors Rick Davis and Gdi Shanzano will be
Speaker 2: with us for the hour to distill a lot of
Speaker 2: information from the past twenty five four hours here in Washington.
Speaker 2: A bit later this hour, a special conversation with the
Speaker 2: Secretary of the Treasury Jennet Yellen, is with us today
Speaker 2: in our offices at Bloomberg in Washington. Our bureau chief
Speaker 2: Peggy Collins will be conducting an interview across the platforms here,
Speaker 2: the radio, the satellite, and YouTube coming up in just
Speaker 2: about a half hour's time. So you want to stay
Speaker 2: with us for an important conversation ahead as we begin
Speaker 2: on Capitol Hill now, and welcome General Wesley Clark to
Speaker 2: the conversation. It's good to see you, General, I know
Speaker 2: you're on Capitol Hill as you join us today from
Speaker 2: the Russell Rotunda to talk with Senators about threats posed
Speaker 2: by Iran and our policy towards Iran. I'd like to
Speaker 2: start by asking you though about the urgency around a
Speaker 2: supplemental budget request that now there is a new speaker,
Speaker 2: there's going to be some action on this. In your
Speaker 2: thoughts on how quickly and what is needed for Israel now.
Speaker 3: Well, we need the full request that the administration's made,
Speaker 3: We need it passed as rapperly as possible. And let's
Speaker 3: not forget it's not just Israel, it's also Ukraine.
Speaker 4: The two are linked.
Speaker 3: Russia and Iran are strategic partners, and you can be
Speaker 3: sure that Vladimir Putin is really happy to see what's
Speaker 3: going on in Israel. How much he had to do
Speaker 3: with it, Maybe we won't know for a while, but
Speaker 3: we know Iran had a lot to do with it.
Speaker 3: We have to understand that this Both actions are threats
Speaker 3: to democracy, it's the international order, the rule of law
Speaker 3: in the world today, and of course obviously to our
Speaker 3: business community internationally. So we have to keep both in
Speaker 3: mind when need to get that those appropriations passed immediately.
Speaker 2: Well, there does seem to be an appetite for supporting
Speaker 2: Israel in this case general. But there is an argument
Speaker 2: overfunding for Ukraine, and I know that the Republican Conference
Speaker 2: in the House is looking to bring an Israel only
Speaker 2: bill to the floor. What do you make of this argument?
Speaker 2: Sixty billion dollars for Ukraine with some members saying not
Speaker 2: another dollar. But the president, as you just put it,
Speaker 2: is trying to link the two together as a matter
Speaker 2: of national security. You see continuity between these two requests.
Speaker 4: They are linked together.
Speaker 3: Vladimir Putin is working with Iran, Iran's working with Putin. Yes,
Speaker 3: they're linked, but also understand this, that's sixty billion dollars
Speaker 3: for Ukraine. Most of that money doesn't go to Ukraine.
Speaker 3: That money goes to the United States. That's keeping and
Speaker 3: building up our industrial base to face the challenges of
Speaker 3: the Middle East, to face future challenges in NATO, and
Speaker 3: of course to face the challenge of China. We've let
Speaker 3: our industrial base, our military industrial base, deteriorate over the
Speaker 3: last thirty years since.
Speaker 4: The end of the Cold War.
Speaker 3: We allowed a wholesale consolidation of defense industries. We reduced
Speaker 3: the rates of supply that we need of everything. Is
Speaker 3: this sort of half step, We've got to put that
Speaker 3: money into our own base. The appropriations we've already given
Speaker 3: to Ukraine. That money went to American firms. We just
Speaker 3: gave them a bunch of old equipment, old ammunition. We
Speaker 3: need to keep that system alive and strengthen it for
Speaker 3: the challenges ahead. That's why putting Ukraine in that appropriations
Speaker 3: bill is so important.
Speaker 2: Well, there's so much to talk about here general. We
Speaker 2: talk about the DIB here on the program, the defense
Speaker 2: industrial base that you're referring to. This goes for Israel
Speaker 2: as well, And I think that's your point, right. If
Speaker 2: we're going to be making missiles to replenish the Iron Dome,
Speaker 2: for instance, we do not have a manufacturing chain, according
Speaker 2: to companies like Raytheon to make them fast enough. How
Speaker 2: do we accelerate that process? Does this supplemental request?
Speaker 3: Do it supply and demand put the money into it.
Speaker 3: The companies will respond, but without that funding, No, if
Speaker 3: they can't hire the people, invest in the capital goods
Speaker 3: that are necessary create the supply chaange. No, they have
Speaker 3: to have contracts, and these are multi year contracts procurement
Speaker 3: contracts by the Defense Department, and that requires a funding.
Speaker 3: So it's very simple, and it's if you don't do
Speaker 3: it now, who knows what's going to happen in twenty four,
Speaker 3: twenty five, twenty twenty six, twenty seven with Taiwan. So
Speaker 3: all of this is linked. You can't artificially separate it.
Speaker 2: Well, are you hearing that message received on Capitol Hill today?
Speaker 2: I trust you're talking with members of both parties. I
Speaker 2: know you're briefing senators today on our Iran policy. What
Speaker 2: do they say to you about this matter, the supplemental
Speaker 2: request and the need for a more streamlined and enhanced
Speaker 2: manufacturing chain.
Speaker 3: Well, I think they're all generally in support of this.
Speaker 3: In the United States Senate, the question is the House,
Speaker 3: and there's a lot of let's say, misunderstanding in the
Speaker 3: House about what the funding for Ukraine actually does and
Speaker 3: why it's needed. And hopefully this can become something that
Speaker 3: can be corrected by information and not just sort of
Speaker 3: a partisan tagline. But the big thing up here today
Speaker 3: is Iran and what we're going to do about Iran.
Speaker 3: You know, we've tried for forty years to work with
Speaker 3: this government in Iran. We've pulled on it, pushed on it,
Speaker 3: we've appeased it, we've patted it on the back, we've
Speaker 3: sanctioned it, we've threatened it. Nothing changes the direction of
Speaker 3: this Iranian government. They use terror and murder at home
Speaker 3: and abroad. They want regional dominance. They've destroyed the state
Speaker 3: of Lebanon. They've built a huge military complex and they've
Speaker 3: forward positioned it through his Bilah ready to attack Israel. Look,
Speaker 3: this crisis in Hamas brings this to a head. Can't
Speaker 3: appease this government in Iran. It's time to let the
Speaker 3: Iranian people have a government that represents them.
Speaker 4: And that means we, the United States, stage and.
Speaker 3: Our allies need to delegitimize the Iyatolas, get rid of
Speaker 3: them in international organizations, cut off their access to funding,
Speaker 3: sanction individually, get after their families, stop this government from
Speaker 3: having control over its people. Doesn't take a war, don't
Speaker 3: want an invasion.
Speaker 4: But if we keep.
Speaker 3: Going the way we're going, Iran is going to provoke
Speaker 3: a war in the region.
Speaker 4: And that's the day.
Speaker 2: Well, I'd like to ask you more about that. Let
Speaker 2: me first ask you about the Biden administration's repeated message
Speaker 2: that there is no actual evidence that Iran was directly
Speaker 2: involved in or helped plan or fund the Hamas terror attack.
Speaker 2: Do you need to see that evidence or is that
Speaker 2: kind of missing the point in this conversation. You're pointing
Speaker 2: to a long history that the administration is also acknowledged,
Speaker 2: but without that evidence to put the two together, the
Speaker 2: presidents seems to be a bit tied up on this.
Speaker 3: Do you think, well, I think it's I think it's
Speaker 3: what the administration's appetite is for acting in many different
Speaker 3: directions at once, and what the capacity is Washington typically
Speaker 3: is a one crisis at a time town. And you know,
Speaker 3: we've got a crisis right now. We're worried about what
Speaker 3: Israel will do in Gaza, will they have the support
Speaker 3: they need? What about his law and what I'm suggesting
Speaker 3: is you've got to go to the source, and the
Speaker 3: source is Iran. Now is it the immediate source? Did
Speaker 3: the Iranians tell the Hamas people on this specific day,
Speaker 3: I want you to go out this specific gate, come
Speaker 3: in with these paragliders, kill these people. No, probably not,
Speaker 3: But we do know have evidence that they trained a
Speaker 3: bunch of Palestinian fighters as late as September. We know
Speaker 3: there are meetings that have been held. Do we know
Speaker 3: what's said in those meetings? Well, not at the unclassified level,
Speaker 3: and maybe we don't even know at.
Speaker 4: The most secret level.
Speaker 3: It's a question of how the administration sees its way
Speaker 3: through the crisis. And what I'm suggesting is that you
Speaker 3: have to be able to do more than one thing
Speaker 3: at a time. You've got Ukraine, that's a critical at
Speaker 3: a critical state right now. They need sustainment and they're
Speaker 3: facing a really tough Russian attack. In the northeast, You've
Speaker 3: got Israel and Gaza, and then you've got the region,
Speaker 3: and so in the region you have to understand the
Speaker 3: source of these tensions.
Speaker 4: It is Iran.
Speaker 3: And there's nothing like a crisis to bring on a
Speaker 3: path to a resolution. And in this case the resolution
Speaker 3: is to delegitimate that government in Tehran.
Speaker 2: There's talk about a second or third front opening. I
Speaker 2: know that's a great fear of the administration and the
Speaker 2: Pentagon general, But when you look around, we've already seen
Speaker 2: incursions repeatedly to the north. We've seen attacks against US
Speaker 2: military installations in Iraq and Syria. We've seen an American
Speaker 2: warship intercept cruise missiles from Yemen. Are the second and
Speaker 2: third fronts already hot? Is this already happening?
Speaker 4: Well, let's put it this way. They're warming it up.
Speaker 3: But I don't think the decision has been made by
Speaker 3: the Ayatolas to really open up the northern front yet.
Speaker 3: It's it's nuisances right now. Yeah, they're killing people, they're firing,
Speaker 3: but they haven't really committed. They want to wait and
Speaker 3: see what Israel is able to do in Gaza, whether
Speaker 3: it's so deeply enmeasure in Gaza that it can't defend itself.
Speaker 4: From the north, whether the whole world.
Speaker 3: Turns against it because of the need to bring heavy
Speaker 3: firepower in an urban area to dislodge Hamas, if they
Speaker 3: can bring world opinion totally against it, isolate the United
Speaker 3: States and Israel. If they think the Israelis can't protect
Speaker 3: themselves from all three directions at once, then maybe they
Speaker 3: will unleash his blow.
Speaker 4: And they haven't.
Speaker 3: Made that decision yet, as we can tell publicly.
Speaker 2: General, while you're with us, I want to ask you
Speaker 2: about the matter of military readiness in the blockade on
Speaker 2: military promotions in the Senate. You might have even spoken
Speaker 2: with Tommy Tubberville today, but there's a new effort that
Speaker 2: Democrats are making to send a resolution to the Rules
Speaker 2: Committee that would allow three hundred plus promotions that have
Speaker 2: been held up to all go to the floor at
Speaker 2: one time. Would you support that movement? Is it set
Speaker 2: a bad precedent?
Speaker 3: Oh? I think it's essential at this point. Look, Senator
Speaker 3: TULLVERRLL has made his point. Everybody understands where he stands,
Speaker 3: what he stands for, that he's a man who's willing
Speaker 3: to fight for what he believes in.
Speaker 4: Okay, enough is enough.
Speaker 3: Let's get on with getting these military leaders and their
Speaker 3: families and their right positions and preparing for the challenges
Speaker 3: that are on our doorstep right now.
Speaker 4: There's no time to waste on this.
Speaker 2: Is it impacting our readiness?
Speaker 4: There's no doubt about it.
Speaker 2: Have you talked to Tommy Tubberville to let him know
Speaker 2: your thoughts.
Speaker 3: Well, I haven't talked to him on this. No, I'm
Speaker 3: one of many in the retired general officer ranks who's
Speaker 3: watching this very anxiously. I'd be delighted if he would
Speaker 3: call me and ask me for some his assistance or
Speaker 3: advice on it. He's got to back his way out,
Speaker 3: and he hasn't been willing to do that. But you know,
Speaker 3: he's a senator. He's do his respect, and he has
Speaker 3: the right to put a hold on nominations. But enough's enough.
Speaker 4: Let's get on with the business of the United States government.
Speaker 2: You've been generous with your time today. General. I wonder lastly,
Speaker 2: as you're speaking with senators, are you also talking to
Speaker 2: the administration about policy toward Iran, next step, sanctions, whatever
Speaker 2: you think the next step should be.
Speaker 3: Well, I talk to anybody who will listen on this.
Speaker 3: This is a looming crisis that we've seen coming for
Speaker 3: some time. And you know, there's an odd thing about Iran.
Speaker 3: When things are quiet and they're not attacking our troops
Speaker 3: and there's diplomacy going on, people say, well, don't worry,
Speaker 3: so much about it. Us don't shake the tree, and
Speaker 3: then when there's a crisis, people say, oh, this is
Speaker 3: a crisis. This is no time to reach in to
Speaker 3: change the policy.
Speaker 4: And so.
Speaker 3: We never seem to want to move past what's been
Speaker 3: forty years of fruitless efforts one way or another to
Speaker 3: engage with this Iranian regime.
Speaker 4: It is time to.
Speaker 3: Recognize that this is an illegitimate regime and get it
Speaker 3: out of international legitimacy.
Speaker 2: General Wesley Clark, we appreciate the time and the insights
Speaker 2: today on Bloomberg. Thank you for joining us. This is
Speaker 2: Bloomberg Sound On. I'm Joe, Matthew and Washington. As we
Speaker 2: assemble our panel here the day after we got a speaker.
Speaker 2: Rick Davis and Genie Shanzino are with us now, Bloomberg
Speaker 2: Politics Contributor's great to have you both here. Genie, what's
Speaker 2: your thought about what we just heard? Because the General
Speaker 2: sounded a lot like Rick Davis, to be honest with
Speaker 2: regard to Iran. This is, of course a man who
Speaker 2: ran for president as a Democrat. Is there a daylight
Speaker 2: between what he's saying and what we're hearing from Joe Biden?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it's a fascinating conversation because I do
Speaker 5: think there is a divide in the Democratic Party on this,
Speaker 5: and there has been for some time. You know, we
Speaker 5: can go back to Barack Obama's approach to Iran, but
Speaker 5: you can go back even further, and I think he
Speaker 5: is echoing what is a sort of in the momentum
Speaker 5: continuing to gain hold, which is that efforts to what
Speaker 5: some people describe as a peace or some people describe
Speaker 5: as contain I mean, there's a lot of different adjectives
Speaker 5: you can use. Iran simply have not worked, and what
Speaker 5: has happened since October seventh, but even earlier is proved
Speaker 5: positive of that. But the problem is there is very
Speaker 5: little agreement on where to go forward and how to
Speaker 5: go forward. I mean, shared Brown's view on what the
Speaker 5: Banking Committee alone should do on Iran is fascinating and
Speaker 5: shows this divide. So there's a necessary conversation, and you
Speaker 5: were just having a really key part of it with
Speaker 5: somebody with very strong views on this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what do you think, Rick, what should the next
Speaker 2: move be for the Biden administration? The generals on Capitol
Speaker 2: Hill to sound the alarm today? Do they need to
Speaker 2: move past the idea of finding evidence that links Iran.
Speaker 2: I mean, the general's talking about shutting this down, even
Speaker 2: going after their families.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think it's parsing that's actually just going to
Speaker 6: make them look weak in the eyes of the American public.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 6: Look, I mean, Ran has been a horrible influence in
Speaker 6: the region around the world for as long as the
Speaker 6: Iatola has been running it, and we've allowed that to
Speaker 6: sustain itself. We're afraid of the development of their nuclear weapons.
Speaker 6: We don't want to get in a scrape with them
Speaker 6: in the Middle East, and yet they dictate all the
Speaker 6: terms that occur there. I mean, the reason that this
Speaker 6: is all happening is because through US efforts to normalize
Speaker 6: relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel, they put a kebash
Speaker 6: to it, and and so like, who's not surprised by
Speaker 6: all this? And and this naivete within the Biden administration
Speaker 6: that they can somehow do business with Iran but let
Speaker 6: them be a pure and interest in the region is
Speaker 6: absolutely insane. They've got to rationalize this to us in
Speaker 6: their relationship with Iran in a way that is absolutely
Speaker 6: clear to the American public, which is Iran's the enemy.
Speaker 6: They've always been the enemy. They're always going.
Speaker 2: To be the enemy.
Speaker 6: They don't have the same views around the world, values
Speaker 6: that we all hold dear on human life. And just
Speaker 6: look at what they've been able to accomplish in the region,
Speaker 6: you know, supporting Hamas, supporting Husbala, supporting Syrian.
Speaker 7: Islamis.
Speaker 6: I mean, it's it's there's nothing positive about their conduct whatsoever.
Speaker 6: So let's quit saying, oh, well, there's no direct evidence
Speaker 6: that they pulled the triggers. It's a little bit late
Speaker 6: for that.
Speaker 2: We'll have a lot more with our panel, Rick Davis
Speaker 2: and Genie Shanzano. We haven't even gotten to the matter
Speaker 2: of the speaker race. The new Speaker of the House,
Speaker 2: Mike Johnson making waves already today in Washington and meeting
Speaker 2: with Biden administration officials about avoiding a shutdown. We're going
Speaker 2: to get to that next with Rick and Jeannie on
Speaker 2: the Fastest Show in Politics. I'm Joe, Matthew and Washington.
Speaker 2: Thanks for being with us on the radio, on the satellite,
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Speaker 2: This is Bloomberg.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch the
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Speaker 2: Live from Washington with breaking news on the new Speaker
Speaker 2: of the House. It's the first full day on the
Speaker 2: job for Speaker Johnson. Meeting with Biden administration's administration officials.
Speaker 2: Easy for me to say on the big funding request
Speaker 2: we were just talking about with the general here, bipartisan
Speaker 2: briefing with congressional leadership. This is the first time the
Speaker 2: Speaker is interfacing with the Biden administration as the man
Speaker 2: who holds the gavel. And it's coming less than twenty
Speaker 2: four hours after the big celebration on the steps of
Speaker 2: the House after he made the grade. He was joined
Speaker 2: by all the members of the Republican Conference and it
Speaker 2: was a LoveFest.
Speaker 8: We're going to act consistently. We're going to exhibit two
Speaker 8: things here, trust and teamwork, and this group will deliver
Speaker 8: for the American people. I said it in the Chamber
Speaker 8: and I will say it here. We're going to govern well.
Speaker 2: We're going to govern well endorsed by everyone else who
Speaker 2: wanted to get the job, including Steve Scalise.
Speaker 9: You know, if you think about what's happened these last
Speaker 9: three weeks, while a lot of people outside of Washington
Speaker 9: and talk about dysfunction, this great group of men and
Speaker 9: women behind me have been talking about how to fix
Speaker 9: what's broken in Washington.
Speaker 2: And so this was really good for everybody. Ask Tom Emmer,
Speaker 2: this is like the best time he ever had. I
Speaker 2: guess remember you had the nomination for I think four hours.
Speaker 3: From an outside point of view, these last few weeks
Speaker 3: probably looked like total.
Speaker 4: Chaos, confusion.
Speaker 2: Oh, I don't no end in sight.
Speaker 8: But from my perspective, this is one of the greatest
Speaker 8: experiences in recent history, in the recent history of our republic.
Speaker 2: We couldn't have planned it better. Let's reassemble the panel.
Speaker 2: Rick Davis and Genie Shanzey no Bloomberg Politics contributors. Haven't
Speaker 2: heard from either of you yet. Can't wait, Rick, what
Speaker 2: do you think of our new Speaker of the House?
Speaker 6: Well, I'm holding my breath. Is he a member of
Speaker 6: the Vote No Hope, Yes Caucus? He voted against Ukraine
Speaker 6: funding when all three of those people McCarthy, Emmer and
Speaker 6: Scleeves voted yes. What kind of leadership is he going
Speaker 6: to give if he's opposing those kinds of things?
Speaker 7: I don't know.
Speaker 6: I'm very nervous that we've got a deadlock house of representatives.
Speaker 6: It's only going to make bad look worse.
Speaker 2: Wow. Joe Biden was asked about him yesterday, Genie. He
Speaker 2: was in the Rose Garden with the Prime Minister of Australia.
Speaker 2: The question pretty obvious for this president, knowing that this
Speaker 2: is not only an election denier, but someone who actually
Speaker 2: wrote the amicus brief in the Texas case to bring
Speaker 2: this to the Supreme Court. Here's how it went to
Speaker 2: the White House.
Speaker 10: If you win reelection in twenty twenty four, are you
Speaker 10: worried that a Speaker Johnson would again attempt to overturn
Speaker 10: the election?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 7: Why not?
Speaker 4: Because he can't?
Speaker 3: Look just like I was not worried that the last
Speaker 3: time I'd be able to overturn the election. They have
Speaker 3: not sixty lawsuits and all the way to the Supreme Court,
Speaker 3: and every time they lost.
Speaker 11: I understand the constitution.
Speaker 2: Do you share his Confidenie?
Speaker 5: Well, I applaud Joe Biden, Unlike Mike Johnson for answering
Speaker 5: the question, because of course, yesterday when Mike Johnson was
Speaker 5: asked the question he was it was Virginia Fox. I
Speaker 5: think who said shut up, shut up to the report.
Speaker 5: So you know, he's a constitutional lawyer described as a
Speaker 5: constitutional scholar, but he does not want to get up
Speaker 5: there and answer questions. So thank you to the President
Speaker 5: for answering. The President seems confident. I'm gonna go with
Speaker 5: Rick and say I'm holding my breath on this aspect
Speaker 5: of it, you know, Mike Johnson, and I'm so glad
Speaker 5: you raised that amicus cure I brief. It's one of
Speaker 5: the most confounding things that he would write the brief
Speaker 5: to help the disgraced Ken Paxton try to say that
Speaker 5: Texas can overturn the votes of four other states, something
Speaker 5: that even the hardliners on the Supreme Court found so
Speaker 5: baffling constitutionally that they didn't even take the case. And
Speaker 5: that is Mike Johnson. We don't know how he's going
Speaker 5: to behave and as speaker, he may turn out to
Speaker 5: be a great speaker. We simply don't know. But the
Speaker 5: reality is we know what he's done before, and that
Speaker 5: is lead the effort to vote to overturn the twenty election,
Speaker 5: defend Donald Trump, and also support Ken Paxton in the
Speaker 5: ridiculousness of Texas overturning other states votes for the presidency.
Speaker 2: Rick, we only have a couple of minutes before our
Speaker 2: sit down conversation with the Treasury Secretary. How concerned are
Speaker 2: you that every member of the Republican Conference voted for
Speaker 2: an election? Denier?
Speaker 6: Yeah, look, I think it's a it's a bad form.
Speaker 6: I'm shocked that Emmer didn't press the point of actually
Speaker 6: having a floor vote for his own Speakership candidacy. Frankly,
Speaker 6: I suspect a bunch of Democrats would have voted for him,
Speaker 6: because in retrospect you look at that and say, gee,
Speaker 6: we could have had Emmer. Democrats are going to really
Speaker 6: pay a price for for not having the opportunity to
Speaker 6: put a reasonable Republican in the seat who actually believed
Speaker 6: the elections weren't flawed. So this has been a horrible
Speaker 6: three week period for the Republican Party. I think the
Speaker 6: onus is going to be on Speaker Johnson to try
Speaker 6: and write that ship. Nothing in his background indicates that
Speaker 6: he has the ability to do that. So this is
Speaker 6: a real test by Fire.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch us
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Speaker 2: Then there's the former president, who, in these wild times
Speaker 2: we've really only been talking about through the guise of
Speaker 2: the speaker race. But this is Donald Trump, who's been
Speaker 2: in court every day lately to talk about the value
Speaker 2: of his company or face off with Michael Cohen or
Speaker 2: whatever might be happening. Ye did you see he took
Speaker 2: the stand yesterday?
Speaker 7: I did.
Speaker 2: This is incredible. Now we keep seeing him in the
Speaker 2: lobby and people are asking questions about yesterday, violating the
Speaker 2: gag order in this case New York curious where with
Speaker 2: respect to what very no any other questions, any other questions.
Speaker 2: They're trying to figure out who was he talking about?
Speaker 2: Who was he disparaging because he goes in there and
Speaker 2: he just you know, he lobs, spitballs at everybody and
Speaker 2: talks negatively about the judge, about the prosecutor in this case,
Speaker 2: though the judge issued a ten thousand dollars fine for
Speaker 2: what is Donald Trump's second violation of a gag order
Speaker 2: in the civil fraud trial against him New York State
Speaker 2: and called him to the stand, asking him to talk
Speaker 2: about what he meant with these remarks. Immediately told him
Speaker 2: he was not credible. Sit down. Here's a ten thousand
Speaker 2: dollars fine.
Speaker 10: Yeah, and as you said, this is the second fine,
Speaker 10: because last week he was fined five thousand dollars for
Speaker 10: violating disorder.
Speaker 2: This is incredible.
Speaker 10: We kind of knew Joe right that this is the
Speaker 10: former president we are talking about. We know how open
Speaker 10: he usually is with his commentary. And when all of
Speaker 10: these either restricted gag orders or you know, different judges
Speaker 10: doing different things, it was a question, how are you
Speaker 10: actually going to enforce that? And I guess we're seeing
Speaker 10: it enforced in this case. But there's many others to
Speaker 10: consider as well.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 2: There are a lot of others. And that's why I
Speaker 2: can't believe we have Dave Ehrenberg in Washington and at
Speaker 2: the table with us. You've heard him, you've seen him
Speaker 2: on zoom and the Palm Beach County State Attorney is
Speaker 2: with us in person. What a treat. It's great to
Speaker 2: see you. Welcome to the Capitol.
Speaker 7: It is great to be with you. Both guys are
Speaker 7: too good looking to be on radio.
Speaker 2: Well that's why.
Speaker 10: They're on YouTube now too.
Speaker 2: My god, Yes, we're doing everything with you today. It's
Speaker 2: great and thanks for coming. My gosh, your thoughts on
Speaker 2: the gag order?
Speaker 4: Here?
Speaker 2: Will this be kind of a weekly Obviously ten thousand
Speaker 2: dollars is not a matter for Donald Trump, but to
Speaker 2: be kind of spanked publicly by the judge like that
Speaker 2: is remarkable. He got up and left. He walked out
Speaker 2: before the session was over.
Speaker 7: I think he gets under Trump's skin like this case,
Speaker 7: whether it's a gag order from a judge he does
Speaker 7: not like, or for the valuation of mar Lago at
Speaker 7: between eighteen and twenty eight million, which is really way
Speaker 7: below market value. It cuts him to the core to
Speaker 7: have to see what's going on there. Even though this
Speaker 7: is not a criminal case. He will not be sent
Speaker 7: to jail for this case, but this one is personal
Speaker 7: for him and as far as what the future punishments
Speaker 7: will be for him if he continues to violate the
Speaker 7: gag order, I think the judge will continue to find
Speaker 7: him increasing amounts of money. It's ten thousand dollars this time,
Speaker 7: maybe the next time he will be fifty and then on.
Speaker 7: But I do not expect this judge to sentence him
Speaker 7: to jail for contempt because after all, it's a civil case,
Speaker 7: not a criminal one.
Speaker 10: Well, and it is a civil case, so are we
Speaker 10: just going to see him stop showing up. He's not
Speaker 10: mandated to be there in the room, right.
Speaker 7: Correct, Unlike a criminal case, he does not have to
Speaker 7: be there for this civil trial. But he has his
Speaker 7: own reasons. He wanted to glower and Michael Cohen. He
Speaker 7: really hates his former lawyer. He wants the optics of
Speaker 7: looking like he's the aggrieved individual here. He wants people
Speaker 7: and his party to believe that somehow he's entitled to
Speaker 7: a jury trial and the court wouldn't give it to him,
Speaker 7: when it's really his own lawyer, Alena Haba, who forgot
Speaker 7: to check the right box. So he only has his
Speaker 7: own lawyers to blame. But nothing fuels Maga like grievance
Speaker 7: and martyrdom. That's why he's showing.
Speaker 2: Up and just having a blast talking to cameras every day.
Speaker 2: But to be called to the stand like that, it
Speaker 2: was like, you know, the troubled student called at the
Speaker 2: front of the class to be scolded. How often are
Speaker 2: we going to see that type of thing. The idea
Speaker 2: of Donald Trump ending up on the stand might suggest
Speaker 2: it's not always wise to show up when you don't.
Speaker 7: Have that's right. You know, he can end up in
Speaker 7: a perjury trap himself, and so it's not always a
Speaker 7: great idea. But look, lawyers can't control their own defendants,
Speaker 7: especially defendants their clients like Donald Trump. Donald Trump wants
Speaker 7: to be there, he will be there, and he has
Speaker 7: other motivations. It's about the optics. He's the leading candidate
Speaker 7: for president, and he wants people to believe that I
Speaker 7: am aggrieved. I could be in Iowa right now, but
Speaker 7: I have to be here, when in reality he was
Speaker 7: missing a golf match by being in court. Excellent, But
Speaker 7: it's all about show.
Speaker 10: Yeah, well, we definitely know that for sure that the
Speaker 10: former president does have a reputation for being quite a
Speaker 10: showman every day. This is how he operates. And as
Speaker 10: we were just alluding to, this is just one case
Speaker 10: that he is facing, and it's a civil case. He's
Speaker 10: facing a multitude of criminal cases as well. And the
Speaker 10: one I think that has been the most interesting over
Speaker 10: the course of the last several weeks is Georgia the
Speaker 10: racketeering case. There's now been what four plea deals, some
Speaker 10: high profile including Jenna Ellis, Mark Sidney Powell, Mark Meadows,
Speaker 10: Scott Hall. Do you think this is just dominoes that
Speaker 10: are going to fall one by one? How do you
Speaker 10: think this is going to play out?
Speaker 7: I think there'll be more defendants copying the plea. They're
Speaker 7: going to get FOMO. These other defendants, I fear a
Speaker 7: missing out.
Speaker 10: And there's what fourteen others here that we are considering.
Speaker 2: Look at this. If you're on YouTube, you can see
Speaker 2: all the mugshots that got them in two different columns.
Speaker 7: Now, yeah, see, I'm guilty, all not guilty. All those
Speaker 7: folks in the right, they all have FOMO. They are
Speaker 7: worrying that the longer they weigh, the worst the deal
Speaker 7: will get. Right now, the folks on the left, if
Speaker 7: you're on YouTube, you can see the four of them,
Speaker 7: they got plea deals with no jail time. They were
Speaker 7: facing years in prison. But first one in is the
Speaker 7: first to win. That's something defense law is like to say.
Speaker 7: If you get in first the prosecutor's door, you get
Speaker 7: the best deal. But that door is closing soon and
Speaker 7: I anticipate that future plea deals. Maybe not yet, but
Speaker 7: pretty soon they'll start including incarceration.
Speaker 2: Wow, what do you make of the Meadows deal? Specifically,
Speaker 2: as compelled as I am to talk about Sidney Powell
Speaker 2: at any turn, the idea here, and we've heard a
Speaker 2: lot of people suggest this, including Chris Christy yesterday, of course,
Speaker 2: a former prosecutor. You don't just cut a deal with
Speaker 2: the chief of staff who was clearly involved in this
Speaker 2: and may well deserve to be punished for his role
Speaker 2: that he played unless he's really got some important Was
Speaker 2: that the deal that closes the walls in on Donald Trump?
Speaker 7: Well, we don't know. Joe Weather Mark Meadows cut a
Speaker 7: deal with prosecutors other than receiving immunity to test why
Speaker 7: before the grand jury. So apparently he spoke to Jacksmith's
Speaker 7: team three separate times this year and test why before
Speaker 7: the grand jury. You cannot force someone to self incriminate
Speaker 7: unless you give them immunity at the grand jury. That's
Speaker 7: what happens. So they call him before the grand jury,
Speaker 7: they say we're going to give you immunity, and then
Speaker 7: he testifies truthfully. But as far as weather he entered
Speaker 7: into a non prosecution deal where I will be a
Speaker 7: cooperating witness in return for your not prosecuting me. That's
Speaker 7: not clear. It's be up to ultimately Jack Smith and
Speaker 7: Mark Meadows whether it goes that far. But right now
Speaker 7: I'm just thinking he just tests by before the grand
Speaker 7: jury got immunity for his testimony, and I can't extrapolate
Speaker 7: beyond that.
Speaker 2: That's really something we should clarify. That is the January
Speaker 2: sixth case here in Washington, And I'm actually curious the
Speaker 2: Sydney and the others you mentioned in Georgia, Kayley, are
Speaker 2: they also talking to Jack Smith at the same time.
Speaker 7: There's no indication that Sidney Powell is talking to Jack Smith,
Speaker 7: but it looks like Mark Meadows people wanted us to
Speaker 7: know that he was talking to the grand jury to
Speaker 7: Jack Smith for whatever reason. Now what's interesting is how
Speaker 7: does Fannie Willis take this. Fannie Wills has got to
Speaker 7: be concerned that she really should not try to use
Speaker 7: the information that Mark Meadows gave to Jack Smith under
Speaker 7: immunity against him in the state case, because then there
Speaker 7: are some complex issues of whether state proscuers can feed
Speaker 7: off of the information where he was grand immunity. There
Speaker 7: was an Oliver North case, you remember that guy. He
Speaker 7: was ultimately cleared or at least found the case was
Speaker 7: thrown out against him because of those types of issues.
Speaker 7: So proscuers are very careful. So I think what's going
Speaker 7: to happen is she's going to continue to go after
Speaker 7: Mark Meadows, who is an indicted individual in Fulton County,
Speaker 7: based on the evidence she accumulates, not on the evidence
Speaker 7: that Jack Smith gives her.
Speaker 10: But overall Marcmetto's aside with the other plea deals that
Speaker 10: have now been entered, her job is getting easier, not harder, generally.
Speaker 7: Right, It is definitely getting easier when you have a
Speaker 7: number of your co defendants flip because nineteen co defendants,
Speaker 7: that's very difficult, and in a reco case that takes
Speaker 7: months to try. What was going to happen is you
Speaker 7: had two people, cheesebro and Sidney Powell, who requested speedy trial.
Speaker 7: They were going to be tried first. They were going
Speaker 7: to give Donald Trump a dress rehearsal. They were going
Speaker 7: to expose the state's arguments. It was to Donald Trump's benefit.
Speaker 7: But now they're out of the way. So not only
Speaker 7: does Donald Trump not get to see an advanced copy
Speaker 7: of the prosecution. He also could be tried before the election.
Speaker 7: Had the others been tried first, it would have pushed
Speaker 7: his case beyond the election. But now there's no one
Speaker 7: to wait for.
Speaker 2: That's incredible and something that we have to remember with,
Speaker 2: you know, as we juggled for indictments. With all of
Speaker 2: that said, you consider his life over the next year
Speaker 2: as he's running for president. Made the point, Hey, I
Speaker 2: wish I could be in Iowa, but I'm here in
Speaker 2: court on some days. That might actually be true. And
Speaker 2: his campaign will need him to be in certain places.
Speaker 2: How much flexibility will he have to actually run for
Speaker 2: president while he's managing all these That's.
Speaker 7: A really good question because we don't know the schedule yet.
Speaker 7: I do believe the case that will happen before the
Speaker 7: election is the case in DC that we've been discussing
Speaker 7: Judge Chuck, and she's not fooling around, and that case
Speaker 7: from Jack Smith is built for speed. There are no
Speaker 7: other co defendants. There are unindicted ones, but not indicted ones.
Speaker 7: There are only four counts against Trump. Because Jack Smith
Speaker 7: wants that to happen before the election, and I think
Speaker 7: it will so can he campaign fully while being put
Speaker 7: on trial? I don't know, but I don't think. I'm
Speaker 7: not certain that the other cases will happen before the election.
Speaker 7: I think because of the plea deals now, it's a
Speaker 7: better chance the Fulton County one happens before the election.
Speaker 7: But I think the strongest case against Trump is the
Speaker 7: one in my neck of the woods good Documents case.
Speaker 7: They got them dead to rights there. But you got
Speaker 7: Judge Cannon, who's not quite Judge Chuckan. She's new, and
Speaker 7: she is slow walking this thing. And I think that
Speaker 7: case is going to get pushed beyond the election.
Speaker 10: And if we're saying then beyond the election, he very
Speaker 10: well could be president at that time, right, So how
Speaker 10: would that? Does that mean that this case just never
Speaker 10: gets tried? To feel like that's where we get into
Speaker 10: really murky waters? Are you now having a sitting president
Speaker 10: of the United States on trial?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 7: I don't think it's a murky firm at all. I
Speaker 7: think that's his only defense, that he has no defense
Speaker 7: to the document's case they got him. His only defense
Speaker 7: is become president and then order his Department of Justice
Speaker 7: to drop the case. That's what he'll do, and the
Speaker 7: case goes bye bye. The Trigckier one is what happens
Speaker 7: if he's convicted in Atlanta or in New York, which
Speaker 7: also could happen for the election itself. In the state case,
Speaker 7: he can't pardon himself. You know what will happen? So
Speaker 7: if becomes president and he's convicted or they keep trying
Speaker 7: to prosecute him, he'll say, Okay, New York, Okay, Georgia,
Speaker 7: I'm surrounded by my secret service here in the Oval Office.
Speaker 7: Come and get me. Yeah, who will be a constution.
Speaker 2: Crisis to say that the reality continues? Is it wrong?
Speaker 2: I'm admiring the lapel pin, the badge. I don't know
Speaker 2: if people can see that, probably not on YouTube. Is
Speaker 2: it wrong that I want one of those? Does that
Speaker 2: make me a herschel walker?
Speaker 1: Is that?
Speaker 2: Is that like a state attorney's How do you get that?
Speaker 7: You can't get this in a costume store. You've got
Speaker 7: to get elected state attorney at one of these days.
Speaker 2: That's so cool.
Speaker 7: Now here's the here's the insider tip there. We exchange
Speaker 7: them with each other. So this is actually someone.
Speaker 2: Else's tell me it's funny, Willis's.
Speaker 7: This is Tim Cruz from Massachusetts looking at it.
Speaker 2: Hey, my friend, no kidding, Republican to Massachusetts. I love that.
Speaker 2: Dave Ehrenberg, what a treat to have you in Washington.
Speaker 2: Get home safe, good luck here in the Capitol. I'm
Speaker 2: Joe Matthew with Kayley Lines. This is Bloomberg.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch the
Speaker 1: program live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, Tune
Speaker 1: in alf Bloomberg dot Com, and the Bloomberg Business App.
Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our
Speaker 1: flagship New York station, Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty.
Speaker 2: As we head for Bloomberg BusinessWeek, we want to bring
Speaker 2: you an important conversation with Paul Beckett. You might have
Speaker 2: heard him a couple of months ago. Join us on
Speaker 2: Bloomberg as the bureau chief of the Wall Street Journal
Speaker 2: here in Washington, DC, and Kayley. As I said earlier,
Speaker 2: it's not too often that you see Bloomberg and the
Speaker 2: WSJ making news together here. But it's important because he's
Speaker 2: not actually the bureau chief, at least not at the
Speaker 2: moment in Washington. He's become assistant editor of the journal
Speaker 2: dedicated the efforts to secure Evan Gershkovic's release. And it's
Speaker 2: Evan's birthday, ye thirty two years old, his two hundred
Speaker 2: and eleventh day of incarceration, as I read on the
Speaker 2: Wall Street Journal. And it's always an honor to bring
Speaker 2: Paul back on the air. It's good to see you,
Speaker 2: and thanks for coming across town to say hello to us.
Speaker 2: If you're with us on YouTube, see Paul's pin that
Speaker 2: says free Evan that I suspect you're wearing everywhere right now.
Speaker 2: And I just wonder if you could give us an
Speaker 2: update on his situation, what you're hearing from him when
Speaker 2: the last time he spoke.
Speaker 11: Thank you so much. He is in decent shape, but
Speaker 11: in decent shape in a Russian prison where he's been
Speaker 11: for two hundred and eleven days. As you mentioned, he
Speaker 11: spends a great deal of that time in isolation. He's
Speaker 11: given one hour in the prison yard each day. He's
Speaker 11: working very hard to keep himself in shape, both mentally
Speaker 11: and physically. But we really just see this stretching on
Speaker 11: far too long, and we hope everything can be done
Speaker 11: to bring him home.
Speaker 10: Yeah, what's his degree of optimism and your degree of optimism?
Speaker 10: That his incarceration there is going to end anytime soon.
Speaker 11: This will end with the negotiation between the US government
Speaker 11: and the Russian government, So we would just like to
Speaker 11: see more action taken. At the moment, his pre trial
Speaker 11: attention will last until November thirtieth. They have twelve months
Speaker 11: to keep extending that detention, so that would put it
Speaker 11: into the spring of next year. But it's so opate.
Speaker 11: We don't even really know when you'll go to trial
Speaker 11: and what happens after that, so it's very murky, and
Speaker 11: that's the dispariting part.
Speaker 2: So is this a diplomatic solution, a prisoner swap, or
Speaker 2: is it actually infect a legal resolution that you're hoping for.
Speaker 11: One of the ways it will happen, and probably the
Speaker 11: most likely, given what's happened in the past, is through
Speaker 11: a prisoner swap. He has been accused of very serious
Speaker 11: espionized charges, which we of course will say to the
Speaker 11: end of the earth are completely false, but he will
Speaker 11: probably go into the Russian statement. So far, I have
Speaker 11: to go through that trial before the meaningful negotiations can
Speaker 11: take place. We hope to circuit that process, but in
Speaker 11: the mists ahead, that's about all we.
Speaker 10: Can see so you suggested you would like to see
Speaker 10: the US doing more here to push this What kind
Speaker 10: of conversations are you having with the Biden administration with
Speaker 10: those in government who may be able to help push
Speaker 10: this case. How committed do they seem to Evans?
Speaker 3: Cause?
Speaker 11: President Biden met with Evans family at the Whites correspond
Speaker 11: Association dinner and made a promise there to bring Evan home.
Speaker 11: So that's something that they have been relying on that
Speaker 11: we have been relying on for action. We can't see
Speaker 11: everything obviously that the government is doing. The public statements
Speaker 11: have been encouraging that this is a top priority, but
Speaker 11: we just want to make sure that it remains there.
Speaker 2: Boy, can you describe the conditions that he's in there?
Speaker 2: We spoke last time about the facility that he was
Speaker 2: staying and is he still there? Is he around other
Speaker 2: people or is he isolated?
Speaker 11: He's in the the forte of a prison Maxicmum Security
Speaker 11: Security Services prison in Moscow. We think he's in okay shape.
Speaker 11: We have lawyers that go in to see him once
Speaker 11: a week. He's had a few visits from the US
Speaker 11: ambassador to Moscow. So from what we can tell, it
Speaker 11: is he's reading he's meditating, he's exercising when he can,
Speaker 11: but it's a lot of work in the circumstances are awful.
Speaker 10: I'm sure is there anything that the journal is doing
Speaker 10: as well? For those journalists who are not currently incarcerated
Speaker 10: in Russia but still have to do the kind of
Speaker 10: work that Evan was doing and that he is now
Speaker 10: being essentially punished for. What do you do to make
Speaker 10: sure that others don't end up in the position he
Speaker 10: is currently in.
Speaker 11: Well, we are actually trying to be helpful in a
Speaker 11: position of another reporter who is in a similar circumstance.
Speaker 11: Alsu Kumasheva from Free Europe Radio Liberty was detained in
Speaker 11: Russia recently. So the extent that we can our experience
Speaker 11: can be helpful to them, then of course I'm more
Speaker 11: than happy to engage on that. I think overall, what
Speaker 11: you're seeing is a real stifling of what little free
Speaker 11: press or independent press there was in Russia. So so
Speaker 11: many reporters now have to cover Russia from outside, from Warsaw,
Speaker 11: from Berlin, from Dubai, from wherever they can, and it's
Speaker 11: just not the same.
Speaker 2: We're spending time with Paul Beckett from the Wall Street
Speaker 2: journal who is working to secure Evan Gershkovich's release as
Speaker 2: people consider what he's going through right now, and more broadly,
Speaker 2: what journalists are facing on a daily basis. Here we've
Speaker 2: got journalists in very dangerous places and it could get
Speaker 2: a lot more dangerous, for instance, in the Middle East.
Speaker 2: Does it change policies at the journal and the way
Speaker 2: that you look at deploying reporters around the world.
Speaker 11: We've always, as I'm shore Bloomberg, has put the safety
Speaker 11: of our reporters first absolutely. In spite of having very
Speaker 11: strict protocols, bad things will happen, and to some degree
Speaker 11: is the nature of the business. You do see a
Speaker 11: increase in violence towards harassment of and targeting of journalists
Speaker 11: around the world. We've seen it recently in the Middle
Speaker 11: East with sim Abdallah, the writers Yes reporter in Lebanon
Speaker 11: who is monitoring a live feed and he was killed
Speaker 11: and several other reporters were injured when that location was
Speaker 11: hit by a missile. So it is very dangerous days
Speaker 11: for reporters out there, and I think sometimes press can
Speaker 11: be an easy punching bag. I think it's a moment
Speaker 11: to reflect on how many people do extraordinary things to
Speaker 11: bring us.
Speaker 2: A news producer, Matt reminds us Kayley thirty four journalists
Speaker 2: killed in a line of duty this year. So far
Speaker 2: this calendar year, five hundred and ten journalists are detained
Speaker 2: as we speak.
Speaker 10: And Evan, of course, is one of them. Obviously, I
Speaker 10: know communication reaching him in a communicative way is probably
Speaker 10: immensely difficult. But if you had one message for him
Speaker 10: on what is again his thirty second birthday, could you
Speaker 10: share that for us.
Speaker 11: We're doing everything we can to make sure he doesn't
Speaker 11: spend his thirty third birthday in jail.
Speaker 2: How often, if at all, does the journal does his
Speaker 2: employer get to speak with him or is it through
Speaker 2: his lawyers on that weekly basis that you referenced.
Speaker 11: That's the chief point of contact. We have letters going
Speaker 11: in now. His family write some letters, his colleagues write
Speaker 11: him letters, and in those letters they try and fill
Speaker 11: him in on what he's missing the world. I think
Speaker 11: that's the messages that he wants to hear. He is
Speaker 11: a huge arsenal FC fan. He wants to hear they're doing.
Speaker 11: His sister sends him celebrity gossip to keep him up
Speaker 11: to speed. Anything that will boy, his spirits during such
Speaker 11: difficult time and his strength there is an inspiration to
Speaker 11: all of us doing well.
Speaker 2: I want you to know how much we respect the
Speaker 2: role that you've taken on there. You were the Washington
Speaker 2: Bureau chief, which is a very proud position, and the
Speaker 2: fact that you're doing this full time to secure his
Speaker 2: release is honorable and we thank you for what you're doing.
Speaker 2: There's not a lot that we can do here, I think, Kaylee.
Speaker 2: Other thing keep talking about this and keep reporting on it,
Speaker 2: and Paul, that's the pledge that we'll make to you,
Speaker 2: So stay in touch with us.
Speaker 11: Greatly appreciate, great, Thank you by so much.
Speaker 2: Thank you for the all Beckett from the Wall Street
Speaker 2: Journal with us here on an important conversation on the
Speaker 2: thirty second birthday of Evan Gershkovich, Joe Matthew and Washington
Speaker 2: along with Kaylee Lines. Thank you so much for spending
Speaker 2: time with us on the radio, on the satellite, and
Speaker 2: on YouTube. We certainly learn a lot today, as always, Kaylee,
Speaker 2: and we'll be back with one more of these. Tell
Speaker 2: me it's real. Tomorrow is Friday home stretch check on
Speaker 2: a working weekend. Right, We've got a speaker.
Speaker 10: We got some things worked well, don't Chinxit now?
Speaker 2: Fuh fair enough with Kaylee, I'm joke. Thanks for listening
Speaker 2: to the sound on podcast. Make sure to subscribe if
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