1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome to Rivals, 2 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 1: the show about music rivalries, beefs, feuds, long simmering resentments. 3 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 1: I'm your host Stephen America host Jordan's Today. I'm very 4 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: excited to talk about this rivalry because I feel like 5 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: this ravelry has in a way become unsung. Uh. It 6 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: was a big deal in the early part of the 7 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: two thousand tents. It's funny because when I wrote my 8 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: book Your Favorite Band Is Killing Me, I showed a 9 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 1: copy of the book to a famous music critic and 10 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: there's a chapter in the book about Kanye West and 11 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: Taylor Swift. And when he read the book, he was like, 12 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 1: why aren't you talking about Taylor Swift and Katie Perry, 13 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: which is what we're gonna talk about today, Because in 14 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: the mid two thousand tents, it seemed like that was 15 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: going to be the big ravelry involving Taylor Swift, that 16 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: Katie Perry was going to be her rival, not Kanye West. 17 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: And of course, now differently, we know differently. All we 18 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: talk about with Taylor Swift in terms of rivalries is 19 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: her and Kanye West, which is of course a great rivalry, 20 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: and I'm sure we'll talk about it on this show 21 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:13,960 Speaker 1: at some point. But you know, I feel like a 22 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: lot of people are talking about that ravelry. The tenth 23 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: anniversary of the two thousand nine v A Maze was 24 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: was recently, and you know, there's a lot of retrospectives 25 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: about it. We're all talking about it. But the unsung 26 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: Ravelry with Taylor Swift with her and Katie Perry isn't 27 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 1: a way just as ridiculous as the Kanye West ravelry, 28 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: and if not more so, Like wouldn't you say, I mean, 29 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,399 Speaker 1: this ravelry is delicious. Oh, it's so good. And also, 30 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: I mean, in terms of sparking their musical trajectory, I 31 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: think I had more of an influence than Kanye by 32 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 1: far on both of their musical output. That's a bold statement. 33 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: I like it. How I stand by that. I mean, 34 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: think about listen to Witness, listen to Reputation, back to back. Well, 35 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: I feel like, I feel like, if you're gonna throw 36 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 1: something out there, we gotta build the case. By the end. 37 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: Maybe people agree with you. They're like, I'm not sure 38 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: about it right now, but forty five minutes from now, 39 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: after we've laid it up, maybe they will say that 40 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: all right, let's dive into this battle. Katy Perry and 41 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: Taylor Swift, they start to intersect around two thous they 42 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 1: become friends and they started beefing. But I feel like 43 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: if you look at their careers before that point, there's 44 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 1: some interesting parallels. Like, for instance, let's let's talk about 45 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 1: Katy Perry's career. Now, she she's born like Taylor Swift. 46 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: She starts her career relatively early, like she gets a 47 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: g E. D. When she's fifteen, and she starts, you know, 48 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: pursuing a musical career, not in the secular world, the 49 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: commercial pop world, but as a Christian pop star. And 50 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 1: in two thousand one, she puts out her first record 51 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:44,799 Speaker 1: under her birth name. Do you know what her birth 52 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: name is? Kate Hudson, Kate Hudson. Now there is another 53 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,639 Speaker 1: Kate Hudson, very famous Kate, very famous Kate Hudson. And 54 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: you know, if we if we think back to two 55 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 1: thousand one, that was around the time that almost famous 56 00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 1: comes out, and it just makes the more famous Kate 57 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 1: Hudson at least that point, it blows her up, makes 58 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 1: her a huge movie star. Now there's a woman coming 59 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: along called Katie Hudson trying to put out a Christian 60 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 1: pop record right after that. It's safe to say that 61 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: there was room for only one Kate Hudson in the 62 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: world in two thousand one. So Katie Hudson kind of 63 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: comes and goes. For the next six seven years, she's 64 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: trying to get a music career going. She signs with 65 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 1: def Jam in Colombia. She gets nowhere with those labels. 66 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,839 Speaker 1: I believe that she recorded a song for the Traveling Sisterhood. 67 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: Wait am I getting Traveling Patch. She's on that soundtrack. Shockingly, 68 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: that does not turn her into a superstar. She is 69 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: struggling really, really hard. She finally signs another record deal 70 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 1: with Capitol Records in two thousand seven. The following year, 71 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: she puts out the song I Kissed a Girl. That's 72 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: her breakout hit. And this is an interesting thing. I 73 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: had forgotten about this part of Katie Perry's career. She 74 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: was on the Warp Tour in two eight Do you 75 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: remember that? That's right, Yeah, I forgot about that. The 76 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: Warp Tour, of course, is the traveling tour that's associated 77 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: with like pop punk bands. You know, you don't really 78 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: think of Katie Pry Charlotte Good Charlotte, you know gold Finger. 79 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: I don't like all those, like all those like nineties 80 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: band pop punk bands or SKA bands. And Katy Perry's 81 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: in that world. She's kind of like a Charlie xc 82 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 1: X maybe of that era, kind of like the she's 83 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: like a pop star, but she's kind of like an 84 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 1: underground pop star. And then, of course, in two thousand ten, 85 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:29,159 Speaker 1: things completely changed for her. She puts out their record 86 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,840 Speaker 1: Teenage Dream, which is one of the sort of big 87 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: blockbuster pop records of this decade some would say one 88 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: of the best pop records, would say, of modern times. 89 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: And it really turns her into the Katy Perry that 90 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: we all know and love today. Like that is sort 91 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: of Katy Perry. I guess that might be like Katy 92 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:51,159 Speaker 1: Perry three point out. At that point, She's had many 93 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: career reboots, but that is the Katy Perry that sticks. 94 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 1: Let's go back again. We have Taylor Swift. Now, while 95 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 1: Katy Perry is trying to get her career going, Taylor 96 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: Swift is becoming one of the biggest country stars pretty 97 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: much right off from her first record, which comes out 98 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,039 Speaker 1: in two thousand and six, and I don't know, do 99 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: you know much about like Taylor Swift's like early career, 100 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: Like she you know, her dad was like a stockbroker 101 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 1: and like Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania, and then went down to Nashville 102 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 1: to uh to try to a better position. Right, Yeah, 103 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: And apparently her dad actually bought part ownership of Big 104 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: Machine Records, which was like her original record label. So, 105 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: like Taylor Swift is sort of like the prototypical child 106 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: star at this point, Like she's a talented kid, she's 107 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: a cute kid. Her parents are behind her career. And 108 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 1: I think it's safe to say that this paid off 109 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: big time in the case of Taylor Swift, because in 110 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 1: two thousand and six, she puts out her first record. 111 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: It's a self titled record. She either wrote or co 112 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,720 Speaker 1: wrote all the songs on the album, and that record 113 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:54,919 Speaker 1: is on the Billboard charts for like a hundred and 114 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: fifty weeks after that becomes a huge hit, subsequently sells 115 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: in the neighborhood of about eight million copies. From there, 116 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 1: she is on the way to becoming the biggest pop 117 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: star of the early twenty one century. Two thousand eight, 118 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: she puts out Fearless. In two thousand ten, she puts 119 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: out speak. Now, this is around the time the Teenage 120 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 1: Dream comes out, and she's already making inroads from being 121 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: a huge country star at this point to being a 122 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 1: big pop star. And in two thousand ten, Katie Perry 123 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: is also a huge pop star. So now these two 124 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: start being at the same award shows together, and this 125 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:32,720 Speaker 1: is like around the time they start becoming friends, right right, Yeah, 126 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: they started off friendly. I mean, Taylor tweeted at her 127 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 1: one saying how much she loved the Waking Up in 128 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 1: Vegas video, and Katie responded saying, you know, Taylor was 129 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: sweet as pie and kind of jokingly talked about doing 130 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 1: a song together. Have you seen that? I don't remember 131 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: that video? Wake Me Up in Vegas? Is that? What 132 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 1: album is that? I think that's one of the boys. Actually, 133 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 1: now I'm one of the boys, the two I believe, 134 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:59,159 Speaker 1: So I'm I'm sure of tweets about that, But my 135 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 1: Perry null kind of peaks with Teenage Dreams, so like 136 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: before and after, I'm a little sketch here. So anyway, 137 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: Taylor was already a stand when she did her Fearless tour, 138 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 1: and when it hit l A, she invited Katie to 139 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: perform Hot and Cold together. I mean they were relatively close. U. 140 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: Katie gave an interview where she said that when they 141 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: hung out one of the Grammy Awards, she got locks 142 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: of hair from Taylor and Miley and wrapped them up 143 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: in little bows and carried them around in her purse. 144 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: Totally normal, which is completely not voodoo behavior at all. 145 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 1: I think that I think that's very healthy and it 146 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: doesn't treat me out at least, not at all. And 147 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: I'm absolutely not going to check eBay later to see 148 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 1: if if that's where they wound up. But no, they were. 149 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: They were close and friendly for a while. I think 150 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: they attended to each other's birthdays and things like that, 151 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: and everything seemed fine in Katie Taylor world until Taylor 152 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: prepared to release ninety nine in the fall of You 153 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: have a Rolling Stone interview, and she talked about at 154 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: the time the song was unreleased, but a song on 155 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: the album called bad Blood, and she didn't mention by name, 156 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: but you said that the song was about one another 157 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: woman in music who quote did something so horrible that 158 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: it ended their friendship for good. And she said things like, 159 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: for years, I was never sure if we were friends 160 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: or not who come up to me at award shows 161 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: and say something and walk away, And I think, are 162 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: we friends? Or does she just give me the harshest 163 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: insult in my life? And then she, throughout the course 164 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: of the interview said that she for her Red Tour, 165 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: I believe got dancers from that had historically worked with 166 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 1: Katie Perry on her Teenage Dream Tour. And then before 167 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: the Red Tour was over, um, when Katie released prism 168 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 1: In basically called up these three dancers if you had 169 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: a relationship with and said, hey, do you want to 170 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: come out in the road with me for the prism tour? 171 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,199 Speaker 1: For Prismatic I forget what it was called. And uh, 172 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: if you know, you're welcome, but you have to leave 173 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: the Taylor's Tour early. So let's pause for a second. 174 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: You know, two thousand twelve is when Red comes out. 175 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: The Taylor Swift records, your favorite Taylor Swift record, That 176 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: is my favorite. That is a bold I am very 177 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: it's not bold. It's not bold. It's not bold if 178 00:08:57,320 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: you have good taste, ladies and gentlemen. It is obviously 179 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: the let's call it the watershed of Taylor Swift's career. 180 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: She puts it out in two thousand twelve. It has 181 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: a little bit of country in it, and it has 182 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: a little bit of pop. Bringing it all back home 183 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: of exactly. It's the bringing it all back home of 184 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: the Taylor Swift career. It's the exile in Main Street 185 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: of Taylor Swift's career. Doing a little bit of everything 186 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 1: on that album and doing everything very well. So she's 187 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,319 Speaker 1: gonna be doing this blockbuster tour in support of it, 188 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: and again she's she's going into the pop world. So 189 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: she needs backup dancers. You cannot be a pop star 190 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 1: if you do not have a crew of backup dancers 191 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: behind you, a fleet of failing a fleet. And yeah, 192 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 1: so she tried to hire three dancers from Katie Perry 193 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 1: and then, of course Katie Perry. She puts out her 194 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:44,439 Speaker 1: record Prism in two thirteen, which, again, you know, the 195 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: Katie cats out there might disagree with this. I think 196 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: it's safe to say that Prism is sort of the 197 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 1: beginning of her decline as a pop star. Teenage Dream 198 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: is a peak. Prism is like when she's starting to 199 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: sort of be a little bit more introspective, a little 200 00:09:57,280 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: less sort of colorful and brash and over the top, 201 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: which kind of defines her teenage dream era. She's trying 202 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: to be like a little more sort of singer songwriter, 203 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: not really working for Katie Perry. But so she and 204 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 1: she took these dancers back right right. And I don't 205 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 1: think it was done. I mean, I have no idea, 206 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: don't know these people, but I don't think it was 207 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: done in a malicious way. I think it was, yeah, 208 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 1: you want to come back and work with me like 209 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 1: he did a couple of years ago. We can speculate, Okay, 210 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: what do you say, speculate. I really, I genuinely don't 211 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: think it was a malicious way. I think they had 212 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: a prior relationship and they got along well with her 213 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 1: and said, you know, you want to come back on 214 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: my next tour. Great, but you're gonna have to leave 215 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: the Red Tour a little early. I forget how much earlier. 216 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: But takes us the wrong way, and this is invading 217 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:43,079 Speaker 1: the sedate and land. This is this is bad. You 218 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: were very you were removing a brick from my jinga 219 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 1: of of greatness. Here, my tour is going to fall 220 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: apart because you've removed these three dancers. So it's understood 221 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: that this is sort of like the beginning of their feud, 222 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 1: although there is an alternate theory here where the John 223 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: Mayor theory chaos agent, which John Mayor is a chaos agent, 224 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: and the relationship between Taylor Swift and Katie Perry, because 225 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: we all know that John Mayer and Taylor Swift appeared 226 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: to have some sort of relationship circa in the February 227 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 1: of that of two thousand ten. I think it was 228 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: very but it's major enough for Taylor Swift to write 229 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: a song called Dear John's Years on the third Taylor 230 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: Swift record Speak Now. I don't know if she ever 231 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: officially confirmed that's about John Mayer, but it's like called 232 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: Dear John. We know John Mayor's a dog. Has she 233 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: ever confirmed that, I don't think. I don't think she has, 234 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: so I find it hard to believe that there wasn't 235 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: at least some role that he played in at least 236 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: turning maybe Katie Perry in a negative direction towards Taylor Swift. 237 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 1: That's possible. I mean, Taylor always went on our way 238 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:51,839 Speaker 1: to say that their few it was never about a guy, 239 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: never about a guy. It was business. It was about 240 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: this this tour dancer business. Uh, which and I like 241 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 1: that that's supposed to be the more reasonable explain nation 242 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: that it's about Uh, you know, it's not. It's not 243 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 1: about her boyfriend. It's about these dancers, you know, like 244 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: because that's more of a career that is fighting over well, 245 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:11,959 Speaker 1: you know, I mean that that's such a reductive way 246 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 1: to fighting well. And and to be clear, I'm not 247 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 1: saying that, um, they were fighting over John Mayer. I 248 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:20,679 Speaker 1: don't think Taylor Swift was interested in John Mayer. I'm 249 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: just saying that from Katie Perry's perspective. You know, her 250 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 1: boyfriend is John Mayer, and Taylor Swift wrote a song 251 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 1: that humiliated John Mayer publicly. You think that at least subconsciously, 252 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 1: that would maybe affect her opinion of Taylor Swift, Like 253 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: if you know, she's not a pop star, she's like 254 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: an ex who has like written a really mean Facebook 255 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:45,719 Speaker 1: post about the man that you love. Except it's like 256 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,199 Speaker 1: a hit song that has sold on an album that's 257 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:51,079 Speaker 1: sold like, you know, ten million copies. So anyway, I'm 258 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: just floating that out there. I find it hard to 259 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: believe that that that that didn't have at least some 260 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: role to play in this whole very very interesting theory, 261 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: very compelling theory. All right, we'll right back with more rivals. 262 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: It goes beyond dancers, right, I mean, there's other things 263 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: that happened after that. Well, that was sort of the 264 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 1: point when it all became public. And then of course 265 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 1: she released bad Blood the song, and then um a 266 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:26,439 Speaker 1: few months later I think it was after the Billboard 267 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: Music Awards and made to release the video which she 268 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 1: basically has her entire crew as this. You know, I 269 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 1: think she plays an assassin called Catastrophe I think is 270 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: the character that the Taylor plays in it, and she 271 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: has her her squad all act as her. You know. 272 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: It's almost like it's almost like a Marvel cast or something. 273 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: It is a very impressive video the Justice League, right, 274 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: and Selena Gomez, who was at least at the time 275 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: one of her best friends, plays the villain in the video, 276 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: and it's all very uh superhero you know, action movie, 277 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 1: good guy, bad guy kind of thing. And can't remember 278 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:02,680 Speaker 1: the video precisely, I mean, is it Are there any 279 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: like hints that she's talking about Katy Perry at all? 280 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: Are there like any Kitty Perry? Not one, I don't think. 281 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:10,679 Speaker 1: But later and we'll get to that later with everything 282 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: on reputation. But yeah, and then it got a lot 283 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: more blatant. But also in the summer of was the 284 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: whole VMA's controversy that kind of just was It seemed 285 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: like a giant misunderstanding. Nicki Minaj was really disappointed that 286 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 1: her Antacono video didn't get nominated for Video of the 287 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: Year category, and she tweeted, Uh, if your video celebrates 288 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: women with very slim bodies, you will be nominated for 289 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 1: Video of the Year. Taylor viewed this as a direct 290 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 1: attack on her, and she wrote back and tweeted back 291 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: at her, have done nothing but love and support you. 292 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: It's unlike you to put women against each other. Maybe 293 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: one of the men took your slot and it started 294 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: this whole kind of awkward back and forth. Katie weighs 295 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: in on Twitter also because everything now and when the tens, 296 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: every feud goes to Twitter immediately. Uh said that she 297 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: found it quote ironic that Swift would cite the pit 298 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: w and against each other argument when her own song 299 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: was literally about women fighting, which is a fair point, 300 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 1: fair point point for Katy Perry on that one. I 301 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: gotta say, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna I'm gonna throw 302 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: this out here right now that I'm leaning towards Katy 303 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: Perry and this I'm very sympathetic Katy Perry. I'm just 304 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: throwing that just to throw that out there to the 305 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: listeners that anything I say after this just know that 306 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: I'm probably a little bit biased. So that will affect 307 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: my commentary on this controversy. I will say, and I 308 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: should have said this at the start of the episode. 309 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 1: I um I I recently one of my tweets about 310 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: Taylor Swift recently went semi viral in like five minutes 311 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: after I posted it. So I've experienced the power of 312 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: the Swifties firsthand a week or two ago, and it 313 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: was both awesome and terrifying. So I would like to 314 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: say to all the Swifties, my ear drums are not 315 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: fit to receive her musical gifts. Taylor Swift is a 316 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 1: better person than me. Well, now you're gonna stick the 317 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: Katie Cats on you, though you're right Cats they don't 318 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: play either. So but I think Taylor and Nicki Murna. 319 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 1: I believe that they reconciled, at least briefly performed on 320 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: stage at Um at the VMA's that year. Actually they did. 321 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 1: I think it was. I think it was Bad Blood. 322 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: Maybe I'm wrong. They had some kind of medley Taylor 323 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: and UH and Nikki performed together. It's almost as if 324 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: everyone in pop music is an opportunist and they will 325 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: shift wilts at the drop of a hat. I'm just 326 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: saying maybe that's the case. I don't know, I'm not 327 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 1: Some people might say that. But there were other little 328 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: things that went down that summer. I guess when Taylor 329 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: was on tour and she performed Bad Blood, they had 330 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 1: one of her dancers dressed as a shark, which was 331 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: obviously after Katie Perry's famous left shark dancer Spawl, which 332 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: is grow oh it's so good, and then why why why? 333 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 1: But wait, Katie, what's the point of that summer? Maybe 334 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: it was that fall Katie announced that she was releasing 335 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: a perfume called mad Love, a lyric of course from 336 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: Bad Blood. Um. But then it really all kind of 337 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: boiled over again in the summer when Taylor and Calvin 338 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: Harris were breaking up, and in the midst of their 339 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: breakup it got kind of messy. Calvin Harrison had written 340 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: and produced a song for Rihanna is uh, this is 341 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: what you came for, and it became known that Taylor 342 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 1: had co written it under the name I can't even 343 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: say it Nils Joe Bird. It's yeah, like it's like 344 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 1: Calvin Harrison, the Swedish chef, teamed up to do this 345 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:24,159 Speaker 1: song for Rihanna. But but Calvin thought that Taylor's side 346 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: maliciously leaked this information and he started tweeting all this stuff, 347 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: which he then deleted. Um, he found it hurtful to 348 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 1: me at this point that Taylor and her team would 349 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: go so far, you know, making him look bad. And 350 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: then um, he said, I know you're off tour and 351 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: you need someone new to try and bully like Katie 352 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: et cetera. But I'm not that guy. Sorry, I won't 353 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: allow it. And uh, Katie just responded with a jeff 354 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: of Hillary Clinton shrugging, which is great, and then she 355 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: also retweeted her own tweet from May that said time 356 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: the ultimate truth teller. See, I'm just picturing Katie Perry 357 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,120 Speaker 1: sitting in her house and like l a and just 358 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,399 Speaker 1: like having gifts, candy all around her, kenye all around her, 359 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,120 Speaker 1: just having gifts like locked and loaded, ready to go 360 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 1: get drafted. It's like, Okay, I know some bullshit's gonna 361 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: arise with Taylor Swift at some point, but like she 362 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 1: had like a hundred gifts that she was like market 363 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: testing with her friends, like, you know, should I do 364 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: the Hilly Clinton? Like what you do? Like shrug? Yeah, 365 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: it was like it was Hillary I want to debate shrugging. 366 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:25,399 Speaker 1: I think I should I do a Hilly Clinton gift? 367 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: Should I do? You know Michael Jackson eating popcorn on 368 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 1: the front? That's a classic, right And they said no, no, no, 369 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: definitely the Hillary Clinton shrugging. That is the way to go. So, 370 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: I mean, was that it or it kept going? I 371 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: mean and later for for Katie's birthday that fall, she 372 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: went to a Kanye West show and uh instagram live 373 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:50,439 Speaker 1: her singing along to uh to famous verse, Uh you 374 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: know I made that bitch famous. She she's get on 375 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 1: her own face when Kanye on the stage is singing that. 376 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:57,679 Speaker 1: She's dancing along to it all happy. I don't remember 377 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: that part. Now that this gets, this gets really seems 378 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: a little. The other things are kind of funny. Now 379 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 1: we're getting like definitely that video, Yeah, that that was 380 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: wrong on every level. Poke in the bear Man and 381 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 1: then also, I guess a fan tweeted at her and said, 382 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: will you collaborate with Taylor Swift? And she said if 383 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: she says sorry, sure for a while. This is like 384 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: pretty one sided. I feel like Taylor Swift, Well, she 385 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: did the video from reputation, Look what you made Me do? Yes? 386 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: No that I have a lot to say about that. 387 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,879 Speaker 1: But before that was Katie's album Witness came out and 388 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: May Swish Wish Yes, I mean basically a major talking 389 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: point of her entire you know, press cycle for for 390 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: Witness was just talking about this feud. I mean, she 391 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 1: was did an interview with Entertainment Weekly the may that 392 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,679 Speaker 1: it came out. You can't mistake kindness for weakness, and 393 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: don't come for me anyone, anyone, anyone, anyone. And that's 394 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: not to any one person, And don't quote me that 395 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,440 Speaker 1: it is because it's not. It's not about that. Honestly, 396 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 1: when women come together and they decided to unite, this 397 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 1: world is going to be a better place, period, end 398 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:00,400 Speaker 1: of story. But let me say this, every thing has 399 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 1: a reaction or a consequence, So don't forget about that, okay, honey, 400 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 1: Which is kind of terrifying. Then she drops Swish Swish, 401 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: which has the you know, don't come at me mantra 402 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 1: all through it. Uh, it's clearly directed at all of 403 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 1: her haters, seemingly obviously at Taylor. Don't you come for me? No, 404 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,880 Speaker 1: not today, You're calculated. I've got your number because you're 405 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 1: a joke and I'm a courtside killer queen, which is 406 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: which is like I'm looking at hello, cool ja line. 407 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: That's a great and uh, you know, and then of 408 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,360 Speaker 1: course there was a come apt me with what like 409 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: what a music video? So then you know, in case 410 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: there was you know, any missing understanding about who this 411 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:48,880 Speaker 1: was about. Uh, Nicki Minaj, Taylor's one time foe did 412 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 1: a guest verse on it, and um. The artwork for 413 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: the single features a Katie's hand clutching receipt for Karma 414 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:02,199 Speaker 1: Coffee and tea. So this this opens the floodgates. She 415 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: goes on James Cordon. James asks if there's you know 416 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 1: what the deal is between Katie and Taylor, and she says, honestly, 417 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: you know, it's true. There is a situation. Uh, she 418 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 1: started it and it's time for her to finish it. 419 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 1: Almost her exact words again demanding an apology, and then 420 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 1: uh in Enemy she said, I'm not Buddha. Things irritate me, 421 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 1: which is pretty amazed. I think she's right and she 422 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: is not Buddha. Is a great argument there. You're not 423 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 1: gonna you can't disprove that one. The whole press cycle 424 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,400 Speaker 1: for that it got really she opened up a lot, 425 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: which on one hand, you know, I applaud I mean 426 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 1: she did that like I think it was a forty 427 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: eight hour of uh YouTube live stream thing where she 428 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,880 Speaker 1: was like ranking like the boyfriends that she's had, like sexually. 429 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:52,360 Speaker 1: I think that was part of think that was part 430 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: of it. Yeah. Yeah, and that press cycle one of 431 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 1: the great press cycles of the two thousand tens for 432 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: for that album is kind of a disaster. What is 433 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,199 Speaker 1: didn't I mean, just the stats beared out didn't do well. 434 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 1: It was her only album that didn't go past She 435 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: did that like weird SNL and appearance with like that 436 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:13,159 Speaker 1: kid like Flossy flossing that. Yeah, and uh, it just 437 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: seemed like I'm just gonna throw everything against the wall 438 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: to try to go viral with this album. I'm gonna 439 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: get YouTube stars in here, I'm gonna be you know, 440 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 1: I'm doing the forty eight hour like a live feed thing. 441 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: I'm just grasping at straws at this point. And the 442 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 1: forty eight hour feed thing was when she give an 443 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 1: interview with Ariana Huffington and she basically said, you know, 444 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: I I forget her exact words, but something like, I 445 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: actually know here they are. I love her and I 446 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: want the best for her, she said. Swift, Yes, Katie 447 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: said that about Taylor Swift. Taylor, after all the press 448 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: in this album cycle responded by the day that Witness 449 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: was due to be released. Uh, she put all of 450 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 1: her songs back on Spotify, which and she famously took 451 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 1: them off a few years before View too, you know, 452 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:01,120 Speaker 1: disagreement about Spotify's payment practices, classic ups staging move, yes, 453 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: which was pretty great. I mean that's that. That is 454 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: a if you host a podcast about music rivalries, gift 455 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: from Heaven. Oh yeah, that kind of pettiness. You know, 456 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 1: you can't you can't hope for more than that. If 457 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 1: you're just a decent human being, you might go, I 458 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 1: don't know about that tailor your karma receipt with the 459 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:23,680 Speaker 1: what was it with the coffee and the one that 460 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 1: was coffee and tea, Karma coffee and tea? Was that 461 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: a receipt? Man? It just went up with that move, Taylor. Uh. 462 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 1: And then she puts up the video what You Made 463 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:37,400 Speaker 1: Me Do? Sent swift ease into you know, beautiful mind 464 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: style searching through it for Easter eggs. Now, something I 465 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:42,719 Speaker 1: should have mentioned earlier. When the Rolling Stone interview hit, 466 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: the tailor sort of first hinted out there being something 467 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: off between between her and Katie. Uh. The day that 468 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 1: I hit, Katie tweeted, be aware of Regina George in 469 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 1: sheep's clothes and Regina George being the antagonist the bully 470 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: in uh in Mean Girls? Is that Rachel McAdam. Yeah, 471 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:06,640 Speaker 1: brilliant portrayal. Oh incredible. Um, Rachel McAdams doesn't love Rachel 472 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: McAdams in that movie. Oh yeah, I mean incredible, amazing 473 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:15,160 Speaker 1: in every movie. So Taylor, in the fall of after 474 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: all the witness dust has settled, puts out look what 475 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,119 Speaker 1: you Made Me Do? The um the beat to it. 476 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 1: Fans have observed, I can't confirm whether or not this 477 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 1: is actually true. Uh sounds remarkably like it may actually 478 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: be sample. I think it just sounds like, Uh. The 479 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 1: Peaches song Operate, which is featured in Mean Girls in 480 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,680 Speaker 1: the scene when Regina George played by Rachel McAdams is 481 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 1: getting dressed for Halloween and so that beat that is, 482 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: you know, one of the main Regina George scenes in 483 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 1: Mean Girls is the you know, backing beat to Taylor's 484 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 1: revenge song that would You Made Me Do? I love 485 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: this because I think it's acknowledged by most people that 486 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 1: that is like one of the worst Taylor Swift singles 487 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: of all time, and like it kind of screwed that 488 00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: album over because people were so turned off by that. 489 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 1: But I love the Taylor Swift said, you know what, 490 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 1: I don't care. I'm still gonna like reference this song 491 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,440 Speaker 1: from a movie that my arch rival referenced in a 492 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 1: It was a tweet because that is more important to 493 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 1: me than putting out a single that would actually set 494 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: up my album in a better way. And of course, 495 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: you know, Mean Girls had the burn Book in it. 496 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:21,159 Speaker 1: And then there's the lyric I got a list of 497 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: names and juice isn't read underlined. I mean it's I mean, 498 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,120 Speaker 1: I mean fans, I should I should you know, reiterate 499 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 1: that these are all things that fans have been saying. 500 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 1: I I have no I'm just I'm just asking questions. 501 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,680 Speaker 1: I'm just it's all true. All the fans are right. 502 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: But and then of course, you know, walked me out 503 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:37,920 Speaker 1: and threw a feast is another line which and Katie 504 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 1: had a song on Witness Bon Appetite. Thought to me 505 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 1: that the feast was in reference to that. I love 506 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: the steep announcis. Oh no, there's I mean, there's so 507 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,679 Speaker 1: many her fans are incredible with all that. I mean, 508 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:48,400 Speaker 1: you know, Taylor talks about that all the time about 509 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: her fans have these incredible theories. That makes all the 510 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,200 Speaker 1: Paul's Dead stuff look like, you know, boring compared to this. 511 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:56,400 Speaker 1: And then so the video for Look What You Made 512 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 1: Me Do features Taylor dressed remarkably lie Katie. I can't 513 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,120 Speaker 1: say she's dressed as Katy. It looks remarkably like Katie's 514 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: worried that like you're gonna get sued if you because 515 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 1: like like the Taylor Swift lawyers or the Katie Perry 516 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: lawyers are gonna descend I have to couch our language. Allegedly, 517 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 1: she's extremely petty in this video. I work for People magazine. 518 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: This is this is part of my this has been 519 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: grained into me. Some might say that she was insane, 520 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: you know, but we're not saying it's some might she 521 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: was off for saying. But in the video, Taylor's dressed 522 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,719 Speaker 1: looking remarkably like Katie at that time, the short blonde hair, 523 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,119 Speaker 1: and she's in a car crash, which seems to be 524 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 1: a reference to uh, Witness being a car crashing album 525 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 1: while Taylor is having her own car crash. Because again 526 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: this is like, I mean, I actually like Reputation, but like, 527 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 1: I think it's at least a flawed I'm not gonna 528 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 1: say masterpiece, but it's a flawed sort of polarizing record, right. 529 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 1: And when this gets back to what I was saying 530 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,159 Speaker 1: in the beginning the episode, where I think, you know, 531 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: Witness and Reputation both released in twenty seven teen, but 532 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,680 Speaker 1: they both take on these characters of sort of you 533 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 1: know villains and tough talking villains, which is not my 534 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: interpretation who they are. And I think that it confused people. 535 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:12,400 Speaker 1: I don't think people were looking for that. I won't 536 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,199 Speaker 1: say that people didn't like that, but I don't think 537 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 1: people were looking for that. And I think that it 538 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 1: was inspired by one another. And I think for you 539 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 1: know that year, a lot of what they did was 540 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,919 Speaker 1: related to that back and forth, and and and they 541 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: leaned further into those characters. We're going to take a 542 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 1: quick break to get a word from our sponsor before 543 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: we get two more rivals. That's kind of the beginning 544 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: of the end of this theory, right, you know, my 545 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: reputation outsold witnessed by a huge magnitude. Well, and that 546 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,160 Speaker 1: relates to another theory I have about this feud, because 547 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: I'll share in a minute, But like, I think we 548 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: should just say wrap up the feud. How did you? 549 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: Because it got resolved in teen May. She kicks off. 550 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 1: Taylor kicks off her reputation Asian tour, and she receives 551 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: a literal olive branch from Katie Perry, which has a note. 552 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 1: Taylor Instagram story this and you can read a little 553 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 1: bit of a note says hey, old friend, I've been 554 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,919 Speaker 1: doing some reflecting on past miss communications and the feelings 555 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: between us. I really want to clear the air. Dot 556 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 1: dot dot And you can't read the rest. And and 557 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 1: Taylor was apparently really really happy by this. Apparently Katie's 558 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:25,880 Speaker 1: team I saw some interview in the Sun I think 559 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: where Katie's team was kind of annoyed that that she 560 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: instagram story this because allegedly they felt that it made 561 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: her look like she was taking responsibility for the feud, 562 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 1: and because Katie Perry's in the media saying no Taylor 563 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: Swift test to apologize to me and the banning apologies 564 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: for years, and yet she's the new Caves exactly. I 565 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 1: mean that that's what it crawls back to Taylor, but 566 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: it did. It went on effectively ended the feud. And 567 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 1: then in in this spring, uh, Katie's asked on all 568 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: these red carpets about whether or not they collaborate again. 569 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 1: She said, yeah, you know, things are getting better between us, 570 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 1: cookies or something right, And then in June, um, I 571 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 1: think Katie tweeted a picture of cookies that said piece 572 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: at Last on it and added Taylor Swift on it, 573 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 1: and then Taylor wrote a comment with thirteen heart emojs. 574 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: You know Taylor's big numbers, thirteen beautiful. And then within 575 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: days they had the Taylor's you need to Calm Down 576 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 1: video where the big reveal at the end. You know 577 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: it's a whole song about you know, preaching tolerance and unity. 578 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: Wait a second, so like they just randomly tweeted this 579 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: photo of cookies, and then a few days later, there's 580 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 1: like a promo for a video, No, not a promo 581 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,959 Speaker 1: v video. Wow, So what a coincidence? Like it's Tims 582 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: really well yeah, you know, okay, so this ties into 583 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: my theory here, and this is an extremely cynical take. 584 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: What if this is all bullshit? Maybe the fact that 585 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: they now have reconciled is related to the fact that 586 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: Katie Perry, well, all due respect to the legacy of 587 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: Katie Perry, is not quite the pop star that she 588 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: was when this feud was really at its red hot 589 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: most fury, like in the early two thousand tents, and 590 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: that maybe it's more advantageous for Taylor Swift to say, 591 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 1: reignite a feud with Kanye West, who is still a 592 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: very famous celebrity. Do you think at all that this 593 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: just might be a trumped up thing and that they 594 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: really didn't ever have like a serious conflict. I I mean, 595 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 1: I don't. This is the extremely cynical cynical here, you know. 596 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,239 Speaker 1: And I'm not even like I'm not attacking them by 597 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: saying this. I'm saying they're savvy. If it was an experiment, 598 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: and if this was a you know, all trumped up 599 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: to go in, you know, to take a left turn 600 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: musically and creatively. Then I think you could argue that 601 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: it was a failed experiment because I think that, you know, 602 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: I mean, Witness was I think Katie's first album that 603 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: didn't go platinum and reputation, although a blockbuster and sold 604 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 1: a lot relatively speaking, didn't sell the same amount as 605 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 1: nine and all the ones before that. And I think, 606 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of their views. I'm reading for Lover, 607 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 1: which is you know, her her latest album, great album. 608 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: A lot of people are saying it is, you know, 609 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 1: a return to form. And I think some of Katie's 610 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 1: recent music too, if he has that new song never 611 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,080 Speaker 1: Really Over, which seems a lot more like for is 612 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: an era, maybe not a teenage dream era, but that 613 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 1: it seems like, Okay, we went down this dark path 614 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: um and now we're back. This is what I'm saying though, 615 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 1: because they abandoned that because it didn't work. So now 616 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: we're gonna we're gonna go back to be nice you know, 617 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 1: pop stars, and we're not gonna have conflict anymore, because 618 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: that seems to be what people want. I'm telling you, man, 619 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: question it is a this is Me. I'm like that, 620 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: you know, if we're gonna do memes, you know, Like, 621 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: I'm like that dude from It's Always Sunny, String The String, 622 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: I'm like that guy right now. Now I got tinfoil 623 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: hat on, don't worry. Okay. So let's say you're going 624 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: to make an argument in favor of Katy Perry. You're 625 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 1: on the Katie Cats side against Taylor Swift. Like, what 626 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: would be the pro Katie Perry argument? I mean, really, 627 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 1: the first thing I would think of is is Teenage Dream. 628 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: I mean that album it is is aside from Michael 629 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 1: Jackson's Bad, is the only album that has five number 630 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 1: one singles on Its really incredible, especially for you know, 631 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: I mean that that's an amazing achievement and that album. 632 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 1: Maybe it's personal. Maybe I just it came out the 633 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 1: year after I graduated college, and uh, you know, like 634 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 1: any good millennial graduated in the recession knowing any jobs. 635 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: So we all moved back home and we're all living 636 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 1: with their parents. A bunch of me and my friends 637 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 1: were living in the same house that we were in 638 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 1: five years before in high school. That song came out 639 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 1: thinking about being teenagers. But we weren't teenagers, were early twenties, 640 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: but no jobs. Yeah, this is a dark context. I 641 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 1: feel like if if wonder if the wonder Use TV 642 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 1: show We're made you know for the for instead of 643 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 1: were made in two thousand ten for two thousand and ten, 644 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: I think that this song would be included in it. 645 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 1: I think that there's a lot of emotion in that 646 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 1: song wrapped up at least like me would be like 647 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: the ironic soundtrack of like Millennials, like contemplating crushing debt 648 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 1: and the like collapsing environment. It's like like the Last 649 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 1: Friday and and it's like, you know, like you're showing 650 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: you like looking at your bills. Well, like this really 651 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: happy pop music. The title track, I mean, teenage Dream. 652 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 1: I mean to me, it was just like instant nostalgia 653 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 1: for like, you know, teenage years that were not that 654 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,959 Speaker 1: far earlier but felt so far removed. And I mean 655 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 1: I that that song hit me. That song, you know 656 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: hit me personally. I don't want to speak for for 657 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 1: you know, anyone else, but I I love that that album, 658 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 1: you know, unabashedly it's one of my favorite albums of 659 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 1: all time. I think it's an incredible pop album. It's 660 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 1: a great record, And that would be my argument for 661 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 1: her too, is that I feel like there was a 662 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 1: period of time where she was sort of the most 663 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 1: fun pop star. So I agree. I think her legacy 664 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: is that record, and it kind of cements her in 665 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: pop history. Whenever people talk about pop music from that era, 666 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 1: just kind of signifies that record. And it would be 667 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 1: the ironic soundtrack of two thousand ten, which, uh, you know, 668 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 1: it was kind of a dark year. You know, you 669 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 1: have the tea party starting to emerge at that time, 670 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: and you have the economy is coming back, but it's 671 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 1: still kind of sluggish, and yet we're all listening to 672 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 1: this infectious pop record. Um, if you're gonna make the 673 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 1: pro Taylor Swift case, what would be the crux of 674 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 1: that case? I mean I started looking up for her, 675 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: you know, record achievements and stuff, and I just got 676 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 1: bored and just I mean it's just just so many. 677 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: I mean, it's you know, I I don't think that 678 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 1: you've had a female pop star who has taken such 679 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 1: incredible ownership of her career and her art and her 680 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,799 Speaker 1: image at that high level for that sustained period. I mean, 681 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:20,719 Speaker 1: you had, you know, Gaga did it for a while, 682 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:22,279 Speaker 1: I think, and then I started drop off a bit. 683 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: I think, you know, Taylor could say, Beyonce and Madonna 684 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 1: I think are the ones I can think of that 685 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 1: that did it for that long that well. I remember 686 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 1: during the reputation era, you started seeing think pieces being 687 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 1: written about Taylor Swift being on her way out because 688 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:41,279 Speaker 1: there was this generation of sort of Internet native pop 689 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: stars talk stars, yeah, or you know, even like like 690 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,360 Speaker 1: little NASAs someone like that who's like not part of 691 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 1: the sort of pop machinery, who didn't come up through 692 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: the ranks the way that someone like Taylor Swift did, 693 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 1: who kind of comes out of nowhere and has this 694 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 1: humongous song that is on the charts forever. Um, there 695 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 1: was this idea, I think that Taylor Swift was kind 696 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 1: of like a passe type pop star and now we're 697 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 1: going to have Internet native pop stars that we're gonna 698 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 1: take over, and which is not to say that that's 699 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 1: not happening, but it is I think still true that 700 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 1: Taylor Swift is like a dominant pop star and has 701 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: been for you know, going on almost fifteen years at 702 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 1: this point. So the case for hers that she is 703 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,400 Speaker 1: like one of the great all time pop stars. And 704 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 1: in a way, Katy Perry was sort of like a 705 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 1: bug that bounced off her windshield for like a couple 706 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 1: of years. That sounds worse than I mean it to say, 707 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: that's not We're all bugs off of windshields. Compared to 708 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,840 Speaker 1: Taylor Swift, Okay, she's a She's like a multinational corporation 709 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 1: at this point as a as a as a pop star. 710 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I think about Taylor. I think it's so 711 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 1: interesting too, is the connection that she she has built 712 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: with her fan base. I mean, her Lover Special Edition 713 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,239 Speaker 1: version like literally has pages from her diary. I mean, 714 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: I feel like the connection that she makes with them, 715 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,360 Speaker 1: and really I just totally normal by the way. Well, no, 716 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 1: I feel like I feel like I don't know what 717 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: Katie Perry is. I know, for all of her songs 718 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,320 Speaker 1: that are introspective and and try to present that that 719 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,839 Speaker 1: kind of more, you know, inward looking side of her, 720 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,320 Speaker 1: I feel like I don't really know her in the 721 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 1: same way. Well, I think with Taylor Swift, she's presenting 722 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,360 Speaker 1: a version of herself even in those diary pages. I mean, 723 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 1: Katy Perry did again put herself on camera for like 724 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,279 Speaker 1: forty eight hours, which I think my mind blowing thing. 725 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:21,799 Speaker 1: I mean I should feel like I know her so well, 726 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:23,799 Speaker 1: but I for some reason I don't. I mean, granted, yes, 727 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 1: you're right. I mean whatever Taylor's present think could totally 728 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,840 Speaker 1: be skewed as you know, a fiction, but I was 729 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:31,880 Speaker 1: not even a fiction. It's just like a it's a 730 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,239 Speaker 1: version of herself. I would never I mean, I think 731 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,320 Speaker 1: with all these people, you can ever presume to know 732 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,439 Speaker 1: who they really are. I mean, there's always some sort 733 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,719 Speaker 1: of subterfuge going on which there should be got to 734 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 1: protect some part of yourself from public consumption. I would 735 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: hope in terms of like just them being together, I 736 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 1: guess what is the case for them sort of coexisting 737 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,560 Speaker 1: peacefully in the world. I mean the easy answer is 738 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:54,359 Speaker 1: good lord, I mean, we don't need to pay more 739 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,759 Speaker 1: women against each other. That's kind of the the my 740 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: go to answer for that. Um, you know, at this point, 741 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,880 Speaker 1: I feel like Katy Perry has her lane. I always 742 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,440 Speaker 1: love her big hits, but like Taylor Swift is like 743 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,239 Speaker 1: in another league in terms of stardom, in terms of 744 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,840 Speaker 1: her career, Like she doesn't need to be, you know, 745 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 1: driving the dump truck over like the small car, you 746 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:17,759 Speaker 1: know what I mean. I mean, because she really is 747 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,360 Speaker 1: like so much. She's such an imperial I mean, Kanye 748 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,000 Speaker 1: West is. I think people talk about that rivalry still 749 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 1: because he is comparable to her in terms of celebrity, 750 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,240 Speaker 1: not in terms of his chart success artistry and artistry 751 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 1: of course. I mean we're setting artistry aside here for 752 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:34,879 Speaker 1: a second, because well, I'm just saying that in terms 753 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,360 Speaker 1: of like these sorts of discussions, like the kind of 754 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 1: records you put out. I don't know how much that 755 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 1: really played. I'm talking about like their celebrity anyway. I 756 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,400 Speaker 1: think that's why people still remember that. So to me, 757 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: this just kind of lives on as like a colorful 758 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,320 Speaker 1: chapter in both of their careers that was ultimately harmless. 759 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:52,800 Speaker 1: As much as they dug in after each other, it 760 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 1: didn't seem like they were ever really like over the 761 00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 1: top or like crossing the line in a way that 762 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,279 Speaker 1: you could say about the Kanye West or Swift. Oh yeah, 763 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,800 Speaker 1: that seemed to be crossing the line blood um and 764 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,320 Speaker 1: like the Kim Kardashian voicemails and all that stuff. But 765 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,320 Speaker 1: we can save that for another episode, because that is 766 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,920 Speaker 1: another rich chapter. The rich vein of hate in the 767 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 1: history of music. Rivalries. Jordan's always a pleasure rivalries, and 768 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 1: it's always pleasure talking all of you at home listening, 769 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 1: or at the gym or wherever you might be, or 770 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,479 Speaker 1: in your car or on the subway at the store 771 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 1: with your karma and coffee and tea received looking to 772 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,399 Speaker 1: take some karma back to the store. Um, thanks again 773 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,359 Speaker 1: for listening. We will talk to you all next week. 774 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:48,880 Speaker 1: Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. The executive 775 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 1: producers are Shawn Titone and Noel Brown. The supervising producers 776 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 1: are Taylor T. Cooin and Tristan McNeil. I'm Jordan's roun 777 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,279 Speaker 1: Talk and I'm Stephen Hyden. If you like what you heard, 778 00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 1: please subscribe and leave us a review from more podcast 779 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:03,240 Speaker 1: from Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, 780 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 1: or ever you listen to your favorite shows. H