WEBVTT - Why Getting a Religious Exemption for the Vaccine May Be Difficult

0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:03.880
<v Speaker 1>It's Monday, October four. I'm Oscar Emiras from the Daily

0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:07.160
<v Speaker 1>Dive podcast in Los Angeles, and this is reopening America.

0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:11.040
<v Speaker 1>As the deadline for many vaccination mandates are coming soon,

0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:15.280
<v Speaker 1>many still resisting their shots are looking for exemptions. Religious

0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:17.480
<v Speaker 1>exemptions are one way that people are seeking to get

0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:19.440
<v Speaker 1>out of the mandates, but they may not be as

0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:21.960
<v Speaker 1>easy to get as some may think. Employers have a

0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:25.160
<v Speaker 1>lot of discretion when granting these. Employers have to provide

0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:28.240
<v Speaker 1>a reasonable accommodation, but they can also probe whether a

0:00:28.360 --> 0:00:31.280
<v Speaker 1>person's beliefs are sincere and deny it if they think

0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:35.879
<v Speaker 1>they're not. Andrea Shoe, Labor and Workplace correspondent at NPR,

0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:39.440
<v Speaker 1>joins us for more. Thanks for joining us, Andrea, thanks

0:00:39.440 --> 0:00:42.000
<v Speaker 1>so much for having me. Well, we're seeing a lot

0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:45.680
<v Speaker 1>more mandates of vaccines coming through, you know, we're seeing

0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:49.879
<v Speaker 1>these in in certain cities. Employers are starting to mandate

0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:53.960
<v Speaker 1>their employees to get the COVID nineteen vaccines, and sometimes

0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:57.000
<v Speaker 1>they're not offering the alternative of maybe getting a weekly

0:00:57.040 --> 0:00:59.920
<v Speaker 1>test or something. A lot of workers are not happy

0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:03.080
<v Speaker 1>about this, and they're pushing back. One of the things

0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:04.600
<v Speaker 1>that a lot of people are trying to do is

0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:08.760
<v Speaker 1>get a real religious exemption to the vaccine mandate. But

0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:11.000
<v Speaker 1>there's all sorts of rules in place with this. The

0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:15.880
<v Speaker 1>employers have a pretty um wide latitude with what they

0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:18.680
<v Speaker 1>can approve and how they can accommodate. So, Andrew, you

0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:21.080
<v Speaker 1>wrote a piece about this really interesting stuff. So help

0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:23.560
<v Speaker 1>us walk through some of this. What are the obligations

0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:25.679
<v Speaker 1>employers have when people say I want to get a

0:01:25.720 --> 0:01:29.920
<v Speaker 1>religious exemption? Right? Right? So the right to request of

0:01:29.959 --> 0:01:33.479
<v Speaker 1>religious exemption comes from Title seven of the Civil Rights Act,

0:01:33.800 --> 0:01:36.080
<v Speaker 1>and you know that is the law that protects workers

0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:39.160
<v Speaker 1>from discrimination on the basis of you know, many things,

0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:42.440
<v Speaker 1>including religion is one of them. So the federal government

0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:45.880
<v Speaker 1>says that, you know, employers have to provide reasonable accommodations

0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:50.120
<v Speaker 1>for the workers who have sincerely held religious beliefs unless

0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:52.640
<v Speaker 1>and there's a really big unless here, unless doing so

0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:56.400
<v Speaker 1>poses an undoe hardship to the company. And so that's

0:01:56.520 --> 0:01:58.960
<v Speaker 1>you know, it's a question like what is an undue hardship.

0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:02.080
<v Speaker 1>That's something that I've been a sploring. Actually, yeah, And

0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:04.480
<v Speaker 1>because you know, if you have to change the whole

0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:08.120
<v Speaker 1>business model or workflow or something, you know, that's an

0:02:08.120 --> 0:02:10.919
<v Speaker 1>easy way to say no at that at that point,

0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:14.400
<v Speaker 1>So when it comes to these reasonable accommodations, you know

0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:17.880
<v Speaker 1>what does that mean? You know what can on what

0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:20.679
<v Speaker 1>basis can they start refusing? Right, so that what the

0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:23.600
<v Speaker 1>law says for religious exemption cases, the undue hardship, it

0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:26.240
<v Speaker 1>doesn't like it doesn't have to be you rearranging your

0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:29.480
<v Speaker 1>whole company. The actual language uses the word diminimus, which

0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:32.840
<v Speaker 1>kind of means minimal. So how undue hardship is defined

0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:37.240
<v Speaker 1>is more than a diminimus cost or burden on the

0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:39.840
<v Speaker 1>operation of the employer's business. So think about it, more

0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:43.480
<v Speaker 1>than a minimal cost. It's a pretty low bar. And

0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:45.720
<v Speaker 1>you know, lawyers I spoke to you gave me examples

0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:50.679
<v Speaker 1>like if somebody's religious beliefs requires them to not work

0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:54.160
<v Speaker 1>on Saturdays and as a result, the company has to

0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:57.400
<v Speaker 1>rearrange a bunch of people's shifts, that could be considered

0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:00.600
<v Speaker 1>an undue hardship and they could deny that person accommodation

0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:03.919
<v Speaker 1>of not working on Saturdays. So there's I mean, there's

0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:07.240
<v Speaker 1>a lot of power obviously on the employer side of things.

0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:09.720
<v Speaker 1>I do want to get into the fact of you know,

0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:13.919
<v Speaker 1>employers can ask you about your religious beliefs, they can

0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:18.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, see if those religious beliefs are sincere. And

0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:20.240
<v Speaker 1>this is where it gets really interesting because you know,

0:03:20.280 --> 0:03:22.800
<v Speaker 1>we're seeing obviously there's a lot of misinformation that's all

0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:25.080
<v Speaker 1>found on the internet. You know, a lot of people

0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:29.160
<v Speaker 1>are saying that they have objections to vaccines that use

0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:32.200
<v Speaker 1>fetal cells in research, testing or production. They don't want

0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:34.280
<v Speaker 1>to be putting that stuff in their bodies. And this

0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:37.000
<v Speaker 1>is where it gets very technical with the COVID nineteen

0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:40.480
<v Speaker 1>vaccines at least, yes, right, so that is a common

0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:43.480
<v Speaker 1>reason that people are citing that they say, you know,

0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:47.680
<v Speaker 1>vaccines are made using fetal cells. What public health officials

0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:50.720
<v Speaker 1>have made clear is that the COVID nineteen vaccines, I'll

0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:54.320
<v Speaker 1>start with Fiser and Maderna, they were used in the

0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:58.400
<v Speaker 1>development and testing of those vaccines. It was fetal cell

0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:01.760
<v Speaker 1>lines that were developed decades go in a laboratory and

0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:05.160
<v Speaker 1>this is a common practice in pharmaceutical research. And then

0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:07.000
<v Speaker 1>for the J and J vaccines a little bit different,

0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:09.760
<v Speaker 1>different fetal cell lines were being used the production of

0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:12.080
<v Speaker 1>the J and J vaccine. But to be clear, none

0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:16.240
<v Speaker 1>of these COVID vaccines contain any fetal cells. And that

0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:19.920
<v Speaker 1>is misinformation that is out there. But um, you know

0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:21.800
<v Speaker 1>one of the CEOs. I spoke to a THEO of

0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:25.920
<v Speaker 1>a hospital in Arkansas. It's Conway Regional Medical Center. Matt

0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:29.040
<v Speaker 1>Troupe is CEO, and you know, he had about forty

0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:32.920
<v Speaker 1>five requests for religious exemptions out of eight hundred employees,

0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:35.440
<v Speaker 1>about five percent. They were all based on the fetal

0:04:35.480 --> 0:04:40.000
<v Speaker 1>cell issue. He wanted to educate his workforce about this issue,

0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:43.320
<v Speaker 1>so he had his staff compiled this list of medicines

0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:46.279
<v Speaker 1>that have also used feel cells. This is really search

0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:49.080
<v Speaker 1>and development. Yeah, this is really great and shows how

0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:52.000
<v Speaker 1>much you know everyday products might be doing this. And

0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:54.359
<v Speaker 1>if you're trying to claim an exemption just for this

0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:57.280
<v Speaker 1>vaccine and you you know, you use any of these

0:04:57.320 --> 0:05:00.120
<v Speaker 1>other products, you really have no standing. It seems like, uh,

0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:04.560
<v Speaker 1>but continue, But that's exactly what he said that He said,

0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:07.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, if you use these products, if you're asking

0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:09.800
<v Speaker 1>for a religious exemption, I want you to attest to

0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:13.560
<v Speaker 1>you not using these products in the future or you know,

0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:17.479
<v Speaker 1>now their products like thailan al I view Profen Tom's

0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:23.040
<v Speaker 1>I think x lax is on the list. Clareton Paptobismo, right,

0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:25.440
<v Speaker 1>and he said, you know, people need to know that

0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:27.440
<v Speaker 1>if they're going to be consistent in their beliefs. You know,

0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:29.919
<v Speaker 1>this applies to a lot of different things. But she

0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:34.080
<v Speaker 1>also mentioned employers can probe their employees on their you know,

0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:36.679
<v Speaker 1>whether their belief is sincerely held. I've also heard people

0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:40.680
<v Speaker 1>employers say they ask, do you have children in public school?

0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:44.680
<v Speaker 1>Are they vaccinated? Because most places do have a vaccine

0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:48.280
<v Speaker 1>requirement for public school? Do you attend church? You know,

0:05:48.279 --> 0:05:51.240
<v Speaker 1>there are all kinds of questions that the employers can ask,

0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:55.359
<v Speaker 1>and I think generally, up until now, most employers took

0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:57.719
<v Speaker 1>employees at their word. If they say I haven't sincerely

0:05:57.720 --> 0:06:00.240
<v Speaker 1>held belief, they would sort of move on to the

0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:02.680
<v Speaker 1>next phase of trying to figure out if there was

0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:06.360
<v Speaker 1>a reasonable accommodation. But I think with the COVID nineteen vaccine,

0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:10.640
<v Speaker 1>a lot more employers are scrutinizing the beliefs that are

0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:14.080
<v Speaker 1>being put forth. Anyway, Yeah, definitely, And in that hospital system,

0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:17.560
<v Speaker 1>I guess that they have their workforce is vaccinated, so

0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:20.520
<v Speaker 1>you know, they're saying, maybe we can do weekly testing

0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:24.080
<v Speaker 1>to help out or something. But but I mean having

0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:26.200
<v Speaker 1>them attest to that kind of questionnaire and do you

0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:28.280
<v Speaker 1>use all this other stuff. Definitely a way to kind

0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:30.839
<v Speaker 1>of weed out those that are just doing this because

0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:33.680
<v Speaker 1>they're trying to be defiant about that whole thing. And

0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:35.760
<v Speaker 1>we're seeing, you know a lot of this stuff coming

0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:38.760
<v Speaker 1>down the pipeline right now. United Airlines is going to

0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:42.240
<v Speaker 1>be firing a lot of people. There's law enforcement agencies

0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:45.400
<v Speaker 1>across the country, a ton of them, you know, have uh,

0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:48.240
<v Speaker 1>you know, try to get realistic religious exemptions, and these

0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:51.960
<v Speaker 1>deadlines are coming to be vaccinated, and there's a potential

0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:55.320
<v Speaker 1>that a lot of people can start losing jobs pretty quickly. Yeah.

0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:58.159
<v Speaker 1>I should note that hospital in Arkansas they did actually

0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:00.640
<v Speaker 1>grant everybody who asked for one of religio this exemption,

0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:03.080
<v Speaker 1>and like you said, they're gonna do testing. The CEO

0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:05.520
<v Speaker 1>really said, this is this is really all about education,

0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:07.680
<v Speaker 1>but you know, we want to be respectful of people's

0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:11.320
<v Speaker 1>religious beliefs. United Airlines, which you mentions, is interesting, they

0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:15.160
<v Speaker 1>did announce that they are starting the termination process. Those

0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:17.760
<v Speaker 1>people did not actually apply for exemptions, They did not

0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:21.240
<v Speaker 1>get the shots, did not apply for exemptions separately. I

0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:25.600
<v Speaker 1>think it's roughly two thousand people applied for exemptions and

0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:28.440
<v Speaker 1>United is still trying to figure that out right now,

0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:32.000
<v Speaker 1>some employees did sue United, saying, you know, because those

0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:36.080
<v Speaker 1>people who applied for religious exemptions and I think medical

0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:38.760
<v Speaker 1>exemptions as well, United told them we're going to put

0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:42.280
<v Speaker 1>you on unpaidly for an indefinite period of time, and

0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:46.360
<v Speaker 1>some employees have suited saying that's not a reasonable accommodation. Now,

0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:50.280
<v Speaker 1>in the past, courts have upheld unpaid leave as a

0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:53.480
<v Speaker 1>reasonable acommodation. They said, yes, this is something employers can offer,

0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:57.280
<v Speaker 1>as you know, it is reasonable. So I'm not sure

0:07:57.280 --> 0:07:59.240
<v Speaker 1>where that's going to end up. But for the time being,

0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:01.760
<v Speaker 1>United says for those you know, it's about less than

0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:04.600
<v Speaker 1>three percent of their workforce who applied for these exemptions.

0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:06.960
<v Speaker 1>For now, they are going to work still and they're

0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:09.280
<v Speaker 1>going to try to figure it out by October. Right.

0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:11.000
<v Speaker 1>That's a tough one for them, right, and it's like,

0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:13.080
<v Speaker 1>we're not going to fire you, but you're just not

0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:15.720
<v Speaker 1>gonna be getting any hours. So that's gonna be a

0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:18.600
<v Speaker 1>really tough one for them once they get there if

0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:21.080
<v Speaker 1>they pay. And also that I think the people were

0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:23.560
<v Speaker 1>told they had to pay for their own health insurance premium,

0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:25.760
<v Speaker 1>so you know, that's that's a pretty big financial head

0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:28.000
<v Speaker 1>for people, even if it's for six months or eight

0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:31.720
<v Speaker 1>months or something. When it comes to the heads of

0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:34.480
<v Speaker 1>these religions and stuff, when people are trying to claim

0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:37.280
<v Speaker 1>these religious exemptions, does that have anything to do with it,

0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:40.120
<v Speaker 1>Because we've seen Pope Francis, you know, for Catholics obviously,

0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:43.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, he's said people should go out there and

0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:46.720
<v Speaker 1>get their vaccinations. Does it matter if the head of

0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:49.240
<v Speaker 1>your religious organization says yes or no, one way or

0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:51.840
<v Speaker 1>the other. Yeah, you know, Pope Francis said, you know,

0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:55.040
<v Speaker 1>getting vaccinated is an act of love, even it actually,

0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:57.520
<v Speaker 1>when it comes down to it, it doesn't because it's

0:08:57.559 --> 0:09:00.679
<v Speaker 1>really it's not really about what the religious in stitutions

0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:04.200
<v Speaker 1>for leaders say. It's really about your personal belief. But

0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:06.320
<v Speaker 1>it is interesting to see that, you know, even like

0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:11.079
<v Speaker 1>the Christian Science church, Christian Science generally council's prayer rather

0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:14.120
<v Speaker 1>than medical care, they do not have an official policy

0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:16.520
<v Speaker 1>and vaccinations. They've said it's it's up to the individuals

0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:18.800
<v Speaker 1>to decide. So, you know, we do see a lot

0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:23.079
<v Speaker 1>of clerical leaders out there encouraging people to go get vaccinated.

0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:28.679
<v Speaker 1>There are some heads of churches who are saying the opposite,

0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:32.520
<v Speaker 1>even offering to write letters for members of their church

0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:36.200
<v Speaker 1>to you know, support their case for religious exemption. Again

0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:38.840
<v Speaker 1>that given what we've all what we've discussed so far,

0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:42.120
<v Speaker 1>you know that may or may not, you know, help

0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:44.480
<v Speaker 1>your case with your employer. Kind of it's really an

0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:47.480
<v Speaker 1>employer's hands. The last thing, just briefly, because I mentioned

0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:50.679
<v Speaker 1>the misinformation online and everything. You know, there's a lot

0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:53.600
<v Speaker 1>of Facebook groups things like that trying to share tips

0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:57.640
<v Speaker 1>on how to get that religious exemption to succeed. You know,

0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:00.600
<v Speaker 1>some of them are are charging services and uh, you know,

0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:02.839
<v Speaker 1>we'll get somebody to sign this for you to kind

0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:04.560
<v Speaker 1>of what you were just saying right now. A lot

0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:06.480
<v Speaker 1>of that, you know, you really don't know if it's

0:10:06.480 --> 0:10:10.480
<v Speaker 1>gonna work. So that's that's the other tough part of it. Yeah, yeah,

0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:12.800
<v Speaker 1>keep my colleague. Guess my colleague, you know, she's the

0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:14.920
<v Speaker 1>tech reporter. She's she's seen all this. She was in

0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:18.280
<v Speaker 1>these Facebook groups. She saw people charging a hundred seventy

0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:21.000
<v Speaker 1>five dollars for a phone concert over this. You know,

0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:23.160
<v Speaker 1>we really think, you know, people probably should think twice

0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:25.920
<v Speaker 1>about paying for stuff like that, because at the end

0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:28.280
<v Speaker 1>of the day, if your employer feels it's an undoe

0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:30.880
<v Speaker 1>hardship for them to provide you an accommodation. They can

0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:34.320
<v Speaker 1>deny your request. There's a lot still yet to go through,

0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:37.080
<v Speaker 1>and as I mentioned, a lot of these mandate deadlines

0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:39.960
<v Speaker 1>are coming, so a lot more action on all of

0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:43.360
<v Speaker 1>this coming up pretty soon. Still, Andrea Shoe, Labor and

0:10:43.400 --> 0:10:46.240
<v Speaker 1>Workplace correspondent at NPR, thank you very much for joining us.

0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:51.679
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for having me. I'm ascar Rameras

0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:54.800
<v Speaker 1>and this has been reopening America. Don't forget that. For

0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:56.599
<v Speaker 1>today's big news stories, you can check me out on

0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:59.840
<v Speaker 1>the Daily Dive podcast every Monday through Friday. So if

0:10:59.840 --> 0:11:02.079
<v Speaker 1>all old sun I, Heart Radio or wherever you get

0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:05.319
<v Speaker 1>your podcast. H