Speaker 1: It's Monday, October four. I'm Oscar Emiras from the Daily
Speaker 1: Dive podcast in Los Angeles, and this is reopening America.
Speaker 1: As the deadline for many vaccination mandates are coming soon,
Speaker 1: many still resisting their shots are looking for exemptions. Religious
Speaker 1: exemptions are one way that people are seeking to get
Speaker 1: out of the mandates, but they may not be as
Speaker 1: easy to get as some may think. Employers have a
Speaker 1: lot of discretion when granting these. Employers have to provide
Speaker 1: a reasonable accommodation, but they can also probe whether a
Speaker 1: person's beliefs are sincere and deny it if they think
Speaker 1: they're not. Andrea Shoe, Labor and Workplace correspondent at NPR,
Speaker 1: joins us for more. Thanks for joining us, Andrea, thanks
Speaker 1: so much for having me. Well, we're seeing a lot
Speaker 1: more mandates of vaccines coming through, you know, we're seeing
Speaker 1: these in in certain cities. Employers are starting to mandate
Speaker 1: their employees to get the COVID nineteen vaccines, and sometimes
Speaker 1: they're not offering the alternative of maybe getting a weekly
Speaker 1: test or something. A lot of workers are not happy
Speaker 1: about this, and they're pushing back. One of the things
Speaker 1: that a lot of people are trying to do is
Speaker 1: get a real religious exemption to the vaccine mandate. But
Speaker 1: there's all sorts of rules in place with this. The
Speaker 1: employers have a pretty um wide latitude with what they
Speaker 1: can approve and how they can accommodate. So, Andrew, you
Speaker 1: wrote a piece about this really interesting stuff. So help
Speaker 1: us walk through some of this. What are the obligations
Speaker 1: employers have when people say I want to get a
Speaker 1: religious exemption? Right? Right? So the right to request of
Speaker 1: religious exemption comes from Title seven of the Civil Rights Act,
Speaker 1: and you know that is the law that protects workers
Speaker 1: from discrimination on the basis of you know, many things,
Speaker 1: including religion is one of them. So the federal government
Speaker 1: says that, you know, employers have to provide reasonable accommodations
Speaker 1: for the workers who have sincerely held religious beliefs unless
Speaker 1: and there's a really big unless here, unless doing so
Speaker 1: poses an undoe hardship to the company. And so that's
Speaker 1: you know, it's a question like what is an undue hardship.
Speaker 1: That's something that I've been a sploring. Actually, yeah, And
Speaker 1: because you know, if you have to change the whole
Speaker 1: business model or workflow or something, you know, that's an
Speaker 1: easy way to say no at that at that point,
Speaker 1: So when it comes to these reasonable accommodations, you know
Speaker 1: what does that mean? You know what can on what
Speaker 1: basis can they start refusing? Right, so that what the
Speaker 1: law says for religious exemption cases, the undue hardship, it
Speaker 1: doesn't like it doesn't have to be you rearranging your
Speaker 1: whole company. The actual language uses the word diminimus, which
Speaker 1: kind of means minimal. So how undue hardship is defined
Speaker 1: is more than a diminimus cost or burden on the
Speaker 1: operation of the employer's business. So think about it, more
Speaker 1: than a minimal cost. It's a pretty low bar. And
Speaker 1: you know, lawyers I spoke to you gave me examples
Speaker 1: like if somebody's religious beliefs requires them to not work
Speaker 1: on Saturdays and as a result, the company has to
Speaker 1: rearrange a bunch of people's shifts, that could be considered
Speaker 1: an undue hardship and they could deny that person accommodation
Speaker 1: of not working on Saturdays. So there's I mean, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of power obviously on the employer side of things.
Speaker 1: I do want to get into the fact of you know,
Speaker 1: employers can ask you about your religious beliefs, they can
Speaker 1: you know, see if those religious beliefs are sincere. And
Speaker 1: this is where it gets really interesting because you know,
Speaker 1: we're seeing obviously there's a lot of misinformation that's all
Speaker 1: found on the internet. You know, a lot of people
Speaker 1: are saying that they have objections to vaccines that use
Speaker 1: fetal cells in research, testing or production. They don't want
Speaker 1: to be putting that stuff in their bodies. And this
Speaker 1: is where it gets very technical with the COVID nineteen
Speaker 1: vaccines at least, yes, right, so that is a common
Speaker 1: reason that people are citing that they say, you know,
Speaker 1: vaccines are made using fetal cells. What public health officials
Speaker 1: have made clear is that the COVID nineteen vaccines, I'll
Speaker 1: start with Fiser and Maderna, they were used in the
Speaker 1: development and testing of those vaccines. It was fetal cell
Speaker 1: lines that were developed decades go in a laboratory and
Speaker 1: this is a common practice in pharmaceutical research. And then
Speaker 1: for the J and J vaccines a little bit different,
Speaker 1: different fetal cell lines were being used the production of
Speaker 1: the J and J vaccine. But to be clear, none
Speaker 1: of these COVID vaccines contain any fetal cells. And that
Speaker 1: is misinformation that is out there. But um, you know
Speaker 1: one of the CEOs. I spoke to a THEO of
Speaker 1: a hospital in Arkansas. It's Conway Regional Medical Center. Matt
Speaker 1: Troupe is CEO, and you know, he had about forty
Speaker 1: five requests for religious exemptions out of eight hundred employees,
Speaker 1: about five percent. They were all based on the fetal
Speaker 1: cell issue. He wanted to educate his workforce about this issue,
Speaker 1: so he had his staff compiled this list of medicines
Speaker 1: that have also used feel cells. This is really search
Speaker 1: and development. Yeah, this is really great and shows how
Speaker 1: much you know everyday products might be doing this. And
Speaker 1: if you're trying to claim an exemption just for this
Speaker 1: vaccine and you you know, you use any of these
Speaker 1: other products, you really have no standing. It seems like, uh,
Speaker 1: but continue, But that's exactly what he said that He said,
Speaker 1: you know, if you use these products, if you're asking
Speaker 1: for a religious exemption, I want you to attest to
Speaker 1: you not using these products in the future or you know,
Speaker 1: now their products like thailan al I view Profen Tom's
Speaker 1: I think x lax is on the list. Clareton Paptobismo, right,
Speaker 1: and he said, you know, people need to know that
Speaker 1: if they're going to be consistent in their beliefs. You know,
Speaker 1: this applies to a lot of different things. But she
Speaker 1: also mentioned employers can probe their employees on their you know,
Speaker 1: whether their belief is sincerely held. I've also heard people
Speaker 1: employers say they ask, do you have children in public school?
Speaker 1: Are they vaccinated? Because most places do have a vaccine
Speaker 1: requirement for public school? Do you attend church? You know,
Speaker 1: there are all kinds of questions that the employers can ask,
Speaker 1: and I think generally, up until now, most employers took
Speaker 1: employees at their word. If they say I haven't sincerely
Speaker 1: held belief, they would sort of move on to the
Speaker 1: next phase of trying to figure out if there was
Speaker 1: a reasonable accommodation. But I think with the COVID nineteen vaccine,
Speaker 1: a lot more employers are scrutinizing the beliefs that are
Speaker 1: being put forth. Anyway, Yeah, definitely, And in that hospital system,
Speaker 1: I guess that they have their workforce is vaccinated, so
Speaker 1: you know, they're saying, maybe we can do weekly testing
Speaker 1: to help out or something. But but I mean having
Speaker 1: them attest to that kind of questionnaire and do you
Speaker 1: use all this other stuff. Definitely a way to kind
Speaker 1: of weed out those that are just doing this because
Speaker 1: they're trying to be defiant about that whole thing. And
Speaker 1: we're seeing, you know a lot of this stuff coming
Speaker 1: down the pipeline right now. United Airlines is going to
Speaker 1: be firing a lot of people. There's law enforcement agencies
Speaker 1: across the country, a ton of them, you know, have uh,
Speaker 1: you know, try to get realistic religious exemptions, and these
Speaker 1: deadlines are coming to be vaccinated, and there's a potential
Speaker 1: that a lot of people can start losing jobs pretty quickly. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I should note that hospital in Arkansas they did actually
Speaker 1: grant everybody who asked for one of religio this exemption,
Speaker 1: and like you said, they're gonna do testing. The CEO
Speaker 1: really said, this is this is really all about education,
Speaker 1: but you know, we want to be respectful of people's
Speaker 1: religious beliefs. United Airlines, which you mentions, is interesting, they
Speaker 1: did announce that they are starting the termination process. Those
Speaker 1: people did not actually apply for exemptions, They did not
Speaker 1: get the shots, did not apply for exemptions separately. I
Speaker 1: think it's roughly two thousand people applied for exemptions and
Speaker 1: United is still trying to figure that out right now,
Speaker 1: some employees did sue United, saying, you know, because those
Speaker 1: people who applied for religious exemptions and I think medical
Speaker 1: exemptions as well, United told them we're going to put
Speaker 1: you on unpaidly for an indefinite period of time, and
Speaker 1: some employees have suited saying that's not a reasonable accommodation. Now,
Speaker 1: in the past, courts have upheld unpaid leave as a
Speaker 1: reasonable acommodation. They said, yes, this is something employers can offer,
Speaker 1: as you know, it is reasonable. So I'm not sure
Speaker 1: where that's going to end up. But for the time being,
Speaker 1: United says for those you know, it's about less than
Speaker 1: three percent of their workforce who applied for these exemptions.
Speaker 1: For now, they are going to work still and they're
Speaker 1: going to try to figure it out by October. Right.
Speaker 1: That's a tough one for them, right, and it's like,
Speaker 1: we're not going to fire you, but you're just not
Speaker 1: gonna be getting any hours. So that's gonna be a
Speaker 1: really tough one for them once they get there if
Speaker 1: they pay. And also that I think the people were
Speaker 1: told they had to pay for their own health insurance premium,
Speaker 1: so you know, that's that's a pretty big financial head
Speaker 1: for people, even if it's for six months or eight
Speaker 1: months or something. When it comes to the heads of
Speaker 1: these religions and stuff, when people are trying to claim
Speaker 1: these religious exemptions, does that have anything to do with it,
Speaker 1: Because we've seen Pope Francis, you know, for Catholics obviously,
Speaker 1: you know, he's said people should go out there and
Speaker 1: get their vaccinations. Does it matter if the head of
Speaker 1: your religious organization says yes or no, one way or
Speaker 1: the other. Yeah, you know, Pope Francis said, you know,
Speaker 1: getting vaccinated is an act of love, even it actually,
Speaker 1: when it comes down to it, it doesn't because it's
Speaker 1: really it's not really about what the religious in stitutions
Speaker 1: for leaders say. It's really about your personal belief. But
Speaker 1: it is interesting to see that, you know, even like
Speaker 1: the Christian Science church, Christian Science generally council's prayer rather
Speaker 1: than medical care, they do not have an official policy
Speaker 1: and vaccinations. They've said it's it's up to the individuals
Speaker 1: to decide. So, you know, we do see a lot
Speaker 1: of clerical leaders out there encouraging people to go get vaccinated.
Speaker 1: There are some heads of churches who are saying the opposite,
Speaker 1: even offering to write letters for members of their church
Speaker 1: to you know, support their case for religious exemption. Again
Speaker 1: that given what we've all what we've discussed so far,
Speaker 1: you know that may or may not, you know, help
Speaker 1: your case with your employer. Kind of it's really an
Speaker 1: employer's hands. The last thing, just briefly, because I mentioned
Speaker 1: the misinformation online and everything. You know, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of Facebook groups things like that trying to share tips
Speaker 1: on how to get that religious exemption to succeed. You know,
Speaker 1: some of them are are charging services and uh, you know,
Speaker 1: we'll get somebody to sign this for you to kind
Speaker 1: of what you were just saying right now. A lot
Speaker 1: of that, you know, you really don't know if it's
Speaker 1: gonna work. So that's that's the other tough part of it. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: keep my colleague. Guess my colleague, you know, she's the
Speaker 1: tech reporter. She's she's seen all this. She was in
Speaker 1: these Facebook groups. She saw people charging a hundred seventy
Speaker 1: five dollars for a phone concert over this. You know,
Speaker 1: we really think, you know, people probably should think twice
Speaker 1: about paying for stuff like that, because at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, if your employer feels it's an undoe
Speaker 1: hardship for them to provide you an accommodation. They can
Speaker 1: deny your request. There's a lot still yet to go through,
Speaker 1: and as I mentioned, a lot of these mandate deadlines
Speaker 1: are coming, so a lot more action on all of
Speaker 1: this coming up pretty soon. Still, Andrea Shoe, Labor and
Speaker 1: Workplace correspondent at NPR, thank you very much for joining us.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. I'm ascar Rameras
Speaker 1: and this has been reopening America. Don't forget that. For
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