WEBVTT - Psychedelics Playlist: The Manifested Mind, Part 4 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:04.840 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of 0:00:04.880 --> 0:00:14.000 I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, welcome to Stuff 0:00:14.040 --> 0:00:16.160 to Blow Your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb, and 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:18.959 I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part four of 0:00:19.000 --> 0:00:21.919 our exploration of psychedelics. Robert, have we ever made it 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:25.680 to a part four on any series on this show before? Oh? 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:28.960 I don't think we we have really. I mean, there 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:31.600 have been cases where we've had, like an informal series 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:35.200 where each episode is more or less self contained. So 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:37.199 uh yeah, I don't know. I can't think of one 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:40.159 off hand that that has been a four partner. On 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:42.120 the other hand, we could have gone to eight parts 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:45.000 on Dune maybe well may yeah, certainly they're there are 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:48.760 There's so many topics that we could have divided up more, 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:52.840 or we could have uh dwelt on in greater length. 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:55.279 Uh you know this one though, I mean the curious things. 0:00:55.320 --> 0:00:57.400 I feel like we've gone in fairly deep, but we 0:00:57.480 --> 0:01:01.440 still are are only providing like basically a surface outline 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:04.000 and everything you know, and and leaving lots of room 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:07.600 for listeners to then to go out and explore topics 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:10.200 and portions of this topic and greater depth. Well, yeah, 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:13.679 with rich subjects like psychedelics, I guess, especially anything dealing 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:16.640 with the mind, you run into the problem that the 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:19.320 deeper you go, the more you uncover that you should 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:22.160 you know, like you're always just opening up more cases 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:24.880 instead of closing them. Right. It's it's like saying we 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:27.960 were gonna we're gonna do an episode on consciousness. Yeah, yah, 0:01:28.040 --> 0:01:30.760 it's you could sort of do an outline episode of it, 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:33.400 and I imagine we've probably done episodes that are essentially 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:37.160 that in the past, but ultimately consciousness is an ongoing 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:39.480 series on this show, and the same we said for 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:41.800 a number of different topics. But hey, if you're just 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:44.000 jumping in, you should probably go back listen to those 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:47.400 other episodes. First, we did uh Psychedelics parts one through 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:50.080 three before this where what do we talk about, Robert, Well, 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:52.920 we talked about what psychedelics are and also what what 0:01:53.080 --> 0:01:58.800 drugs are. We talked about how psychedelics factor into traditional societies, 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:02.480 how they factor into ancient and modern history, and ultimately 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:05.960 how they factor into both the hopes and fears that 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:10.240 individuals and groups of individuals have had for humanities future. Yeah, 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:12.320 and so in the last episode, In Part three, we 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:15.040 focused a lot on the twentieth century and how there 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:19.440 was research in the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties looking 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:22.600 into how psychedelics could be used in say, psychedelic assisted 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:27.040 therapy for treating conditions like alcoholism. How a lot of 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:30.000 psychiatrists in the nineteen fifties saw its potential as what 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:34.160 they considered a psychoto memdic, meaning that it would mimic 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:37.400 the conditions of psychosis that would allow them to empathize 0:02:37.400 --> 0:02:39.760 with their patients. But then, of course it turned out 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:42.680 to be something rather different than just mimicking the effects 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:45.320 of psychosis. And then we talked about sort of in 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:48.239 the in the mid sixties to about nineteen seventy, where 0:02:48.240 --> 0:02:52.919 the way of crashed psychedelic research encountered a lot of backlash, 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:56.040 and for several decades it's sort of was was forced 0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:59.160 into the underground, and it's only in recent years that 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:01.680 it's experience its two resurgence, And that's what we're going 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:03.679 to focus on today. Yeah, now, I do want to 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:05.560 throw in just a quick note that I don't want 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:09.320 to leave anybody with the idea that all psychedelic research 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:13.240 ended with Nixon's control Substances Act of nineteen seventy and 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:16.720 then didn't pick up at all until after the nineties. Right. 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:18.760 We've made that point in previous episodes, I think, but 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:21.880 that most of it had been driven underground. Right. I 0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:23.679 was actually found a good source. And this has a 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:26.400 nice visual for you know, the ups and downs of 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:31.000 the research with the Beckley Foundation. At Beckley Foundation dot org, 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:34.840 they have a nice overview, a nice graphic. Now, this uh, 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:39.280 particular organization was founded in by Amanda Fielding. I don't 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:41.880 know if you remember Amanda Fielding. Oh yeah, she uh. 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:44.160 I think she talks to Michael Pollen in his book 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:46.120 How to Change Your Mind, which we've been referring to 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:48.360 throughout the past few episodes. I'm sure we'll refer to 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:51.480 several times again today. But she talks to him, I 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:54.320 think at some point and says something like, look, I 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:57.120 understand I have an image problem. I'm a druggy with 0:03:57.160 --> 0:03:59.680 a hole in my head. Right, she underwent Trepid Nation. 0:04:00.360 --> 0:04:02.280 We have an episode in the that we did in 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:05.320 the past Entrepid Nation. But but the foundation itself is 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:08.880 a UK based think tank you and accredited in g 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:11.440 O and it's dedicated to global drug policy reform and 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:16.839 psychedelic research anyway. As they point out, the Control Substances 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:20.320 Act of nineteen seventy effectively ended all government sanctions psychedelic 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:24.000 research and brought everything down to a mere trickle um, 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:26.280 but you still had some research going on that The 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:30.520 lowest point identified um um on this website is seemingly 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:33.039 in the mid nineties. That it was, you know, it 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:36.000 was also very low and like the mid eighties, and 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:38.599 now we're at the point where the research is even 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:42.320 surpassing the previous high point, the previous heyday of the 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:45.760 late nineteen sixties. I've got an informal theory that you 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:49.880 will see an almost perfect correlation in in the twentieth 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:54.520 century timeline between the quantity and quality of action movies 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:58.800 produced by Hollywood and the lack of psychedelic research being done. 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:01.919 It's like the your Speed came out, there can't have 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:05.200 been much psychedelic research going on. That's that would be 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:07.720 interesting to compare those timelines for sure. Now I thought 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:09.640 maybe the first thing that would be good to get 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:14.119 into today is a question about neurochemistry, the question of 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:17.880 what's actually happening in the brains of people who take 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:21.800 psychedelics like LSD and psilocybin. We've talked a lot about 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:26.560 the the anecdotal phenomenological reports people have. You know, what 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:29.920 what do people commonly say about their experiences on these drugs? 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:33.599 But what's causing them to have those experiences chemically in 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:36.240 the brain? Right, because it's all obviously going to come 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:40.960 down to neurochemical in situation. You know, the magic mushrooms 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:45.240 are not actually magic, h the machine, they're not actually 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:48.600 working on your mind. Uh, there's something going on chemically 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:51.400 inside the brain. Yes, But to go back to another 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:54.720 point we've made repeatedly already is the importance of set 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:59.520 and setting. Uh. Psychopharmacology should acknowledge that, especially with some drugs, 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:03.840 psychedelic being some of them, that the context is going 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:07.159 to highly influence what the chemicals due to the brain, 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:09.800 and that in many ways these chemicals should be thought 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:14.440 of as um not necessarily the cause of particular experiences, 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:20.880 but facilitators of experience of varying degrees of intensity. Uh. So, 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:24.279 these psychoactive compounds are of course different from one another. 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:27.960 LST is not exactly psilocybin, psilocybin is not exactly d MT, 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:31.440 and so forth. Uh, so what's found about one doesn't 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:33.960 necessarily apply to all of them, but there do appear 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:37.800 to be some important chemical similarities in the brain, and 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:41.760 so I want to talk about serotonin and serotonin receptors. 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:44.880 On the neurochemical level, there appears to be this really 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:50.520 important connection between certain psychedelics and the endogenous neurotransmitter serotonin. 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:53.920 Serotonin is also known as five hydroxy trip to me 0:06:54.240 --> 0:06:56.279 and the role of serotonin in the brain and the 0:06:56.320 --> 0:07:01.280 body is fantastically complex and still not full understood, and 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:04.440 I think partially because of its role in the history 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:08.400 of research on mood and depression, serotonin is often thought 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:12.840 of as an internal chemical that creates happiness or positive mood, 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:15.480 such that if you don't have enough of it you 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:18.640 get depressed. But I think it turns out that this 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:23.880 is a monumentally oversimplified and largely incorrect view. The most 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:27.920 commonly prescribed antidepressant drugs these days are s s R EYES, 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:32.760 which stands for selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, and what they 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:36.440 do is they block the reabsorption of serotonin in the brain, 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:40.920 increasing serotonin levels overall. But we shouldn't draw the wrong 0:07:40.960 --> 0:07:44.320 conclusions from this. It is not simply a case that 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:50.040 more serotonin equals more happiness or more serotonin equals less depression. 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:52.760 In fact, ending up with too much serotonin due to 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:56.200 drug interactions can cause a potentially fatal condition known as 0:07:56.200 --> 0:08:01.160 serotonin syndrome. One key interacting interaction and where it can 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:05.920 occur is is with ayahuasca and certain antidepressants, which is 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:09.160 a reason that is often stated like, you should be 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:13.040 very careful if you are engaging in what's some called 0:08:13.040 --> 0:08:17.840 freelance um therapeutic psychedelic use. Well, yeah, exactly. I mean 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:20.240 that's one of the things that we alluded to, and 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:22.240 I guess we'll talk about more as the episode goes on, 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:26.040 is that even though we've established that psychedelics have relatively 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:29.320 low recognized risk when compared to many other drugs, it's 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:33.040 not impossible for them to represent risks, especially when you 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:37.240 think about how they may interact with existing psychological conditions 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:39.920 or other drugs that you might be taking. Right. So 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:44.080 back to serotonin. While serotonin does seem highly involved in 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:49.120 the internal regulation of mood, it's mechanism is somewhat complicated, 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:52.200 and it's also involved in a number of other processes 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:55.040 throughout the body. And brain that aren't directly related to mood, 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:57.640 at least as far as we know. For example, digestion 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:00.800 the like the vast majority of the body, serotonin is 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:03.439 found in the gastro intestinal tract, and it has something 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:06.800 to do with the regulation of bowel movements. I'm sure 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:09.440 some comedian out there has a great joke about like 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:13.680 their depression slash bowel movements serotonin thing. I don't know, 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:15.720 I haven't put it together in my head, but run 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:19.319 with it somebody. Uh. But serotonin also has a lot 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:21.720 of other uses in the body. It apparently somehow seems 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:25.480 linked to the regulation of sleep to bone metabolism, so 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:29.600 you know, like the creation of osteoblasts and osteogenesis, uh, 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:33.480 sexual arousal, blood clotting. So there's a lot of stuff 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:36.760 going on. And according to the psychedelic researcher Robin L. 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:39.280 Carhart Harris, who's going to show up in research that 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:42.959 we will talk about later, quote, a compelling unified theory 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:46.960 of brain serotonin function has not yet been established. This 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:51.079 is likely due to the exceptional complexity of the serotonin system, 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:55.559 with its fourteen plus receptors, over twice the number identified 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:59.800 for any of the other major neuromodular systems. So they're 0:09:59.800 --> 0:10:02.960 all lot of different basically holes in the body and 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:06.079 the brain for that molecule to put its peg into, 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:09.640 and they probably all do slightly different things or maybe 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:14.199 largely different things. Nevertheless, it is clear that serotonin plays 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:19.160 some important role in psychiatric disorders like depression, and one 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:21.640 recent theory I thought this was pretty interesting. It's probably 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:25.000 not conclusive. Again, we don't have a agreed upon the 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:27.840 theory of serotonin yet, but one recent theory is that, 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:32.840 in Carhart Harris's words, serotonergic processes are important for quote, 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:38.880 mediating an individual's sensitivity to context. So, you know, serotonin 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:41.240 might play this important role in the brain for like 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:47.600 increasing the salience of contextual things in the environment. But 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:50.880 where does psychedelics come in. So what happens is the 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:56.160 classic psychedelics appear to bind to a specific subclass of 0:10:56.240 --> 0:11:00.640 serotonin receptor known as the serotonin to A A receptor, 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:04.079 and these receptors are found concentrated in the human cortex. 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:07.160 The cortex is the outer layer of the cerebrum the brain, 0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:10.280 which is associated with a lot of higher brain functions 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:14.640 like sensations. You know, the visual cortex the auditory cortex. 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:16.920 It's associated, you know, it's where you have centers for 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:20.560 speech and language, for voluntary action and stuff like that. 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:25.079 So when you take a psychedelic like LSD R psilocybin mushrooms, 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:28.520 the active compounds make their way into the brain and 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:31.800 they sort of play act as serotonin binding to these 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:36.160 serotonin to A receptors. Now, because we have such a 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:39.000 limited grasp of the role of serotonin to begin with, 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:42.600 we don't fully know how to interpret the neurochemistry here, 0:11:42.640 --> 0:11:46.280 like what's happening with the serotonin two A receptors that's 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:51.280 associated with or creating this psychedelic experience. But Robin Carhart 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:55.439 Harris hypothesizes something really interesting. So Carhard Harris says that 0:11:55.559 --> 0:12:02.440 quote serotonin differentially encodes behavioral and physy logical responses to uncertainty. 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:05.920 So under this model, you have like another serotonin receptor, 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:09.319 a different one, the serotonin one A receptor, and Carhart's 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:14.079 Harris says, quote that provides basal control during normal conditions 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:19.000 via moderating emotion and anxiety and promoting a generalized patience. 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:23.760 But the two A receptor, which psychedelics have these agonist 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:25.800 properties for you, the psychedelics go in the two A 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:30.640 receptor Quote is hypothesized to engage more during conditions of 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:36.000 crisis when the above mentioned default mechanism becomes suboptimal e g. 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:40.360 When an individual's internal and or external milieu become so 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:44.680 changeable and or inconsistent with his or her prior beliefs 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:50.040 and behaviors that significant revisions become mandated. In other words, 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:54.680 Carhart Harris is hypothesizing that psychedelics provide a neurochemical hyper 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:59.199 stimulation two receptors in the brain that normally work during 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:04.440 situations of crisis and change to quote relax prior assumptions 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:08.040 or beliefs held at multiple levels of the brain's functional 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:14.079 hierarchy perceptually, emotionally, cognitively, and philosophically e g. In terms 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:17.280 of biases. In so doing, it opens a door to 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:22.599 heighten sensitivity to context, an ideal precondition for effective change. 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:25.959 So that was really interesting to me. Like to be clear, 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:28.680 we still don't know if this hypothesis of what's happening 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:31.760 is correct, but it seems informed by what we do 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:35.640 know about serotonin receptors and about the neurochemistry of psychedelics, 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:38.120 And I guess the idea is that they sort of 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:43.400 mash frantically at buttons in the brain that, naturally, when pressed, 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:48.280 caused the brain to break internal habits, associations, and traditions 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:52.200 at every level, from the senses to the beliefs. Interesting, 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:54.760 so in the same way that a basically like a 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:59.880 traumatic experience can change or alter our our our pre 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:03.400 conceptions about the world, or in the same way that 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:07.360 glimpsing something marvelous like seeing the Grand Canyon for the 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:11.559 first time might have some at least minor change in 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:14.760 the way you think about about the natural world, like 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:19.480 the the psychedelic state is kind of um like leaning 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:23.720 into those uh uh, those kind of experiences though, that 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:27.040 the facilitate change. I think that's right according to this 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:29.480 hypothesis at least, And this does seem to ring true 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:32.080 to me based on everything else we've read. Uh it's 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:33.640 kind of like how I think we've talked about this 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:36.960 on the show before, how it really seems like it's 0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:40.600 easier to break habits or make changes in your life 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:44.440 while you're on vacation or we in in any other 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:46.760 kind of it doesn't have to be just vacation while 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:52.040 you're external contextual circumstances are different. You know, you're faced 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:55.560 with a different environment, different stimuli, maybe you're meeting different people, 0:14:55.840 --> 0:14:59.480 you're facing different challenges or problems. That seems to give 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:02.480 rise to processes in the brain that make us better 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:05.480 at changing what we've done and how we've been before. 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:08.480 And it makes sense, right, because if we is an organism, 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:11.800 we change location, we change what, we change set and setting, 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:14.720 you know, we we end up having to update our 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:18.320 priorities and our our judgments about where we are and 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:21.560 ultimately who we are. And so it seems like under 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:26.280 this hypothesis, psychedelics maybe doing something like that, but in 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:31.800 an even more intense and chemically focused way, right, And yeah, 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:35.600 it's interesting and in a way that does not necessarily 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:40.360 require an experience of trauma or or some sort of 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:43.960 you know, tremendous physical travel. Well, but there are interesting 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:47.320 parallels to trauma. I mean again, this is something that's 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:49.320 very common in the report, so that, like we've read 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:52.760 about with the participants of the March Chapel Experiment, uh, 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:57.600 people very often report having some kind of experience of 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:01.280 dying or going through some great alma during their trip. 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:03.880 And yet after their trip on the whole. They report 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:07.080 positive effects and changes in their mindset and in their life. 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:11.400 So I don't think we should necessarily discount the relationship 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:15.640 to trauma. There. There may be sort of not physical traumas, 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:19.480 but but emotional and psychological traumas that gets simulated or 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:23.000 run through in the brain during the psychedelic experience. Yeah. 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:25.920 I mean, so many of these accounts that we've read 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:29.880 or you know, acquainted ourselves with, they do involve at 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:33.840 least a challenging portion of the overall trip. Maybe the 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:37.960 trip itself is not a quote unquote bad trip, because again, 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:40.760 that's that's kind of disingenuous to get into the idea 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:44.320 of like purely a good trip bad trip scenario. Um. 0:16:44.360 --> 0:16:46.680 So yeah, so much of the time there is a 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:48.720 you know, for lack of a better word, a monster. 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:52.280 But sometimes you have to defeat a monster, right, I mean, 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:55.120 it's it's it's kind of the the old hero's journey. Well, 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:57.320 this is one of the things that's commonly reported by 0:16:57.320 --> 0:17:01.960 psychedelic guides people who do psychedelic assisted therapy that Michael 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:03.800 Paulan talks about this and how to Change your Mind 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:08.280 a good bit about UH one effective strategy of guiding 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:12.600 people through their meditative experience on on psychedelics is to 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:17.000 encourage them to approach challenging experiences in their minds. So 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:20.040 if you know, they're faced with something that scares them, 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:23.040 don't run away from it, go toward it. And this 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:26.240 actually tends to cause people to have very empowering experiences 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:29.480 of discovery. I'm reminded of the the original ending to 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:31.840 Alan Moore's v for Vendetta. I don't know if you 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:34.560 ever read the comic book. I don't believe saw the movie, 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:36.320 but yeah, I don't think I don't think this made 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:39.760 it into the film. But in in the book, there's 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:43.280 an individual who ends up um like taking LSD I 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:46.639 believe it was LSD and visiting the side of you 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:49.600 know what is essentially like like a labor camp or 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:54.199 uh in order to like fully process, like, you know, 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:56.760 the state of the world and his relationship with it. 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:00.639 Really am more of a like a shamanistic h um 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:04.760 kind of psyched delic encounter, but one that is intentionally 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:09.200 traumatic because the character feels that they must they must 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:13.280 confront something that is troubling and traumatic in their life. Yeah, 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:16.240 I think there could very well be uses like that. 0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:19.720 That are that are legitimate and take best advantage of 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:22.560 the psychopharmacology at work here. All Right, on that note, 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:24.359 we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:29.639 right back, thank you. Okay, we're back. So we've been 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:34.800 talking about the neurochemical action of psychedelics and and some 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:36.960 ideas about what may be going on in the brain 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:40.800 there with their relationship to a certain serotonin receptor, the 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:44.600 serotonin two A receptor. But there are also ways of 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:47.040 going beyond the neurochemical level and just looking at the 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:50.960 neurological effects of psychedelics through brain imaging studies. Right yeah, 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:55.240 I mean nothing spells good trip more than getting somebody 0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:58.800 on psilocybin and sticking them in an fMRI machine. Right, 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:01.480 but you can't. I mean, I wonder what those subjective 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:04.640 experiences are like. Surely somebody has studied that, like asking 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:07.560 for the uh, the experiential reports of people have been 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:09.760 in the fm R I But I mean, the studies 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:12.640 are are quite useful looking at where, you know, where 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:15.560 does the blood flow change, what what's receiving oxygen in 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:18.200 the brain. Pollen talks about this at length in his book. 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:22.800 One of the most interesting things is that psychedelics apparently 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:27.600 tend to reduce activity in one of the most interesting 0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:33.440 networks of the brain, which is the default mode network. Adversary, Well, 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:37.600 normally you'd be thinking, okay, psychedelics must be causing increased 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:41.879 activity somewhere, right, But here it's fascinating to see where 0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:45.199 you know, the brain may be empowered by suppressing certain 0:19:45.240 --> 0:19:48.080 parts of it. So the default mode network is a 0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:51.960 brain subsystem we've talked about before. It involves different regions 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:53.680 all over the brain, So it's not just like one 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:56.040 little node somewhere you know, it's happening all over, but 0:19:56.080 --> 0:20:00.600 it's a set of interlinked and and related nodes of 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:03.520 the brain that work together, and it's normally believed to 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:06.960 be most active when we are not engaged in any 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:10.040 other particular task. It seems to be highly associated with 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:14.800 an idol wandering mind, but it is not only active 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:18.080 when we're mentally unoccupied. It's not only when our mind 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:20.719 is wandering or idle that we use the default mode network. 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:24.160 Activation of the default mode network is associated with many 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:30.240 kinds of deliberate thought processes, especially self referential thought processes, 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:35.960 so like autobiographical and self evaluative thinking, The default mode 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:40.320 network seems highly involved in knowing facts about yourself and 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:44.920 in understanding and evaluating characterizations of yourself. If I give 0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:47.800 you a list of adjectives and ask you to think 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:51.679 how they apply to you, we will probably see activation 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:54.320 and regions of the brain that are associated with the 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:57.800 primary activity of the default mode network. Right, and pretty 0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:03.920 much anytime you catch yourself thinking, contemplating, worrying over who 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:06.600 you are and how others perceive you, Uh, this is 0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:09.840 the network that is in play, right. Uh. The default 0:21:09.840 --> 0:21:12.359 mode network also seems to be associated with forms of 0:21:12.440 --> 0:21:16.800 meta cognition, so like reflecting on your own emotional states 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:20.280 and thought processes, which this in itself I mean not 0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:23.480 to really categorize any of these isn't isn't is good 0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:26.760 or bad, but but certainly metacognition in and of itself, 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:29.040 being able to think about your emotions and be self aware, 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:31.840 I mean, it's a uh, it is worth pointing out, yeah, 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:35.080 that even though it's a lot of worrying is caught 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:38.560 up in the default mode network. You can argue them 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:41.520 that a certain amount of our ability to to stop 0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:44.200 and uh and think about how we're thinking is also 0:21:44.240 --> 0:21:46.400 tied up there. Sure, I mean, yeah, the default mode 0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:49.040 network is I mean, it's quite clear we have it 0:21:49.119 --> 0:21:51.919 for a reason, right, It probably it does something useful 0:21:52.040 --> 0:21:54.399 for us. It probably just comes with a lot of 0:21:54.440 --> 0:21:59.760 downsides too. It probably allows us to be philosophical and 0:21:59.760 --> 0:22:01.480 to you know, to do a lot of stuff that 0:22:01.520 --> 0:22:05.000 we value about human culture and human mental abilities. But 0:22:05.080 --> 0:22:08.400 it just also tends to be highly involved in ruminating 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:11.480 on what's wrong with yourself and the world and your 0:22:11.560 --> 0:22:14.199 life and all that. Right, And the next example is 0:22:14.200 --> 0:22:17.040 a key example of this. Well, yeah, so the default 0:22:17.080 --> 0:22:20.320 moon network seems to be highly associated with mental time travel, 0:22:20.880 --> 0:22:23.719 thinking about things that happened in the past and episodic 0:22:23.800 --> 0:22:27.520 memories of those things, and then imagining events in the future, 0:22:27.840 --> 0:22:30.080 which is all this is key if we're going to 0:22:30.080 --> 0:22:33.320 to navigate the world, be at the world that we've 0:22:33.320 --> 0:22:36.360 built for ourselves or even just the natural world. Uh, 0:22:36.720 --> 0:22:38.320 you need to be able to we need to be 0:22:38.359 --> 0:22:40.960 able to to mental time travel to to think about 0:22:41.000 --> 0:22:43.760 the lessons we've learned and prepare for the challenges ahead. 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:47.840 But of course, as humans, we take this too ridiculous extremes, 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:50.399 and we get trapped in the past or trapped in 0:22:50.400 --> 0:22:54.080 the future, and uh, everything that is between those points 0:22:54.200 --> 0:22:57.200 is just stretched out to the point of writtin well 0:22:57.280 --> 0:23:01.320 to mention rumination again as a you know, psychological phenomenon rumination. 0:23:02.040 --> 0:23:04.680 In a way, a positive version of it could be 0:23:05.080 --> 0:23:08.120 thinking about plans for the future, trying to think through 0:23:08.119 --> 0:23:10.000 what you should do and figure out the best thing 0:23:10.040 --> 0:23:12.879 to do. That's an important skill that we have with 0:23:12.920 --> 0:23:17.400 our brains. But also that leads to people just imagining, 0:23:17.680 --> 0:23:20.640 you know, like recursive thought patterns of the way all 0:23:20.640 --> 0:23:23.000 the ways things could go wrong in horrible ways that 0:23:23.040 --> 0:23:26.960 are not actually useful. Right, Well, I mean ultimately too, 0:23:27.080 --> 0:23:29.480