1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, welcome to Stuff 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb, and 4 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:18,959 Speaker 1: I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part four of 5 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 1: our exploration of psychedelics. Robert, have we ever made it 6 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: to a part four on any series on this show before? Oh? 7 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: I don't think we we have really. I mean, there 8 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: have been cases where we've had, like an informal series 9 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,200 Speaker 1: where each episode is more or less self contained. So 10 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: uh yeah, I don't know. I can't think of one 11 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: off hand that that has been a four partner. On 12 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: the other hand, we could have gone to eight parts 13 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: on Dune maybe well may yeah, certainly they're there are 14 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: There's so many topics that we could have divided up more, 15 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:52,840 Speaker 1: or we could have uh dwelt on in greater length. 16 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:55,279 Speaker 1: Uh you know this one though, I mean the curious things. 17 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: I feel like we've gone in fairly deep, but we 18 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: still are are only providing like basically a surface outline 19 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: and everything you know, and and leaving lots of room 20 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: for listeners to then to go out and explore topics 21 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: and portions of this topic and greater depth. Well, yeah, 22 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 1: with rich subjects like psychedelics, I guess, especially anything dealing 23 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: with the mind, you run into the problem that the 24 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 1: deeper you go, the more you uncover that you should 25 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: you know, like you're always just opening up more cases 26 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: instead of closing them. Right. It's it's like saying we 27 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:27,960 Speaker 1: were gonna we're gonna do an episode on consciousness. Yeah, yah, 28 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 1: it's you could sort of do an outline episode of it, 29 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,400 Speaker 1: and I imagine we've probably done episodes that are essentially 30 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: that in the past, but ultimately consciousness is an ongoing 31 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 1: series on this show, and the same we said for 32 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: a number of different topics. But hey, if you're just 33 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: jumping in, you should probably go back listen to those 34 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: other episodes. First, we did uh Psychedelics parts one through 35 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: three before this where what do we talk about, Robert, Well, 36 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: we talked about what psychedelics are and also what what 37 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: drugs are. We talked about how psychedelics factor into traditional societies, 38 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: how they factor into ancient and modern history, and ultimately 39 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: how they factor into both the hopes and fears that 40 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: individuals and groups of individuals have had for humanities future. Yeah, 41 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: and so in the last episode, In Part three, we 42 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: focused a lot on the twentieth century and how there 43 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: was research in the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties looking 44 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: into how psychedelics could be used in say, psychedelic assisted 45 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: therapy for treating conditions like alcoholism. How a lot of 46 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 1: psychiatrists in the nineteen fifties saw its potential as what 47 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: they considered a psychoto memdic, meaning that it would mimic 48 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: the conditions of psychosis that would allow them to empathize 49 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: with their patients. But then, of course it turned out 50 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: to be something rather different than just mimicking the effects 51 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: of psychosis. And then we talked about sort of in 52 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:48,239 Speaker 1: the in the mid sixties to about nineteen seventy, where 53 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 1: the way of crashed psychedelic research encountered a lot of backlash, 54 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: and for several decades it's sort of was was forced 55 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: into the underground, and it's only in recent years that 56 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 1: it's experience its two resurgence, And that's what we're going 57 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:03,679 Speaker 1: to focus on today. Yeah, now, I do want to 58 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: throw in just a quick note that I don't want 59 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: to leave anybody with the idea that all psychedelic research 60 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 1: ended with Nixon's control Substances Act of nineteen seventy and 61 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: then didn't pick up at all until after the nineties. Right. 62 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: We've made that point in previous episodes, I think, but 63 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: that most of it had been driven underground. Right. I 64 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:23,679 Speaker 1: was actually found a good source. And this has a 65 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: nice visual for you know, the ups and downs of 66 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: the research with the Beckley Foundation. At Beckley Foundation dot org, 67 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: they have a nice overview, a nice graphic. Now, this uh, 68 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: particular organization was founded in by Amanda Fielding. I don't 69 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: know if you remember Amanda Fielding. Oh yeah, she uh. 70 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: I think she talks to Michael Pollen in his book 71 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: How to Change Your Mind, which we've been referring to 72 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: throughout the past few episodes. I'm sure we'll refer to 73 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: several times again today. But she talks to him, I 74 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: think at some point and says something like, look, I 75 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: understand I have an image problem. I'm a druggy with 76 00:03:57,160 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: a hole in my head. Right, she underwent Trepid Nation. 77 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: We have an episode in the that we did in 78 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: the past Entrepid Nation. But but the foundation itself is 79 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: a UK based think tank you and accredited in g 80 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: O and it's dedicated to global drug policy reform and 81 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: psychedelic research anyway. As they point out, the Control Substances 82 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: Act of nineteen seventy effectively ended all government sanctions psychedelic 83 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: research and brought everything down to a mere trickle um, 84 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 1: but you still had some research going on that The 85 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: lowest point identified um um on this website is seemingly 86 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,039 Speaker 1: in the mid nineties. That it was, you know, it 87 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: was also very low and like the mid eighties, and 88 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 1: now we're at the point where the research is even 89 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: surpassing the previous high point, the previous heyday of the 90 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: late nineteen sixties. I've got an informal theory that you 91 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: will see an almost perfect correlation in in the twentieth 92 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: century timeline between the quantity and quality of action movies 93 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: produced by Hollywood and the lack of psychedelic research being done. 94 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:01,919 Speaker 1: It's like the your Speed came out, there can't have 95 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: been much psychedelic research going on. That's that would be 96 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:07,720 Speaker 1: interesting to compare those timelines for sure. Now I thought 97 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: maybe the first thing that would be good to get 98 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:14,119 Speaker 1: into today is a question about neurochemistry, the question of 99 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: what's actually happening in the brains of people who take 100 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: psychedelics like LSD and psilocybin. We've talked a lot about 101 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: the the anecdotal phenomenological reports people have. You know, what 102 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 1: what do people commonly say about their experiences on these drugs? 103 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 1: But what's causing them to have those experiences chemically in 104 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: the brain? Right, because it's all obviously going to come 105 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: down to neurochemical in situation. You know, the magic mushrooms 106 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: are not actually magic, h the machine, they're not actually 107 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 1: working on your mind. Uh, there's something going on chemically 108 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: inside the brain. Yes, But to go back to another 109 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 1: point we've made repeatedly already is the importance of set 110 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: and setting. Uh. Psychopharmacology should acknowledge that, especially with some drugs, 111 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 1: psychedelic being some of them, that the context is going 112 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:07,159 Speaker 1: to highly influence what the chemicals due to the brain, 113 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: and that in many ways these chemicals should be thought 114 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: of as um not necessarily the cause of particular experiences, 115 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: but facilitators of experience of varying degrees of intensity. Uh. So, 116 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 1: these psychoactive compounds are of course different from one another. 117 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: LST is not exactly psilocybin, psilocybin is not exactly d MT, 118 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: and so forth. Uh, so what's found about one doesn't 119 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: necessarily apply to all of them, but there do appear 120 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: to be some important chemical similarities in the brain, and 121 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: so I want to talk about serotonin and serotonin receptors. 122 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 1: On the neurochemical level, there appears to be this really 123 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: important connection between certain psychedelics and the endogenous neurotransmitter serotonin. 124 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:53,920 Speaker 1: Serotonin is also known as five hydroxy trip to me 125 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 1: and the role of serotonin in the brain and the 126 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:01,280 Speaker 1: body is fantastically complex and still not full understood, and 127 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: I think partially because of its role in the history 128 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: of research on mood and depression, serotonin is often thought 129 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: of as an internal chemical that creates happiness or positive mood, 130 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: such that if you don't have enough of it you 131 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: get depressed. But I think it turns out that this 132 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: is a monumentally oversimplified and largely incorrect view. The most 133 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: commonly prescribed antidepressant drugs these days are s s R EYES, 134 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: which stands for selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, and what they 135 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: do is they block the reabsorption of serotonin in the brain, 136 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: increasing serotonin levels overall. But we shouldn't draw the wrong 137 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: conclusions from this. It is not simply a case that 138 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: more serotonin equals more happiness or more serotonin equals less depression. 139 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: In fact, ending up with too much serotonin due to 140 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: drug interactions can cause a potentially fatal condition known as 141 00:07:56,200 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: serotonin syndrome. One key interacting interaction and where it can 142 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: occur is is with ayahuasca and certain antidepressants, which is 143 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: a reason that is often stated like, you should be 144 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: very careful if you are engaging in what's some called 145 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 1: freelance um therapeutic psychedelic use. Well, yeah, exactly. I mean 146 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: that's one of the things that we alluded to, and 147 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: I guess we'll talk about more as the episode goes on, 148 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: is that even though we've established that psychedelics have relatively 149 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: low recognized risk when compared to many other drugs, it's 150 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: not impossible for them to represent risks, especially when you 151 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: think about how they may interact with existing psychological conditions 152 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: or other drugs that you might be taking. Right. So 153 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 1: back to serotonin. While serotonin does seem highly involved in 154 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: the internal regulation of mood, it's mechanism is somewhat complicated, 155 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: and it's also involved in a number of other processes 156 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: throughout the body. And brain that aren't directly related to mood, 157 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: at least as far as we know. For example, digestion 158 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: the like the vast majority of the body, serotonin is 159 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 1: found in the gastro intestinal tract, and it has something 160 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: to do with the regulation of bowel movements. I'm sure 161 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 1: some comedian out there has a great joke about like 162 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 1: their depression slash bowel movements serotonin thing. I don't know, 163 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 1: I haven't put it together in my head, but run 164 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:19,319 Speaker 1: with it somebody. Uh. But serotonin also has a lot 165 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 1: of other uses in the body. It apparently somehow seems 166 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: linked to the regulation of sleep to bone metabolism, so 167 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: you know, like the creation of osteoblasts and osteogenesis, uh, 168 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: sexual arousal, blood clotting. So there's a lot of stuff 169 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: going on. And according to the psychedelic researcher Robin L. 170 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: Carhart Harris, who's going to show up in research that 171 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,959 Speaker 1: we will talk about later, quote, a compelling unified theory 172 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: of brain serotonin function has not yet been established. This 173 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:51,079 Speaker 1: is likely due to the exceptional complexity of the serotonin system, 174 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:55,559 Speaker 1: with its fourteen plus receptors, over twice the number identified 175 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: for any of the other major neuromodular systems. So they're 176 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 1: all lot of different basically holes in the body and 177 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,079 Speaker 1: the brain for that molecule to put its peg into, 178 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: and they probably all do slightly different things or maybe 179 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:14,199 Speaker 1: largely different things. Nevertheless, it is clear that serotonin plays 180 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 1: some important role in psychiatric disorders like depression, and one 181 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: recent theory I thought this was pretty interesting. It's probably 182 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: not conclusive. Again, we don't have a agreed upon the 183 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: theory of serotonin yet, but one recent theory is that, 184 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 1: in Carhart Harris's words, serotonergic processes are important for quote, 185 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: mediating an individual's sensitivity to context. So, you know, serotonin 186 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 1: might play this important role in the brain for like 187 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: increasing the salience of contextual things in the environment. But 188 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: where does psychedelics come in. So what happens is the 189 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: classic psychedelics appear to bind to a specific subclass of 190 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: serotonin receptor known as the serotonin to A A receptor, 191 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,079 Speaker 1: and these receptors are found concentrated in the human cortex. 192 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: The cortex is the outer layer of the cerebrum the brain, 193 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: which is associated with a lot of higher brain functions 194 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: like sensations. You know, the visual cortex the auditory cortex. 195 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: It's associated, you know, it's where you have centers for 196 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 1: speech and language, for voluntary action and stuff like that. 197 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:25,079 Speaker 1: So when you take a psychedelic like LSD R psilocybin mushrooms, 198 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: the active compounds make their way into the brain and 199 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: they sort of play act as serotonin binding to these 200 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: serotonin to A receptors. Now, because we have such a 201 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: limited grasp of the role of serotonin to begin with, 202 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: we don't fully know how to interpret the neurochemistry here, 203 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: like what's happening with the serotonin two A receptors that's 204 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: associated with or creating this psychedelic experience. But Robin Carhart 205 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:55,439 Speaker 1: Harris hypothesizes something really interesting. So Carhard Harris says that 206 00:11:55,559 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 1: quote serotonin differentially encodes behavioral and physy logical responses to uncertainty. 207 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: So under this model, you have like another serotonin receptor, 208 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,319 Speaker 1: a different one, the serotonin one A receptor, and Carhart's 209 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:14,079 Speaker 1: Harris says, quote that provides basal control during normal conditions 210 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: via moderating emotion and anxiety and promoting a generalized patience. 211 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 1: But the two A receptor, which psychedelics have these agonist 212 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: properties for you, the psychedelics go in the two A 213 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: receptor Quote is hypothesized to engage more during conditions of 214 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: crisis when the above mentioned default mechanism becomes suboptimal e g. 215 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: When an individual's internal and or external milieu become so 216 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 1: changeable and or inconsistent with his or her prior beliefs 217 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 1: and behaviors that significant revisions become mandated. In other words, 218 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 1: Carhart Harris is hypothesizing that psychedelics provide a neurochemical hyper 219 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 1: stimulation two receptors in the brain that normally work during 220 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:04,440 Speaker 1: situations of crisis and change to quote relax prior assumptions 221 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: or beliefs held at multiple levels of the brain's functional 222 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:14,079 Speaker 1: hierarchy perceptually, emotionally, cognitively, and philosophically e g. In terms 223 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: of biases. In so doing, it opens a door to 224 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:22,599 Speaker 1: heighten sensitivity to context, an ideal precondition for effective change. 225 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:25,959 Speaker 1: So that was really interesting to me. Like to be clear, 226 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: we still don't know if this hypothesis of what's happening 227 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: is correct, but it seems informed by what we do 228 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: know about serotonin receptors and about the neurochemistry of psychedelics, 229 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: And I guess the idea is that they sort of 230 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: mash frantically at buttons in the brain that, naturally, when pressed, 231 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: caused the brain to break internal habits, associations, and traditions 232 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:52,200 Speaker 1: at every level, from the senses to the beliefs. Interesting, 233 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: so in the same way that a basically like a 234 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: traumatic experience can change or alter our our our pre 235 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: conceptions about the world, or in the same way that 236 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: glimpsing something marvelous like seeing the Grand Canyon for the 237 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:11,559 Speaker 1: first time might have some at least minor change in 238 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: the way you think about about the natural world, like 239 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: the the psychedelic state is kind of um like leaning 240 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: into those uh uh, those kind of experiences though, that 241 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 1: the facilitate change. I think that's right according to this 242 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: hypothesis at least, And this does seem to ring true 243 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: to me based on everything else we've read. Uh it's 244 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 1: kind of like how I think we've talked about this 245 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: on the show before, how it really seems like it's 246 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: easier to break habits or make changes in your life 247 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: while you're on vacation or we in in any other 248 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 1: kind of it doesn't have to be just vacation while 249 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: you're external contextual circumstances are different. You know, you're faced 250 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: with a different environment, different stimuli, maybe you're meeting different people, 251 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: you're facing different challenges or problems. That seems to give 252 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: rise to processes in the brain that make us better 253 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: at changing what we've done and how we've been before. 254 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: And it makes sense, right, because if we is an organism, 255 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: we change location, we change what, we change set and setting, 256 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: you know, we we end up having to update our 257 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: priorities and our our judgments about where we are and 258 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: ultimately who we are. And so it seems like under 259 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: this hypothesis, psychedelics maybe doing something like that, but in 260 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 1: an even more intense and chemically focused way, right, And yeah, 261 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: it's interesting and in a way that does not necessarily 262 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 1: require an experience of trauma or or some sort of 263 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: you know, tremendous physical travel. Well, but there are interesting 264 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: parallels to trauma. I mean again, this is something that's 265 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: very common in the report, so that, like we've read 266 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 1: about with the participants of the March Chapel Experiment, uh, 267 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: people very often report having some kind of experience of 268 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: dying or going through some great alma during their trip. 269 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: And yet after their trip on the whole. They report 270 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: positive effects and changes in their mindset and in their life. 271 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: So I don't think we should necessarily discount the relationship 272 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: to trauma. There. There may be sort of not physical traumas, 273 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: but but emotional and psychological traumas that gets simulated or 274 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: run through in the brain during the psychedelic experience. Yeah. 275 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: I mean, so many of these accounts that we've read 276 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: or you know, acquainted ourselves with, they do involve at 277 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: least a challenging portion of the overall trip. Maybe the 278 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: trip itself is not a quote unquote bad trip, because again, 279 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: that's that's kind of disingenuous to get into the idea 280 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: of like purely a good trip bad trip scenario. Um. 281 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: So yeah, so much of the time there is a 282 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: you know, for lack of a better word, a monster. 283 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: But sometimes you have to defeat a monster, right, I mean, 284 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: it's it's it's kind of the the old hero's journey. Well, 285 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: this is one of the things that's commonly reported by 286 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: psychedelic guides people who do psychedelic assisted therapy that Michael 287 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: Paulan talks about this and how to Change your Mind 288 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: a good bit about UH one effective strategy of guiding 289 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: people through their meditative experience on on psychedelics is to 290 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: encourage them to approach challenging experiences in their minds. So 291 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: if you know, they're faced with something that scares them, 292 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: don't run away from it, go toward it. And this 293 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: actually tends to cause people to have very empowering experiences 294 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: of discovery. I'm reminded of the the original ending to 295 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: Alan Moore's v for Vendetta. I don't know if you 296 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: ever read the comic book. I don't believe saw the movie, 297 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: but yeah, I don't think I don't think this made 298 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 1: it into the film. But in in the book, there's 299 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: an individual who ends up um like taking LSD I 300 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:46,639 Speaker 1: believe it was LSD and visiting the side of you 301 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: know what is essentially like like a labor camp or 302 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:54,199 Speaker 1: uh in order to like fully process, like, you know, 303 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: the state of the world and his relationship with it. 304 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 1: Really am more of a like a shamanistic h um 305 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: kind of psyched delic encounter, but one that is intentionally 306 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 1: traumatic because the character feels that they must they must 307 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: confront something that is troubling and traumatic in their life. Yeah, 308 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: I think there could very well be uses like that. 309 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 1: That are that are legitimate and take best advantage of 310 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: the psychopharmacology at work here. All Right, on that note, 311 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 1: we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be 312 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 1: right back, thank you. Okay, we're back. So we've been 313 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: talking about the neurochemical action of psychedelics and and some 314 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: ideas about what may be going on in the brain 315 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: there with their relationship to a certain serotonin receptor, the 316 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: serotonin two A receptor. But there are also ways of 317 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: going beyond the neurochemical level and just looking at the 318 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: neurological effects of psychedelics through brain imaging studies. Right yeah, 319 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: I mean nothing spells good trip more than getting somebody 320 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: on psilocybin and sticking them in an fMRI machine. Right, 321 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 1: but you can't. I mean, I wonder what those subjective 322 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,640 Speaker 1: experiences are like. Surely somebody has studied that, like asking 323 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: for the uh, the experiential reports of people have been 324 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: in the fm R I But I mean, the studies 325 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:12,640 Speaker 1: are are quite useful looking at where, you know, where 326 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 1: does the blood flow change, what what's receiving oxygen in 327 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 1: the brain. Pollen talks about this at length in his book. 328 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: One of the most interesting things is that psychedelics apparently 329 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: tend to reduce activity in one of the most interesting 330 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: networks of the brain, which is the default mode network. Adversary, Well, 331 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: normally you'd be thinking, okay, psychedelics must be causing increased 332 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 1: activity somewhere, right, But here it's fascinating to see where 333 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:45,199 Speaker 1: you know, the brain may be empowered by suppressing certain 334 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: parts of it. So the default mode network is a 335 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: brain subsystem we've talked about before. It involves different regions 336 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:53,680 Speaker 1: all over the brain, So it's not just like one 337 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: little node somewhere you know, it's happening all over, but 338 00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: it's a set of interlinked and and related nodes of 339 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: the brain that work together, and it's normally believed to 340 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 1: be most active when we are not engaged in any 341 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: other particular task. It seems to be highly associated with 342 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: an idol wandering mind, but it is not only active 343 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: when we're mentally unoccupied. It's not only when our mind 344 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,719 Speaker 1: is wandering or idle that we use the default mode network. 345 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 1: Activation of the default mode network is associated with many 346 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 1: kinds of deliberate thought processes, especially self referential thought processes, 347 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 1: so like autobiographical and self evaluative thinking, The default mode 348 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: network seems highly involved in knowing facts about yourself and 349 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:44,920 Speaker 1: in understanding and evaluating characterizations of yourself. If I give 350 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: you a list of adjectives and ask you to think 351 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,679 Speaker 1: how they apply to you, we will probably see activation 352 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: and regions of the brain that are associated with the 353 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: primary activity of the default mode network. Right, and pretty 354 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 1: much anytime you catch yourself thinking, contemplating, worrying over who 355 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: you are and how others perceive you, Uh, this is 356 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: the network that is in play, right. Uh. The default 357 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 1: mode network also seems to be associated with forms of 358 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: meta cognition, so like reflecting on your own emotional states 359 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: and thought processes, which this in itself I mean not 360 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 1: to really categorize any of these isn't isn't is good 361 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: or bad, but but certainly metacognition in and of itself, 362 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: being able to think about your emotions and be self aware, 363 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a uh, it is worth pointing out, yeah, 364 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: that even though it's a lot of worrying is caught 365 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: up in the default mode network. You can argue them 366 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: that a certain amount of our ability to to stop 367 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 1: and uh and think about how we're thinking is also 368 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:46,400 Speaker 1: tied up there. Sure, I mean, yeah, the default mode 369 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: network is I mean, it's quite clear we have it 370 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:51,919 Speaker 1: for a reason, right, It probably it does something useful 371 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,399 Speaker 1: for us. It probably just comes with a lot of 372 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: downsides too. It probably allows us to be philosophical and 373 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: to you know, to do a lot of stuff that 374 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: we value about human culture and human mental abilities. But 375 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:08,400 Speaker 1: it just also tends to be highly involved in ruminating 376 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: on what's wrong with yourself and the world and your 377 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,199 Speaker 1: life and all that. Right, And the next example is 378 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: a key example of this. Well, yeah, so the default 379 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: moon network seems to be highly associated with mental time travel, 380 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,719 Speaker 1: thinking about things that happened in the past and episodic 381 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: memories of those things, and then imagining events in the future, 382 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: which is all this is key if we're going to 383 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: to navigate the world, be at the world that we've 384 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,360 Speaker 1: built for ourselves or even just the natural world. Uh, 385 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: you need to be able to we need to be 386 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 1: able to to mental time travel to to think about 387 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: the lessons we've learned and prepare for the challenges ahead. 388 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: But of course, as humans, we take this too ridiculous extremes, 389 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 1: and we get trapped in the past or trapped in 390 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: the future, and uh, everything that is between those points 391 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 1: is just stretched out to the point of writtin well 392 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: to mention rumination again as a you know, psychological phenomenon rumination. 393 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 1: In a way, a positive version of it could be 394 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,120 Speaker 1: thinking about plans for the future, trying to think through 395 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: what you should do and figure out the best thing 396 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 1: to do. That's an important skill that we have with 397 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:17,400 Speaker 1: our brains. But also that leads to people just imagining, 398 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,640 Speaker 1: you know, like recursive thought patterns of the way all 399 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: the ways things could go wrong in horrible ways that 400 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: are not actually useful. Right, Well, I mean ultimately too, 401 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: it's you know, the idea of pursuit of happiness, the 402 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 1: idea that we should be happy. That's um you know, 403 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,439 Speaker 1: that's that's a that's also a human complication, right, It's 404 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: really part of the evolutionary model, right. I would guess 405 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,159 Speaker 1: one of the easiest ways to make yourself unhappy is 406 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,160 Speaker 1: to try really hard to be happy or to think 407 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,479 Speaker 1: about how to make yourself happy. Absolutely. I remember, moments 408 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: of the purest joy are going to be the times 409 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:56,119 Speaker 1: when we're not actively seeking and grasping for it. Yeah. 410 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,360 Speaker 1: Another thing that seems to be associated with the default 411 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: mode network is thinking about other people. It's important for 412 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 1: theory of mind, so imagining the mental states of others 413 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 1: trying I'm thinking, what is Robert thinking. That's theory of mind, 414 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 1: but then also in making judgments and evaluations about other people. Yeah, 415 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: and of course this is this. This is one of 416 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: those things that's involved and some of the noblest and 417 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,199 Speaker 1: most sought after human experiences. You know, this isn't This 418 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 1: is tied up in in in love and UH and 419 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 1: and family, but it's also caught up in like the 420 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: worst inclinations of humanity as well. Yeah, and so the 421 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 1: default mode network, we've bashed it before, but obviously it's 422 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 1: not bad. And I guess this is sort of a sidetrack, 423 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,119 Speaker 1: but I have read somewhere that the concept of the 424 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,360 Speaker 1: default mode network is one coherent brain subsystem has been 425 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: criticized or challenged by somebody. So no, I think not 426 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: all UH neuroscientists would accept that the default mode network 427 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: is actually a coherent network. But right, like a lot 428 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,919 Speaker 1: of these things, it lends itself to being used as 429 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: mere metaphor for making sense of our our environmental processes. 430 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: And in a similar way that serotonin can be sort 431 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: of misinterpreted. Is you know, but but perhaps, but perhaps 432 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: I think that the default mode network, if it, if 433 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: it is being misused as metaphor, uh some of the 434 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 1: times or even a lot of the times by people, 435 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 1: maybe it's a little more useful or at least less 436 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: harmful a metaphor. Well, I do think it's still largely 437 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 1: accepted within neuroscience, you know, but I'm not talking about 438 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,439 Speaker 1: it like it's not being you know, a valid theory, 439 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 1: but more like when I when I'm engaging with it, 440 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: like to what extent am I engaging with it as 441 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 1: a metaphor for how my mind? Oh? Yeah, I see, yeah, yeah, um, 442 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 1: but yeah, yeah, I mean it's just so interesting that 443 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: this would be a major effective psychedelics on the brain, 444 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: the suppression of activity in the default mode network. Like, 445 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,679 Speaker 1: could it be that suppression of activity in the default 446 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 1: mode network, which is so largely focused on the self 447 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 1: and metacognition and thinking about the past and future and 448 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 1: the evaluation of self, that this suppression is what causes 449 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: all these subjective reports of ego loss or ego dissolution 450 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 1: on psycho psychedelics, boundary dissolution. Yeah, and again, if you 451 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 1: don't remember from we talked about it in the first 452 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 1: episode of the series. Ego loss or ego suppression is 453 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: one of the most interesting common reports of people, especially 454 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,679 Speaker 1: on higher doses of psychedelics, and the best way to 455 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: I mean, that's kind of inherently ineffable, but the best 456 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 1: way to describe it, I guess, is the experience of 457 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: having experience without a self, to have the experience or 458 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 1: of sort of being without being an eye or a me. 459 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 1: And of course, isn't it interesting that we also encountered 460 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,640 Speaker 1: this in dream as well, except maybe not that first 461 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 1: night of sleep in a new location. I remember study 462 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: that came out several years ago that that pointed out 463 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,439 Speaker 1: that what do you see, uh, with increased activity on 464 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 1: that first night of slumber in a new location, the 465 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,399 Speaker 1: default mode now work. Oh so you're dreaming with a higher, 466 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 1: higher state of awareness of self and self other distinctions, right, 467 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 1: or at least it's too revved up to allow like 468 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: a proper night's sleep to take place. So yeah, so 469 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: the ego loss thing definitely suffers from ineff ineff ability. 470 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: But to whatever extent we can understand it, it seems 471 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: to involve a reduction or loss in the sense of 472 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 1: self is a distinct other, separate from the rest of 473 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 1: the universe or from nature, or from whatever is being observed. 474 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: It's kind of ego loss is pure experience without a me, 475 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:35,919 Speaker 1: And so I guess you can see if if the 476 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,719 Speaker 1: default mode network is being suppressed, the default mode network 477 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: does all the stuff we're just talking about, that may 478 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,360 Speaker 1: be what's active there. And it's also worth pointing out 479 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,880 Speaker 1: that there are studies showing that meditation tends to reduce 480 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: activity in the default mode network. Absolutely. We've talked about 481 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 1: some of that research on the show before, and as 482 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 1: we discussed in previous episodes, there are some strong parallels 483 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: between the psychedelic experience caused by drugs and the you know, 484 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: the experience of master meditates. Are people who achieve you know, 485 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 1: like the greatest points of I don't know what you 486 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,679 Speaker 1: call it, the peaks of conscious experience as as sought 487 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,119 Speaker 1: after by by meditation, like mindfulness and stuff. Oh yeah, 488 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: I mean it comes back again to this idea that 489 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: mediccognition is part of the default mode network. It's like, yes, 490 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: you can, you can potentially turn to pharmaceutical on pharmacological 491 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 1: keys to the to the locks that that imprison you, 492 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: but also the key is already in the cell like that, 493 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: the key is is present arguably within the default mode 494 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,119 Speaker 1: network itself. The one thing, at least seems to me, 495 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: I mean, you're much more experienced with meditation than I am, 496 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: is that the meditation route seems to take a lot 497 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: of work, right, Like, it takes a lot of practice 498 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: and people can't always necessarily get there on their own. Um. Yeah, 499 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: I mean it does. But then again, I think I 500 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: think one of them, I'm not trying to knock it, 501 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: but no, no, no, But I think the other side 502 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: is that, like we have to drive home that with um, 503 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: with psychedelics like the you know, again the importance of 504 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: set and setting and intention that this is not necessarily 505 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 1: the easy road either. I mean, it does seem to 506 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 1: be the case that with with psychedelics, you can you 507 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 1: can induce a state like this, uh a lot quicker. 508 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: But at the same time, it's not it's it's not easy. 509 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: It's just not like hitting the Nirvana switch on somebody's brain. 510 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: Uh and uh. And there's gonna be a certain amount 511 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 1: of work involved there, and there's gonna be there're gonna 512 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: be some risks. Well, maybe we should talk about what 513 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 1: the science says about those risks when we come back 514 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 1: from another break. Thank thank alright, we're back. So we've 515 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: we've spoken at a lot on this show in these 516 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 1: episodes about like particular examples of individuals taking a psychedelic 517 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 1: substance and having some sort of mind altering experience, life 518 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 1: altering experience. But we haven't really talked about any of 519 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: the sort of uh, you know, cautionary tales of the 520 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: psychedelic experience, for one part, because those stories are pretty 521 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 1: prevalent in our culture due to the backlash and the 522 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: moral panic surrounding psychedelics. But but I but I did 523 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: think it would be helpful at this point in the 524 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: episode to focus briefly on one example, um, and that 525 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 1: would be I think one of the more famous examples 526 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: of of of of psychosis, schizophrenia Schizzo effective disorder being 527 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: linked to the psychedelic experience, to the consumption of a 528 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: psychedelic substance, Beach Boys co founder Brian Wilson uh uh, 529 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 1: brilliant musician, but has also lived with Schizzo effective disorder 530 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 1: since the mid sixties, with his symptoms reportedly remote, emerging 531 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: shortly after he took LSD and after after he had 532 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: taken it, after these symptoms began to emerge, he would 533 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: he ended up having to struggle with auditory hallucinations from 534 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: that point on, still struggles with them today, I understand now. 535 00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 1: At the same time, it's worth noting that he's had 536 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 1: a lot of positive things to say about the spiritual 537 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 1: and creative influence of psychedelics, but his case does seem 538 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: to stand as a cautionary tale of psychedelic how psychedelics 539 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: can affect someone with a predisposition for schizophrenia or schizoeffective disorder, 540 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 1: or at least the perception that they could have played 541 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 1: a role there. I mean, because I think we still 542 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 1: don't know for sure exactly what that interaction is, but 543 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: it does or not, But but it is. It's certainly 544 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: it seems real enough that everyone mentions it and urges 545 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: everyone to exercise caution in that area. If you do 546 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: have a, say, a family history of schizophrenia. Absolutely, I mean, 547 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 1: I'm all for exercising caution. We I think we've said 548 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 1: this in every episode before, but we do want to 549 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 1: reiterate that we are just trying to be descriptive in 550 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 1: these episodes. We're not telling you that you should take psychedelics. 551 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: That's a decision you can only make on your own 552 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 1: and hopefully in with the consultation of a medical professional 553 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: and like learning, doing your own research and all that 554 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 1: kind of stuff. So you should make sure that if 555 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 1: you are going to go down this path, you understand 556 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: the risks for yourself and you do all the digging 557 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: you need to do there. Now, it does seem to 558 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: be the case that there are plenty of reports of 559 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: of experiences on psychedelics being timed to make it seem 560 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: as if they have triggered symptoms in people with a 561 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 1: predisposition for psychosis, and of course psychosis we should probably 562 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 1: define that. I found a good definition by the National 563 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: Alliance on Mental Illness that psychosis is quote disruptions to 564 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,959 Speaker 1: a person's thoughts and perceptions that make it difficult for 565 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 1: them to recognize what is real and what isn't um 566 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 1: and so so psychosis is a symptom, not a disease. 567 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 1: It's a symptom of conditions like schizophrenia and schizo effective disorder. 568 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: But the I think an important thing to emphasize there 569 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 1: is that psychosis is understood as as causing problems recognizing 570 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 1: reality which is not necessarily the same as the kinds 571 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 1: of experiences the perceptual disturbances that people might have on 572 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 1: psychedelics where you can see things but you know, in 573 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 1: many cases know that they're not really physically present. But 574 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 1: I guess the question is, is there any empirical evidence 575 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: about whether the use of psychedelics actually causes psychosis? Uh, 576 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: there's a little bit. So I was reading a news 577 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 1: feature for the journal Nature by Zoe Cormier which pointed 578 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 1: to two different studies from recent years finding no link 579 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: between psychedelic use and symptoms of psychosis or other mental 580 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 1: health complaints. So these studies are not necessarily definitive, but 581 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 1: this is what the evidence, at least as measured here, 582 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: seems to indicate. So the first study was published in 583 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 1: the Journal of Psychopharmacology and by Johansson and Crebs called 584 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: Psychedelics not linked to mental health problems or suicidal behavior 585 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: of population study. Here, the authors reviewed survey data from 586 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 1: a huge population study comprising more than a hundred and 587 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 1: thirty five thousand adults in the United States, and the 588 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 1: cross checked the use of LSD, psilocybin, and mescalin. So 589 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 1: the study only applies to those three drugs not necessarily 590 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: to others. Uh, those three drugs versus reports of mental 591 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 1: health problems. UH. And I should know that almost twenty 592 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,240 Speaker 1: thousand of the roughly a hundred and thirty five thousand 593 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:13,959 Speaker 1: adults in study had to use psychedelics, so that's about 594 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 1: fourteen percent. They found no correlation. Quote after adjusting for sociodemographics, 595 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,839 Speaker 1: other drug use, and childhood depression, we found no significant 596 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 1: associations between lifetime use of psychedelics and increased likelihood of 597 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:33,280 Speaker 1: past year serious psychological distress, mental health treatment, suicidal thoughts, 598 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:37,760 Speaker 1: suicidal plans and suicide attempt, depression, and anxiety. We failed 599 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 1: to find evidence that psychedelic use is an independent risk 600 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 1: factor for mental health problems, So that's one thing now. 601 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 1: On the other hand, Cormier's article also cites an interview 602 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 1: with Charles Grobe, a pediatric psychiatrist at the University of California, 603 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 1: Los Angeles who is also an advocate for some use 604 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:59,320 Speaker 1: of psychedelics in certain clinical settings, and Grobe seems generally 605 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 1: encouraged by the findings, but warns that we shouldn't conclude 606 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:06,040 Speaker 1: that there are no risks and says that individual cases 607 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 1: of negative effects from psychedelic use do occur. One example, 608 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 1: he gives his hallucinogen persisting perception disorder or hp p D, 609 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 1: which is sometimes described as like the never ending trip. 610 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 1: It involves like repeated or incessant or invasive disturbances of 611 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 1: the visual field or shimmering lights or seeing dots or 612 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 1: something also known as acid flashbacks if you will, uh 613 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:33,759 Speaker 1: Grob gives a quote saying, quote, I've seen a number 614 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: of people with the symptoms following psychedelic experience, and it 615 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,799 Speaker 1: can be a very serious condition. Right. Uh. You know, 616 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: we have an older episode from years back on this 617 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:44,839 Speaker 1: that I think was based in part of a two 618 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 1: thousand thirteen study, and if I remember correctly, that study 619 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 1: found that, you know, it's that it was extremely rare, 620 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 1: uh and in a large part blown out of proportion 621 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: by anti drug messaging, because of course that was part 622 00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 1: of the moral panic, is that everyone's going to take 623 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 1: LSD and they're going to you're either gonna force yourself 624 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,280 Speaker 1: through a key hole or you're gonna deal with acid 625 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 1: flashbacks the rest of your life, or it's gonna be 626 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: the Blue Sunshine scenario. Right, but oh man, blue sunshine 627 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:15,319 Speaker 1: has got to be the best and ugliest psychedelic exploitation cinema. Yeah, 628 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,359 Speaker 1: and thoroughly not like non psychedelic really, but still worth seeing. 629 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,880 Speaker 1: If that movie, that movie is a tan shag carpet, 630 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,560 Speaker 1: it is just hideous starring Zalman King. But I I 631 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,040 Speaker 1: do have to to mention too that I remember when 632 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:30,640 Speaker 1: we aired this episode, and this was I think an 633 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 1: episode I did with Julie Douglas back in the day, 634 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,280 Speaker 1: we did hear from a couple of listeners who insisted 635 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,880 Speaker 1: that they had experienced acid flashbacks at some point in 636 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 1: their life. So, I mean, the the accounts are out there, 637 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 1: there is uh, you know, at least they're at least 638 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 1: accounts of people dealing with these and and you know, 639 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 1: claiming to deal with the reality of of acid flashbacks. 640 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 1: So um, you know, perhaps more studies needed. Well, I mean, 641 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 1: according to grow Is, it's not like that they're serious 642 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 1: doubt that some versions of these things exist. The evidence 643 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:06,280 Speaker 1: seems to show that if to whatever extent these problems 644 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,719 Speaker 1: do exist, they're rare enough that they don't really show 645 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 1: up statistically right. Well, then you know, and also wonder too, 646 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 1: like what other factors are involved there, Like if if 647 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:21,800 Speaker 1: you have had a psychedelic experience and it was meaningful, 648 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 1: as a lot of them end up being they ended 649 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,759 Speaker 1: up being something that stick with you and they give 650 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,440 Speaker 1: you a glimpse of, you know, something that is in 651 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 1: some way hallucinatory, and then later on you have some 652 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 1: sort of hallucinary UH experience that is tied to another 653 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 1: UH situation, like you might have a tendency to interpret 654 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,439 Speaker 1: it as being linked to that original use. Well exactly, Yeah, 655 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,240 Speaker 1: there's a correlation causation issue here. I mean the authors 656 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,839 Speaker 1: of the first study, Crebs and Johansson I mentioned, they 657 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,400 Speaker 1: point out that these symptoms of hpp D also occur 658 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 1: in people who have never taken psychedelics that you know, 659 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 1: so there could be there could be a causality issue. 660 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:04,799 Speaker 1: Decide another study. There was a study by Hendricks at 661 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 1: All in the Journal of Psychopharmacology and called Classic Psychedelic 662 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 1: Uses associated with reduced psychological distress and suicidality in the 663 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 1: United States adult population. So this study looked at an 664 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:21,799 Speaker 1: even larger sample, about a hundred and ninety thousand survey respondents. 665 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 1: It also found that the use of those three psychedelics 666 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,839 Speaker 1: was not and again I mentioned earlier, it was LSD, psilocybin, 667 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:34,240 Speaker 1: and mescalin, so not not necessarily applying to the others. 668 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:38,360 Speaker 1: Those are the classic psychedelics, I guess, so the psychedelic classic, 669 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 1: not to be confused with your classical psychedelics, not new psychedelics. Anyway, 670 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:48,160 Speaker 1: this study found that those three psychedelics were not associated 671 00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,800 Speaker 1: with any adverse mental health outcomes. The study actually found 672 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,960 Speaker 1: some evidence to the exact contrary, People who had at 673 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,920 Speaker 1: some time used LSD or psilocybin had a lower life 674 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,759 Speaker 1: time risk of suicidal ideation or suicide attempts, though it's 675 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 1: not clear that the psychedelics cause these lower rates of 676 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:11,400 Speaker 1: suicidal thoughts and behavior. Maybe there's some factor not controlled 677 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,240 Speaker 1: for that makes people both less prone to these problems 678 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,160 Speaker 1: and more likely to try psychedelics at some point. But 679 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:19,880 Speaker 1: it is worth noting that the use of other non 680 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:24,719 Speaker 1: psychedelic illicit drugs was mostly associated with increases in risk 681 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 1: for past months, psychological distress, and suicidal thoughts and behaviors. 682 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,440 Speaker 1: The psychedelics appeared to be the exception. They were the 683 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 1: drugs that that did not cause increase mental health problems. 684 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 1: And so, to go back to Cormier's article, this was 685 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,440 Speaker 1: written up with a with a quote from one of 686 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,239 Speaker 1: the authors of the paper saying quote the author was 687 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,399 Speaker 1: Matthew Johnson, saying, quote, we're not claiming that no individuals 688 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:50,400 Speaker 1: have ever been harmed by psychedelics. Anecdotes about acid casualties 689 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 1: can be very powerful, but these instances are rare. Uh. 690 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:56,920 Speaker 1: And he says at the population level that the data 691 00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 1: about the harms of psychedelics have been overstated. So again, 692 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,840 Speaker 1: we're not advising any particular plan of action or telling 693 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,280 Speaker 1: people to take psychedelics. I would say the bottom line 694 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 1: from my reading on the risks of psychedelics is that 695 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:12,720 Speaker 1: there do appear to be some risks, but the risks 696 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,720 Speaker 1: are rare. There are risks to any drug. Any drug 697 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,120 Speaker 1: you're going to take, you should research from science based 698 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:23,560 Speaker 1: sources and and if possible, get medical advice before embarking 699 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 1: on um. But then also those risks that do exist 700 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,880 Speaker 1: seem to be relatively low and relatively rare compared to 701 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,080 Speaker 1: the risks of lots of other known drugs. Yeah, ultimately, 702 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:39,240 Speaker 1: basic decisions on science and not on whatever the last 703 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 1: horror movie you saw or or or comedy you know, 704 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,080 Speaker 1: you could go either way, right, depending on what you're watching. 705 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,719 Speaker 1: You can get a very skewed view of what a 706 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,480 Speaker 1: psychedelicy is and what kind of experience you can expect 707 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,600 Speaker 1: from them. Aren't Psychedelic comedy is generally more horrifying than 708 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 1: psychedelic horror. I'm trying to think of what a good side. Well, 709 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:00,680 Speaker 1: you know, you're talking like the Monkeys movie, like head 710 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,439 Speaker 1: and uh and so forth, or Yellow Submarine. I don't 711 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,719 Speaker 1: know for a comedy. Okay, do we did? We run 712 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:10,200 Speaker 1: into the problem we envisioned we might, which is that 713 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:11,879 Speaker 1: we thought this was going to be the last part 714 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:13,879 Speaker 1: and then we only got halfway by the time we're 715 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:16,879 Speaker 1: what like fifty minutes now, Yeah, yeah, I think we're 716 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:18,800 Speaker 1: gonna need to cut this episode off. There's gonna be 717 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 1: one more. So for everyone out there who is enjoying this, uh, 718 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,480 Speaker 1: this ride of psychedelic episodes, well then rejoice because we 719 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,799 Speaker 1: have one more for you. Um, for the rest of you, Well, 720 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,480 Speaker 1: just bear in mind, there's only one more. I mean, 721 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:33,279 Speaker 1: you can't get off. You gotta go all the way 722 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,920 Speaker 1: to the endpoint right right. Yeah, And our next episode, 723 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,319 Speaker 1: we're gonna we're gonna discuss some of what's been going 724 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,240 Speaker 1: on in the twenty one century where we are now 725 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:42,759 Speaker 1: in the psychedelic renaissance, and where we might be going 726 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,160 Speaker 1: in the future sounds great. In the meantime, if you 727 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 1: want to check out more episodes of Stuff to Bow 728 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:48,560 Speaker 1: your Mind, head on over to Stuff to Blew your 729 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:52,120 Speaker 1: Mind dot com. That's where you'll find them all. You also, 730 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,040 Speaker 1: of course, can support our show in a few different ways, 731 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:56,640 Speaker 1: but the best way to do it is to tell 732 00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:58,880 Speaker 1: your friends about Stuff to Blow your Mind. Uh. To 733 00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:01,000 Speaker 1: make sure you have subscribed to this show as well 734 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 1: as our other show, Invention, which is an exploration of 735 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,640 Speaker 1: human techno history and uh and I think we're planning 736 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:11,279 Speaker 1: to do an episode soon or have already done an 737 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:15,560 Speaker 1: episode on penicillin, depending on when you listen to this. Yeah, 738 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:17,880 Speaker 1: we will not have already done it. We will have 739 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,600 Speaker 1: done it. We will do it. I'm not sure where 740 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:22,640 Speaker 1: we will have agreed to do it. We will have 741 00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,520 Speaker 1: agreed to do it. It sounds to me like you're 742 00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,640 Speaker 1: struggling with mental time travel. It can be difficult with 743 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,920 Speaker 1: a two podcast schedule at any rate. Support Invention. Support 744 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,760 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind by subscribing, leaving nice reviews, 745 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,000 Speaker 1: leaving some stars, and telling your friends about it. Huge 746 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:41,360 Speaker 1: thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Maya Cole. 747 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:43,319 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 748 00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:45,880 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 749 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,280 Speaker 1: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 750 00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:51,640 Speaker 1: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 751 00:42:51,680 --> 00:43:03,000 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Yeah. Stuff to Blow Your Mind 752 00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:05,200 Speaker 1: is a production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works. For 753 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:07,879 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, 754 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,640 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 755 00:43:59,719 --> 00:43:59,759 Speaker 1: H