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Speaker 1: Body bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Some of the names

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Speaker 1: that I'm about to give to you kind of contra

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Speaker 1: up all kinds of warm feelings from the perspective of

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Speaker 1: fine food or food that I would consider comfort food.

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Speaker 1: Button chantraline, cremini, shaitaki. One of my favorites orscher snowpuff, portobella.

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Speaker 1: I love a good portobella sandwich, grilled porcini morale for

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Speaker 1: the you high dollar types out there. But you know,

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Speaker 1: the name that is not included on this list is

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Speaker 1: a scientific name. First off, it's called Amanita falloid, otherwise

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Speaker 1: known as a death cap. The death cap a mushroom

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Speaker 1: is so very lethal that once it is ingested, there

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Speaker 1: is a high probability that death will visit you in

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Speaker 1: less than about twenty four hours. Today we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about arguably one of the more bizarre cases that

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Speaker 1: we've heard about. We're going to explore some of the

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Speaker 1: issues that may have occurred in a town in Victoria, Australia.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Gott Morgan, and this is body bags. I

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Speaker 1: love mushrooms, Dave, I love them. This is how I

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Speaker 1: love them. I love them generally button mushrooms. I like

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Speaker 1: to take them fresh ones. Now I don't like them

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Speaker 1: out of the can because they're too salty, and they've

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Speaker 1: got that funky color that's almost gray. It's not very appetizing.

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Speaker 1: But I like to take button mushrooms and sautee them

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Speaker 1: in butter, onions and garlic, and then once I have

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Speaker 1: them just right, and after I have grilled my rib

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Speaker 1: I steak, I like to take them and pour them

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Speaker 1: over the top of that steak and maybe have a

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Speaker 1: few on the side and enjoy that flavor, that robust

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Speaker 1: flavor with a grilled steak. I don't know that there's

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Speaker 1: anything better. Maybe a hamburger with salted mushrooms. But boy,

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you what. You bring out the mushrooms and

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Speaker 1: you really really make my mouth start. A matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: hang on, we'll get my handkerchief out right now. Kind

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Speaker 1: of my mouth is kind of watering.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're kind of freaking me out. How deep you've

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Speaker 2: gone into this, Joe. I'm a little concerned. But the

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Speaker 2: story has gained worldwide attention for its simplicity and diabolical nature.

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Speaker 2: Here it is in a nutshell. Joe Aaron and Simon

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Speaker 2: Patterson have been married for several years, They've got two children. However,

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Speaker 2: the marriages are working out, Aaron and Simon split up. Aaron,

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Speaker 2: hoping for reconciliation, reaches out and invites Simon over for

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Speaker 2: a big lunch with Simon. She invites her exen laws

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Speaker 2: soon to be exend laws, Gail and Don Patterson. She

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Speaker 2: also invites Heather Wilkinson and Ian Wilkins. That would be Wilkinson,

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Speaker 2: that would be Simon's and uncle. Ian Wilkinson is a pastor.

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Speaker 2: He's a much beloved pastor. And I think Aaron, in

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Speaker 2: her mind's I was thinking his family will be in

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Speaker 2: favor of staying together from that generation, if you stay

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Speaker 2: together for the kids or whatever. But what she doesn't

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Speaker 2: know is that Simon's family doesn't trust her. They really

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Speaker 2: are a little weirded out by Aaron Patterson. So as

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Speaker 2: this lunch is going on, this lunch of beef wellington

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Speaker 2: and mushrooms prepared for by a mushroom connoisseur, somebody who

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Speaker 2: knows how to forge, meaning find mushrooms out in the field.

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Speaker 2: She knows the right stores to shop for the right mushrooms.

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Speaker 2: She actually prepares this beef wellington garnished with mushrooms for

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Speaker 2: her soon to be accent loss, thinking there will be

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Speaker 2: a reconciliation, but instead, Simon doesn't show up and the

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Speaker 2: family basically turns on her in her mind's eye, and

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Speaker 2: they are not in favor of the dude getting backed together.

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Speaker 2: What happens next is the reason this story has gone worldwide.

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Speaker 2: Of the five adults sitting in that table partaking of

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Speaker 2: beef wellington garnish with mushrooms, three of them end up

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Speaker 2: dead and one ends up in ICU waiting on a

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Speaker 2: liver transplant. Only one was able to walk away from

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Speaker 2: that table. That person was Aaron Patterson.

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Speaker 1: I find it interesting that she would prepare a meal

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Speaker 1: for these individuals, and it was within a very short

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Speaker 1: period of tom that you've got these individuals who begin

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Speaker 1: to display gastro intestinal discomfort.

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Speaker 2: They were straight up poisoned at lunch. That's what I'm

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Speaker 2: going to be honest with you. We could beat around

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Speaker 2: the bush all day long. But the reason I pointed

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Speaker 2: out that Simon wasn't there and that the family was

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Speaker 2: not in favor of them getting back together is Aaron

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Speaker 2: knew that when they got there, she immediately knew that

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Speaker 2: this was not going the way that she wanted. And

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Speaker 2: next thing, you know, beef wellington and mushrooms deserved and

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Speaker 2: everybody gets sick.

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Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you. Did Aaron get sick?

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Speaker 2: Joe, I'm I'm glad you asked that. I feel like Colombo.

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Speaker 2: According to Aaron, she got sick and that she too

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Speaker 2: went to the hospital.

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Speaker 1: But here's the deal.

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Speaker 2: You've got these four elderly people.

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Speaker 1: Oh and by the way, just let me interject this.

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Speaker 1: The pastor you mentioned, this guy's on the list for

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Speaker 1: a liver transplant, so he's like in dire straits.

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Speaker 2: Well you may as well go ahead and say it.

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Speaker 2: The other three are dead, Joe, They died, and this guy,

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Speaker 2: the pastor. The only reason he's alive is anybody. Ian

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Speaker 2: Wilkinson is alive by the grace of God. That's the

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Speaker 2: only way you can look. They all eat the same thing,

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Speaker 2: so they all get sick and die. Ian, as you mentioned,

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Speaker 2: liver transplanted. The guy's barely hanging on. And Aaron Wilkinson,

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Speaker 2: she's not on her deathbed, she's not in the hospital.

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Speaker 2: She claims she got sick, and there is a report

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Speaker 2: that she did go to the hospital. If you and

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Speaker 2: I go out to dinner tonight and you make meat mushrooms.

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Speaker 2: I could probably go to the hospital and take a

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Speaker 2: good sick I could go in and complain about my stomach,

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Speaker 2: and I could do all of that for at least

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Speaker 2: twelve hours they put me in. Just by complaining alone,

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Speaker 2: I can make myself throw up, tell them anything I

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Speaker 2: needed to tell them. So her being in the hospital

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Speaker 2: doesn't mean very much to me because she doesn't have

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Speaker 2: any of the other symptoms everybody else has.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and most of the time, if there's a toxic

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Speaker 1: substance that everybody is ingesting and it's impacting this many people,

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Speaker 1: there's a high probability that if anyone ingested it, they're

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Speaker 1: going to be equally as sick. As a medical legal

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Speaker 1: death investigator, in forensics, one of the things that we

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Speaker 1: look for is kind of from an epidemiological standpoint. You

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Speaker 1: look for or rogens of diseases. You look for origins

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Speaker 1: of medical conditions and what brought that back, particularly when

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Speaker 1: you're thinking about, say, for instance, a major loss of

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Speaker 1: life event, or you're thinking about something that brings about

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Speaker 1: an illness. Just think about any kind of pandemic. But

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Speaker 1: here we have in almost a microcosm where you have

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Speaker 1: multiple people, three of which die, and you have an

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Speaker 1: additional individual that is now on life support with his

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Speaker 1: liver essentially destroyed. We approach this from a medical model

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Speaker 1: when we're investigating these kinds of cases. It's not like commonly,

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Speaker 1: when you begin to think about gunshot wound or stab

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Speaker 1: wound or bludgeoning, you can kind of trace that back

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Speaker 1: to a single instrument that is used. But it's not

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Speaker 1: so simple when you begin to think about something that

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Speaker 1: is so toxic and incompatible with life, you really have

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Speaker 1: to put your thinking cap on and begin to examine

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Speaker 1: what you have before you and trying to determine because

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Speaker 1: it's not necessarily going to just immediately present itself. You

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Speaker 1: can't look at a body and say, well, look, this

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Speaker 1: toxin is present.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 1: There are certain things that you can look for, particularly

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Speaker 1: like with heavy metal poisoning, for instance, you can see

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Speaker 1: changes in the body and the pallor and all those

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Speaker 1: sorts of things, nail beds and all those things that

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Speaker 1: we look for. But if you're talking about something perhaps

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Speaker 1: like a poison mushroom, that's going to take a bit

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Speaker 1: more time to understand. Because as many cases, as many

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Speaker 1: kinds of toxic events that emergency room personnel have to

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Speaker 1: deal with that walk through the door, and clinical personnel

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Speaker 1: from a treatment standpoint, long term treatment, they don't encounter

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Speaker 1: poison vegetation like this, and certainly not something as glaring

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Speaker 1: as a poison mushroom.

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Speaker 2: When I think about, what would I know if I've

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Speaker 2: sit down to eat and you're describing how much you

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Speaker 2: love the mushroom and you sit down to eat, would

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Speaker 2: they taste different? Do poison mushrooms taste different than non

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Speaker 2: poisonous mushrooms?

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Speaker 1: No, I mean, and listen, I think probably a discerning

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Speaker 1: person that is really into mushrooms. You think about somebody

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Speaker 1: that forages for mushrooms. There are different textures and my

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Speaker 1: family are big on chanterline mushrooms. They love them, they

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Speaker 1: cook with them, they wait for these seasons to come in,

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Speaker 1: and they all have different textures and many of them

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Speaker 1: will be described as being kind of light and others

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Speaker 1: will be described literally as being very beefy when you

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Speaker 1: eat them, And a lot of that has to do

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Speaker 1: with texture and flavor as well. So it's like anything

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Speaker 1: else in the world, whether it's a bottle of wine

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Speaker 1: or a cigar, everybody has different things that they like,

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Speaker 1: and mushrooms are no different. But for this particular species

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Speaker 1: that we're actually talking about with the mushroom, and just

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Speaker 1: so you know, from Jump Street, we know that something

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Speaker 1: is afoot because the authority is actually identified the mushroom

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Speaker 1: as a species that is referred to as the death

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Speaker 1: cap mushroom, and it's highly toxic. But here's the thing.

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Speaker 1: It has to be ingested in order for it to

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Speaker 1: do harm to you. So it's not what we refer

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Speaker 1: to as a transdermal thing. There are certain species of

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Speaker 1: plant life in the world in which we encounter that

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Speaker 1: when you touch it, it can be transdermal. You know,

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Speaker 1: you can absorb it through your skin. And keep in

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Speaker 1: mind a mushroom is not necessarily a plant like we

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Speaker 1: think of. It's actually a fungus that's growing out of

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Speaker 1: the earth like this, and the death cap mushroom actually

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Speaker 1: has kind of this very interwoven network beneath the surface

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Speaker 1: of the earth that it's growing through. So you'll have

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Speaker 1: multiple of these sprouts coming up, but it's very distinctive.

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Speaker 1: And this is the thing. The wife in this particular

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Speaker 1: case aaron. She's known as a forager, and so one

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Speaker 1: of the hallmarks or a really good forager from mushrooms

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Speaker 1: is that you understand species, You understand the way things look.

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Speaker 1: And I beg any of you within the sound of

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Speaker 1: my voice to go and actually take a look at

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Speaker 1: the different species of mushrooms out there, and each one

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Speaker 1: of them are very, very distinctive. And the most common

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Speaker 1: is the button mushroom. It's white. Sometimes they're referred to

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Speaker 1: as white mushrooms around kind of a bulbous head the

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Speaker 1: death cap mushroom, though, Dave, this should be your first warning.

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Speaker 1: The cap itself spreads out rather wide. Think of a

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Speaker 1: rather substantial miniature umbrella, okay, And it's the thickness of

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Speaker 1: it is not as thick as, say, for instance, relatively

196
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Speaker 1: speaking as a portobello or a button mushroom. The cap

197
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Speaker 1: on it is kind of thin. But here's the thing.

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Speaker 1: It has this luminescent green color. When you see it

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Speaker 1: that first off, it doesn't look appetizing at all. I

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Speaker 1: know you don't like mushrooms, and none of them look appetizing.

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Speaker 1: But if you come across something that's green other than

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Speaker 1: maybe a green apple granny smith are green grapes, you're

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Speaker 1: not necessarily going to grab it up and stick in

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Speaker 1: your mouth. Well, and for somebody that does this, even

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Speaker 1: as a hobbyist, they're going to look at this thing

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Speaker 1: and say, you know what, that's probably something that I

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Speaker 1: ought to stay away from. Or they're going to look

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Speaker 1: at it and say, oh my gosh, that's a death

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Speaker 1: cap mushroom. We not only do I need to stay

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Speaker 1: away from it, I need to warn everybody that might

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Speaker 1: be in my little group that goes out and forges

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Speaker 1: for mushrooms that there are death cap mushrooms here. We

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Speaker 1: need to stay away from them.

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Speaker 2: Here we are, at this time and place where you've

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Speaker 2: got a forager. She is an expert on these things.

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Speaker 2: She knows what she's doing when it comes to mushrooms.

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Speaker 2: We've got four people at a lunch that doesn't go

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Speaker 2: her way, and all the adults at the table are

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Speaker 2: sick except for Aaron the Patterson, the woman who prepared it.

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Speaker 2: Her ex husband. Well, I don't like calling somebody X

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Speaker 2: when they're only separated, but I don't think there's any

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Speaker 2: real chance they're going to get back together. But they

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Speaker 2: are currently not together. Simon has no interest and getting

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Speaker 2: back together with his wife Aaron. And yet now we

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Speaker 2: find out and this is something that investigators pulled out.

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Speaker 2: How did these people get sick? Did you feed them

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Speaker 2: these mushrooms? Well, they started looking back in history. Has

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Speaker 2: she done this before? Do we have any other people

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Speaker 2: getting sick when she cooks? Sure enough? May twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 2: a year and two months before her husband Simon ended

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Speaker 2: up in the hospital with very similar symptoms.

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Speaker 1: And that's amazing, because, Dave, if this is in fact,

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Speaker 1: and let's face it, this is almost a serialized event

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Speaker 1: when you think about it. Poisoners in and of themselves

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Speaker 1: are interesting birds, to say the very least. First off,

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Speaker 1: they're very stealthy. And here's the thing. In order to

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Speaker 1: poison someone, and let's just she has not been convicted

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Speaker 1: of having poisoned anyone. Let me see, not even charged yet. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: let me just say that very plainly. But here's the

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Speaker 1: thing with these poisoning cases. You almost have to be

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Speaker 1: an intimate to be within the circle of an individual,

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Speaker 1: because why well, you have to get close enough to

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Speaker 1: them to apply whatever toxin it is that you're looking

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Speaker 1: to get into their system. And what's the most effective

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Speaker 1: way to do that. Well, ingestion is the quickest way

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Speaker 1: to do it, because once you uptake this thing and

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Speaker 1: it begins to metabolize in your system. You're going to

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Speaker 1: have this onset and this horrible onset of nausea. It'll

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Speaker 1: be accompanied by vomiting. There'll be terrible intestinal pain. If

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Speaker 1: you've ever had severe intestinal cramping. It leads to severe dehydration,

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Speaker 1: just an unquenchable thirst. It's a horrible way for these people.

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Speaker 1: The course is very horrible, and they if they can

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Speaker 1: survive beyond I don't know the first six hours or so.

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Speaker 1: Guess what happens. There's a phase two that this kicks

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Speaker 1: into relative to the poisoning, and you think that you're

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Speaker 1: out of the woods. This is a scary part. You

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Speaker 1: might be in the hospital. They've hung an ivy on you.

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Speaker 1: They're pushing the necessary medications into your system. There's almost

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Speaker 1: like this dormant phase where this toxin is coursing through

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Speaker 1: your system. It's not that it's necessarily gone into a

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Speaker 1: dormant state. It's now working at a cellular level and

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Speaker 1: it cannot be detected until it gets into phase three.

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Speaker 1: And you know what happens. Then your liver begins to

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Speaker 1: shut down and we think about the pastor right the

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Speaker 1: sixty six year old, and your kidneys begin to shut

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Speaker 1: down at that moment time. And look, man, if you

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Speaker 1: have renal failure, renal failure is that's one of the

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Speaker 1: leading causes of death at an end stage phase with people.

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Speaker 3: What is it?

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Speaker 2: What is renal fail.

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Speaker 1: Renal failure means literally that your kidneys have shut down

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Speaker 1: and they can no longer appropriately process waste in your body.

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Speaker 1: So everything, all these toxins begin to back up in

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Speaker 1: your body. And isn't it interesting? Also a liver begins

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Speaker 1: to fail, so you go into what's referred to as

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Speaker 1: hepatic failure, which is just a fancy term for the liver,

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Speaker 1: and the liver begins to shut down. The individuals actually

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Speaker 1: begin to present with yellow skin color, and of course

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Speaker 1: we know that means they're in a state of jauntice.

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Speaker 1: If you've never seen anybody with jauntice, it's striking. And

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Speaker 1: when you see them, even what were the whites of

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Speaker 1: their eyes become yellow at that time too, And so

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Speaker 1: they're in a total system failure at this point in time.

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Speaker 1: It's a horrific way to die.

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Speaker 2: How is it possible, Joe, that four people seemingly similar health,

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Speaker 2: three die, one survives. I mean that the fact that

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Speaker 2: the sixty six year old pastor is still alive. Granted

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Speaker 2: he's on a liver transplant list and things are not

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Speaker 2: looking good for him, But is it always obviously is

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Speaker 2: not always fatal. What are some things that would make

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Speaker 2: a difference, do you think?

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Speaker 1: I think probably within this is an excellent point day

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Speaker 1: when you look at this, you think about survivability. This

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Speaker 1: pastor that you mentioned, he is sixty six. The rest

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Speaker 1: of these poor victims, they're well north of sixty six.

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Speaker 1: He's the youngest one in the group. And let's face it,

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Speaker 1: as you age, your systems become weaker than they were

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Speaker 1: when you were younger.

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Speaker 2: Would it be possible that the chef, the person who

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Speaker 2: prepared the dish, that they could, in fact, being substantially younger,

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Speaker 2: eat some of it, have some moderate symptoms, but not deathly.

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Speaker 1: No, I don't think that that's possible, because if you

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Speaker 1: ingested this thing, from my perspective, if you ingested this mushroom,

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Speaker 1: which is arguably the single most toxic mushroom in the world. Okay,

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Speaker 1: there are no degrees to it. Really, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: be very curious to find out when her husband had

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Speaker 1: complained of this illness several months prior to this fatal

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Speaker 1: event that occurred at their home or at their former

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Speaker 1: family home there where they were getting together. I'd like

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Speaker 1: to know the symptomology that he went through and kind

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Speaker 1: of the progress now people can survive this. What's really

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Speaker 1: horrific about this kind of circumstance is that if she did,

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Speaker 1: in fact poison this group of people, she really took

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Speaker 1: a shotgun approach. She was indiscriminate, Dave. She blasted them

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Speaker 1: essentially with this toxic substance, and she really didn't care

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Speaker 1: who died. Maybe she viewed everybody in the room as

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Speaker 1: an enemy. Maybe she said, well, I'm going after the

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Speaker 1: one target, and if other people die as a result

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Speaker 1: of it, so bit. But she certainly didn't die. She

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Speaker 1: still survived.

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Speaker 3: She's lived to tell the tale.

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Speaker 1: I love history, I do unashamedly. I think probably one

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Speaker 1: of our most successful episodes that we had was probably

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Speaker 1: the examination that we did of Julius Caesar's autopsy.

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Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, that was crazy.

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Speaker 1: Well, let me throw another couple of names at you.

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Speaker 1: Emperor Claudius was a Roman empire, and in addition to

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Speaker 1: Emperor Claudius, Charles the six, who was one of the

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Speaker 1: holy Roman emperors. Take a while, guess what both of

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Speaker 1: these cats had in common.

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Speaker 2: Death by poison.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and not just poisoning, but death cap mushroom poisoning.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I thought you were messing with me.

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Speaker 1: No, honest to God's truth. And Voltaire actually wrote about

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Speaker 1: Charles the sixth death as a result of ingesting death

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Speaker 1: cap mushroom. And it may have not have been a

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Speaker 1: homicidal poisoning, but he was on a hunting trip and

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Speaker 1: he ingested these. Claudius was in fact poisoned, lethally poisoned,

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Speaker 1: and common history and I think a lot of these

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Speaker 1: scholars concur that it was probably a death cap mushroom.

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Speaker 1: And these mushrooms have been known for years and years,

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Speaker 1: and they actually they were initially found in Europe, That's

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Speaker 1: where they kind of spring from. And I find it

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Speaker 1: it's fascinating to me the way these things travel across

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Speaker 1: the world, because you know the case of these poor

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Speaker 1: people down in Australia, I don't know that this species

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Speaker 1: of mushroom existed prior to that land down there being

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Speaker 1: inhabited by Europeans. And they can also be found in

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Speaker 1: North America as well. And again, what do we have

350
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Speaker 1: in common with that? Well, the first settlers of North

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Speaker 1: America were European, so it's and you know, over a

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Speaker 1: period of time, certainly these species will kind of evolve

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Speaker 1: within their environment. It might turn into a different species,

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Speaker 1: or it might vary slightly from say the European The

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Speaker 1: one thing that they do have in common is that

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Speaker 1: their level of toxicity and kind of what you're seeing

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Speaker 1: with them when they present at autopsy and certainly in

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Speaker 1: the clinical phase when you're doing an examination of the

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00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:15,760
Speaker 1: records leading up to their death.

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Speaker 2: Let me ask you about autopsy. You mentioned that what

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Speaker 2: did it show up in an autopsy that it was

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Speaker 2: a death cab mushroom poison or would it just be

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Speaker 2: vague in that while they died from some poison, I mean,

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Speaker 2: is there a way to tell?

365
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Speaker 1: This is one of the really cool things about a

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Speaker 1: case involving something that is ingested, like a fungus like this,

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Speaker 1: which a mushroom is, or some type of plant life

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Speaker 1: that we might see. One of the things that we

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Speaker 1: do at autopsy, Dave, and I don't know that many

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Speaker 1: people really think about this. When not only draw blood,

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Speaker 1: we draw urine and bile and vitreous fluid. We examine

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Speaker 1: the organs and take samples of those. One of the

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Speaker 1: tasks that you have to do at autopsy is during

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Speaker 1: the dissection. Just imagine the shape of a stomach. Okay.

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Speaker 1: You have the long tube that comes down the esophagus,

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Speaker 1: and you take a piece of string, okay, and you

377
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Speaker 1: make an incision beneath the esophagus where it attaches on

378
00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,840
Speaker 1: adjacent to where like the aord is and running down

379
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Speaker 1: the spine okay, and you tie that piece of string

380
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Speaker 1: off so that you've essentially tied off the top end

381
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Speaker 1: of the esophagus where it dumps into the stomach, or

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Speaker 1: the lower end of the esophagus, forgive me where it

383
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Speaker 1: dumps into the stomach. And then you cut, you transsect

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Speaker 1: across that where with a pair of scissors. Then you

385
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Speaker 1: go beneath the stomach where it dumps into the small intestine.

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Speaker 1: And here's the other part. You take a piece of

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Speaker 1: string and you tie off that bit that dumps in

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Speaker 1: to actually the small intestine, and you clip below that

389
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,199
Speaker 1: so that when you pull up the stomach you have

390
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 1: a completely in cased sack. It's the stomach removed from

391
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Speaker 1: the body and that's the way we examine it. And

392
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Speaker 1: we'll take that entire stomach before we examine the contents,

393
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Speaker 1: and we'll put it in a scale, and the scales.

394
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 1: If you've ever been to the grocery store and been

395
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Speaker 1: to the produce section, that's what the scales look like

396
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,320
Speaker 1: in the morgue, No more, no less, that's exactly what

397
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,240
Speaker 1: they look like. We measure everything in gram, so we

398
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 1: would get a weight for the stomach where the contents therein.

399
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 1: We then go over to a sink that we have

400
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 1: in the morgue and we carefully hold the stomach above

401
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 1: a container in the sink and we gently opened up

402
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:46,439
Speaker 1: the stomach by incision, and everything that's contained within that

403
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 1: stomach dumps into that container. Now, I know this is

404
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 1: horribly grotesque for people to listen to, but this is

405
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 1: part of medical legal debt investigation because once we have

406
00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 1: all of those remnant that harshly digested food stuffs that

407
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 1: are in stomach, we can take that container and walk

408
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,880
Speaker 1: over to the autopsy table, put it up on our

409
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 1: dissecting board, and very very carefully go through it and

410
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 1: we will literally try to identify every type of substance

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00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 1: that's contained within that gastric content. We'll also get a

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Speaker 1: fluid measurement on it too. We'll talk about how many

413
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 1: c ses of content for instance, you know, like a

414
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 1: c C is an increment of measurement that we do

415
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 1: injections with in a clinical standpoint, but we measure out

416
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 1: in ccs the amount that's contained in the stomach. And

417
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 1: we'll actually talk about color because you know, sometimes it'll

418
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 1: be green the contents of the stomach. It will be green,

419
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 1: it will be a bage. Sometimes you'll see reds. And

420
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 1: you can actually identify food stuffs within the stomach. I'll

421
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 1: give you for an example. The most identifiable food in

422
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,399
Speaker 1: the human stomach that you can come across are actually

423
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,919
Speaker 1: hot dogs because they're in a case, whether it's a

424
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 1: naturally occurring caseing or synthetic casing, and most people don't

425
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:05,919
Speaker 1: chew them up very well, and you can look at

426
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 1: it and say, oh my gosh, that's a hot dog,

427
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 1: and easily easy to spot. Any kind of leafy green

428
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 1: vegetable matter like salads, most of that stuff's easily appreciable.

429
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 1: So with a mushroom, it's kind of spongy, right, so

430
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 1: as it would be chewed all right, you would still

431
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 1: see a remnant of that. Perhaps if you were keen

432
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 1: on this, you would hone in on something that resembles

433
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 1: a mushroom that's in there. And I say this because

434
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 1: this goes back to the investigation that the police would

435
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: have been conducting concurrently with the local corner. Because down

436
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,879
Speaker 1: in Australia they actually still have a corner system. So

437
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 1: when they get together before the autopsy, if there's a

438
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 1: suspicion on the part of the investigators the police that

439
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,919
Speaker 1: is death cap mushrooms have been used, then the corner

440
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 1: would begin to look at this at au time and

441
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 1: they would save every bit of the stomach content day.

442
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 1: They would put it in little clear plastic vials that

443
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 1: have a screw on cap and they would set it aside,

444
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 1: keep it in the refrigerator, keep it cool, and then

445
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 1: they would take a sample of this and they would

446
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 1: send it off. They would send it off to the

447
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 1: crime lab and it would be examined there. It would

448
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: be examined in the crime lab. Now you would have

449
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 1: to have somebody at the crime lab that can look

450
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,400
Speaker 1: at stomach contents like this, and first off, they would

451
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 1: look at it from a taxonomy standpoint where they're identifying

452
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,120
Speaker 1: what type of matter this is. Is it of some

453
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 1: type of non animal matter that has been ingested, So

454
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: it might be a fungus like a mushroom, or it

455
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 1: could be a leafy vegetable like a lettuce or whatever

456
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: it is. You think about the components contained within this

457
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 1: beef wellington dish, which mushrooms are actually a component of.

458
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 1: You think about a baked good, because beef wellington actually

459
00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 1: has a crust on it, it's rolled up, and there's

460
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,719
Speaker 1: beef contained in there obviously, and other vegetable matter, and

461
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 1: so you would be looking at this mishmash of stuff

462
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 1: that's in there. So you have to be very very

463
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 1: careful and once you've identified that mushroom, because heat is

464
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,679
Speaker 1: not going to change it. So if this mushroom was

465
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: baked in, okay, that mushroom is not going to be

466
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,199
Speaker 1: baked down to the point in a kitchen where it

467
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 1: would be unrecognizable from a microscopic standpoint. And if you

468
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: need further help, for instance, in a case like this,

469
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 1: I would suspect that a sample of this mushroom, and

470
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: this happens here in the US relative to the Smithsonian,

471
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 1: they would send a sample of this off to the

472
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,919
Speaker 1: National Museum perhaps or to an organization that deals with

473
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: toxic plants, and there will be specialists on staff that

474
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 1: will specifically identify this, and if this case does go

475
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: to trial, they'll have these individuals testify.

476
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 2: By it amazing that you can find all of that

477
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 2: out at an autopsy, and it makes sense that they

478
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 2: would be. There would be a lot of undigested stuff

479
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 2: in there. The people got sick right away, So even

480
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 2: if they are getting rid of the content, I mean

481
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 2: through expulsion, through vomiting and diarrhea and everything else, there

482
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:16,640
Speaker 2: would still be enough left to determine what actually caused this.

483
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, there would be. And keep in mind, and I

484
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 1: don't want to really discuss people with this, but you

485
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 1: have to understand one of the presentations with this toxic

486
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: event is gastrointestinal discomfort. Okay, so let's just kind of

487
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: take this stage by stage. Once it's ingested, this toxin

488
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 1: goes into the system. Now, how does it go through

489
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 1: into the system. Well, it's in the stomach first, It's

490
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 1: passed through the sophocause it's sitting in the stomach. Just

491
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 1: because we ingest something doesn't mean it just merely pauses

492
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: in the stomach and then goes into the small intestine

493
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 1: where absorption takes place and all this sort of stuff.

494
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 1: At that point, you still have absorption that's going on

495
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: in the stomach. With the triggering mechanism of this toxic event.

496
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 1: You have people that dive nausea. They can vomit, but

497
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: they'll also develop things like diarrhea. So you might have

498
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 1: it coming out of both ends, as they say, but

499
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 1: there would still be a remnant enough of this. And

500
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 1: here's another piece to this that's kind of fascinating. When

501
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: you have a toxic substance like this, it's not just

502
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 1: what has been ingested into the system through absorption through

503
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 1: the stomach and the small intestine and that sort of thing.

504
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: One of the other things that you look for is

505
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 1: that many times with a toxic substance, it will begin

506
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: to cause changes in the lining of the stomach perhaps,

507
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: and those changes that you see are associated and microscopically

508
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: they can be identified as being associated with certain types

509
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 1: of toxins. Okay, you might look at it and it

510
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: might look red and irritated, for instance, or inflamed, but

511
00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: microscopically those changes sometimes can be very specific to specific

512
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: types of toxin. So once that stomach is removed, like

513
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 1: we were talking about just a second ago, you would

514
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 1: trim out part of that stomach itself and you would

515
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: preserve it and the physicians would take it and fix

516
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 1: it onto a slot. And part of that is I

517
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 1: guess you could refer to it as forensic histology. It's

518
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 1: really just histology, which is the study of tissues. So

519
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 1: then that's one of the things that pathologists do. Those

520
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 1: samples that we take from all of the organs in

521
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: the body. They would examine that microscopically over a period

522
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: of time and document those changes and they can testify

523
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 1: to that on stand Dave. Because forensic pathologists are pathologists

524
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 1: as well, and so they're experts in the area of

525
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: histology studying tissue, you know, because like things that come

526
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: out of surgery, if somebody has a gangrenous limb or

527
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 1: or cancers and all these things that are removed, pathologists

528
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 1: takes a look at all that stuff. So they're keen

529
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 1: on different types of tissues, and so that would be

530
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 1: examined as well. So you've got a myriad of things

531
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: that come into play here, and we haven't even mentioned

532
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 1: all of these people will have had some kind of

533
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 1: liver failure as well, and that can be demonstrated. And

534
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 1: it's very powerful when you think about it, because if

535
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 1: this thing were to go to trial, the pathologist could

536
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: actually put up several slides of what healthy liver looks like,

537
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 1: and then they take a slide and they show what

538
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 1: a damaged liver looks like from an acute poison event.

539
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: And it's going to be striking and they will literally

540
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 1: on the stand given an anatomy lesson, and it can

541
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 1: be very powerful.

542
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 2: We probably want to be very clear that she has

543
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 2: not Aaron Patterson has not been charged. She has been

544
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 2: mentioned as somebody they're interested in based on how these

545
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 2: deaths occurred. Three out of the four dying, one still

546
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 2: in the hospital. But police they're playing this as they

547
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 2: get everything together. The one thing that you and I

548
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 2: both noticed, Joe, is the amount of Q and A

549
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 2: you and I have gotten privately away from here of

550
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:02,719
Speaker 2: people asking about this particular case and poisoning. Is it

551
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 2: because using something we eat as a weapon, I mean

552
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,239
Speaker 2: using a gun a knife that you know, you've got

553
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 2: a big deal there. You're talking about something that people eat.

554
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 2: When we began the program today, you were salivating talking

555
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 2: about mushrooms. Is that the fascinating part. You think that

556
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 2: people are going man something in my backyard. In this case,

557
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 2: the death cap mushroom could actually be used as a weapon.

558
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,479
Speaker 2: And the bigger question, could they prosecutors, if they decided

559
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 2: to move forward with this, could they go back and

560
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 2: look at her husband Simon from fourteen months ago when

561
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 2: he was in the hospital in intensive care for twenty

562
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 2: one days with gastrointestinal problems. He had three surgeries while

563
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 2: he was in there. Could they go back and pull

564
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 2: slides from the different things that they were doing with

565
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 2: him and determined at this late date that he himself

566
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 2: was poisoned?

567
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that they probably could. They've certainly for

568
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 1: any of my listeners that have ever been in the hospital,

569
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 1: think about all the times when you were in hospital

570
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 1: at night and that nurse comes in your room and

571
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: wakes you up. Hospital is not the place to go

572
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 1: for rest, right, Well, every time a nurse comes into

573
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: your room, they go back out to their desk and

574
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 1: they chart, they chart, they chart, they chart. Everything that

575
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,479
Speaker 1: they do to you is written down, and God bless nurses.

576
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: I think that they are the unsung heroes in our society.

577
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 1: That's one of the things that they do. They not

578
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: only treat their patients that they're charged to care for,

579
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 1: but they chart and document it all along. And so

580
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: that's a long course for him to have been in

581
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 1: the hospital. And if he has undergone these surgeries, like

582
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 1: you had mentioned, these multiple surgeries, if anything had been

583
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 1: removed from his body at that point in time, Yeah,

584
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 1: I think that there's a high probability that they will

585
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 1: find perhaps some type of changes, tissue changes in his system,

586
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: particularly as the scene kind of metabolizes through that talks

587
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: and metabolizes through his body. And also if there are

588
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: any biological samples like blood that's left behind. They've had

589
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 1: enough time now perhaps that if they are thinking rethinking

590
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: the course of treatment, they're going to go back and

591
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 1: they're going to take a look at everything he has.

592
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 1: And here's the thing, Dave, if they're looking for death

593
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 1: cap mushroom toxicity for him, do you think for two

594
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: seconds he's going to say, no, you guys can't look

595
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: at my medical records. No, that's not what's going to happen.

596
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 1: He's going to say, here, where do I sign the release?

597
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 1: Now he's part of a death investigation, and that his

598
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 1: course of treatment is part of that. So they can

599
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: go back and begin to take a look at it.

600
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 1: They'll take a look at how he initially presented. They're

601
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,359
Speaker 1: going to look at his history. Have you ever had

602
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 1: an event that occurs like this, that is even in

603
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 1: the more distant past, and people that were around him

604
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 1: at the time that this occurred, who had access to him,

605
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 1: if this was in fact a toxic event, who had

606
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,399
Speaker 1: access to, say, his food supply at that moment in time,

607
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 1: And the police are going to look at every bit

608
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: of that period. And here's another thing. I would also

609
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 1: think that if there are any other cases out there

610
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 1: that might have geographic proximity to any of these events

611
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 1: that might share commonalities, you can bet your bottom dollar,

612
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: particularly if they're unsolved or unresolved clinically, they the police,

613
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: the prosecutor down there, they're going to take a long,

614
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 1: hard look at those cases too, Because Dave, this is

615
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 1: not something that happens every day. All right, It's going

616
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: to stand out like a sore thumb. But you know

617
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 1: that brings us back to where we started in this case.

618
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 1: You think about a medical model of investigation, and doctors

619
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 1: and nurses and healthcare workers yet they are clinicians there

620
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,439
Speaker 1: to take care of us. But you know what else, Dave,

621
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:52,399
Speaker 1: they're investigators. Everything they do, every place that they go

622
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 1: with a patient, every bit of treatment that they administer

623
00:35:56,200 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: to a patient is problem solving. And that's all investigations is.

624
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: It's problem solving. It's like a big puzzle. They're going

625
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,919
Speaker 1: to be putting these pieces together. Let's wait and see

626
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 1: what happens with this case, because I for one, I'm

627
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,760
Speaker 1: going to be fascinated to see what the end result

628
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 1: is and to see if this actually did result from

629
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:24,839
Speaker 1: the weaponization of a musherer. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and

630
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:26,839
Speaker 1: this is bodybags