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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to

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Speaker 1: the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much

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Speaker 1: for tuning in. Let's give a shout out to our

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Speaker 1: special guest, our super producer, Ben Sleeping Dog Hacket.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, you gotta let them lie. I hear the

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Speaker 2: sleeping dogs. You're supposed to let them let them lie.

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Speaker 1: There are three of us, so would that make this

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Speaker 1: a three dog night?

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Speaker 2: Apparently three dog morning, late morning, mid morning. I don't

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Speaker 2: know what do you call ten fifteen? It's always nighttime

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Speaker 2: to me. Man, I bet bullied. You are mister Noel Brown.

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Speaker 1: And today we are diving into a very strange concept

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Speaker 1: that still is widely misunderstood in the West. What would

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Speaker 1: you say, guys, if someone came to you and said, Hey,

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Speaker 1: do you want to have a secret compound that is

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Speaker 1: just full of women that you are in love with?

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Speaker 2: Where do I sign up?

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Speaker 1: Right? That's what I'd say. I actually problems, and I

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Speaker 1: love the caveat.

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Speaker 2: And I think you sort of stacked the deck a

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Speaker 2: little bit by adding that you are also in love

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Speaker 2: with right, Because I mean, let's be real, polyamory is

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Speaker 2: certainly a thing, you know, it requires consent, it requires

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Speaker 2: agency on the part of all participants. A harem ain't

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Speaker 2: that though.

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Speaker 1: No, no, we will. We will dive in here with

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Speaker 1: this This episode maybe a two parter. It's about the

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Speaker 1: most famous harems in the Western world world, which are

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Speaker 1: the harems of the Automan Empire. But to understand how

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Speaker 1: dangerous and disturbing the harem of the Ottoman Empire was,

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Speaker 1: we have the first correct some myths about harems in general.

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Speaker 1: With a big shout out to our pals over at Britannica.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, boy, do we love Britannica. Rural Britannica is what

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Speaker 2: I say. Let's change the slogan.

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Speaker 1: We also have some exciting news about the Smithsonian.

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Speaker 2: Right, let's keep it under everybody, get the our stovepipe paths,

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Speaker 2: which we are both definitely wearing right now. What is

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Speaker 2: a harem? To your point, Ben, very important to corrects

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Speaker 2: some myths and Muslim countries. The word harem refers to

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Speaker 2: a part of a home set apart for women of

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Speaker 2: the family, so you know, separated from all the kind

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Speaker 2: of sexual connotations and sort of the exoticized you know,

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Speaker 2: ideas of a harem is sort of a functional thing

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Speaker 2: that has to do with a cultural more, you know,

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Speaker 2: of the Muslim faith, which is not something that is

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Speaker 2: inherently bad at all.

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Speaker 1: Right, yeah, well said. And the etymology harimi is used

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Speaker 1: collectively to refer to the to the occupants of the harem.

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Speaker 1: And there are different terms in different languages in different

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Speaker 1: parts of the world, right, Like what we'll call a

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Speaker 1: harem in India would be zenana or and a room

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Speaker 1: in Iran and in Persian this these just be like

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Speaker 1: places for women or the inside part of the house.

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Speaker 1: And we always associate harems in the West with Muslim practices,

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Speaker 1: but they definitely also existed before Islam in the Middle East,

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Speaker 1: and in the role of the harem right pre Islam,

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Speaker 1: it was a secure private quarters for women who still

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Speaker 1: still obviously played different roles in public life. The profit

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Speaker 1: of Islam did not originate the idea of a harem,

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Speaker 1: nor the idea of veiling or secluding women, but he

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Speaker 1: did co sign it pretty heavily.

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Speaker 2: So in pre Islamic Assyria, Persia and Egypt, many of

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Speaker 2: the royal courts also included a harem, which consisted.

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Speaker 1: Of the rulers wives.

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Speaker 2: They're direct wives by marriage and also they're concubines, which

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Speaker 2: is another term that is loaded and interesting and sort

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Speaker 2: of bandied about, you know, in Western culture. I guess

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Speaker 2: a lot of times this uses a stand in for

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Speaker 2: sort of sex worker or even the more potentially problematic prostitute,

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Speaker 2: which I think is a term that has largely been

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Speaker 2: retired outside of using it as a term of abuse,

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Speaker 2: because of course, sex work is work, and you know,

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Speaker 2: many places it is becoming much more normalized, and it

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Speaker 2: is absolutely with agency and you know, safety, in all

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Speaker 2: a completely legitimate of earning a living. So this harem

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Speaker 2: was kind of like a separate domicile, you know, a compound,

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Speaker 2: let's call it, for all of these female members of

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Speaker 2: the court, including attendants, handmaidens, and of course who we

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Speaker 2: can't talk about this without talking about Unix, something that

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Speaker 2: I just find endlessly fascinating and disturbing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll dive into the unique stuff just a bit,

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Speaker 1: because it is disturbing and endlessly fascinating. As you said, concubine,

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Speaker 1: the best way to think about it would be a mistress, right,

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Speaker 1: And in these in these social hierarchies, being a concubine

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Speaker 1: didn't have to be a dead end job. There was

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Speaker 1: always the potential that one could become one could ascend

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Speaker 1: to the role of wife or something like that.

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Speaker 2: I believe it was even preferable in some cases for

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Speaker 2: a concubine to bear children. Yes, interestingly, I'd love to

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Speaker 2: get into the minutia of why that might be. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: and then of course, you know, it's interesting. It's almost

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Speaker 2: like a brothel in some ways, only it's not for sale.

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Speaker 2: It's all for.

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Speaker 1: One dude and one customer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and his homies. I imagine you gotta imagine he'd

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Speaker 2: bring no never never not. I mean, he has some pals,

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Speaker 2: he'd he spread it around a little bit.

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Speaker 1: I just gotta send a member of his harem to

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Speaker 1: someone else, especially if they're cementing a political.

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Speaker 2: Yeah sense, but never entry would be It's I just

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Speaker 2: find that hard to believe. There would never be exceptions.

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Speaker 2: But I trust you. That's that's. Oh, we don't we

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Speaker 2: don't know. As It's just if if it were me,

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Speaker 2: I'd be having parties, you know. It's it's it's weird,

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Speaker 2: and it just seems like a kind of that you'd

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Speaker 2: host like a bro down, you know. It just feels

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Speaker 2: that way.

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Speaker 1: Members of the Sultan's family like male members of the

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Speaker 1: Sultan's family might be raised in the harem, right that

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Speaker 1: would be that would be a way around it. But

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Speaker 1: as far as like blowout ragers, the kind of it

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Speaker 1: ain't no fun if the homies can't have none sort

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Speaker 1: of vibe, that kind of thing. We don't have tons

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Speaker 1: of proof on because for a long time the West

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Speaker 1: didn't really understand what was going on in the arem,

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Speaker 1: you know, they didn't know it was a political engine.

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Speaker 2: And we're joking around a little bit and maybe being

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Speaker 2: a little minor ely crass and not meaning to, but

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Speaker 2: let's not forget this is, at the end of the day,

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Speaker 2: not sex work. This is sex slavery, and this is

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Speaker 2: sex trafficking in many cases as well, although it's complicated

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Speaker 2: because many of the women that lived in these arams

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Speaker 2: lived not too bad lives. They were pampered, they were

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Speaker 2: able to kind of have all of the resources they needed,

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Speaker 2: but they were living exclusively at the behest of this

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Speaker 2: one dude, at the pleasure of this one dude, which

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Speaker 2: is jacked up if yes, just no matter how it's like,

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Speaker 2: it's like a gilded cage kind of situation, right, very.

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Speaker 1: Much so, and in some cases, well we'll get we'll

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Speaker 1: get in well, this just you know.

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Speaker 2: I just want to make sure we put that ahead

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Speaker 2: of everything else, because it's easy to joke about some

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Speaker 2: of the stuff, but it is, at the end of

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Speaker 2: the day, pretty serious. And there's a lot of you know,

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Speaker 2: very opportunistic, nasty, misogynistic themes in this.

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Speaker 1: Story and the idea of that sort of the racy

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Speaker 1: sex parts. Sometimes they steal the headline from the function

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Speaker 1: of the harem, which was again a political engine. You

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Speaker 1: walk into a harem, especially in the Ottoman Empire there

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Speaker 1: and what you're going to find is uh game of thrones,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean, success battle though yeah right,

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Speaker 1: it's well not always, but what I'm saying is is

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Speaker 1: a political engine, and that it was like pieces on

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Speaker 1: the board that could be used, you know, at the

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Speaker 1: discretion of the.

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Speaker 2: Sultan. You know, like if you wanted to either get

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Speaker 2: or give from the harem, that could be a political tool.

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Speaker 1: That could be a political tool. That's one piece of it.

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Speaker 1: The ultimate aim, the highlander esque part of this is

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Speaker 1: that you, as a member of the harem, if you

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Speaker 1: have a child and you can get your child to

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Speaker 1: be the favored successor of the assaultan then you essentially

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Speaker 1: have gained control of the empire all without necessarily leaving

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Speaker 1: the Harom.

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Speaker 2: Machinations within machinations.

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Speaker 1: So secession, Game of thrones type stuff, real courts, intrigue,

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Speaker 1: and often so. Yes, a lot of female members of

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Speaker 1: the harem may come from enslavement, right, or may come

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Speaker 1: from the horrors of war from an expansionist empire. But

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Speaker 1: a lot of other women in harems came from influential,

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Speaker 1: powerful families. They were politically, they were, uh, they were

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Speaker 1: the links in political alliances, and they sometimes were sent

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Speaker 1: to the harem with a mission.

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Speaker 2: That's right, and to walk back my previous question or

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Speaker 2: sort of I don't know, I guess hypothetical of life.

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Speaker 2: Wouldn't they wouldn't the sultan bring his boys in? They

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Speaker 2: had their own. If they were of a level where

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Speaker 2: they were hanging out with the Sultans, and they were

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Speaker 2: of a powerful enough family, they had their own. And

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Speaker 2: it was very, very common.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 2: The Sultans was just the most bougie and and outrageous

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Speaker 2: and largest, But it was common in affluent households for

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Speaker 2: folks to have these, and even in slightly less affluent

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Speaker 2: households they'd still the norm would be for a male

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Speaker 2: to have multiple mistresses on the side.

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Speaker 1: Well, if you could afford them, if you could, especially

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Speaker 1: once Islam propagated throughout this part of the world, there

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Speaker 1: are there were specific rules, so there are specific rules

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Speaker 1: for how those relationships should be pursued and maintained. And

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Speaker 1: I love that you're pointing out that this is kind

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Speaker 1: of like a It's kind of like saying the bathroom,

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Speaker 1: because most people have their own restroom. It's just some

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Speaker 1: people have super opulent, like stupid fancy restrooms.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, gilded the toilets and the Japanese bidets, you know,

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Speaker 2: things like that.

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Speaker 1: I love it.

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Speaker 2: I love it.

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Speaker 1: And the Ottoman Empire, specifically in Imperial Turkey, the sultan had,

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Speaker 1: like you said, fantastically complicated palatial harem or seraglio, and

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Speaker 1: they this thing had a staff that disciplinary administrative officers.

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Speaker 1: It was all overseen by a former Haram member themselves,

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Speaker 1: the sultan's mother, the Vali da Sultan. Wait, she's saying

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Speaker 1: she was like in charge kind of, She was in

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Speaker 1: charge of the harem, which was a common thing because

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Speaker 1: her son is the one who became the sultan's so

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Speaker 1: she got that key to that power.

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Speaker 2: The structure, though, does remind me still of a brothel

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Speaker 2: where you have kind of the madam or whatever you know,

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Speaker 2: that's in charge and that sort of like keeps everyone

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Speaker 2: in check and make sure everyone's like, you know, going

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Speaker 2: the line or whatever.

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Speaker 1: But in this case it's the sultan's literal mother. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and kind of weird.

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Speaker 2: She's the one that's making sure her son's sex pets

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Speaker 2: are doing. Okay.

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Speaker 1: Again, a lot of it is not actually sex. It's

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Speaker 1: like it's politics, it's intrigue. It's a lot of backstabbing

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Speaker 1: put a lot of sex. There is, obviously there's sex

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Speaker 1: that occurs, but consider this, there are women in a

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Speaker 1: harem who may live the entirety of their lives there

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Speaker 1: and not interact with the sultan. That's in the case

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Speaker 1: of the Automan Empire, because it just it was so big.

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Speaker 1: We know that it wasn't just separated or dare I say,

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Speaker 1: segregated from the rest of the royal court, but from

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Speaker 1: the entirety of public life. It was purposely mysterious. It

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Speaker 1: was a black box. The women inside were either connected

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Speaker 1: to the sultan in that they were family members, or

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Speaker 1: maybe they were They did have some sort of romantic

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Speaker 1: or sexual relationship. They were. They were kind of forced

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Speaker 1: into this sequestered monastic existence. The idea was not it

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Speaker 1: was a guilded cage. As you said, you you could

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Speaker 1: wake up and say I want pomegranates or something, and boom,

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Speaker 1: they would appear for you. But if you woke up

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Speaker 1: and said I would like to walk to the market

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Speaker 1: and get pomegranates, uh huh.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, these are kept women, you know, and the ling

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Speaker 2: and all of that stuff. I mean, and part of

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Speaker 2: that is I believe as a result of a religious belief,

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Speaker 2: right is it part or is that not quite intersecting

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Speaker 2: here yet? Ben like with the you know, you think

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Speaker 2: of the veils and the idea of not letting other

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Speaker 2: men see these women and all of that and keeping

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Speaker 2: them separate or even that part of the home. Doesn't

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Speaker 2: that stem from an Islamic belief?

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Speaker 1: It predates Islam, but Islam does adopt that. Yeah, adopts it.

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Speaker 1: That's a great word for it. And then also yeah,

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Speaker 1: very like also this is an area the internal aspect

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Speaker 1: of the compound means that you don't necessarily have to

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Speaker 1: do that kind of stuff. You don't have to have

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Speaker 1: a veil. It's just the in group and the reality

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Speaker 1: of life there. For a long time, it was very

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Speaker 1: confusing here in the West because Western observers started reporting

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Speaker 1: about harems and other parts of life in the Ottoman

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Speaker 1: Empire in the eighteen hundreds. They weren't what we would

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Speaker 1: call pc. They were not especially careful nor sensitive in

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Speaker 1: their descriptions, and they went for the lurid stuff, you

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Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like how Europeans wrote crazy sex

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Speaker 1: fantasies about Native Americans when they came over to North

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Speaker 1: and South America. The Western writers about the Ottoman Empire

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Speaker 1: weren't really tracing the nuances of political intrigue. They were

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Speaker 1: more like sex house Ottoman and that's where we get

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Speaker 1: a lot of these images of decadence, debauchery, oppression of women,

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Speaker 1: and you know, the finest fabrics, the most succulent and

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Speaker 1: delicious of fruits and meats.

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Speaker 2: Yes, fine linens and oils, lotions, yes, of course, exotic fruits,

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Speaker 2: you know, all of all of that sort. I do

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Speaker 2: want to shout out more piece from Escapus Scott s

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Speaker 2: k A p A s dot com on the Ottoman

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Speaker 2: Harem just a really, really great resource with lots of details,

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Speaker 2: and I was I was. I founded it when I

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Speaker 2: was trying to figure out, like how many are we

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Speaker 2: talking here, and it could be hundreds, right, This is

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Speaker 2: like a almost like a micro city and in in

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Speaker 2: and of itself in the.

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Speaker 1: In the case of the Sultan's harem in the Ottoman Empire, yes,

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Speaker 1: it's it's kind of a hidden city. We could call it,

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Speaker 1: or at the very least a hidden town, just because

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Speaker 1: there are so many people. But there are obviously there

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Speaker 1: are other harems, right, They're just on this level.

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Speaker 2: A million percent, like we were saying, you know, they

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Speaker 2: had they had their own There's also like within the

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Speaker 2: harems kind of a hierarchy, the concept. I found this

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Speaker 2: again on this Escapus article.

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Speaker 1: Odalisks. Yeah, we get at the bottom of the cast system.

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Speaker 2: They were at the bottom of this hierarchy, were kind

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Speaker 2: of more like servants or like handmaids again, and they

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Speaker 2: were kind of not necessarily seen as being attractive enough

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Speaker 2: to ascend to the level of being presented.

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Speaker 1: To Let's jump to this part too, and well we'll

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Speaker 1: get back to the rest of the cast later. But

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Speaker 1: the Odelisque is a very interesting position to Haram because, uh,

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Speaker 1: these are slave children these are child female child slaves

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Speaker 1: who are purchased at a slave market and they're not

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Speaker 1: necessarily going to become full time or they're not going

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Speaker 1: to become Haram members for the rest of their life.

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Speaker 1: You have to be the most beautiful. We don't know

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Speaker 1: who judges that, maybe the Sultan's mom. You have to

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Speaker 1: be judged the most beautiful of the odelisque to be

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Speaker 1: trained in uh in sex work and then different like

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Speaker 1: it's like the Ottoman version of a geisha kind of thing. Yes,

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Speaker 1: what were going on? Entertainment etiquette, and then you would

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Speaker 1: be presented to the Sultan and if the Sultan like

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Speaker 1: your vibe, you could become a concubine. But if nine

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Speaker 1: years pass and the Sultan doesn't ask about you, then

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Speaker 1: you can leave the harem and you can get married.

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Speaker 1: So nine years though nine years long time, but again

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Speaker 1: they're enslaved since their children.

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Speaker 2: Now that's right, right, right, So you could theoretically ascend

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Speaker 2: from the position of odolisk to becoming Yeah, so that's

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Speaker 2: it is like sort of like a ladder.

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Speaker 1: Sort of chaos is a ladder. Sure, So during the

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Speaker 1: sixteenth and seventeenth century, one of the things that really

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Speaker 1: launched Western interest in the Harem, and specific was that

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Speaker 1: the Ottoman court was known for just balling out, for

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Speaker 1: being crazy, extravagant. If you are a if you are

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Speaker 1: another old leader and you meet with the Sultan, or

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Speaker 1: you travel there, or you send a dignitary there, they're

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Speaker 1: going to have the best time of their life, or

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Speaker 1: they might get murdered. So it's a real roll of

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Speaker 1: the dice, it's right, yeah, but they definitely knew how to.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, some of the kind of.

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Speaker 2: Cliche to the point of almost being offensive images we

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Speaker 2: have of this era, you know, there is some truth

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Speaker 2: to them. These these wild, debauched displays of wealth, right,

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Speaker 2: and all of the uses of you know, fine materials,

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Speaker 2: you know, slit silks and all of that, the best

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Speaker 2: of the best, you know, all on display. This idea

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Speaker 2: of like, look, you know, behold my wealth. There is

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Speaker 2: there is truth to that. And then the idea of

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Speaker 2: exotic fruits even and these you know, seductive women scantily clad,

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Speaker 2: there is that. You know, there were times where they

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Speaker 2: might feel like that, right, yeah.

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Speaker 1: And the sultan, given their unique position in the hierarchy

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Speaker 1: of the empire, the sultan had rights other people didn't have,

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Speaker 1: and one of those was one of those was the

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Speaker 1: right to possess as many women as he pleased, even

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Speaker 1: if only for a night. This reminds me of the

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Speaker 1: old oh gosh, the old fake story about the origin

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Speaker 1: of the word beat me her ben, the origin of

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Speaker 1: the word fornication under consent of the king. It was

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Speaker 1: the idea that the king had prima nactus.

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Speaker 2: I think that was in Game of Thrones as well,

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Speaker 2: where that was depicted, the idea of that you could

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Speaker 2: if you so desired. Basically, I think you could either

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Speaker 2: deflower a woman on her wedding nights or something like that.

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Speaker 2: Then that sort of puts a real damper on the

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Speaker 2: proceedings or also literally just possess another man's wife and

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Speaker 2: you couldn't do anything about it. But as we know,

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Speaker 2: sometimes just because you can doesn't mean you should, uh,

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Speaker 2: And it doesn't necessarily bode well for you politically if

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Speaker 2: you start messing with other people's you know, wives in

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Speaker 2: this way, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no opp And then also the also you know,

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Speaker 1: we give democracy a hard time because it's far from perfect,

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Speaker 1: but it's a little better than this system.

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Speaker 2: Ye say, yeah, yeah, one one one could certainly argue

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Speaker 2: that should we talk a little bit more about like

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Speaker 2: the kind of you know, cultural I guess vibes at

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Speaker 2: the time, right, or like the political you know system.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, let's do this. So the court had, because

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Speaker 1: of the Sultan's unique sort of social superpower and cartoonish privilege,

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Speaker 1: the court had hundreds of what we're considered the most

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Speaker 1: beautiful women of the entirety of the empire locked away

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Speaker 1: just surveying the pleasure of the Sultan. They had a

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Speaker 1: lot of free time because the Sultan's one dude, and

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Speaker 1: they spent this free time pursuing one thing, to ascend

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Speaker 1: this hierarchy, to navigate this political these political headwinds, and

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Speaker 1: become more than a servant, someone who could, should the

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Speaker 1: dominoes fall correctly, someone who could basically have the power

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Speaker 1: of the Sultan. And these folks, you know, it's very

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Speaker 1: strange because a lot of them were there non consensually,

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Speaker 1: but they had more power than the average person outside

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Speaker 1: of the Harem. It's it's very it's very weird. We'll

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Speaker 1: get to some weird specifics here. We just need to

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Speaker 1: I think we're doing a good job showing that the

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Speaker 1: harem is not just a sexual playground for the Sultan,

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Speaker 1: it was, but it wasn't.

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Speaker 2: Just that, No, Yeah, it was very multifaceted for sure.

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Speaker 2: To jump even you know, further beyond that point then

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Speaker 2: to take on the next level. There was actually a

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Speaker 2: period in the empire known as the Reign of Women

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Speaker 2: or the cot in Law Sultani, which saw Harem women

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Speaker 2: playing even more powerful roles in politics and wielding significant

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Speaker 2: political capital in the Ottoman Empire. And even you know

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Speaker 2: that of course, being the Ottoman Empire being what it was,

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Speaker 2: that extended out beyond the wider world around and often

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Speaker 2: led to some of these women having incredible power because

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Speaker 2: of their association. I mean, maybe we could dive a

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Speaker 2: little bit more into the Reign of women, but I

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Speaker 2: assume it was just because of their association. This whole

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Speaker 2: idea of being a favorite, or the sultan perhaps relegating

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Speaker 2: or delegating some of his power to this person who

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Speaker 2: has become so close to him, not just sexually but personally,

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Speaker 2: and there's a trust there and maybe it's like you

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Speaker 2: know what you do it, I'm gonna take a break,

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Speaker 2: and I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's having the ear of the king, you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean? Like, yes, there's one guy who gets

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Speaker 1: to sit on the fancy chair. But when someone asking Yeah,

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Speaker 1: when someone asks him a question, he leans over to

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Speaker 1: you know, his his favorite wife, Vanessa and just says, Vanessa,

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Speaker 1: you know more about you know more about the trade

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Speaker 1: and balance of us in Austria Hungary than I do.

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Speaker 1: And she goes, oh, yeah, well you should do this.

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Speaker 1: And he's like, all right, well, guys, Vanessa says you

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Speaker 1: got to get out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it. Power behind the throw. I mean, that's

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Speaker 2: you know, that's that's inherent in any political dynasty, orb

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Speaker 2: especially especially in the case of a more totalitarian or

401
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Speaker 2: dictatorial rule, because it is all coming from one individual

402
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Speaker 2: who can get their info or their counsel from whomever

403
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Speaker 2: they please.

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Speaker 1: And with this, let's let's go to the cast of

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Speaker 1: the Haram Right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we tease it a little bit, let's dig in

407
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Speaker 2: a little deeper, and we're going to get to UNIX

408
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 2: trigger warning. We're going to talk a little bit about

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Speaker 2: genital mutilation here. As you can imagine the process that

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Speaker 2: Lens will give another touristic trigger warning when it's actually

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Speaker 2: about yeah, yeah, it will be, and we won't be

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Speaker 2: super explicit, but it is important to know. So, uh,

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Speaker 2: the population of the harem falls into two groups, the

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Speaker 2: wives and relatives of a sultan. So you could, for instance,

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Speaker 2: be the sultan's aunt or be the sultan's niece, and

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Speaker 2: you live in the harem, right, and you're not attached

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Speaker 2: to the sexual nature at all. So it does still

418
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Speaker 2: occupy that place of the part of the home for women.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, okay, we could even we could even argue

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Speaker 1: that the primary function a place, a specific place for

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Speaker 1: women in the home has been tainted by the success

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Speaker 1: of the sultan. And now he's leaning into maybe twisting

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Speaker 1: the idea of a little because the second serving. Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: second group, which is usually the larger group by by

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Speaker 1: a long by a country mile, is going to be

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Speaker 1: the group of slaves that are brought inside the harem

427
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Speaker 1: from multiple parts of the world. Like we said, the

428
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,360
Speaker 1: new girls were called odalisque. They might get if they

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Speaker 1: they got the right vibe. They get taught poetry and

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Speaker 1: different dance techniques and erotic arts, the erotic arts. If

431
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 1: they don't succeed in this, they become servants. And if

432
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 1: nine years past, in some cases they can leave the

433
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 1: harem because sometimes to be honest, the Sultan just completely

434
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 1: forgot about people. Well, yeah, that sounds very callous, and

435
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 1: it kind of is.

436
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 2: But it's also like this is about there's a curatorial

437
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,479
Speaker 2: aspect to the harem, right, this idea of like keeping

438
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 2: it popping, keeping an interesting. Don't want to get too

439
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 2: stagnat if someone's not pulling their way. It's not like

440
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 2: they're taking out back and shot. They might just be

441
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 2: dismissed and allowed to live a normal life, you know,

442
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 2: and and then get married and have children of their own,

443
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 2: which you know, it's not a magnanimous act. It really

444
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 2: is kind of like a very callous act. It's like, well,

445
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 2: now that I've got no more use for you, I'm

446
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 2: going to let you go back out of the world.

447
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 2: But at least it's better than the alternative, which would

448
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 2: be like banishment or you know, execution.

449
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, also, if you die in a harem, there

450
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 1: is a not insignificant chance that you die as a

451
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 1: result of another rival in the harem not liking you. Yeah,

452
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 1: like they would poison each other, they would try to

453
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: kill each other's children, et cetera.

454
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:42,680
Speaker 2: The political machinations within the harem itself, you know, everyone

455
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,440
Speaker 2: vying for that top.

456
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 1: Spot right right exactly, and then also vying for the

457
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 1: favor of Look, Harem's definitely had a mean girl's click,

458
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 1: so they're vying for the favor of maybe a more powerful,

459
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 1: more established Haram member, and if that means you have

460
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 1: to follow her vibe, Like if you know, if the

461
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,640
Speaker 1: mean girl crew that you're trying to get with says, oh,

462
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 1: we don't like let's use Vanessa again as an example,

463
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 1: we don't like Vanessa, then if you want them to

464
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 1: like you, you have to also dislike Vanessa.

465
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,120
Speaker 2: This is very weirdly complicated, but it's also very weirdly

466
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 2: understandable relatable. If anyone's ever been in middle school, you

467
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 2: kind of get these same vibes just playground bullying and

468
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 2: like again, it's when you come up and you come

469
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 2: from nothing and you have this sort of attitude where

470
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 2: you want to survive. You're gonna glom on in that way,

471
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 2: even if sometimes it makes you go against your better

472
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 2: you know, the morals.

473
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: Perhaps you know, it's like self preservation. If you say, well,

474
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: I think Vanessa isn't that bad, then you may become

475
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 1: the next object of bullying. That's right, or poisoning in

476
00:28:58,360 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 1: this case, yeah.

477
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 2: And you know, even in middle school with her, where

478
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 2: there are those clicks, sometimes you join the mean girl

479
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 2: click just so yourself don't get bullied exactly, you know, Yeah, yeah,

480
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 2: I hate to see it, but there it.

481
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: Is breaking news here in the Ottoman Empire and Harem's folks.

482
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 1: We are having such an immense time here. You know,

483
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: we were talking off air about whether or not this

484
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 1: would be a two parter. I think we defer to

485
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: Max the Sultan Williams, and we just got mured.

486
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 2: He says he can neither confirm nor deny that he.

487
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 1: Is a saultant. But I am here, now he is here,

488
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 1: and so we are going to call this a two parter.

489
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: There is so much more ridiculous history to get into.

490
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 1: We left it at a bit of a cliffhanger. We

491
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 1: don't want to leave you without a dope beat the

492
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: step two. So tune in Thursday for part two of

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00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: the Ottoman Empire's Notorious Harem System. Big big thanks to

494
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 1: our returning super producer, mister Max Williams, Big big thanks

495
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 1: to our guest producer Ben Sleeping Dog Hacket.

496
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 2: Indeed, well geez.

497
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 3: Thanks always to Christopherrasiotis and Eves Jeffcoat here in Spirit,

498
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 3: Jonathan Strickland, The quizt Aj Bahamas, Jacobs the Puzzler.

499
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 1: Yes, Big, big thanks to doctor Rachel Big Spinach Lance Big,

500
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 1: thanks to Alex Williams who composed our soundtrack, and Noel

501
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: Big thanks to you.

502
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:26,959
Speaker 2: On you as well, Ben. We'll see you next time, folks.

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00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

504
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,