WEBVTT - Ep. 381: Backwoods University - Pogie Boats 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:05.880 Welcome to Backwoods University, a place where we focus on wildlife, 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:09.280 wild places and the people who dedicate their lives to 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:12.360 conserving both. Big shout out to ONEX Hunt for their 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:13.600 support of this podcast. 0:00:14.080 --> 0:00:15.760 I'm your host, Lake Pickle. 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:19.000 On this episode, we're headed back down to the brackish 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:22.319 waters of America's Amazon. That's the Gulf for any of 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:25.000 you who may have missed that episode. Only this time 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:28.000 we're setting sail from the Louisiana coast to take a 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:32.120 good look into the minhaden fishing industry, or pogy boats 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:35.280 as they're commonly known, along with the questions surrounding the 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:38.400 amount of byecatch they bring in and the frequent conflicts 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:40.479 they have with recreational fishermen. 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:53.840 Let's dive into it now. 0:00:53.960 --> 0:00:56.480 I'm an Inlander, born and raised where I grew up 0:00:56.480 --> 0:00:58.760 and where I currently live. I'm anywhere from three to 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:02.320 four hours to the missis or Louisiana coast, but still 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:04.720 during the summer or early fall months, one of my 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:07.480 favorite things to do is head down there to catch 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:10.800 speckled trout and redfish. Myself and often three to four 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:13.039 friends will load up and make a long weekend out 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:16.119 of it. Which is what you're hearing in the background here. 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:19.120 This clip is from a trip around terry O, Louisiana 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:22.880 with my good friends Jordan Blissit, Jimmy Primo's, my father, 0:01:23.080 --> 0:01:27.280 Bobby Pickle, and Travis Lovel with really good charters speckle trout. 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:31.480 Fun to catch, excellent to eat. But me personally, man, 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:36.000 I love hooking into those big bull redfish. These things 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:38.080 will pull and fight you to the point where you'll 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:40.480 be thinking that you have somehow managed to set your 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:43.200 hook into a diesel truck. It's a fight and thrill 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:46.240 that's impossible to forget. But that is just one of 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:49.040 the many crown jewels that make the Louisiana Gulf Coast 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:52.040 what it is. It's the people, it's the scenery, it's 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:53.800 the smell of the air down there, and the bull 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:57.600 trump if you're lucky. There's a reason, or really a 0:01:57.640 --> 0:01:59.800 whole lot of reasons that this place has been a 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:04.480 sot out destination for thousands upon thousands of anglers. And 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:06.640 the short clip that I've shared with y'all here is 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:09.320 one of many incredible memories that I've gotten to make 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:12.639 down there. Man, it's such a special place and an 0:02:12.639 --> 0:02:16.040 incredible resource. But now I'm gonna share with you a 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:18.919 clip from another fishing trip. I wasn't on this one. 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:22.480 A man named Chris Mcaluso was. And Chris had a 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:25.720 much different experience on his fishing trip than I did. 0:02:26.480 --> 0:02:29.480 Here's Chris, Well, we got the Pogy boats out here 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:30.600 right up against the beach. 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:33.320 They just strung the. 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:37.399 Per sane net which catches everything that swims, and now 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:45.880 they're pumping the whatever they caught. Pogy's you know, men, aiden, mullet, croakers, 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:49.600 speckled trout, white trout, redfish, whatever got caught in that 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:54.120 net they're pumping. It'll go in the hold, into the hold, 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:56.200 and then the big fish you're gonna get kicked off 0:02:56.200 --> 0:02:59.840 to the side, pretty much dead sharks, bull, redfish. 0:02:59.400 --> 0:02:59.920 Or jacks. 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:02.480 And right now they're pumping the water out of the 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:05.079 hole to make room for more men haden. And all 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:07.079 that water that's coming out of the boat right now 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:09.360 is just no oxygen in it at all. 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:10.960 They're pumping it here. 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:14.760 This water's hot, it's shallow, they're pumping it in here, 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:16.680 and when that no oxygen water comes out in here, 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:20.760 it's gonna kill everything there too. So just absolutely no 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:22.440 reason for those boats to be this close to this 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:26.239 beach well and about four feet of water at the most, 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:28.080 and we are, I mean, they're less than one hundred 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:30.519 yards from us right now, about the length of a 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:33.920 football field, and we're twenty five yards off this beach, 0:03:33.960 --> 0:03:36.440 so they're less than two hundred yards from this beach, 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:39.920 a beach that, by the way, just got restored, just 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:42.680 got one hundred and twenty million dollars invested in it 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:45.520 to restore it. And you can clearly see this big 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:48.920 boat when he's under power, it's chewing up these sandbars 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:51.720 and chewing up the surf very clearly. 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:52.080 See that. 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:01.600 We're gonna hear from Chris later. But before we go 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:04.680 any further, the stage has to be set. Two different 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:07.480 fishing trips off the Louisiana coast that they were conveying 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:11.800 very different experiences. The biggest difference was the presence of 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:15.000 the poggy boat operating close proximity to where Chris was 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:17.760 trying to fish. And we're going to dive off into 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:21.359 that subject, but before we all need to understand just 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:25.560 exactly what these poggy boats or the min haden fishing industry, 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:29.440 as it's more formally known actually is and heads up. 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:31.840 If you're a visual learner like I am, you can 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:34.600 see the video of everything I'm about to describe on 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:39.279 the YouTube version of this episode. Let's dive in the Golf. 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:43.040 Min Hayden perse Sane fishery has existed since the late 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:46.440 eighteen hundreds and is the largest commercial fishing in the 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:49.760 Gulf and the second largest in the United States in 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:54.800 terms of total landings. Landings peaked around one million metric. 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:56.520 Tons in the nineteen eighties and has. 0:04:56.440 --> 0:04:59.719 Averaged around half a million metric tons over the last decade. 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:04.000 Over ninety percent of that occurs off the coast of Louisiana. 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:07.560 A Minhagen or a pogi, as the more locally called, 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:11.359 is a small, oily fleshed fish. They're bright silver in 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:14.400 color and have a distinct black spot right behind their 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:17.200 gill opening. They are a flat fish with a deeply 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:20.120 forked tail, and at full maturity they can weigh around 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:22.760 a pound and be about fifteen inches in length, So 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:25.760 a relatively small fish is what we're talking about here. 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:28.880 They can be found in coastal and estuary waters and 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:32.680 they're filter feeders, feeding primarily on plankton. They're also a 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:36.680 very important forage fish to several other predator fish species 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:39.960 such as redfish, kobia, dolphins. 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:40.240 And many others. 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:42.480 As far as the role they play for the menhaden 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:45.400 fishing industry, well, they're the life blood of it and 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:49.839 they're harvested for the production of fertilizers, animal feed, fish bait, 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:52.760 fish food, and since they're a huge source of Omega 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:56.400 three fatty acid, menhaden are also used in several human 0:05:56.440 --> 0:06:00.960 and animal supplements like fishhole pills for example. And for 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:03.560 the record, I want to put this out early on 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:06.520 at the front of this episode. I fully believe in 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:10.640 telling both sides of every story, regardless of how controversial 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:14.560 or my own personal beliefs or biases. You've reached Abram 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:17.120 Fisheries to the operator, Please press zero. 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:20.600 Thank you for calling it, Blue Empire. You're callings now 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:25.680 being forwarded. Please hold good hearty. 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:28.640 Uh yeah, I need to speak to the operator. 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:32.480 Please, no one's there today as the plants off today. 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:34.440 Okay, thank you very much. 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:38.160 So, just for the record, I have tried to get 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:41.320 a representative from the Menhaden fishing industry to talk to me. 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:45.560 I've called, I've sent emails. I even sent Facebook messages 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:48.480 and I was not told no, but I was never 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:52.479 responded to. So if anyone from the men Haden industry 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:54.400 is out there and wants to speak their truth on 0:06:54.440 --> 0:06:55.680 this issue. 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:56.280 I am all ears. 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:57.240 Get back to me. 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:03.000 Anyway, Let's get into it. To kick this off, I'm 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:05.280 driving straight to the source. I made a day trip 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:08.800 out of it, and now I'm driving into grandew Louisiana, 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:11.120 a tourist destination for Anglish. 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:11.280 Far and wide. 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:13.920 Wanted to come down here and experience some of the 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:17.720 world renowned inshore fishing that this place offers. The marshy 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:19.840 waters hug up to both sides of the road and 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:22.600 looking out into the distance, I can see several charter 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:26.040 fishing boats. Now to mention, driving past several folks that 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:28.400 are trying their luck fishing off the bank. As I 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:31.600 get into town, the roads are lined with stilt elevated 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:35.400 buildings whose height protects them from high water incidents. This 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:38.920 is a recreational fishing town through and through, and I'm 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:41.160 here to meet a man who has spent his whole 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:44.200 life not only appreciating this place, but has made his 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:46.760 living as a charter fishing guide. 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:50.480 My name is Keith Bergeron. I've been chartering out of 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:54.720 Grandell for since two thousand and four, twenty one years 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:58.480 going on twenty two. I won't be long. I've been 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:03.320 fishing all my life. There's no white saying like Florida 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:08.160 and Gulf Shores. It's brown saying. It's all natural beaches. 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:13.360 The wildlife is just abundant, and the fishing is extraordinary. 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:18.040 Anybody who's an outdoors person would come here and just 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:19.320 fall in love with this place. 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:23.240 So it was a passion for you, something that you 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:25.080 love to do long before it turned into. 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:28.560 Well, even as like a kid, I was always amazed 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:31.600 at how somebody could fish for a living, and I 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:34.320 always dreamed about it, I guess you could say, but 0:08:34.600 --> 0:08:40.000 never thought I could do it. And I started out 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:43.200 hoping I could do maybe thirty trips a year, ended 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:47.480 up doing like sixty. So the first year was just crazy. 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:53.120 Ever since then, it just it's been booming. I got 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:56.080 more business than I want. I gave a lot of 0:08:56.120 --> 0:08:59.719 trips away to other guides because I just wanted to 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:03.560 builds to come here, right even if I'm not fishing them. 0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:06.720 You just want to keep the area perpetuated. Yeah, that's 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:09.120 just if they can come here and enjoy theirselves. They'll 0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:13.720 come back and hopefully they'll call me again, and if 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:15.840 I'm available, take them. 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:19.280 Keith has a story and perspective that's rooted in love 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:22.320 and appreciation for this place that he calls home, as 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:25.640 well as countless hours spent on the water. I really 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:28.040 think you're going to enjoy hearing it. But before we do, 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:30.640 there's someone else y'all need to meet that shares some 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:32.720 strong similarities with Keith. 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:37.400 Shane Mayfield and I basically operate from portsalthat of Venice, Louisiana. 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:41.760 I haven't been doing it full time now since ninety six, 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:44.160 so I guess I'm coming up on thirty years. But 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:47.120 I did it before that too, all through college, and 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:49.400 you even a little bit when I was in high 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:50.840 school guiding. 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:53.840 God, yeah, how'd you get into that? 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:58.480 Long story short? My dad, he still does, run a 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:03.000 lodge for corporation down in Port Selfur, So that's kind 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:04.040 of how I got into it. 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:05.360 In high school. You know, I was working. 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:08.000 I'd worked there in the summers and my off time, 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:09.920 and then i'd take some of their customers help with 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:12.640 when they had groups coming in to go fishing. And 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:14.079 then I did that, you know. And then when I 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:16.600 went to college, I you know, I'd come home on 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:19.040 the weekends and fish and you know, put a little 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:19.840 money in my pocket. 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:20.360 Sure. 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:22.240 And then I got out of college and I went 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:25.280 to work for a consulting firm. I have an environmental. 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:27.760 Degree, and I just like to fish better. 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:29.760 So I only worked about a year and a half 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:32.800 and then I quit my job. And I always tell 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:34.920 my customers. When I told my mother I was gonna quit, 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:36.920 she said, you're gonna do what I said. Yeah, I'm 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:39.079 a guide full time. And I say, I wish you'd 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:41.560 taken that blackground skillet and beat me upside the head 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:43.559 with it, because I don't know what I was thinking. 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:46.200 But all joking aside, it's been it's been good to me. 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:48.480 Yeah, yeah, see you still like it. 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:51.079 Like I love taking people fishing. I mean, I done 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:53.840 caught my share. If I never catch another red fish 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:56.320 again in my life, I done caught way more than 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:58.680 most people ever will. So you know, I just like 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:01.360 taking people fishing. It's what I do, and I've been 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:02.320 doing a long time. 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:06.400 Both Keith and Shane are Louisiana natives. If their accents 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:10.040 don't immediately give that away as well as veteran charter 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:13.240 fishing guides, which is a valuable perspective seeing is one 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:16.120 of the big topics in question is the significant amount 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:19.000 of conflicts that seems to be happening between the pogy 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:22.160 boats and charter and recreational fishermen. I want to hear 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:25.040 some of their personal experiences with these pogy boats as 0:11:25.120 --> 0:11:26.640 well as their thoughts on them. 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:30.400 They've always been in this area and it's only certain 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:33.559 times of a year where the pogy really get abundant 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:38.120 on the beach. They start schooling and they might be 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:41.240 laying eggs. I don't know their process of polgi itself, 0:11:41.240 --> 0:11:45.760 but I know late summer, when it's hot, we see 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:49.240 a lot more polgy boat action. They're not scared to 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:53.680 get in there and get on the beach and disrupt 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:59.360 the fishermen. They yeah, the pogi boats itself, they're all 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:02.040 about catching them pogies. You know, it don't matter what 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:05.720 it takes who they're going to mess up your fishing spot. 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:11.080 They gone after them pogis. So it got to where 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:16.080 they were catching so many pogies in a drag that 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:18.960 they had a net busted on the beach right here 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:21.679 in front of grand Isle. I don't think they were 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:26.440 very far out, and the net when it ripped, all 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:30.840 those dead pogies were just floating and they all washed 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:32.960 up on the beach in grand Isle. And this is 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:37.360 a tourist place, so the town had to deal with 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:42.200 the stench. And I'm talking about three four feet wide, 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:46.920 six st eight inches deep, just dead fish. So we 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:51.679 had a bad issue here, and grand Isle ended up 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:56.360 creating a buffer zone which was passed by law, where 0:12:56.400 --> 0:12:59.200 they had to stay away from Grandal for three at 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:00.439 least three miles away. 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:02.280 Gotcha, gotcha. 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:05.319 So before that there was no buffers on. They could 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:06.440 come in wherever they wanted to. 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:08.680 Yeah, that was pretty much free rains. 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:10.680 How long ago did they pass their buffers on? 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:13.760 You know, it's been about two years now, so. 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:14.480 Not that long. 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:17.280 No, Wow, I would have thought it had been. I 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:19.800 was expecting to say, ten to fifteen years ago, something 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:20.040 like that. 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:23.199 Now, before this, two or three years ago, they were 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:27.440 able to come in as close as they wanted. I mean, 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:30.720 the boats are kicking up sand. That's how shallow they get. 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:35.600 These nets are. I'm gonna just guess and say they 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:39.960 probably fished fifteen feet of water easy. That's how long 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:43.760 they stretched down from the bottom to the surface. So 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:48.360 if you're in eight six eight feet of water or less, 0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:53.480 they're catching everything in sight. Everything in that circle is 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:55.040 being trapped in that net. 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:56.640 It's not just pogies in and up in. 0:13:57.040 --> 0:14:04.520 No, they got speckled trout, they got flounders, redfish in order, 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:11.000 even the bull reds, jack Reville dolphin, and they catching torporen. 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:16.680 The first talks about making some areas restricted to menhaden 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:20.200 fishing started up in twenty twenty three, However, there was 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:22.920 no formal law put in place until the early part 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:26.600 of twenty twenty four. These laws established a coast wide 0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:30.120 buffer zone of one half mile and a one mile 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:33.960 buffer zone at Grand Terry, Elmers Island and Holly Beach, 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:36.920 as well as a three mile buffer zone at Grand Isle. 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:40.680 These buffer zones were put in place due to several factors, 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:45.240 most notably after eighteen separate fish spills accounting for over 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:47.920 two point five million waist in min Hayden and at 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:52.880 least several hundred dead breeding sized redfish. This all occurred 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:56.080 in twenty twenty three alone. Some of these filed up 0:14:56.080 --> 0:15:00.560 popular beaches and seemingly increased the number of conflicts between 0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:04.480 recreational anglers and boaters with the menhaden boats. 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:05.600 There was also a. 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:09.239 Significant amount of public outcry from local citizens and sportsmen 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:12.080 about the potential damage that this method of fishing could 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:15.720 be causing to the shallow waters, the fishery, and the habitat. 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:18.520 I want to get Shane's take on this as well. 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:19.640 I'll say this. 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:23.480 So, for the first time in thirty years or thirty something, 0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:27.520 whatever it was, the LDWF they had done a stock assessment, 0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:31.200 the first they had done in a long, long, long time. 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:34.040 And then they got the results and they said, we 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:36.760 got a redfish problem. In other words, we don't have 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:39.000 the numbers we'd like to see. We got to do 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:42.280 something about it. Well, they had meetings and meetings, and 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:44.840 it's always a slow process when you're going through that, 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:49.800 and finally they came up and they recommended, Okay, we're 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:53.120 going to drop it from five reds to four reds. 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:56.440 We're going to go from sixteen to eighteen inch minimum, 0:15:56.760 --> 0:16:00.280 nothing over twenty seven inches. So that's what they did 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:04.360 because there was a problem, right, I mean, they've taken 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:06.560 that twenty seven inch fish like used to be. We 0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:09.880 could keep one, you know, a recreational anglers and will look, 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:12.520 we never really did keep them. They're not good to eat, 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:14.960 you know. If people want a trophy, I mean, back 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:16.760 in the day, somebody might want to keep one to 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:18.760 mount it. But now you can get a replica. You know, 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:21.360 you measure and girth and take a picture and you 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:24.200 can get a replica that'll last forever. Well, they cut 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:26.320 that out, they said, okay, you can't keep anything over 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:29.520 twenty seven inches, no more for recreational charter anglers, what 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:33.640 have you. Well, yet the poge industry they catch I 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:35.960 don't know. I can't say a definite number. I mean, 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:37.600 I don't know. I'm not on those boats. 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:38.320 I don't see. 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:43.480 But it's incomprehensible to say that when I'm drifting through 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:46.440 schools of men Hayden, and on a good day with 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:49.480 three angles on the boat, we'll catch say forty to 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:52.960 fifty of those things or more, you know, And I'm 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:55.640 drifting in a bay boat with popping corks. But when 0:16:55.640 --> 0:16:58.920 a boat pulls up with a big persing and that's 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:02.000 a huge school of Hayden that I know bull reds 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:05.000 are in, there's no possible way they can't be catching 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:07.439 them and killing them. I mean, it's just a nature 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:11.200 of that, the way they fish. And if the recreational 0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:15.240 angler can't keep any mature redfish because it's supposed to 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:19.399 be bad because of the chaines in the fishery, well, 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:21.639 if they're killing as many as I know they're killing, 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:22.440 it can't be good. 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:26.840 Fascinating stuff from Keith and shame and believe me, we're 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:29.120 not through hearing from these guys. I feel like we're 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:31.480 just getting into the meat of their stories. But I 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:34.040 feel like now is also a crucial time to kick 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:37.160 it back over to Chris Mcaluso. You remember him from 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:39.800 his fishing clip early in the episode with the pogy 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:42.960 boat operating close to him. Chris is the director of 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:46.800 the Center for Marine Fisheries and Mississippi River Program director 0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:51.400 for the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership. He works on conservation 0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:55.439 as well as advancing habitat restoration efforts across the Gulf 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:59.720 and improving federal fisheries management law and policy. Chris is 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:01.959 going to give us a more detailed view around the 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:05.760 Menhaden fishing industry and why it's such a cause for concern, 0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:08.520 and he's going to accomplish this by telling us about 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:12.440 a first of its kind, comprehensive study on the minhaden 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:16.160 industry that was just published earlier this year. Quick heads up, 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:19.000 you're gonna hear the term by catch. By catch is 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:22.760 unwanted fish or other marine creatures that get caught during 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:26.560 commercial fishing for a different species. So, for example, a 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:29.159 bull of redfish caught in a pogy boat net is 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:29.720 by catch. 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:30.919 Here's Chris. 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:33.760 There have been studies in the past, they were not 0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:37.440 nearly as thorough as the study that was released earlier 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:40.080 this year and was conducted in the twenty twenty four 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:42.679 fishing season. And I think that was part of the 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:46.520 problem is that when fishermen and I know and charterboat 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:50.080 captains you know, were starting to call me, you know, 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:52.919 eight ten years ago in complaining about what they were 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:55.679 seeing from the pogy boats, and it really ramped up 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:58.560 in the last five to six years. We just had 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:01.399 a number of big spill. The boats were just getting 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:04.800 closer and closer to some of these very popular fishing areas, 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:06.680 and people were starting to shoot a lot of video 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:08.919 of it, you know. When we would talk about it 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:11.680 with fisheries regulators, so we would go to Wildlife Fisheries 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:15.840 Commission or talk about it with lawmakers. The data had 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:18.240 big gaps in it, you know, and so you could 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:21.240 draw a lot of different conclusions about just how many 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:24.960 fish from a by catch perspective were being killed, you know. 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:27.080 And the number I would use was, Okay, well, they're 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:30.639 allowed up to five percent of their total volume to 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:35.200 be bycatch, and if they're harvesting a billion pounds of 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:37.520 men hate in a year, well five percent of that's 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:41.320 fifty million pounds of additional dead fish. 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:42.920 But we didn't know those. 0:19:42.760 --> 0:19:45.919 Things for certain, Like we were just putting out the 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:49.560 numbers that were in the previous by catch study, which 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:52.840 had pretty big gaps in it, Like nobody had ever 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:56.920 really estimated how many bull redfish, for instance, were being killed, 0:19:56.960 --> 0:20:00.000 how many croaker were being killed, because it was just 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:02.920 it's too difficult for researchers or you know, biologists or 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:06.280 fisheries managers to get down into those nets. They just 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:09.800 didn't have the technology that it took to count all 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:12.119 of the things that were coming onto that boat and 0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:14.440 going into the boat and the things that were being 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:18.080 kicked back off. Nobody had taken a nearly as close 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:20.840 a look as was taken last year during that study. 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:24.680 Before Chris dives into the details of this study, allow 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:26.760 me to read to you some of the numbers that 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:31.879 came back as a result. The twenty twenty four bycatch 0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:35.359 study of the Industrial Gulf men Haden Fishery indicates the 0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:41.000 following approximately twenty two thousand breeding sized redfish, eighty one 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:45.600 million croker, twenty five million sand trout or white trout 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:48.959 as they're commonly known, in forty or more other species, 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:53.399 including black drum, sea trout, cownos rays were all observed 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:55.720 and counted in those poggy nets. 0:20:57.200 --> 0:20:59.080 But yeah, it's just extraordinary when you look at some 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:00.800 of the other numbers they I mean, you know, the 0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:04.040 redfish part is what jumps off the page because it's 0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:08.639 a game fish. Louisiana recently took action to make it 0:21:08.680 --> 0:21:13.080