1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Worrying. Today's episode contains spoilers for the Ted Chiang story 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: The Merchant and the Alchemist's Gate, which appears in his 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: collection of short stories Exhalation. Be warned. Hello, my name 4 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: is Jason Concepcion. Hell, I'm Rosie Night, and welcome back 5 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: to x ray Vision, the podcast where we dive deep 6 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 1: India raved shows, movies, comics and pop culture. Coming from 7 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:40,879 Speaker 1: my Heart podcast or or bring you three huge episodes 8 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: a week plus news. 9 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 2: In today's episode, it's book club again. We're back. We're 10 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 2: back in the bookshop. We're back in the x ray 11 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 2: Vision book Club already and I love it because I'm 12 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 2: a book lover. And this week we are talking about 13 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 2: a really fantastic story that I was so excited to 14 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 2: see was already a fave with many people in our discord, 15 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 2: The March and the alchemist Gate by Ted Chang. So 16 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 2: let's talk about it. 17 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: Let's do a quick recap of the Wonderful Merchant in 18 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 1: the Alchemist Gate. First, this story was first published in 19 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, when it won the Hugo and 20 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: the Nebula for Best just casually casually, as Ted often 21 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: seems to do, and it concerns a gentleman named Fuad 22 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: given a boss and it is told from his first 23 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: person perspective. He is informing the governor of the region 24 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: about this interesting and mysterious shop owner who he has 25 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: encountered over the years. Now this shop owner and then 26 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: tells about the kind of interesting and seemingly random circumstances 27 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 1: by which he was He just kind of wanders into 28 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: this gentleman's shop. He's looking for a gift and he's 29 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: looking around, and then he comes to this new shopkeeper 30 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: who is in the bazaar, who has these incredible. 31 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 2: Colectic and strange objects. 32 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: Eclectic like machine fountains. 33 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 2: And nightingale and nightingale. 34 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, clockwork nightingales and things like that. And he asks 35 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: the gentleman, like, where do the stuff come from? He's like, oh, 36 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: I made it. Either I made it or my assistant 37 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: made it under my direction. And you want to see 38 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: something really cool, check this out. And he shows him 39 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: a small ring that he puts his hand through it 40 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 1: the merchant and then nothing happens, but there appears to 41 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: be nothing. There's nothing comes out the other side, Like 42 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: he just puts his arm through the hoop, but it 43 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: doesn't appear on the other side, and so even is thinking, oh, 44 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: what a wonderful magic trick, and then he pulls his 45 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: arm out, and then like twenty seconds later, the merchant's 46 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: hand appears now out of the other side, even though 47 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: his arm is not extended through the hoop. This is 48 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: very strange, and the shopkeeper explains this is the gate 49 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: of seconds. Through some process that he has mastered, he 50 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 1: is able to like allow time to like pool on 51 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,959 Speaker 1: one side of this hoop and flow swiftly through the 52 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: other side, so that when you put your arm through 53 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: on the left side, it doesn't appear out of the 54 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: right side until twenty seconds later. And the guy's Ebben's like, 55 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: oh my god, you know, like, okay, still incredible magic trick. Wow, 56 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: that's so fake amazing. Yeah, yeah, he right. He grasps 57 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: his arm like all of that stuff. He touches it, 58 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 1: but it's weird. And then he's like, you want to 59 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: see something really really amazing. Check this out, and he 60 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: takes him to the back and he shows him a 61 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: bigger version of that through which on one side you're 62 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: able to go back much further, like if you stick 63 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: your arm through or you go through, you go back 64 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: in time to as in a loop, right, as if 65 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: in a loop, and Aban is like, I don't believe you, 66 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: and he's like, well, let me. 67 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 2: Tell you you really understand either. He's sort of like, okay, and. 68 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: We don't understand either, right, And then the shopkeeper then 69 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: proceeds to tell him three different kind of tales about 70 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: people whose experience is going through this gate of years 71 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: and the things that they were able to learn about 72 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: themselves or accomplish. And so he's like, well, if you 73 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 1: want to go back through the gate of years, you can, 74 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: and he's like, well, let me think about it, and 75 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: then eventually he does, and he goes back for a 76 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,840 Speaker 1: very specific reason, which is that he wants to He 77 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: was in love with a woman years ago, twenty years ago, 78 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: and they had an argument when he was like leaving 79 00:04:55,720 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: for business, and while he was away, she died in 80 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 1: the collapse of a mosque, and all he's been able 81 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,840 Speaker 1: to think about in the years since is how how 82 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:11,119 Speaker 1: hurt she was by his words, which were unfair, and 83 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: how now she died not thinking that he didn't care 84 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,039 Speaker 1: for her anymore, and then he loved her. So he's 85 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: desperate to go back and tell her that that's not 86 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 1: the truth. He doesn't manage to get there, but he 87 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:30,239 Speaker 1: does learn the messenger who arrives at his younger self's 88 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: home that her last thoughts were of him. 89 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that she loved him and kind of forgave him. 90 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 2: And yeah, it's really really really really sad. 91 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: Way, Yes, and I just love this story. What were 92 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 1: your thoughts upon reading the story? 93 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 2: I absolutely love this story. I love a short story, 94 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 2: saying I think Ted Chang's one of the best to 95 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 2: do a short story. This specific story is very special 96 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 2: to me because it reminds me and invokes the feeling 97 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 2: of reading Grim's fairy tales when I was a kid. 98 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 2: I feel, I think quite specific to England. A book 99 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 2: that most of the kids I knew read that was 100 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 2: called A Necklace of rain Drops by Joan Akin, and 101 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 2: that story is about a girl who has given a 102 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 2: necklace of rain drops, each one on a chain by 103 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 2: her godfather, who is the North Wind. And that story 104 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 2: captured my imagination so much as a kid and made 105 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 2: me love stories. And this gives me that same feeling. 106 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 2: This story feels timeless. If someone told you this story 107 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 2: was from, you know, two hundred years ago, you'd believe 108 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 2: them and you'd think, wow, this person invented the concept 109 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 2: of time travel. It just blew me away doing another 110 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 2: deep read on it, and I was so I've always 111 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 2: just loved this story because it feels like a fantastical 112 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:54,599 Speaker 2: kind of fairy tale. But what I loved that I 113 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 2: did not expect was our discord was so inspired by 114 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 2: reading this story to about different forms of time travel 115 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 2: and how time travel happens, and different fictional versions of 116 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 2: time travel. And I just thought that was so interesting 117 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 2: because this story always kind of sweeps me away, so 118 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 2: I don't really think about the mechanics. It's very much 119 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 2: like a vibess thing, like yeah, sure, the Gate of 120 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 2: seconds and the Gate of years, of course. But I 121 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 2: loved how kind of granular it made people get in 122 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 2: the discord about their preferred versions of like multiverses and 123 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 2: realities and time travel. And I think that the fact 124 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 2: that this story can do both that can inspire kind 125 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 2: of a granular scientific conversation that's also about genre and 126 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 2: about tropes, but also still make you feel like you're 127 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 2: a little kid reading a story before bedtime. That's a 128 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 2: really powerful kind of duality that Ted puts across it. 129 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 2: In this book, I mean in the story. 130 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: I completely agree with you, and I feel I had 131 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: the same response the first time I read this story 132 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: years ago, which is that it made me feel like 133 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: that kind of wonderful feeling when you read something like 134 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: in when you're in school, when you're in English class 135 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: and you read something that you're like, wow, this is 136 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: this is good. It had it does have that. In 137 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: the way that it's written in first person. It evoked 138 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: in me feelings of reading you know, like Gatsby for 139 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: the first time, or Huck Finn or these kind of 140 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: classic English class books that you would read, or you know, 141 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: an incident in al Creek, these like strange stories written 142 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: in the first person. And it's having read a lot 143 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: of Ted's work, it's also very unlike a lot of 144 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: it's unique within his within his oove. 145 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:41,560 Speaker 2: Like it feels to me almost like you could believe 146 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 2: that Ted had had this experience himself and it inspired 147 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 2: him to write a completely different style of story because 148 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 2: it is really unique. And as we will when we 149 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:53,199 Speaker 2: get into use of questions, a lot of people were 150 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 2: interested in why we particularly picked this story, and I 151 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 2: thought that was really cool too, because I like it 152 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 2: when we can do something that's a little bit unexpected. 153 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 2: But I do think this is I love reading this book. 154 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 2: I don't even really like reading out loud, but I 155 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 2: like reading this story out loud because it has such 156 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 2: a lyrical quality to it, and it has so many 157 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 2: fantastic lines. I mean, the last line of the story 158 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 2: is so wonderful and so kind of heartbreaking and so 159 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 2: true after this story that has been absolutely fantastical, and 160 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 2: I think to be able to do that is the 161 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 2: greatest trick of a writer. Can you sweep someone up 162 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 2: in a story that makes them feel like they're in 163 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 2: another world, but at the end put a truth that 164 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 2: is so real that it immediately brings them back to 165 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 2: their life. I think that is like such a talent. 166 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 2: And I really loved revisiting the story. 167 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to say that. I think part 168 00:09:55,040 --> 00:10:00,079 Speaker 1: of what I really respond to is it's structured. It 169 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: It is structured like a classic fairy tale in that 170 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,679 Speaker 1: it feels as if there is a lesson somewhere in there, 171 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: even though I'm unsure of what that lesson might be. 172 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 1: When the merchant is telling him in the Three Different 173 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 1: Tales about the three different approaches to using the gate 174 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: like one. You know, there's a gentleman who wants to know, 175 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 1: you know, what they're going to be able to accomplish 176 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: in the future. Will they be successful? They desperately want 177 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 1: to be successful, and he's able to do that, but 178 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: only through this kind of generous humility. And then there's 179 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:34,680 Speaker 1: another person who goes back, who does it a little 180 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: bit more selfishly, but learns something about the kind of 181 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: cost of selfishness and how it can you know, poison 182 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: love and happiness in a relationship. And then you have 183 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: this third story that's a very interesting one in which 184 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: three versions of the same woman conspire to save the 185 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 1: woman's husband, Ben's life, essentially, and it feels like each 186 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 1: of them. You know, that feels like very Grim's fairy 187 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: tale in that it feels like there's a parable there, 188 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: even though I am I. Part of what's so fun 189 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: about this story is the mysteriousness of it. I don't 190 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,079 Speaker 1: know what the lesson is, and I'm not sure how 191 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 1: the time travel works, but thinking about it and trying 192 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: to piece together what the lesson might be is part 193 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,679 Speaker 1: of the fun of it. You mentioned the time travel aspect. 194 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 1: Part of what is so fascinating about this story is 195 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: This is a time travel story in which you can 196 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: go back in time. You can meet yourself either in 197 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,079 Speaker 1: the future or in the past, depending on which way 198 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: you go through the thing. But you can't change anything, 199 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: even if apparently you tried to. Everything will be as 200 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: it was. There's a h and Ibn is very confused 201 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: about this, and he asks, you know, the merchant like, 202 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: so wait, wait when we At one point, he's like 203 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,959 Speaker 1: figuring out that the merchant must have known who he 204 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: was when he seemingly wandered into his shop for what 205 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: he believes is the first time, because after having gone 206 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: through the gates, he realizes that the merchant knows a 207 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: version of him like knows and must have known that 208 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:29,079 Speaker 1: he would come here. And the merchant says, coincidence and 209 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: intention are two sides of a tapestry. You may find 210 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 1: one like more agreeable to look at, but you can't 211 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: say that one is true and the other is false. 212 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 1: And Ebn keeps trying to ask, well, like, so if 213 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: I go twenty years in the future and I see 214 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: that I'm alive, then could I theoretically enter like every 215 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: battle that happens between now and then, knowing that I 216 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 1: won't die and like, and the merchant never answers, but 217 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 1: they never really answers, but it certainly appears by all 218 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: the by the way these stories kind of play out 219 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: that kind of yes, although also it's also heavily implied 220 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:11,079 Speaker 1: that someone who thought like that would not wander into 221 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: the merchant's story anyway exactly. So it's got that wonderful, 222 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:20,559 Speaker 1: mysterious feeling where everything's very clear. It's not like this 223 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: is an ambiguous story. It's played out in this prose, 224 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 1: this fairy tale, very simple, very very clear prose, but 225 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: there's a mystery to it that rises from the story 226 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: that is just wonderful to think about. 227 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I totally agree. And I also love In the 228 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 2: Times of the Grims fairy tales, and this could definitely 229 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 2: be a coincidence, but I doubt it because I feel 230 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 2: like Ted Schang is a student of stories as well 231 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 2: as a great writer of them. But I love the 232 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 2: I think part of the reason that it feels so 233 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 2: Grim's fairy Tales is the three stories, because in Grim's 234 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 2: fairy Tales, so many of the story are in threes. 235 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 2: The three little Men in the Wood, the three Spinners, 236 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 2: the Wishing Table, the gold ass and the cudgel in 237 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 2: the sack three, the three brothers, one of the rare 238 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 2: ones with like a happy ending, the three feathers, like 239 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 2: there is something about the number three, and of course 240 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 2: the idea of like our brains remember things in tryads, 241 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 2: which is like something that has been kind of thought 242 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 2: for a long time. The will like it's so interesting, 243 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 2: and I think that's really what makes it feel like 244 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 2: it's that classic fairy tale story. Is it's the stories 245 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 2: within a story, and also the fact that there's three 246 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 2: of them at each person there's a different lesson, And Yeah, 247 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 2: I just thought this was so wonderful and I was 248 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 2: really stoked to see that it was just as kind 249 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 2: of inspiring and interesting to people as it was when 250 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 2: we covered dead ever one again. And I think that's 251 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 2: really really cool. 252 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break and then we will jump 253 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: to our discussion of some of the themes and questions 254 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: from our discus. Okay, we're back. Let's think about the questions. 255 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: Let's let's let's answer some questions. Jos Wick one in 256 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: our discord, do you prefer multiversal time travel stories or 257 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 1: do you prefer a more deterministic approach? Is presented here. 258 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: Do you think our current media favors one or the other? 259 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: I think this is this is a great question because 260 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 1: I think the thing that really tickled me about this 261 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: version is that it is obviously heavily suggestive of fate 262 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: and destiny, which I think is something that is, you know, 263 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: obviously a topic that is will forever be fascinating to people. 264 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: But the way that it does it suggests that even 265 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: though the past and the future determined, there are so 266 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: many mysteries to be discovered in the way that things 267 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: intersect with the set out path of a person's life, 268 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: that the mysteries are still boundless. And I think about 269 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: that as particularly in the Tail, where the three different 270 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: versions of the of the Man's lover helped to save 271 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: him from the bandits who want to rob him of 272 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: his necklace, like and then he was completely unaware of this, 273 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: like when about his life and didn't understand that this 274 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: had happened, And it makes you think, you know, it's 275 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: very chicken in the egg, like okay, so then how 276 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: did it start? Like who was the first? It's just 277 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: it's so fun to think about, and so I think 278 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: I prefer this, but I think it's harder to do. 279 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: I think this is much more difficult to do it 280 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 1: this way. 281 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, we This like really inspired a great conversation. Xalaton 282 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 2: actually responded in discord and said, I don't personally have 283 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 2: a preference. I think they can both be great storytelling vehicles, 284 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 2: but I absolutely think that currently the non deterministic kind 285 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 2: favorite Ingredia and I agree. Also, I think Aboo brought 286 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 2: up a great point when helping us with this planning doc, 287 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:11,679 Speaker 2: which was does going through the Alchemist's Gate lock you 288 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 2: into events? Like? Does your life have more potential paths 289 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:17,400 Speaker 2: before you walk through the gate, Because once you walk 290 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 2: through the gate, then you know what's going to happen. 291 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 2: So does that mean that you have kind of complied 292 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 2: with fate or been complicit with fate to then choose 293 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 2: a path by going through the gate? I think that's 294 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 2: really interesting. And I also think personally the way that 295 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 2: they handle the gate here and don't explain it away 296 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 2: really reminded me of that very famous line on from 297 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 2: Loopah Yes, like starring Bruce Willis where they get don't 298 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:46,879 Speaker 2: worry about it doesn't make sense, like they basically just 299 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:48,439 Speaker 2: like they're trying to explain it and then they're like, 300 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 2: it doesn't really make sense, like don't think about it, 301 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 2: you can't explain it. And I love a story like 302 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 2: this that actually gives the audience enough trust to just say, hey, 303 00:17:57,359 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 2: just jump into this story with us. This is like 304 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 2: Aladdin's Lamp. You don't ask how did the genie get 305 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 2: in the lamp or how did the lamp get made. 306 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:06,919 Speaker 2: You just find the lamp, you rub it, and a 307 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 2: genie comes out. And I think this has that same power. Hilariously, 308 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 2: I am obviously a multiverse lover, but I think it's 309 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 2: very interesting and I would love to know and explore 310 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 2: why multiverses became so popular so quickly and also died 311 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,920 Speaker 2: in the kind of public favor so quickly too, because 312 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 2: in storytelling, multiverses have been around for decades and have 313 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 2: been a beloved kind of way of telling stories, especially 314 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 2: in comic books. But when it came to putting them 315 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 2: on screen, I think that the studio version of it 316 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:43,120 Speaker 2: is not as mysterious and entangled and interesting and strange, 317 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,199 Speaker 2: and it doesn't necessarily open up the same opportunities that 318 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 2: reading a story like this does, or thinking about a 319 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 2: multiverse in a comic book does, so I think maybe 320 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:52,959 Speaker 2: that was it. But yeah, it's very interesting, and I 321 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 2: love that this story, which to me is very much 322 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 2: in that fairy tale reign, really inspired that kind of 323 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,160 Speaker 2: discussion in the discord. 324 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 1: Thinking about what is the deterministic or the more open 325 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,640 Speaker 1: ended version of time travel. I do think that this 326 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 1: way is it's harder to execute this type of story 327 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: because it is more puzzle boxy, right, the pieces must fit. 328 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 1: But I think that one of the things that really 329 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: is so wonderful about this story is even though after 330 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 1: having read this story many times, I'm not sure how 331 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 1: time travel here really works, despite that, the merchant explains 332 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 1: it like he gives you three stories and shows you 333 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 1: like puts the arm through and like grab my hand 334 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 1: on the other side, like it does all these things 335 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: to show to show you how it works. And then 336 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,919 Speaker 1: he gives this explanation where he basically says, and this 337 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: is recounted. Ibbin is recounting this now secondhand to the governor, 338 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: and he's basically saying that he searched for tiny pores 339 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 1: in the skin of reality, like the whole that worms 340 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,879 Speaker 1: bore and wood, and how upon finding one, he was 341 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: able to expand it and stretch it in a way 342 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: that a glass blower turns a dollop of molten glass 343 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: into a long neck pipe, and how he then allowed 344 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 1: time to flow like water at one mouth, while causing 345 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: it to thicken like syrup at the other. And then 346 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: it been continues. I confess, I don't really understand what 347 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: he's talking. And you know, here's the thing about humans, 348 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 1: Like we're incredible tool builders. We've built these incredible machines 349 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:35,400 Speaker 1: and computers. We don't know what the implications of the 350 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: things that we create are or how they work. And 351 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,199 Speaker 1: I think there's something magical in the way that this 352 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 1: story presents this merchant as having created this thing but 353 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 1: also not really being able to explain it. Yeah, that 354 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: feels very human to me, Like I created this magical thing. 355 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: I don't really. 356 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 2: Fully know how human because if you think about things 357 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 2: like how science is essentially all theoretical until it is, 358 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 2: you know, proven, so so much of what humans do 359 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 2: is they create immense telescopes to look into the sky 360 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 2: to study things that they don't understand, black holes, you know, 361 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 2: dark matter, stuff like that. And I love the way 362 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 2: that here, this time machine is essentially the same like, yes, 363 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:23,199 Speaker 2: someone created it, but they kind of didn't really know. 364 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 2: This gate creates seconds. This gate delays you by twenty years. 365 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 2: You know. I like the mystery and I think it leans. 366 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 2: It's the reason we're still talking about this story like 367 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 2: almost you know, twenty years later, is because there is 368 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 2: a mystery to it, and it was a really big 369 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 2: talking point. And I would love to ask you, Jason, 370 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 2: because you gave a great answer in the discord. But 371 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:47,640 Speaker 2: Tony Stark of winter Fell, in the Discord wrote, I 372 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,359 Speaker 2: love both of Chang's collections of short stories. I just 373 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:52,440 Speaker 2: reread with this one, and it's not my favorite of 374 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:54,400 Speaker 2: his stories, but it is the one I remember best 375 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 2: from exhalations, I think I most appreciate this sort of 376 00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 2: grounded approach to time travel, and that there's no folk 377 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 2: given to how the dooy was created. And then he asks, 378 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:08,400 Speaker 2: which was a resigning question in the Discord, why I'm 379 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 2: curious why you will chose this story of his So, Jason, 380 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 2: you gave a great answer. What was the incentive for 381 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 2: us choosing this one? 382 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 1: For me? Again, I think it's unique amongst his work, 383 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 1: which you know, I love Ted's work, but it's unique 384 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 1: in the sense that it's the one that feels the 385 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 1: most timeless to me. You mentioned like it feels like 386 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 1: it could have been written in the eighteen hundreds, and 387 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,640 Speaker 1: I think that's true. There's nothing in it, the use 388 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: of language, the themes that don't feel like something that 389 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: people won't be interested in years from now, and certainly 390 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 1: we're not interested in you know, we're clearly interested in 391 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 1: years ago. And it has always made me feel in 392 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 1: a way that his other stories, which I also find wonderful, 393 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:58,159 Speaker 1: have have not really the way I felt when I 394 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 1: read a really good story when I was a kid, 395 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 1: Like when I first read you know, A Wrinkle in 396 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 1: Time and was like, oh my god, this is like 397 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 1: what is this is mysterious and weird, like what is happening? 398 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 1: And it's told so simply without any kind of flourishes 399 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 1: or the kind of like postmodern literary flourishes frank, you know, 400 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,120 Speaker 1: fragmented narrative, any of that stuffs told in a very 401 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,160 Speaker 1: very straightforward way. And yet every time I've read it, 402 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: I feel like I picked something else out that I'm like, oh, okay, 403 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 1: here's another thing to think about about how this how 404 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: this time travel mechanic might work. And I also think 405 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: there is a note of because it's about fate and 406 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:45,680 Speaker 1: destiny and predestination and living your life in a and 407 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 1: suggesting that there is great value to live your life 408 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:56,119 Speaker 1: in the most generous way possible. It feels more hopeful 409 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: than a lot of his other stories, and those are 410 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: the things I respond to. Yeah, what about you? You know, 411 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:05,199 Speaker 1: why do you respond to this? 412 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:06,920 Speaker 2: I was going to say, like I do. I love 413 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:08,879 Speaker 2: that all the points you grow up, and I totally 414 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,120 Speaker 2: agree with you. I think it's essentially our best example 415 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,679 Speaker 2: of a modern fairy tale that doesn't try to be 416 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 2: a fairy tale and instead uses the language and lyrical 417 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 2: nature of storytelling to put you in that feeling. But 418 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,439 Speaker 2: I think the coolest thing and the reason that we 419 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 2: picked this book is you know, you suggested it. We 420 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 2: were coming up with books for post Ed Ever Born Again, 421 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 2: which was our debut book club, and I went, oh, 422 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 2: I love that story, and we went, oh, I love 423 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 2: that story, and we were like, Okay, I guess this 424 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 2: is the next book. And I think that's one of 425 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 2: the most fun things is Yeah, there are deep reasons 426 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,879 Speaker 2: that we love this story that kind of guided us 427 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 2: to it, but also it was just a collective love 428 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,479 Speaker 2: of this story and the impact it had on us 429 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,639 Speaker 2: the same way that we wanted we pick anything that 430 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 2: we cover. So yeah, I thought that was a really 431 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 2: cool discussion point, and I was glad you were able 432 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 2: to kind of surprise people, because yeah, there are going 433 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,440 Speaker 2: to be comic books, but there are going to be stories, 434 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 2: and as we move forward, you know, keep letting us 435 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,199 Speaker 2: know what you like, because we are hoping to do 436 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:14,119 Speaker 2: kind of longer books and maybe multiple episodes about the 437 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 2: same book as we kind of read through it altogether. 438 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 2: But yeah, I think this was such a cool, unexpected 439 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 2: choice and I love it. And as our last question 440 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 2: from the discord, because I really thought this was a 441 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 2: fun question. First of far said, you know, I really 442 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,439 Speaker 2: enjoyed the framing of being presented to the king and 443 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 2: the gradual reveal of the meaning behind the device, very 444 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 2: well executed. I also liked that this story had traveled 445 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 2: to the future in the past. I feel like future 446 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 2: time travel is usually used by characters looking to learn 447 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 2: something that improves their fortunes, while the past is usually 448 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 2: visited to right or wrong and fix the present. What 449 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 2: are your favorite examples or exceptions to those time travel motivations. 450 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:55,639 Speaker 2: Which do you prefer And do you think this story 451 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,160 Speaker 2: leans into those tropes or subverts them? 452 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 1: Wow, I think it. I think it leans into it 453 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 1: pretty significantly. And I think it does it in the 454 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,679 Speaker 1: most the most kind of human way, and in the 455 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 1: way that like a like a like a Genie story, 456 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 1: a Jin story would do that because there are you know, 457 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:19,639 Speaker 1: certain sometimes very base like motivations and wishes that people 458 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: have in their heart, and I think this story really 459 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 1: delves into it. Like I want to be rich. That's 460 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: a very common ambition, Like will I be rich? Will 461 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: I be rich in scuccess? 462 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:34,679 Speaker 2: Well, that's what I've been told my whole life that 463 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 2: I'm supposed to do. Will it come true for me? 464 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: And will it come true? And how do I do it? 465 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: And and and there's also that wish fulfillment of wanting 466 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 1: a mentor you know, I think like part of moving 467 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:51,400 Speaker 1: through life is having to figure so many things out yourself. 468 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: And you know, I know, I know lots of times 469 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 1: I've been like, God, I wish there was I wish 470 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 1: I knew someone who could help me with this, and 471 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: having that person be yourself is really interesting. And also 472 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,360 Speaker 1: having like there's a great moment in the first story 473 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,160 Speaker 1: within a story where the future version of this guy 474 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: who went back does not warn his younger self that 475 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: he's going to get mugged. He doesn't warn him that 476 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: he's going to have his purse stolen. And when the 477 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 1: younger version comes back and says, why did you warn 478 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,679 Speaker 1: me about that, and he says, but you enjoyed it, 479 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,640 Speaker 1: didn't you, Because he chased the He chased the kid 480 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,360 Speaker 1: down and then managed to get a hold of him, 481 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:40,199 Speaker 1: and then the kid was so sorry and regretful of 482 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 1: what happened, and then he took mercy on him. He 483 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 1: let him go, and when the guard showed up, he's like, 484 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: don't worry about it, and his heart was beating really fast, 485 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: and he felt really alive at having like, you know, 486 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 1: had this like small adventure. And so when his future 487 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,679 Speaker 1: self says, well, you enjoyed it, didn't you, And you 488 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 1: felt alive and excited by it, didn't you like thought 489 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,679 Speaker 1: about it, and he's like, yeah, I did. And so 490 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: there's this idea that you know, sometimes you just have 491 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 1: to go through things also, like you can just have. 492 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 2: To experience them, and it's not about avoiding things that 493 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,199 Speaker 2: you might think were bad. Yeah, I love that and 494 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 2: I also I love a time travel story. Like I 495 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 2: think time travel is really complex and strange and such 496 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 2: an interesting device. And it's funny because when everyone started 497 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 2: bringing up the time travel and the discord, I was 498 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 2: kind of like, oh, I didn't even really think of 499 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:31,679 Speaker 2: it that way. I think of it more as like 500 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 2: a portal story. Yeah, I do. I love a time 501 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 2: travel story. I think a lot about time travel movies 502 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 2: that I love. I think one of the first one obviously, 503 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 2: You've got your classics, like You're Back to the Future, 504 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 2: which definitely fits into those tropes as first for laid out. 505 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 2: But I think I like a time travel story that's 506 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 2: kind of like an accidental series of unfortunate events type situation, 507 00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 2: like I think a lot about. There's a two thousand 508 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 2: and evan Spanish movie called Time Crimes that was also 509 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 2: called Chrono Crimes, and it's about a guy who accidentally 510 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 2: gets in a time machine and travels back an hour, 511 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 2: but then sets off this awful series of events where 512 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 2: like he's constantly seeing different versions of himself and it 513 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 2: creates like new timelines and he's trying to deal with it. 514 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 2: I like stuff like that where time travel is something 515 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 2: to be solved or escaped rather than a tool to 516 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 2: be used. I think that's a really interesting take on 517 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 2: time travel. I also like your classic time travel. I 518 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 2: think the Guy Piss time Machine movie with a British 519 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 2: pop star Samantha Mumba is actually a really fun, engaging movie. 520 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 2: I personally enjoyed the Recent and this is very much 521 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 2: going back in the past to fix something in the present. 522 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 2: Movie Totally Killer. I thought that was really fun on Amazon. 523 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 2: I enjoyed that one a lot. Fun kind of I 524 00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 2: like a time travel movie as well, like a Like 525 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 2: Your Name or The Lake House, where two different people 526 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 2: in two different timelines are communicating with each other and 527 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 2: they sort of don't really know that they're not in 528 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 2: the same timeline. I think those kind of stories are 529 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 2: really really fun. And I also, yeah, I just love 530 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 2: fairy tales, so for me, this is a trope that 531 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 2: I love and also a kind of framing and tone 532 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 2: that was hugely important to me. I have this one 533 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 2: of the few things I have from when I was 534 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 2: a kid is a collection of Grim's fairy tales. I 535 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 2: got from the bookshop and it's still the same collection. 536 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 2: Still this game scary cover illustration and I managed to 537 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 2: get that from England a few years ago, and I 538 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 2: have it in my house now, in my bedroom, and 539 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 2: I just I've always loved fairy tales, and I think 540 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 2: with this story, Ted, like we kind of started the 541 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 2: beginning of this podcast by saying, really takes you back 542 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 2: to that childhood wonder of what a story can be 543 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 2: and how immersed you can become in a tale and 544 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 2: in the law and wanting to be and thinking about 545 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 2: what you would do if you could go back with 546 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 2: the gate. So yeah, and obviously a very important time 547 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 2: travel movie I did not include, which is Bill and 548 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 2: Ted like a very formative, very formative movie in my life, 549 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 2: Like I have a Bill and Ted tao. I watched 550 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,719 Speaker 2: those movies. They came out, The first one came out 551 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 2: a year after I was born, so I watched them 552 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 2: kind of throughout my childhood, and I think they established 553 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 2: a lot the same way that for me, a lot 554 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 2: of vampire law is established by Lost Boys Rules, a 555 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 2: lot of time travel to me is established by Bill 556 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 2: and Ted, which is very much go back in time 557 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 2: to fix the future, though of course they do it 558 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 2: in a completely wild and totally excellent way. 559 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: I think first of them makes good points, and I 560 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: think that the you know, the standard reasons that characters 561 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 1: go back or forward in time, I think are heavily 562 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 1: tied to the way we think about our life, which 563 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: is obviously the future is an undiscovered country that we 564 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 1: puzz about and wonder what might occur a while. When 565 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 1: we look back, we think about mostly our regrets and 566 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: things that we regret happening. It's just why people want 567 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: to go back and fix things. I think that my 568 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 1: favorite examples of these kinds of stories, and part of 569 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: the reason why I really like The Merchant and they 570 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 1: Alchemists Gates so much, is like the first stories that 571 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 1: I that resonated with me that were like this were like, 572 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: you know, a Christmas Carol that Charles Dickens is, I 573 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 1: think a classic time travel story, a looking back time 574 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: travel story in which a great Ebenezer Scrooge is shown 575 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 1: how many is it's uh, three lives versions, three different 576 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: versions right of his life, not even versions, but. 577 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 2: The present, the past, the future, Yeah. 578 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 1: Scenes from his life, and you know, he goes backwards 579 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 1: and forwards. He sees that he's going to die. He 580 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: sees these moments in the past when he became you know, 581 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: when he became more selfish, turned away from people, and 582 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: decided that success in business was all that he cared about, 583 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: pushed away people he loved, and then he finally looks 584 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: into the future and discovers that he's going to die 585 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 1: alone and decides to change his life. 586 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 2: Now. Yeah, and you know, I. 587 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 1: Think it's fucking like published when like eighteen forty something. 588 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 1: I think that's as it perfect. 589 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, you actually make a fantastic point because that is 590 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 2: time travel. 591 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 1: I think that's as good a story as it gets. 592 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 1: Like a time travel story, that's as good as it gets. 593 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 2: There's a reason too, why you know Muppet's Christmas Carol, 594 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 2: Mickey's Christmas Carol, like this story is retold again and 595 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 2: again and it resonates with people. A because you know, 596 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 2: we can all relate to having a boss who won't 597 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 2: give you proper time off or pay and you want 598 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 2: him to change his ways. But b because we all 599 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 2: wonder what it will be like when we're not here, 600 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 2: Like will people miss us, will we have made an impact, 601 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 2: will we still be loved? You know? And also those 602 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 2: moments in your youth that you look back on and 603 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 2: you think, like, would my life have gone differently? You know, 604 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 2: kind of as we say, sliding doors logic another really interesting, 605 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 2: kind of different than a time travel movie, but kind 606 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 2: of a different roots that your life could take if 607 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 2: something happens, So in its own way, a multiverse movie. 608 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 2: But I love that you called out Christmas Carol because 609 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,879 Speaker 2: it is a time travel movie. It's just not well, 610 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 2: I mean, it's a time travel story. That's just not 611 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 2: how Charles Dickens would have told you that it was, 612 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 2: because it's like in this version, it's kind of more 613 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 2: like these ghosts that take you there, but you are 614 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 2: traveling back to see Scrooge and you are traveling to 615 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 2: the future. 616 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:35,320 Speaker 1: Similarly, there's Mark Twain has a connecticu Yankey? Did anybody 617 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 1: even read a Connecticut Yankee? And King Arthur's Court. It's 618 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 1: about this guy in contemporary like nineteenth century America who 619 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 1: gets concussed and then has a fantasy question Mark. Then 620 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 1: he is back in like King Arthur's time, and he 621 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:58,400 Speaker 1: uses his knowledge of history and stuff to make himself 622 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: extremely powerful. This isn't This is a story that feels 623 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: like a parable about power and the end about you know, 624 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:16,959 Speaker 1: growing monarchical tendencies in American life. But that also comes 625 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 1: off as like a fairy tale. And these are the 626 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 1: stories that, like I've these are the time travel stories that, 627 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,239 Speaker 1: like first really take over my imagination. I think, you know, 628 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 1: there are lots of others you mentioned them back to 629 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: the Future class that's like Fantastic Terminator obviously, Yeah, but 630 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 1: there's something about these kind of simple early time travel stories. 631 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: It's a wonderful life, you know. For obvious I think 632 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 1: is you know, a play Christmas Caroling, but also clearly 633 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: a time travel story about a gentleman who is losing 634 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,320 Speaker 1: his business and doesn't think he's accomplished anything in his life, 635 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: is ready to end it all, and then is transported 636 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,719 Speaker 1: to different scenes from his life where he realizes how 637 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,840 Speaker 1: many people he's actually touched. I think that there's something 638 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 1: wonderful about that that, like, you are so trapped in 639 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 1: your own perspective that if you can only step out 640 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: of it and see yourself from other perspectives, you realize 641 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,360 Speaker 1: one that everybody's worried about the same things, and two 642 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,400 Speaker 1: you're a lot more impactful than you think. Yeah, I 643 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,319 Speaker 1: think to tell to have that woven through a time 644 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 1: travel story, those are my favorite kinds of time travel stories. 645 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:32,759 Speaker 1: Let's go to a quick break and then come back 646 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 1: and talk about some of our favorite passages and moments. 647 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:51,480 Speaker 2: From this book. And we're back. 648 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: Rosie, what are some of your favorite passages from Merchant 649 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 1: and the Alchemist Gate. 650 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,919 Speaker 2: I love the moments where they are talking about the gay. 651 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,319 Speaker 2: I think that is really really cool. But for me, 652 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 2: the moment is the last line where he kind of 653 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 2: tells him what he learned, and that for him, if 654 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,479 Speaker 2: he was going to tell the king that the most 655 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,279 Speaker 2: pressed you know, what is the most precious knowledge that 656 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:24,440 Speaker 2: I possess? He says, nothing eraises the past. There is repentance, 657 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 2: there is atonement, and there is forgiveness. That is all. 658 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,839 Speaker 2: But that is enough. I think that is like such 659 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,880 Speaker 2: a fantastic final line, and I love the idea that 660 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 2: really the message is, yeah, you can go back in 661 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,840 Speaker 2: time and you can do things, and you can try 662 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:47,840 Speaker 2: and you know, change your fate or change your past. 663 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 2: But really, if you can be a better person, if 664 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:56,839 Speaker 2: you can repent for the mistakes you made, if those 665 00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,879 Speaker 2: mistakes are you know, forgiven, and you can forgive those 666 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,400 Speaker 2: who have harmed you, then that really is all the 667 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 2: change that you need. I think it is so beautiful, 668 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 2: and I think it's also very much in line with 669 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 2: the kind of notion of the generosity that is at 670 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 2: the heart of this book, and how living generously is 671 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:16,360 Speaker 2: its own payment. 672 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 1: I don't know that I could pull a particular passage 673 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 1: out because. 674 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 2: There's so much gorgeous thoff. 675 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 1: One of the things that I love about a short story, 676 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 1: and a really good one is that it's just absolutely 677 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 1: lean and self container. A good short story has. 678 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 2: No fat on the bones. 679 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, it just runs right through. But I will say 680 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:40,319 Speaker 1: that on first reading, the part where I started to 681 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,959 Speaker 1: really lean forward my seat while reading this is when 682 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 1: so Ibn has come to the decision about how he's 683 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:50,560 Speaker 1: going to what he's going to do, and he learns 684 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 1: that because the gate where he is in Damascus is 685 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 1: kind of more recently built, and so therefore to go 686 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:00,920 Speaker 1: back in time, you could only go back like a 687 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:04,040 Speaker 1: week or something since he had constructed this new gate, 688 00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 1: or a shorter period of time, not like his previous 689 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,440 Speaker 1: Gate of years, which would allow you to go back decades. 690 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:16,279 Speaker 1: And so the shopkeeper tells him, Okay, well, I've still 691 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,400 Speaker 1: the Gate of Years is still active in Cairo, and 692 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,719 Speaker 1: my original shop you can go there and my son 693 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 1: runs that shop. So he travels there and he goes through, 694 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 1: and when he goes through, there's some things that happen 695 00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:37,640 Speaker 1: where he realizes that the shopkeeper must have met, must 696 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 1: have known who he was. And it's such a magical moment. 697 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 1: Let me see he goes. So he's now telling the 698 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,359 Speaker 1: king this. He's telling the story of how he went 699 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,439 Speaker 1: to the to the other gate and met the son 700 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:53,960 Speaker 1: and then went through then and he says, quote, your 701 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,120 Speaker 1: majesty befits this chronicle of my shortcomings. I must confess 702 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,279 Speaker 1: that so immersed was I in my own woes during 703 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:05,879 Speaker 1: my journey from Baghdad. Excuse me, Bagdad, not Damascus. During 704 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,120 Speaker 1: my journey from Baghdad, I had not previously realized that 705 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,319 Speaker 1: Basharat had likely recognized me the moment I stepped into 706 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,120 Speaker 1: his shop, even as I was admiring as water clock 707 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:17,920 Speaker 1: and brass songbird. He had known that I would travel 708 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,520 Speaker 1: to Cairo and likely knew whether I had achieved my 709 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 1: goal or not. And even now I'm like God, that 710 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:30,760 Speaker 1: is so interesting to think about, when you start trying 711 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,480 Speaker 1: to uncover the mechanics of how this might work, to 712 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:38,319 Speaker 1: think that it's almost as if the people around you 713 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 1: in your life, and even the people that you might 714 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,759 Speaker 1: run into this on the street in this world are 715 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:48,440 Speaker 1: conspiring to get you to your destiny in some way, 716 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 1: like you're going to get there by your own luck 717 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:57,080 Speaker 1: and skill and agency, but also because people who have 718 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:02,320 Speaker 1: met you in different versions of yourself want to help 719 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:05,160 Speaker 1: you get there for their own reasons. 720 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:06,880 Speaker 2: But I love that read. 721 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,799 Speaker 1: And there's something like really cool about that that even 722 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,040 Speaker 1: now I'm like, Wow, that's so interesting. And then and 723 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,880 Speaker 1: then the shopkeeper just had to be like pretend that 724 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,920 Speaker 1: he didn't know who this guy was because that's very 725 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,439 Speaker 1: important for what's to come. And it just makes you 726 00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:23,480 Speaker 1: wonder how this all began. 727 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:26,359 Speaker 2: It inspires your imagination and. 728 00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:28,520 Speaker 1: That that's one of my favorite parts of the stories 729 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:33,000 Speaker 1: when these different lines, these different character courses start to 730 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:39,320 Speaker 1: overlap in these really wonderful, magical ways. Our next X 731 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 1: Ray Vision Book Club, do you want to tell folks 732 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 1: what we're doing for I'll do the drummer we are 733 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:50,759 Speaker 1: doing as we get ready for the Thunderbolts movie. On 734 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:54,560 Speaker 1: Free Comic Book Day in May, we are going to 735 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:59,359 Speaker 1: do Thunderbolts Number one, nineteen ninety seven's Thunderbolts number one 736 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:09,080 Speaker 1: by Kurt Busik, penciled by the the incredibly prolific legendary 737 00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:14,319 Speaker 1: Mark Bagley. And this is man I remember when this 738 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:15,040 Speaker 1: was released. 739 00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:17,600 Speaker 2: This was a game change. 740 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,960 Speaker 1: This caused a stir. I cannot there must have been 741 00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:27,160 Speaker 1: other like mystery box ish, who is this character ish 742 00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,040 Speaker 1: type of things that happened in comics previously. 743 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,920 Speaker 2: Like Saga was maybe the one, but this was a 744 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:34,080 Speaker 2: whole different vibe. 745 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:38,200 Speaker 1: This was baked in the promotion of it, like who 746 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:40,960 Speaker 1: are these heroes? Where did they come from? Who are 747 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:46,799 Speaker 1: the Thunderbolts? And and it's a it's just like a 748 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,120 Speaker 1: wonderful one. Tell us about this issue. 749 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:54,759 Speaker 2: This is an incredible issue. It's very, very seminole for 750 00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:57,200 Speaker 2: those of us who were in comic bookshops at the time, 751 00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:01,640 Speaker 2: who read and spoke to our friends about stuff, who've 752 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 2: discovered it later and also kind of understood the magnitude 753 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,520 Speaker 2: of what was happening. This is a great book. You're 754 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:10,920 Speaker 2: going to really enjoy it. It's just a single issue, 755 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,399 Speaker 2: so if you want, you can try and track it down. 756 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:15,320 Speaker 2: I know we have a lot of comic book collectors 757 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:19,440 Speaker 2: in our community, or you can try out Marvel Unlimited 758 00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,360 Speaker 2: for free. And read it on there for free, and 759 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:24,520 Speaker 2: it's just the first issue. Of course, you can read 760 00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:26,520 Speaker 2: more if you like, but we're going to be discussing 761 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:30,400 Speaker 2: that first issue, discussing its impact, discussing the context, discussing 762 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,360 Speaker 2: how it's going to impact what we see on screen, 763 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,360 Speaker 2: because as you will learn when you read this book, 764 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:38,560 Speaker 2: like many things in the MCU, that this is a 765 00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,840 Speaker 2: very different version of the team and it's going to 766 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:45,280 Speaker 2: be so fun and I cannot wait to read along 767 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:51,040 Speaker 2: to the discussion and reactions that you guys are going 768 00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:52,320 Speaker 2: to have to this one. So this is going to 769 00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:54,279 Speaker 2: be really fun. And it's just a single issue, so 770 00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,759 Speaker 2: it'll be a lightlift, probably twenty two pages. If you 771 00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:01,800 Speaker 2: want to get involved and read this super fun book. 772 00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,799 Speaker 1: Should we tell people about there's okay. So here's the 773 00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:07,560 Speaker 1: different ways you can read this. You read it for 774 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:11,840 Speaker 1: free on Marvel Unlimited. You could try and track down 775 00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:16,120 Speaker 1: a copy somewhere. You could probably get a copy. You 776 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,120 Speaker 1: might be able to get a copy from your library. 777 00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:21,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. Volume one Thunderbolts you could probably get from your library. 778 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,719 Speaker 1: Support your local comic shops, support your creators if you can. 779 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:27,920 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode. Thanks for listening. 780 00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:29,520 Speaker 2: Thanks guys. 781 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,320 Speaker 1: X ray Vision is hosted by Jason steps Young and 782 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,080 Speaker 1: Rosie Night and is a production of iHeart Podcasts. 783 00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:38,840 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman. 784 00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:41,200 Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Abu Zafart. 785 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:45,439 Speaker 2: Our producers are Common, Laurent Dean Jonathan and Bay Wack. 786 00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:48,319 Speaker 1: A theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme 787 00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:49,640 Speaker 1: songs by Aaron Kaufman. 788 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:53,600 Speaker 2: Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman and Heidi. 789 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:55,120 Speaker 2: Our discord moderate Thom