WEBVTT - Dr. Katherine Ramsland + Tracy Ullman: The Serial Killer’s Apprentice 0:00:00.920 --> 0:00:04.720 This story contains adult content and language, along with references 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:07.920 to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:15.320 --> 0:00:18.919 One after the other. Between nineteen seventy and nineteen seventy three, 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:22.400 six kids from miss Junior High School going missing. Their 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:25.440 fellow students start to look into this and say, these 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:28.280 aren't runaways, but the adults in their lives are saying 0:00:28.600 --> 0:00:36.080 that's what the police told us. 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:40.839 I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:43.600 in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:47.479 podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career, 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:51.479 research for my many audio and book projects has taken 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:54.800 me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down 0:00:54.840 --> 0:00:59.520 with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:03.720 and podcast pastors who have investigated and reported on notorious 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:07.200 true crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:10.680 both good and bad, and it's a deep dive into 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:17.680 the unpublished details behind their stories. Acclaimed forensic psychologist Catherine 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:20.800 Ramslin was one of my first guests on this show. 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:24.600 That's when she detailed her time with serial killer Dennis Raider. 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:28.240 Now she's back along with co author Tracy Ullman to 0:01:28.280 --> 0:01:32.000 tell me about their book, The serial Killer's Apprentice. It's 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:35.440 the complicated story centered on the accomplice of the serial 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:41.040 killer known as the candy Man. Tell me the origin 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:44.679 story of how you came across this story for listeners 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:47.039 who don't know where did this come from? 0:01:47.560 --> 0:01:50.400 Well, I can talk about first what I thought about 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:52.840 the story, and then I want to hand it to Tracy, 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:56.840 because to her is how I got the opportunity. My 0:01:56.960 --> 0:02:01.360 original sense of the story was from a classic true 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:06.120 crime book from nineteen seventy four that supposedly told the 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:10.200 real story of the candy Man, Dean Coral and his 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:14.840 accomplices Elma, Wayne Henley Junior, and David Brooks. And I 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:17.560 had in mind that was a true story. I had 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:20.440 written about it a few times, and then I saw 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:25.000 an interview with Henley on a video called The Collectors, 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:28.680 and he seemed very reflective and interesting. But I didn't 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:30.919 do anything about it. I mean, I talked to other 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:34.119 serial killers, but I didn't really follow up with him. 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:37.760 And then when we finished production, I met Terracy and 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:41.680 a production crew. When we finished a production, they asked 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:45.280 me if I wanted to do another person. They named 0:02:45.280 --> 0:02:48.200 some ideas that I didn't think would work, and immediately 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:52.200 Henley came to mind, and they said, well, Tracy already 0:02:52.240 --> 0:02:54.960 has a relationship with him, so I'm going to hand 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:57.520 that over to Tracy because it was through her that 0:02:57.639 --> 0:02:58.720 made this happen. 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:02.960 And so basically Catherine and I were working on a 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:07.280 documentary for any about BTK and the book Confessions of 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:10.120 a Serial Killer that she had written, which was the 0:03:10.160 --> 0:03:15.280 pretext for that limited series documentary. I always try to 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:18.840 have a little something that I'm working on independently. I 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:21.520 do a lot of gun for hire work, but this 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:25.280 was one that actually came off of a much larger project, 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:28.760 a tenure investigation I had done into John Wayne Gacy 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:32.480 that became a series for Peacocks Streaming called John Wayne 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:36.640 Gacy DUBN Disguise. And so as I was working on that, 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:40.400 I called Wayne Henry. I was hooked up through a friend, 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:43.880 and I said, I know now that John Wayne Gacy 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:47.480 had accomplices, and I realized that you were an accomplice 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:51.160 to Dean Coral. Can you tell me about the accomplice dynamic? 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:54.200 And he started to talk to me and I said, wait, 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:59.200 you don't sound quite like a traditional accomplice, and what 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:02.920 you're telling me, it just seems like you cross a 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:06.040 line between being a victim as well as somebody who's 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:09.840 assisting this serial killer. And so as I dove in 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:13.160 with him and I started to record conversations with him, 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:16.839 it occurred to me that not only was he someone 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:19.960 that had been sucked in at the age of fourteen, 0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:22.920 he didn't start killing them, but he had been kind 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:27.719 of seduced, but that I was discovering simultaneously that eleven 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:32.320 of the victims had appeared in pornography, which changes Dincor 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:35.560 from being kind of a lone wolf just an anomaly 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:38.919 that happens to be in you know, Houston, Texas, to 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:42.599 somebody who needs a distribution network, somebody who's working with 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:46.400 people who are publishing pornography. I realized that's kind of 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:49.880 circumstantially connected. But at the same time, it meant to 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:54.080 me that Omoy Henley was part of something much larger 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:57.200 that he might not have realized, especially at the age 0:04:57.240 --> 0:05:01.440 of fourteen. And so, you know, in the previous documentary, 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:04.520 we started making the connection between John Wayne Gacy and 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:07.360 a man named John David Norman who ran a huge 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:11.200 sex trafficking room, and we knew that that case was 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:14.080 connected to the ring, but then I wanted to look 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:18.120 more thoroughly into how the ring affected being coral. And eventually, 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:21.919 as Catherine started to talk to Elma Wayne Henley, we 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:24.960 got a lot more information that he had never related 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:27.560 to anyone in fifty years. And so I'll turn it 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:28.720 back to you, Catherine. 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:32.799 Well, when I first talked with him, he immediately said, 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:36.760 I don't want anybody talking me out of my responsibility, 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:40.919 and I'm one hundred percent culpable. And I thought, okay, 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:42.760 you know, I'm not here to talk you into or 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:47.000 out of anything. But it came clear fairly quickly that 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:49.800 he had never had any therapy. He didn't really know 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:53.080 anything about our research into the teenage brain and its 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:57.960 vulnerability to adult predators. He didn't really know the dynamics 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:00.960 of all this. So little by little began to introduce 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:05.200 into some psychological concepts and he began to listen and 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:09.240 start thinking, because he would always give some latitude for 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:12.560 other people who had been leveraged into things, but he 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:15.039 would never give it to himself. And so it really 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:19.719 took months, but he began to understand that he's not 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:22.800 fully culpable since he was a kid, and this is 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:27.640 a very clever and sophisticated adult predator who leveraged him 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:31.040 and tricked him into it. And he did try getting 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:33.720 out four times. That was something the other true crime 0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:37.160 book never even addressed. It just made it look like 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:40.960 Henley was in this, wanted to be in this, sacrificed 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:43.760 his friends. In fact, he was trying to get out, 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:46.800 and he is the only accomplice to a serial killer 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:50.000 to have killed the killer to end it. 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:50.840 Wow. 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:53.839 Well, let me ask you, doctor Ramsland, what is your 0:06:54.040 --> 0:06:59.440 experience with accomplices who are adults. I have not dealt 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:02.520 much with the complices and what that dynamic is the 0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:04.440 Only thing that I feel like I've heard is that 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:07.599 there's usually a dominant and then an not dominant person. 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:10.120 And I know you're you're talking about the nuances with 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:13.520 a teenager as an accomplice, but what's your overall experience 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:14.560 with the accomplice. 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:18.040 Well, first of all, we haven't studied accomplices very much, 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:20.720 so this book served as an opportunity and I was 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:23.680 able to categorize them in a variety of ways. The 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:27.680 adults tend to be co creators of the crimes that 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:31.480 they're committing their partners, their equal partners. Even if one 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:34.960 is dominant the other submissive, they still both want to 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:38.320 do this, So there's no it's not really about being 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:43.120 compliant or you know, reluctant in any way. So that's 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:45.360 one type of team, and that's typically what we can 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:48.760 see with adults. You see that in romantic couples have 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:52.640 become criminal teams. So I talked about a bit about 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:55.960 that in the book, and then I talked about forced accomplices, 0:07:56.080 --> 0:07:58.000 like you know, a gun to your head, you will 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:01.040 do this with me or else, and that's Nolson not 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:04.040 what we have here. And then I talked about the 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:08.760 dominant and submissive and in some cases the submissive complying, 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:12.200 not wanting to do this, never would have done this 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:16.040 on their own, but within the dynamic of the relationship, 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:20.880 the chemistry between them, they will comply and hope that 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:24.080 somehow it will go away or you know, and often, 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:28.800 and I coined a term temporary psychopath for this, because 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:32.839 they get into it in like a pocketive reality, into 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:37.000 a situation where they'll do things that are psychopathic or horrible, 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:39.640 and then when they're out of it, out from under 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:44.200 the influence of the predator. They're horrified that this isn't me. 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:47.440 I would have never done this. But you can see 0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:52.160 how they got leveraged into it, how they changed their behavior, 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:56.520 their disposition, their morality even to be able to do 0:08:56.640 --> 0:09:00.240 what they're doing, and sometimes as a survival mechanisms, times 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:03.320 because they're in love with the partner. It's different for 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:07.080 different types of teams, but we can see with Henley 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:10.840 Brooks seemed to be more attuned to it. He was 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:13.959 the first partner brought in that we know about, and 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:18.559 he actually brought Henley as a victim, as an intended victim, 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:22.640 but that didn't work out. So then Coral saw all 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:26.200 the benefits with Henley. He was plugged into a number 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:30.160 of different communities with these boys that interested Coral, and 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:32.360 so he then began using him and he kind of 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:35.600 tricked him into it and then leveraged him like now 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:38.400 you're in. Now you're involved, and there's nothing you can 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:41.040 do about it, because if you turn me in, you'll 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:43.679 go down with me and you'll get the death penalty. 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:47.439 So you have you have different dynamics with these different 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:50.319 types of teams, and it's really the first time someone 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:52.000 studied it. 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:59.040 I was just thinking, what is the importance of drawing 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:01.760 these distinctions? Killers or killers? Is what a lot of 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:04.680 people would say. Why do we care what hendling whether 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:08.320 he was drawn into something, you know, he really participated 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:11.280 willingly or not. I'm just thinking, from somebody else's point 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:13.520 of view, why is it important do you all think 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:15.200 that there isn't that distinction? 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:20.320 Because if you are a psychologists or counselor clergy whatever, 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:24.040 working with someone who's coming out of a relationship like this, 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:30.160 you see that they actually can be changed back. They 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:33.559 had a base, a moral base from which they were 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:38.520 pulled and brought into this relationship, and they can return 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:41.440 to that. So there's hope in terms of the kind 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:46.000 of psychological counseling you give them. And there's hope for 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:50.000 parents too whose child might end up in a situation 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:53.400 like this and then you know, an arrest happens, the 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:57.120 kid is brought into it, and parents and teachers as well. 0:10:57.800 --> 0:11:03.320 They can also see here for some kind of redemption, 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:06.720 and we have seen it in some of these people 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:10.840 who've gotten out of this situation, served the prison time, 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:15.160 and were able to do something productive and beneficial and 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:19.120 really had you know, fall remarks for what they had done. 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:21.400 And I certainly think there's a lot of black and 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:24.600 white thinking in true crime and people not wanting to 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:27.400 see that there are nuances. So I'm glad that we're 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:30.800 talking about this, Tracy. Where do we start with this story? 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:33.760 Is it when you know these men meet or what 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:34.600 do you think? 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:39.080 I think that the story does start when Elmawayne Henley 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:43.920 is approached by David Brooks and he's thinking that this 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:46.680 is somebody that's kind of cool. He's not having the 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:51.240 easiest time in his life. His father is violent, his 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:54.840 parents are splitting up. He finds himself being the head 0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:58.040 of the household. Elmiween Henley was brought up in a 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:02.080 religious family. His mother and grandmother were kind of the 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:05.800 base of that, and so he thought in life he 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:09.480 would grow up that he would be a minister, that 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:13.720 he would be a husband and a father, and he 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:16.680 was exploring that part of it. He also admitted to 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:20.080 being something of a hippie, so he was enjoying that 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:24.600 kind of culture. Nineteen seventy three in Houston, Texas. You've 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:27.160 got a lot going on in terms of NASA. You've 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:29.920 got a lot going on in terms of the oil industry. 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:33.280 You have a lot going on also in terms of 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:37.280 minority communities being kind of moved around so that they 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:41.400 can integrate schools, and so what you're seeing in Houston Heights, 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:44.200 which is a two and a half mile square area 0:12:44.360 --> 0:12:47.400 of Houston, is kind of change. You've got a lot 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:49.599 of people who are working in the oil industry, a 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:52.280 lot of people who are supporting you know, NASA that 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:54.600 are living in these kind of middle class to lower 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.920 middle class communities. And then you've got Dean Coral. He's 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:01.480 running his own business. It's a family business that has 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:05.000 to do with candy. They're making it on the premises. 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:07.840 It's not a huge company, but at the same time, 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:10.920 it's like a lot of other little candy companies, you know, 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:15.000 cottage industries that were in this community. He works in, 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:19.120 you know, as an electrician during the day to make money, 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:23.200 and he has a girlfriend and he seems like a 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:28.560 very nice person and he's glad handing whoever decides to 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:30.840 come through. He tends to have a lot of boys 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:35.120 come through to you know, playpool with him. They're kind 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:39.400 of introduced to kind of his lifestyle through his candy, 0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:42.120 which you know, if you are a young boy that 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:45.400 you would think this is the ultimate. I'm playing with 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:49.800 this adult. He's got this delicious candy. We're playing pool. 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:53.000 You know, I'm validated as this young man. Now, so 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:55.520 a lot of kids and this is across the street 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:57.920 from a junior high school. A lot of kids are 0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:04.120 coming there, and nobody realized that dinkorl maybe not as 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:09.000 he appears. And so as children in the neighborhood start 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:12.720 to disappear, nobody quite knows what's going on. The police 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:16.360 are telling them these are runaways, but how could they 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:19.280 be runaways? And in fact Elma Wayne Henley, along with 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:23.080 his mother, goes looking for one of these boys, who's 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:26.240 a member I believe, of his church and who's his 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:29.280 same age. They go far and wide trying to look 0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:32.280 for this boy. Nobody can find him, and one after 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:36.480 the other, between nineteen seventy and nineteen seventy three, six 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:40.680 kids from this junior high school go missing, and their 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:44.000 fellow students start to look into this and say, these 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:47.200 aren't runaways. But the adults in their lives are saying, 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:50.800 that's what the police told us. Where do you think 0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:53.760 the reverence for the police comes from? I was just talking. 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:57.120 I was reading an article about a woman who wrote 0:14:57.120 --> 0:14:59.320 her book and it didn't even because of the culture 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:01.160 she came from, it, it didn't even occur to her 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:03.960 to talk to the police. Her family just never thought 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:07.240 that the police were worth kind of, you know, even 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:09.640 going to for safety. But where do you think in 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:12.040 this community the reverence for the police comes from. 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:15.160 I didn't think there was reverence. They were pretty frustrated 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:18.480 with them, and especially one family actually hired a private 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:22.640 detective and he was run uptown by the police. Wow, 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:25.400 And they were told, don't you do this? So I 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:27.680 don't think it was reverence. It was just more what 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:30.600 else can we do? Who can we talk to beyond them? 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:33.480 And there was quite the accounting after it all was 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:37.480 said and done, that you were wrong, and one after 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:39.400 another our sons were murdered. 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:45.760 Tell me a little bit about David Brooks. These young men. 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:48.400 So you've got Henley and David Brooks. They're both teenagers 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:51.120 when this is happening, right, Henley is fourteen when this starts. 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:54.640 Yeah, David Brooks was twelve actually when he met Coral 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:57.920 and met him though Candy give me out hunks of 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:01.840 chocolate and whatnot. But David Brooks came also from a 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:05.520 broken family, but he had the misfortune of both parents 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:08.440 thinking he would come to no good, neither wanting to 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:10.760 have much to do with him. He's kind of at 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:14.360 loose ends. He was geeky. He had this long, stringy 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:18.800 blonde hair and these big eyeglasses and a very introverted 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:23.720 type of person. He was smoking dope and getting into trouble. 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:27.120 He had been arrested for a theft. So he's just 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:30.360 kind of this kid who was at odds with himself 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:34.600 and with everybody else. And Coral saw him and showed 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:39.080 him respect that he had never experienced before, treated him 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:42.920 like an adult, gave him place to stay, gave him gifts, 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:47.360 eventually had some sexual contact with them, and gave him 0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:50.080 five or ten dollars. He had money in his pumpet 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:54.160 once when he discovered Coral. He came in and discovered 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:58.440 Coral with two kids tied to the bed naked. Coral said, 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:00.480 if you don't tell anyone, I'll give you a car, 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:04.760 which he did so. David Brooks, who had nowhere to 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:09.400 turn in his own family and was basically dismissed as 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:15.040 a loser, found solace with an adult male who gave 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:18.919 him a place to stay to live, food, money, a car. 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:23.280 He was an easy target and he fell right into it. 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:26.440 And I'm assuming doctor Ramsel, and this is a story 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:28.280 that you've heard over and over again. I mean, just 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:31.840 throughout the decades, it doesn't seem to change. Maybe there's 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:35.360 more offerings from someone who's grooming, you know, through Internet 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:38.960 or pornography or whatever it is, that the offerings might change, 0:17:39.000 --> 0:17:41.680 But the grooming methods seem so consistent. 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:42.280 Is that right? 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:45.240 Because they work. I have one study in my book 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:49.040 of these predators who agreed to talk and talked about 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:51.800 the kind of person they would look for. The kid 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:55.920 who seems vulnerable, who seems introverted. It seems like their 0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:57.919 home life is so great, or they're not doing so 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:01.919 well in school, and they're in they yield to gift 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:06.199 giving and joke telling and you know, such things just 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:09.119 to have a friend. Just you can see their neediness 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:13.080 and their vulnerability, and these predators develop an eye for it. 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:16.000 It's like it's like I talked about being like the 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:20.320 quiet eye in sports, where they hone themselves so well 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:23.280 they can see the ball so vividly as it's coming 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:27.560 over the net. Or through the court. Same for the predators. 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:32.120 They are always vigilant for who is vulnerable, and they 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:35.320 know not just to groom the child, but to groom 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:39.640 the community to believe that they are good people. They're 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:44.359 scout leaders or youth ministers or teachers or you know, 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:48.080 somebody who can be trusted with their child and they 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:52.159 are doing parents of favor by spending time with the child, 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:56.080 and that they look for those situations and the reason 0:18:56.400 --> 0:18:59.160 the grooming is the same over and overs it's working. 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:04.040 Is there anything in Dean Coral's background that would have indicated, 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:07.360 you know, that any of this was even possible. He's married, 0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:10.440 How is this even logistically possible for him? 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:14.360 He wasn't married. He had a girlfriend, Betty Hawkins, and 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:18.120 Betty Hawkins was a divorced woman with a child. So 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:20.159 you can see how he would want to kind of 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:23.760 validate his life by saying, but I have a woman 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:26.760 I'm looking to engage, I have a woman with a child. 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:30.600 I'm looking to be this man. And when you look 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:35.040 at his mother, who had a variety of different marriages, 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:37.760 a lot of different father figures that he really didn't 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:41.840 get along with in his home life, and Dean Coral 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:44.680 from the outside would look to be somebody who kind 0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:48.159 of survived all that, who definitely had his differences with 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:52.000 his stepfather's. But I mean he went into the family business. 0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:56.080 He's a member of the community for sure, so I 0:19:56.160 --> 0:19:59.719 think that, you know, nobody was looking too deeply into him, 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:03.080 but he accepted him at face value. And in fact, 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:07.040 his mother, once these crimes were discovered and her son 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:10.760 is dead, she said, Elma, Wayne Henley and David Brooks 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:15.280 set my son up. They were evil and she really 0:20:15.320 --> 0:20:20.600 couldn't accept that. All along, Dean Coral was on a 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:22.880 one way trip to his demise. 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:26.760 Doctor Ramslin, would you categorize from what you know about 0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:28.920 Dean Coral as somebody with psychopathy? 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:31.680 Well, he certainly say this, There's no doubt about that. 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:36.159 The kinds of torture instruments he invented and engaged with. 0:20:36.840 --> 0:20:39.440 I had a torture board. Sometimes he would tie two 0:20:40.080 --> 0:20:43.199 boys to it, and in one case he told two friends, 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:47.160 if you fight each other, the survivor I will free. 0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:51.520 That's psychological torture. But he also raped them. He also 0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:55.040 stuck things into them, he electrocuted them. He did all 0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:59.240 kinds of horrific things. To them too, sometimes for days 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:02.119 at a time, hold them there. So he's certainly a 0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:05.840 state is no remorse whatsoever for what he did. We 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:08.880 don't know enough about him to put a diagnosis on him, 0:21:09.320 --> 0:21:12.360 but we do know that his behavior has a lot 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:14.320 of psychopathic overtones. For sure. 0:21:14.960 --> 0:21:18.960 The idea behind an accomplice seems so risky. What would 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:22.840 motivate Dean Coral. It seems like he has a steady 0:21:23.200 --> 0:21:26.080 kind of way of getting kids in, drawing kids in 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:28.240 with the candy. Why bring in an accomplice and take 0:21:28.240 --> 0:21:29.080 that kind of risk. 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:33.120 It wasn't the candy was really for little kids. Later 0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:35.679 that he'd pick out boys and bring them to his 0:21:36.080 --> 0:21:38.919 place where a pool table and motorcycle. He'd take them 0:21:38.960 --> 0:21:42.399 to the beach and whatnot. However, an adult hanging out with 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:47.720 kids is exposed, and so if he could send out 0:21:47.720 --> 0:21:51.600 accomplices to go pick them up, that actually lessens his exposures. 0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:54.280 So in the way, it's a risk, but apparently in 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:57.440 his mind it was a lesser risk to have accomplices 0:21:57.480 --> 0:22:00.680 that he thought he could control. I mean, he believed 0:22:00.359 --> 0:22:03.040 he had full control over them through the kind of 0:22:03.119 --> 0:22:05.520 leveraging he used, and he talked about and this is 0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:08.000 where we could turn it back to Tracy. He talked 0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:12.359 about being part of a syndicate of these traffickers who 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:15.600 would be well aware of any move these boys made, 0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:19.600 and if they did something and that would turn on 0:22:19.680 --> 0:22:21.679 him in some way, they would pay a price, and 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:26.320 so of their families. So he had them convinced that 0:22:26.800 --> 0:22:30.760 they were always being watched and potentially in danger if 0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:31.879 they didn't do what he said. 0:22:33.240 --> 0:22:36.359 Why don't we talk a little bit about how Henley 0:22:36.520 --> 0:22:39.600 is brought in by Brooks and introduced to Chorrel and 0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:42.800 then the evolution of the relationship, which I hate to 0:22:42.840 --> 0:22:45.320 even use that word, but that's what it was. So 0:22:45.359 --> 0:22:47.920 where do we pick up there? Henley is fourteen. 0:22:48.560 --> 0:22:52.840 We were very blessed to have the attention of Wayne's mom, 0:22:52.960 --> 0:22:56.480 Mary Henley, and Mary Henley is the same age as 0:22:56.560 --> 0:23:00.399 Dean Coral and so when she meets Dean Coral, she 0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:04.800 thinks that he's slightly immature, he's kind of goofy. He 0:23:04.920 --> 0:23:07.719 pulls up and he lays on the horn on his 0:23:08.359 --> 0:23:11.960 you know van that he's driven to her house and 0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:14.440 she walks out and she says, you don't haunk the 0:23:14.520 --> 0:23:17.000 horn at my house. You you come and talk to 0:23:17.040 --> 0:23:19.240 me if you want to hang out with my young son. 0:23:19.920 --> 0:23:23.200 And so this is a man who kind of ingratiated himself, 0:23:23.520 --> 0:23:26.679 not only with Mary Henley, but with her mother, and 0:23:26.760 --> 0:23:29.240 so the two of them kind of saw him as, 0:23:29.400 --> 0:23:32.800 you know, this goofy geek. They did not see any 0:23:32.840 --> 0:23:35.480