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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references

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Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: One after the other. Between nineteen seventy and nineteen seventy three,

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Speaker 2: six kids from miss Junior High School going missing. Their

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Speaker 2: fellow students start to look into this and say, these

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Speaker 2: aren't runaways, but the adults in their lives are saying

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Speaker 2: that's what the police told us.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcast pastors who have investigated and reported on notorious

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Speaker 1: true crime cases. This is about the choices writers make,

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Speaker 1: both good and bad, and it's a deep dive into

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Speaker 1: the unpublished details behind their stories. Acclaimed forensic psychologist Catherine

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Speaker 1: Ramslin was one of my first guests on this show.

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Speaker 1: That's when she detailed her time with serial killer Dennis Raider.

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Speaker 1: Now she's back along with co author Tracy Ullman to

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Speaker 1: tell me about their book, The serial Killer's Apprentice. It's

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Speaker 1: the complicated story centered on the accomplice of the serial

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Speaker 1: killer known as the candy Man. Tell me the origin

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Speaker 1: story of how you came across this story for listeners

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Speaker 1: who don't know where did this come from?

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Speaker 3: Well, I can talk about first what I thought about

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Speaker 3: the story, and then I want to hand it to Tracy,

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Speaker 3: because to her is how I got the opportunity. My

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Speaker 3: original sense of the story was from a classic true

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Speaker 3: crime book from nineteen seventy four that supposedly told the

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Speaker 3: real story of the candy Man, Dean Coral and his

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Speaker 3: accomplices Elma, Wayne Henley Junior, and David Brooks. And I

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Speaker 3: had in mind that was a true story. I had

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Speaker 3: written about it a few times, and then I saw

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Speaker 3: an interview with Henley on a video called The Collectors,

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Speaker 3: and he seemed very reflective and interesting. But I didn't

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Speaker 3: do anything about it. I mean, I talked to other

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Speaker 3: serial killers, but I didn't really follow up with him.

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Speaker 3: And then when we finished production, I met Terracy and

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Speaker 3: a production crew. When we finished a production, they asked

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Speaker 3: me if I wanted to do another person. They named

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Speaker 3: some ideas that I didn't think would work, and immediately

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Speaker 3: Henley came to mind, and they said, well, Tracy already

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Speaker 3: has a relationship with him, so I'm going to hand

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Speaker 3: that over to Tracy because it was through her that

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Speaker 3: made this happen.

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Speaker 2: And so basically Catherine and I were working on a

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Speaker 2: documentary for any about BTK and the book Confessions of

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Speaker 2: a Serial Killer that she had written, which was the

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Speaker 2: pretext for that limited series documentary. I always try to

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Speaker 2: have a little something that I'm working on independently. I

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Speaker 2: do a lot of gun for hire work, but this

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Speaker 2: was one that actually came off of a much larger project,

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Speaker 2: a tenure investigation I had done into John Wayne Gacy

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Speaker 2: that became a series for Peacocks Streaming called John Wayne

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Speaker 2: Gacy DUBN Disguise. And so as I was working on that,

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Speaker 2: I called Wayne Henry. I was hooked up through a friend,

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Speaker 2: and I said, I know now that John Wayne Gacy

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Speaker 2: had accomplices, and I realized that you were an accomplice

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Speaker 2: to Dean Coral. Can you tell me about the accomplice dynamic?

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Speaker 2: And he started to talk to me and I said, wait,

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Speaker 2: you don't sound quite like a traditional accomplice, and what

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Speaker 2: you're telling me, it just seems like you cross a

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Speaker 2: line between being a victim as well as somebody who's

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Speaker 2: assisting this serial killer. And so as I dove in

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Speaker 2: with him and I started to record conversations with him,

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Speaker 2: it occurred to me that not only was he someone

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Speaker 2: that had been sucked in at the age of fourteen,

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Speaker 2: he didn't start killing them, but he had been kind

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Speaker 2: of seduced, but that I was discovering simultaneously that eleven

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Speaker 2: of the victims had appeared in pornography, which changes Dincor

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Speaker 2: from being kind of a lone wolf just an anomaly

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Speaker 2: that happens to be in you know, Houston, Texas, to

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Speaker 2: somebody who needs a distribution network, somebody who's working with

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Speaker 2: people who are publishing pornography. I realized that's kind of

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Speaker 2: circumstantially connected. But at the same time, it meant to

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Speaker 2: me that Omoy Henley was part of something much larger

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Speaker 2: that he might not have realized, especially at the age

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Speaker 2: of fourteen. And so, you know, in the previous documentary,

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Speaker 2: we started making the connection between John Wayne Gacy and

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Speaker 2: a man named John David Norman who ran a huge

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Speaker 2: sex trafficking room, and we knew that that case was

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Speaker 2: connected to the ring, but then I wanted to look

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Speaker 2: more thoroughly into how the ring affected being coral. And eventually,

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Speaker 2: as Catherine started to talk to Elma Wayne Henley, we

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Speaker 2: got a lot more information that he had never related

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Speaker 2: to anyone in fifty years. And so I'll turn it

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Speaker 2: back to you, Catherine.

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Speaker 3: Well, when I first talked with him, he immediately said,

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Speaker 3: I don't want anybody talking me out of my responsibility,

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Speaker 3: and I'm one hundred percent culpable. And I thought, okay,

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Speaker 3: you know, I'm not here to talk you into or

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Speaker 3: out of anything. But it came clear fairly quickly that

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Speaker 3: he had never had any therapy. He didn't really know

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Speaker 3: anything about our research into the teenage brain and its

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Speaker 3: vulnerability to adult predators. He didn't really know the dynamics

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Speaker 3: of all this. So little by little began to introduce

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Speaker 3: into some psychological concepts and he began to listen and

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Speaker 3: start thinking, because he would always give some latitude for

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Speaker 3: other people who had been leveraged into things, but he

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Speaker 3: would never give it to himself. And so it really

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Speaker 3: took months, but he began to understand that he's not

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Speaker 3: fully culpable since he was a kid, and this is

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Speaker 3: a very clever and sophisticated adult predator who leveraged him

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Speaker 3: and tricked him into it. And he did try getting

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Speaker 3: out four times. That was something the other true crime

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Speaker 3: book never even addressed. It just made it look like

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Speaker 3: Henley was in this, wanted to be in this, sacrificed

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Speaker 3: his friends. In fact, he was trying to get out,

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Speaker 3: and he is the only accomplice to a serial killer

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Speaker 3: to have killed the killer to end it.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you, doctor Ramsland, what is your

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Speaker 1: experience with accomplices who are adults. I have not dealt

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Speaker 1: much with the complices and what that dynamic is the

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Speaker 1: Only thing that I feel like I've heard is that

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Speaker 1: there's usually a dominant and then an not dominant person.

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Speaker 1: And I know you're you're talking about the nuances with

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Speaker 1: a teenager as an accomplice, but what's your overall experience

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Speaker 1: with the accomplice.

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Speaker 3: Well, first of all, we haven't studied accomplices very much,

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Speaker 3: so this book served as an opportunity and I was

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Speaker 3: able to categorize them in a variety of ways. The

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Speaker 3: adults tend to be co creators of the crimes that

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Speaker 3: they're committing their partners, their equal partners. Even if one

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Speaker 3: is dominant the other submissive, they still both want to

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Speaker 3: do this, So there's no it's not really about being

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Speaker 3: compliant or you know, reluctant in any way. So that's

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Speaker 3: one type of team, and that's typically what we can

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Speaker 3: see with adults. You see that in romantic couples have

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Speaker 3: become criminal teams. So I talked about a bit about

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Speaker 3: that in the book, and then I talked about forced accomplices,

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Speaker 3: like you know, a gun to your head, you will

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Speaker 3: do this with me or else, and that's Nolson not

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Speaker 3: what we have here. And then I talked about the

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Speaker 3: dominant and submissive and in some cases the submissive complying,

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Speaker 3: not wanting to do this, never would have done this

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Speaker 3: on their own, but within the dynamic of the relationship,

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Speaker 3: the chemistry between them, they will comply and hope that

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Speaker 3: somehow it will go away or you know, and often,

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Speaker 3: and I coined a term temporary psychopath for this, because

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Speaker 3: they get into it in like a pocketive reality, into

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Speaker 3: a situation where they'll do things that are psychopathic or horrible,

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Speaker 3: and then when they're out of it, out from under

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Speaker 3: the influence of the predator. They're horrified that this isn't me.

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Speaker 3: I would have never done this. But you can see

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Speaker 3: how they got leveraged into it, how they changed their behavior,

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Speaker 3: their disposition, their morality even to be able to do

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Speaker 3: what they're doing, and sometimes as a survival mechanisms, times

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Speaker 3: because they're in love with the partner. It's different for

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Speaker 3: different types of teams, but we can see with Henley

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Speaker 3: Brooks seemed to be more attuned to it. He was

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Speaker 3: the first partner brought in that we know about, and

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Speaker 3: he actually brought Henley as a victim, as an intended victim,

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Speaker 3: but that didn't work out. So then Coral saw all

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Speaker 3: the benefits with Henley. He was plugged into a number

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Speaker 3: of different communities with these boys that interested Coral, and

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Speaker 3: so he then began using him and he kind of

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Speaker 3: tricked him into it and then leveraged him like now

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Speaker 3: you're in. Now you're involved, and there's nothing you can

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Speaker 3: do about it, because if you turn me in, you'll

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Speaker 3: go down with me and you'll get the death penalty.

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Speaker 3: So you have you have different dynamics with these different

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Speaker 3: types of teams, and it's really the first time someone

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Speaker 3: studied it.

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Speaker 1: I was just thinking, what is the importance of drawing

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Speaker 1: these distinctions? Killers or killers? Is what a lot of

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Speaker 1: people would say. Why do we care what hendling whether

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Speaker 1: he was drawn into something, you know, he really participated

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Speaker 1: willingly or not. I'm just thinking, from somebody else's point

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Speaker 1: of view, why is it important do you all think

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Speaker 1: that there isn't that distinction?

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Speaker 3: Because if you are a psychologists or counselor clergy whatever,

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Speaker 3: working with someone who's coming out of a relationship like this,

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Speaker 3: you see that they actually can be changed back. They

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Speaker 3: had a base, a moral base from which they were

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Speaker 3: pulled and brought into this relationship, and they can return

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Speaker 3: to that. So there's hope in terms of the kind

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Speaker 3: of psychological counseling you give them. And there's hope for

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Speaker 3: parents too whose child might end up in a situation

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Speaker 3: like this and then you know, an arrest happens, the

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Speaker 3: kid is brought into it, and parents and teachers as well.

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Speaker 3: They can also see here for some kind of redemption,

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Speaker 3: and we have seen it in some of these people

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Speaker 3: who've gotten out of this situation, served the prison time,

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Speaker 3: and were able to do something productive and beneficial and

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Speaker 3: really had you know, fall remarks for what they had done.

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Speaker 1: And I certainly think there's a lot of black and

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Speaker 1: white thinking in true crime and people not wanting to

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Speaker 1: see that there are nuances. So I'm glad that we're

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Speaker 1: talking about this, Tracy. Where do we start with this story?

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Speaker 1: Is it when you know these men meet or what

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Speaker 1: do you think?

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Speaker 2: I think that the story does start when Elmawayne Henley

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Speaker 2: is approached by David Brooks and he's thinking that this

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Speaker 2: is somebody that's kind of cool. He's not having the

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Speaker 2: easiest time in his life. His father is violent, his

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Speaker 2: parents are splitting up. He finds himself being the head

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Speaker 2: of the household. Elmiween Henley was brought up in a

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Speaker 2: religious family. His mother and grandmother were kind of the

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Speaker 2: base of that, and so he thought in life he

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Speaker 2: would grow up that he would be a minister, that

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Speaker 2: he would be a husband and a father, and he

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Speaker 2: was exploring that part of it. He also admitted to

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Speaker 2: being something of a hippie, so he was enjoying that

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Speaker 2: kind of culture. Nineteen seventy three in Houston, Texas. You've

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Speaker 2: got a lot going on in terms of NASA. You've

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Speaker 2: got a lot going on in terms of the oil industry.

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Speaker 2: You have a lot going on also in terms of

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Speaker 2: minority communities being kind of moved around so that they

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Speaker 2: can integrate schools, and so what you're seeing in Houston Heights,

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Speaker 2: which is a two and a half mile square area

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Speaker 2: of Houston, is kind of change. You've got a lot

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Speaker 2: of people who are working in the oil industry, a

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Speaker 2: lot of people who are supporting you know, NASA that

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Speaker 2: are living in these kind of middle class to lower

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Speaker 2: middle class communities. And then you've got Dean Coral. He's

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Speaker 2: running his own business. It's a family business that has

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Speaker 2: to do with candy. They're making it on the premises.

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Speaker 2: It's not a huge company, but at the same time,

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Speaker 2: it's like a lot of other little candy companies, you know,

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Speaker 2: cottage industries that were in this community. He works in,

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Speaker 2: you know, as an electrician during the day to make money,

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Speaker 2: and he has a girlfriend and he seems like a

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Speaker 2: very nice person and he's glad handing whoever decides to

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Speaker 2: come through. He tends to have a lot of boys

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Speaker 2: come through to you know, playpool with him. They're kind

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Speaker 2: of introduced to kind of his lifestyle through his candy,

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Speaker 2: which you know, if you are a young boy that

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Speaker 2: you would think this is the ultimate. I'm playing with

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Speaker 2: this adult. He's got this delicious candy. We're playing pool.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm validated as this young man. Now, so

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Speaker 2: a lot of kids and this is across the street

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Speaker 2: from a junior high school. A lot of kids are

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Speaker 2: coming there, and nobody realized that dinkorl maybe not as

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Speaker 2: he appears. And so as children in the neighborhood start

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Speaker 2: to disappear, nobody quite knows what's going on. The police

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Speaker 2: are telling them these are runaways, but how could they

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Speaker 2: be runaways? And in fact Elma Wayne Henley, along with

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Speaker 2: his mother, goes looking for one of these boys, who's

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Speaker 2: a member I believe, of his church and who's his

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Speaker 2: same age. They go far and wide trying to look

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Speaker 2: for this boy. Nobody can find him, and one after

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Speaker 2: the other, between nineteen seventy and nineteen seventy three, six

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Speaker 2: kids from this junior high school go missing, and their

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Speaker 2: fellow students start to look into this and say, these

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Speaker 2: aren't runaways. But the adults in their lives are saying,

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Speaker 2: that's what the police told us. Where do you think

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Speaker 2: the reverence for the police comes from? I was just talking.

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Speaker 1: I was reading an article about a woman who wrote

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Speaker 1: her book and it didn't even because of the culture

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Speaker 1: she came from, it, it didn't even occur to her

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Speaker 1: to talk to the police. Her family just never thought

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Speaker 1: that the police were worth kind of, you know, even

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Speaker 1: going to for safety. But where do you think in

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Speaker 1: this community the reverence for the police comes from.

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Speaker 3: I didn't think there was reverence. They were pretty frustrated

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Speaker 3: with them, and especially one family actually hired a private

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Speaker 3: detective and he was run uptown by the police. Wow,

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Speaker 3: And they were told, don't you do this? So I

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Speaker 3: don't think it was reverence. It was just more what

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Speaker 3: else can we do? Who can we talk to beyond them?

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Speaker 3: And there was quite the accounting after it all was

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Speaker 3: said and done, that you were wrong, and one after

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Speaker 3: another our sons were murdered.

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Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about David Brooks. These young men.

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Speaker 1: So you've got Henley and David Brooks. They're both teenagers

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Speaker 1: when this is happening, right, Henley is fourteen when this starts.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, David Brooks was twelve actually when he met Coral

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Speaker 3: and met him though Candy give me out hunks of

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Speaker 3: chocolate and whatnot. But David Brooks came also from a

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Speaker 3: broken family, but he had the misfortune of both parents

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Speaker 3: thinking he would come to no good, neither wanting to

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Speaker 3: have much to do with him. He's kind of at

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Speaker 3: loose ends. He was geeky. He had this long, stringy

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Speaker 3: blonde hair and these big eyeglasses and a very introverted

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Speaker 3: type of person. He was smoking dope and getting into trouble.

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Speaker 3: He had been arrested for a theft. So he's just

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Speaker 3: kind of this kid who was at odds with himself

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Speaker 3: and with everybody else. And Coral saw him and showed

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Speaker 3: him respect that he had never experienced before, treated him

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Speaker 3: like an adult, gave him place to stay, gave him gifts,

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Speaker 3: eventually had some sexual contact with them, and gave him

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Speaker 3: five or ten dollars. He had money in his pumpet

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Speaker 3: once when he discovered Coral. He came in and discovered

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Speaker 3: Coral with two kids tied to the bed naked. Coral said,

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Speaker 3: if you don't tell anyone, I'll give you a car,

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Speaker 3: which he did so. David Brooks, who had nowhere to

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Speaker 3: turn in his own family and was basically dismissed as

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Speaker 3: a loser, found solace with an adult male who gave

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Speaker 3: him a place to stay to live, food, money, a car.

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Speaker 3: He was an easy target and he fell right into it.

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Speaker 1: And I'm assuming doctor Ramsel, and this is a story

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Speaker 1: that you've heard over and over again. I mean, just

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Speaker 1: throughout the decades, it doesn't seem to change. Maybe there's

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Speaker 1: more offerings from someone who's grooming, you know, through Internet

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Speaker 1: or pornography or whatever it is, that the offerings might change,

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Speaker 1: But the grooming methods seem so consistent.

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Speaker 2: Is that right?

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Speaker 3: Because they work. I have one study in my book

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Speaker 3: of these predators who agreed to talk and talked about

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Speaker 3: the kind of person they would look for. The kid

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Speaker 3: who seems vulnerable, who seems introverted. It seems like their

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Speaker 3: home life is so great, or they're not doing so

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Speaker 3: well in school, and they're in they yield to gift

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Speaker 3: giving and joke telling and you know, such things just

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Speaker 3: to have a friend. Just you can see their neediness

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Speaker 3: and their vulnerability, and these predators develop an eye for it.

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Speaker 3: It's like it's like I talked about being like the

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Speaker 3: quiet eye in sports, where they hone themselves so well

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Speaker 3: they can see the ball so vividly as it's coming

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Speaker 3: over the net. Or through the court. Same for the predators.

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Speaker 3: They are always vigilant for who is vulnerable, and they

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Speaker 3: know not just to groom the child, but to groom

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Speaker 3: the community to believe that they are good people. They're

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Speaker 3: scout leaders or youth ministers or teachers or you know,

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Speaker 3: somebody who can be trusted with their child and they

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Speaker 3: are doing parents of favor by spending time with the child,

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Speaker 3: and that they look for those situations and the reason

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Speaker 3: the grooming is the same over and overs it's working.

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Speaker 1: Is there anything in Dean Coral's background that would have indicated,

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Speaker 1: you know, that any of this was even possible. He's married,

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Speaker 1: How is this even logistically possible for him?

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Speaker 2: He wasn't married. He had a girlfriend, Betty Hawkins, and

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Speaker 2: Betty Hawkins was a divorced woman with a child. So

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Speaker 2: you can see how he would want to kind of

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Speaker 2: validate his life by saying, but I have a woman

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Speaker 2: I'm looking to engage, I have a woman with a child.

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Speaker 2: I'm looking to be this man. And when you look

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Speaker 2: at his mother, who had a variety of different marriages,

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Speaker 2: a lot of different father figures that he really didn't

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Speaker 2: get along with in his home life, and Dean Coral

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Speaker 2: from the outside would look to be somebody who kind

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Speaker 2: of survived all that, who definitely had his differences with

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Speaker 2: his stepfather's. But I mean he went into the family business.

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Speaker 2: He's a member of the community for sure, so I

337
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Speaker 2: think that, you know, nobody was looking too deeply into him,

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Speaker 2: but he accepted him at face value. And in fact,

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Speaker 2: his mother, once these crimes were discovered and her son

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Speaker 2: is dead, she said, Elma, Wayne Henley and David Brooks

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Speaker 2: set my son up. They were evil and she really

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Speaker 2: couldn't accept that. All along, Dean Coral was on a

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Speaker 2: one way trip to his demise.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Ramslin, would you categorize from what you know about

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Speaker 1: Dean Coral as somebody with psychopathy?

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Speaker 3: Well, he certainly say this, There's no doubt about that.

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Speaker 3: The kinds of torture instruments he invented and engaged with.

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Speaker 3: I had a torture board. Sometimes he would tie two

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Speaker 3: boys to it, and in one case he told two friends,

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Speaker 3: if you fight each other, the survivor I will free.

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Speaker 3: That's psychological torture. But he also raped them. He also

352
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Speaker 3: stuck things into them, he electrocuted them. He did all

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Speaker 3: kinds of horrific things. To them too, sometimes for days

354
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Speaker 3: at a time, hold them there. So he's certainly a

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Speaker 3: state is no remorse whatsoever for what he did. We

356
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Speaker 3: don't know enough about him to put a diagnosis on him,

357
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Speaker 3: but we do know that his behavior has a lot

358
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Speaker 3: of psychopathic overtones. For sure.

359
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Speaker 1: The idea behind an accomplice seems so risky. What would

360
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Speaker 1: motivate Dean Coral. It seems like he has a steady

361
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Speaker 1: kind of way of getting kids in, drawing kids in

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Speaker 1: with the candy. Why bring in an accomplice and take

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Speaker 1: that kind of risk.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't the candy was really for little kids. Later

365
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Speaker 3: that he'd pick out boys and bring them to his

366
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Speaker 3: place where a pool table and motorcycle. He'd take them

367
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,399
Speaker 3: to the beach and whatnot. However, an adult hanging out with

368
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:47,720
Speaker 3: kids is exposed, and so if he could send out

369
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Speaker 3: accomplices to go pick them up, that actually lessens his exposures.

370
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Speaker 3: So in the way, it's a risk, but apparently in

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Speaker 3: his mind it was a lesser risk to have accomplices

372
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Speaker 3: that he thought he could control. I mean, he believed

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Speaker 3: he had full control over them through the kind of

374
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Speaker 3: leveraging he used, and he talked about and this is

375
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Speaker 3: where we could turn it back to Tracy. He talked

376
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Speaker 3: about being part of a syndicate of these traffickers who

377
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,600
Speaker 3: would be well aware of any move these boys made,

378
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Speaker 3: and if they did something and that would turn on

379
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:21,679
Speaker 3: him in some way, they would pay a price, and

380
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:26,320
Speaker 3: so of their families. So he had them convinced that

381
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Speaker 3: they were always being watched and potentially in danger if

382
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Speaker 3: they didn't do what he said.

383
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Speaker 1: Why don't we talk a little bit about how Henley

384
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Speaker 1: is brought in by Brooks and introduced to Chorrel and

385
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Speaker 1: then the evolution of the relationship, which I hate to

386
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Speaker 1: even use that word, but that's what it was. So

387
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Speaker 1: where do we pick up there? Henley is fourteen.

388
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Speaker 2: We were very blessed to have the attention of Wayne's mom,

389
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Speaker 2: Mary Henley, and Mary Henley is the same age as

390
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Speaker 2: Dean Coral and so when she meets Dean Coral, she

391
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,800
Speaker 2: thinks that he's slightly immature, he's kind of goofy. He

392
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,719
Speaker 2: pulls up and he lays on the horn on his

393
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 2: you know van that he's driven to her house and

394
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Speaker 2: she walks out and she says, you don't haunk the

395
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Speaker 2: horn at my house. You you come and talk to

396
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Speaker 2: me if you want to hang out with my young son.

397
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Speaker 2: And so this is a man who kind of ingratiated himself,

398
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Speaker 2: not only with Mary Henley, but with her mother, and

399
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Speaker 2: so the two of them kind of saw him as,

400
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 2: you know, this goofy geek. They did not see any

401
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 2: form of danger. At one point, he was trying to

402
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 2: get his van out of the driveway and she had

403
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,160
Speaker 2: to show him how to do it. So he had

404
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 2: this kind of level of not entirely functioning, and she

405
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 2: just saw that as like, oh, I'm going to take

406
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 2: pity on this man who's my age, who doesn't seem

407
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 2: to be adulting. And so from there, you know, you've

408
00:23:54,800 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 2: got the family, the Henleys, who are kind of falling apart.

409
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 2: They're doing the best that they possibly can. Mary Henley's

410
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 2: father dies not long before that. She divorces her husband,

411
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,399
Speaker 2: but there's still a lot of domestic violence issues in

412
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,880
Speaker 2: the background for them. On the other hand, with David Brooks,

413
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 2: his father's actually quite a well known contractor in the area.

414
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,199
Speaker 2: You know, he's not poor. And why it's acceptable for

415
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 2: David Brooks to live with Dean Coral is a huge

416
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 2: question mark. Who thought that this was an appropriate relationship.

417
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 2: But Brooks doesn't come with a mother and a grandmother

418
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,639
Speaker 2: that kind of validates his relationship. He's kind of an

419
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 2: odd one out living with Dean Coral when Henley brings

420
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 2: this kind of familial relationship and so as he gets

421
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 2: more involved and as he's made more of the man

422
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,640
Speaker 2: of the house in his own family, Dean Coral convinces him,

423
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 2: let's do this burglary. If you want to show me

424
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Speaker 2: what you're made of, you're going to do this for me.

425
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,399
Speaker 2: So he goes and burglarizes a property. He brings the

426
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 2: stuff to Dean Coral and he's thinking to himself, I'm

427
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 2: going to make some money for my family. I've been

428
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,440
Speaker 2: working at a gas station, but this is going to

429
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,440
Speaker 2: net me more and it's going to be easier. And

430
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 2: he's also ingratiating himself with this adult who has started by,

431
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 2: you know, making kind of dirty jokes with him. He's

432
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 2: a cool cat. He seems like he's hanging and so,

433
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 2: you know, Wayne wants that acceptance. He hasn't had his

434
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 2: father validate him. And again, much like with David Brooks,

435
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,880
Speaker 2: Dean Coral sees his weakness and he fills that space.

436
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 2: And so but after the burglary, Dean Coral starts to

437
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 2: lean into that and say, now you're an accomplice. You're

438
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 2: somebody who has committed a crime that I know about.

439
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,880
Speaker 2: And this is how he leverages Elma, Wayne Henley, Who's

440
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,919
Speaker 2: if you think about when you were fourteen, like I

441
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 2: really didn't have a clue about the whiter world, and

442
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 2: if you think about where he doesn't quite understand anything.

443
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think the entire nation was o

444
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 2: fay with the idea of a large sex trafficking ring.

445
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,959
Speaker 2: So how is he ever going to understand these concepts

446
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,880
Speaker 2: that this is something much larger that's kind of hovering

447
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 2: around his existence? And so I'll turn it back to

448
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 2: Catherine because I know, I know you're better at talking

449
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 2: about this space.

450
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 3: Well, the one thing I wanted to add to that

451
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 3: is not only had Wayne's father left with them, an

452
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 3: abusive alcoholic left the family and not paid any child support,

453
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 3: he also had shot at Wayne twice to kill him.

454
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 1: Wow.

455
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 3: And so this is a kid who you know, is

456
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 3: trying to figure out what to do, and Mary Henley

457
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 3: sees a big brother coming along in the form of

458
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 3: Dean Coral. Like, you know, that's helpful because she's got

459
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 3: three other boys she's got to be taken care of

460
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 3: who are younger than Wayne, and to her mind, at

461
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 3: least he's got, you know, a male, adult, male figure

462
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 3: in his life who replaces this violent male who might

463
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 3: come around at any time and commit some kind of violence.

464
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 3: So we can excuse her in some ways because Korl

465
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,919
Speaker 3: was an affable, good natured guy that just seemed like

466
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 3: he really liked hanging out with these boys.

467
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 1: I have to say I'm a little surprised that after

468
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 1: this burglary, Korl went to a threat rather than like

469
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 1: deepening the seduction or do I have that completely wrong.

470
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 1: It just seems like it was like, no, you're staying

471
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,640
Speaker 1: and here's why, and rather than like really really grooming.

472
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:37,120
Speaker 1: You know.

473
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,360
Speaker 3: It took a while. He first talked with Wayne when

474
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 3: Wayne was fourteen and kind of sized him up and

475
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 3: as a victim first of all, and told David to

476
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 3: bring him on in. That didn't go well. Wayne was

477
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 3: able to foil that attempt, and then Coral began to

478
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 3: bring him in, like take him for rise in his car.

479
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 3: There was a bit of seduction ahead of time, and

480
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 3: then start talking about the human trafficking and saying, you know,

481
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 3: there are these people who do buy and sell, you know, others,

482
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 3: and some of these boys, they would we could pick

483
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,159
Speaker 3: them up, sell them for a lot of money, and

484
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 3: they'd be taking over to California to be someone's pool boy.

485
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,439
Speaker 3: Everybody wins, so you get some money, I get some money.

486
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 3: They have a much better life that they stuck around

487
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 3: here in the Houston Heights. And he worked on Wayne,

488
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 3: and worked on Wayne until Wayne thought well that actually

489
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 3: does sound like it's okay. And he then helped to

490
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 3: bring in a hitchhiker and that's really where he got

491
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 3: leverage at that point. Now he's known Coral for I

492
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 3: think I was a year before he actually gets involved

493
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 3: in that series of a crime. He had done some

494
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 3: of the petty crimes earlier, but in this case, he

495
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 3: brings in a hitchhiker thinking Quarrel's going to sell him

496
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 3: to California, and then he finds out he killed him,

497
00:28:57,920 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 3: and now Coral says, and you were part of it

498
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 3: at and there's no getting out, Tracy.

499
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 1: Can we go back to the first time that Henley

500
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 1: encounters Quarrel, when Brooks brings him in and doctor Ramselin

501
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 1: just said, you know that the encounter doesn't go well,

502
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: and the intention is at first for him to be victim.

503
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 1: I don't know how graphic it is, but you can

504
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: you kind of tell me what what ends up happening

505
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 1: with that scene.

506
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 2: Actually, Catherine, I might need to refer back to you,

507
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 2: because is this the time where King Coral lifts up

508
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 2: a knife. Yes, and he tries to see what the

509
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 2: reaction will be. You're better at describing that story.

510
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 3: David tells him, tells Wayne he's kind of passed the

511
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 3: test and we're going to meet behind the church. Don't

512
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 3: tell anyone where you're going because there's a big, big,

513
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 3: top secret meeting and the syndicate is is kind of

514
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 3: checking you out as a potential person who could who

515
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 3: could go up in the ranks. And so he he says,

516
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 3: meete us fan the church. So Wayne goes. They pick

517
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 3: him up, take him to Coral's apartment. They drive around

518
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 3: because they don't want him to know exactly where carel

519
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 3: lives and they're intending he's going to be one of

520
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 3: these victims. So if they bring him to Quarrel's apartment

521
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 3: and there's like a breakfast bar, kind of area where

522
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 3: they're leaning over talking to David disappears. Quarrel then pulls

523
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 3: out a large knife, like a hunting knife, and starts

524
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 3: coming around the bar to Wayne and talking to him

525
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 3: about what would you do? Would would you be able

526
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 3: to if somebody discovered you and you really had to

527
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 3: do something about eliminating a witness? What are you up

528
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 3: to this? Could you do this? And he's slowly, slowly

529
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 3: making his way in the position he would always get

530
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,959
Speaker 3: in when he'd tackle a boy to the ground and

531
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 3: bind him. So he's about to do that. David comes

532
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 3: out of the back room and says, you didn't tell

533
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 3: anyone where you were, did you, And quick thinking Wayne says,

534
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 3: I told my mother, and Coral backs off tells David

535
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 3: to take him home and that was the end of that.

536
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: For a church kid, he has some street smarts on

537
00:30:57,840 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: him a little bit.

538
00:30:58,520 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 2: That's great.

539
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 3: Well, he said, he's a pretty smart guy. He was

540
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 3: probably he was a very engaging person to interview because

541
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 3: he reads a lot. He's very self educated. So yeah,

542
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 3: he was thinking like it just felt wrong to him,

543
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 3: like and he doesn't like to be touched, and he

544
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,719
Speaker 3: felt like Korl was about to come behind him, and

545
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 3: it was just giving him the creeps with his knife,

546
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 3: and he just realized here's his way out really quickly.

547
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 3: And he was probably lucky because and he actually had

548
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 3: told his mother, and he wasn't going to reveal that

549
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 3: to them because he didn't want them thinking he was

550
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 3: a silly little boy. But he told his mother everything,

551
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 3: so he had told her and it was just an

552
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 3: easy thing to say. I told my mother, I'm here.

553
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 2: Wow.

554
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 1: Well, Tracy, let's go back to you know, there's the

555
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 1: burglary that's happening when he's fifteen, I guess. And then

556
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 1: we move forward to you know, he's bringing these these

557
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: boys in to what he thinks is going to be

558
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: sold to California and becoming you know, pool boys on

559
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 1: a lavish estate. I assume what is that's the moment

560
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 1: where he figures out that this is not what's happening

561
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: to these boys?

562
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 3: Does he see something.

563
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 2: Which friend of his Catherine did he bring in David A.

564
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,719
Speaker 3: Gary? It wasn't a string of boys. Is the hitchhiker?

565
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 3: Then he came over with a friend named Franka Gary,

566
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 3: and that's that's when he was told, you don't have

567
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 3: any control over.

568
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 2: This and so basically this is a good friend of his,

569
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 2: Franka Geary, and he's thinking he's bringing Frank over for

570
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 2: the same opportunities that he has and that he's kind

571
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 2: of cutting him in. And I believe with a hitchhiker

572
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 2: and Catherine, if you could verify this is when Dean

573
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 2: Coral starts to propose, you know what, I'm going to

574
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 2: give you a cut of the money. And so we

575
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 2: from what we understood, he was getting two hundred dollars

576
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 2: for that victim. So that's a lot of money. That

577
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 2: kind of money during nineteen seventy one would buy a car,

578
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 2: you know, a used car, but still a car. And

579
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 2: so basically he's thinking to himself, Okay, I'm going to

580
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 2: cut my friend Frank ggury in. Frank Geary arrives and

581
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 2: Dean Coral turns the tables and he is coming after

582
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 2: Franka Geary and Emily Henley has to participate in this

583
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 2: in a way that he was absolutely not prepared to do.

584
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 2: And so at that point, not only does he realize

585
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 2: that Dean Coral is going to be able to kill

586
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,719
Speaker 2: one of his friends, but that he is deeper and

587
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 2: deeper into this and he's trying to make sense out

588
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 2: of it because he is religious. He does believe in God,

589
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 2: and this is a point at which he starts to think, wait,

590
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:34,719
Speaker 2: I'm not going to be able to get out of this,

591
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 2: and I'm losing my faith that anybody will pull me

592
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 2: out of this. And this is when his mind his

593
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 2: morals changed and I believe that he understood this is

594
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 2: what I'm going to be given in life.

595
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 3: Well it was actually I'm just intervening a little bit

596
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 3: because he was David was told to take him home

597
00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 3: so he wouldn't witness the murder of Frank Gar. But

598
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 3: he was told that's what happened to the hitchhiker, that's

599
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 3: just going to happen to this guy. And then not

600
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 3: much happened for about a month, and Wayne was then

601
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 3: brought in to kill that he had to do this

602
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 3: and that you know, his faith is he wrote in

603
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 3: how can God allow this? Now he has to step

604
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 3: to the plate and show that he can do it

605
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 3: with a kid that Kor wants to get rid of

606
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 3: because he's given him some trouble, and Wayne has to

607
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 3: do it is to strangle him. He can't do it

608
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 3: on his own because he's just a scronic kid. But

609
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 3: once it's done, he sits in the front room and

610
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 3: just says, if God doesn't strike me dead now, there

611
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 3: just can't be a God who cares about this, And

612
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 3: that was kind of the end of it for him.

613
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:52,279
Speaker 3: And thereafter he falls into doing what kor wants him

614
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:53,839
Speaker 3: to do because he doesn't know what else to do.

615
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 3: If he had gone to the police wanting about Franka Gary,

616
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 3: he thinks the police probably went I listened to him.

617
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 3: He's just a kid, and Korl as an adult. And

618
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 3: then there's the syndicate, and even if Korl gets arrested,

619
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,320
Speaker 3: they're going to come after him too, and maybe his family.

620
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 3: So he has no resources and now he's in this

621
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 3: horrific position of I have actually murdered somebody.

622
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 1: Do we have a sense for whether Mary Henley had

623
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 1: a sense for anything going wrong in this time period,

624
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 1: since she knows her son so well.

625
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 2: You know, by day I think that Elmer Wayne Henley

626
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 2: compartmentalized these things and he felt very responsible to his

627
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,760
Speaker 2: mother and to his youngest brothers, and so he would

628
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 2: go about being the family man that he knew he

629
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 2: wanted or needed to be. And then as night came around,

630
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 2: he would make excuses, he would go back to Dean

631
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 2: Coral and this is what a lot of people talk about.

632
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 2: He kept going back to Dean Coral. Well, he was

633
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 2: under so much pressure and in terms of both you know,

634
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 2: getting a monetary reward as well as the manipulation and

635
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 2: threats he's getting from QORL, that he doesn't see much

636
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 2: option for what's going on. The one thing he does

637
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 2: start doing is he has these two men in his

638
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 2: life who are like extended uncles. They're not blood relations,

639
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,240
Speaker 2: but they're people that he trusts. And he starts to say, look,

640
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 2: I'm in this terribly compromised position. This is what's been

641
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 2: going on, and I can tell you that even police

642
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 2: at this time didn't really have an imagination for what

643
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 2: was possible. How were these uncles going to know? So

644
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 2: they both refute him and say, you sound like you're insane,

645
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 2: you sound like you're on drugs, and they do not

646
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 2: try to help him, and eventually he does try to

647
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 2: tell Mary Henley. He writes down everything that's been happening

648
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 2: for him, and he gives her this note. This is

649
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 2: towards the very end. She looks at the note, she

650
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 2: reads it and she thinks my son has gone insane.

651
00:36:55,480 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 2: He definitely needs some type of psychological support. She rips

652
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 2: up the note and she said, I'm going to get

653
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 2: you help, therapeutic help, but doesn't validate the story, doesn't

654
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 2: offer to help him in any other way.

655
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 1: When Henley draws in Franka Gary and this terrible thing happens,

656
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,399
Speaker 1: does his family, you know, rattle the cages and say

657
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 1: we need this. You know, this is not a kid

658
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:23,840
Speaker 1: who would have run away. We need to know what happened.

659
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 1: And the police ignore it. This is seems like a

660
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:28,240
Speaker 1: neighborhood kid who would have been missed.

661
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 3: He's one of those that they dismissed is to run away.

662
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 3: He was engaged to a girl, he had a job,

663
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 3: he was you know, still in school, and the police

664
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 3: didn't do anything.

665
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 1: What happens next? What's kind of the big incident? Do

666
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 1: we go on for another year or two years?

667
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 3: What happens?

668
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:47,320
Speaker 1: This just keeps happening.

669
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:51,840
Speaker 3: What happened when Wayne killed his first victim, Mark Scott?

670
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 3: He was still fifteen, just about to turn sixteen, and

671
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 3: he thought, okay, I've proven myself. This is awful bath

672
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 3: that's got to be the word. And then the next month,

673
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 3: there's two together. Two boys are brought in together, and

674
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 3: he's faced with now you're going to help us with

675
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 3: two of them, And that's the point at which I

676
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 3: think he realized I'm not getting out of this. This

677
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 3: is not easy. There were a few more that year.

678
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 3: He tried to move away to another town where his

679
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 3: cousin lived, but then David told him, you know, Dean's

680
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 3: eyeing your younger brother. So we thought I got to

681
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 3: get back to Houston and make sure I keep an

682
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 3: eye on this. Then he tries to join the Navy

683
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 3: and he doesn't get in as well. He's trying any

684
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:39,399
Speaker 3: which way he can to get out of this. When

685
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,879
Speaker 3: he finds he can't, he just falls into it. I'm

686
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 3: his henchman. I have to do this. And there's the

687
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 3: summer of nineteen seventy three before he killed Kral. That

688
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 3: entire summer is just one after another, and not just

689
00:38:55,320 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 3: with using David and Wayne. Sometimes Coral what acts own

690
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 3: and go get a victim. I mean, when we hear

691
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 3: the figure twenty seven, twenty eight, twenty nine, these two

692
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 3: accomplices weren't involved in all of those. Coral would often

693
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,399
Speaker 3: have done his own two and We don't really even

694
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 3: know the final number because one victim was found on

695
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 3: the beach unrelated to any of the burial sites, so

696
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 3: we don't know if there might have been more. He

697
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 3: talked to David Brooks about having killed in California. We

698
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 3: haven't tied him to a victim there or more victims,

699
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:32,879
Speaker 3: so we actually don't know his complete victim toll. And

700
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:37,399
Speaker 3: David was involved with more than Wayne, but Wayne during

701
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 3: the summer the year nineteen seventy three was really very

702
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,919
Speaker 3: active and just felt like I've tried to get out

703
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 3: and I don't see a way.

704
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 1: I know you all probably know more about Henley than

705
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 1: you know about Brooks. Can you tell me the difference,

706
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: But I don't know if it's the psychological difference between

707
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 1: these two teenagers who are working for this terrible man.

708
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 3: Yeah. I when I look at David Brooks, I think

709
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 3: he was really because he had no parental support, nothing

710
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 3: from his family. He was made to feel like a

711
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 3: total loser. He was a dropout. He sold drugs in

712
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 3: the park to other kids, and he did nothing to

713
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 3: stop coral. He overlooked, he saw murders, he brought kids

714
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 3: to him. He saw young like thirteen year olds in

715
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:28,359
Speaker 3: Coral's room, and he would do nothing. He helped him,

716
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 3: He moved with him and moved around with them. So

717
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 3: I see that being different from Wayne. I did it

718
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 3: since when David finally came in and confessed the place

719
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:39,959
Speaker 3: and basically threw Wayne under the bus, I didn't see

720
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 3: any sense that he thought what Chorl did was wrong.

721
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:45,799
Speaker 3: In fact, he said, well, he said to me, these

722
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 3: are boys that nobody cares about. They're just like hitchhikers

723
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 3: and runaways, and you can't dropouts that they're like losers.

724
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 3: Why does anybody care what happened to them? I mean,

725
00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 3: these are the kinds of statements he would make, so

726
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 3: it shows that he really had no sense of concern

727
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 3: about what he was doing. He would not give interviews

728
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 3: to the media afterward, and he had a wife and child,

729
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,399
Speaker 3: so it could be that he was shielding them. But

730
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 3: there was never a time in any of the statements

731
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 3: of police that he really expressed a sense of remorse.

732
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 3: And he certainly had opportunities when he was with Quorl

733
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,879
Speaker 3: to do something before Wayne ever even came into it.

734
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 3: He could have told Wayne before he brought him in,

735
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 3: So there is a difference between them, and I see

736
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:38,880
Speaker 3: David Brooks as being more of a youth at risk

737
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 3: for adult psychopathy in a way that I don't think

738
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 3: Henley was.

739
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,400
Speaker 1: He sounds angry, maybe just by being discorded by his

740
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:49,879
Speaker 1: own family, and now he's happy to take it out

741
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 1: on these kids or watch somebody else do it.

742
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 3: I think he just had a real lackadaisical attitude. He

743
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 3: was also a doper. I mean, he just didn't care

744
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 3: about much to Coral, you know, was killed and they

745
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 3: got together. Wayne says that they had talked about killing

746
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 3: Coral because they were worried he was really getting out

747
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:13,280
Speaker 3: of control. And David was with Coral with his last victim,

748
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 3: which is a thirteen year old boy that he basically

749
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:19,360
Speaker 3: snapped from the street out riding his bike, and David

750
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 3: brings him a pizza and things. Well, I gave him

751
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 3: a pizza, I mean that was that. Was there anything

752
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 3: else I could do for him? At least I was

753
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,919
Speaker 3: nice to him. So that's the kind of memo set

754
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 3: he had of you know, whatever, this is Coral's thing,

755
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 3: Nobody's going to do anything about it. And so it's

756
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 3: not really anger so much as just I don't really

757
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 3: see beyond what's going to happen with my life? Even

758
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 3: though he had a wife and child, he had just

759
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 3: gotten married Tracy.

760
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 1: This seems like this has gone on for three years, right?

761
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 1: Is it two years or three years?

762
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 3: At this point, it's three years three years starting with Coral,

763
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 3: three years because he acted on his own first.

764
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 1: So what is the next big incident? Does anything happen

765
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:06,880
Speaker 1: before the murder takes place.

766
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 2: So really, you know, it's almost spiraling out of control.

767
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 2: Dean Coral's telling his mother that he thinks something bad

768
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,839
Speaker 2: is going to happen. He wants to move to Colorado

769
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 2: where she is. He's telling Wayne that he should come

770
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 2: with him, and Wayne is thinking maybe he's going to

771
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 2: take his friend to Ronda Williams because she's having a

772
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 2: bad home life. So there's just a lot of indication that,

773
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 2: you know, there's more upheaval than necessary. Dean Coral is

774
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 2: always receiving correspondence at a post office box, so neither

775
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 2: Wayne Henley nor David Brooks knows exactly what he's getting

776
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,800
Speaker 2: in the mail. He keeps a lot secret from them,

777
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,399
Speaker 2: and both of them get very paranoid about that. And

778
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 2: it's really when things come to a header where Wayne's

779
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:58,479
Speaker 2: thinking he's going to So, first of all, Dean Coral says,

780
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,719
Speaker 2: bring your friend Tim Curlely. I really like him. I

781
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:05,800
Speaker 2: want to have sex with him. And Wayne brings Tim Curley,

782
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 2: but he also brings Rand to Williams. They've been partying

783
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 2: together at Tim's house. They're going over to Dean Coral's

784
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:17,919
Speaker 2: and Dean immediately says to Wayne, why would you bring

785
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:22,240
Speaker 2: a girl here? And Wayne, who's been raised by women

786
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 2: who have always been on his side, thinks, I need

787
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 2: to protect this girl. So, as Dean Coral is setting

788
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 2: this up so that both Tim Curley and Rand of

789
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 2: Williams are going to be abused, they're going to be restrained. Wayne,

790
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:39,240
Speaker 2: who's kind of high and out of it. It's it's

791
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 2: you know, late in the morning, you know, initially says

792
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 2: he's going to assist. You know, I think that he's

793
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 2: restrained Wayne as well. He unrestrains Wayne. Wayne picks up

794
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 2: a gun and Dean says, you're not gonna You're not

795
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 2: gonna shoot that at me and Dean it always told Wayne,

796
00:44:57,719 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 2: if you're going to shoot a gun, make sure the

797
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 2: person you're shooting dies. Make sure they're dead. Before you

798
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 2: stop shooting, and Wayne just starts shooting. And you can

799
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 2: see in the evidentiary photographs of Dean Coral he's backed

800
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 2: up against a wall. He's obviously fallen against the wall.

801
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 2: There are bullet holes, you know, in his skin, He's naked,

802
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 2: and this is how police find him. And so this

803
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 2: is what Almayne Henley is up against, a man who

804
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:30,400
Speaker 2: keeps coming at him while he's shooting him, saying you

805
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 2: won't kill me. And Catherine and I have actually wondered

806
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 2: if this was a way that Dean Coral saw for

807
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 2: him to almost commit suicide and that he really was

808
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,360
Speaker 2: at the end of his rope. Obviously, Amiwayn Henley was

809
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:47,720
Speaker 2: at the end of his rope and was no longer

810
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:52,759
Speaker 2: going to continue participating. And so once he you know,

811
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 2: unbinds Tim Curley and Randa Williams, they go out of

812
00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:01,399
Speaker 2: the house, they call police, they wait for police, and

813
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 2: from what Elma, Wayne Henley says, he's relieved. He's going

814
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:08,319
Speaker 2: to tell them everything. And the thing that you know,

815
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,320
Speaker 2: when we started digging into the hundreds of pages of

816
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,880
Speaker 2: police reports, the first thing you see from both Wayne

817
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 2: and David Brooks is that there is a syndicate at large.

818
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 2: They had both been informed about this syndicate. At one point,

819
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:26,359
Speaker 2: Almoyn Henley had told his friend that it almost felt

820
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:28,840
Speaker 2: like being in The Godfather, which was a big film

821
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 2: at that time. You know that he was part of

822
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 2: something much larger, much like the Mafia. So he had

823
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 2: some understanding, but it also seemed to have this era

824
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 2: of mystery for him. It's only four days later that

825
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:46,719
Speaker 2: in Dallas, which is where both David Brooks and elm

826
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 2: Wayne Henley felt that syndicate was based, that a man

827
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 2: named John David Norman is arrested because there is a

828
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 2: young man working with him that says he thought he

829
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 2: was supposed to be sent to Dean Coral and he

830
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:04,240
Speaker 2: raises the alarm. So this is four days later police

831
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:09,399
Speaker 2: in Dallas raid John David Norman's apartment in Dallas. They

832
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 2: find just tons of pornography, evidence of trafficking, tons of marijuana.

833
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:18,240
Speaker 2: The way that the Elmowyn Henley and David Brooks described

834
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 2: this was that it was kind of a gambling and

835
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 2: prostitution ring. You know that there were a lot of

836
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 2: different facets to it, but the overall notion is that

837
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 2: there's a lot of money being made by this individual,

838
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 2: and this individual isn't working alone. So then you start

839
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 2: to see, Wait, John David Norman's arrested, but almost immediately

840
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 2: bonds out. He's got plenty of money, and he almost

841
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 2: immediately goes to Chicago, the Chicago area, where he not

842
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 2: only starts to abuse again, but you start seeing him

843
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:53,320
Speaker 2: crosspads with John Wayne Gacy.

844
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:56,959
Speaker 1: Unbelievable, I mean, what a tie in. Give me the

845
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 1: timeline of John Wayne Gacy. How long after this happens

846
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 1: with Quarrel is the discovery of John Wayne Gacy and

847
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:06,840
Speaker 1: everything that he did. When did that happen?

848
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 2: So this happens in August of nineteen seventy three. By

849
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 2: October of nineteen seventy three, John David Norman is in Chicago.

850
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:18,320
Speaker 2: John Wayne Gacy is not discovered until December of nineteen

851
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 2: seventy eight. Wow, so he has five more years that

852
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:25,319
Speaker 2: he's going to continue to abuse and kill people. But

853
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:28,759
Speaker 2: it's very difficult to dismiss that these people are in

854
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 2: the same line of business, and they're ultimately connected by

855
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 2: an individual named Phil Pasky that's an employee of John

856
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:39,360
Speaker 2: Wayne Gacy's, but it's also named as John David Norman's

857
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:43,799
Speaker 2: right hand man. So when you think about a young

858
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 2: boy like Elma Wayne Henley entering into somebody who's we

859
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 2: already have discussed, is sadistic, he's a killer. But then

860
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:55,400
Speaker 2: when you look at the larger ring where this individual

861
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:58,840
Speaker 2: John David Norman, you know, is going to Chicago to

862
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:00,880
Speaker 2: meet with John wayn gaycay See, who we know is

863
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 2: one of our other, like the largest serial murderers. To

864
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:07,919
Speaker 2: see that those two things are connected then makes you

865
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 2: realize what he was up against.

866
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 1: Have we heard of these kinds of circumstances before with

867
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 1: any other serial killers when they're connected to a much

868
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 1: larger syndicate with pornography and sex work and everything else.

869
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 2: I think that you know, we were talking, you and

870
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 2: I Catherine were talking yesterday about the trash bag killer,

871
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:30,720
Speaker 2: and so when you think about that potentially being strung

872
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:34,360
Speaker 2: into this. We started looking at the ring during the

873
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 2: John Wyng Gaycy research we did, and we saw that

874
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 2: there were, you know, summer camps established in North Fox Island, Michigan,

875
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:46,640
Speaker 2: where predators that are associated with this ring were having

876
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,839
Speaker 2: young boys come from the city so they could have

877
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:53,840
Speaker 2: the refreshing air of the countryside during the summertime, camps

878
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 2: that are supported by state and federal grants, and it's

879
00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:00,439
Speaker 2: proven that all these boys that went there are being

880
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:01,800
Speaker 2: abused and trafficked.

881
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:05,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's recently a documentary, I think Children of the

882
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:10,440
Speaker 3: Snow where the babysitter serial killer in Michigan is related

883
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:14,040
Speaker 3: to this island retreat that Tracey's talking about, and they

884
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 3: had a lot of documentation that the killers of these

885
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 3: kids were associated with this group.

886
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 1: Well, back to the story, I remember you saying that

887
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 1: David Brooks came in and confessed at some point. Is

888
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 1: that right.

889
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 3: He didn't confess so much as back up to where

890
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:33,400
Speaker 3: Wayne calls in that he's killed porl And as soon

891
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:35,920
Speaker 3: as they put him in the police car. So what

892
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:38,840
Speaker 3: he looks like is he's a hero. He has saved

893
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 3: these other two kids. He's killed, you know, Dean Coral,

894
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:45,759
Speaker 3: it's all self defense. He looks he's looking pretty good.

895
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 3: But he immediately says he talked about having burying some

896
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 3: kids in this boat shed in South Houston, and they

897
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 3: kind of dismissed him, similar to the way they dismissed

898
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:01,440
Speaker 3: the whole they're all runaways, until he started naming names

899
00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 3: that they found to be on missing person's list, and

900
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 3: then they thought, all right, let us take him down

901
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:10,839
Speaker 3: there and see, still not really quite believing it. Then

902
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:14,280
Speaker 3: get to the boat stall and it's just this small

903
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:17,360
Speaker 3: it's not even outside stall, it's the it's in the middle.

904
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 3: They opened it. There's just some junk in there or

905
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 3: an old car, but there's a kid's bike and they

906
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 3: know the bike has recently been stolen, with a kid

907
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 3: missing the week before, and it turns out the bike

908
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 3: is that kid's bike, and the car is stolen, and

909
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:36,759
Speaker 3: there's a rake with white rosin on the tongs, and

910
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:39,840
Speaker 3: there's a shovel and there's so they start digging. It

911
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 3: was didn't take long for them to find the thirteen

912
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 3: year old boy wrapped in plastic, buried there. So now

913
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:48,799
Speaker 3: they know they've built a long night ahead, and they

914
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:54,280
Speaker 3: end up unearthing multiple bodies. And at that point David

915
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,719
Speaker 3: comes in because he's hearing this on the news and

916
00:51:57,760 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 3: he wants to say, well, you know, I lived with

917
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 3: Coral and nothing like this happened in front of me.

918
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 3: And his father was allowed to be in there with

919
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 3: him because his father had given these moonlighting jobs to

920
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:14,839
Speaker 3: some of the cops, so they bent the rules for him,

921
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:18,399
Speaker 3: and because his father was in there, Brooks was not

922
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:21,359
Speaker 3: going to really say much. He sort of threw Wayne

923
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 3: under the bus, then gave a second statement when they

924
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 3: basically said, we know you're much more a part of this.

925
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:29,239
Speaker 3: They put him in Wayne together into a room and

926
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 3: Wayne said, if you don't start talking, I'm talking. So

927
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:35,880
Speaker 3: you should start telling the truth. You'll feel better. So

928
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 3: then David gives second statement, admits he's seen some kids

929
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:43,399
Speaker 3: who ended up being murdered and that all he was

930
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 3: was the driver to the burial sites. And eventually the

931
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 3: third statement he gives just about one victim, and that's

932
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 3: what nails him essentially. But he's not willing to take

933
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 3: any responsibility whatsoever for this. But he does go to

934
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:03,399
Speaker 3: one of the burial locations, High Island Beach. At this point,

935
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:06,280
Speaker 3: Wayne's already taken with a boat stall to a lake

936
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 3: where four are buried, and they're on their way to

937
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 3: High Island Beach where six are buried, and so the

938
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 3: two of them. But the odd thing is for me,

939
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 3: Brooks never says. And here they are together, face to

940
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 3: base on the beach. There are photos of them sitting

941
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:25,400
Speaker 3: together Brooks never says, so you did it. You finally

942
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:29,359
Speaker 3: did it. And I found that so odd because supposedly

943
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:33,880
Speaker 3: they had discussed killing Corel, but instead all Brooks seases,

944
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:36,239
Speaker 3: you ruined my life. Had a wife, I've got a

945
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:39,760
Speaker 3: kid coming. You basically ruined my life. Wow.

946
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 1: So what happens next? In the legal wheels are grinding here?

947
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:47,600
Speaker 1: Is there a plea deal? Do they go to trial?

948
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 3: They went to trial. There was a grand jury hearing

949
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:55,080
Speaker 3: and Wayne gave a very detailed statement and took responsibility

950
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:58,479
Speaker 3: for the murders of a number of boys. And they

951
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:02,359
Speaker 3: made a determination to try him for six because they

952
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:05,000
Speaker 3: had the bodies one of the ones he confessed to

953
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:08,279
Speaker 3: they didn't have the body for because they closed down

954
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 3: the beach operation too soon before they found this particular one.

955
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:16,120
Speaker 3: But so he had confessed and he had named names

956
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:18,839
Speaker 3: that he was implicated in. So they had a grand

957
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:22,359
Speaker 3: jury hearing for both of them together, and then they

958
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:23,520
Speaker 3: were both going to trial.

959
00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:26,359
Speaker 1: So tell me a little bit more about that. How

960
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:29,799
Speaker 1: did the media frame Tracy all of this? What was

961
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 1: the optics of these two teenagers, these you know, neighborhood

962
00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:37,120
Speaker 1: boys who had become involved with this older man who was,

963
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 1: you know, highly involved in the community and just seemed

964
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:44,439
Speaker 1: like somebody who was totally normal, and this just must

965
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:46,560
Speaker 1: have been a can of worms all over the place

966
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 1: that the community couldn't believe.

967
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 2: And I want to start creating a parallel which is

968
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 2: why I started to dig into this case. After I

969
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:58,480
Speaker 2: had researched the Gacy case. What you have are people

970
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:04,800
Speaker 2: within one enforcement and prosecution starting to really craft a narrative.

971
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:08,960
Speaker 2: It's ignored in police reports that an individual comes forward

972
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:12,759
Speaker 2: and says there is pornography of these young men that

973
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:15,800
Speaker 2: would widen out the case. We look in the police

974
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:18,400
Speaker 2: records and after this is told to them, they do

975
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 2: nothing to research that we can see. There's no evidence

976
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:25,240
Speaker 2: that they did. Even further, even though John David Norman

977
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,839
Speaker 2: is somebody that's afoot, police deny that out of hand.

978
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:32,880
Speaker 2: There's absolutely no connection between John David Norman and this case.

979
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:35,279
Speaker 2: Even though you have a young man saying I was

980
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:38,439
Speaker 2: supposed to be sent to Dane Coral and I think

981
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:41,840
Speaker 2: that we know, you know, birds of a feather flock together.

982
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:44,839
Speaker 2: So this was something that just doesn't make sense to

983
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:48,560
Speaker 2: us in the modern day. So you see the victims

984
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 2: being almost made responsible for their own demise. These are

985
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:58,359
Speaker 2: kids that are associated with a perverted psychopath who's homosexual.

986
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:03,399
Speaker 2: And instead of making this an issue whereby you know,

987
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:08,240
Speaker 2: Dean Coral is you know, he's a completely different animal altogether.

988
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:11,840
Speaker 2: He has nothing to do with homosexuality. He has everything

989
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 2: to do with predation, sadism, murder, And so you have

990
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:20,279
Speaker 2: this huge upheople in the United States while are all

991
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 2: gay men murderers, killers, defilers, and so you have this

992
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:29,839
Speaker 2: blowback where the gay community is trying to say, look,

993
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:33,280
Speaker 2: we're just living our lives. Even though you might see

994
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:37,719
Speaker 2: this as perversion, it's a very normal sexual disposition, and

995
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:40,880
Speaker 2: so trying to kind of cut that in half is

996
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 2: something where again the victims are seen as somehow tainted. So,

997
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:49,320
Speaker 2: you know, you don't have a ton of parents, especially

998
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:52,520
Speaker 2: given you know, kind of the amount of religion in

999
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:54,719
Speaker 2: Texas at the time. You have people wanting to turn

1000
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:58,000
Speaker 2: away from this, people who aren't going to be aggressive

1001
00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:01,719
Speaker 2: about trying to find answers. It's kind of made to

1002
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:05,600
Speaker 2: be elmawayn Henley's problem. He's the one who propagated this.

1003
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 2: Dean Coral's mother says as much, Dean Coral is dead

1004
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:13,239
Speaker 2: nobody can help you hold him accountable. He ultimately as

1005
00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 2: somebody who served in the army, is given a proper

1006
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:22,040
Speaker 2: burial in an army cemetery, while Elmawayn Henley is created

1007
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:25,720
Speaker 2: into public enemy number one. And so this kid who's

1008
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:29,520
Speaker 2: still not even eighteen is being paraded around as somebody

1009
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:33,280
Speaker 2: who is willing to talk, somebody who's boasting about his

1010
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:37,200
Speaker 2: crimes somebody, and so he's kind of created. No matter

1011
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:40,680
Speaker 2: what he says, he's deemed to be evil beyond you know,

1012
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:43,959
Speaker 2: compare and so, and we found this in the John

1013
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:48,000
Speaker 2: Wayne Gacy case two, where police started looking or at

1014
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:52,480
Speaker 2: least the media started looking at victims as somehow responsible

1015
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:55,200
Speaker 2: for their own demise because of their drug use, because

1016
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:59,560
Speaker 2: of their sexual predilictions. And so you're able to both

1017
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 2: dismiss these accomplices who are not full accomplices and yet

1018
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:08,520
Speaker 2: are being blamed for all I mean people have, you know,

1019
00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:12,400
Speaker 2: very casually said Elmo Weyn Henley murdered twenty eight kids.

1020
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:15,800
Speaker 2: He did not, and he wasn't the driving force for

1021
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:20,320
Speaker 2: these murders. And so once that gets crafted as a narrative,

1022
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 2: the pornography is ignored. Any larger sex trafficking ring isn't discovered,

1023
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 2: then Almo Weayn Henley has to bear the brunt of

1024
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:31,800
Speaker 2: all of this, so he gets, you know, five hundred

1025
00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 2: and eighty plus years in prison. He's discredited. There's nothing

1026
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:39,880
Speaker 2: that he can say that would make him look less

1027
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:44,360
Speaker 2: than wicked. And so the people that are in power

1028
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 2: that may have benefited from a sex trafficking ring, the

1029
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:51,000
Speaker 2: people who find this kind of messy and it's tough

1030
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:55,520
Speaker 2: to prosecute that might not know exactly what happened. Everybody

1031
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:59,320
Speaker 2: goes with as much simpler narrative and walks away, and

1032
00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:04,600
Speaker 2: history for fifty years ignores this. But it's important for

1033
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 2: us to know that this was one of the largest

1034
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:10,680
Speaker 2: sex trafficking rings were unaware of. It's important to know,

1035
00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:14,320
Speaker 2: as doctor Ramsland states in the back of the book,

1036
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:18,440
Speaker 2: there are ways of getting kids out of these situations,

1037
00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:22,880
Speaker 2: helping them that adults can do to intervening. Today, this

1038
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:26,320
Speaker 2: is not a subject that's lost in history. This is

1039
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:30,080
Speaker 2: something that is even more prevalent than it was during

1040
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:32,080
Speaker 2: this time because of the Internet.

1041
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:36,000
Speaker 1: Do you think doctor Ramsland, that the nuances of these

1042
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:40,720
Speaker 1: relationships between these three people with Brooks and Henley and coral.

1043
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:44,480
Speaker 1: Would those nuances be brought out today? Knowing what we

1044
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:48,200
Speaker 1: know about you know, we're much more of course enlightened

1045
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:51,919
Speaker 1: about the difference between predators and people who are gay,

1046
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:54,200
Speaker 1: all of this stuff. It seems like some of that

1047
00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:58,200
Speaker 1: mess might be cut away from a story that happened today.

1048
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:01,920
Speaker 3: I think it depends in the jury diction, frankly, because

1049
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:06,400
Speaker 3: you certainly still see those same black and white attitudes,

1050
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:11,960
Speaker 3: unwillingness to look at nuances, unwillingness to give any ground

1051
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:15,760
Speaker 3: to something like that, you know, the teenage brain research.

1052
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:20,600
Speaker 3: So I even I mean, I've recently had some encounters

1053
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:24,080
Speaker 3: with a prosecutor who stated exactly what I just said,

1054
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:27,919
Speaker 3: not giving any ground on this. These kids killed blah

1055
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:30,800
Speaker 3: blah blah. You know, this is in a place you

1056
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:33,720
Speaker 3: think would be more enlightened, but no. So I think

1057
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:37,680
Speaker 3: it really depends on who's handling it, what mental health

1058
01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:42,560
Speaker 3: resources are available for explanation, and you know, trying to

1059
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:45,040
Speaker 3: really just trying to deal with all that we do

1060
01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:49,040
Speaker 3: know about them, and whether someone's willing to apploy that

1061
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:52,400
Speaker 3: to a given situation, Because as soon as something happens,

1062
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:57,480
Speaker 3: there's a lot of reaction, and social media just echoes

1063
01:00:57,520 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 3: that and magnifies it and distorts it and does all

1064
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:05,360
Speaker 3: kinds of stuff with it and inspire under rage. I mean, really,

1065
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:09,320
Speaker 3: you'll see if people on social media this true crime

1066
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:15,360
Speaker 3: culture where they're ready to lynch somebody without giving any

1067
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:20,120
Speaker 3: thought to some of the factors involved, that might mitigate.

1068
01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:23,200
Speaker 3: So I just think it really depends on the situation

1069
01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:24,520
Speaker 3: and where it happens.

1070
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:27,440
Speaker 1: Kind Of as we wrap up here, Wayne Henley, what

1071
01:01:27,640 --> 01:01:32,400
Speaker 1: is his general outlook on life? Because he has life

1072
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:34,760
Speaker 1: in prison. Life does not stop once you're in prison.

1073
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:37,640
Speaker 1: I'm assuming that he's created some kind of a community,

1074
01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:40,320
Speaker 1: some kind of family or something there what is happening

1075
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:40,760
Speaker 1: with him.

1076
01:01:41,080 --> 01:01:43,880
Speaker 3: He tends to create his family with people who write

1077
01:01:43,880 --> 01:01:47,400
Speaker 3: to him more than inside the prison. He's been in

1078
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:50,080
Speaker 3: prison fifty one years, but he's been moved around a lot,

1079
01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:53,120
Speaker 3: and a number of people that he was friends with

1080
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:56,520
Speaker 3: them gotten out, and I think under most circumstances he

1081
01:01:56,640 --> 01:01:59,520
Speaker 3: would have been at this point, because fifty one years

1082
01:01:59,560 --> 01:02:03,360
Speaker 3: is a long time, and there are people in similar

1083
01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:08,120
Speaker 3: circumstances who have been paroled, but not him. He likes

1084
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:10,800
Speaker 3: the fact that we've approached him to do this book

1085
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:13,880
Speaker 3: because it feels like he might be remembered for something

1086
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:18,040
Speaker 3: more than just that bad stretch of time in his past.

1087
01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:21,200
Speaker 3: He doesn't want to be reduced to that. It's a

1088
01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:23,800
Speaker 3: way for him to have given a message out there

1089
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:28,400
Speaker 3: for kids to be aware, for caretakers to be aware,

1090
01:02:28,960 --> 01:02:32,320
Speaker 3: for people to listen when kids try to say they're

1091
01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:36,160
Speaker 3: in trouble and don't just dismiss them, try to help

1092
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:39,320
Speaker 3: them in some way. And I think that he appreciates

1093
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:43,920
Speaker 3: having something in print out there for people to see

1094
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:48,000
Speaker 3: his situation and to set the story right because prior

1095
01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 3: to this book, it was that older book from nineteen

1096
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:55,800
Speaker 3: seventy four, before even the trial, before even the grand jury,

1097
01:02:55,920 --> 01:02:58,720
Speaker 3: is that older book that sets the tone for this case,

1098
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:02,080
Speaker 3: but it was based on largely on a few interviews

1099
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:05,560
Speaker 3: with families and the police reports, and the police reports

1100
01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:09,640
Speaker 3: we have found are flawed, so that means that story

1101
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:12,760
Speaker 3: is flawed for a number of reasons. Kudos to him

1102
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:16,640
Speaker 3: getting that book out quickly, but unfortunately it's how many

1103
01:03:16,680 --> 01:03:20,040
Speaker 3: people think about the case, and we're hoping to change

1104
01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:22,720
Speaker 3: some minds. And I think way To appreciates that.

1105
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:24,920
Speaker 1: Tray see any other closing thoughts.

1106
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:28,360
Speaker 2: I just think that elmioing Henley is looking to help,

1107
01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:32,640
Speaker 2: and he's given us insight to things, especially this case,

1108
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:35,560
Speaker 2: that we never would have had had we not asked.

1109
01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:40,160
Speaker 2: He's willing to answer every question that we have and

1110
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:45,880
Speaker 2: to help law enforcement understand the nuances of this, and

1111
01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:49,560
Speaker 2: so I really appreciate that he's willing to do that.

1112
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:53,280
Speaker 2: And I think that as a society, it's just so

1113
01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:56,800
Speaker 2: important for us to not look away from these things.

1114
01:03:56,880 --> 01:03:59,320
Speaker 2: That the fact that we didn't know a lot about

1115
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:02,480
Speaker 2: this sex trafa King ring and that we're only learning

1116
01:04:02,480 --> 01:04:06,040
Speaker 2: more about it in the past couple of years, it

1117
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:09,840
Speaker 2: can only lead to history repeating itself, and we don't

1118
01:04:09,880 --> 01:04:12,160
Speaker 2: want that to happen. We want our children to be

1119
01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:16,800
Speaker 2: safe and healthy.

1120
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:27,880
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

1121
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:30,800
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That

1122
01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:34,120
Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and Don't Forget There are

1123
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:38,000
Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast Tenfold More

1124
01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:41,680
Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and

1125
01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:44,480
Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has

1126
01:04:44,520 --> 01:04:49,000
Speaker 1: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis Mrosi.

1127
01:04:49,360 --> 01:04:53,840
Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed

1128
01:04:53,880 --> 01:04:57,760
Speaker 1: by John Bradley. Curtis heath is our composer, artwork by

1129
01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:02,280
Speaker 1: Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgariff, and

1130
01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:06,760
Speaker 1: Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at tenfold More

1131
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:10,120
Speaker 1: Wicked and on Facebook at Wicked Words Pod.