1
00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:10,640
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. The highoid bone in the

2
00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:14,440
Speaker 1: neck being fractured and other fractures in the neck make

3
00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,480
Speaker 1: it more likely. And again this is a percentage call

4
00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,480
Speaker 1: more likely that it was a homicide than a suicide.

5
00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:23,120
Speaker 1: But it can be both. It can be either. Rather,

6
00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:25,400
Speaker 1: it can either be a suicide or a homicide. Still

7
00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,040
Speaker 1: that hasn't been confirmed. I am now more suspicious than

8
00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:30,400
Speaker 1: ever that this could be a homicide number one, because

9
00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:33,519
Speaker 1: of the bones. That answer is going to come to

10
00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:37,040
Speaker 1: a spill. Because if someone is attacked, you see signs

11
00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:39,680
Speaker 1: of the attack on the body. That hasn't been discussed yet.

12
00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:41,959
Speaker 1: It hasn't been released yet. I'm waiting to see that.

13
00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:44,840
Speaker 1: If someone holds you down and strangles you, you see

14
00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:49,880
Speaker 1: evidence on the body bruises. Now, my source, undisclosed source

15
00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,000
Speaker 1: is not going to go into that. Right now, that

16
00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:56,160
Speaker 1: question will be answered. Wow, you're hearing it from an expert.

17
00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,120
Speaker 1: That was doctor Mark Siegel on Fox News. If I

18
00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:04,280
Speaker 1: had a nickel for every time I studied an autopsy

19
00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:11,840
Speaker 1: report regarding strangulation, asphyxiation suicide, I'd be a millionaire right now.

20
00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:16,480
Speaker 1: And that's what it's coming down to. Did multi millionaire

21
00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:23,480
Speaker 1: perv Jeffrey Epstein commit suicide or was he murdered? I

22
00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:25,640
Speaker 1: mean it's he graced this as crime stories. Thank you

23
00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,080
Speaker 1: for being with us at the get go. I was

24
00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:34,120
Speaker 1: so irritated with all the pseudo intellectuals, especially talking heads,

25
00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:38,320
Speaker 1: yacking about how conspiracy theories of our murder were far fetched.

26
00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,280
Speaker 1: That's not true. Our minds should be open to any

27
00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:46,120
Speaker 1: and all possibility with me an all star panel to

28
00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:50,000
Speaker 1: figure it out as best we can. California veteran prosecutor

29
00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:54,400
Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State, author of Blood Beneath

30
00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:59,880
Speaker 1: My Feet on Amazon. Joseph Scott Morgan, renowned medical exam

31
00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:05,320
Speaker 1: or for the State of Florida, doctor Tim Gallagher, Jeff Cortez,

32
00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:09,880
Speaker 1: a former FBI special agent, and joining me right now.

33
00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:16,640
Speaker 1: Radar Online dot Com investigative reporter Alexis Terres Chuck Now, Alexis,

34
00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:18,880
Speaker 1: I'm looking to you for the facts. But let me

35
00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:24,480
Speaker 1: just point out at the get go, Epstein was deeply

36
00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:31,400
Speaker 1: considering cooperating, naming names of the powerful people that he

37
00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:36,239
Speaker 1: handed over that he trafficked underage girls for sex reasons.

38
00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,720
Speaker 1: He had already been found unconscious in his prison cell, earlier,

39
00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,960
Speaker 1: he indicated to some he had been attacked, He was

40
00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:48,760
Speaker 1: taken off suicide watch, he was in isolation. Isn't that

41
00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:55,600
Speaker 1: unusual for suicide risk the camera's malfunction? Are you kidding me?

42
00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,480
Speaker 1: This is where al Chapo was held. This is where

43
00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,320
Speaker 1: off was held. This is where Isis and al Qada

44
00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:09,280
Speaker 1: have been held. I mean even the guys in Mexico

45
00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:14,760
Speaker 1: who let El Chapo ride off in a tunnel in

46
00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:19,680
Speaker 1: a motorcycle had video of him going down his super

47
00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:26,720
Speaker 1: secret holy built by his commode. Really, I mean a murder, Okay, Alexis,

48
00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:30,000
Speaker 1: bring me up to date. Jeffrey Epstein was found dead

49
00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:34,120
Speaker 1: in his cellth the Metropolitan Correctional Center. This, as you said,

50
00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,280
Speaker 1: is where the top criminals in the whole country are held.

51
00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:42,360
Speaker 1: The thing was though, every Alexis I think, Okay, check

52
00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:46,920
Speaker 1: your ifb I just said, Isis al Qaeda, al Chapo

53
00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:51,880
Speaker 1: from around the world are held here. They are monitored

54
00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:58,080
Speaker 1: very carefully. They don't commit suicide. How did he commit suicide?

55
00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,360
Speaker 1: And not this night? That's what you say. They're monitored

56
00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:06,920
Speaker 1: very closely. This night, Jeffrey Epstein was not. So what

57
00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,680
Speaker 1: police sources have said is that the two officers that

58
00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:16,159
Speaker 1: were assigned to monitor him were asleep for three hours.

59
00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:19,320
Speaker 1: They These were guards that were not in the pan alignment.

60
00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:23,320
Speaker 1: Whoa wait, wait, wait, wait right there, I believe that

61
00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,560
Speaker 1: to Jeff Cortez, a FBI special agent. You know, I'm

62
00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,200
Speaker 1: on the side of law enforcement, okay, but falling asleep

63
00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,840
Speaker 1: on your post, I could totally see that totally. They're overworked,

64
00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,800
Speaker 1: they're under pay, they've worked night shifts, blah blah blah.

65
00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:41,680
Speaker 1: But we're all overworked. Everybody on this panel is overworked.

66
00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,839
Speaker 1: Alexa churest Chuck. She has a little boy and a

67
00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:47,440
Speaker 1: husband and a house and of this and of that,

68
00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:49,800
Speaker 1: and a full time job. You don't think she's tired.

69
00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,000
Speaker 1: Hour to even know my name. This morning, I couldn't

70
00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:54,880
Speaker 1: even remember what day it was. I was so tired.

71
00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:59,160
Speaker 1: Of course, they're tired. I could totally see them falling asleep.

72
00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,039
Speaker 1: You know. That's why you have things like musa next

73
00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:05,760
Speaker 1: to jack you up to keep you awake. No, you're

74
00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:09,440
Speaker 1: absolutely right, and it's something that you know. I've been

75
00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:13,480
Speaker 1: through three law enforcement academies, and in both academies, complacency

76
00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,840
Speaker 1: is what they drill into our heads. Is the root

77
00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:22,520
Speaker 1: of you know, our biggest vulnerability, complacency kills. And in

78
00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,159
Speaker 1: this case, you know, it's really hard to tell if

79
00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:27,960
Speaker 1: whether or not they were awake, Jeffrey Epstein would still

80
00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,680
Speaker 1: be alive. But sleeping through it certainly didn't help. But

81
00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,840
Speaker 1: what is the likelihood Wendy Patrick and Jackie pointing this out.

82
00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:37,520
Speaker 1: I can't take credit for it, Remember, Jackie, nobody likes

83
00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:40,320
Speaker 1: and know it all. But that said Wendy, they both

84
00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:44,400
Speaker 1: fall asleep at the same time. Yeah, with Epstein, who's

85
00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,880
Speaker 1: already been either attacked or tried to commit suicide a

86
00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:50,680
Speaker 1: couple of feet away, they both fall asleep at the

87
00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:56,280
Speaker 1: same time and the camera malfunctions. Isn't that too much coincidence? Well,

88
00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:58,800
Speaker 1: that is exactly why we're talking about as much as

89
00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:02,400
Speaker 1: we are as we should. When we house inmates, we

90
00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,599
Speaker 1: take a duty to protect them, sometimes in this case,

91
00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:09,719
Speaker 1: from themselves, and that means we don't let things happen

92
00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:12,400
Speaker 1: like have two guards that are overworked, or remember one

93
00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,480
Speaker 1: of them was actually assigned that shouldn't have been. It

94
00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:20,200
Speaker 1: was a substitute, a substitute watching the highest profile prisoner

95
00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,360
Speaker 1: perhaps in the world at this point in time. Those

96
00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:25,960
Speaker 1: are the kind of facts and circumstances that make this

97
00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:28,680
Speaker 1: such a priority. And remember even the Attorney General bar

98
00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:30,760
Speaker 1: is saying we're going to look into this, and I

99
00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:32,599
Speaker 1: cannot wait. And I'm sure we'll be talking about it

100
00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,080
Speaker 1: on the air with the same fannel. What they're going

101
00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:38,120
Speaker 1: to find as to how this perfect storm was able

102
00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:40,960
Speaker 1: to be put into effect that allowed Epstein to kill

103
00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,839
Speaker 1: himself if in fact that's what happened, Well, Jesse's got

104
00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,360
Speaker 1: Morgan Professor France at Shacksonville State University. I'm going to

105
00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,919
Speaker 1: get into it with forensics in just a moment, because

106
00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,080
Speaker 1: I got a lot of questions about that highwoid bone

107
00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:56,160
Speaker 1: for Gallagher. But Jes Scott, I mean, I've never been

108
00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,480
Speaker 1: a conspiracy theorist. You know why because in my experience

109
00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,479
Speaker 1: executing for how long have I been prosecuting. I got

110
00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,720
Speaker 1: a law school in nineteen eighty four. People can't keep

111
00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:08,760
Speaker 1: their yap shut. That's why I always say there was

112
00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,280
Speaker 1: no conspiracy of a cover up in a J. Simpson

113
00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,960
Speaker 1: Cops had no conspiracy. By now, somebody would have sold

114
00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:19,120
Speaker 1: a million dollar book and told the whole thing. Okay,

115
00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:24,360
Speaker 1: the statute on that's probably passed. People cannot be quiet,

116
00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:30,360
Speaker 1: do I think that Trump or Clinton had him killed. No,

117
00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,760
Speaker 1: I don't. They may have wanted to, but no, I

118
00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,960
Speaker 1: don't think that they did. I don't believe in conspiracies,

119
00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:40,240
Speaker 1: but I'm not convinced this was a suicide. Joe Scott.

120
00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:44,000
Speaker 1: But look at all of these circumstances, all the coincidences.

121
00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,640
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and there's tons of a floating out there.

122
00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,560
Speaker 1: For the past week, I've been doing nothing but entertaining

123
00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:53,440
Speaker 1: phone calls from people that believe that there is a conspiracy.

124
00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:59,200
Speaker 1: And listen, Nancy, I'm when it comes to investigations, I

125
00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,400
Speaker 1: apply Akham Razor, and that philosophy holds that we look

126
00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,920
Speaker 1: for the most simple, obvious thing that we can and

127
00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:08,440
Speaker 1: then we work out from that. Do you realize how

128
00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:13,400
Speaker 1: complex this would be, how complex and undertaking this is

129
00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,000
Speaker 1: that a lot of people are putting forward relative to

130
00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,880
Speaker 1: these conspiracies. I've had people telling me that he's not

131
00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,760
Speaker 1: actually dead, that he's still wandering around out there somewhere,

132
00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:25,720
Speaker 1: or that he arranged all of this so that he's

133
00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:30,080
Speaker 1: of Krispy Kreme Donuts. I'm pretty sure that was him.

134
00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:34,280
Speaker 1: And guess who was with him, Elvis. Hey, guys, it's

135
00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:37,200
Speaker 1: all going to boil down in my mind to the forensics.

136
00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,559
Speaker 1: And when I say I don't think there's a conspiracy,

137
00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:43,280
Speaker 1: I don't mean there's some vast right wing or left

138
00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,880
Speaker 1: wing conspiracy. But I do think there is a chance

139
00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,480
Speaker 1: he was murdered. I think it's all going to boil

140
00:08:50,520 --> 00:09:04,679
Speaker 1: down to one thing. The Highway bone crime stories with

141
00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:10,280
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace for still awaiting the release of Jeffrey Epstein's

142
00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:14,400
Speaker 1: official autopsy report from the medical Examiner. But the Washington Post,

143
00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:18,240
Speaker 1: citing two people familiar with the findings, reports the autopsy

144
00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,560
Speaker 1: shows multiple broken bones in his neck, including the hyoid

145
00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:26,840
Speaker 1: bone near Epstein's Adam's apple. That break can occur in hangings,

146
00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,280
Speaker 1: but is more common in those who die of strangulation.

147
00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:34,319
Speaker 1: Remember the New York Post reports Epstein killed himself by

148
00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,040
Speaker 1: tying a bedsheet around his neck to his jail cell

149
00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:41,200
Speaker 1: bunk bed and then strangling himself by kneeling toward the floor.

150
00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,600
Speaker 1: Hanging many times occurs in a prone position. You just

151
00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:47,679
Speaker 1: simply need to get something around your neck, tie it

152
00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,679
Speaker 1: to the bottom bunk, and just slowly slide off the

153
00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,719
Speaker 1: bunk until you slowly pass out. You can be dead

154
00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,920
Speaker 1: within ten minutes. You are hearing Brian yanis there at

155
00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,920
Speaker 1: Fox Knees with Jack Johnson, prison consultant, but with me

156
00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,320
Speaker 1: right now is the medical examiner for the State of Florida,

157
00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:10,240
Speaker 1: doctor Tim Gallagher. Talk to me, Doctor Gallagher about the

158
00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,640
Speaker 1: highoid bone. Well, the highoid bone is a small bone

159
00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:15,400
Speaker 1: in the front of your neck. It's just above the

160
00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:19,440
Speaker 1: atoms apple and it does not support any weight of

161
00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,679
Speaker 1: the neck. It's just basically a point of contact for

162
00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:25,160
Speaker 1: the muscles of the tongue, so it allows the tongue

163
00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:27,679
Speaker 1: and the muscles around it to operate. Okay, you know,

164
00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,200
Speaker 1: I love you, doctor Gallager, but I don't know anything

165
00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,520
Speaker 1: you just said because I was too busy trying to

166
00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:35,719
Speaker 1: find an atom's apple. Now hold on, wait, wait, wait

167
00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,680
Speaker 1: just a moment. You know, I thought the highoid bone

168
00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:43,199
Speaker 1: was just below the atoms apple, just above it. Actually,

169
00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:48,760
Speaker 1: are you sure? Could you please consult your So I'm

170
00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:55,439
Speaker 1: about two inches off, so just above your atoms apple,

171
00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,800
Speaker 1: there's a bone in your neck, right, So why can't

172
00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,559
Speaker 1: I feel it? Because it's a very thin bone, it's

173
00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:05,120
Speaker 1: a very flexible bone, and it's surrounded by a lot

174
00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:09,200
Speaker 1: of soft tissue, so it's very difficult to actually feel it.

175
00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:11,520
Speaker 1: But it's there on X ray and it's there in

176
00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:15,800
Speaker 1: real life. Why with a highoid bone make a difference

177
00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:19,280
Speaker 1: in this case, because he had several snaps in his neck,

178
00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:24,520
Speaker 1: which I find very disturbing. Well, you know, just two things,

179
00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:27,720
Speaker 1: two points to make, I would guess, is that the

180
00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,560
Speaker 1: actual report from the medical examiner is pending, and it's

181
00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,600
Speaker 1: unusual to release any information from the autopsy during a

182
00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:40,000
Speaker 1: pending report. You know, So are you suggesting that his

183
00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,560
Speaker 1: neck was not snapped in several places? Well, I would

184
00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:45,800
Speaker 1: say it's curious as to how these details got released

185
00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:49,400
Speaker 1: to the public on a pending report. But be that

186
00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:53,520
Speaker 1: as it may. There was also a report of him

187
00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,480
Speaker 1: having a neck injury two weeks prior. So, if in

188
00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:00,120
Speaker 1: fact the bone is broken, when was it broke and

189
00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:04,480
Speaker 1: was it broken two weeks ago during the alleged injury

190
00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,560
Speaker 1: in his cell or is this a fresh break? So

191
00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:13,280
Speaker 1: the medical examines report can help elucidate that. Let's go

192
00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:17,880
Speaker 1: with fresh break. Let's analyze that first, and I'm going

193
00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:20,720
Speaker 1: to go with the reports that we are getting out

194
00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:24,280
Speaker 1: of Washington Post that there were several snaps in the

195
00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:29,240
Speaker 1: neck and that the highoid bone was broken. What does

196
00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:34,360
Speaker 1: that say to you, well, it says a few things.

197
00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,679
Speaker 1: Number one, I would like to know where the bedsheet

198
00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:41,920
Speaker 1: or the alleged bedsheet was around his neck when they

199
00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:43,800
Speaker 1: found him. Was it high up on the neck, was

200
00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:45,800
Speaker 1: it above the level of the highoid bone, Was it

201
00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:48,280
Speaker 1: below the level of the hyoid bone, or was it

202
00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,320
Speaker 1: at the level of the bone. So where was this

203
00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:54,320
Speaker 1: bed sheet? And then this bed sheet would have to

204
00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:56,920
Speaker 1: have left a mark, a very deep mark in the

205
00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,280
Speaker 1: muscles of the neck, So it would be very easy

206
00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:05,960
Speaker 1: to determine where the bedshee came across his neck. So

207
00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:07,720
Speaker 1: it it came across his neck at the level of

208
00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,719
Speaker 1: the hyoid bone, and the high boneless fractured then yet

209
00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:15,800
Speaker 1: that is suspicious for suicide. Not fractured, not fractured, it

210
00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:20,520
Speaker 1: was broken and in lay persons, I mean, I don't

211
00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:22,880
Speaker 1: know if that's fracture and break is the same to you,

212
00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:27,959
Speaker 1: but to me, I think they're different. But I don't understand.

213
00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:34,840
Speaker 1: And the suffocations, asphyxiations, strangling deaths that I prosecuted, and

214
00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:40,160
Speaker 1: there have been many, they did not necessarily involve breaking

215
00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:44,280
Speaker 1: of the bones. Now we know that he had particular hemorrhaging,

216
00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:50,440
Speaker 1: which is very simply that's autopsy talk for the blood

217
00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:54,840
Speaker 1: vessels in your eyes pop because your air supply is

218
00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:59,920
Speaker 1: cut off. But that could be from suicide or murder.

219
00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:03,160
Speaker 1: That means nothing to me. What does mean something to

220
00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:08,480
Speaker 1: me is that his neck had been broken in several places,

221
00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:13,520
Speaker 1: including the highoid bone. That means something to me because

222
00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:18,880
Speaker 1: in the strangulations the homicides are prosecuted. I see very

223
00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:23,120
Speaker 1: big different in homicide versus suicide suicide. I don't believe

224
00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:27,280
Speaker 1: I've ever seen a broken bone in the neck, much

225
00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:32,000
Speaker 1: less several Gallagher. That is true in my practice. Unfortunately,

226
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:36,720
Speaker 1: have done hundreds, maybe pushing up to a thousand autopsies

227
00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,680
Speaker 1: on people who have hanged themselves or who have died

228
00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:45,280
Speaker 1: of asphyxiation, and those who have hung themselves from a ligature.

229
00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,720
Speaker 1: I can't recall a single incident, maybe one or two

230
00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,120
Speaker 1: in the distant past, you know, where I found a

231
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:57,040
Speaker 1: fractured highoid bone. But in cases where somebody was strangled

232
00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:01,360
Speaker 1: manually a documented cases was but he was strangled manually,

233
00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,880
Speaker 1: I have found a fractured highoid bone, a freshly fractured

234
00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,200
Speaker 1: or freshly broken highoid bone. You know, guys, you know

235
00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:10,920
Speaker 1: when I listened to a medical examiner. It's like playing

236
00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:16,120
Speaker 1: an orchestral symphony. I could listen to him all day long.

237
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:18,680
Speaker 1: This is doctor Tim Gallagher, a medical examiner for the

238
00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,640
Speaker 1: State of Florida. On the other hand, just like opera,

239
00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:25,280
Speaker 1: they're speaking in Italian. What are they saying, Joe gott

240
00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:29,600
Speaker 1: break it down, plays and in regular people talk. Remember

241
00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,280
Speaker 1: regular people talk. Go ahead, I think doctor gallagherson a

242
00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:36,840
Speaker 1: fine job, and yes he did, but break it down again.

243
00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:41,800
Speaker 1: I will break it down and understand that the highoid

244
00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,840
Speaker 1: is so highly positioned. And when I say hi, just

245
00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:49,400
Speaker 1: remember it's more proximal, or closer to the jaw than

246
00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,040
Speaker 1: it is to the chest. Okay, so it's and it's

247
00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,800
Speaker 1: deeply seated in the neck, as doctor Gallagher pointed out,

248
00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,640
Speaker 1: it's surrounded by all manner of soft tissue. You know,

249
00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,600
Speaker 1: it's only bone in the body that doesn't actually articulate

250
00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:06,080
Speaker 1: with another bone. It's free floating. It anchors our tongue

251
00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:08,720
Speaker 1: in place. Did I not just tell you regular people talk?

252
00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:12,640
Speaker 1: Why did you say it's not articulating to another bone?

253
00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,520
Speaker 1: Do you say things like that? I don't know how

254
00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:19,400
Speaker 1: your marriage has survived. You need to work on communication. Okay,

255
00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,280
Speaker 1: all right, you've got a beautiful wife. Don't mess it

256
00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,680
Speaker 1: up by talking. Like a bone articulated what it is.

257
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,160
Speaker 1: It is seated in a very in an area that

258
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:35,400
Speaker 1: is just surrounded by soft tissue. That means the bone itself,

259
00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:39,560
Speaker 1: it's bird like in shape. It's not connected to any

260
00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:41,720
Speaker 1: other bone. It's just kind of free floating in there,

261
00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,640
Speaker 1: and it serves a single purpose of anchoring our tongue,

262
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,520
Speaker 1: you know, dove telling what doctor Gallagher had said, it's

263
00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:55,240
Speaker 1: it's so deep in there that it takes a tremendous

264
00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,400
Speaker 1: amount of force to break this. I think that in

265
00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,000
Speaker 1: my experience of working for The Corner in New Orleans

266
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,720
Speaker 1: and for the Emmy in Atlanta, that I worked other

267
00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:08,679
Speaker 1: than a really bizarre car accident where guys next slammed

268
00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:12,320
Speaker 1: into a steering wheel in a nineteen seventy four Pontiac

269
00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,440
Speaker 1: that were not associated with some type of manual strangulation.

270
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,040
Speaker 1: Probably if you go back in time when we still

271
00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:24,200
Speaker 1: did judicial hangings where guys would drop through a trap

272
00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:26,920
Speaker 1: door and a gallows, I could see the howay would

273
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,960
Speaker 1: being fractured like that. But let's keep in mind Nancy

274
00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:35,639
Speaker 1: Epstein was in this jail cell with a bunk and

275
00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:38,280
Speaker 1: that's what he was supported off of the only thing

276
00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,600
Speaker 1: that I can think of, the only thing that I

277
00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:45,160
Speaker 1: can think of relative to that would generate this kind

278
00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,919
Speaker 1: of forces if he in some way stood on the

279
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,120
Speaker 1: bunk and jumped off. But still, that's that's that's kind

280
00:17:51,160 --> 00:18:00,480
Speaker 1: of that, that's kind of running far afield here. I think, Hi, guys,

281
00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:04,840
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace here. I remember every night before I would

282
00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:09,200
Speaker 1: go to work at CNN hill In, I would bathe

283
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,720
Speaker 1: the twins and that was a special time for me. Anyway.

284
00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,160
Speaker 1: I would teach them their ABC's they're one two threes.

285
00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:19,720
Speaker 1: Lucy would only eat dinner in the bathtub. I defeat

286
00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,720
Speaker 1: her dinner in the bathtub. I would give her one

287
00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,159
Speaker 1: full hour in John David one full hour that I

288
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:31,199
Speaker 1: would actually go to work, so king wet. It was

289
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,959
Speaker 1: one of the happiest times of my life. And I

290
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:40,320
Speaker 1: guess that's why I gravitated to Emily Mason. Emily Mason

291
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:46,840
Speaker 1: gorgeous young professor at a local college, Swainsburg, Georgia, East

292
00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:53,119
Speaker 1: George College. I traveled to Swainsborough to investigate her death,

293
00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:56,600
Speaker 1: and this is what I learned. Emily was bathing her

294
00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:00,719
Speaker 1: two little girls in the tub when someone came into

295
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:06,240
Speaker 1: her home chased her from room to room. The last

296
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:10,600
Speaker 1: thing her little girls ever heard from their mother was

297
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:17,600
Speaker 1: Mommy running, screaming for her life. Those are their vivid

298
00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:24,679
Speaker 1: last memories of Mommy. She was brutally murdered. And you

299
00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:27,640
Speaker 1: may ask where was her husband during all this? While

300
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:33,600
Speaker 1: her husband, also a professor at East Georgia College PE

301
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,920
Speaker 1: professor a PE coach, happened to be gone. He just

302
00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,480
Speaker 1: happened to leave for a local Walmart or home depot

303
00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,600
Speaker 1: or lows and in that short window of time he

304
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:49,240
Speaker 1: comes home to find his wife dead in the home.

305
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:54,760
Speaker 1: The children woman's non verbal could hardly describe a thing

306
00:19:56,200 --> 00:20:03,600
Speaker 1: what happened to Emily Mason. Her story really has touched me,

307
00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:08,280
Speaker 1: the mystery surrounding the death, the brutal death of this

308
00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:14,840
Speaker 1: young mom, Emily Mason. This Saturday, we will be facebooking, instagramming,

309
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:21,840
Speaker 1: and tweeting live throughout the episode This Saturday. Oxygen, August seventeen,

310
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:28,440
Speaker 1: six p m Eastern, five Central. Please join us, Thanks friend.

311
00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:38,439
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Multimillionaire was supposed to have

312
00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:42,000
Speaker 1: been checked by guards every thirty minutes, but that procedure

313
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:44,919
Speaker 1: was not being followed the night before he was found,

314
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,760
Speaker 1: according to The New York Times, which also reported the

315
00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:51,639
Speaker 1: facility had transferred his cell maid and allowed Epstein to

316
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,080
Speaker 1: be housed alone. The report says Epstein had been put

317
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,679
Speaker 1: on suicide watch after staff found him semi conscious in

318
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,720
Speaker 1: his cell just over two weeks ago in an apparent

319
00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:05,840
Speaker 1: suicide attempt, but recently he was taken off it. Sources

320
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,560
Speaker 1: at the jail tell CBS News they often rely on

321
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:12,680
Speaker 1: certain inmates to assist guards in monitoring other inmates due

322
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,360
Speaker 1: to a lack of manpower. According to those sources, Epstein

323
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,960
Speaker 1: had told authorities he feared powerful people might be trying

324
00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,399
Speaker 1: to prevent him from cooperating with authorities. You were hearing

325
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:28,000
Speaker 1: our friend at wl NYTV. That's Rena Roy. Now take

326
00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,600
Speaker 1: a listen to my longtime friend from Court TV at

327
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,639
Speaker 1: CBS NEWSS. Also that have come out that I find,

328
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:39,080
Speaker 1: frankly very disturbing was the condition of how he was

329
00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:43,760
Speaker 1: monitored at the MCC, which is the Metropolitan Correctional Center

330
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,080
Speaker 1: on the Shoe, as we call it, the special housing

331
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:52,440
Speaker 1: unit where the most high profile, the most notorious criminals

332
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:58,719
Speaker 1: or people facing a possible prosecution. Our house al CHAPO

333
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:02,960
Speaker 1: was on that floor. Paul Manafort is still on that floor.

334
00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,560
Speaker 1: And in fact, if I were Paul Manafort right now,

335
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,800
Speaker 1: I would not be very comfortable because you have guards,

336
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,439
Speaker 1: one of them, one of whom was really not a

337
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:17,320
Speaker 1: correctional officer at that point. Their excuses they were very understaffed,

338
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,720
Speaker 1: they were working multiple overtimes, and so what that tests

339
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,479
Speaker 1: me is they were asleep. Well, I agree with Ricky Gleeman,

340
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:28,200
Speaker 1: and that practically never happens. I want you to also

341
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 1: listen to what Jessica Layton at CBS two News has

342
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 1: to say. The Attorney General promised a thorough investigation, and

343
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:38,840
Speaker 1: this is really just the tip of the fallout from

344
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,240
Speaker 1: this apparent jail cell suicide. The Department of Justice confirming

345
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,840
Speaker 1: late this afternoon the two guards who were supposed to

346
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,920
Speaker 1: be keeping a close watch on Jeffrey Epstein have been

347
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 1: placed on leave and the warden of the Metropolitan Correctional

348
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 1: Center has been reassigned, at least temporarily. All this after

349
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 1: what Attorney General William Barr described as serious irregularities at

350
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 1: the Federal Detention Center where Epstein died in Lower Manhattan's Saturday.

351
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 1: Those guards were supposed to be checking on the multi

352
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 1: millionaire in mate every thirty minutes and reportedly hadn't done

353
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 1: so for hours now. Remember, Epstein had already tried to

354
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 1: take his own life weeks earlier, but had since been

355
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 1: taken off twenty four seven suicide Watch again. Tonight, two

356
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,360
Speaker 1: guards had been placed on leave, the warden at mcc reassigned.

357
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,880
Speaker 1: Likely more followed to follow. Right now, I am waiting

358
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 1: with bated breath for the full autopsy to be released because,

359
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,600
Speaker 1: like many medical examiners, I'm want to see what else

360
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 1: it reveals. Was there bruising anywhere else on the body

361
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 1: to show Epstein had been attacked. Now the autopsy is

362
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 1: being performed by doctor Barbara Sampson, the chief medical examiner

363
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 1: in New York, but under the watchful eye of doctor

364
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,840
Speaker 1: Michael Boden. I know Boden very well, used to work

365
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,239
Speaker 1: with his wife, Linda Kenney. She was an analyst and

366
00:23:55,800 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 1: legal analyst, well known defense lawyer. Boden. I don't always

367
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:05,119
Speaker 1: agree with him, but he's brilliant. Alexis Ruschak, can we

368
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,199
Speaker 1: talk about two plus two equals four? Because before I

369
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,159
Speaker 1: go back to Gallagher or and Joe Scott Morgan for

370
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:19,920
Speaker 1: autopsy issues alexis the camera malfunctioned Are you kidding me?

371
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 1: And one of the most highly a supermax. They have

372
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,719
Speaker 1: a malfunctioning camera. I mean, this is she we're talking

373
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 1: about where there is a special housing unit. And I

374
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 1: know he had been off suicide Watch, which was a

375
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:40,240
Speaker 1: huge mistake. But under suicide Watch, your sheets are made

376
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:44,920
Speaker 1: of paper, so this type of incident doesn't take place.

377
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 1: But I want to get back to malfunctioning cameras and

378
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 1: sales where El Chapo was cap Are you kidding me? Well,

379
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 1: that's what makes this all so suspicious, that the cameras

380
00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 1: were not functioning, and also the fact that this guy radar.

381
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:02,879
Speaker 1: We were the first to report that he attempted suicide

382
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 1: a few weeks ago, and then just less than two

383
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 1: weeks later, he convinces the prison that he doesn't need

384
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,959
Speaker 1: it anymore. He spends the entire day with his attorneys,

385
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 1: and he's paying them to come in, so he isn't

386
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,639
Speaker 1: spending any time in his jail. So and he is

387
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 1: known all of a sudden, they're saying, Oh, he's happy,

388
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,440
Speaker 1: he's go lucky, he's smiling, nothing's wrong with him. This

389
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 1: guy evaded punishment for decades. And then all of a

390
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 1: sudden is able to con people into thinking that he

391
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 1: was absolutely fine again. But yes, you're right, the cameras malfunctioning.

392
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 1: That's what people are saying. This is a completely non

393
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,360
Speaker 1: working prison, and they're saying maybe it's underfunded. I don't

394
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 1: know the reasons, but a guard that isn't normally, they

395
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 1: are cameras that aren't working, and then a policy that

396
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 1: completely fail. You're right, why did he have a bed sheet?

397
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,400
Speaker 1: And they're saying that he was found kneeling down, so

398
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 1: that he kneeled and how can that force possibly cause

399
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 1: it down? Well, Commune Robin Williams, as I recall, Wendy

400
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 1: Patrick tie the necktie to a door knob and sat

401
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,880
Speaker 1: or kneeled and then just went forward as I recall,

402
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:19,479
Speaker 1: and I imagine that's what they are claiming happened to Epstein. Wendy.

403
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,360
Speaker 1: Is that what appward? Robin Williams, Well, you know, as

404
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,199
Speaker 1: are two medical experts on the panel have been explaining

405
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 1: there are several ways it could have happened. One thing

406
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 1: I would have thought is maybe there wasn't a camera

407
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 1: pointed at him, maybe he wasn't checked on, But had

408
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,400
Speaker 1: he jumped off his bunk and done it that way,

409
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 1: The noise might have been something that at the very

410
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 1: least might have brought guards at least running, or at

411
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,360
Speaker 1: least gotten somebody's attention in order to save his life,

412
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,199
Speaker 1: or at least at least gotten there before it was

413
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 1: too late. What we're operating on now, and this is

414
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 1: so frustrating in the day and age in which we live,

415
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: is sources familiar with the autopsy results. Can you imagine

416
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 1: if the autopsy finally comes out and it is so

417
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 1: much more, so much easier to understand stand because these

418
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: sources perhaps aren't completely briefed on it. Because the next

419
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 1: tie question Nancy and some of the other things that

420
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 1: we've seen over the years doesn't really fit with the

421
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 1: fact pattern that we have here with mister Epstein. So

422
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 1: there has to be more to the story and I

423
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: cannot wait to find a little bit more details to

424
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 1: figure out cameras aside, maybe they didn't check on them,

425
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 1: but how did he accomplish it in a facility that

426
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: is supposed to be suicide proof, and all our facilities

427
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 1: are supposed to be suicide proof. You're not supposed to

428
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: be able to easily kill yourself well, you're right about that, Wendy,

429
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 1: because we have determined that there has only been one

430
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 1: successful suicide in that past forty years that Manhattan Correctional Center,

431
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 1: much less at Shoe Special Housing Unit. And I want

432
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 1: to go to Jeff Cortes about this. The coincidences, Okay,

433
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 1: multiple break Stepstin's neck, Okay, that that typically does not

434
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 1: happen in a suicide. This guy was leaning Epstein, the

435
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 1: multi million their child predator, apparently their theory is, was

436
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 1: leaning on his knees and just leaned forward. That is

437
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: not enough to cause multiple snaps to your neck. Period.

438
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: The cameras not working, malfunctioning, the guards happening to be

439
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 1: asleep for three hours. Both of them happened to get

440
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,400
Speaker 1: the drowsies at the same time. Then we learned Epstein

441
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 1: was in quote great spirits just before his death and

442
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 1: actually believed he was going to be billed out to

443
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: cooperate with the Feds. He had met for twelve hours

444
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: starting at eight am with his lawyers. He had not

445
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: been in a cell and was convinced they would win

446
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 1: an appeal to get him out on bell. He was

447
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 1: planning to cooperate and bring down powerful men in our

448
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 1: country and beyond. There's just no other cell mates saw

449
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 1: what was happening. It's just Cortesi. You're the former FPI

450
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 1: special agent. This just doesn't feel right to me. It

451
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 1: just doesn't add up. Yeah, Nancy, I think, just as

452
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: a rule of thumb, if it if it doesn't feel right,

453
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 1: it's probably because something's not right. And this particular incident

454
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 1: is riddled with red flags and you pointed them out

455
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 1: with the camera's not working, the sleeping guards, so forth

456
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 1: and so on. I mean, Jeffrey Epstein was a prime

457
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: candidate for taking his life, an extremely wealthy peedo facing prison,

458
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 1: and we all know that life as a sex crimes

459
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 1: convict is not pleasant in prison, so the future was

460
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 1: not right for him. Why he was not in a

461
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: single cell as a huge, huge question mark the the Ultimately,

462
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 1: I think the FBI will be looking at this as

463
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: a possible corruption case, you know, is it a breakdown

464
00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: protocol or something else, whether suicide or piracy murder. The

465
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 1: guards here are going to be critical to that investigation.

466
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:18,719
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, I mean, see Grace, this

467
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: is crime Stories. Thank you for being with us, guys.

468
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 1: Before we get back to Epstein, Mayhee rotten Hill. I

469
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 1: want to thank our friends Jeff Hurley and Craig Stevens

470
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 1: at w r a W news Radio It's thirteen to

471
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: forty for adding crime stories to their lineup. If you

472
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 1: are in Ready, Pennsylvania, please tune in to w r

473
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 1: a W Jeff and Craig. It's great to be with you.

474
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 1: And now to Epstein. YEFFEI raid on the mansion, uncovered

475
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 1: sex toys, a life sized female doll hanging from a chandelier,

476
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 1: and hundreds of lewd photos. Bill Cosby, who is now

477
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: serving three to ten years in prison for sexual assault,

478
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: used to live in a townhouse directly opposite the mansion.

479
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: These are pages from Epstein's Little Black Book. They were

480
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: first obtained by the website Gawker. They showed numerous entries

481
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 1: for the rich and famous Donald Trump, actor Alec Baldwin,

482
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: and singer Courtney Love. Page after page are headlined massage Paris,

483
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: Massage UK, Massage Florida. Below the cities a list of

484
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 1: first names with contact numbers. There are twenty one email

485
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: addresses and contact numbers in the book for former President

486
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: Bill Clinton, and he's speaking out today. President Clinton knows

487
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 1: nothing about the terrible crimes Jeffrey Epstein is charged with

488
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 1: in New York. A statement says. In the statement, Clinton

489
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 1: acknowledges he flew four times on Epstein's private jet in

490
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: two thousand and two and two thousand and three. You're

491
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 1: hearing our friends and inside edition what the FBI found

492
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 1: in Epstein's Manhattan apartment. It's that little black book full

493
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 1: of names of rich and powerful people he could clearly

494
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 1: bring down. Alexis terreschak or Online dot Com investigative reporter.

495
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 1: I think we all know what massage means. I think

496
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 1: we do. I don't think that these massagies were what

497
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 1: they were, and in fact, these are under each girls

498
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 1: are victims. These are teenage girls. They're not eighteen nineteen

499
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: year old teenagers either. These are thirteen, fourteen, and fifteen

500
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: year old girls who have come forward and said that

501
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 1: they were victims of Epstein's This is a terrible, terrible

502
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 1: assault that took place by this man who was finally

503
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 1: called and was maybe finally going to have justice against

504
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 1: him for these victims, and then this untimely death. And

505
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 1: his victims are furious about this. They say that they

506
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 1: find this so suspicious that when they were finally making

507
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: headway that he has now died, but they still want

508
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 1: to go forward with their cases because they feel like

509
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 1: he must be held responsible, his estate must be held responsible. Yes,

510
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 1: quite the coincidence that before he can name names and

511
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: cooperate with the fans, he ends up dead. To doctor

512
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 1: Tim Gallagher or the medical examiner for the State of Florida,

513
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 1: Doctor Gallagher, there was a case of a teen boy,

514
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 1: Ronnie White, accused of killing a cop. He died in

515
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: a Maryland prison cell apparent suicide. Cause of death changed

516
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 1: a homicide two days later when the autopsy revealed his

517
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 1: higoid bone was broken. That's why I keep talking about

518
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 1: it and all of the cases I've ever investigated or

519
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 1: proceeded or covered. You don't see three snaps in the

520
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: neck and a broken highoid bone on a suicide. I

521
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 1: don't know how to make that anymore clear or simple.

522
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: That is unheard of, especially doctor Gallagher. If he committed

523
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: suicide by use of a sheet, which is not a

524
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 1: harsh ligature such as a rope, using a sheet tied

525
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 1: to a bed and then he leans forward, that would

526
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 1: not snap multiple bones in your neck. Gallagher, Certainly it

527
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 1: would not, you know, And just one point to make

528
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: is that it really takes about twelve pounds of pressure

529
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 1: across the neck to commit suicide. So twelve pounds of

530
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:22,240
Speaker 1: pressure will nowhere nearly break any bone in your body,

531
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 1: let alone your highoid bone and several other bones in

532
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 1: your neck. So him breaking the bones in his neck

533
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 1: via the by the way that they claim it's very,

534
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 1: very skeptical, I doubt highly. As a matter of fact,

535
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: I would categorically say no, it is impossible for the

536
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: higher bone to break during a strangulation as described by

537
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 1: the report, even leaning forward with the shoot around his neck.

538
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 1: But then added, according to the Washington Post, additional bones broken,

539
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 1: doctor Gallagher, additional bones in the neck broken. I just

540
00:34:57,680 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 1: I don't see it. That would Yeah, that would be

541
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 1: a very hard sell. And the jump the theory of

542
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,359
Speaker 1: jumping off the bed, I'm looking at a mock up

543
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,839
Speaker 1: of his cell right now. It's not a bunk bed.

544
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 1: He's not up on top of something to jump down from.

545
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: And even if he was, if he jumped down, he

546
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: could stand up. The bunk bed is not that tall,

547
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 1: so I don't see him jumping down. And my point

548
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: with that, doctor Gallagher, is if you could jump off

549
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,320
Speaker 1: something with a sheet around your neck, you might get

550
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 1: that velocity, that force that could snap a bone, but

551
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 1: he doesn't have that ability. It's just all the coincidences together.

552
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,800
Speaker 1: And you know what's really irritating Wendy Patrick top it

553
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 1: all off, is pseudo intellectuals looking down their nose at

554
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 1: people just asking simple questions like this, claiming it's a wild,

555
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 1: vast conspiracy theory. It's not. It's just that the theory

556
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 1: that someone killed him is very Yeah, it's plausible. The

557
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 1: circumstances of what makes it unlikely, and that's why it worked.

558
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 1: That's why it's a fascinating subject. In this day and

559
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 1: age where we everything we do is on camera. The

560
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 1: gap in any monitoring happens to surround the most high

561
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 1: profile federal prisoner that we had at the time. So

562
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 1: it's implausible when you talk about looking at the medical

563
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 1: examiner's report and listening to the experts on our panel,

564
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:24,879
Speaker 1: and I've learned a lodge this from this last hour.

565
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 1: Listening to all of it takes twelve pounds of pressure.

566
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 1: Can you imagine what this would look like in front

567
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,359
Speaker 1: of a jury, Nancy. There would be demonstrations, there would

568
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 1: be models, there would be all these ways that were

569
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,320
Speaker 1: put forth and then it's a circumstantial circumstantial evidence, or

570
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 1: in this case, the lack thereof that lends this corroberation

571
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:43,320
Speaker 1: that we would need to show that it was murder,

572
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,240
Speaker 1: even though medically, of what I'm hearing is that seems

573
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 1: to be the more likely explanation for these breaks. Well.

574
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:53,720
Speaker 1: Another issue is that he was taken off suicide Watch

575
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 1: buy present officials, and that would include a shrink that

576
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: would speak to him, analyze him, determined if he was

577
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 1: ready to come off suicide Watch, and his own lawyers

578
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 1: weighed in that he was ready. Take a listen to

579
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 1: doctor Mark Siegel. The other suicide watch situation, which is

580
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: shocking to me as a physician who has dealt with

581
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: severely depressed and suicidal patients. Six days on a suicide watch,

582
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 1: prison officials reportedly removed at prison officials guided by who

583
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 1: what self respecting psychiatrist would say, Okay, he's no longer suicidal.

584
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 1: There was evidence on July twenty third that he may

585
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,399
Speaker 1: have done something to his neck or someone did right.

586
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,919
Speaker 1: Then suddenly six days later, he waves his hand, says

587
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,280
Speaker 1: he's fine, and he's put in an area where ultimately

588
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 1: he's unobserved and listen to Fox News Brian Yanis NEWDJ

589
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 1: statistics reportedly show ten out of the eighteen guards working

590
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 1: at the Metropolitan Correctional Center, we're working overtime. This is

591
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 1: important because there's an investigation now into whether the two

592
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: guards assigned to watch Epstein's unit fell asleep. The union

593
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 1: representing the guards has said Epstein's death is a result

594
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 1: of understaffing. Meanwhile, the attention now turns toward Epstein's inner circle,

595
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 1: particularly his former girlfriend, British socialite Gislin Maxwell. Maxwell has

596
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 1: been identified by multiple Epstein accusers as being his primary

597
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:21,280
Speaker 1: co conspirator, recruiting and cohersing underage girls to have sex

598
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:25,280
Speaker 1: with Epstein. Maxwell's whereabouts are unknown, but yesterday The Daily

599
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,720
Speaker 1: Mail reported she was living with millionaire tech CEO Seth

600
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 1: Borgerson and a man should outside of Boston. We spoke

601
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 1: to Borgerson over the phone while he was on a

602
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 1: plane taking off for Europe. He denied the report Sandras,

603
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,919
Speaker 1: saying he can't remember the last time he saw her. Wow,

604
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 1: everybody seems to forget so much. In this case. The

605
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 1: guards forgot to check Epstein, they forgot to stay away

606
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,240
Speaker 1: they forgot they paper sheets. Yeah, we'll see what happens

607
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 1: for that autopsy comes out. As for where is Elaine Maxwell,

608
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 1: She was just spotted in an in and out Burger

609
00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 1: stand scarfing down at burger. She's not worried, as just

610
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 1: as sun falls. Nancy Grace climbs the story, signing off

611
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 1: goodbye friend,