WEBVTT - Cats: Invasive Species? 0:00:01.440 --> 0:00:04.240 Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of I 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:13.520 Heart Radio. Hey, and Welcome to the Hornet's Nest. I'm Josh, 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:17.320 there's Chuck Cherry's here, and this is stuff you should know. 0:00:19.000 --> 0:00:25.079 Josh's idea. Yeah, as I was researching this, I started 0:00:25.600 --> 0:00:30.200 sweating like cartoon bullets off of my forehead, like I was, um, 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:35.760 little orphan any or something. When she's startled or Nancy, 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:38.839 Nancy is a better one. Do you remember Nancy m 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:44.200 hmm with Lugo? Yeah? Yeah, I remember Nancy and Slugo. Yeah. 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:47.160 So she is one of the great overlooked comic strips 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:49.800 of all time, and she's still going on. She's got 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:52.120 a new breath of life in her. She's using computers 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:55.360 in the Internet and everything by saying great like almost 0:00:55.440 --> 0:01:00.840 kind of subversive humor and outlook that that any um 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:05.319 that that Nancy always had, check it out. I haven't 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:07.600 looked at the funny papers in a long time. Do 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:11.000 they still have the old favorite? Yeah? But I don't 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:14.120 think they call them funny papers anymore because they're not funny, 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:17.680 and then they never worked. Plus, no one wants to 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:20.560 point out that it's made of paper that the comics. Yeah, 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:24.080 I used to love Beatle Bail. Of course, Garfield in 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:27.360 bloom County. And when I got a little bit older, 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:30.960 the one that has got a little political. That was 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:36.479 so good, Sally Forth, No, I got political, dude, Yeah, 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:41.440 not bloom County. But the other one that was Jon'sburry, Yeah, Doon'sburry. 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:44.960 Oh yeah, that one was always political. Uh. And then 0:01:45.160 --> 0:01:49.520 Beatle Bailey. I love Beatle Bailey. What about Haggard the Horrible? 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:53.160 He was fine, a family circus I liked at the time, 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:56.760 but looking back, it was the least funny comic in history. 0:01:57.560 --> 0:02:03.200 It was. It was just it was cute. Brenda Starr Trail, 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:07.240 Mary worth Mark trail. What was going on with that guy? 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:10.360 It was just a nature propaganda disguised to say a 0:02:10.440 --> 0:02:13.800 comic strip really was, you know, nature propaganda, save the 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:17.280 Earth and all that big nature. So that's funny that 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:21.480 you say that, because there's there's a group of people 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:26.480 who are involved in today's topic that possibly refer to 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:31.200 their opponents as big nature. Weirdly chuck like, I don't 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:36.800 think they do, but the same sense and sensibility is 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:42.080 still there. Jane Austin reference second one in the in 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:45.440 two podcasts that's right. Uh so, yeah, can we just 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:48.720 cavy out this episode? You said it was a hornet's nest. 0:02:49.280 --> 0:02:53.359 This is about cats, domestic cats being an invasive species. 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:57.280 I'm sorry, but they are. I love cats. I've got 0:02:57.280 --> 0:03:01.080 two cats, I've always had cats, always love cats, I 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:03.640 will always have cats. This has nothing to do with 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:07.399 being anti or pro cat. It is just dissecting sort 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:13.200 of the scientific problem of cats in the same way 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:17.160 that cats dissect birds and small mammals for sport, right, 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:19.040 which we talked about a lot, but we'll talk about 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:21.640 it a lot more. Yeah. So I'm with you, Chuck, 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:24.480 and like we're you know, it is an issue, and 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:27.600 it's a problem. And one of the things that's contributing 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:29.480 to making it a problem is that the two sides 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:34.520 are so diametrically opposed and so over one another that 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:38.280 there's a there's just no conversation going on, and then 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:41.520 the general public, like you and me, Um are just 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:43.800 kind of blissfully unaware of this and then just get 0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:45.760 goose every once in a while when the media kind 0:03:45.760 --> 0:03:48.080 of picks up this issue or runs a headline or 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:51.360 an article about it, Um, and the idea is, like 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:56.000 you said that that it's pretty pretty much widely held 0:03:56.040 --> 0:04:01.040 among wildlife and conservation biologists that cats, house cats, and 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:06.800 specifically feral cats are an invasive species around the world 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:13.240 and have they reak enormous havoc, including species extinction in 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:16.440 the habitats in our backyards and the habitats that they 0:04:17.000 --> 0:04:20.360 inhabit um. But before we really kind of get into 0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:23.000 that and lay out the case one way or another, um, 0:04:23.080 --> 0:04:25.080 we should probably talk about the cat and where the 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:27.520 cat came from and why they hang out on our 0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:31.960 backyards to begin with. That's right, we should. They came 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:37.520 we think from the mid mid East with not Mid 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:41.440 East as in Virginia. That's not the mid East. That's 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:44.520 the Middle East. That's the mid Atlantic. Yeah, the Middle 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:48.760 East of planet Earth, which was you know, these wildcats 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:52.800 from the forest called Felis sylvestris, which is interesting. I 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:56.520 never thought about Sylvester the cat taking Felix the cat, yeah, 0:04:56.640 --> 0:05:00.599 or Felix taking their names from the original cats. But 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:02.600 that is the thought is that they came from there. 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:07.200 We're most likely domesticated about twelve thousand years ago, and 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:09.760 we don't know for sure, but the general thought is 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:14.640 once we started becoming an agriculturally based society, and we 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:17.440 had grain and seed to store. Then the mice and 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:20.800 the rats started coming around, and the wildcats started coming 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:25.279 around to take care of that problem, and humans were like, hey, 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:28.320 this is fine with us. And then over time some 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:31.120 of those cats got a little friendlier than others and 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:33.840 there and the people were like, oh, you like a 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:36.560 little scritch under the neck. Huh, well, you want to 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:39.320 come inside and have some milk. Shouldn't give cats milk, 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:42.360 But they didn't know that at a time. And that's 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:44.599 the best idea we have going of how cats and 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:49.280 initially became domesticated. Yeah, and there's evidence of, you know, 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:55.200 of cats being domesticated um that come from Cyprus, where 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:58.440 there are no native cats. So cat bones and cat 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:02.080 fossils are sensibly domesticated because they would have had to 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:05.719 have been taken there by humans by ship. It's possible 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:08.360 the cats stowed away, but it's also just as possible 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:10.919 that eight thousand years ago, when this cat bone on 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:16.080 Cypress is from Um, the the cat was domesticated enough 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:20.680 to ride along aboard a ship um with sailors. And 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:26.200 then there's another cat fossil from about years earlier than 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:29.600 that so just under ten thousand years ago, um, where 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:32.840 the cat was deliberately buried with the human, which strongly 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:36.200 also suggests domestication. So it's not a really big stretch 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:38.360 that by about twelve thou years ago and we started 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:42.360 storing surplus grain, that's about the time when cats and 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:46.719 humans really started to kind of coincide. Yeah, And I 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:49.800 think you had probably best described this as a mutualistic 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:54.760 relationship at this point, because both species are benefiting. We 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:59.760 have talked in the past about commence al um boom, 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:02.159 and maybe that's how one might have described it, which 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:05.159 is like cats are eating the mice. Humans were like, fine, 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:07.839 big wook, but we don't really care. But I would 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:12.240 say it's probably more mutualistic, don't you don't you think? Yes? Absolutely, Again, 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:15.640 I posit that there's no such thing as commence all 0:07:15.760 --> 0:07:20.400 is um. I think both parties, somehow, some way always 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:25.200 are either benefited or harmed by this situation. And this 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:27.800 is a great example of that because if we're growing 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:31.000 surplus or for growing grain, we have surplus to feed 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:33.920 more and more people, um, and the last us through 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:37.200 the wind or whatever, we have these grain stores. If 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:40.239 you know, mice and rats come along and eat our grain. 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:42.960 That's a problem for us. And if the cats come 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:46.320 along and eat the mice or the rats, that solves 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:50.160 our problem. So the cat is getting to eat all 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:52.800 of this food that's showing up that these grain stores 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:55.160 where otherwise they would have to go and hunt all 0:07:55.200 --> 0:08:00.960 over the place. The cats benefiting, we're benefiting mutualism. That's right. 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:04.800 I agree. Okay, Uh, you don't have to talk me 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:09.200 into it, buddy, Okay, lay off, then lay off. We 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:12.760 need T shirts. Man, do we still have T shirts? Oh? 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:15.560 I don't know either. I haven't seen him in a while. 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:19.360 We've never done a good job at promoting that stuff. No, 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:22.800 that's right. Uh. So here's the deal with cats as 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:28.360 an invasive species, though, is they are very uh hardy 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:31.320 as a species. They survive even though they don't have 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:33.880 a real natural range. They can live in many, many 0:08:33.880 --> 0:08:38.000 different environments successfully. Uh. And there are obviously your your 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:40.959 pet cats, which are I don't think we said what 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:45.720 was the name of the domesticated cat. Finally, Felis catus, 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:49.000 which sounds like a bugs bunny cartoon, you know, like 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:52.200 when road runner would yeah, would they freeze frame? You know, 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:56.320 it's basically what they would write. But that's it was 0:08:56.360 --> 0:08:59.520 totally unimaginative as it gets. So you've got your your 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:03.479 feral cats, and you've got your cats that live inside 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:09.280 houses but also freely rome outside like uh, like, oh, 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:11.079 I have a pet cat, but it never comes inside 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:13.480 because I don't like changing litter boxes. So we have 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:16.000 outdoor cats. And then there's the feral cat. And those 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:19.760 are the two cats that are causing problems. Uh. And 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:21.760 they are very much different and this is from the grabster. 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:25.480 He points out they're very different than other quote unquote 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:28.920 domestic invasive species that you might have as a pet, 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:32.440 because we talked about the Burmese python problem in Florida. 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:37.160 Those aren't truly domesticated. Uh. And then there are feral 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:40.440 dog populations in the world, and they do cause problems, 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:45.520 but not like cats do. No, definitely not so Um. 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:49.360 Apparently there's also like a really good case that's made 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:53.480 that cats aren't truly domesticated either, which rings a bell 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:56.200 to me from our animal Domestication episode. Yeah, I think 0:09:56.200 --> 0:09:59.480 I remember that. I think they're considered semi domestic actually 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:02.920 person intense and perfect basically or no, they just come 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:05.760 and go as they please. There they hang around us 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:08.120 as much as they want to, you know. All right, Well, 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:10.640 speaking of hanging out, let's take a little break and 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:13.120 we'll get to the grizzly details of what these cats do, 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:15.120 because even though you've said it before, you might not 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:17.080 have heard that episode. You might think, what would my 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:21.960 sweet little cat do if let outside besides just creep around. Well, 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:47.719 we'll tell you what they'll do right after this, all right, Chuck. So, 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:51.560 I think anybody who owns a cat that's not indoor 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:55.920 cat UM has had some experience or other where their 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:59.000 cat has shown up on their doorstep with a present 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:02.320 of a bird, mouse, a small road, and baby squirrel 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:07.440 um the baby seal, depending on where you are, but 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:11.880 some some little animal where the cat is saying either hey, UM, 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:14.120 I want you to have this, I really appreciate all 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:18.160 of the fancy feast. Or they theorize that possibly the 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:21.600 cat is UM keeping a toy that it was playing 0:11:21.640 --> 0:11:24.480 with earlier. It's brought home to like hang onto, or 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:29.199 it's it's um following and it's UM, I guess kind 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:32.920 of evolutionary impulse to teach other cats how to hunt. 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:35.760 It's teaching you how to hunt. That's what it's bringing. 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:38.960 Those are the big main theories that I saw, Like, 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:41.880 see how it's done, buddy, Yeah, you see this bird? 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:46.480 Can you do that? And you may be horrified when 0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:49.440 the cat does that. You may also be like, you know, Felix, 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:55.880 come on, you can't do that. Where's this bird's head anyway? Um, 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:57.600 and then just kind of forget about it, put it 0:11:57.600 --> 0:11:59.520 out of your mind. Maybe you go to the trouble 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:01.679 of bearing the bird, which is nice if you do that, 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:05.760 but you just move along with your day. Your cat 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:08.240 might do that a few times a year. And if 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:10.760 you multiply that by the number of cats who are 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:13.200 roaming around, and you number multiply that by the number 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:17.439 of feral cats, you suddenly get into really really really 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:21.760 big numbers, and the idea of just how destructive invasive 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:26.439 cats are, um really kind of comes into focus. Yeah. 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:31.640 So here are numbers from uh about nine years ago. 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:35.040 And this is kind of hard to track, but they 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:38.400 do the best job that they can with these numbers. Uh. 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:44.640 Domestic cats, these are to say, pet cats and feral cats. Uh. 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:47.040 And we should say that feral cats kill about three 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:51.320 times is more animals and birds as domestic cats, but 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:57.480 between one point four in three point seven billion with 0:12:57.600 --> 0:13:01.520 a B birds and sit point nine and this is 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:06.600 a big range to twenty point seven billion mammals a year. 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:09.839 This is every single year. And you found some more 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:14.240 stats that really kind of put a cherry on top here. Uh. 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:19.319 Rodents are linked to the extinction of seventy five different species. 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:23.920 Cats are linked to the extinction of sixty three different 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:29.520 species where they have completely been extinct, forty bird species, 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:36.040 twenty one mammal species, and two reptile species. Right, So, UM, 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:42.200 we should say that the UM the species extinction that's global. 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:46.120 They think the that those numbers that you said between 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:49.439 up to around four billion birds and as many as 0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:55.360 UM twenties plus billion mammals every year. Chuck, that's in 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:58.800 the United States alone, and not only in the United 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:02.840 States one that's to the contiguous forty eight states alone 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:06.760 every year. That's what this two thousand and thirteen study 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:12.199 between Smithsonian Institute and UM the US Fish and Wildlife 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:16.960 Service concluded. Right, So there are people and you know, 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:19.560 we'll get to you know, some of the possible solutions 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:22.000 later on. But if you talk to the head of 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:25.840 the Smithsonian Migratory Bird Center UM and named Pete Mara. 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:29.360 He will say very clearly that there should be a 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:35.040 zero tolerance for free ranging cats. Uh, they should be trapped, 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:38.560 they should be removed and not returned um and then 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:41.280 goes on to say more things that are a little 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:44.560 more grizzly should be done if you have no other choices, 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:50.680 which is euthanasia, um, professional hunters, poisons, stuff like that. 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:54.600 But you know that sounds and it is super harsh, 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:57.080 and if you're a cat person, you're just like horrified 0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:00.480 right now. But what about the bird people? You know? 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:04.240 Right So that's why there's the opposition on one side 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:08.840 or wildlife biologists and conservationists and on the other side, 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:12.880 you know, cat advocates and activists, and they're they're butting 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:15.160 heads over this, and it's like a really big it's 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:17.920 a it's a huge issue one way or another. Uh. 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:20.480 And one one side is saying just leave them alone. 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:21.960 On the other side's like, no, we can't leave them 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:24.680 alone or else they're going to continue to create um 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:29.120 species extinctions and kill billions and billions of birds and 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:32.000 small mammals every year. And there's a lot of ways 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:34.880 that they might do this. There's a story of a 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:40.000 cat named Tibbles. It was a single female cat who 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:42.920 arrived on a little island off of New Zealand called 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:46.800 Steven's Island in the eighteen nineties. There were no cats there. 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:49.840 In fact, there were no predatory mammals, so much so 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:53.920 that the little Steven's Island wrend lost its ability to fly. 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:55.920 It had no reason to fly. It had all the 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:57.800 food it needed on the island, it didn't need to 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:01.640 escape predation. So um, they lost their ability to fly 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:05.160 and became one of just three flightless songbirds in the world. 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:09.640 And now we have two species of flightless songbirds in 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:12.240 the world thanks to Tibbles and the litter that she had. 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:16.520 That's right, Tibbles arrived pregnant, and I mean this is 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:21.040 a very clear cut case of one pregnant cat showed 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:26.080 up and literally Tibbles in the offspring made the Stevens 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:30.000 Island rand no more. It is completely extinct. Yeah, and 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:33.600 so that is that's one single instance where they can 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:36.040 say this cat did this. And I've even seen it, 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:39.160 like said, in places like this, the legend goes or 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:41.560 the story goes or something like that. So I'm not 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:47.280 certain exactly how well documented it is. Um and more 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:50.920 to the point, even if that is a accurate it's 0:16:50.960 --> 0:16:54.680 really difficult to extrapolate that onto you know, the rest 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:57.600 of the world, onto wildlife in general. There's a lot 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:00.800 of factors and a lot of pressures the go into 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:05.639 a species going extinct. But from what I'm seeing, the 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:11.000 conservation biologists and wildlife biologists who are UM doing meta 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:14.320 analyzes of you know, smaller studies and kind of putting 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:19.200 the numbers together, they typically tend to UM to make 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:22.919 suppositions on the lower end. So these numbers may actually 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:26.240 be under reported, they may be much higher UM than 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:28.440 what we think. But the upshot of it is that 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:32.240 there seems to be a UM. Cats seem to be, 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:37.520 if not directly or solely responsible, in some cases, they 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:42.920 are largely responsible for some species extinction. That's right. Um 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:48.560 Cats also spread disease. If you look at rabies in twoteens, 0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:53.200 not that long ago, cats accounted for six of all 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:57.920 rabid domestic animals in the United States. UM. So, like, 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:01.080 I don't know, people talk about like possums and raccoons 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:03.520 and they're just and rats and they're like, oh god, 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:07.240 there you know, rabbit animals. Yet they will feed a 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:12.160 stray you know feral cat, which is something that even 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:14.679 you know, animal people say you shouldn't do because that 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:17.440 just means there will reproduce and there will be more 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:20.840 feral cats. And feral cats don't do so well. They uh, 0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:24.000 they struggle to live and they get they get hurt, 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:25.800 and they get hit by cars and they get run over, 0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:29.240 and I think, uh, a large percentage of the litter 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:31.960 doesn't even make it past six months. So if you 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:36.280 love cats, you shouldn't be feeding feral cats. Yeah, it's 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:38.320 a little you know, it's hard to wrap your head 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:41.480 around it, but that's if you want a healthy population 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:44.119 of cats, you shouldn't feed feral cats. Right. It is 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:46.800 does seem very paradoxical and even mean. But we'll get 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:49.840 into a little more. Y Um. But one of the 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:53.440 things you said about effects cats can have on the ecosystem, 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:58.120 especially feral cats, um is that they in particular spread 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:02.000 um toxoplasma guy in the um, which we had an 0:19:02.119 --> 0:19:06.440 entire episode on years and years and years ago. But um, 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:10.679 it's a it's a type of parasite that can affect um, 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:13.720 that can create neurological symptoms and humans. It can. It's 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:15.840 pretty rare that it actually does that. But it can 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:19.119 cause birth effects in children, uh, in fetuses, which is 0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:23.200 why you're pregnant. You're advised stay away from litter boxes 0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:26.800 or handling cat feces, you know, in general, which is 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:32.920 just good advice generally, um, because of toxoplasma UM. And 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:38.760 it actually can kill other animals too, right, oh sure, uh, 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:42.160 And you know it spreads through those feces. So any 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:44.439 warm blooded I mean we we can get infected. You know, 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:46.840 humans can and do get toxic. I'm sure I have 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:51.480 toxoplasmosis by this point, Um, any warm blooded animal can 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:55.560 get it. And yeah, it can. It can kill uh, 0:19:55.920 --> 0:19:59.480 animals as large as a seal. Yes. And the reason 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:02.200 why cat are so important into this chain is the 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:07.920 UM T gandhi UM eggs can only reproduce or the 0:20:08.119 --> 0:20:11.480 the parasite can only reproduce in the gut of a cat. 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:13.959 So if you take cats out of the equation, if 0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:16.960 you take cats that are roaming around the landscape pooping everywhere, 0:20:17.400 --> 0:20:22.800 you take um toxoplasmosis out of the equation largely too. UM. 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:25.840 And then lastly, chuck one of the other things in 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:29.959 addition to actually you know, wreaking havoc on bird and 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:35.760 small mammal and also vertebrate or um reptile and amphibian 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:40.440 populations too. Um by directly eating them or killing them 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:44.560 for sport, they're they're having an indirect effect on some 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:50.200 other native populations of like hawks, owls, um, larger mammals 0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:52.960 that eat these things for food, like this is their food, 0:20:53.480 --> 0:20:56.320 um that the cats are are killing and eating in 0:20:56.359 --> 0:21:00.280 some cases or sometimes just killing. That's right. And we 0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:02.920 talked a lot about the trickle down effect of removing 0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:06.760 anything from an ecosystem. And certainly birds are a vital 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:10.119 part of any ecosystem. How they uh you know, spread 0:21:10.119 --> 0:21:15.000 the seed and uh pollination, like everything ends up being 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:20.720 affected when you start extincting extincting m sure, extincting birds. Sure. 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:23.840 And so I know it sounds very much like we're 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:26.640 teeing off on cats or not. That's not the point. 0:21:26.680 --> 0:21:30.480 The point is to kind of get across that what 0:21:30.560 --> 0:21:34.560 you think of as like a lovable cuddle bug of 0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:39.120 an animal actually does have negative impacts on the ecosystem. 0:21:39.200 --> 0:21:42.159 In particular the ones that are feral, the ones that 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:44.720 are unowned, the ones that don't have a home to 0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:48.720 go to, the ones that um that it turns out 0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:52.720 we have zero idea of exactly how many there are 0:21:52.800 --> 0:21:56.880 the feral cat populations. That's right. Uh, should we take 0:21:56.880 --> 0:22:00.000 a break? Sure, all right, we'll take our second break 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:03.919 here and we'll talk a little bit more about the 0:22:04.000 --> 0:22:30.440 problem in some solutions right after this. So there are 0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:35.880 about eighty six million pet cats in the United States, 0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:39.080 and uh, and I know I've talked about this before. 0:22:39.080 --> 0:22:44.399 About of those cats are either full time outdoor cats 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:49.119 as your pet or uh, do you let your cat outside, 0:22:49.200 --> 0:22:51.119 you know, for large parts of the day or whatever. 0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:57.880 Indoor outdoor cats, Um that you know, it's it's a problem. 0:22:57.920 --> 0:23:00.359 I don't think people should let their cats out side. 0:23:00.400 --> 0:23:01.960 I think if you have a pet cat, it should 0:23:02.000 --> 0:23:05.480 be an indoor only cat because of the lizards and 0:23:05.560 --> 0:23:07.840 the birds and the mammals that they kill, because of 0:23:07.840 --> 0:23:11.520 the disease that they can spread. I've always been an 0:23:11.560 --> 0:23:14.920 indoor cat person since I've been an adult. I grew 0:23:15.000 --> 0:23:18.040 up having outdoor cats and there was a constant flood 0:23:18.040 --> 0:23:20.280 of dead animals on our front porch, you know, all 0:23:20.320 --> 0:23:22.720 the time, and it was pretty horrifying as a kid 0:23:22.720 --> 0:23:24.840 to grow up with that kind of thing. But um, 0:23:25.600 --> 0:23:27.800 this is one of the situations where you know, we 0:23:27.800 --> 0:23:29.560 don't like to get on our high horse very often, 0:23:29.600 --> 0:23:32.040 but you should keep your cats inside. And if and 0:23:32.160 --> 0:23:34.119 not wanting to deal with the litter box is your issue, 0:23:34.480 --> 0:23:37.040 then you might want to rethink your while you have 0:23:37.119 --> 0:23:40.959 cats Martha Stewart hawks one where like they send you 0:23:41.000 --> 0:23:44.160 a new fresh litter box every however long and then 0:23:44.200 --> 0:23:48.240 you just pack up the one throw it away. Yeah, 0:23:48.280 --> 0:23:50.200 I mean it stinks. I hate cleaning up the litter 0:23:50.240 --> 0:23:54.800 box more than anything. But I love birds and uh 0:23:54.840 --> 0:23:57.840 and chipmunks more than I hate cleaning out the litter box. 0:23:58.200 --> 0:24:00.920 That's a really good way to put it, chuck. So 0:24:01.000 --> 0:24:04.399 that's just free roaming cats is what they what they're called, 0:24:04.480 --> 0:24:07.520 what what you described. It's like they have a house 0:24:07.560 --> 0:24:09.600 to go to, they have people that feed them at 0:24:09.640 --> 0:24:12.840 that house. They're considered a pet, but they're allowed to 0:24:13.640 --> 0:24:18.280 run around the neighborhood as much as they like. Um. So, 0:24:18.359 --> 0:24:21.960 if we have about eighties six million cats um that 0:24:22.040 --> 0:24:26.280 are our pets, intent of them are roaming outdoors. That's 0:24:26.280 --> 0:24:31.760 a significant number. But from the censuses, the studies that 0:24:31.800 --> 0:24:37.160 have been conducted over decades, UM, the feral cat population 0:24:38.680 --> 0:24:44.120 vastly seems to outnumber the free roaming cat population. Some 0:24:44.160 --> 0:24:47.400 studies say, no, it's about the same. Maybe are probably 0:24:47.440 --> 0:24:50.879 a little more feral cats, maybe thirty million. That is 0:24:51.400 --> 0:24:54.359 the lowest I've been able to come up with. His 0:24:54.480 --> 0:24:57.919 thirty million. That's the lowest estimate I've seen across the 0:24:58.119 --> 0:25:01.600 entire internet. I went everywhere on the Internet, and the 0:25:01.640 --> 0:25:05.560 lowest I saw was thirty million. Some sources put it 0:25:05.720 --> 0:25:08.600 more in line with about the total number of pet cats, 0:25:08.640 --> 0:25:12.919 that there's about eighty million feral cats running around again 0:25:13.520 --> 0:25:17.960 the United States alone, just the US UM and that 0:25:18.040 --> 0:25:21.120 if if that is the case, um, then you really 0:25:21.160 --> 0:25:24.119 do start to get into some really big numbers really fast. 0:25:24.160 --> 0:25:28.639 About how how much of an effect those that eighty 0:25:28.760 --> 0:25:32.639 million feral cats uh could have on local bird and 0:25:32.680 --> 0:25:35.720