1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of I 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and Welcome to the Hornet's Nest. I'm Josh, 3 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 1: there's Chuck Cherry's here, and this is stuff you should know. 4 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 1: Josh's idea. Yeah, as I was researching this, I started 5 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: sweating like cartoon bullets off of my forehead, like I was, um, 6 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: little orphan any or something. When she's startled or Nancy, 7 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 1: Nancy is a better one. Do you remember Nancy m 8 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:44,200 Speaker 1: hmm with Lugo? Yeah? Yeah, I remember Nancy and Slugo. Yeah. 9 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,160 Speaker 1: So she is one of the great overlooked comic strips 10 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: of all time, and she's still going on. She's got 11 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: a new breath of life in her. She's using computers 12 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: in the Internet and everything by saying great like almost 13 00:00:55,440 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: kind of subversive humor and outlook that that any um 14 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:05,319 Speaker 1: that that Nancy always had, check it out. I haven't 15 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: looked at the funny papers in a long time. Do 16 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: they still have the old favorite? Yeah? But I don't 17 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: think they call them funny papers anymore because they're not funny, 18 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,680 Speaker 1: and then they never worked. Plus, no one wants to 19 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: point out that it's made of paper that the comics. Yeah, 20 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: I used to love Beatle Bail. Of course, Garfield in 21 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: bloom County. And when I got a little bit older, 22 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:30,960 Speaker 1: the one that has got a little political. That was 23 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:36,479 Speaker 1: so good, Sally Forth, No, I got political, dude, Yeah, 24 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: not bloom County. But the other one that was Jon'sburry, Yeah, Doon'sburry. 25 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,960 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that one was always political. Uh. And then 26 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: Beatle Bailey. I love Beatle Bailey. What about Haggard the Horrible? 27 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: He was fine, a family circus I liked at the time, 28 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: but looking back, it was the least funny comic in history. 29 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 1: It was. It was just it was cute. Brenda Starr Trail, 30 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: Mary worth Mark trail. What was going on with that guy? 31 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 1: It was just a nature propaganda disguised to say a 32 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: comic strip really was, you know, nature propaganda, save the 33 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: Earth and all that big nature. So that's funny that 34 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: you say that, because there's there's a group of people 35 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: who are involved in today's topic that possibly refer to 36 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: their opponents as big nature. Weirdly chuck like, I don't 37 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 1: think they do, but the same sense and sensibility is 38 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 1: still there. Jane Austin reference second one in the in 39 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: two podcasts that's right. Uh so, yeah, can we just 40 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: cavy out this episode? You said it was a hornet's nest. 41 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:53,359 Speaker 1: This is about cats, domestic cats being an invasive species. 42 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but they are. I love cats. I've got 43 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 1: two cats, I've always had cats, always love cats, I 44 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 1: will always have cats. This has nothing to do with 45 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:07,399 Speaker 1: being anti or pro cat. It is just dissecting sort 46 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: of the scientific problem of cats in the same way 47 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: that cats dissect birds and small mammals for sport, right, 48 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: which we talked about a lot, but we'll talk about 49 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:21,640 Speaker 1: it a lot more. Yeah. So I'm with you, Chuck, 50 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: and like we're you know, it is an issue, and 51 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: it's a problem. And one of the things that's contributing 52 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: to making it a problem is that the two sides 53 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 1: are so diametrically opposed and so over one another that 54 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: there's a there's just no conversation going on, and then 55 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: the general public, like you and me, Um are just 56 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: kind of blissfully unaware of this and then just get 57 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: goose every once in a while when the media kind 58 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: of picks up this issue or runs a headline or 59 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: an article about it, Um, and the idea is, like 60 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: you said that that it's pretty pretty much widely held 61 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: among wildlife and conservation biologists that cats, house cats, and 62 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: specifically feral cats are an invasive species around the world 63 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: and have they reak enormous havoc, including species extinction in 64 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: the habitats in our backyards and the habitats that they 65 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 1: inhabit um. But before we really kind of get into 66 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: that and lay out the case one way or another, um, 67 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: we should probably talk about the cat and where the 68 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: cat came from and why they hang out on our 69 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: backyards to begin with. That's right, we should. They came 70 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: we think from the mid mid East with not Mid 71 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: East as in Virginia. That's not the mid East. That's 72 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: the Middle East. That's the mid Atlantic. Yeah, the Middle 73 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: East of planet Earth, which was you know, these wildcats 74 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: from the forest called Felis sylvestris, which is interesting. I 75 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: never thought about Sylvester the cat taking Felix the cat, yeah, 76 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 1: or Felix taking their names from the original cats. But 77 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 1: that is the thought is that they came from there. 78 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: We're most likely domesticated about twelve thousand years ago, and 79 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: we don't know for sure, but the general thought is 80 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: once we started becoming an agriculturally based society, and we 81 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: had grain and seed to store. Then the mice and 82 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 1: the rats started coming around, and the wildcats started coming 83 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 1: around to take care of that problem, and humans were like, hey, 84 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: this is fine with us. And then over time some 85 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: of those cats got a little friendlier than others and 86 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 1: there and the people were like, oh, you like a 87 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 1: little scritch under the neck. Huh, well, you want to 88 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: come inside and have some milk. Shouldn't give cats milk, 89 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 1: But they didn't know that at a time. And that's 90 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:44,599 Speaker 1: the best idea we have going of how cats and 91 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:49,280 Speaker 1: initially became domesticated. Yeah, and there's evidence of, you know, 92 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: of cats being domesticated um that come from Cyprus, where 93 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: there are no native cats. So cat bones and cat 94 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: fossils are sensibly domesticated because they would have had to 95 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,719 Speaker 1: have been taken there by humans by ship. It's possible 96 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 1: the cats stowed away, but it's also just as possible 97 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:10,919 Speaker 1: that eight thousand years ago, when this cat bone on 98 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: Cypress is from Um, the the cat was domesticated enough 99 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: to ride along aboard a ship um with sailors. And 100 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 1: then there's another cat fossil from about years earlier than 101 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,600 Speaker 1: that so just under ten thousand years ago, um, where 102 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:32,840 Speaker 1: the cat was deliberately buried with the human, which strongly 103 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: also suggests domestication. So it's not a really big stretch 104 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 1: that by about twelve thou years ago and we started 105 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: storing surplus grain, that's about the time when cats and 106 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 1: humans really started to kind of coincide. Yeah, And I 107 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 1: think you had probably best described this as a mutualistic 108 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: relationship at this point, because both species are benefiting. We 109 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: have talked in the past about commence al um boom, 110 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 1: and maybe that's how one might have described it, which 111 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 1: is like cats are eating the mice. Humans were like, fine, 112 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 1: big wook, but we don't really care. But I would 113 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: say it's probably more mutualistic, don't you don't you think? Yes? Absolutely, Again, 114 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: I posit that there's no such thing as commence all 115 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: is um. I think both parties, somehow, some way always 116 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 1: are either benefited or harmed by this situation. And this 117 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: is a great example of that because if we're growing 118 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: surplus or for growing grain, we have surplus to feed 119 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: more and more people, um, and the last us through 120 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: the wind or whatever, we have these grain stores. If 121 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,239 Speaker 1: you know, mice and rats come along and eat our grain. 122 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: That's a problem for us. And if the cats come 123 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: along and eat the mice or the rats, that solves 124 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: our problem. So the cat is getting to eat all 125 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: of this food that's showing up that these grain stores 126 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: where otherwise they would have to go and hunt all 127 00:07:55,200 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: over the place. The cats benefiting, we're benefiting mutualism. That's right. 128 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: I agree. Okay, Uh, you don't have to talk me 129 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: into it, buddy, Okay, lay off, then lay off. We 130 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: need T shirts. Man, do we still have T shirts? Oh? 131 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: I don't know either. I haven't seen him in a while. 132 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: We've never done a good job at promoting that stuff. No, 133 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: that's right. Uh. So here's the deal with cats as 134 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: an invasive species, though, is they are very uh hardy 135 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: as a species. They survive even though they don't have 136 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: a real natural range. They can live in many, many 137 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: different environments successfully. Uh. And there are obviously your your 138 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,959 Speaker 1: pet cats, which are I don't think we said what 139 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: was the name of the domesticated cat. Finally, Felis catus, 140 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: which sounds like a bugs bunny cartoon, you know, like 141 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: when road runner would yeah, would they freeze frame? You know, 142 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 1: it's basically what they would write. But that's it was 143 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: totally unimaginative as it gets. So you've got your your 144 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,479 Speaker 1: feral cats, and you've got your cats that live inside 145 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: houses but also freely rome outside like uh, like, oh, 146 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,079 Speaker 1: I have a pet cat, but it never comes inside 147 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: because I don't like changing litter boxes. So we have 148 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: outdoor cats. And then there's the feral cat. And those 149 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: are the two cats that are causing problems. Uh. And 150 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: they are very much different and this is from the grabster. 151 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: He points out they're very different than other quote unquote 152 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: domestic invasive species that you might have as a pet, 153 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 1: because we talked about the Burmese python problem in Florida. 154 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: Those aren't truly domesticated. Uh. And then there are feral 155 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 1: dog populations in the world, and they do cause problems, 156 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 1: but not like cats do. No, definitely not so Um. 157 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: Apparently there's also like a really good case that's made 158 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: that cats aren't truly domesticated either, which rings a bell 159 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 1: to me from our animal Domestication episode. Yeah, I think 160 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: I remember that. I think they're considered semi domestic actually 161 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: person intense and perfect basically or no, they just come 162 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: and go as they please. There they hang around us 163 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: as much as they want to, you know. All right, Well, 164 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: speaking of hanging out, let's take a little break and 165 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: we'll get to the grizzly details of what these cats do, 166 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: because even though you've said it before, you might not 167 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 1: have heard that episode. You might think, what would my 168 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 1: sweet little cat do if let outside besides just creep around. Well, 169 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:47,719 Speaker 1: we'll tell you what they'll do right after this, all right, Chuck. So, 170 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 1: I think anybody who owns a cat that's not indoor 171 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: cat UM has had some experience or other where their 172 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: cat has shown up on their doorstep with a present 173 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 1: of a bird, mouse, a small road, and baby squirrel 174 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 1: um the baby seal, depending on where you are, but 175 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: some some little animal where the cat is saying either hey, UM, 176 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 1: I want you to have this, I really appreciate all 177 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: of the fancy feast. Or they theorize that possibly the 178 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: cat is UM keeping a toy that it was playing 179 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: with earlier. It's brought home to like hang onto, or 180 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:29,199 Speaker 1: it's it's um following and it's UM, I guess kind 181 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: of evolutionary impulse to teach other cats how to hunt. 182 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: It's teaching you how to hunt. That's what it's bringing. 183 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: Those are the big main theories that I saw, Like, 184 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: see how it's done, buddy, Yeah, you see this bird? 185 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: Can you do that? And you may be horrified when 186 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: the cat does that. You may also be like, you know, Felix, 187 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: come on, you can't do that. Where's this bird's head anyway? Um, 188 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: and then just kind of forget about it, put it 189 00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: out of your mind. Maybe you go to the trouble 190 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:01,679 Speaker 1: of bearing the bird, which is nice if you do that, 191 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: but you just move along with your day. Your cat 192 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 1: might do that a few times a year. And if 193 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: you multiply that by the number of cats who are 194 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 1: roaming around, and you number multiply that by the number 195 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:17,439 Speaker 1: of feral cats, you suddenly get into really really really 196 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: big numbers, and the idea of just how destructive invasive 197 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:26,439 Speaker 1: cats are, um really kind of comes into focus. Yeah. 198 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: So here are numbers from uh about nine years ago. 199 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: And this is kind of hard to track, but they 200 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: do the best job that they can with these numbers. Uh. 201 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: Domestic cats, these are to say, pet cats and feral cats. Uh. 202 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 1: And we should say that feral cats kill about three 203 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 1: times is more animals and birds as domestic cats, but 204 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: between one point four in three point seven billion with 205 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: a B birds and sit point nine and this is 206 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: a big range to twenty point seven billion mammals a year. 207 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:09,839 Speaker 1: This is every single year. And you found some more 208 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: stats that really kind of put a cherry on top here. Uh. 209 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:19,319 Speaker 1: Rodents are linked to the extinction of seventy five different species. 210 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: Cats are linked to the extinction of sixty three different 211 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: species where they have completely been extinct, forty bird species, 212 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: twenty one mammal species, and two reptile species. Right, So, UM, 213 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 1: we should say that the UM the species extinction that's global. 214 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: They think the that those numbers that you said between 215 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,439 Speaker 1: up to around four billion birds and as many as 216 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: UM twenties plus billion mammals every year. Chuck, that's in 217 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: the United States alone, and not only in the United 218 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: States one that's to the contiguous forty eight states alone 219 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 1: every year. That's what this two thousand and thirteen study 220 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 1: between Smithsonian Institute and UM the US Fish and Wildlife 221 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: Service concluded. Right, So there are people and you know, 222 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: we'll get to you know, some of the possible solutions 223 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: later on. But if you talk to the head of 224 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 1: the Smithsonian Migratory Bird Center UM and named Pete Mara. 225 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: He will say very clearly that there should be a 226 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: zero tolerance for free ranging cats. Uh, they should be trapped, 227 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 1: they should be removed and not returned um and then 228 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: goes on to say more things that are a little 229 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: more grizzly should be done if you have no other choices, 230 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: which is euthanasia, um, professional hunters, poisons, stuff like that. 231 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: But you know that sounds and it is super harsh, 232 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: and if you're a cat person, you're just like horrified 233 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: right now. But what about the bird people? You know? 234 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: Right So that's why there's the opposition on one side 235 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: or wildlife biologists and conservationists and on the other side, 236 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: you know, cat advocates and activists, and they're they're butting 237 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: heads over this, and it's like a really big it's 238 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: a it's a huge issue one way or another. Uh. 239 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: And one one side is saying just leave them alone. 240 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: On the other side's like, no, we can't leave them 241 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 1: alone or else they're going to continue to create um 242 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: species extinctions and kill billions and billions of birds and 243 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: small mammals every year. And there's a lot of ways 244 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: that they might do this. There's a story of a 245 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: cat named Tibbles. It was a single female cat who 246 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: arrived on a little island off of New Zealand called 247 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: Steven's Island in the eighteen nineties. There were no cats there. 248 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: In fact, there were no predatory mammals, so much so 249 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: that the little Steven's Island wrend lost its ability to fly. 250 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: It had no reason to fly. It had all the 251 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: food it needed on the island, it didn't need to 252 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: escape predation. So um, they lost their ability to fly 253 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 1: and became one of just three flightless songbirds in the world. 254 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: And now we have two species of flightless songbirds in 255 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: the world thanks to Tibbles and the litter that she had. 256 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: That's right, Tibbles arrived pregnant, and I mean this is 257 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: a very clear cut case of one pregnant cat showed 258 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: up and literally Tibbles in the offspring made the Stevens 259 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: Island rand no more. It is completely extinct. Yeah, and 260 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: so that is that's one single instance where they can 261 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: say this cat did this. And I've even seen it, 262 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: like said, in places like this, the legend goes or 263 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: the story goes or something like that. So I'm not 264 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: certain exactly how well documented it is. Um and more 265 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: to the point, even if that is a accurate it's 266 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: really difficult to extrapolate that onto you know, the rest 267 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: of the world, onto wildlife in general. There's a lot 268 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: of factors and a lot of pressures the go into 269 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 1: a species going extinct. But from what I'm seeing, the 270 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: conservation biologists and wildlife biologists who are UM doing meta 271 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: analyzes of you know, smaller studies and kind of putting 272 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 1: the numbers together, they typically tend to UM to make 273 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,919 Speaker 1: suppositions on the lower end. So these numbers may actually 274 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: be under reported, they may be much higher UM than 275 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 1: what we think. But the upshot of it is that 276 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: there seems to be a UM. Cats seem to be, 277 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: if not directly or solely responsible, in some cases, they 278 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 1: are largely responsible for some species extinction. That's right. Um 279 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: Cats also spread disease. If you look at rabies in twoteens, 280 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 1: not that long ago, cats accounted for six of all 281 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 1: rabid domestic animals in the United States. UM. So, like, 282 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: I don't know, people talk about like possums and raccoons 283 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: and they're just and rats and they're like, oh god, 284 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: there you know, rabbit animals. Yet they will feed a 285 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 1: stray you know feral cat, which is something that even 286 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,679 Speaker 1: you know, animal people say you shouldn't do because that 287 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 1: just means there will reproduce and there will be more 288 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: feral cats. And feral cats don't do so well. They uh, 289 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: they struggle to live and they get they get hurt, 290 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: and they get hit by cars and they get run over, 291 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: and I think, uh, a large percentage of the litter 292 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 1: doesn't even make it past six months. So if you 293 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: love cats, you shouldn't be feeding feral cats. Yeah, it's 294 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: a little you know, it's hard to wrap your head 295 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: around it, but that's if you want a healthy population 296 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 1: of cats, you shouldn't feed feral cats. Right. It is 297 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: does seem very paradoxical and even mean. But we'll get 298 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: into a little more. Y Um. But one of the 299 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 1: things you said about effects cats can have on the ecosystem, 300 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 1: especially feral cats, um is that they in particular spread 301 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: um toxoplasma guy in the um, which we had an 302 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: entire episode on years and years and years ago. But um, 303 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:10,679 Speaker 1: it's a it's a type of parasite that can affect um, 304 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: that can create neurological symptoms and humans. It can. It's 305 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: pretty rare that it actually does that. But it can 306 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 1: cause birth effects in children, uh, in fetuses, which is 307 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 1: why you're pregnant. You're advised stay away from litter boxes 308 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: or handling cat feces, you know, in general, which is 309 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 1: just good advice generally, um, because of toxoplasma UM. And 310 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: it actually can kill other animals too, right, oh sure, uh, 311 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 1: And you know it spreads through those feces. So any 312 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 1: warm blooded I mean we we can get infected. You know, 313 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: humans can and do get toxic. I'm sure I have 314 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: toxoplasmosis by this point, Um, any warm blooded animal can 315 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: get it. And yeah, it can. It can kill uh, 316 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: animals as large as a seal. Yes. And the reason 317 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 1: why cat are so important into this chain is the 318 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 1: UM T gandhi UM eggs can only reproduce or the 319 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: the parasite can only reproduce in the gut of a cat. 320 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:13,959 Speaker 1: So if you take cats out of the equation, if 321 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: you take cats that are roaming around the landscape pooping everywhere, 322 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: you take um toxoplasmosis out of the equation largely too. UM. 323 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: And then lastly, chuck one of the other things in 324 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,959 Speaker 1: addition to actually you know, wreaking havoc on bird and 325 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: small mammal and also vertebrate or um reptile and amphibian 326 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 1: populations too. Um by directly eating them or killing them 327 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: for sport, they're they're having an indirect effect on some 328 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 1: other native populations of like hawks, owls, um, larger mammals 329 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: that eat these things for food, like this is their food, 330 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: um that the cats are are killing and eating in 331 00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: some cases or sometimes just killing. That's right. And we 332 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 1: talked a lot about the trickle down effect of removing 333 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: anything from an ecosystem. And certainly birds are a vital 334 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 1: part of any ecosystem. How they uh you know, spread 335 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: the seed and uh pollination, like everything ends up being 336 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: affected when you start extincting extincting m sure, extincting birds. Sure. 337 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: And so I know it sounds very much like we're 338 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,640 Speaker 1: teeing off on cats or not. That's not the point. 339 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 1: The point is to kind of get across that what 340 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: you think of as like a lovable cuddle bug of 341 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:39,120 Speaker 1: an animal actually does have negative impacts on the ecosystem. 342 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:42,159 Speaker 1: In particular the ones that are feral, the ones that 343 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 1: are unowned, the ones that don't have a home to 344 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: go to, the ones that um that it turns out 345 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 1: we have zero idea of exactly how many there are 346 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,880 Speaker 1: the feral cat populations. That's right. Uh, should we take 347 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: a break? Sure, all right, we'll take our second break 348 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 1: here and we'll talk a little bit more about the 349 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 1: problem in some solutions right after this. So there are 350 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:35,880 Speaker 1: about eighty six million pet cats in the United States, 351 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: and uh, and I know I've talked about this before. 352 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:44,399 Speaker 1: About of those cats are either full time outdoor cats 353 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 1: as your pet or uh, do you let your cat outside, 354 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 1: you know, for large parts of the day or whatever. 355 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:57,880 Speaker 1: Indoor outdoor cats, Um that you know, it's it's a problem. 356 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 1: I don't think people should let their cats out side. 357 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: I think if you have a pet cat, it should 358 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 1: be an indoor only cat because of the lizards and 359 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: the birds and the mammals that they kill, because of 360 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 1: the disease that they can spread. I've always been an 361 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,920 Speaker 1: indoor cat person since I've been an adult. I grew 362 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 1: up having outdoor cats and there was a constant flood 363 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: of dead animals on our front porch, you know, all 364 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: the time, and it was pretty horrifying as a kid 365 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 1: to grow up with that kind of thing. But um, 366 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: this is one of the situations where you know, we 367 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: don't like to get on our high horse very often, 368 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: but you should keep your cats inside. And if and 369 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 1: not wanting to deal with the litter box is your issue, 370 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: then you might want to rethink your while you have 371 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,959 Speaker 1: cats Martha Stewart hawks one where like they send you 372 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 1: a new fresh litter box every however long and then 373 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: you just pack up the one throw it away. Yeah, 374 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 1: I mean it stinks. I hate cleaning up the litter 375 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: box more than anything. But I love birds and uh 376 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: and chipmunks more than I hate cleaning out the litter box. 377 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,920 Speaker 1: That's a really good way to put it, chuck. So 378 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 1: that's just free roaming cats is what they what they're called, 379 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: what what you described. It's like they have a house 380 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: to go to, they have people that feed them at 381 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: that house. They're considered a pet, but they're allowed to 382 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: run around the neighborhood as much as they like. Um. So, 383 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 1: if we have about eighties six million cats um that 384 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: are our pets, intent of them are roaming outdoors. That's 385 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: a significant number. But from the censuses, the studies that 386 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:37,160 Speaker 1: have been conducted over decades, UM, the feral cat population 387 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:44,120 Speaker 1: vastly seems to outnumber the free roaming cat population. Some 388 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,400 Speaker 1: studies say, no, it's about the same. Maybe are probably 389 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 1: a little more feral cats, maybe thirty million. That is 390 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 1: the lowest I've been able to come up with. His 391 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,919 Speaker 1: thirty million. That's the lowest estimate I've seen across the 392 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: entire internet. I went everywhere on the Internet, and the 393 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 1: lowest I saw was thirty million. Some sources put it 394 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: more in line with about the total number of pet cats, 395 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,919 Speaker 1: that there's about eighty million feral cats running around again 396 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 1: the United States alone, just the US UM and that 397 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,120 Speaker 1: if if that is the case, um, then you really 398 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 1: do start to get into some really big numbers really fast. 399 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:28,639 Speaker 1: About how how much of an effect those that eighty 400 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 1: million feral cats uh could have on local bird and 401 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 1: small mammal populations. Yeah. And you know if a cat, 402 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: if a feral cat makes it to adulthood, which uh, 403 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,360 Speaker 1: you know, like I said, the pretty high percentage die 404 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: before six months of age. But if they do make 405 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 1: it to adulthood, they are very efficient killers. And there 406 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: are no natural predators for cats. Uh. And you might think, well, no, 407 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,919 Speaker 1: there's plenty things that can kill a cat. There are, 408 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 1: but their populations like you know, a cougar or something. 409 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 1: There aren't many of those left anymore. Those populations have 410 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: been decimated because of all the reasons that that might happen, 411 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 1: And what you end up with is a lot of 412 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: feral cats with UM with nothing hunting them, but they're 413 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,400 Speaker 1: hunting everything else. Well. I found a two thousand thirteen 414 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 1: Ohio state study and they found that UM urban coyotes. 415 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: We did in another episode on coyotes, remember UM. Well, 416 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 1: as their numbers are growing and growing, they're actually keeping 417 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: feral cat populations in check. And as a result, some 418 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: bird species, small mammal species are are UM. Their numbers 419 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: are rebounding because urban coyotes UM tend to keep feral 420 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 1: cats at bay, like feral cats avoid them like the plague. 421 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 1: The thing is is coyotes tend to avoid humans. So 422 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,640 Speaker 1: the feral cats have just been hanging around buildings, offices, businesses, 423 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 1: like human built areas and avoiding kind of more natural 424 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: urban areas like woods and parks and tree forested areas, 425 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,719 Speaker 1: that kind of thing where the coyotes hang out. So 426 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: the wildlife is protected in the in the forested woody 427 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 1: areas of the city, but there there pray like around 428 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: human habitation like buildings and offices and stuff, which makes sense. 429 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: So we've outlined the problem. Uh. It is really sad 430 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 1: because I love cats and I don't like the idea 431 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: of cats being a problem. Um, but they are. So 432 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:34,119 Speaker 1: what are the solutions? The solutions you're leaving that to me? Huh, 433 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 1: we'll both talk about it. But so one of the 434 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: solutions that UM, and this is if you're if you're 435 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:45,439 Speaker 1: a cat advocate and activist, you're probably very much in 436 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 1: favor of uh type of approach called trapped now to 437 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: release TNR programs. These were developed the earliest I saw 438 00:27:54,400 --> 00:28:00,200 Speaker 1: is in the late nineties. UM. Where you if you're 439 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 1: a uh like an animal, um uh animal, what's animal 440 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 1: control like for a county or a city or something 441 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: like that? If you have a trap nooter release program, Uh, 442 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: if you find a cat, UM, you capture it, you 443 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: take it to the shelter, the vet there, spas or 444 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,439 Speaker 1: nooters the cat they clipped the tip of the cat's 445 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: ear off and then you release it back into the 446 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: wild feral cat. UM. And as they're doing this, the 447 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 1: point of trapped neoter release is that the cat is 448 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 1: not euthanized. So it's like an end to euthanasia as 449 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: far as animal shelters. Like you know before trap nooter release, 450 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: if a cat got picked up by animal control and 451 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: made it to the animal shelter, that was it for 452 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: the cat. This is a chance to give cats the 453 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 1: the opportunity to live their life out, but you've taken 454 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: away their ability to reproduce. So you're now managing the 455 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: reproduction rate of a feral cat colony. And if you 456 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 1: get your hands on enough of these feral cats, and 457 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: you spay and neuter enough of them, and you keep 458 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: up with it fast enough, studies have shown that you 459 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 1: have a really good chance of stabilizing and then eventually 460 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: diminishing the feral cats in your area. Yeah, and there 461 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: have been a lot of studies on this. UM. It 462 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 1: was one in twenty nineteen that found over a decade 463 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: UH it's called high intensity TNR was very successful at 464 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: reducing feral cat populations. UM there's high density and low 465 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 1: density TNR. And the idea it seems to shake out 466 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: is that unless you are doing high density, unless you're hitting, 467 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: unless you're getting to like s of the population, then 468 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 1: they say you might as well not even be doing it. Uh, 469 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: so high intensity TNR really works. And then in this 470 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: one study, it had a couple of other interesting parts 471 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 1: to it, is they weren't just measuring how many feral 472 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: cats were out there, but they're trying to do studies 473 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: that like say, hey, we want healthy cat population, so 474 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: let's look at harm reduction for feral cats. So if 475 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: you have over a population and too many feral cats, 476 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: then it's there's a head points out. There's a lot 477 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: of misery going around. They struggle to find food more. Uh, 478 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: they spread disease more. They are constantly pregnant. Cats reproduce 479 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: like bunnies do. Uh, they can have up to three 480 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: litters a year and up to you know twelve the 481 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: fifteen cats per litter. And you know these cats walking 482 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 1: around constantly pregnant, constantly giving birth to kittens that don't 483 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: live more than six months, constantly looking for food because 484 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: they're overstressed. Is that's that's not if you're a cat lover. Again, 485 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 1: that's not what you want. And so they tried to 486 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 1: measure the harm reduction and they found that high tensity 487 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, high intensity TNR reduce preventable cat deaths by 488 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 1: or thirty times yeah, thirty times, not thirty times fewer 489 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: preventable cat deaths. And they define preventable cat deaths by 490 00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: cats that were picked up and euthanized at a shelter 491 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 1: or cats that died before reaching adulthood. And cats have 492 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: a really high UM mortality rate for young cats. UM. 493 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 1: I saw a study from two thousand three or four 494 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,719 Speaker 1: that found UM a mortality rate of about forty eight 495 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: percent within three months of birth and seventy percent within 496 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: six months of birth. And this is you want to 497 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 1: talk about harm reduction. UM. The most common cause of 498 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: death was trauma. So they were getting malled by dogs 499 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: or eagles or owls. Yeah, getting hit by cars. Um. 500 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 1: So it is a really harsh, unhappy life for feral cats. 501 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 1: And the premise of TNR is, Okay, we can actually 502 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: lead to a reduction in these kittens that are being 503 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: born in these horrible conditions, living three months and then 504 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: getting malled by a neighborhood owl or something like that. 505 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: Like that's that's a bonus, that's a plus. But you 506 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 1: hit on something that's really important, Chuck that there is 507 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: a pretty decent amount of research on Actually that's not true. 508 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,080 Speaker 1: There's not that much research on the effectiveness of trapped 509 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: now to release, but the studies that have been done 510 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 1: on them that are high quality studies do emphasize that. No, 511 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 1: there's definitely a threshold to where you're just completely wasting 512 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: time and energy, and even worse than that if you're 513 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: not hitting I think what you say about the sevent 514 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 1: threshold of spaying and new during feral cats in a 515 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 1: given colony. If you're not hitting that mark, you're doing 516 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: worse than nothing, because the people who are aware of 517 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 1: t n R, the TNR program in your city and county, 518 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 1: think you're doing something but not. It's worse than doing 519 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 1: nothing because if everyone knows you're not doing anything, then 520 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: people might say we got to do something. But if 521 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 1: they think you're doing something but you're not actually really 522 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 1: doing anything, that's harmful. And that's ultimately harmful not just 523 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 1: to these kittens that are being were by that like that, 524 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 1: but also to the um, the birds and small mammals 525 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 1: that those kittens are eating within their three to six 526 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: months on earth. That's right. Uh. T and R is expensive. 527 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 1: It takes a lot of time. You know, trapping and 528 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 1: trapping any animal is hard. Like one of our dogs Charlie. 529 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 1: We we trapped it was a feral dog in the woods, 530 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 1: and it took five days to trap these dogs. It's 531 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: it's a commitment to trap an animal. Wait anut, wait 532 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 1: a minute, you have a dog that you trapped that 533 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 1: was ferial. Yeah, yeah, Charlie, I didn't know that. Yeah, Charlie, 534 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: we found in the woods with four other dogs and 535 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: just you know, these dogs would not come near anybody 536 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: when they were puppies, and we we spent with our friends, 537 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 1: uh A, Dare and Elliott spent uh I think you 538 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 1: have like five days trying to trap these dogs and 539 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: Charlie was the last one that was holding out that 540 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 1: we could not get and a Burger King cheeseburger is 541 00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 1: what finally did it. And Charlie spent the first as 542 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 1: a result, spent the first six years of her life 543 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 1: very afraid of people and would just do rounders through 544 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: our house when people would come over and not come 545 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 1: near anybody. But since my daughter came along, were people 546 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: at the house and just over time, she's just the sweetest, 547 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: sweetest girl now and goes up to everybody after like 548 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,840 Speaker 1: twenty seconds. And it used to take days or weeks. 549 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 1: Oh that's cool. It's a great success story there. But 550 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:26,359 Speaker 1: mud imagine I have to say chuck while I can. 551 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 1: Just while you were describing tracking Charlie and her pals, 552 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,839 Speaker 1: I just imagined that that music in that scene from 553 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:34,920 Speaker 1: Planet of the Apes where they're rounding up the humans 554 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: with nets, is that basically what was going on. Now 555 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: we had a big cage, traps on horseback, like dog 556 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,760 Speaker 1: goes in to get food and then the door swing shut. 557 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 1: But Charlie was very smart and Charlie just durned thirteen, 558 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 1: so oh, happy birthday. But a long way of saying 559 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 1: that trapping an animal takes a lot of time and 560 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 1: cats are super smart, and uh, it' time consuming. If 561 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:05,800 Speaker 1: it's expensive, and TNR is just it's hard to get 562 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,480 Speaker 1: a lot of people rallying around it and funding funding it, 563 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: especially if you're expecting, like the county to fund it, 564 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 1: like most of that stuff is going to come from donations. 565 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 1: Plus also, if you're a wildlife or conservation biologists, you 566 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 1: might say, no, I don't want to do TNR at all. 567 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,759 Speaker 1: Like these cats, like let's say you pick one up 568 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 1: at six months and you neuter it and release it 569 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: into a feral colony. Most of those feral colonies are 570 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,239 Speaker 1: managed by the city or the county, meaning that they're 571 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 1: fed right, which ends up attracting more abandoned cats that 572 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 1: haven't been neutered or spade yet. And then worse than that, 573 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 1: let's say these cats live an extra four or five years, 574 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: how many animals do they kill? Yeah, they're not reproducing, 575 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,280 Speaker 1: but you're releasing them back out to kill these birds 576 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,799 Speaker 1: and mammals. And those biologists say this is too big 577 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 1: of a problem to to take up t nur um programs. 578 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 1: We need to do something else. And everybody says, okay, 579 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 1: well what else? What can we do? And the biologists 580 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 1: clear their throats and like kind of like put their 581 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 1: hands in their pockets and look at one another and say, like, 582 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,759 Speaker 1: who's who wants to say it? And uh, the one 583 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,280 Speaker 1: who's on his phone not paying attention to suddenly realizes 584 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,759 Speaker 1: everyone else has taken a step back and he's he's up, 585 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 1: oh boy, oh and that's me. Um. Yeah, it's it's 586 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 1: a terrible thing. But the other solution, uh, is that 587 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 1: you know, I don't even want to say it, but 588 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: it's killing cats. Australia does this pretty effectively. Uh. In 589 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 1: they begin using a poison. Here's the deal. His cats 590 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: probably won't eat poison. So they have these traps where 591 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:48,839 Speaker 1: a cat will go in and it will spray their 592 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:52,239 Speaker 1: fur with poison. The cats groom themselves by looking their fur, 593 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 1: they ingest the poison and they die. Uh and this 594 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:59,759 Speaker 1: is you know, Ed points out. He's like, listen, this 595 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 1: is uh. No one cries for the dead rats and 596 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 1: the dead mice, but uh, you know, dead cats is 597 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:11,400 Speaker 1: You're going to get some public outrage, yes, for sure. 598 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 1: And there's I mean there's a lot that's mixed up 599 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,880 Speaker 1: with that one. You know, we've chosen cats. There's like 600 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 1: only just a small handful of animals on the planet. 601 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 1: Out of all the animals on the planet, there's such 602 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,920 Speaker 1: a select group that we've said, come come live in 603 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: our human world, our human culture, and cats are one 604 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 1: of the top ones. I mean, like cats are pets. 605 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 1: Come into our house, right, yeah, have my milk. And 606 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:37,880 Speaker 1: again the cats like, please, this is really bad for me. 607 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 1: I can't I can't turn it away. Please stop tempting me. 608 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,279 Speaker 1: But it's that's a huge part of it. So like 609 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:49,879 Speaker 1: even even knowing that cats are out there having this 610 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:54,719 Speaker 1: huge effect on on birds and mammals. Um and and 611 00:37:55,520 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 1: like possibly creating species extinction. Um, it's still like that 612 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 1: that doesn't just trigger something in us humans like, oh, well, 613 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 1: then we gotta get rid of cats. That's just not 614 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,239 Speaker 1: that's just not how it works. Um. But that's what 615 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 1: a lot of biologists suggest we do, and not get 616 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 1: rid of all cats, but you know, get rid of 617 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,239 Speaker 1: feral cats, like get do away with t n our 618 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,880 Speaker 1: programs and instead go back to if you pick a 619 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:25,719 Speaker 1: cat up, you take it in and euthanize it. And 620 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,240 Speaker 1: that's that because not only is it not reproducing any longer, 621 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:32,479 Speaker 1: it's also not killing small animals in the time where 622 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 1: between where it's picked up in in spade and neutered 623 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 1: and then released back into the wild and then the 624 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,960 Speaker 1: time that it dies of whatever cause. You know. But again, 625 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,920 Speaker 1: how are you ever going to get anybody behind something 626 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 1: like that? We even want to get behind something like that? 627 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,040 Speaker 1: And like, is that is that a thing that humans 628 00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 1: would want to take on? Like, Okay, we've got this 629 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,839 Speaker 1: big problem. We need to handle it. Um. If we 630 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,759 Speaker 1: handle it this way, we can probably handle basically once 631 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 1: and for all. Um. But is that something we want 632 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,919 Speaker 1: to do? Is that? Is that okay to do. Yeah, 633 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,399 Speaker 1: I mean these are the big questions. I hope you're 634 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,440 Speaker 1: not looking to me for an answer. No, I mean 635 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 1: it's unfortunately, it's definitely rhetorical right now. I mean some 636 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:18,279 Speaker 1: people would answer obviously one way or another. But I 637 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 1: think there's a lot of people who are like, man, 638 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 1: I really do care about birds, and I really do 639 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: care about chipmunks and biodiversity, and I really don't like 640 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 1: invasive species. Like what am I to do? You know, 641 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:32,960 Speaker 1: at the very least, if you have outdoor cats, bring 642 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:36,160 Speaker 1: him inside. Yeah. And that's another thing too. Is one 643 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 1: of the things that that you would have to do 644 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,920 Speaker 1: part and parcel with this is you know, in most 645 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,239 Speaker 1: cities and counties you have to get a license to 646 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,839 Speaker 1: have a dog. You don't necessarily have to do that 647 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,239 Speaker 1: for a cat. You could start creating laws like that, 648 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,319 Speaker 1: create leash laws for cats, like really step it up 649 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: and say, we love cats. You can have a cat, 650 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:55,439 Speaker 1: but you have to keep your cat in the house. 651 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:56,840 Speaker 1: If your cats out of the house, you have to 652 00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,480 Speaker 1: keep your cat on a leash. If a cat's feeral, 653 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:03,320 Speaker 1: it's and get picked up. Um. So there's yeah, there's 654 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:05,799 Speaker 1: there's stuff you can do it's just a question of 655 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 1: will is what it is. Yeah, and you know, uh, 656 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 1: when we said when I said that, before I got 657 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,280 Speaker 1: met with emails of but my cat loves being outside. 658 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:17,399 Speaker 1: They all they do is want to be outside. It's 659 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 1: because they want to go kill things almost exclusively. Like 660 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,279 Speaker 1: cats love to lay in the sunshine. But that's why 661 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:25,920 Speaker 1: you'll find them on sunny spots inside your house. And 662 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:29,160 Speaker 1: those sunny spots are just fine. Um. The cats want 663 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 1: to go out and kill things. That's why they scratch 664 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,759 Speaker 1: at the door if you let them out once. And uh, 665 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:37,640 Speaker 1: you know, I know I'm finding an uphill battle here, 666 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 1: but I love cats and I hate the idea of 667 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:42,920 Speaker 1: running over a cat in my car. That's very traumatizing 668 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:48,920 Speaker 1: for an individual in a family. UM, and the cat Welsh. Sure. 669 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,319 Speaker 1: Uh so that's where I stand. Go ahead and email 670 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,120 Speaker 1: me if you're mad at me. So there's there's UM 671 00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,439 Speaker 1: a group of vocal critics and opponents to the very 672 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,879 Speaker 1: UM people who who produced these studies starting in two 673 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:08,839 Speaker 1: thousand thirteen, and basically anybody who who criticizes tn R programs, 674 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:14,560 Speaker 1: UM who say this, these studies that are getting all 675 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,759 Speaker 1: of this media exposure, they're based on like bad science. 676 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 1: Their numbers are inflated, they're basically making all this stuff up. UM. 677 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,880 Speaker 1: One of the arguments that they make is that cats 678 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:31,880 Speaker 1: UM tend to prey on old or weak um members 679 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,360 Speaker 1: of like bird or small mammal species that probably wouldn't 680 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,920 Speaker 1: have made it to reproduction time anyway, so they're not 681 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:42,360 Speaker 1: actually having an effect on the population. And there's answers 682 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,720 Speaker 1: to all these two that they they've had. There's actually 683 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:46,919 Speaker 1: like there's a flame war going on between this group 684 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:51,840 Speaker 1: of wildlife biologists and specific group of like cat advocates UM, 685 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:55,319 Speaker 1: and they're like answering one another and calling one another out. UM. 686 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 1: But one of the answers to that is, well, okay, 687 00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,360 Speaker 1: that's still there's still animals that are suffering harm because 688 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,080 Speaker 1: cats are killing them. Even if they were going to 689 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:08,120 Speaker 1: die anyway, they're still being mauled by a cat. And 690 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,960 Speaker 1: then also, what data are you basing that on that 691 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:15,320 Speaker 1: cats tend to kill infirm and weak members of species? 692 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,520 Speaker 1: Like where did that come from? So each side, in 693 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:25,960 Speaker 1: classic twenties fashion, is accusing the other of um basically 694 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 1: have like like junk like basing all their stuff on 695 00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:32,080 Speaker 1: junk science, making things up, making kind of character attacks 696 00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:37,120 Speaker 1: being snyed one another. It's just a beautifully twenties twenties argument, 697 00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,200 Speaker 1: you know. So it's it's interesting to read about. But 698 00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:42,000 Speaker 1: then you step back and you think this is really 699 00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:46,160 Speaker 1: serious stuff. We need to do something. Everybody says, we've 700 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,040 Speaker 1: got to do something, either a good t in our 701 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 1: program or something. We can't just keep going on like this. Yeah, 702 00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:58,440 Speaker 1: because doing nothing creates a uh again, colonies of feral 703 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:04,280 Speaker 1: cats that are not living their best life. Right? Oh, 704 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:09,920 Speaker 1: you got anything else? No, not right now? Okay, Well, 705 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 1: if you want to know more about um cats as 706 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:16,600 Speaker 1: invasive species and in particular trap nowter release programs, you 707 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 1: can read all about that stuff all over the internet. 708 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:21,160 Speaker 1: There's a ton of it out there. And since I 709 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:23,160 Speaker 1: said there's a ton of it out there, it's time 710 00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:28,960 Speaker 1: for a listener mail. I'm gonna call this Greenbrier Bunker. Addendum, 711 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:30,759 Speaker 1: We heard from a few people that have been there, 712 00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,120 Speaker 1: taken the tour, and had other interesting things to say. 713 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:38,160 Speaker 1: And this is from Greg Soster and Columbus. Oh hi, 714 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:42,120 Speaker 1: oh okay, uh let me see here. Let me skip 715 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:46,759 Speaker 1: the beginning. Uh. My family returned to the Greenbrier they 716 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:50,280 Speaker 1: had previously been there in ninete uh for a Christmas 717 00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:53,319 Speaker 1: stay the time. This time the bunker was known by 718 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,279 Speaker 1: the general public, and we signed up for the guided tour. 719 00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,400 Speaker 1: So I guess when they went in nine it was 720 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:03,080 Speaker 1: still not known as as a thing, so they were 721 00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:06,960 Speaker 1: those kind of shrouded in mystery at that point. Um, 722 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,200 Speaker 1: here we go. Number one. The back entrance also as 723 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,560 Speaker 1: an enormous blast doors with a very long haul leading 724 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:16,080 Speaker 1: to the under the mountain. A truck has to be 725 00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:18,600 Speaker 1: able to drive in the ear pressure when they close 726 00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:24,440 Speaker 1: it is amazing. Other interesting rooms included dennis office, surgical 727 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:28,279 Speaker 1: operating room, and a crematorium, a TV studio, and a 728 00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:32,239 Speaker 1: water purification plant. Uh the answer, and we heard from 729 00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:34,560 Speaker 1: quite a few people here. Families do not go to 730 00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,880 Speaker 1: the bunker. Each member of Congress is an assign bunk, 731 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:43,040 Speaker 1: and each bunk has their prescription medicines fully stocked and 732 00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:47,160 Speaker 1: spare prescription eyeglasses for everybody as well. Oh that's such 733 00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:52,280 Speaker 1: a great touch. Yeah, otherwise, you call Vanderbilt right. Congress 734 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:54,880 Speaker 1: arrives by plane. There's a giant airstrip about ten miles away, 735 00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:57,560 Speaker 1: and the Army built a wide super highway from the 736 00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:00,640 Speaker 1: airport straight to the bunker. Secret Service would one run 737 00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:03,000 Speaker 1: drills to get the president to the bunker in eleven 738 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:07,960 Speaker 1: minutes or less. Uh. And then finally it is strange 739 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:10,920 Speaker 1: to drive there because uh it is. It was windy, 740 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:12,840 Speaker 1: and it was a two lane road and then suddenly 741 00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,239 Speaker 1: the last two miles it's like a race track. I 742 00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:17,440 Speaker 1: remember joking my wife that the Greenbrier had a heck 743 00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:20,080 Speaker 1: of a driveway. So they're talking about the super highway 744 00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:23,200 Speaker 1: that leads right to it. And just to finish out, 745 00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:26,280 Speaker 1: Greg says the entire hotel staff in many towns, people 746 00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:28,279 Speaker 1: knew about the secret for decades, and they kept the 747 00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,920 Speaker 1: secret out of a sense of duty and pride. They 748 00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:34,000 Speaker 1: hated that when the secret was revealed by Mr ted 749 00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:38,399 Speaker 1: Gup because the pronational Trevor treasure was lost. That's pretty neat. 750 00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:44,600 Speaker 1: So who is that from? That was from Gregg in Columbus? O. Hi, Oh, 751 00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:46,920 Speaker 1: that's right, Thanks a lot, Greg, that was a good one. 752 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,120 Speaker 1: Appreciate that info. Uh. And if you want to be 753 00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:53,239 Speaker 1: like Greg and send along some info to us, uh, 754 00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:55,120 Speaker 1: we'll try to sort through it from all the hate 755 00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:57,520 Speaker 1: mail we're getting from cat lovers. In the not too 756 00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:00,160 Speaker 1: distant future, you can wrap it up spanking on the 757 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,320 Speaker 1: bottom and send it off to stuff podcast at iHeart 758 00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:09,160 Speaker 1: radio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production 759 00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,120 Speaker 1: of I heart Radio. For more podcasts my heart Radio, 760 00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,440 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 761 00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:19,680 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows. H