WEBVTT - The Icon 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.520 This show contains mature content and adult themes, it may 0:00:03.560 --> 0:00:05.720 not be suitable for young audiences. 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:07.640 It's not about career. 0:00:07.720 --> 0:00:12.520 It's about believing in something. It's about prosperity, and it's 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:17.680 about caring and empathizing and wanting to create the best, 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:19.880 the most true to life, the most real. 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:24.760 Well, that's something that you wouldn't hear a lot of 0:00:25.640 --> 0:00:26.680 Hollywood people say. 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:28.960 That's why I don't hang out and talk to those 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:32.159 Hollywood people, because they're there to hurt me. 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:38.120 Hurt my view from Variety and iHeart Podcasts. This is 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:43.320 Variety Confidential, The Life and Legend of River Phoenix. I'm 0:00:43.360 --> 0:00:47.520 Tatiana Siegel, Executive editor of Film and Media at Variety. 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:51.639 Over the course of the past three episodes, we've explored 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:55.440 the life of the late actor, musician, and activist River Phoenix, 0:00:55.920 --> 0:00:59.440 from his unconventional upbringing to the once in a generation 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:03.480 talent that led to a promising career in Hollywood. We 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:07.200 also went deep into the events surrounding his untimely passing 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:12.320 at the age of twenty three, and all these years later, 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:17.440 River Phoenix's death is still shocking. On the thirtieth anniversary 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:22.200 of Standby Me, Rivers co star Richard Dreyfus told Variety, quote, 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:26.640 there are certain actors like Philip Seymour Hoffman. When Philip died, 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:30.160 what we were grieving about was not only that he died, 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:33.440 but that he took a very well known future away 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:37.920 from us. We knew he had all these great performances 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:41.600 to come. That left a big hole. The same thing 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:44.800 is true of River Phoenix. He was, without question, the 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:47.080 best of that group of actors that came up at 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:51.480 that time. Movie stardom is not just acting talent. It's 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:54.200 not just your ability to move an audience. It's a 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:56.640 combination of a lot of things, and he had it. 0:01:56.880 --> 0:01:59.400 He died so young that it was a real theft, 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:06.000 a real robbery end quote. In our final episode, we'll 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:09.880 unpack how with only fourteen film credits, River Phoenix has 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:13.800 left an indelible mark in Hollywood and beyond. We begin 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:17.800 with addiction specialist and former host of Celebrity Rehab, doctor 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:21.600 Drew Pinsky, who joins us to discuss the deadly combination 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:25.680 that his celebrity status and opioids, and how River's tragic 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:29.480 death should be viewed as a cautionary tale. Doctor Drew 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:32.520 provides his perspective as a professional who has worked with 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:35.280 a range of Hollywood actors but did not treat River 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:39.000 Phoenix personally. Doctor Drew, You've seen more than your fair 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:42.800 share of celebrities struggling with addiction. Were you familiar with 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:46.200 the circumstances of River Phoenix's death back in nineteen ninety three. 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:49.480 I was aware of it, and I knew people that 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:51.880 were around him, who had been around him that I 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:52.600 treated later. 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:56.359 He was only twenty three when he died, vising famous 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:59.040 that young put one at a greater risk. 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:03.160 Yes, and no. I mean we all are aware of 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:08.280 childhood stars and the potential for adverse outcomes there. And 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:12.920 as my friend Danny Bonaducci always schooled me, the child 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:17.720 stars that he saw did poorly came from childhood trauma, 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:21.600 came from problematic family systems. And then you add to 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:26.320 that the parentalization, the adultifying of kids, you know, making 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:30.440 them work in an adult environment, have adult responsibilities, that 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:33.680 in itself is traumatizing to kids. Kids need to be kids, 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:36.840 and when you put them in adult roles, it's not 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:38.920 good for them. And on top of that, many of 0:03:39.000 --> 0:03:43.120 these productions are so tight and sort of intimate that 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:46.200 they feel like a surrogate family to these young people oftentimes, 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:49.560 and then when the project ends, everyone just goes their 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:52.200 separate way, and it's often very startling to young people. 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:56.839 It feels like another abandonment, another loss. So those were 0:03:56.840 --> 0:04:00.560 the risks come from. Then, if you have addictive netics 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:05.600 on hand, they have a tendency to manifest in that 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:08.720 the kids starts looking for solutions to their pain and 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:11.000 they find their way to substances, and then they have 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:14.080 a second problem now, and that is the problem of addiction. 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:17.800 And if they're very famous and can keep people around 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:21.400 them or have you know who who either endorse or 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:25.400 can't restrain the use, then it will progress. Now were 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:27.760 things that was sort of a strange case. It was 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:32.360 stimulants and he had clearly had a cardiac arrhythmia and 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:36.120 went down, and there was a lot of I don't know's, 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:38.240 I don't know the details of the event, but it 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:40.839 seemed like more could have been done, but everyone was 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:43.360 so fearful that his addiction, you know, his drug use 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:45.520 would be exposed, that he didn't quite get the care 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:48.719 he should have in the time, the manner he should have, 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:52.120 and he certainly didn't get addiction treatment that was effective. 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:55.719 Can you walk us through how celebrity drug use often 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:57.600 starts like. 0:04:57.560 --> 0:05:01.640 Everybody else le me Drake, like everybody else, everybody any added, 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:05.520 any addict. It typically starts an adolescence in young adulthood 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:10.400 that typically starts with cannabis. Alcohol use typically starts in 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:13.040 the home. That's where they get their first drink typically, 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:18.080 and a genetic disorder is activated. And if you add 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:21.440 trauma into that, then they for the first time in. 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:26.480 Their lives feel well because of the drugs, and they 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:30.799 keep using and then they trigger this progression we call addiction, 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:32.160 which takes. 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:35.200 Over all the other priorities in their life. I mean, 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:37.560 the best example of the history of this and the 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:41.800 recovery is Robert Daddy Junior. He is by far had 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:45.560 the most serious life threatening addiction and did what he 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:49.280 needed to do, which was drop out, focused on his recovery, 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:52.919 and nothing but his recovery, not even contemplate coming back, 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:56.400 and then came back slowly with the direction of his 0:05:56.480 --> 0:06:00.000 recovery community and staying in the program to this day. 0:06:00.640 --> 0:06:03.599 And you know, he was in prison and he was 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:08.159 dying of opiate addiction, and he now has a flourishing 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:10.080 career because he did what he needed to do, but 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:14.120 when he was in his recovery, he didn't know if 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:16.440 he was ever going to act again. And the problem 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:20.000 with a lot of celebrities and treatment these days is 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:23.039 they don't stay in treatment long enough and they return 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:26.279 to work prematurely, both because they love their work and 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:29.240 it gives them a lot of sort of narcissistic gratification, 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:31.720 but also because they make a lot of money for 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:33.920 themselves and other people, and so they push to bring 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:37.919 them back to work, and that's the biggest liability for 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:40.839 recovery for treatment with celebrities. 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:44.960 According to the autopsy, River had been speedballing the night 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:48.440 of his death, Doctor Drew, can you explain what speedballing is? 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:52.719 People is mixing a stimulant with heroin. It sort of 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:57.360 enhances and sustains the high. Very popular cocaine and heroin 0:06:57.480 --> 0:07:02.640 is very popular back then. Unusual there usually hard to 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:05.560 know how he progress, but usually heroin is the primary 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:08.400 drug and then cocaine is just used as an adjuvant 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:09.520 trying to enhance things. 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:12.680 So, in your opinion, why do you think many of 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:17.120 these young celebrities like a River Phoenix are uniquely vulnerable 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:17.920 to drug addiction. 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:22.000 They're not unique that there is nothing special about celebrity. 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:25.360 I cannot say that strongly enough. It's not as though 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:30.160 I have a separate diagnostic manual for celebrities. They are 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:35.040 the same. It's just like everybody. There's a context for 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:38.880 their addiction, and their context is if it's child's stardom. 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:42.040 I explained how parentifying. You heard all that, right, So 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:44.040 they have some trauma coming in, then if they have 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:46.880 the genetics, then they go. And if then if they 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:50.880 have the power to avoid consequences, they progress. If they 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:53.000 are still dependent, or if they have people in their 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:55.560 lives like employers and things who can pull them asides 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:57.480 and put them in treatment, well they do better. 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:04.560 River's overdose death predates Matthew Perry's by a few decades. 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:08.960 It also comes after John Belushi's. And yet whenever these 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:14.200 celebrity drug overdose deaths happen, including Philip Seymour Hoffmann and 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:18.360 Chris Barley and Heath Ledger and more recently Angus Cloud, 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:22.000 it comes as such a shock, but it shouldn't. 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:27.960 Right right, Yes, recognitions, they potentially fatal illness, and I 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:32.160 have the only published research on this, and what we 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:34.560 were able to show in our research very clearly is 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:38.680 that people that seek celebrity have more childhood trauma, have 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:42.760 more narcissistic defense strategies, and tend to have more addictions. 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:49.679 And the big celebrities, the very powerful celebrities, construct their 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:52.640 lives in such a way that they dismiss people from 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:56.559 their inner circles who attempt to pull them aside and 0:08:56.600 --> 0:08:59.080 get them to do something about their addictions. So the 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:03.680 addiction is able to spiral unrestricted, and when addiction progresses 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:08.840 without any constraints, it leads to death typically, And you 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:11.920 can't force people into treatment in this country. You know 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:14.640 that maybe people tried. I wouldn't be surprised if they did. 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:18.480 There are two aspects of addiction that everyone doesn't seem 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:25.480 to understand. It's progressive and it's potentially fatal commonly, so 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:29.880 a surprise when a drug addict dies is a lack 0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:34.200 of understanding of what this disease is. Your probability, if 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:38.719 you're an opiate addict, your probability of dying is significantly 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:42.760 worse than the majority of cancer patients. Why we can't 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:45.160 get that through to people, I don't know the fact 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:47.320 that we hand out drugs to people on the street 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:53.080 is nothing short of manslaughter. They will die. It progresses 0:09:53.160 --> 0:09:54.880 no matter where you get the drug, no matter how 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:57.760 you get the drug. It's a progressive illness. 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:01.480 Matthew Perry and River Phoenix were after working together in 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:04.240 a Night in the Life of Jimmy Reardan. Do you 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:06.800 think it makes any difference to someone who sees a 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:10.520 friend go through addiction or even overdose in terms of 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:12.199 their own drug usage? 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:16.679 I mean, it doesn't stop their addictions. Sometimes it gets 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:20.040 them to come to treatment because they you know, it 0:10:20.080 --> 0:10:22.720 gets through their denial a little bit. What can happen? 0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:26.160 But drug addicts are concerned with one thing and one 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:29.640 thing only, and that is doing drugs, and every other 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:32.760 brain system, all their other good judgment, all their other 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:38.440 good intentions, serves that distorted motivation. So to get through 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:44.840 that requires a lot, and somebody else's death sometimes gets there, 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:49.440 but not not necessarily. Not necessarily, And maybe it slowed 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:53.160 Matthew's down and he had a very different, very different 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:56.680 course of addiction than really Phoenix and Matthew Perry struggled 0:10:56.679 --> 0:11:00.000 with treatment. Matthew tried treatment, tried very hard. Maybe that's 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:01.280 that's why he lived as long as he did. I 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:05.240 don't know, but there was some obviously some missteps along 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:05.560 the way. 0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:09.800 In your opinion, has anything gotten better in Hollywood since 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:14.960 River's death, in terms of studios, producers, agents, all of 0:11:14.960 --> 0:11:17.920 them being more supportive of young stars and getting them 0:11:17.960 --> 0:11:18.920 help when they need it. 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:24.719 You mentioned John Belushi early, right, And then people did 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:27.840 not understand addiction. Dan Eckert has talked about that. He's 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:29.640 talked about how well we knew we had did drugs, 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:31.760 but we didn't understand what addiction was. We didn't know 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:36.680 what was necessary to get better. And so since that era, yes, 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:40.040 things have gotten a lot better, and so we've come 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:43.160 to a more modern understanding of addiction. But I think 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:46.560 people still have this sense that people should be able 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:50.199 to be fixed or if they would just do treatment. Look, 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:54.959 on average, on average, for a bad alcoholic, it takes 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:59.280 four treatments and five years to get one year of sobriety. 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.880 That is on average, and that's alcohol and alcohol it 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:05.840 can be really horrible, of course, but not opiate addiction. 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:10.240 And so there's still a great deal of confusion about 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:13.839 the progressivity of these things and the seriousness of them, 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:15.880 and what's required to get well. 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:20.240 For anyone listening, whether it's a parent or a friend 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:23.800 or a family member, or around someone who has substance 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:28.200 abuse issues, what would you advise, what would you caution against? 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:33.520 Do not walk on eggshells, address it very directly, do 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:36.760 it from a place of love and concern. And there's 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:40.079 only and I mean only one thing you can do 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:44.920 that will contribute to the outcome, and that is you yourself. 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:49.720 Go to alan On or another codependency program, get a sponsor, 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:54.120 and work your program. Because the disease is interpersonal. It 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:57.400 takes every strength in every weakness, including other people in 0:12:57.400 --> 0:13:01.160 that person's life, and pulls them in. The Audrey to 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:03.600 the plant in the little Shop of Horror is a 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:06.960 perfect model for addiction. If you go near the plant, 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:10.360 it eats you. That's how addiction works. Unless you have 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:13.240 somebody else there pulling you back, and that is your 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:16.800 sponsor or therapist or things like that. On your own, 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:20.559 it will find a way under your skin and every 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:26.199 good instinct you have will be used to maintain the disease. 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:29.200 So you must if you're actually care or you have 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:32.520 to leave with love and care, and don't leave out 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:36.679 of anger and rejection, because sometimes loss is something that 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:40.360 will catch their attention, but ideally in their lives, stay 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:42.640 in their life, but change the dance. And the only 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:46.320 way to change that dance is by your codependency being managed. 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:50.360 If somebody has a first ree relative with addictionary alcoholism 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:55.079 and they are starting to use, lose control of their 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:59.760 relationship with any substance, or they're using dangerous iliciit substances 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:02.439 can kill you. On their own, you're in big, big, big, 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:06.200 big trouble and they need treatment immediately, and to not 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:10.120 treat them as certain certain progressions, certain trouble and possible 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:15.120 death you yourself. The non addicts have to also have 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:19.600 a support system because you will get sucked in. It's 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:25.040 a cunning illness and it just gets it drags you in, 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:30.680 not intentionally, there's no intention behind it. It's all the 0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:35.120 brain systems, including it or personal are directed towards getting drugs, 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:39.600 and so you'll get dragged in, I promise without without 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:42.360 some help. And that's why parents can't do this alone. 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:44.400 That's why I loved ones can't do this alone. You 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:48.960 can't because every good instinct you have, every important feeling 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:53.800 you have about that person will get used to get 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:55.280 to drugs. Period. 0:14:56.600 --> 0:15:00.080 At the time of River Phoenix's death in nineteen ninety three, 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:02.200 the actor had about a month left of filming on 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:05.160 Dark Blood and had been slated to play the reporter 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:08.840 in Interview with a Vampire, a role that Christian Slater 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:12.320 eventually stepped in to phil These unfinished works were a 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:15.960 stark reminder of a life taken too soon. The large 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:19.920 and very public outpouring of grief surrounding Phoenix's passing was 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:23.800 also a testament to the actor's impact. According to Variety 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:28.280 reports published in the weeks following his death, simultaneous private 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:32.320 memorial services were held for him on November fourth. Actor 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:35.080 Ione Sky, who co starred with River in A Night 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:38.640 in the Life of Jimmy Reardon, organized one in Los Angeles, 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:42.240 while his family held another at their home in Gainesville, Florida. 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:47.480 River's longtime agent Iris Burton called Variety after the memorial 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:50.880 service in Gainesville and described it as a quote love 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:54.320 in end quote end quote, a meeting of a circle 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:58.680 of friends end quote. In addition to family, those there 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:04.320 included girlfriend Samantha Mathis, his Sneakers co star Dan Ackroyd, 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:08.680 and The Thing Called Love co star Dermott Moloney, Red 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:13.880 Hot Chili Pepper's bassist Fleet and Rim frontman Michael Stipe. 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:18.680 As for the circumstances surrounding River's death, Burton told Variety 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:22.800 the following quote, Being a young actor growing up so fast, 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:26.080 with so much being offered, and doing so many things 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:30.440 is insanity. They should stop playing the field, stop playing around, 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:33.920 stop the partying, just concentrate on their work and their 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:36.720 good fortune. I hope they will all learn from this 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:43.000 tragedy end quote. A private, invitation only tribute was held 0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:47.200 two weeks later, on November nineteenth, nineteen ninety three, at 0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:51.440 the Paramount Theater. Variety reported that the guest speakers included 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:58.040 Sydney Poitier, Rob Reiner, Jerry O'Connell, Naomi Fohoner, Richard Benjamin, 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:05.320 John Borman, Christine Lati, Peter Bogdanovich, Helen Mirren, Iris Burton, 0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:10.080 and River's mother Heart Phoenix. Tom Cruise, who was on 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:14.000 location for interview with a Vampire, sent a note quote, 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:16.720 I'll miss never having the opportunity to work with him. 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:20.440 End quote. Jonathan Price, who co starred with River in 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:24.840 the uncompleted Dark Blood, wrote a touching paternal note, saying quote, 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:27.760 I only knew him for eight weeks, but I felt 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:33.400 I could know him forever end quote. Nearly three decades 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:39.000 after his death, River Phoenix's influence continues to reverberate throughout Hollywood. 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:43.560 From his fearless choice of roles to his commitment to activism, 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:47.520 he set a precedent for young actors to pursue meaningful 0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:51.399 work while staying true to their values. To help us 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:56.359 understand the actor's lasting impact, Variety's executive editor Brent Lang 0:17:56.840 --> 0:18:01.639 and chief film critic Owen Gleiberman join us now. Together, 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:05.520 we'll discuss River's influence on the film industry, his enduring 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:09.520 cultural resonance, and the lessons his life and death have imparted. 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:13.560 Oh On, when you think back to the nineties, who 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:16.440 were the other actors who were in the same league 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:16.920 as River. 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:20.600 There was definitely a new generation of actors coming together 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:23.120 in the nineties. I guess you could sort of say 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:26.840 that their forbear with Sean pen because he was that 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:31.000 one actor in the nineties who'd come up through that 0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:36.360 kind of cheeseball culture but was much more serious, much 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:40.840 more moody, much darker. So the new generation was darker. 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:43.160 But then you had people like Matt Damon come Along 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:46.720 in a sense, who was a very serious actor but 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:52.560 also kind of an old school young leading man in 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:57.320 a way. I think someone like River Phoenix probably had 0:18:57.359 --> 0:18:59.760 the potential to be that and might have become that. 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:02.800 I mean, I think it's so interesting to talk about 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:06.360 what would have happened had he not died. I think, 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:09.119 you know, he could have gone anywhere. He could have 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:11.760 been a very very big star. He could have had 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:13.960 leading man roles. I think the best way to think 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:16.720 about what would have happened to River Phoenix had he 0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:20.359 lived is to follow the prototype of Brad Pitt. You know, 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:22.639 he went after the role. River Phoenix went after the 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:25.800 role that Brad Pitt got in A River runs through it, 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:30.800 and you can sort of see him following that trajectory 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:35.040 being this kind of good looking movie young star. And 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:38.480 people didn't take Brad Pitt that seriously at the start, 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:42.240 but he proved himself as an actor in movie after movie, 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:45.280 and I think River Phoenix would have had I'm not 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:47.440 saying he would have had the exact same kind of career, 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:49.040 but I think he would have had those kinds of 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:53.639 opportunity to be the leading man, to be in popcorn 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:58.920 movies to be in deadly serious indie movies the whole thing, 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:03.720 or Phoenix had ever made comic book blockbusters or something. 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:06.680 I can't predict yes or no, but what I can 0:20:06.800 --> 0:20:10.240 say is he would have had that opportunity. They would 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:12.960 have rolled out the red carpet for him to play 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:14.960 those kinds of roles, and at a certain point he 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:16.840 would have probably had to make a choice, you know, 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:20.040 am I going to Am I gonna do that mainstream 0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:25.959 Hollywood thing. My guess is that he would have because 0:20:26.040 --> 0:20:30.280 I don't think he had the kind of chip on 0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:33.720 his shoulder about that stuff that someone like Sean Penn does. 0:20:34.280 --> 0:20:36.440 And I'm not dissing Sean Penn by saying that, because 0:20:36.440 --> 0:20:39.320 Sean Penn, in a way has walked the straight and 0:20:39.440 --> 0:20:42.520 arrow for decades as an actor, always taking just roles 0:20:42.520 --> 0:20:46.640 that he thinks are are interesting, and there's a tremendous 0:20:46.840 --> 0:20:49.479 integrity to the way that he's done that. But then 0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:51.560 there's also the thing that just says, all right, let's 0:20:51.600 --> 0:20:54.080 go let's do a blockbuster, let's do a comic book movie. 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:55.800 Let's try that on. Let's see what it looks like. 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:58.439 Plenty of great actors have done that. 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:00.960 Phoenix. I could see. 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:04.119 I could see him going that way because I just 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:06.119 think he had that kind of spark. I think he 0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:09.560 was a very serious actor who didn't take himself that seriously. 0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:12.639 He was not pretentious about himself, and I think he 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:14.359 kind of went with the flow. 0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:16.399 And Brad, how about you. 0:21:17.200 --> 0:21:19.480 I mean, I think if you look at basically Leonardo 0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:24.720 DiCaprio's career, there's no reason that River couldn't have played 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:27.800 almost any of those roles. And I would assume he 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:29.840 would have been up for most of them. I mean, 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:32.359 I could have seen him. He was such a good 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:34.920 actor that he could have played the role that Leo 0:21:35.040 --> 0:21:38.040 played in Titanic, or he could have played the role 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:40.800 that Leo nearly played in Boogie Knights that ultimately Mark 0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:43.120 Wahlberg played. I mean, I think he would have been 0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:45.480 up for basically anything. 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:46.399 You know. 0:21:46.480 --> 0:21:48.960 I don't think he would have been sort of the 0:21:49.040 --> 0:21:51.920 Russell Crowe burly man. It would have been more of 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:55.600 the kind of the sensitive star. But he really could 0:21:55.600 --> 0:21:58.280 have done it all. And I think he also could 0:21:58.359 --> 0:22:02.400 have straddled that gap between kind of the more commercially 0:22:02.480 --> 0:22:06.080 minded fair and the more director driven stuff, because already 0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:09.600 he had worked with really great filmmakers. He'd worked with Spielberg, 0:22:09.640 --> 0:22:13.080 He'd worked with Sidney Lamett, He'd worked with Gus van Sand, 0:22:13.520 --> 0:22:15.320 He'd worked with Rob Reiner. I mean, all of these 0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:20.000 people are very serious minded directors, and it sort of 0:22:20.160 --> 0:22:22.440 showed how in demand he was. He worked with Peter 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:26.080 Weir at Mosquito Coast. He was a Harrison Ford had 0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:29.320 sort of had told Spielberg to cast him in the 0:22:29.400 --> 0:22:32.359 Indiana Jones film, so he had the endorsement of a 0:22:32.440 --> 0:22:35.400 lot of major industry figures at the time of his death. 0:22:36.000 --> 0:22:38.840 Thanks Brent. Now, let's listen to this interview from the 0:22:38.920 --> 0:22:39.720 early nineties. 0:22:40.640 --> 0:22:40.680 No. 0:22:40.840 --> 0:22:47.520 I started acting through auditioning and trial by uh basically. 0:22:47.680 --> 0:22:50.639 Howl do you then when you started ten does that? 0:22:50.760 --> 0:22:57.480 Some television commercials and then later you get cast in 0:22:57.560 --> 0:22:58.920 the film if you're lucky. 0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:03.600 Really explain why I understand what I understand, I just do, 0:23:04.520 --> 0:23:06.600 and to try to figure it out I think would 0:23:06.680 --> 0:23:09.240 kind of ruin it, you know. I want to leave 0:23:09.280 --> 0:23:14.240 it like a mine of gold, you know, without ever 0:23:14.400 --> 0:23:16.280 mining it, you know, and selling it. I want to 0:23:16.359 --> 0:23:18.600 sell it off. I don't want to talk about it. 0:23:18.640 --> 0:23:19.720 I don't want to understand it. 0:23:20.000 --> 0:23:20.800 In a way that will. 0:23:20.720 --> 0:23:22.000 Exploit the pureness. 0:23:22.560 --> 0:23:23.280 So I just leave it. 0:23:23.440 --> 0:23:25.520 I don't understand it, but I believe it. 0:23:27.119 --> 0:23:27.840 You're a natural. 0:23:29.280 --> 0:23:30.199 I'm not saying anything. 0:23:30.840 --> 0:23:32.560 I'd say, Okay, thank you very much. 0:23:33.280 --> 0:23:37.880 In many ways, River Phoenix's legacy continues through his brother Joaquin, 0:23:38.359 --> 0:23:40.760 who was one of the biggest stars in Hollywood and 0:23:40.880 --> 0:23:44.440 won the Best Actor Oscar for playing Joker in twenty twenty. 0:23:45.080 --> 0:23:48.480