WEBVTT - Guns Part 1: The Sudden Celebrity of Sir John Knight 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:21.396 Bushkin. Over the next stretch of revisionist history, we have 0:00:21.436 --> 0:00:25.516 a special treat for you, six episodes, all devoted to 0:00:25.596 --> 0:00:29.316 one theme, an examination of the many, weird and strange 0:00:29.356 --> 0:00:33.916 corners of the American obsession with guns. It's about what 0:00:33.996 --> 0:00:37.076 we don't know, what we get wrong, how we screwed up, 0:00:37.236 --> 0:00:40.916 and how utterly bizarre things get in a country where 0:00:40.916 --> 0:00:43.756 guns stand at the center of our culture. Our journey 0:00:43.796 --> 0:00:47.636 begins in seventeenth century England with a mysterious merchant named 0:00:47.676 --> 0:00:52.076 John Knight, who inexplicably has become a twenty first century 0:00:52.156 --> 0:00:55.276 legal celebrity. Then on to the New York City subways, 0:00:55.716 --> 0:00:58.436 the hallowed halls of the Supreme Court, a little town 0:00:58.476 --> 0:01:01.716 in rural Alabama, the south side of Chicago, and the 0:01:01.756 --> 0:01:06.076 wild wob West Dodge City. To be exact, I'll show 0:01:06.116 --> 0:01:09.756 you what it means to get out of Dodge. We'll 0:01:09.796 --> 0:01:13.156 consider a what if involving the assassination of Robert Kennedy. 0:01:13.396 --> 0:01:16.076 I'll shoot assault rifles in a range in the woods 0:01:16.076 --> 0:01:19.316 of North Carolina and sit in the basement of the 0:01:19.396 --> 0:01:23.236 University of Chicago Hospital as an er doc pours out 0:01:23.236 --> 0:01:25.556 his heart to me. Now, as you may already know 0:01:25.836 --> 0:01:29.276 you can hear this entire series starting right now by 0:01:29.276 --> 0:01:33.036 becoming a pushkin Plus subscriber. You can subscribe on Apple 0:01:33.076 --> 0:01:38.236 Podcasts or on our website Pushkin fm, slash Plus, or 0:01:38.636 --> 0:01:42.316 hear the episodes weekly right here in the Revisionist History Feed. 0:01:42.676 --> 0:01:44.516 We'd also love to hear from you as you listen. 0:01:44.676 --> 0:01:49.676 You can write into our contact form at revisionististory dot com. 0:01:50.156 --> 0:02:03.076 All right, here we go. It's sixteen eighty six in Bristol, 0:02:03.556 --> 0:02:07.196 a major port and manufacturing center on the southwest coast 0:02:07.196 --> 0:02:11.476 of England. A local merchant named John Knight, Sir John 0:02:11.516 --> 0:02:15.076 Knight is riding up a steep road outside the city 0:02:15.356 --> 0:02:20.236 to an Anglican church, Saint Michael's on the hill greystone 0:02:20.796 --> 0:02:25.436 slate roof sturdy walls built during medieval times to withstand 0:02:25.476 --> 0:02:29.276 the full brunt of hostile force. The city of Bristol 0:02:29.716 --> 0:02:35.676 spread out below. Sir John Knight bursts in and then, 0:02:36.836 --> 0:02:55.796 oh my god, John Lone. My name is Malcolm Gladwell. 0:02:55.956 --> 0:03:00.116 You're listening to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked 0:03:00.396 --> 0:03:05.356 and misunderstood. In this episode, I invite you to descend 0:03:05.396 --> 0:03:09.756 with me into the deep and bottomless historical pit. That 0:03:09.956 --> 0:03:15.676 is Sir John Knight, the irrepressible Englishman who has achieved 0:03:15.996 --> 0:03:20.076 more than three centuries after his death, a sudden and 0:03:20.396 --> 0:03:42.636 extraordinary celebrity. How was it that the John Knight case 0:03:43.276 --> 0:03:46.196 came to such a promise? Who uncovered it? It doesn't 0:03:46.236 --> 0:03:48.196 sound like this wasn't a case that was in There 0:03:48.196 --> 0:03:49.996 wasn't a famous case name at the time. 0:03:50.516 --> 0:03:50.796 I don't. 0:03:50.876 --> 0:03:51.436 I hate to say. 0:03:51.436 --> 0:03:54.276 It's like, you know, if you talk about history, like 0:03:54.316 --> 0:03:55.716 you know, you can go to Africa and find a 0:03:55.796 --> 0:03:57.956 rock with somebody's name on it. This is, you know, 0:03:58.036 --> 0:04:02.476 founded by white guy in nineteen eighteen. No, it was existent, right, 0:04:02.516 --> 0:04:04.116 it was there, It's always been there. 0:04:04.996 --> 0:04:09.676 So I wanted to explain how that happened and why 0:04:09.716 --> 0:04:12.956 he matters. And I know that this is something you've 0:04:12.956 --> 0:04:17.436 thought about, so I naturally wanted to call you. First 0:04:17.476 --> 0:04:23.396 question sulled for me. Who is the first modern legal 0:04:23.436 --> 0:04:27.476 scholar to reference Sir John Knight? 0:04:27.996 --> 0:04:31.596 Depends on what you mean by William Hawkins into seventy 0:04:31.716 --> 0:04:34.196 six in his seventeen sixteen treatise. 0:04:34.716 --> 0:04:38.276 I mean last fifty years his most recent celebrity. 0:04:39.876 --> 0:04:42.916 Who well, I mean he was around in case law, 0:04:43.236 --> 0:04:44.916 you know, not as common as he's been in the 0:04:44.916 --> 0:04:47.916 twenty first century. But he was. He was always around 0:04:49.276 --> 0:04:51.716 in case law to some degree. You know, shows up 0:04:51.716 --> 0:04:54.636 in a major eighteen forty three case in North Carolina 0:04:55.076 --> 0:04:59.596 and then another nineteen sixty eight North Carolina case, among others. 0:05:00.276 --> 0:05:03.476 So yeah, I think, I you know, I was. I 0:05:03.516 --> 0:05:07.996 got really interested in the way the Second Amendment debate 0:05:08.076 --> 0:05:13.316 has been transformed, and instead of focus on history and 0:05:13.516 --> 0:05:15.276 got the reason I got into is that I got 0:05:15.316 --> 0:05:17.116 really fascinated by the Sir John Knight case. 0:05:17.836 --> 0:05:19.756 Now oh, yes, right. 0:05:20.236 --> 0:05:22.676 And everyone says, oh, the person you have to talk 0:05:22.716 --> 0:05:26.516 to is Joyce Malcolm. So here I am, and here 0:05:26.516 --> 0:05:27.196 you are. 0:05:27.556 --> 0:05:28.116 Here I am. 0:05:29.156 --> 0:05:31.716 When you were doing your book, your original work on this, 0:05:32.196 --> 0:05:34.676 how did you come across the Sir John Knight case. 0:05:35.196 --> 0:05:37.756 Ah, well, it's a long time gone out. 0:05:38.756 --> 0:05:41.636 John Knight's name is spoken first only in the smallest 0:05:41.676 --> 0:05:46.476 of historical circles. Then it gets repeated again and again 0:05:46.876 --> 0:05:50.036 with increasing frequency in bigger and bigger rooms. 0:05:50.556 --> 0:05:52.876 I was at a conference in d C where they 0:05:52.876 --> 0:05:56.236 were discussing Second Amendment issues, and they had people giving 0:05:56.276 --> 0:05:58.956 papers from all perspectives, and I was just there to 0:05:59.076 --> 0:06:02.116 offer some historical input and I found myself having to 0:06:02.116 --> 0:06:05.516 clarify some of the basic details and mis assertions have 0:06:05.556 --> 0:06:08.676 been made about what had actually happened. So I said, 0:06:08.676 --> 0:06:10.276 I happened to know about this because I've read a 0:06:10.276 --> 0:06:11.196 lot of the sources. 0:06:11.476 --> 0:06:14.436 Do we know what Sir John looked like, his family life, 0:06:14.756 --> 0:06:18.596 his personal circumstances, Not really, but we do know something 0:06:18.596 --> 0:06:23.756 of his character, principled to a fault, contentious, possess of 0:06:23.796 --> 0:06:25.956 a steadfastness of mind. 0:06:26.196 --> 0:06:32.716 Indeed, so he was a Bristol merchant, he was from 0:06:32.836 --> 0:06:36.996 quite an important Bristol mercantile family, and perhaps because his 0:06:37.116 --> 0:06:42.356 father had been a sugar maker, Sir John Knight appears 0:06:42.396 --> 0:06:44.436 to have gone out to the West Indies and spent 0:06:44.476 --> 0:06:48.796 a period of time there, apparently rather controversially, because when 0:06:48.796 --> 0:06:52.516 he then applied a couple of years before we're deinning 0:06:52.556 --> 0:06:55.916 with to be the governor of the Leeward Islands, he 0:06:55.996 --> 0:06:59.436 appears to have been vetoed by the people there saying 0:06:59.436 --> 0:07:01.396 that from their experience of him, he was the last 0:07:01.436 --> 0:07:03.956 person that they wanted to come out as the governor, 0:07:05.036 --> 0:07:09.076 and it may have been partly his resentment at that throwback, 0:07:09.236 --> 0:07:12.196 people have suggested may have been one reason why he 0:07:12.316 --> 0:07:15.636 turned against the government of James the Second, which up 0:07:15.676 --> 0:07:20.276 until that point he had been very strongly supporting. So 0:07:20.916 --> 0:07:22.916 he appears to have been a man of a short 0:07:22.956 --> 0:07:27.996 tempera much disliked by many other people, highly manipulative. 0:07:32.796 --> 0:07:35.796 But do we need to make friends of our heroes, No, 0:07:35.916 --> 0:07:38.876 we don't. What we demand of our heroes is that 0:07:38.876 --> 0:07:43.036 they serve some larger cause, that they stand for something 0:07:43.356 --> 0:07:46.516 that their name would be uttered with reverence on some 0:07:46.756 --> 0:07:47.916 grand stage. 0:07:48.436 --> 0:07:52.596 I know you've had a substantial debate with your friends 0:07:52.596 --> 0:07:55.036 on the other side about the Statute of Northampton. 0:07:55.676 --> 0:07:59.476 Do you know who that is? Neil Gorsuch, Supreme Court Justice, 0:07:59.996 --> 0:08:03.956 during oral arguments in November of twenty twenty one, posing 0:08:03.996 --> 0:08:07.556 a question to the legendary appellate lawyer Paul Clement. 0:08:08.316 --> 0:08:10.196 We haven't heard about that today, and I just wanted 0:08:10.196 --> 0:08:10.956 to give you a chance. 0:08:12.596 --> 0:08:14.836 Thank you, Justice Gorsich. I'd say just a couple of 0:08:14.876 --> 0:08:16.916 quick things about the Statute of Northampton. 0:08:17.196 --> 0:08:19.116 Wait for it. Wait for it. 0:08:19.836 --> 0:08:22.556 First of all, I think that it was very clear 0:08:22.756 --> 0:08:25.956 from the Knight's case and the treatises that this Court 0:08:26.036 --> 0:08:28.996 relied on in Heller that by the time of the 0:08:28.996 --> 0:08:30.916 framing of the Knight's Case. 0:08:41.196 --> 0:08:43.956 When the final accounting is done of the twenty first century, 0:08:44.276 --> 0:08:47.956 a handful of Supreme Court cases will stand out as landmarks. 0:08:48.516 --> 0:08:52.196 The Citizens United Case from twenty ten, for example, which 0:08:52.196 --> 0:08:56.196 freed corporations to spend enormous amounts of money on political candidates, 0:08:56.756 --> 0:09:01.396 the decision to overturn abortion rights, and very high on 0:09:01.476 --> 0:09:05.356 that list, a pivotal gun rights case that came before 0:09:05.356 --> 0:09:09.276 the Court in late twenty twenty one. 0:09:10.916 --> 0:09:13.996 We will hear argument this morning in case twenty eight 0:09:14.156 --> 0:09:19.276 forty three New York State Rifle and Pistol Association versus Bruin. 0:09:20.236 --> 0:09:24.076 New York Rifle and Pistol otherwise known as the Bruin Case. 0:09:24.716 --> 0:09:27.996 Broome was about the Second Amendment to the Constitution, a 0:09:28.036 --> 0:09:32.396 well regulated militia comma being necessary to the security of 0:09:32.436 --> 0:09:35.276 a free state Comma the right of the people to 0:09:35.356 --> 0:09:40.476 keep and bear arms comma shall not be infringed. What 0:09:40.516 --> 0:09:44.156 does that sentence mean? For years and years scholars have 0:09:44.276 --> 0:09:46.556 argued about that. We even weighed in on it here 0:09:46.556 --> 0:09:50.516 at Revisionist History. If you remember in season three's Divide 0:09:50.556 --> 0:09:54.476 and Conquer episode with an investigation of the significance of 0:09:54.516 --> 0:09:58.116 the commas that surround the phrase being necessary to the 0:09:58.116 --> 0:10:03.036 security of a free state. But then along comes the 0:10:03.076 --> 0:10:07.076 Bruin Case. For one hundred years, a law has been 0:10:07.116 --> 0:10:09.316 on the books in New York State that says you 0:10:09.356 --> 0:10:12.196 can only get a handgun if you prove you need 0:10:12.236 --> 0:10:16.036 one for some specific purpose. And the gun lovers of 0:10:16.076 --> 0:10:20.956 New York are unhappy about this. They sue. The Supreme 0:10:20.996 --> 0:10:23.956 Court agrees to take the case, and in November of 0:10:23.956 --> 0:10:27.356 twenty twenty one, lawyers for both sides gather for what 0:10:27.436 --> 0:10:31.156 is the first stage in all Supreme Court cases, oral arguments. 0:10:31.836 --> 0:10:35.356 They're in the Court's Central Chamber on First Street, across 0:10:35.356 --> 0:10:39.276 from the Capital, an imposing room in the grand Neoclassical 0:10:39.316 --> 0:10:43.956 Revival style, forty four foot ceilings twenty four ionic columns 0:10:43.956 --> 0:10:48.196 in marble shipped from Liguria, Italy. The justices are sitting 0:10:48.236 --> 0:10:51.476 all in a row behind a long curved Mahogany table, 0:10:51.796 --> 0:10:53.636 there to hear the lawyers on both sides of the 0:10:53.636 --> 0:10:58.716 Bruin case present their oral arguments. The room's packed, A 0:10:58.756 --> 0:11:00.876 sense of anticipation is in the. 0:11:00.836 --> 0:11:04.836 Air, mister Chief Justice, and may it please the Court 0:11:05.436 --> 0:11:08.676 the text of the second Amendment in Shrine's aright, not 0:11:08.756 --> 0:11:11.596 just to keep arms, but to bear them, and the 0:11:11.676 --> 0:11:15.636 relevant history and tradition exhaustively surveyed by this Court in 0:11:15.676 --> 0:11:20.076 the Heller decision confirm that the text protects an individual 0:11:20.196 --> 0:11:24.396 right to carry firearms outside the home for purposes of 0:11:24.476 --> 0:11:25.316 self defense. 0:11:26.236 --> 0:11:29.156 Paul Clement, lawyer for the gun rights group. 0:11:29.076 --> 0:11:31.396 I'm happy to continue by point I missed a Clement, 0:11:31.796 --> 0:11:33.476 I'm sorry to interrupt you. 0:11:33.956 --> 0:11:37.716 That's Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. Thomas would go on 0:11:37.756 --> 0:11:40.836 to write the Court's majority opinion in the case. This 0:11:41.436 --> 0:11:44.316 is the moment where he tips his hand shows us 0:11:44.716 --> 0:11:45.476 where he's leaning. 0:11:46.036 --> 0:11:54.436 If we analyze this and use history, tradition texts of 0:11:54.556 --> 0:11:56.356 the Second Amendment, we're going to have to do it 0:11:56.396 --> 0:12:03.476 by analogy. So can you give me a regulation in 0:12:03.716 --> 0:12:08.156 history that is a base that would form a basis 0:12:08.196 --> 0:12:11.076 for legitimate regulation today. If we're going to do it 0:12:11.076 --> 0:12:14.116 by analogy, what would we analogize it to? What would 0:12:14.116 --> 0:12:14.716 that look like? 0:12:15.996 --> 0:12:19.036 If you were a law student armed with a yellow highlighter, 0:12:19.356 --> 0:12:24.196 you would underline the words history and tradition. Why Because 0:12:24.236 --> 0:12:27.556 Thomas is telling us something crucial here. He doesn't care 0:12:27.596 --> 0:12:30.236 about the commas in the Second Amendment. He doesn't care 0:12:30.276 --> 0:12:32.996 about the arcane theories of the legal scholars. He doesn't 0:12:33.036 --> 0:12:35.236 even care about what the citizens of New York State 0:12:35.476 --> 0:12:38.556 may or may not think about restricting handguns. He cares 0:12:38.596 --> 0:12:42.796 about what the Founders thought when they wrote the Second Amendment. 0:12:43.436 --> 0:12:45.116 And when he says you're going to have to do 0:12:45.156 --> 0:12:48.116 it by analogy, what he means is the only way 0:12:48.196 --> 0:12:52.676 to decide whether a restriction on guns is valid, is 0:12:52.796 --> 0:12:56.316 consistent with the Second Amendment? Is did the Founders way 0:12:56.316 --> 0:13:00.356 back when ever, consider a restriction that looks like this 0:13:00.476 --> 0:13:03.076 New York law, would they have been okay with it? 0:13:03.716 --> 0:13:08.196 And Clement agrees, So can you give me a regulation 0:13:10.516 --> 0:13:14.716 in history that is a base that would form a 0:13:14.756 --> 0:13:17.916 basis for a legitimate regulation today. 0:13:17.996 --> 0:13:22.556 Yes, that's what this case is about. We're arguing history here. 0:13:23.116 --> 0:13:25.316 Mister Chief Justice, and may it please the court. 0:13:26.156 --> 0:13:29.236 Then the attorney for the other side stands up, Barbara Underwood, 0:13:29.556 --> 0:13:31.756 Solicitor General of the State of New York. 0:13:32.316 --> 0:13:35.676 For centuries, English and American law have imposed limits on 0:13:35.796 --> 0:13:39.196 carrying firearms in public and the interests of public safety. 0:13:39.716 --> 0:13:43.676 The history runs from the fourteenth century Statute of Northampton, 0:13:43.756 --> 0:13:47.756 which prohibited carrying arms in fairs and markets, and other 0:13:47.836 --> 0:13:52.516 public gathering places to similar laws adopted by half of 0:13:52.556 --> 0:13:55.836 the American colonies and states in the Founding period. 0:13:56.116 --> 0:13:59.876 The Statute of Northampton. That's the third time we've heard 0:13:59.916 --> 0:14:02.756 it mentioned in a case heard in the twenty first 0:14:02.756 --> 0:14:06.196 century about a law passed in the twentieth century. The 0:14:06.276 --> 0:14:08.916 court has asked for insight into how the Founders felt 0:14:08.956 --> 0:14:12.556 in the eighteenth century, and the lawyers said, well, then 0:14:12.916 --> 0:14:16.956 we need to look to the fourteenth century. Thirteen twenty 0:14:17.076 --> 0:14:21.116 eight to be precise, your honor, during the reign of 0:14:21.236 --> 0:14:25.116 Edward the Second, the English Parliament passed the Statute of Northampton, 0:14:25.636 --> 0:14:29.356 which says that no man shall disturb the peace by 0:14:29.476 --> 0:14:34.996 riding armed night or day, without quote forfeiting their bodies 0:14:35.036 --> 0:14:39.476 to prison at the King's pleasure. The Statute of Northampton 0:14:39.836 --> 0:14:42.916 is part of English common law. English common law is 0:14:42.916 --> 0:14:46.596 what the first English settlers brought with them on the Mayflower. 0:14:47.116 --> 0:14:50.116 English common law is what the Founding fathers learned in school. 0:14:51.036 --> 0:14:53.676 You want an analogy from history, you want to play 0:14:53.796 --> 0:14:57.556 early history, I give you a crucial law from thirteen 0:14:57.636 --> 0:15:02.316 twenty eight, which absolutely the Founders knew about, that restricts 0:15:02.396 --> 0:15:06.636 guns way more than anything. We're talking about in this court, 0:15:07.236 --> 0:15:13.116 your honor cases are chess. This is check. The only 0:15:13.156 --> 0:15:15.396 way the gun rights crowd can win is if they 0:15:15.436 --> 0:15:18.996 can find their own bit of ancient history that trump's 0:15:19.316 --> 0:15:32.996 the Statute of Northampton, and incredibly they do. John Lowe, Yeah, yeah, 0:15:33.276 --> 0:15:35.836 going back to when you were doing your book, your 0:15:35.996 --> 0:15:38.676 original work on this, how did you come across the 0:15:38.956 --> 0:15:39.876 Sir John Knight case. 0:15:40.436 --> 0:15:44.556 Ah, well, it's a long time ago now, but I 0:15:44.596 --> 0:15:47.756 looked through all of the cases and there are these 0:15:47.796 --> 0:15:50.876 little handbooks on what the law was at different times 0:15:50.916 --> 0:15:54.156 that were published is to help justices of the peace 0:15:54.236 --> 0:15:57.356 and judges. I looked through the laws. I did a 0:15:57.396 --> 0:16:05.116 lot of manuscript reading and really investigating what Parliament was doing, 0:16:05.236 --> 0:16:06.636 what was happening at that time. 0:16:07.036 --> 0:16:11.196 Joyce Malcolm the Patrick Henry Professor of Constitutional Law and 0:16:11.236 --> 0:16:14.756 the Second Amendment at the ntonin Scalia Law School at 0:16:14.796 --> 0:16:19.316 George Mason University in Virginia. In a world where history 0:16:19.356 --> 0:16:24.196 matters more than law or public sentiment, historians become heroes. 0:16:25.156 --> 0:16:28.916 The magazine National Review once described Joyce Malcolm as the 0:16:29.076 --> 0:16:33.036 nice girl who saved the Second Amendment. She quote looks 0:16:33.076 --> 0:16:37.476 nothing like a hardened veteran of the gun control wars. Small, 0:16:38.076 --> 0:16:41.636 slender and bookish. She's a wisp of a woman who 0:16:41.796 --> 0:16:45.876 enjoys plunging into the archives and sitting through panel discussions 0:16:46.316 --> 0:16:51.156 at academic conferences. Malcolm felt the argument over gun rights 0:16:51.396 --> 0:16:54.956 had been set adrift from history. If we didn't know 0:16:54.996 --> 0:16:57.596 what the founders thought, how would we know what we 0:16:57.716 --> 0:17:00.876 should think. In her most famous book, To Keep and 0:17:00.916 --> 0:17:03.556 Bear Arms, The Origin of an American Right, she set 0:17:03.556 --> 0:17:06.716 out to answer that question, and while pouring through case 0:17:06.716 --> 0:17:10.396 books from the eighteenth and nineteenth century, she found it 0:17:10.996 --> 0:17:14.956 the key that unlocked the whole mystery. No more than 0:17:14.996 --> 0:17:17.676 a handful of paragraphs and a short summary, but the 0:17:17.716 --> 0:17:24.956 story it told was riveting. It's sixteen eighty six. England 0:17:25.076 --> 0:17:29.476 is overwhelmingly Protestant, legally and officially dominated by the Church 0:17:29.516 --> 0:17:33.236 of England, but for a brief period in the sixteen eighties, 0:17:33.676 --> 0:17:37.316 the king was James the Second, who was Catholic, and 0:17:37.436 --> 0:17:41.116 Church of England loyalists were outraged by the possibility that 0:17:41.156 --> 0:17:44.476 the king might try and empower his fellow Catholics, and 0:17:44.596 --> 0:17:48.436 one of those outraged Church of England loyalists was a 0:17:48.516 --> 0:17:52.556 merchant from the coastal town of Bristol, a man named 0:17:53.636 --> 0:18:03.756 Sir John Knight. One day, Knight rides up a steep 0:18:03.836 --> 0:18:06.916 road outside Bristol to the Anglican Church of Saint Michael 0:18:06.956 --> 0:18:12.036 on the Hill Sin the story goes waving his guns, 0:18:12.516 --> 0:18:16.756 gives an impassioned speech. James the Second hears of it 0:18:17.236 --> 0:18:22.076 and has Knight arrested charges him under the Statute of Northampton. 0:18:25.316 --> 0:18:28.156 The information sets forth that the defendant did walk about 0:18:28.196 --> 0:18:30.396 the straits armed with guns, and that he went into 0:18:30.476 --> 0:18:32.676 the Church of Saint Michael in Bristol in the time 0:18:32.716 --> 0:18:36.396 of divine service with a gun to terrify the King's subjects. 0:18:36.996 --> 0:18:42.916 And what happens. The jury decides not guilty. Joyce Malcolm 0:18:42.956 --> 0:18:46.476 reads this and it takes her breath away. Everyone thinks 0:18:46.516 --> 0:18:49.756 that English common law, on which the American legal tradition 0:18:49.916 --> 0:18:53.436 is based was hostile to people walking around with guns. 0:18:53.956 --> 0:18:57.836 But that is not true. John Knight was acquitted. John 0:18:57.876 --> 0:19:01.036 Knight goes up against the Statute of Northampton and John 0:19:01.116 --> 0:19:06.396 Knight wins. One side says the Statute of Northampton. Check 0:19:07.156 --> 0:19:10.716 The other side counters Night checkmate. 0:19:12.916 --> 0:19:16.196 So there's been this big debate about what the Statute 0:19:16.276 --> 0:19:19.676 of Northampton meant. But I can say that if it 0:19:19.836 --> 0:19:23.756 was archaic by the seventeenth century, it was certainly archaic 0:19:24.116 --> 0:19:27.636 by the eighteenth century, when we've got the Second Amendment, 0:19:27.676 --> 0:19:29.796 and for sure the twenty first century. 0:19:30.316 --> 0:19:34.556 The nice girl who saved the Second Amendment. And if 0:19:34.556 --> 0:19:36.916 you read through the briefs file before the Supreme Court 0:19:36.956 --> 0:19:41.556 in Bruin, what do you find John Knight. Everywhere we 0:19:41.636 --> 0:19:44.356 hear about the famous case of Sir John Knight, we 0:19:44.436 --> 0:19:47.316 get history lessons on John Knight. We learned that the 0:19:47.396 --> 0:19:50.716 legal entanglement he found himself in after he burst into 0:19:50.756 --> 0:19:53.516 the church at Saint Michael's on the Hill is the 0:19:53.556 --> 0:19:58.396 most quote significant precedent quote in understanding a crucial turn 0:19:58.796 --> 0:20:03.156 in Second Amendment law. During oral arguments, Neil Gore sutch 0:20:03.476 --> 0:20:07.236 lobes as softball Paul Clement about the Statute of Northampton. 0:20:07.916 --> 0:20:12.076 I know you've had a substantial debate with your friends 0:20:12.076 --> 0:20:15.596 on the other side about the Statute of Northampton, and. 0:20:15.516 --> 0:20:19.796 Paul Clement knocks the question out of the park John 0:20:19.876 --> 0:20:29.796 Knight Baby. Then six months later comes the final ruling 0:20:29.996 --> 0:20:34.956 in Bruin. Just as Clarence Thomas promised, It's all about history. 0:20:35.436 --> 0:20:38.676 Eight pages on the perier between twelve eighty five and 0:20:38.796 --> 0:20:43.516 seventeen seventy six, five pages on colonial America, nine pages 0:20:43.556 --> 0:20:46.956 on seventeen ninety one to the Civil War, six pages 0:20:47.036 --> 0:20:50.476 on the Path to reconstruction. One of the most important 0:20:50.556 --> 0:20:54.276 cases of our generation, a landmark that once and for 0:20:54.356 --> 0:20:58.476 all clarifies the most controversial of all the amendments to 0:20:58.516 --> 0:21:01.956 the US Constitution. The debate is over now we know 0:21:02.676 --> 0:21:05.796 with the founders under the sway of the Statute of Northampton. No, 0:21:06.036 --> 0:21:10.476 they were not, the court rules history teaches us. Otherwise, 0:21:10.796 --> 0:21:12.916 the founders would have frowned on the way in New 0:21:12.996 --> 0:21:15.756 York State tried to regulate handguns. And we know this 0:21:15.876 --> 0:21:20.476 because of one man's heroic acquittal. If you read the 0:21:20.476 --> 0:21:25.596 brew and ruling, John Knight looms over it like a colossus. 0:21:26.036 --> 0:21:29.436 John Knight, John Knight, John Knight. He pops up again 0:21:29.476 --> 0:21:32.836 and again like a late seventeenth century whack them all. 0:21:34.276 --> 0:21:37.516 I've been really drawn effect this morning. I was reading 0:21:37.556 --> 0:21:41.396 over again this stuff about the Rex v. Knight, the 0:21:41.476 --> 0:21:44.836 John Knight case. I call up a second amendment scholar 0:21:44.916 --> 0:21:48.916 named Patrick Charles. Before long talk swung to John Knight. 0:21:49.076 --> 0:21:52.076 Of course it did. There's no quitting John Knight. Once 0:21:52.116 --> 0:21:55.636 you catch John Knight Fever, But you know that it's 0:21:55.676 --> 0:21:59.636 a totally fascinating history taken in itself, but in context. 0:22:00.156 --> 0:22:03.356 The idea that you know, in the middle of a 0:22:04.196 --> 0:22:10.876 contemporary debate about how to handle the possess of dangerous 0:22:10.876 --> 0:22:14.996 weapons in America, that we're spending our time obsessing about 0:22:15.036 --> 0:22:19.116 a case from the seventeenth century in Bristol and England 0:22:19.156 --> 0:22:19.876 is hilarious. 0:22:20.956 --> 0:22:23.156 Yes, on the one level, you're you're absolutely critic. 0:22:23.436 --> 0:22:25.996 Patrick Charles and I agreed that it was hilarious to 0:22:26.036 --> 0:22:28.316 spend so much time on John Knight. And then what 0:22:28.396 --> 0:22:32.436 do we do? We continue talking about John Knight. John 0:22:32.476 --> 0:22:36.116 Knight is the groundhog who emerges from his musty English 0:22:36.196 --> 0:22:39.796 lair every spring to cast a shadow across twenty first 0:22:39.836 --> 0:22:44.476 century jurisprudence, the beaver who stealthily builds a legal edifice 0:22:44.876 --> 0:22:49.916 out of mud and sticks. The constitutional scholar and a 0:22:49.956 --> 0:22:52.876 founding member of the John Knight fan Club. David Copple 0:22:53.276 --> 0:22:56.196 once combed through the library of an eighteenth century law 0:22:56.236 --> 0:22:59.276 professor named George Wythe who taught law to a Supreme 0:22:59.276 --> 0:23:03.356 Court justice, a couple of presidents, some founding fathers, and 0:23:03.436 --> 0:23:06.516 he found that John Knight's name was all over law 0:23:06.556 --> 0:23:09.716 books back then. Surely this is all all the founders 0:23:09.716 --> 0:23:12.436 were talking about over a good pipe and a bottle 0:23:12.436 --> 0:23:17.876 of claret in the drawing rooms of colonial Philadelphia. You 0:23:17.916 --> 0:23:19.756 were in Bristol not long ago. 0:23:20.796 --> 0:23:23.796 I was my wife and I were on vacation, and 0:23:23.916 --> 0:23:26.196 as we were on our way from Cornwall to Wales, 0:23:27.436 --> 0:23:32.676 I we did stop at Saint Michael Church in Bristol 0:23:32.796 --> 0:23:36.116 where all this stuff happened, because I wanted to see it, 0:23:36.196 --> 0:23:38.916 maybe see if Sir John Knight was buried in that graveyard. 0:23:39.716 --> 0:23:43.436 David Copple, on vacation, says to his wife, we cannot 0:23:43.516 --> 0:23:47.236 quit this storied isle without paying homage to the man 0:23:47.476 --> 0:23:52.916 whose brave example saved America from the tyranny of restrictive 0:23:52.956 --> 0:23:53.756 gun laws. 0:23:54.516 --> 0:23:57.636 And it was interesting. It's not a huge cathedral type church. 0:23:57.756 --> 0:24:00.716 It's a medium sized church, but it's up on the hill. 0:24:01.596 --> 0:24:04.356 As I learned the hard way, because I was driving 0:24:04.556 --> 0:24:07.636 a stick shift and getting up that very steep hill 0:24:07.756 --> 0:24:09.116 was quite a challenge. 0:24:09.596 --> 0:24:09.916 Yeah. 0:24:09.996 --> 0:24:12.716 Yeah, but you're in the area and you couldn't resist 0:24:12.756 --> 0:24:15.156 to stop by. And actually I kind of want to 0:24:15.156 --> 0:24:16.356 see Saint Michael's myself. 0:24:16.916 --> 0:24:18.556 Go ahead, tell me why you want to You want 0:24:18.556 --> 0:24:19.276 to see it too. 0:24:19.356 --> 0:24:21.676 Of course I do. I mean, who wouldn't want to 0:24:21.756 --> 0:24:23.996 learn of this giant in the place of his birth 0:24:24.116 --> 0:24:28.396 and death. But then, just as I was packing my 0:24:28.516 --> 0:24:31.396 bags for Bristol, I thought, wait, let me check in 0:24:31.476 --> 0:24:36.516 with a more disinterested historian of that period. I called around. 0:24:36.956 --> 0:24:40.796 Someone recommended a man named Jonathan Barry of the University 0:24:40.836 --> 0:24:44.316 of Exeter. When you, as a historian of this period, 0:24:44.916 --> 0:24:48.516 see the way that John Knight has suddenly popped up 0:24:48.596 --> 0:24:53.676 in American gun rights discourse, what's your reaction? 0:24:54.156 --> 0:24:56.956 Well, I find it bizarre because nobody that's ever heard 0:24:56.996 --> 0:24:59.876 of him or the case, and it has no implication, 0:25:00.116 --> 0:25:02.036 you know, as far as I know. In the English 0:25:02.556 --> 0:25:04.516 jurist Britain's not the land of Drews. But you know 0:25:04.876 --> 0:25:07.916 it's it's of no significance. 0:25:07.876 --> 0:25:12.196 Huh, England, John Knight is a nobody, But in the 0:25:12.236 --> 0:25:15.156 hallowed halls of the Supreme Court three and a half 0:25:15.196 --> 0:25:21.476 thousand miles away, he's a superstar. It's a puzzle, and 0:25:21.556 --> 0:25:35.636 it is for puzzles like these that God invented revisionous history. 0:25:43.516 --> 0:25:46.516 One of the problems associated with the coronation of John 0:25:46.596 --> 0:25:49.916 Knight as the savior of the gun rights movement is 0:25:49.916 --> 0:25:52.316 that our understanding of the details of his arrest and 0:25:52.356 --> 0:25:57.556 acquittal was limited. We had the verdict, but not much else. 0:25:58.196 --> 0:26:01.516 After all, it happened in sixteen eighty six. It's not 0:26:01.716 --> 0:26:05.076 like there are digital records somewhere in the Bristol courthouse. 0:26:05.756 --> 0:26:08.716 What was known about the case came from legal catalogs 0:26:08.716 --> 0:26:11.436 from the eighteenth and nineteenth century, the kind that a 0:26:11.516 --> 0:26:15.876 lawyer or a judge might subscribe to that offer brief summaries, 0:26:16.036 --> 0:26:19.156 news briefings of the goings on in various court houses 0:26:19.156 --> 0:26:23.396 around England. That's what Joyce Malcolm found in her Eureka moment, 0:26:23.996 --> 0:26:26.876 a brief write up from a long ago legal newsletter 0:26:27.116 --> 0:26:28.556