1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:21,396 Speaker 1: Bushkin. Over the next stretch of revisionist history, we have 2 00:00:21,436 --> 00:00:25,516 Speaker 1: a special treat for you, six episodes, all devoted to 3 00:00:25,596 --> 00:00:29,316 Speaker 1: one theme, an examination of the many, weird and strange 4 00:00:29,356 --> 00:00:33,916 Speaker 1: corners of the American obsession with guns. It's about what 5 00:00:33,996 --> 00:00:37,076 Speaker 1: we don't know, what we get wrong, how we screwed up, 6 00:00:37,236 --> 00:00:40,916 Speaker 1: and how utterly bizarre things get in a country where 7 00:00:40,916 --> 00:00:43,756 Speaker 1: guns stand at the center of our culture. Our journey 8 00:00:43,796 --> 00:00:47,636 Speaker 1: begins in seventeenth century England with a mysterious merchant named 9 00:00:47,676 --> 00:00:52,076 Speaker 1: John Knight, who inexplicably has become a twenty first century 10 00:00:52,156 --> 00:00:55,276 Speaker 1: legal celebrity. Then on to the New York City subways, 11 00:00:55,716 --> 00:00:58,436 Speaker 1: the hallowed halls of the Supreme Court, a little town 12 00:00:58,476 --> 00:01:01,716 Speaker 1: in rural Alabama, the south side of Chicago, and the 13 00:01:01,756 --> 00:01:06,076 Speaker 1: wild wob West Dodge City. To be exact, I'll show 14 00:01:06,116 --> 00:01:09,756 Speaker 1: you what it means to get out of Dodge. We'll 15 00:01:09,796 --> 00:01:13,156 Speaker 1: consider a what if involving the assassination of Robert Kennedy. 16 00:01:13,396 --> 00:01:16,076 Speaker 1: I'll shoot assault rifles in a range in the woods 17 00:01:16,076 --> 00:01:19,316 Speaker 1: of North Carolina and sit in the basement of the 18 00:01:19,396 --> 00:01:23,236 Speaker 1: University of Chicago Hospital as an er doc pours out 19 00:01:23,236 --> 00:01:25,556 Speaker 1: his heart to me. Now, as you may already know 20 00:01:25,836 --> 00:01:29,276 Speaker 1: you can hear this entire series starting right now by 21 00:01:29,276 --> 00:01:33,036 Speaker 1: becoming a pushkin Plus subscriber. You can subscribe on Apple 22 00:01:33,076 --> 00:01:38,236 Speaker 1: Podcasts or on our website Pushkin fm, slash Plus, or 23 00:01:38,636 --> 00:01:42,316 Speaker 1: hear the episodes weekly right here in the Revisionist History Feed. 24 00:01:42,676 --> 00:01:44,516 Speaker 1: We'd also love to hear from you as you listen. 25 00:01:44,676 --> 00:01:49,676 Speaker 1: You can write into our contact form at revisionististory dot com. 26 00:01:50,156 --> 00:02:03,076 Speaker 1: All right, here we go. It's sixteen eighty six in Bristol, 27 00:02:03,556 --> 00:02:07,196 Speaker 1: a major port and manufacturing center on the southwest coast 28 00:02:07,196 --> 00:02:11,476 Speaker 1: of England. A local merchant named John Knight, Sir John 29 00:02:11,516 --> 00:02:15,076 Speaker 1: Knight is riding up a steep road outside the city 30 00:02:15,356 --> 00:02:20,236 Speaker 1: to an Anglican church, Saint Michael's on the hill greystone 31 00:02:20,796 --> 00:02:25,436 Speaker 1: slate roof sturdy walls built during medieval times to withstand 32 00:02:25,476 --> 00:02:29,276 Speaker 1: the full brunt of hostile force. The city of Bristol 33 00:02:29,716 --> 00:02:35,676 Speaker 1: spread out below. Sir John Knight bursts in and then, 34 00:02:36,836 --> 00:02:55,796 Speaker 1: oh my god, John Lone. My name is Malcolm Gladwell. 35 00:02:55,956 --> 00:03:00,116 Speaker 1: You're listening to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked 36 00:03:00,396 --> 00:03:05,356 Speaker 1: and misunderstood. In this episode, I invite you to descend 37 00:03:05,396 --> 00:03:09,756 Speaker 1: with me into the deep and bottomless historical pit. That 38 00:03:09,956 --> 00:03:15,676 Speaker 1: is Sir John Knight, the irrepressible Englishman who has achieved 39 00:03:15,996 --> 00:03:20,076 Speaker 1: more than three centuries after his death, a sudden and 40 00:03:20,396 --> 00:03:42,636 Speaker 1: extraordinary celebrity. How was it that the John Knight case 41 00:03:43,276 --> 00:03:46,196 Speaker 1: came to such a promise? Who uncovered it? It doesn't 42 00:03:46,236 --> 00:03:48,196 Speaker 1: sound like this wasn't a case that was in There 43 00:03:48,196 --> 00:03:49,996 Speaker 1: wasn't a famous case name at the time. 44 00:03:50,516 --> 00:03:50,796 Speaker 2: I don't. 45 00:03:50,876 --> 00:03:51,436 Speaker 3: I hate to say. 46 00:03:51,436 --> 00:03:54,276 Speaker 4: It's like, you know, if you talk about history, like 47 00:03:54,316 --> 00:03:55,716 Speaker 4: you know, you can go to Africa and find a 48 00:03:55,796 --> 00:03:57,956 Speaker 4: rock with somebody's name on it. This is, you know, 49 00:03:58,036 --> 00:04:02,476 Speaker 4: founded by white guy in nineteen eighteen. No, it was existent, right, 50 00:04:02,516 --> 00:04:04,116 Speaker 4: it was there, It's always been there. 51 00:04:04,996 --> 00:04:09,676 Speaker 1: So I wanted to explain how that happened and why 52 00:04:09,716 --> 00:04:12,956 Speaker 1: he matters. And I know that this is something you've 53 00:04:12,956 --> 00:04:17,436 Speaker 1: thought about, so I naturally wanted to call you. First 54 00:04:17,476 --> 00:04:23,396 Speaker 1: question sulled for me. Who is the first modern legal 55 00:04:23,436 --> 00:04:27,476 Speaker 1: scholar to reference Sir John Knight? 56 00:04:27,996 --> 00:04:31,596 Speaker 5: Depends on what you mean by William Hawkins into seventy 57 00:04:31,716 --> 00:04:34,196 Speaker 5: six in his seventeen sixteen treatise. 58 00:04:34,716 --> 00:04:38,276 Speaker 1: I mean last fifty years his most recent celebrity. 59 00:04:39,876 --> 00:04:42,916 Speaker 5: Who well, I mean he was around in case law, 60 00:04:43,236 --> 00:04:44,916 Speaker 5: you know, not as common as he's been in the 61 00:04:44,916 --> 00:04:47,916 Speaker 5: twenty first century. But he was. He was always around 62 00:04:49,276 --> 00:04:51,716 Speaker 5: in case law to some degree. You know, shows up 63 00:04:51,716 --> 00:04:54,636 Speaker 5: in a major eighteen forty three case in North Carolina 64 00:04:55,076 --> 00:04:59,596 Speaker 5: and then another nineteen sixty eight North Carolina case, among others. 65 00:05:00,276 --> 00:05:03,476 Speaker 1: So yeah, I think, I you know, I was. I 66 00:05:03,516 --> 00:05:07,996 Speaker 1: got really interested in the way the Second Amendment debate 67 00:05:08,076 --> 00:05:13,316 Speaker 1: has been transformed, and instead of focus on history and 68 00:05:13,516 --> 00:05:15,276 Speaker 1: got the reason I got into is that I got 69 00:05:15,316 --> 00:05:17,116 Speaker 1: really fascinated by the Sir John Knight case. 70 00:05:17,836 --> 00:05:19,756 Speaker 6: Now oh, yes, right. 71 00:05:20,236 --> 00:05:22,676 Speaker 1: And everyone says, oh, the person you have to talk 72 00:05:22,716 --> 00:05:26,516 Speaker 1: to is Joyce Malcolm. So here I am, and here 73 00:05:26,516 --> 00:05:27,196 Speaker 1: you are. 74 00:05:27,556 --> 00:05:28,116 Speaker 5: Here I am. 75 00:05:29,156 --> 00:05:31,716 Speaker 1: When you were doing your book, your original work on this, 76 00:05:32,196 --> 00:05:34,676 Speaker 1: how did you come across the Sir John Knight case. 77 00:05:35,196 --> 00:05:37,756 Speaker 7: Ah, well, it's a long time gone out. 78 00:05:38,756 --> 00:05:41,636 Speaker 1: John Knight's name is spoken first only in the smallest 79 00:05:41,676 --> 00:05:46,476 Speaker 1: of historical circles. Then it gets repeated again and again 80 00:05:46,876 --> 00:05:50,036 Speaker 1: with increasing frequency in bigger and bigger rooms. 81 00:05:50,556 --> 00:05:52,876 Speaker 8: I was at a conference in d C where they 82 00:05:52,876 --> 00:05:56,236 Speaker 8: were discussing Second Amendment issues, and they had people giving 83 00:05:56,276 --> 00:05:58,956 Speaker 8: papers from all perspectives, and I was just there to 84 00:05:59,076 --> 00:06:02,116 Speaker 8: offer some historical input and I found myself having to 85 00:06:02,116 --> 00:06:05,516 Speaker 8: clarify some of the basic details and mis assertions have 86 00:06:05,556 --> 00:06:08,676 Speaker 8: been made about what had actually happened. So I said, 87 00:06:08,676 --> 00:06:10,276 Speaker 8: I happened to know about this because I've read a 88 00:06:10,276 --> 00:06:11,196 Speaker 8: lot of the sources. 89 00:06:11,476 --> 00:06:14,436 Speaker 1: Do we know what Sir John looked like, his family life, 90 00:06:14,756 --> 00:06:18,596 Speaker 1: his personal circumstances, Not really, but we do know something 91 00:06:18,596 --> 00:06:23,756 Speaker 1: of his character, principled to a fault, contentious, possess of 92 00:06:23,796 --> 00:06:25,956 Speaker 1: a steadfastness of mind. 93 00:06:26,196 --> 00:06:32,716 Speaker 6: Indeed, so he was a Bristol merchant, he was from 94 00:06:32,836 --> 00:06:36,996 Speaker 6: quite an important Bristol mercantile family, and perhaps because his 95 00:06:37,116 --> 00:06:42,356 Speaker 6: father had been a sugar maker, Sir John Knight appears 96 00:06:42,396 --> 00:06:44,436 Speaker 6: to have gone out to the West Indies and spent 97 00:06:44,476 --> 00:06:48,796 Speaker 6: a period of time there, apparently rather controversially, because when 98 00:06:48,796 --> 00:06:52,516 Speaker 6: he then applied a couple of years before we're deinning 99 00:06:52,556 --> 00:06:55,916 Speaker 6: with to be the governor of the Leeward Islands, he 100 00:06:55,996 --> 00:06:59,436 Speaker 6: appears to have been vetoed by the people there saying 101 00:06:59,436 --> 00:07:01,396 Speaker 6: that from their experience of him, he was the last 102 00:07:01,436 --> 00:07:03,956 Speaker 6: person that they wanted to come out as the governor, 103 00:07:05,036 --> 00:07:09,076 Speaker 6: and it may have been partly his resentment at that throwback, 104 00:07:09,236 --> 00:07:12,196 Speaker 6: people have suggested may have been one reason why he 105 00:07:12,316 --> 00:07:15,636 Speaker 6: turned against the government of James the Second, which up 106 00:07:15,676 --> 00:07:20,276 Speaker 6: until that point he had been very strongly supporting. So 107 00:07:20,916 --> 00:07:22,916 Speaker 6: he appears to have been a man of a short 108 00:07:22,956 --> 00:07:27,996 Speaker 6: tempera much disliked by many other people, highly manipulative. 109 00:07:32,796 --> 00:07:35,796 Speaker 1: But do we need to make friends of our heroes, No, 110 00:07:35,916 --> 00:07:38,876 Speaker 1: we don't. What we demand of our heroes is that 111 00:07:38,876 --> 00:07:43,036 Speaker 1: they serve some larger cause, that they stand for something 112 00:07:43,356 --> 00:07:46,516 Speaker 1: that their name would be uttered with reverence on some 113 00:07:46,756 --> 00:07:47,916 Speaker 1: grand stage. 114 00:07:48,436 --> 00:07:52,596 Speaker 9: I know you've had a substantial debate with your friends 115 00:07:52,596 --> 00:07:55,036 Speaker 9: on the other side about the Statute of Northampton. 116 00:07:55,676 --> 00:07:59,476 Speaker 1: Do you know who that is? Neil Gorsuch, Supreme Court Justice, 117 00:07:59,996 --> 00:08:03,956 Speaker 1: during oral arguments in November of twenty twenty one, posing 118 00:08:03,996 --> 00:08:07,556 Speaker 1: a question to the legendary appellate lawyer Paul Clement. 119 00:08:08,316 --> 00:08:10,196 Speaker 9: We haven't heard about that today, and I just wanted 120 00:08:10,196 --> 00:08:10,956 Speaker 9: to give you a chance. 121 00:08:12,596 --> 00:08:14,836 Speaker 10: Thank you, Justice Gorsich. I'd say just a couple of 122 00:08:14,876 --> 00:08:16,916 Speaker 10: quick things about the Statute of Northampton. 123 00:08:17,196 --> 00:08:19,116 Speaker 1: Wait for it. Wait for it. 124 00:08:19,836 --> 00:08:22,556 Speaker 10: First of all, I think that it was very clear 125 00:08:22,756 --> 00:08:25,956 Speaker 10: from the Knight's case and the treatises that this Court 126 00:08:26,036 --> 00:08:28,996 Speaker 10: relied on in Heller that by the time of the 127 00:08:28,996 --> 00:08:30,916 Speaker 10: framing of the Knight's Case. 128 00:08:41,196 --> 00:08:43,956 Speaker 1: When the final accounting is done of the twenty first century, 129 00:08:44,276 --> 00:08:47,956 Speaker 1: a handful of Supreme Court cases will stand out as landmarks. 130 00:08:48,516 --> 00:08:52,196 Speaker 1: The Citizens United Case from twenty ten, for example, which 131 00:08:52,196 --> 00:08:56,196 Speaker 1: freed corporations to spend enormous amounts of money on political candidates, 132 00:08:56,756 --> 00:09:01,396 Speaker 1: the decision to overturn abortion rights, and very high on 133 00:09:01,476 --> 00:09:05,356 Speaker 1: that list, a pivotal gun rights case that came before 134 00:09:05,356 --> 00:09:09,276 Speaker 1: the Court in late twenty twenty one. 135 00:09:10,916 --> 00:09:13,996 Speaker 10: We will hear argument this morning in case twenty eight 136 00:09:14,156 --> 00:09:19,276 Speaker 10: forty three New York State Rifle and Pistol Association versus Bruin. 137 00:09:20,236 --> 00:09:24,076 Speaker 1: New York Rifle and Pistol otherwise known as the Bruin Case. 138 00:09:24,716 --> 00:09:27,996 Speaker 1: Broome was about the Second Amendment to the Constitution, a 139 00:09:28,036 --> 00:09:32,396 Speaker 1: well regulated militia comma being necessary to the security of 140 00:09:32,436 --> 00:09:35,276 Speaker 1: a free state Comma the right of the people to 141 00:09:35,356 --> 00:09:40,476 Speaker 1: keep and bear arms comma shall not be infringed. What 142 00:09:40,516 --> 00:09:44,156 Speaker 1: does that sentence mean? For years and years scholars have 143 00:09:44,276 --> 00:09:46,556 Speaker 1: argued about that. We even weighed in on it here 144 00:09:46,556 --> 00:09:50,516 Speaker 1: at Revisionist History. If you remember in season three's Divide 145 00:09:50,556 --> 00:09:54,476 Speaker 1: and Conquer episode with an investigation of the significance of 146 00:09:54,516 --> 00:09:58,116 Speaker 1: the commas that surround the phrase being necessary to the 147 00:09:58,116 --> 00:10:03,036 Speaker 1: security of a free state. But then along comes the 148 00:10:03,076 --> 00:10:07,076 Speaker 1: Bruin Case. For one hundred years, a law has been 149 00:10:07,116 --> 00:10:09,316 Speaker 1: on the books in New York State that says you 150 00:10:09,356 --> 00:10:12,196 Speaker 1: can only get a handgun if you prove you need 151 00:10:12,236 --> 00:10:16,036 Speaker 1: one for some specific purpose. And the gun lovers of 152 00:10:16,076 --> 00:10:20,956 Speaker 1: New York are unhappy about this. They sue. The Supreme 153 00:10:20,996 --> 00:10:23,956 Speaker 1: Court agrees to take the case, and in November of 154 00:10:23,956 --> 00:10:27,356 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, lawyers for both sides gather for what 155 00:10:27,436 --> 00:10:31,156 Speaker 1: is the first stage in all Supreme Court cases, oral arguments. 156 00:10:31,836 --> 00:10:35,356 Speaker 1: They're in the Court's Central Chamber on First Street, across 157 00:10:35,356 --> 00:10:39,276 Speaker 1: from the Capital, an imposing room in the grand Neoclassical 158 00:10:39,316 --> 00:10:43,956 Speaker 1: Revival style, forty four foot ceilings twenty four ionic columns 159 00:10:43,956 --> 00:10:48,196 Speaker 1: in marble shipped from Liguria, Italy. The justices are sitting 160 00:10:48,236 --> 00:10:51,476 Speaker 1: all in a row behind a long curved Mahogany table, 161 00:10:51,796 --> 00:10:53,636 Speaker 1: there to hear the lawyers on both sides of the 162 00:10:53,636 --> 00:10:58,716 Speaker 1: Bruin case present their oral arguments. The room's packed, A 163 00:10:58,756 --> 00:11:00,876 Speaker 1: sense of anticipation is in the. 164 00:11:00,836 --> 00:11:04,836 Speaker 10: Air, mister Chief Justice, and may it please the Court 165 00:11:05,436 --> 00:11:08,676 Speaker 10: the text of the second Amendment in Shrine's aright, not 166 00:11:08,756 --> 00:11:11,596 Speaker 10: just to keep arms, but to bear them, and the 167 00:11:11,676 --> 00:11:15,636 Speaker 10: relevant history and tradition exhaustively surveyed by this Court in 168 00:11:15,676 --> 00:11:20,076 Speaker 10: the Heller decision confirm that the text protects an individual 169 00:11:20,196 --> 00:11:24,396 Speaker 10: right to carry firearms outside the home for purposes of 170 00:11:24,476 --> 00:11:25,316 Speaker 10: self defense. 171 00:11:26,236 --> 00:11:29,156 Speaker 1: Paul Clement, lawyer for the gun rights group. 172 00:11:29,076 --> 00:11:31,396 Speaker 11: I'm happy to continue by point I missed a Clement, 173 00:11:31,796 --> 00:11:33,476 Speaker 11: I'm sorry to interrupt you. 174 00:11:33,956 --> 00:11:37,716 Speaker 1: That's Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. Thomas would go on 175 00:11:37,756 --> 00:11:40,836 Speaker 1: to write the Court's majority opinion in the case. This 176 00:11:41,436 --> 00:11:44,316 Speaker 1: is the moment where he tips his hand shows us 177 00:11:44,716 --> 00:11:45,476 Speaker 1: where he's leaning. 178 00:11:46,036 --> 00:11:54,436 Speaker 11: If we analyze this and use history, tradition texts of 179 00:11:54,556 --> 00:11:56,356 Speaker 11: the Second Amendment, we're going to have to do it 180 00:11:56,396 --> 00:12:03,476 Speaker 11: by analogy. So can you give me a regulation in 181 00:12:03,716 --> 00:12:08,156 Speaker 11: history that is a base that would form a basis 182 00:12:08,196 --> 00:12:11,076 Speaker 11: for legitimate regulation today. If we're going to do it 183 00:12:11,076 --> 00:12:14,116 Speaker 11: by analogy, what would we analogize it to? What would 184 00:12:14,116 --> 00:12:14,716 Speaker 11: that look like? 185 00:12:15,996 --> 00:12:19,036 Speaker 1: If you were a law student armed with a yellow highlighter, 186 00:12:19,356 --> 00:12:24,196 Speaker 1: you would underline the words history and tradition. Why Because 187 00:12:24,236 --> 00:12:27,556 Speaker 1: Thomas is telling us something crucial here. He doesn't care 188 00:12:27,596 --> 00:12:30,236 Speaker 1: about the commas in the Second Amendment. He doesn't care 189 00:12:30,276 --> 00:12:32,996 Speaker 1: about the arcane theories of the legal scholars. He doesn't 190 00:12:33,036 --> 00:12:35,236 Speaker 1: even care about what the citizens of New York State 191 00:12:35,476 --> 00:12:38,556 Speaker 1: may or may not think about restricting handguns. He cares 192 00:12:38,596 --> 00:12:42,796 Speaker 1: about what the Founders thought when they wrote the Second Amendment. 193 00:12:43,436 --> 00:12:45,116 Speaker 1: And when he says you're going to have to do 194 00:12:45,156 --> 00:12:48,116 Speaker 1: it by analogy, what he means is the only way 195 00:12:48,196 --> 00:12:52,676 Speaker 1: to decide whether a restriction on guns is valid, is 196 00:12:52,796 --> 00:12:56,316 Speaker 1: consistent with the Second Amendment? Is did the Founders way 197 00:12:56,316 --> 00:13:00,356 Speaker 1: back when ever, consider a restriction that looks like this 198 00:13:00,476 --> 00:13:03,076 Speaker 1: New York law, would they have been okay with it? 199 00:13:03,716 --> 00:13:08,196 Speaker 11: And Clement agrees, So can you give me a regulation 200 00:13:10,516 --> 00:13:14,716 Speaker 11: in history that is a base that would form a 201 00:13:14,756 --> 00:13:17,916 Speaker 11: basis for a legitimate regulation today. 202 00:13:17,996 --> 00:13:22,556 Speaker 1: Yes, that's what this case is about. We're arguing history here. 203 00:13:23,116 --> 00:13:25,316 Speaker 12: Mister Chief Justice, and may it please the court. 204 00:13:26,156 --> 00:13:29,236 Speaker 1: Then the attorney for the other side stands up, Barbara Underwood, 205 00:13:29,556 --> 00:13:31,756 Speaker 1: Solicitor General of the State of New York. 206 00:13:32,316 --> 00:13:35,676 Speaker 12: For centuries, English and American law have imposed limits on 207 00:13:35,796 --> 00:13:39,196 Speaker 12: carrying firearms in public and the interests of public safety. 208 00:13:39,716 --> 00:13:43,676 Speaker 12: The history runs from the fourteenth century Statute of Northampton, 209 00:13:43,756 --> 00:13:47,756 Speaker 12: which prohibited carrying arms in fairs and markets, and other 210 00:13:47,836 --> 00:13:52,516 Speaker 12: public gathering places to similar laws adopted by half of 211 00:13:52,556 --> 00:13:55,836 Speaker 12: the American colonies and states in the Founding period. 212 00:13:56,116 --> 00:13:59,876 Speaker 1: The Statute of Northampton. That's the third time we've heard 213 00:13:59,916 --> 00:14:02,756 Speaker 1: it mentioned in a case heard in the twenty first 214 00:14:02,756 --> 00:14:06,196 Speaker 1: century about a law passed in the twentieth century. The 215 00:14:06,276 --> 00:14:08,916 Speaker 1: court has asked for insight into how the Founders felt 216 00:14:08,956 --> 00:14:12,556 Speaker 1: in the eighteenth century, and the lawyers said, well, then 217 00:14:12,916 --> 00:14:16,956 Speaker 1: we need to look to the fourteenth century. Thirteen twenty 218 00:14:17,076 --> 00:14:21,116 Speaker 1: eight to be precise, your honor, during the reign of 219 00:14:21,236 --> 00:14:25,116 Speaker 1: Edward the Second, the English Parliament passed the Statute of Northampton, 220 00:14:25,636 --> 00:14:29,356 Speaker 1: which says that no man shall disturb the peace by 221 00:14:29,476 --> 00:14:34,996 Speaker 1: riding armed night or day, without quote forfeiting their bodies 222 00:14:35,036 --> 00:14:39,476 Speaker 1: to prison at the King's pleasure. The Statute of Northampton 223 00:14:39,836 --> 00:14:42,916 Speaker 1: is part of English common law. English common law is 224 00:14:42,916 --> 00:14:46,596 Speaker 1: what the first English settlers brought with them on the Mayflower. 225 00:14:47,116 --> 00:14:50,116 Speaker 1: English common law is what the Founding fathers learned in school. 226 00:14:51,036 --> 00:14:53,676 Speaker 1: You want an analogy from history, you want to play 227 00:14:53,796 --> 00:14:57,556 Speaker 1: early history, I give you a crucial law from thirteen 228 00:14:57,636 --> 00:15:02,316 Speaker 1: twenty eight, which absolutely the Founders knew about, that restricts 229 00:15:02,396 --> 00:15:06,636 Speaker 1: guns way more than anything. We're talking about in this court, 230 00:15:07,236 --> 00:15:13,116 Speaker 1: your honor cases are chess. This is check. The only 231 00:15:13,156 --> 00:15:15,396 Speaker 1: way the gun rights crowd can win is if they 232 00:15:15,436 --> 00:15:18,996 Speaker 1: can find their own bit of ancient history that trump's 233 00:15:19,316 --> 00:15:32,996 Speaker 1: the Statute of Northampton, and incredibly they do. John Lowe, Yeah, yeah, 234 00:15:33,276 --> 00:15:35,836 Speaker 1: going back to when you were doing your book, your 235 00:15:35,996 --> 00:15:38,676 Speaker 1: original work on this, how did you come across the 236 00:15:38,956 --> 00:15:39,876 Speaker 1: Sir John Knight case. 237 00:15:40,436 --> 00:15:44,556 Speaker 7: Ah, well, it's a long time ago now, but I 238 00:15:44,596 --> 00:15:47,756 Speaker 7: looked through all of the cases and there are these 239 00:15:47,796 --> 00:15:50,876 Speaker 7: little handbooks on what the law was at different times 240 00:15:50,916 --> 00:15:54,156 Speaker 7: that were published is to help justices of the peace 241 00:15:54,236 --> 00:15:57,356 Speaker 7: and judges. I looked through the laws. I did a 242 00:15:57,396 --> 00:16:05,116 Speaker 7: lot of manuscript reading and really investigating what Parliament was doing, 243 00:16:05,236 --> 00:16:06,636 Speaker 7: what was happening at that time. 244 00:16:07,036 --> 00:16:11,196 Speaker 1: Joyce Malcolm the Patrick Henry Professor of Constitutional Law and 245 00:16:11,236 --> 00:16:14,756 Speaker 1: the Second Amendment at the ntonin Scalia Law School at 246 00:16:14,796 --> 00:16:19,316 Speaker 1: George Mason University in Virginia. In a world where history 247 00:16:19,356 --> 00:16:24,196 Speaker 1: matters more than law or public sentiment, historians become heroes. 248 00:16:25,156 --> 00:16:28,916 Speaker 1: The magazine National Review once described Joyce Malcolm as the 249 00:16:29,076 --> 00:16:33,036 Speaker 1: nice girl who saved the Second Amendment. She quote looks 250 00:16:33,076 --> 00:16:37,476 Speaker 1: nothing like a hardened veteran of the gun control wars. Small, 251 00:16:38,076 --> 00:16:41,636 Speaker 1: slender and bookish. She's a wisp of a woman who 252 00:16:41,796 --> 00:16:45,876 Speaker 1: enjoys plunging into the archives and sitting through panel discussions 253 00:16:46,316 --> 00:16:51,156 Speaker 1: at academic conferences. Malcolm felt the argument over gun rights 254 00:16:51,396 --> 00:16:54,956 Speaker 1: had been set adrift from history. If we didn't know 255 00:16:54,996 --> 00:16:57,596 Speaker 1: what the founders thought, how would we know what we 256 00:16:57,716 --> 00:17:00,876 Speaker 1: should think. In her most famous book, To Keep and 257 00:17:00,916 --> 00:17:03,556 Speaker 1: Bear Arms, The Origin of an American Right, she set 258 00:17:03,556 --> 00:17:06,716 Speaker 1: out to answer that question, and while pouring through case 259 00:17:06,716 --> 00:17:10,396 Speaker 1: books from the eighteenth and nineteenth century, she found it 260 00:17:10,996 --> 00:17:14,956 Speaker 1: the key that unlocked the whole mystery. No more than 261 00:17:14,996 --> 00:17:17,676 Speaker 1: a handful of paragraphs and a short summary, but the 262 00:17:17,716 --> 00:17:24,956 Speaker 1: story it told was riveting. It's sixteen eighty six. England 263 00:17:25,076 --> 00:17:29,476 Speaker 1: is overwhelmingly Protestant, legally and officially dominated by the Church 264 00:17:29,516 --> 00:17:33,236 Speaker 1: of England, but for a brief period in the sixteen eighties, 265 00:17:33,676 --> 00:17:37,316 Speaker 1: the king was James the Second, who was Catholic, and 266 00:17:37,436 --> 00:17:41,116 Speaker 1: Church of England loyalists were outraged by the possibility that 267 00:17:41,156 --> 00:17:44,476 Speaker 1: the king might try and empower his fellow Catholics, and 268 00:17:44,596 --> 00:17:48,436 Speaker 1: one of those outraged Church of England loyalists was a 269 00:17:48,516 --> 00:17:52,556 Speaker 1: merchant from the coastal town of Bristol, a man named 270 00:17:53,636 --> 00:18:03,756 Speaker 1: Sir John Knight. One day, Knight rides up a steep 271 00:18:03,836 --> 00:18:06,916 Speaker 1: road outside Bristol to the Anglican Church of Saint Michael 272 00:18:06,956 --> 00:18:12,036 Speaker 1: on the Hill Sin the story goes waving his guns, 273 00:18:12,516 --> 00:18:16,756 Speaker 1: gives an impassioned speech. James the Second hears of it 274 00:18:17,236 --> 00:18:22,076 Speaker 1: and has Knight arrested charges him under the Statute of Northampton. 275 00:18:25,316 --> 00:18:28,156 Speaker 8: The information sets forth that the defendant did walk about 276 00:18:28,196 --> 00:18:30,396 Speaker 8: the straits armed with guns, and that he went into 277 00:18:30,476 --> 00:18:32,676 Speaker 8: the Church of Saint Michael in Bristol in the time 278 00:18:32,716 --> 00:18:36,396 Speaker 8: of divine service with a gun to terrify the King's subjects. 279 00:18:36,996 --> 00:18:42,916 Speaker 1: And what happens. The jury decides not guilty. Joyce Malcolm 280 00:18:42,956 --> 00:18:46,476 Speaker 1: reads this and it takes her breath away. Everyone thinks 281 00:18:46,516 --> 00:18:49,756 Speaker 1: that English common law, on which the American legal tradition 282 00:18:49,916 --> 00:18:53,436 Speaker 1: is based was hostile to people walking around with guns. 283 00:18:53,956 --> 00:18:57,836 Speaker 1: But that is not true. John Knight was acquitted. John 284 00:18:57,876 --> 00:19:01,036 Speaker 1: Knight goes up against the Statute of Northampton and John 285 00:19:01,116 --> 00:19:06,396 Speaker 1: Knight wins. One side says the Statute of Northampton. Check 286 00:19:07,156 --> 00:19:10,716 Speaker 1: The other side counters Night checkmate. 287 00:19:12,916 --> 00:19:16,196 Speaker 7: So there's been this big debate about what the Statute 288 00:19:16,276 --> 00:19:19,676 Speaker 7: of Northampton meant. But I can say that if it 289 00:19:19,836 --> 00:19:23,756 Speaker 7: was archaic by the seventeenth century, it was certainly archaic 290 00:19:24,116 --> 00:19:27,636 Speaker 7: by the eighteenth century, when we've got the Second Amendment, 291 00:19:27,676 --> 00:19:29,796 Speaker 7: and for sure the twenty first century. 292 00:19:30,316 --> 00:19:34,556 Speaker 1: The nice girl who saved the Second Amendment. And if 293 00:19:34,556 --> 00:19:36,916 Speaker 1: you read through the briefs file before the Supreme Court 294 00:19:36,956 --> 00:19:41,556 Speaker 1: in Bruin, what do you find John Knight. Everywhere we 295 00:19:41,636 --> 00:19:44,356 Speaker 1: hear about the famous case of Sir John Knight, we 296 00:19:44,436 --> 00:19:47,316 Speaker 1: get history lessons on John Knight. We learned that the 297 00:19:47,396 --> 00:19:50,716 Speaker 1: legal entanglement he found himself in after he burst into 298 00:19:50,756 --> 00:19:53,516 Speaker 1: the church at Saint Michael's on the Hill is the 299 00:19:53,556 --> 00:19:58,396 Speaker 1: most quote significant precedent quote in understanding a crucial turn 300 00:19:58,796 --> 00:20:03,156 Speaker 1: in Second Amendment law. During oral arguments, Neil Gore sutch 301 00:20:03,476 --> 00:20:07,236 Speaker 1: lobes as softball Paul Clement about the Statute of Northampton. 302 00:20:07,916 --> 00:20:12,076 Speaker 9: I know you've had a substantial debate with your friends 303 00:20:12,076 --> 00:20:15,596 Speaker 9: on the other side about the Statute of Northampton, and. 304 00:20:15,516 --> 00:20:19,796 Speaker 1: Paul Clement knocks the question out of the park John 305 00:20:19,876 --> 00:20:29,796 Speaker 1: Knight Baby. Then six months later comes the final ruling 306 00:20:29,996 --> 00:20:34,956 Speaker 1: in Bruin. Just as Clarence Thomas promised, It's all about history. 307 00:20:35,436 --> 00:20:38,676 Speaker 1: Eight pages on the perier between twelve eighty five and 308 00:20:38,796 --> 00:20:43,516 Speaker 1: seventeen seventy six, five pages on colonial America, nine pages 309 00:20:43,556 --> 00:20:46,956 Speaker 1: on seventeen ninety one to the Civil War, six pages 310 00:20:47,036 --> 00:20:50,476 Speaker 1: on the Path to reconstruction. One of the most important 311 00:20:50,556 --> 00:20:54,276 Speaker 1: cases of our generation, a landmark that once and for 312 00:20:54,356 --> 00:20:58,476 Speaker 1: all clarifies the most controversial of all the amendments to 313 00:20:58,516 --> 00:21:01,956 Speaker 1: the US Constitution. The debate is over now we know 314 00:21:02,676 --> 00:21:05,796 Speaker 1: with the founders under the sway of the Statute of Northampton. No, 315 00:21:06,036 --> 00:21:10,476 Speaker 1: they were not, the court rules history teaches us. Otherwise, 316 00:21:10,796 --> 00:21:12,916 Speaker 1: the founders would have frowned on the way in New 317 00:21:12,996 --> 00:21:15,756 Speaker 1: York State tried to regulate handguns. And we know this 318 00:21:15,876 --> 00:21:20,476 Speaker 1: because of one man's heroic acquittal. If you read the 319 00:21:20,476 --> 00:21:25,596 Speaker 1: brew and ruling, John Knight looms over it like a colossus. 320 00:21:26,036 --> 00:21:29,436 Speaker 1: John Knight, John Knight, John Knight. He pops up again 321 00:21:29,476 --> 00:21:32,836 Speaker 1: and again like a late seventeenth century whack them all. 322 00:21:34,276 --> 00:21:37,516 Speaker 1: I've been really drawn effect this morning. I was reading 323 00:21:37,556 --> 00:21:41,396 Speaker 1: over again this stuff about the Rex v. Knight, the 324 00:21:41,476 --> 00:21:44,836 Speaker 1: John Knight case. I call up a second amendment scholar 325 00:21:44,916 --> 00:21:48,916 Speaker 1: named Patrick Charles. Before long talk swung to John Knight. 326 00:21:49,076 --> 00:21:52,076 Speaker 1: Of course it did. There's no quitting John Knight. Once 327 00:21:52,116 --> 00:21:55,636 Speaker 1: you catch John Knight Fever, But you know that it's 328 00:21:55,676 --> 00:21:59,636 Speaker 1: a totally fascinating history taken in itself, but in context. 329 00:22:00,156 --> 00:22:03,356 Speaker 1: The idea that you know, in the middle of a 330 00:22:04,196 --> 00:22:10,876 Speaker 1: contemporary debate about how to handle the possess of dangerous 331 00:22:10,876 --> 00:22:14,996 Speaker 1: weapons in America, that we're spending our time obsessing about 332 00:22:15,036 --> 00:22:19,116 Speaker 1: a case from the seventeenth century in Bristol and England 333 00:22:19,156 --> 00:22:19,876 Speaker 1: is hilarious. 334 00:22:20,956 --> 00:22:23,156 Speaker 3: Yes, on the one level, you're you're absolutely critic. 335 00:22:23,436 --> 00:22:25,996 Speaker 1: Patrick Charles and I agreed that it was hilarious to 336 00:22:26,036 --> 00:22:28,316 Speaker 1: spend so much time on John Knight. And then what 337 00:22:28,396 --> 00:22:32,436 Speaker 1: do we do? We continue talking about John Knight. John 338 00:22:32,476 --> 00:22:36,116 Speaker 1: Knight is the groundhog who emerges from his musty English 339 00:22:36,196 --> 00:22:39,796 Speaker 1: lair every spring to cast a shadow across twenty first 340 00:22:39,836 --> 00:22:44,476 Speaker 1: century jurisprudence, the beaver who stealthily builds a legal edifice 341 00:22:44,876 --> 00:22:49,916 Speaker 1: out of mud and sticks. The constitutional scholar and a 342 00:22:49,956 --> 00:22:52,876 Speaker 1: founding member of the John Knight fan Club. David Copple 343 00:22:53,276 --> 00:22:56,196 Speaker 1: once combed through the library of an eighteenth century law 344 00:22:56,236 --> 00:22:59,276 Speaker 1: professor named George Wythe who taught law to a Supreme 345 00:22:59,276 --> 00:23:03,356 Speaker 1: Court justice, a couple of presidents, some founding fathers, and 346 00:23:03,436 --> 00:23:06,516 Speaker 1: he found that John Knight's name was all over law 347 00:23:06,556 --> 00:23:09,716 Speaker 1: books back then. Surely this is all all the founders 348 00:23:09,716 --> 00:23:12,436 Speaker 1: were talking about over a good pipe and a bottle 349 00:23:12,436 --> 00:23:17,876 Speaker 1: of claret in the drawing rooms of colonial Philadelphia. You 350 00:23:17,916 --> 00:23:19,756 Speaker 1: were in Bristol not long ago. 351 00:23:20,796 --> 00:23:23,796 Speaker 5: I was my wife and I were on vacation, and 352 00:23:23,916 --> 00:23:26,196 Speaker 5: as we were on our way from Cornwall to Wales, 353 00:23:27,436 --> 00:23:32,676 Speaker 5: I we did stop at Saint Michael Church in Bristol 354 00:23:32,796 --> 00:23:36,116 Speaker 5: where all this stuff happened, because I wanted to see it, 355 00:23:36,196 --> 00:23:38,916 Speaker 5: maybe see if Sir John Knight was buried in that graveyard. 356 00:23:39,716 --> 00:23:43,436 Speaker 1: David Copple, on vacation, says to his wife, we cannot 357 00:23:43,516 --> 00:23:47,236 Speaker 1: quit this storied isle without paying homage to the man 358 00:23:47,476 --> 00:23:52,916 Speaker 1: whose brave example saved America from the tyranny of restrictive 359 00:23:52,956 --> 00:23:53,756 Speaker 1: gun laws. 360 00:23:54,516 --> 00:23:57,636 Speaker 5: And it was interesting. It's not a huge cathedral type church. 361 00:23:57,756 --> 00:24:00,716 Speaker 5: It's a medium sized church, but it's up on the hill. 362 00:24:01,596 --> 00:24:04,356 Speaker 5: As I learned the hard way, because I was driving 363 00:24:04,556 --> 00:24:07,636 Speaker 5: a stick shift and getting up that very steep hill 364 00:24:07,756 --> 00:24:09,116 Speaker 5: was quite a challenge. 365 00:24:09,596 --> 00:24:09,916 Speaker 2: Yeah. 366 00:24:09,996 --> 00:24:12,716 Speaker 1: Yeah, but you're in the area and you couldn't resist 367 00:24:12,756 --> 00:24:15,156 Speaker 1: to stop by. And actually I kind of want to 368 00:24:15,156 --> 00:24:16,356 Speaker 1: see Saint Michael's myself. 369 00:24:16,916 --> 00:24:18,556 Speaker 5: Go ahead, tell me why you want to You want 370 00:24:18,556 --> 00:24:19,276 Speaker 5: to see it too. 371 00:24:19,356 --> 00:24:21,676 Speaker 1: Of course I do. I mean, who wouldn't want to 372 00:24:21,756 --> 00:24:23,996 Speaker 1: learn of this giant in the place of his birth 373 00:24:24,116 --> 00:24:28,396 Speaker 1: and death. But then, just as I was packing my 374 00:24:28,516 --> 00:24:31,396 Speaker 1: bags for Bristol, I thought, wait, let me check in 375 00:24:31,476 --> 00:24:36,516 Speaker 1: with a more disinterested historian of that period. I called around. 376 00:24:36,956 --> 00:24:40,796 Speaker 1: Someone recommended a man named Jonathan Barry of the University 377 00:24:40,836 --> 00:24:44,316 Speaker 1: of Exeter. When you, as a historian of this period, 378 00:24:44,916 --> 00:24:48,516 Speaker 1: see the way that John Knight has suddenly popped up 379 00:24:48,596 --> 00:24:53,676 Speaker 1: in American gun rights discourse, what's your reaction? 380 00:24:54,156 --> 00:24:56,956 Speaker 6: Well, I find it bizarre because nobody that's ever heard 381 00:24:56,996 --> 00:24:59,876 Speaker 6: of him or the case, and it has no implication, 382 00:25:00,116 --> 00:25:02,036 Speaker 6: you know, as far as I know. In the English 383 00:25:02,556 --> 00:25:04,516 Speaker 6: jurist Britain's not the land of Drews. But you know 384 00:25:04,876 --> 00:25:07,916 Speaker 6: it's it's of no significance. 385 00:25:07,876 --> 00:25:12,196 Speaker 1: Huh, England, John Knight is a nobody, But in the 386 00:25:12,236 --> 00:25:15,156 Speaker 1: hallowed halls of the Supreme Court three and a half 387 00:25:15,196 --> 00:25:21,476 Speaker 1: thousand miles away, he's a superstar. It's a puzzle, and 388 00:25:21,556 --> 00:25:35,636 Speaker 1: it is for puzzles like these that God invented revisionous history. 389 00:25:43,516 --> 00:25:46,516 Speaker 1: One of the problems associated with the coronation of John 390 00:25:46,596 --> 00:25:49,916 Speaker 1: Knight as the savior of the gun rights movement is 391 00:25:49,916 --> 00:25:52,316 Speaker 1: that our understanding of the details of his arrest and 392 00:25:52,356 --> 00:25:57,556 Speaker 1: acquittal was limited. We had the verdict, but not much else. 393 00:25:58,196 --> 00:26:01,516 Speaker 1: After all, it happened in sixteen eighty six. It's not 394 00:26:01,716 --> 00:26:05,076 Speaker 1: like there are digital records somewhere in the Bristol courthouse. 395 00:26:05,756 --> 00:26:08,716 Speaker 1: What was known about the case came from legal catalogs 396 00:26:08,716 --> 00:26:11,436 Speaker 1: from the eighteenth and nineteenth century, the kind that a 397 00:26:11,516 --> 00:26:15,876 Speaker 1: lawyer or a judge might subscribe to that offer brief summaries, 398 00:26:16,036 --> 00:26:19,156 Speaker 1: news briefings of the goings on in various court houses 399 00:26:19,156 --> 00:26:23,396 Speaker 1: around England. That's what Joyce Malcolm found in her Eureka moment, 400 00:26:23,996 --> 00:26:26,876 Speaker 1: a brief write up from a long ago legal newsletter 401 00:26:27,116 --> 00:26:28,556 Speaker 1: on a matter of Rex v. 402 00:26:28,756 --> 00:26:28,916 Speaker 12: Night. 403 00:26:29,636 --> 00:26:32,876 Speaker 1: It was about a paragraph long. But let's be honest, 404 00:26:33,556 --> 00:26:37,356 Speaker 1: one paragraph in a legal digest is not exactly the 405 00:26:37,396 --> 00:26:42,156 Speaker 1: strongest of foundations for completely overturning our understanding of the 406 00:26:42,196 --> 00:26:48,076 Speaker 1: Second Amendment. And, perhaps more ominously, the newly inaugurated members 407 00:26:48,316 --> 00:26:51,356 Speaker 1: of the Sir John Knight Fan Club tended to be lawyers, 408 00:26:51,876 --> 00:26:55,316 Speaker 1: and lawyers deal in black and white hard facts, the 409 00:26:55,396 --> 00:26:59,236 Speaker 1: letter of the law, tangible evidence. But now they had 410 00:26:59,276 --> 00:27:02,516 Speaker 1: crossed over into the land of history, and history is 411 00:27:02,556 --> 00:27:05,516 Speaker 1: not like the law at all. History is a living, 412 00:27:05,596 --> 00:27:08,476 Speaker 1: organic thing that gets rewritten all the time. I mean, 413 00:27:08,596 --> 00:27:11,436 Speaker 1: why do you think we call this podcast revisionist history 414 00:27:11,956 --> 00:27:15,316 Speaker 1: because historians love to say, wait a minute, I found 415 00:27:15,316 --> 00:27:18,396 Speaker 1: something new that makes me think we didn't quite realize 416 00:27:18,436 --> 00:27:21,396 Speaker 1: what we were talking about before. And in the case 417 00:27:21,916 --> 00:27:25,956 Speaker 1: of Sir John Knight, that something new was the Newsletter 418 00:27:26,316 --> 00:27:36,916 Speaker 1: of the Intrepid Roger Morris Rojamoris Roger Morris was a 419 00:27:36,996 --> 00:27:40,556 Speaker 1: journalist who wrote a private newsletter in the sixteen eighties 420 00:27:40,796 --> 00:27:45,356 Speaker 1: for a variety of well connected clients. Roger Morris knew 421 00:27:45,436 --> 00:27:49,836 Speaker 1: everyone and everything in late seventeenth century England. He passed 422 00:27:49,836 --> 00:27:52,756 Speaker 1: on high end gossip. He told stories no one had 423 00:27:52,756 --> 00:27:56,756 Speaker 1: ever heard before, about brothels and prostitutes and somebody bearing 424 00:27:56,796 --> 00:27:59,636 Speaker 1: their breast to the Moroccan ambassador. He wrote about how 425 00:27:59,676 --> 00:28:01,796 Speaker 1: the ice was so thick in the long cold winter 426 00:28:01,876 --> 00:28:05,196 Speaker 1: of sixteen eighty four that people roasted an ox on 427 00:28:05,236 --> 00:28:08,836 Speaker 1: the River Thames. He saw the King's baby and air 428 00:28:08,956 --> 00:28:11,916 Speaker 1: a close and reported and you have to love this 429 00:28:11,996 --> 00:28:16,796 Speaker 1: little bit of late medieval trolling. The child was a large, 430 00:28:16,836 --> 00:28:20,036 Speaker 1: full child in the head and the upper parts, but 431 00:28:20,116 --> 00:28:25,676 Speaker 1: not suitably proportioned in the lower parts. Roger Morris was 432 00:28:25,716 --> 00:28:31,676 Speaker 1: a gold mine, but there were a few problems. The 433 00:28:31,716 --> 00:28:35,196 Speaker 1: first was that Roger Morris's reputation did not extend beyond 434 00:28:35,236 --> 00:28:38,716 Speaker 1: the late seventeenth century. His newsletters ended up in an 435 00:28:38,756 --> 00:28:42,076 Speaker 1: obscure library in central London where no one paid attention 436 00:28:42,196 --> 00:28:47,316 Speaker 1: to them for several hundred years. Second problem, Roger Morris 437 00:28:47,716 --> 00:28:52,276 Speaker 1: was incredibly prolific. The Roger Morris archives extend into the 438 00:28:52,516 --> 00:28:55,516 Speaker 1: millions of words, so if you wanted to find out 439 00:28:55,556 --> 00:28:58,836 Speaker 1: what Roger Morris had to say about this or that, 440 00:28:58,876 --> 00:29:03,716 Speaker 1: you had to make a commitment. Third, and maybe the 441 00:29:03,716 --> 00:29:08,276 Speaker 1: biggest problem of all, Roger Morris's entire life work was 442 00:29:08,316 --> 00:29:12,116 Speaker 1: written in code. I mean, if you're could have dissed 443 00:29:12,116 --> 00:29:14,516 Speaker 1: the private parts of the heir to the throne, you 444 00:29:14,636 --> 00:29:16,156 Speaker 1: have to take some precautions. 445 00:29:20,516 --> 00:29:24,516 Speaker 8: There was an attempt by historian called Douglas Lacy to 446 00:29:24,636 --> 00:29:27,396 Speaker 8: try and to start to work on a volume. 447 00:29:27,956 --> 00:29:29,436 Speaker 1: That's the historian Tim Harris. 448 00:29:29,996 --> 00:29:33,796 Speaker 8: He did a book in the nineteen fifties. He couldn't 449 00:29:33,836 --> 00:29:36,476 Speaker 8: break the shorthand couldn't break the code. And it's too 450 00:29:36,516 --> 00:29:37,876 Speaker 8: much for one person's take. 451 00:29:37,716 --> 00:29:41,716 Speaker 1: On a cryptographer from Oxford had to get involved. Teams 452 00:29:41,716 --> 00:29:45,476 Speaker 1: of historians volunteered, passing the job down from one generation 453 00:29:45,596 --> 00:29:50,116 Speaker 1: to the next, until finally there it was a full 454 00:29:50,236 --> 00:29:56,596 Speaker 1: shelf of encyclopedia sized volumes offering hitherto unknown insights into 455 00:29:56,596 --> 00:30:00,156 Speaker 1: one of the most complex eras in British history. And 456 00:30:00,236 --> 00:30:03,956 Speaker 1: Roger Morris, it turns out, had a lot to say 457 00:30:04,316 --> 00:30:05,396 Speaker 1: about Sir John Knight. 458 00:30:05,996 --> 00:30:09,396 Speaker 8: It's a seven volume edition and there was a team 459 00:30:09,436 --> 00:30:12,036 Speaker 8: of us who did it, and now it's widely available. 460 00:30:12,076 --> 00:30:14,196 Speaker 8: And because it's widely available, people are looking at it 461 00:30:14,236 --> 00:30:15,916 Speaker 8: more and say, oh, there's not more we can find 462 00:30:15,956 --> 00:30:20,436 Speaker 8: out about this is John Knight case. It's an incredible source. 463 00:30:20,476 --> 00:30:23,796 Speaker 8: It has lots of very valuable information, and it's clearly 464 00:30:24,196 --> 00:30:27,516 Speaker 8: well informed and if you could check his information against 465 00:30:27,556 --> 00:30:29,996 Speaker 8: other sources, it's clearly accurate. But he also gives you 466 00:30:30,076 --> 00:30:32,316 Speaker 8: additional information which you won't get elsewhere. 467 00:30:33,236 --> 00:30:36,276 Speaker 1: So much additional information. Oh my god. 468 00:30:36,596 --> 00:30:41,836 Speaker 6: So he was a Bristol merchant. He was from quite 469 00:30:41,876 --> 00:30:44,396 Speaker 6: an important Bristol mercantile family. 470 00:30:45,356 --> 00:30:49,636 Speaker 1: Jonathan Berry, historian at the University of Exeter. The Knights 471 00:30:49,796 --> 00:30:53,676 Speaker 1: ran sugar refineries, They had plantations in the Caribbean. They 472 00:30:53,676 --> 00:30:57,236 Speaker 1: were politically well connected and their sympathies did not lie 473 00:30:57,316 --> 00:31:00,876 Speaker 1: with the Catholic King of England, James the second, John 474 00:31:00,916 --> 00:31:05,316 Speaker 1: Knight hated Catholics. One day he learns that a group 475 00:31:05,356 --> 00:31:08,556 Speaker 1: of Irish Catholics are holding a secret mass in a 476 00:31:08,596 --> 00:31:12,756 Speaker 1: house in he arranges to have the priest arrested. 477 00:31:13,756 --> 00:31:15,996 Speaker 8: So he gets the Lord Mayor and other magistrates to 478 00:31:16,236 --> 00:31:19,876 Speaker 8: raid this Catholic chapel. A couple of weeks later, there's 479 00:31:19,876 --> 00:31:24,116 Speaker 8: an anti Catholic ritual in Bristol which the government suspects 480 00:31:24,116 --> 00:31:27,396 Speaker 8: the magistrates to Bristol and maybe Sir John Knight were 481 00:31:27,436 --> 00:31:31,436 Speaker 8: involved in encouraging. Where they parade through the city scoffing 482 00:31:31,516 --> 00:31:34,156 Speaker 8: the mass. They hold a piece of bread up in 483 00:31:34,516 --> 00:31:37,236 Speaker 8: the air, and they have someone dressed as a Virgin 484 00:31:37,276 --> 00:31:39,156 Speaker 8: Mary and someone dressed as a monk, and the monk 485 00:31:39,276 --> 00:31:40,756 Speaker 8: is fundeling the Virgin Mary. 486 00:31:41,036 --> 00:31:43,796 Speaker 1: The monk is fondling the Virgin Mary. 487 00:31:43,996 --> 00:31:45,956 Speaker 8: So the government is upset about this. 488 00:31:46,316 --> 00:31:49,116 Speaker 1: The King of England is a Catholic, remember. 489 00:31:49,156 --> 00:31:52,156 Speaker 8: And after that, Sir John Knight claims that he's threatened 490 00:31:52,516 --> 00:31:55,396 Speaker 8: and he is beaten up by a couple of irishmen. 491 00:31:55,476 --> 00:31:58,076 Speaker 8: So Sir John Knight was advised to retire to a 492 00:31:58,116 --> 00:32:01,876 Speaker 8: house in the country, but because he was in fear 493 00:32:01,916 --> 00:32:05,156 Speaker 8: of beaten up, he was quite They beat him and 494 00:32:05,196 --> 00:32:07,876 Speaker 8: kicked him when they attacked him. When he came into 495 00:32:08,196 --> 00:32:13,316 Speaker 8: Bristol subsequently, he came with a company of people carrying 496 00:32:13,356 --> 00:32:18,396 Speaker 8: swords and muscus in front before him, but he left 497 00:32:18,436 --> 00:32:22,276 Speaker 8: these at the walls of the city, because you're not 498 00:32:22,316 --> 00:32:25,596 Speaker 8: allowed to carry arms into the city Bristol. Bristol had 499 00:32:25,596 --> 00:32:26,756 Speaker 8: its own bylaws. 500 00:32:27,316 --> 00:32:30,636 Speaker 1: Yes, you heard that correctly. He checks his guns at 501 00:32:30,636 --> 00:32:33,996 Speaker 1: the gate. Now this is worth a slight digression. 502 00:32:34,156 --> 00:32:39,716 Speaker 6: We tend to forget how violent and militaristic seventeenth century 503 00:32:41,156 --> 00:32:44,676 Speaker 6: England in general, and a place like Bristol in particular were. 504 00:32:45,196 --> 00:32:46,556 Speaker 1: Jonathan Barry Again. 505 00:32:46,876 --> 00:32:49,196 Speaker 6: One reflection of the fact is that Bristol was a 506 00:32:49,276 --> 00:32:53,436 Speaker 6: leading place for private tiering, where basically you capture the 507 00:32:53,476 --> 00:32:56,116 Speaker 6: ships of your rival traders, as it were, so you 508 00:32:56,236 --> 00:32:59,636 Speaker 6: load yourself up. Bristol is just beginning at this period 509 00:32:59,636 --> 00:33:04,356 Speaker 6: to get involved in the slave trade with Africa, which 510 00:33:04,436 --> 00:33:08,276 Speaker 6: of course both involved the use of military force, but also, 511 00:33:08,316 --> 00:33:10,596 Speaker 6: as you may know, the chief one of the chief 512 00:33:10,756 --> 00:33:14,516 Speaker 6: products that you actually took there to trade with was arms. 513 00:33:15,876 --> 00:33:18,156 Speaker 6: And one of the things that Bristol and places around 514 00:33:18,156 --> 00:33:20,436 Speaker 6: it were producing, in fact, were lots of arms. But 515 00:33:20,516 --> 00:33:25,356 Speaker 6: also they needed weapons, cannons for their ships and so on. 516 00:33:26,076 --> 00:33:27,956 Speaker 6: So we have to imagine the society in which there 517 00:33:27,996 --> 00:33:30,956 Speaker 6: are a lot of people that are used to using weapons. 518 00:33:31,516 --> 00:33:34,116 Speaker 1: So why would the nightcase represent some kind of turning 519 00:33:34,156 --> 00:33:38,596 Speaker 1: point in British attitudes towards guns. Bristol was a washing guns, 520 00:33:39,076 --> 00:33:40,836 Speaker 1: so much so that they were forced to put gun 521 00:33:40,916 --> 00:33:44,596 Speaker 1: control measures in place that put anything in America today 522 00:33:44,996 --> 00:33:45,516 Speaker 1: to shame. 523 00:33:46,156 --> 00:33:48,556 Speaker 6: I mean, I think it's absurd to think that the 524 00:33:48,596 --> 00:33:51,116 Speaker 6: crucial issue here was about whether a man was bearing 525 00:33:51,236 --> 00:33:54,076 Speaker 6: arms or not because of lots of people wandering around 526 00:33:54,156 --> 00:33:54,996 Speaker 6: bearing arms. 527 00:33:55,476 --> 00:33:58,836 Speaker 1: Anyway, back to our story with Tim Herris. 528 00:33:58,596 --> 00:34:01,636 Speaker 8: And then on one day he goes to church, and 529 00:34:01,716 --> 00:34:03,996 Speaker 8: he does go with his attendant and goes with a 530 00:34:04,036 --> 00:34:08,076 Speaker 8: gun and sort, but he leaves these. He says, he 531 00:34:08,156 --> 00:34:10,836 Speaker 8: leaves these the porch with his attendant. 532 00:34:11,756 --> 00:34:14,916 Speaker 1: The church is Saint Michael's on the hill, his church, 533 00:34:15,436 --> 00:34:19,756 Speaker 1: the one overlooking Bristol. He gets off his horse, checks 534 00:34:19,756 --> 00:34:24,196 Speaker 1: his weapons at the door. It's not enormously significant here. 535 00:34:24,276 --> 00:34:27,476 Speaker 1: So here we have a case that Second Amendment types 536 00:34:27,516 --> 00:34:30,876 Speaker 1: are claiming, is this enormously important precedent for the right 537 00:34:31,276 --> 00:34:33,876 Speaker 1: of an individual to bear arms? But the individual in 538 00:34:33,956 --> 00:34:37,676 Speaker 1: question checks his arms at the door of the church. 539 00:34:39,796 --> 00:34:43,996 Speaker 1: I mean, it's like this is nothing to do. He's 540 00:34:44,036 --> 00:34:46,156 Speaker 1: not even he's not waving his gun around or claiming 541 00:34:46,196 --> 00:34:49,196 Speaker 1: he can wave his gun around. He he quite willingly 542 00:34:49,916 --> 00:34:53,596 Speaker 1: adheres to local norms about where guns should and shouldn't 543 00:34:53,596 --> 00:34:54,436 Speaker 1: be carried. 544 00:34:56,156 --> 00:34:58,996 Speaker 8: Yes, that seems to be the case. 545 00:34:59,956 --> 00:35:03,876 Speaker 1: Okay, So Night enters the church and he shouts out, 546 00:35:04,116 --> 00:35:06,476 Speaker 1: the Catholics are trying to kill me, and they're going 547 00:35:06,556 --> 00:35:10,716 Speaker 1: to try and kill you too. Another quick digression. I 548 00:35:10,796 --> 00:35:14,316 Speaker 1: asked Jonathan Barry about that moment. One question before we 549 00:35:14,356 --> 00:35:16,036 Speaker 1: go on with the story, I want to go back 550 00:35:17,076 --> 00:35:20,076 Speaker 1: how Catholic was Bristol in this era? 551 00:35:20,196 --> 00:35:23,596 Speaker 6: So if almost almost non existent? 552 00:35:24,476 --> 00:35:28,316 Speaker 1: Oh wait wait, so wait, So John Knight is going 553 00:35:28,316 --> 00:35:31,676 Speaker 1: into this parish church and saying we're all in danger 554 00:35:31,716 --> 00:35:34,316 Speaker 1: of being God freed by the Catholics. 555 00:35:33,916 --> 00:35:37,516 Speaker 6: Somebody, and the number of Catholics in Bristol to have 556 00:35:37,676 --> 00:35:39,836 Speaker 6: conducted such a plot was minuscule. 557 00:35:40,196 --> 00:35:43,836 Speaker 1: So he goes into this church and he says he 558 00:35:43,916 --> 00:35:47,436 Speaker 1: tries to kind of whip the church up into a 559 00:35:47,476 --> 00:35:50,676 Speaker 1: frenzy about the Irish threat, and the government says, you've 560 00:35:50,676 --> 00:35:54,076 Speaker 1: gone too far. He's implying that the Catholic king is 561 00:35:54,116 --> 00:35:58,836 Speaker 1: somehow conspiring against his own people, and that's when he 562 00:35:58,876 --> 00:36:02,276 Speaker 1: gets in trouble with the law. Yes, he doesn't sound 563 00:36:02,356 --> 00:36:03,596 Speaker 1: very likable, Sir John Knight. 564 00:36:03,956 --> 00:36:06,236 Speaker 6: Nobody appears to have liked Sir John Knight. 565 00:36:06,796 --> 00:36:10,956 Speaker 1: No, the government goes out after John Knight because he's 566 00:36:10,996 --> 00:36:15,796 Speaker 1: a jackass. He's running around conjuring up ridiculous conspiracy theories 567 00:36:15,916 --> 00:36:16,796 Speaker 1: about Catholics. 568 00:36:17,476 --> 00:36:22,676 Speaker 8: So the charge. All the newsletter accounts I've read emphasize 569 00:36:23,436 --> 00:36:26,996 Speaker 8: that it's the words that he spoke in the church, 570 00:36:27,756 --> 00:36:32,436 Speaker 8: which and therefore this was proof of his disloyalty. That 571 00:36:32,636 --> 00:36:35,596 Speaker 8: was a key issue for why they wanted to arrest him. 572 00:36:35,996 --> 00:36:39,916 Speaker 8: That I decide to get him on the Statute of Northampton, 573 00:36:41,116 --> 00:36:44,716 Speaker 8: which is a statute from thirteen twenty eight, saying it's 574 00:36:44,716 --> 00:36:48,116 Speaker 8: a breach of the peace, and he pleaded not guilty. 575 00:36:48,276 --> 00:36:51,916 Speaker 8: He claims that he didn't take the gun or the 576 00:36:51,956 --> 00:36:56,196 Speaker 8: sword into the church, he left it outside. And the 577 00:36:56,276 --> 00:36:58,716 Speaker 8: church is actually just outside the wars of the city 578 00:36:58,716 --> 00:37:02,796 Speaker 8: of Bristol, as it was back then. It's Protestant church obviously, 579 00:37:03,476 --> 00:37:07,836 Speaker 8: and he leaves the gun and the sword outside, and 580 00:37:08,236 --> 00:37:11,876 Speaker 8: the jury said, he's got a proven track record of 581 00:37:11,916 --> 00:37:15,956 Speaker 8: being loyal to the government, and so they found him 582 00:37:15,996 --> 00:37:16,916 Speaker 8: not guilty. 583 00:37:16,956 --> 00:37:20,276 Speaker 1: Because he didn't brandish a gun in church. The jury 584 00:37:20,396 --> 00:37:23,756 Speaker 1: didn't find him disloyal because they knew he'd been loyal 585 00:37:23,796 --> 00:37:27,476 Speaker 1: to the previous Protestant king. He wasn't armed, so they 586 00:37:27,476 --> 00:37:30,516 Speaker 1: couldn't get him on that. He just didn't like Catholics. 587 00:37:31,076 --> 00:37:34,356 Speaker 1: And so what this is Bristol in sixteen eighty six. 588 00:37:34,716 --> 00:37:38,516 Speaker 1: No one in Bristol in sixteen eighty six likes Catholics. 589 00:37:39,036 --> 00:37:42,396 Speaker 1: The case against him is dead on arrival. And by 590 00:37:42,396 --> 00:37:45,036 Speaker 1: the way, no one knows this better than the government. 591 00:37:45,716 --> 00:37:49,716 Speaker 8: So they actually don't want to prosecute Knights. They actually 592 00:37:49,756 --> 00:37:52,876 Speaker 8: want Knight to apologize, and then they try and bury 593 00:37:52,916 --> 00:37:55,716 Speaker 8: the case. That seems to be what's implied in the 594 00:37:55,756 --> 00:37:59,036 Speaker 8: newsletter accounts I've read. That doesn't happen. They would have 595 00:37:59,036 --> 00:38:02,156 Speaker 8: preferred if he'd apologized, and they could have said, okay, 596 00:38:02,156 --> 00:38:02,716 Speaker 8: we'll let it go. 597 00:38:03,876 --> 00:38:08,036 Speaker 1: So to recap John Knight's episode in the Church of 598 00:38:08,036 --> 00:38:11,316 Speaker 1: Saint Michael has become a heroic moment to the American 599 00:38:11,356 --> 00:38:15,036 Speaker 1: gun rights movement, even though John Knight wasn't actually carrying 600 00:38:15,076 --> 00:38:17,756 Speaker 1: a gun when he entered the Church of Saint Michael, 601 00:38:18,076 --> 00:38:20,596 Speaker 1: even though the case against him had nothing to do 602 00:38:20,676 --> 00:38:23,756 Speaker 1: with guns, even though Bristol in fact had gun control 603 00:38:23,956 --> 00:38:27,396 Speaker 1: ordinances that puts every gun control ordinance in America today 604 00:38:27,396 --> 00:38:31,676 Speaker 1: to shame, And even though the whole brew was just 605 00:38:31,716 --> 00:38:34,516 Speaker 1: about him being a bigot who was terrified of a 606 00:38:34,556 --> 00:38:38,916 Speaker 1: Catholic conspiracy taking over Bristol, even though there were hardly 607 00:38:38,956 --> 00:38:42,676 Speaker 1: any Catholics in Bristol, and even though the whole case 608 00:38:43,356 --> 00:38:46,596 Speaker 1: was dead on arrival, and Knight could have apologized and 609 00:38:46,676 --> 00:38:49,596 Speaker 1: made it all go away, and just didn't feel like it. 610 00:38:50,716 --> 00:38:53,316 Speaker 1: But the only way you would know all this is 611 00:38:53,396 --> 00:38:56,076 Speaker 1: if you were willing to wade to the seven volumes 612 00:38:56,356 --> 00:39:01,876 Speaker 1: of Roger Morris's coded newsletters. And who has time for that? 613 00:39:03,196 --> 00:39:07,116 Speaker 1: I was reading the did you read there's a the 614 00:39:07,276 --> 00:39:11,796 Speaker 1: historian Tim Harris essay on I was amused to see 615 00:39:11,836 --> 00:39:14,316 Speaker 1: there was that. In his he talks about the Sir 616 00:39:14,436 --> 00:39:19,796 Speaker 1: John Knight case, about how when he goes to the church, 617 00:39:19,996 --> 00:39:23,916 Speaker 1: the Protestant church, to speak to what he thought of 618 00:39:24,076 --> 00:39:27,076 Speaker 1: was the threat being posed by the Catholics and Bristol. 619 00:39:28,276 --> 00:39:31,516 Speaker 1: He insists that he checks his weapons at the front 620 00:39:31,556 --> 00:39:34,076 Speaker 1: of the church, and he also says that when he 621 00:39:34,596 --> 00:39:38,116 Speaker 1: goes into Bristol, he abided by the bylaws of Bristol 622 00:39:38,476 --> 00:39:44,596 Speaker 1: and didn't carry his weapons into the past the city's limits. 623 00:39:45,516 --> 00:39:48,116 Speaker 1: I wondered how Joyce Malcolm made sense of all these 624 00:39:48,156 --> 00:39:52,236 Speaker 1: new facts. The Roger Morris newsletters were finally decoded more 625 00:39:52,276 --> 00:39:55,556 Speaker 1: than ten years after she wrote her opus to keep 626 00:39:55,636 --> 00:40:01,196 Speaker 1: him bare arms. So I'm just curious, think, how do 627 00:40:01,316 --> 00:40:03,996 Speaker 1: those sort of two facts fit into this story. So 628 00:40:04,036 --> 00:40:07,236 Speaker 1: even if we have if the Sir John Knight case 629 00:40:07,756 --> 00:40:13,756 Speaker 1: represents kind of affirmation of the individual right to peace, 630 00:40:13,796 --> 00:40:18,276 Speaker 1: will carry So John Knight himself is complying with some 631 00:40:18,316 --> 00:40:21,636 Speaker 1: pretty strict gun control laws, isn't he. 632 00:40:23,196 --> 00:40:26,476 Speaker 7: I think, to be honest that I think that Professor 633 00:40:26,516 --> 00:40:31,236 Speaker 7: Harris is wrong. First of all, because there was such 634 00:40:31,236 --> 00:40:33,796 Speaker 7: a There was all of these duties and requirements to 635 00:40:33,836 --> 00:40:37,876 Speaker 7: protect yourself. And in the in the judge's opinion in 636 00:40:37,956 --> 00:40:40,676 Speaker 7: the in there Sir John Knight case, he says that 637 00:40:40,756 --> 00:40:46,316 Speaker 7: the law allows gentlemen to go about with arms as 638 00:40:46,316 --> 00:40:50,236 Speaker 7: long as they're not you know, unusual and the dangerous weapons. 639 00:40:50,756 --> 00:40:54,276 Speaker 7: So the judge seems at odds with Professor Harris. 640 00:40:55,356 --> 00:40:57,836 Speaker 1: But what do you what do you make of Sir 641 00:40:57,956 --> 00:41:02,116 Speaker 1: John Knight's claim that he checked his weapons at the 642 00:41:02,116 --> 00:41:04,236 Speaker 1: front of the church and didn't carry his weapons into 643 00:41:04,276 --> 00:41:05,596 Speaker 1: the city of Bristol. 644 00:41:07,876 --> 00:41:11,636 Speaker 7: I find that pery odd because if that were the case, 645 00:41:11,676 --> 00:41:13,516 Speaker 7: if there was a law that he couldn't carry his 646 00:41:13,596 --> 00:41:16,316 Speaker 7: weapons into the city of Bristol at all, that the 647 00:41:16,316 --> 00:41:19,116 Speaker 7: whole city was what we would now call a sensitive 648 00:41:19,156 --> 00:41:22,876 Speaker 7: place that no one could wear. It goes against your 649 00:41:22,956 --> 00:41:25,316 Speaker 7: right to protect yourself. That I was against your right 650 00:41:25,356 --> 00:41:27,756 Speaker 7: to protect yourself in your house. It goes against the 651 00:41:27,836 --> 00:41:34,996 Speaker 7: judges ruling. And to be honest, Professor Harris is British. 652 00:41:35,516 --> 00:41:37,516 Speaker 7: They don't think much of the right to be armed. 653 00:41:38,836 --> 00:41:41,876 Speaker 1: The homicide rate in the United States, if you're wondering, 654 00:41:42,436 --> 00:41:45,636 Speaker 1: is four and a half times higher than the United Kingdom. 655 00:41:46,716 --> 00:41:52,036 Speaker 7: When I explored that right and told my British friends 656 00:41:52,116 --> 00:41:54,916 Speaker 7: about it, most of them didn't even realize they ever 657 00:41:54,996 --> 00:41:57,956 Speaker 7: had had a right to be armed. There's this whole 658 00:41:58,076 --> 00:42:01,196 Speaker 7: history and that they haven't looked at. And I think 659 00:42:01,236 --> 00:42:04,356 Speaker 7: it was because I said earlier, I asked an American 660 00:42:04,436 --> 00:42:09,596 Speaker 7: question we were interested in that. They weren't particularly interest 661 00:42:09,716 --> 00:42:14,876 Speaker 7: in a right to be armed, and so it wasn't 662 00:42:14,876 --> 00:42:18,516 Speaker 7: something that they had studied or been even very curious 663 00:42:18,556 --> 00:42:20,516 Speaker 7: about until I started to write about it. 664 00:42:20,956 --> 00:42:21,316 Speaker 2: Yeah. 665 00:42:21,516 --> 00:42:24,516 Speaker 1: Yeah, But if the British are interested in a right 666 00:42:24,876 --> 00:42:28,636 Speaker 1: to bear arms, then why are we drawing on British 667 00:42:28,676 --> 00:42:31,916 Speaker 1: Why is the British tradition relevant to the discussion of 668 00:42:32,916 --> 00:42:34,716 Speaker 1: American individual gun rights. 669 00:42:35,436 --> 00:42:37,716 Speaker 7: I think this was a history that was lost to them. 670 00:42:37,796 --> 00:42:40,676 Speaker 7: I think modern British people have a different view of it. 671 00:42:41,356 --> 00:42:45,476 Speaker 7: They're much more dependent on the state taking care of them, 672 00:42:45,676 --> 00:42:51,836 Speaker 7: particularly since World War Two. This is earlier British history 673 00:42:51,996 --> 00:42:55,036 Speaker 7: is the history that they really were not that familiar with, 674 00:42:56,356 --> 00:42:59,276 Speaker 7: you know, they were looking at other things, and I 675 00:42:59,316 --> 00:43:02,316 Speaker 7: think that one of I guess the contribution I made 676 00:43:02,356 --> 00:43:04,356 Speaker 7: was that I was an American that looked at British 677 00:43:04,396 --> 00:43:08,156 Speaker 7: history in English history with American questions, with the things 678 00:43:08,196 --> 00:43:09,116 Speaker 7: we were interested in. 679 00:43:09,756 --> 00:43:14,476 Speaker 1: Yeah, and what is the Supreme Court? How did the 680 00:43:14,556 --> 00:43:17,476 Speaker 1: highest legal body in the land, in the landmark ruling 681 00:43:17,476 --> 00:43:20,316 Speaker 1: of New York State Pistol and Rifle Association v. Bruin 682 00:43:20,916 --> 00:43:23,956 Speaker 1: handle the fact that their hero has feet of clay. 683 00:43:24,676 --> 00:43:25,956 Speaker 3: I know, I had a summarized summer. 684 00:43:26,356 --> 00:43:31,516 Speaker 8: See, I think that is it. 685 00:43:33,356 --> 00:43:38,396 Speaker 1: Yes, I asked Patrick Charles to read me the relevant section. 686 00:43:39,116 --> 00:43:42,996 Speaker 3: To the extent that there are multiple plausible interpretations of 687 00:43:42,996 --> 00:43:45,236 Speaker 3: Sir John Knight's case, we will favor the one that 688 00:43:45,356 --> 00:43:48,076 Speaker 3: is more consistent with the Second Amendments command. 689 00:43:51,436 --> 00:43:55,036 Speaker 1: Which, in other words, there's a whole long list of 690 00:43:55,036 --> 00:43:56,756 Speaker 1: ways we can make sense of this. We're going to 691 00:43:56,796 --> 00:43:59,996 Speaker 1: pick the one we like the most. Okay, that's exactly. 692 00:44:00,756 --> 00:44:03,516 Speaker 1: That's the one that makes our life easiest. And arguing 693 00:44:03,676 --> 00:44:07,396 Speaker 1: the case we've already decided we want to argue. It's like, 694 00:44:07,796 --> 00:44:09,076 Speaker 1: it's like history is cherry. 695 00:44:09,676 --> 00:44:10,956 Speaker 3: Oh, it's so chery picked. 696 00:44:12,476 --> 00:44:16,076 Speaker 1: The Supreme Court decides to clear up the ambiguity over 697 00:44:16,116 --> 00:44:19,316 Speaker 1: the Second Amendment. Let us leave the verdict to history, 698 00:44:19,636 --> 00:44:22,996 Speaker 1: they declare. But then their hero turns out to have 699 00:44:22,996 --> 00:44:25,876 Speaker 1: feet of clay. So they shrug and go on with 700 00:44:25,916 --> 00:44:27,796 Speaker 1: the things that they had already made up their mind 701 00:44:27,836 --> 00:44:30,916 Speaker 1: to do before they tried to convince us that they 702 00:44:30,956 --> 00:44:34,716 Speaker 1: wanted to play historian and go to England and make 703 00:44:34,756 --> 00:44:38,076 Speaker 1: their pilgrimage to Saint Michael on the Hill and pretend 704 00:44:38,316 --> 00:44:40,916 Speaker 1: that the man whom they have chosen to symbolize the 705 00:44:40,956 --> 00:44:44,556 Speaker 1: grand tradition of American gun rights is something other than 706 00:44:44,596 --> 00:44:48,956 Speaker 1: a jackass. And after a far too many hours reconstructing 707 00:44:48,956 --> 00:44:52,476 Speaker 1: the history of this jackass, I realized that I had 708 00:44:52,476 --> 00:44:55,996 Speaker 1: fallen into the same trap that we've all fallen into 709 00:44:56,236 --> 00:44:59,076 Speaker 1: in his country when it comes to gun violence. We're 710 00:44:59,116 --> 00:45:04,676 Speaker 1: talking about the wrong things, telling irrelevant stories. And over 711 00:45:04,676 --> 00:45:07,956 Speaker 1: the course of the next five episodes of Revision's History, 712 00:45:08,156 --> 00:45:11,476 Speaker 1: I want to try and change that conversation. I'm going 713 00:45:11,556 --> 00:45:14,556 Speaker 1: to take you to North Carolina to shoot guns, Visit 714 00:45:14,636 --> 00:45:17,196 Speaker 1: an old man in Alabama with a crazy story to tell, 715 00:45:17,476 --> 00:45:21,996 Speaker 1: Revisit the assassination of Robert Kennedy on a one but 716 00:45:22,036 --> 00:45:26,916 Speaker 1: no more John Knight. I promise we've all had it 717 00:45:26,956 --> 00:45:34,036 Speaker 1: with John Knight. 718 00:45:35,756 --> 00:45:39,996 Speaker 8: What kind of person was he? Not sort of person 719 00:45:40,036 --> 00:45:41,636 Speaker 8: I want to have a drink with. It was a 720 00:45:41,716 --> 00:45:44,836 Speaker 8: nasty piece of work. Really, he was vindictive and spiteful. 721 00:45:44,876 --> 00:45:49,196 Speaker 8: He's a biggot, He's a trouble maker. He's obviously deliberately 722 00:45:49,236 --> 00:45:53,036 Speaker 8: going out to try and provoke trouble. In April sixteen 723 00:45:53,156 --> 00:45:56,116 Speaker 8: eighty six, when he gets his priests arrested because he's 724 00:45:56,156 --> 00:45:59,196 Speaker 8: staring things up. So yeah, not a nice piece of work. 725 00:45:59,276 --> 00:46:02,076 Speaker 8: That's my basic view of him. He's involved in the 726 00:46:02,076 --> 00:46:05,716 Speaker 8: slave traders, sugar refiner. I would hardly say that he 727 00:46:05,876 --> 00:46:09,436 Speaker 8: was the sort of hero figure the champions of American 728 00:46:09,556 --> 00:46:12,756 Speaker 8: liberty who wants to celebrate, although maybe that's not the point. 729 00:46:13,796 --> 00:46:30,676 Speaker 2: Oh. 730 00:46:14,996 --> 00:46:34,876 Speaker 1: Our revisionist history Gun series was produced by Jacob Smith, 731 00:46:35,516 --> 00:46:40,196 Speaker 1: bend A DApp Haffrey, Kiara Powell, Tally Emlin, and Liam Gistoo. 732 00:46:41,436 --> 00:46:44,836 Speaker 1: We were edited by Peter Clowney and Julia Barton. Fact 733 00:46:44,916 --> 00:46:49,276 Speaker 1: checking by Arthur Gomperts and Kashelle Williams. Original scoring by 734 00:46:49,356 --> 00:46:53,716 Speaker 1: Luis Garra, with vocals in this episode by the Magnificent 735 00:46:53,996 --> 00:46:59,796 Speaker 1: Ethan Herschenfeld. Mastering by Flon Williams. Engineering by Nina Lawrence. 736 00:47:01,156 --> 00:47:14,236 Speaker 1: I'm Malcolm Gladwins.