1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:02,920 Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray. 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff You Should Know 3 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:11,840 Speaker 1: from house Stuff Works dot Com. Hey, and welcome to 4 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: the podcast. It's called Stuff You Should Know. It's Josh 5 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:18,119 Speaker 1: and Chuck Compson in Long Beach together. Now you know 6 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: you're in trouble. What's up, Chuck? You loven sitting on 7 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 1: that one? That's good? Thanks? Thank you, Chuck? How you 8 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: doing well? Are you pretty good? I'm feeling great, actually, Chuck, 9 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 1: I am glad to be alive. Yes, so, Chuck, Yes, 10 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:37,599 Speaker 1: I think this could arguably pan out to be our 11 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: greatest podcast ever. No, I really don't think so. Chuck 12 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: did the cheek thing twice before this one. It's kind 13 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: of enough to do it a second time. And I 14 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 1: don't think we've ever had a topic that Chuck and 15 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 1: I were more intensely interested in than this one. I know. 16 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: It kind of just came out of nowhere, and it's 17 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: really well, not out of nowhere, because it's historical, but 18 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: um in our eyes, out of nowhere, which if in 19 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: our eyes? Yeah, a little foreshadowing from Charles Bryant. Nice one, Shuck, 20 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:08,959 Speaker 1: If you will get off of L O L Cats 21 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: for a second and go check your iTunes. You'll find 22 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: that the title of this one is how lobotomies work, 23 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 1: And that's what we're gonna be talking about our lobotomy. Fascinating, 24 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: it really is. Lobotomy is kind of exist in h 25 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: this little um segment of twentieth century culture, medical madness, 26 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: I guess you could say, right right, and pop culture, 27 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:33,279 Speaker 1: because you still hear it being thrown around like boys 28 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: might lobotomize me, scramble my brain. But it's kind of 29 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: exactly the way it happened. Yeah, yeah, So, Chuck, you're 30 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: a lover of great cinema, right, of course, of course 31 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: you've seen one flew over the Cuckoo's Nest, right, I 32 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:46,759 Speaker 1: have a poster, you do, Yeah, a good one, Yeah, 33 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: the one in Jack Nicholson laughing with the watch cap on. Yeah, 34 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: it's a good one. Um. So, of course you remember 35 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: the the pivotal scene of the movie where McMurphy is 36 00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: um lobotomized for being unruly, tries to kill them their 37 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: hatchet because nurse ratchet, Nurse ratchet hatchet. That was a 38 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,559 Speaker 1: Freudian slip right there. It was. She was a Hatchet. Yeah. 39 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: Um so, uh she was mean, and I'm totally with you. 40 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: It was the Freudian slip part that got me. I 41 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: had like eight jokes going in my head at once, 42 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:15,959 Speaker 1: and I was like, I can't say that. I can't 43 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:20,399 Speaker 1: say that. I can't say that. It's like the terminator. Yeah, 44 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 1: um so yeah. So he tries to kill Nurse Ratchet 45 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: because she was a terrible nurse and kind of evil, 46 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: very evil, And so he gets lobotomized and they don't 47 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 1: show the procedure. Don't worry if you ever want to 48 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: know what one was like, we're going to go into 49 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: grizzly detail in a minute. Um. And he comes out 50 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 1: just kind of this drooling imbecile, which I have to 51 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:49,359 Speaker 1: remind everybody was actually a medical term before it was imbecile, 52 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:55,920 Speaker 1: moron and idiot were all degrees of mental retardation. Isn't 53 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:58,079 Speaker 1: that weird? Yeah? Of course this is at the same 54 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,079 Speaker 1: time that people were performing the bottom those It seems 55 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: like very archaic, even though it wasn't that long ago. Yeah, well, 56 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: let's set the scene. Okay, all right, So we're talking 57 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties, and the nineteen thirties were a 58 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: terrible time to be nuts. Basically, you got locked up 59 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: in a straight jacket to keep you from eating your 60 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: own thess um or throwing it at orderlies or doing 61 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: anything really crazy. And that was about it. Um. They 62 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: had certain um, certain techniques like shock therapy. Right, what 63 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 1: do they use? Uh they still use shock therapy here 64 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: and there? Actually, so well you have like electro convulsive therapy, 65 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: and you had apparently they also used to use insulin. Okay, insulin, right, 66 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: we know how bad that is from I can't remember 67 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: one of our aging podcasts, right, Um. And they would 68 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: basically inject a hefty dose of insulin into a patient. 69 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: Um too the okay, chuck my paper wrestling was going 70 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: to get the wrath and Jerry, they know we used 71 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: crypt sheets, buddy. Um. So they inject the patient with 72 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: the hefty dose of insulin and um would basically shock 73 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: their system, possibly causing convulsions. There was another drug just 74 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: to subdue them. Hold on, I'm getting to that. This 75 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 1: is the craziest part. This is this was the grasp 76 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: that medical science had on mental illness at the time. 77 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: There's another drug called metrozol, which was a respiratory and 78 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 1: um circulatory stimulant and then hefty doses it to produce 79 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 1: shock and convulsions. So if you'll notice, all three of 80 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: these produced convulsions shock therapy. And the reason that they 81 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: did that was because there was a suspicion that there 82 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 1: is a link between epilepsy, convulsions, and mental illness and 83 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: that if you had one, you couldn't have the other. 84 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: So by producing convulsions, they thought that they were treating 85 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: mental illness. Unbelievable. Yeah, so you could have just had 86 00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: epilepsy and that that they would sit you in the 87 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 1: elect show convulsive shock therapy chair and to treat you. Yeah, 88 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: they'd stick a little paddle in your mouth and turn 89 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: on the juice to tell you what man, I like. 90 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: I sometimes look back and say, boy, the nineteen fifties, 91 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 1: that would have been cool to look back then, But 92 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 1: then you hear stories like this and you kind of 93 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: forget about the downside. Yeah. Ect is definitely one of 94 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 1: the downside of this era, right all right? So um, 95 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: another problem with this was that the mental um mental care. Wow, 96 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 1: have you had a little botomy? I had a little 97 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 1: bit of and yeah, um no, I had some metro's 98 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 1: whole earlier. I'm all jacked up. UM. The the the 99 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 1: state of mental hospitals in the US in the in 100 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: the thirties and forties was that they were overcrowded, right, 101 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: because I mean, if you can't treat anybody, really, you 102 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 1: can't treat their mental illness, which they come in there in. Yeah, right, 103 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 1: they wanted docile patients, they wanted people that didn't cause 104 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 1: trouble and really anyway that they could get there was 105 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: kind of okay at the time. And this right, and 106 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 1: this was also before drug therapy was created, So in 107 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 1: the thirties, nineteen thirty six, this new procedure comes about, right, Well, 108 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: it was the thirty five in Portugal, you're right, Yeah, 109 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: sorry about that. Yeah, that was doctor Antonio IGAs Monies 110 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: and Dr Almida Lima in Portugal performed the first lobotomies 111 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: by drilling holes into the skull on either side of 112 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 1: the prefrontal cortex and injecting alcohol and there to destroy 113 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:34,679 Speaker 1: the fibers connected. And this was actually based on um 114 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: an earlier study from nineteen thirty three by a couple 115 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: of Yale researchers who removed the prefrontal cortex is from 116 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: a pair of monkeys and the other one Binkie will say. Yeah, Um, 117 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:52,599 Speaker 1: these two monkeys had their prefrontal cortex cort texas removed, 118 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: and um, the researchers found that they could still they 119 00:06:56,279 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 1: still had intellect, but they were lacking the emotion. Led 120 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,239 Speaker 1: to violent outbursts when they didn't get their way. Zey, 121 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: by the way, I like Binky better. Um, can we 122 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: stay with Binki? Okay? So the the doctor, um, oh, 123 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: the Portugue Fulton and Carlisle, I'll know you're going back 124 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: to Portugal. Yeah. Dr Moniz saw Fulton present. Um, one 125 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: of the Yale researchers saw Fulton present his findings and 126 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: he thought, huh, my mental patients act like monkeys, you know, 127 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,559 Speaker 1: violent outbursts when they don't you know, when they see 128 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: things that aren't really there. Right, So let me get 129 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: my hands on a cadaver and see what I can see, 130 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: what I can work out with the Brian. So this early, 131 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: this early, that was called the pre frontal lobotomy, right, 132 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: started out, like you said, by drilling holes in the 133 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: school and adding alcohol. And the whole reason why chuck 134 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: the prefrontal cortex, Why the funnel loab? What's so important 135 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: about that? Well? The pre funnel lob but cortex Josh 136 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: has a number of complex functions um called executive functions 137 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:04,239 Speaker 1: as they're known as we're talking high level decision making, planning, reasoning, 138 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 1: understanding personality, it's personal expression, that right thing. So basically 139 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: your personality, the way you create things, the way you 140 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: see the world, and how you react to the world, 141 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: g emotions, this is all this is all generated here. 142 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: It's originates in the prefrontal court. And you're stabbing the 143 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: front of your head right now speaking. Uh and so 144 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: that as we all know that the brain is connected, 145 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: it's all connected together, sure, sending and receiving signals like 146 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,839 Speaker 1: like mass email and uh So, what you have here, 147 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: You've got two types of matter, gray and white matter. 148 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 1: Gray matter includes neurons and brain cells and blood vessels 149 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: and things like that. White matter is axons and nerve fibers, 150 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 1: and they connect the gray matter and carry messages with 151 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: electric impulses. So the gray matter is where these impulses 152 00:08:55,880 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: are generated. The white matter translates them or transfers them, transmits, 153 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: it transmits one of the trans uh So a lobotomy. 154 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 1: What that does is it's intended to sever the white 155 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:10,599 Speaker 1: matter between the different areas of gray matter, thus interrupting 156 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 1: the transmissions. Right. And the problem, um with dr monies 157 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 1: is technique. The early technique using alcohol is like you said, 158 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: the brains all connected, and alcohol, being a liquid is 159 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: kind of hard to keep in one place. So it 160 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 1: started to go and destroy other areas, right. But he 161 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 1: was onto something. He was onto something by destroying the 162 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: white matter, right, So instead he decided to be a 163 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 1: little more precise and he kept with the whole drilling 164 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: method actually based on an ancient um ancient method of 165 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: brain surgery called trepidation, which actually what Gosha we could 166 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: I'm gonna be in trouble here. We had a fan 167 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: right in and suggest trepidation and that's what got me 168 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: on the botomies in the first place. And I apologize. 169 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: So if you're out there listening, oh you don't remember 170 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 1: the fans, thank you, nameless fans. We love you bank 171 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:06,199 Speaker 1: or Becky um. Yeah. And actually in the article how 172 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: the botomies work, um, there's a cool relief from a 173 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: horonymous box Um painting of some early physician trepanning a 174 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: patient and he's got like a little segment of the 175 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: skull lifted off in the brain's exposed and he's just 176 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: poking around in there. Um. But okay, so he's still 177 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 1: dr Monis is still using the drilling method, but now 178 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: he's inserting instruments in there. He inserted this one that 179 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: sounded like, um, it's a handle with a little loopy 180 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: wire that comes out. But yes, so when you when 181 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 1: you push it, when you push down the back of it, 182 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: the loop extends out and then you can pull it 183 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: in and just basically removed hunks of prefrontal cortex, right, 184 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: and that's exactly what hopefully matter. Yeah, you would say, um, 185 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: and it was successful. Well yeah, to too again to 186 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,199 Speaker 1: very degrees and maybe not again because I think that's 187 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: the first time we've said that. But yeah, the lobotomy 188 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: was successful to varying degrees, vary varying degrees. But there 189 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: was this guy who went and saw, um, dr Monies 190 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 1: perform one of these. Yeah, this work gets good. And 191 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: this guy was named Dr Walter Freeman. And for probably 192 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:25,319 Speaker 1: about what fifty thousand people, uh in the U s Alone, 193 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: this meeting between these two men was the worst thing 194 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 1: that ever happened in the history of humanity, because that's 195 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: about how many people were lobotomized between for about over 196 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: about a seven year period in the US. Was it 197 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: just seven years? Okay? So then there was many many 198 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 1: more actually, um, but yeah, the Dr Walter Freeman became 199 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 1: an immediate UM evangelists. He was called for Lobotomyes. Um. 200 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: He he tried monies as technique with a with a 201 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 1: partner um and did it successfully for a while. But 202 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:08,320 Speaker 1: the problem is it was still surgery. It required a 203 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 1: surgeon to do it um operating room. Right. If Freeman 204 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: was actually not a neurosurgeon, he was a neurologist, required anesthetic. Yeah, 205 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: so there there were some some drawbacks to it in 206 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 1: Freeman's of pain, right, expense being one of them. Time 207 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: and resources. So he created something that was a lot handier, 208 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 1: a lot easier, and a lot quicker. And that is 209 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: what we call the transorbital or ice pick lobotomy, right, 210 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: Can I say that this is he determined that if 211 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: you took something which is technically called an orbito class 212 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: but it really looks sort of like an ice pick. 213 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: You said it yesterday on our web test, Uh, call 214 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: it arose by any other name exactly. So you put 215 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:55,679 Speaker 1: this ice pick over over the eyeball but under the 216 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: bone there what's that called between the eyeball and the eyelid, 217 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: but ill on the eye until the back of the 218 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: orbital bone. Right, So, once you get to the back 219 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: of the orble orbital bone, there's a little resistance there 220 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: because it's bone, and so enter a little silver hammer 221 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: and so he just pinks on that thing until it 222 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: cracks through. And then he's got a pretty clean passageway 223 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,199 Speaker 1: to the frontal cortex. And so you've got an ice 224 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:24,319 Speaker 1: pick sticking out of your eye. He uh, he scrambles 225 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: it up a little bit once it's in there, and 226 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 1: then he does the same thing on the other side, 227 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,319 Speaker 1: and ten minutes later if you're lobotomized, literally, so he 228 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 1: do both sides right right. Um, he got kind of 229 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: good at this, Yeah, Dr Freeman got really I guess 230 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: you could say good at this, or at least very fast. Um. 231 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: In one two week period in West Virginia, he performed 232 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: lobotomy is on two people, and in one day he 233 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 1: performed lobotomies on twenty five patients right one day and 234 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: one day. So he's just basically bringing him in and 235 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: sending him out. He's exactly doing that. Actually read an 236 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 1: interview with one of his assistants at the time, and 237 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 1: he said he would literally not take breaks. As the 238 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 1: patient left, another one would be brought in ten minutes later. Boom. 239 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: And I don't think we mentioned yet he before he 240 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: does this, he doesn't use anesthetic. He knocks him out 241 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: with electro shock, right, So it's making use of too 242 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: extremely primitive and violent techniques right time. And the result was, 243 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: like we said, varied. I mean, it ranged anywhere from 244 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: people being satisfied and you know, seemingly successful, like a 245 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: highly emotional people suicidal all of a sudden, being more 246 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: docile and not so worried to uh to death, and 247 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: people rendered vegetables literally. So yeah, well the map. Dr 248 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: Freeman actually referred to lobotomyes um, informally as soul surgery. Yeah. 249 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: I hate that. The reason why is because he was 250 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: basically removing what kind of what makes us human. People 251 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: could still function under a successful lobotomy. People could still function, 252 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: they could still talk, but they weren't They weren't doing anything, 253 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: they weren't bringing anything to the table. There was no 254 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: reason for them to exist so much anymore for the 255 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: personality surgery exactly right, um and uh he would Uh 256 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: he did it, um again so fast, it's so so often. 257 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: And he had a touch of a showman to him 258 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: that he basically did. He had a lobotomobile in which 259 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: he performed demonstrations. Right. He toured the country all over 260 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: the place. I think he ended up doing His estimates 261 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: run from two thousand to five thousand between nineteen six 262 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: and nineteen sixty seven, transorbital lobotomies UM in twenty three 263 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: states in the US. Right, he performed with both hands. 264 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: He would stick the ice picks in with both hands 265 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: at once to add a little flare showmanship. Yeah, so 266 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: he was basically performing shows, lobotomy shows. Um. And not 267 00:15:55,960 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: everybody reacted well to these. Um. There's season surgeons who 268 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: had seen tons of gore and blood and horrible things 269 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: in their lifetimes. Um would vomit watching these things. Some 270 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: had to leave. Um. There was a nurse whose account 271 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: I read of watching a lobotomy said, uh, the when 272 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: he moved the ice picks back and forth, it made 273 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: the sound of tearing cloth. Um. Later on in the USSR, 274 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: which actually banned lobotomies, and I think nineteen is embarrassing. Yeah, well, 275 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: fourteen years before we did right. Yeah. Um. A physician 276 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: named Nikolai or Serinsky, thanks dusky, um he called. He 277 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 1: said that lobotomies violate the principles of humanity and change 278 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: an insane person into an idiot. Again remember a medical 279 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: tournament at the time. Um, So there, I imagine that 280 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: there was something that affected you. Were you human being, 281 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: like a real human being seeing this this rough, violent, 282 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 1: um misguided or unguided procedure being performed, that it would 283 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:16,879 Speaker 1: affect you in some way, like some very primal party 284 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 1: of you would say, that's not supposed to happen. Plus, 285 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 1: there was no official scientific basis for this. It was basically, hey, 286 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 1: look at the result in some cases. That is what 287 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 1: they were kind of basing this whole thing on. And also, 288 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 1: as we were saying about Freeman being a showman and 289 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,200 Speaker 1: doing it so fast, there was one visit to a 290 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 1: mental institution in Iowa. I don't remember what year it was, um, 291 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 1: but Freeman killed three people in one visit, and one 292 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: of the people this is so awful. Um. He was 293 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: doing his little show off thing with the two picks 294 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 1: at once, instead of as his own procedure dictated one 295 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: and then the other side. He was doing two picks 296 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: at once. So the patients on the table um with 297 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 1: two ice pick sticking out of his eyes, and Freeman says, 298 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: I'm going to take a photo of this, steps back 299 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:07,159 Speaker 1: to take a photo. One of the ice pick slips 300 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 1: and kills the patient instantly. So apparently Freeman was said 301 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: to have basically just packed up right then and moved 302 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 1: on to the next place without missing a bead or staying. Geez, 303 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: that's packed up the lobotomobile. Yeah, hit the you know 304 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: one person he lobotomized, Josh, I know you do. He 305 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 1: lobotomized John F. Kennedy's sister, Rosemary. Dr Freeman did in Uh. 306 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: Rosemary was twenty three years old and uh, early on 307 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: her childhood she was shy and easy going, they say, 308 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: but as a teenager, shocker, she became rebellious and moody, 309 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: which and that's what struck me in a lot of 310 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 1: these cases is so many of them we're just normal 311 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 1: human emotions, like anything from postpartum depression to you know, 312 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: an overactive child. You know, it's just unbelievable. So she 313 00:18:54,760 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 1: was lobotomized and afterward was rendered basically she couldn't speak, 314 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: She had the mental capacity of an infant couldn't control 315 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: or bodily functions, and the Kennedy family basically from that 316 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: point on said that she Ah was mentally retarded, which 317 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 1: they claimed that she may have been before, but who knows. 318 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 1: You want to talk about another guy, Howie, Chuck and 319 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,400 Speaker 1: I have a shared hero. He is an indomitable three 320 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: fifty pounds six ft three bus driver who has this gentle, 321 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: tender personality. And his name is Howard Dully. And at 322 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 1: the age of twelve, Howard Dully met Dr Freeman under 323 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 1: unfortunate circumstances, meaning Dr Freeman had a couple of ice 324 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: picks on him when they met, and um, Howard ended 325 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: up under Freeman's care because of his stepmother, right, Chuck, Yeah, 326 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: he It was the kind of the classic story the 327 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,640 Speaker 1: father gets remarried to a stepmother who is not very 328 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: patient and understanding with her son. That sounded like you, 329 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: It sound like he may have been a little ryanbunctious, 330 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: but what twelve year old boy isn't. And I think 331 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 1: you have some good notes, actual notes. Yeah, well in 332 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: Freeman's notes that Dully turned up later, and we should say, 333 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: how are Dully created this great radio piece that's an MPR. 334 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 1: You can actually find um by typing in my lobotomy 335 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 1: and Google. I think it's the first thing that comes up. 336 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: It's one of the most amazing things you've ever heard, 337 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: where he just goes and retraces the steps of his 338 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,640 Speaker 1: lobotomy that he got when he was twelve and tries 339 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:29,919 Speaker 1: to get to the bottom of what happened. We typically 340 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,120 Speaker 1: don't recommend people go listen to other things that it's 341 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: not us. But that's how good it is, right, yeah, exactly, 342 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: it is that good. Uh, it's way better than I 343 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: actually um. But he finds the Dr. Freeman's notes on 344 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 1: his case and apparently a stepmother pled her case to 345 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 1: get him lobotomized by pointing out that he day dreams 346 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 1: a lot, and when you ask him what he's daydreaming about, 347 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: he says, I don't know. Uh, he doesn't want to 348 00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: go to bed, and when he does he sleeps well. 349 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: In my personal favorite, he turns on the lights in 350 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: rooms when there's broad daylight streaming in unbelievable. I know 351 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,360 Speaker 1: that kid deserves the lobotomy, but one of the things 352 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 1: that I think one of the reasons why you and 353 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: I both look up to Howard Dolly was because he 354 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: has wondered his whole life how different would he be? 355 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,880 Speaker 1: Like I lived hard and fast as a younger man, 356 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: right right? Yeah, actually way way harder and faster. Um So, 357 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 1: but I've I've often wondered, you know, how much sharper 358 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: would I be had I not lived like that? But 359 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: this is my own doing. It was my own choosing. 360 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 1: Howard Dolly had to think that same thing, like is 361 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 1: there something wrong with me? Is there a part of 362 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: me missing? Through no choice or fault of his own? 363 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 1: We should also say that, um, when Howard's stepmother found 364 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: that he was not a vegetable, she just got him 365 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: out of the house and he became a ward of 366 00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: the state. So he went all around lady so um 367 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,199 Speaker 1: again in the end he finds, you know, there there 368 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 1: really isn't something wrong within the He's a pretty terrific 369 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,119 Speaker 1: person as as as it turned out, lobotomy or not. 370 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: It took him a long time though, I mean he 371 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 1: battled addiction and various forms of mental illness his whole 372 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: life after this, and uh, I think going this the 373 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:22,479 Speaker 1: special that air and he wrote a book and went 374 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 1: and talked to his father. After forty years. He actually 375 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,439 Speaker 1: finally spoke to his dad about it, and that seems 376 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:29,119 Speaker 1: to have been the thing to get him over the 377 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 1: edge to not feeling like a freak anymore, as he 378 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: called it. Yeah, you can actually hear him working it 379 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: out in my lobotomy. Yeah, a big, deep voice. Yeah, 380 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 1: he sounds kind of like Sam not Sam Shepherdson. What's 381 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 1: the guy? Uh, big lebowski, Sam Elliott? Sam Elliott? Yeah, 382 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:49,400 Speaker 1: that's what are you reminded me of the dude. Yeah. 383 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 1: He also had that big mustache too, sort of like 384 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: Sam Ello, that handlebar biker mustache. So, Chuck, whatever happened 385 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: to Lobotomy's why where? Why did they go the way 386 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: of the dinosaur? Well? Uh, A couple of reasons. I mean, one, 387 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: there was a lot of gaining steam with the criticism 388 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 1: of it because they found that they were lobotomizing criminals. 389 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: They were lobotomizing soldiers from World War Two because criminals 390 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: against their will sometimes right, But they lobotomized soldiers because 391 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 1: hospitals were overcrowded veterans unbelievable, and so that that was 392 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 1: kind of gaining steam. And then the introduction of uh 393 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:35,639 Speaker 1: thorizine basically everything um I believe that somebody said that 394 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: thorzine was to the treatment of schizophrenia, that insulin, I'm sorry, 395 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:46,120 Speaker 1: that penicillin was to the treatment of infectious diseases, which 396 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 1: is a pretty big comparison. So thorzine was developed in 397 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty and as it began to to fall into 398 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 1: widespread use, um lobotomy kind of fell out of widespread use. 399 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 1: Dr Freeman himself he uh, he had one last one, 400 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,879 Speaker 1: one last lobotomy in nineteen sixty seven, right, yeah, he 401 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: killed a woman with the brain hemorrhage after the third try. 402 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: I think this is her third lobotomy, and uh, she 403 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,680 Speaker 1: wasn't just you know, some mental patient in Iowa. This 404 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: is a housewife. And when she died of I believe 405 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 1: of hemorrhage after the procedure, that third procedure, that was it. 406 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,360 Speaker 1: He was banned from surgery, performing any kind of surgery 407 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 1: from that that point on, and actually spent the rest 408 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: of his days until he died in nineteen seventy two, 409 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: traveling the country in a camper. If it was his lobottomobile, 410 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 1: I don't know. He wasn't pitching it. He was actually 411 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 1: going around trying to um find he was visiting old 412 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: patients to prove that he had done good. And he 413 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: had done some good in a couple of cases, in 414 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 1: several cases, I imagined. His first one was a woman 415 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:01,640 Speaker 1: I can't remember her first name, but it was ian 416 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 1: Esco and she, uh, she was violently suicidal, as described 417 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: by her daughter, and afterwards she went on to to 418 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: live a happy, fulfilled life. Yeah. But you know, every 419 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: every successful case I read about, they would say things 420 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: like they weren't violently suicidal anymore, and they were just, 421 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 1: you know, kind of happy, but it still seemed to 422 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: be that lights wrong. But no one's home thing like 423 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: the couple, Yeah, the married couple was the husband had 424 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:32,880 Speaker 1: his wife lo bottom eyes because she was so emotional 425 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 1: and she was suicidal. Yeah, and she says that she's 426 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: happy as a clam, and he was satisfied. He said 427 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: that she came home and she never calls any more 428 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: trouble and she was just happy and she could still yeah, 429 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 1: she could still cook and clean and do all the 430 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 1: things she could do before. And she agreed, I just 431 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 1: haven't been worried about things since then. And she was 432 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 1: in her eighties. But you know, you read that emotions 433 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: are normal, mood swings are normal. It's h agreed, but 434 00:25:57,800 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 1: I do I do think that there is a certain 435 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: threshold and if you're violently suicidal, you know, maybe a 436 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,440 Speaker 1: lobotomy was a better option. Yeah, but I also want 437 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 1: to know what the criteria for all this was. Back 438 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: then there wasn't any so yeah, so put that in 439 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,880 Speaker 1: your pipe. And but one of the most unsettling things, 440 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,239 Speaker 1: one of the most unsettling things that I found from 441 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: this article is that lobotomies are still performed today in England. Right, 442 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,440 Speaker 1: the UK is one of a few countries UM where 443 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 1: it's it's no longer called the botomies because lobotomy is 444 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 1: such a horrible stigma attached to it for good reason. 445 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: Neurosurgery for a mental disorder and m D and today 446 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: apparently they use m r s as guides to be 447 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: more precise. But pretty much this type of surgery, psychosurgery 448 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: as it's called UM is, it's pretty much the same thing. 449 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:53,719 Speaker 1: It's destroying white matter connections and you're removing people's emotional cells. Right. 450 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 1: I mean, there may be something too to that, but 451 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 1: certainly it was so non specific and non technical to 452 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: jam Ice picks and and just blindly move them back 453 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 1: and forth. Said, no, wonder that was all kinds of results. So, Chuck, 454 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:11,920 Speaker 1: we are both kind of nuts. And I'm really glad 455 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 1: it's not like ninety. Yeah, my wife Emily and I 456 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 1: would both be on the the lobotomy table. I think 457 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 1: I drive you to see Freeman. Thanks, sure, I appreciate that. Yeah, 458 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,200 Speaker 1: well that's it. That's it for lobotomies, buddy. Yeah. I 459 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 1: encourage people to go out and listen to Howard Dully's 460 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: uh radio show there. It's really great. Hopefully you guys 461 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: enjoyed this one. You can read all about lobotomies on 462 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,239 Speaker 1: how Stuff Works dot com. You know what to do, uh, 463 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:46,400 Speaker 1: you know, handy search bar, etcetera. Uh, And Chuck, let's 464 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,959 Speaker 1: u let's talk some audible stuff. So our sponsor, audible 465 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: dot com hit it. Okay, So if everyone goes to www. 466 00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: Dot audible podcast dot com slash stuff and sign up 467 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: to get one free download from audible dot COM's fifty 468 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: thousand plus titles of audio books, stand up comedy, spoken 469 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 1: word speeches, pretty much anything you can listen to is 470 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,639 Speaker 1: right there. And I was on their browsing just this 471 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: morning and I found one of my all time favorite 472 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 1: books by Charles man Good One great one man runs 473 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 1: around um the America's basically two archaeological sites and gets 474 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: the scoop on the most recent findings and finds that 475 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: there were way more people in the America's before Columbus 476 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: showed up than we realized. Uh and yeah, there's a 477 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: lag between the arrival of Columbus uh to Hispaniola and 478 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: the the second wave that followed within the next fifty years. 479 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 1: The second wave found that this, you know, that was 480 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: Virgin Territory. There's almost no one there. Turns out it's 481 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 1: because about a hundred million people died of smallpox from 482 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: Columbus's first arrival between then and the second wave. It's fascinating, 483 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: right there. You just did one. Well, maybe we'll do 484 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: a bigger subed on it, a bigger Yeah. What about 485 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: you you've been on? Yeah, I'm gonna recommend uh just quickly. 486 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 1: Stephen Colbert of the Colbert Rapport. Oh, I saw his portrait, 487 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 1: his National Gallery Portrait a Stithonia recently. It was awesome 488 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 1: with this familiar scowl. Yeah. I love that guy. So yeah, 489 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: he has a very popular book that he reads himself 490 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 1: called I'm an American and so can you. And that's 491 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 1: all I need to say about that. It's hysterical. Nice check. 492 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 1: So you can get either one of those titles for 493 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 1: free by going to www. Dot audible podcast dot com 494 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 1: slash stuff and signing up and that is audible right there, Baby, 495 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 1: let's do Let's do it, Josh. I'm just gonna call this. 496 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: We got a lot of great feedback for the high 497 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: Food toost Corn Serup. Yeah, so much so we're gonna 498 00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: have probably like three podcasts in a row. We're gonna 499 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 1: be and some of that mail, I don't know what 500 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 1: it is. We should I can bring back Haikus, all right. 501 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: So I'm just gonna call it intelligent listener mail because 502 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: Max is a smart guy, and I like these most 503 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: of all. I'm a graduating senior in the Business College, 504 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: but when I'm not in class or listening to podcast, 505 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: I almost always enjoy listening to philosophy. It's more or 506 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: less my passion. More specifically, I'm interested in world religion, 507 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: medical metaphysical theory, and man's relationship to nature in the universe. 508 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: So this guy is obviously smarter than we are to 509 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:34,959 Speaker 1: say that fruit dose, corn serve, or any other man 510 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: made chemical compound does not occur naturally. You're speaking with 511 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: the basic assumption that man is something different than nature. Unfortunately, 512 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 1: for those who can find themselves above nature and importance 513 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 1: or authority, this is not the case. It's our Western 514 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: culture and religion that strengthens this point of view. Man 515 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 1: didn't PLoP into nature as a separate and flawed phenomenon 516 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 1: in a stupid natural universe. Man came out of nature. 517 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: Man is nature. Man is the universe. To borrow a 518 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 1: quote from my favorite philosopher Alan Watts, and you're seeing, 519 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: you're hearing, you're talking, you're thinking, you're moving. You express 520 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: that which it is which moves the sun and other stars. 521 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: So to perceive yourself as something different is only an 522 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: inability to identify yourself with the cosmos. So Josh Man's 523 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: manipulation of compounds is really the world's manipulation of itself, 524 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 1: or perhaps the universe manipulating itself. And that is certainly 525 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 1: a natural occurrence. Boom, And that is what happens when 526 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: I off handedly say something is man made? Nice? Well, 527 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: what's the guy's name? Max? And I think philosophy too, 528 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 1: so I thought, what's gonna call? We dig you, Max, 529 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: and we really dig anybody who sends us something, especially 530 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: if it's as intelligent as that. Uh. If you want 531 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: to show off your ginormous brain, send us an email 532 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 1: to Stuff Podcast at how stuff works dot com. For 533 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics at how 534 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: staff works dot com. H brought to you by the 535 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 1: reinvented two thousand twelve Camry. It's ready, are you