1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. This episode contains 2 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: discussion of physical abuse, animal abuse, and suicidal ideation. Listener 3 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: discretion is advised. 4 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 2: To have children and not be prepared for the possibility 5 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 2: of schizophrenia. Would be irresponsible, But that's not a reason 6 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 2: not to have them if I want them. What if 7 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 2: my grandmother had opted not to have my mother? What 8 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 2: if my mother had opted not to have me. You 9 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 2: become a mother, and that's who you are. My mother 10 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 2: used to say to me. Would she have been better 11 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 2: off she hadn't become a mother? If not, who would 12 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:40,199 Speaker 2: she have become? 13 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 1: That's Sarah LaBrie, la based TV writer, producer, teacher, and 14 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 1: author of the recent memoir No One Gets to Fall Apart. 15 00:00:52,960 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: Sarah's is a story of inheritance, inherited trauma, genetic history, violence, brilliant, 16 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: and ultimately, it's a story of triumph, the triumph of creativity, seeking, searching, persevering, 17 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: and of love. I'm Danny Shapiro and this is family Secrets, 18 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: the secrets that are kept from us, the secrets we 19 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: keep from others, and the secrets we keep from ourselves. 20 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 2: I was born in Oakland, and I lived there with 21 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 2: my mom and dad and about a million cousins until 22 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 2: maybe I was one or two, and then my parents 23 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 2: divorced and my mom brought me back to Houston, and 24 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 2: then I was raised by her and my grandmother and 25 00:01:55,160 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 2: my aunt in Texas. And this completely one hundred percent 26 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 2: black Mottle class neighborhood. Everybody get true to black Ginnis 27 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 2: with black. My doctor was black. That was just the 28 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 2: world I knew. I was all matriarchal and women led. 29 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:17,359 Speaker 2: And then when I was about seven, I got to 30 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 2: a private school which was just the opposite of everything 31 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 2: i'd ever no, never understood. It was also in Houston, 32 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 2: and a neighborhood called for Brookes, which was like Beberly 33 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 2: Hells of Hosted and you know, all the children of 34 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 2: Houston Royalty went there, and I had no idea that 35 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 2: world even existed and that crossover was. It was interesting 36 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 2: for me because I was I was just child. But 37 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 2: I think it was really hard on my mom. I 38 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 2: think it was frustrating for girl, as a single mom 39 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 2: who had me, which was twenty, to suddenly see this 40 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,920 Speaker 2: world of privilege that she hadn't had access to. That 41 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 2: she worried that I would never have real access to 42 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 2: and I think that frustration exacerbated. It's an angerish she said, 43 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 2: she already had. Obviously some frustrations she already had, and 44 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 2: it means my childhood difficult. 45 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,079 Speaker 1: Sarah lives with her mom and grandmother in Third Ward, 46 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 1: a deeply rooted African American community in Houston, but when 47 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: it's time for her to go to school, she is 48 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: sent to Saint John's in River Oaks, a private school 49 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: fifteen minutes and a world away. 50 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 2: My grandmother was actually a pretty successful business woman in 51 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 2: Third Ward. It's interesting. She was a housing lawyer. She 52 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 2: worked for the city in the seventies, and she started 53 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 2: her own all female law firm with all black female 54 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 2: lawyers from her law school. And she'd done really well 55 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 2: for herself. And by the time I was born, she 56 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 2: had left her practice. She'd actually watched her mother die 57 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 2: of breast cancer and had gone back to school and 58 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 2: started a natural health company. This was kinda back in 59 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 2: the eighties when I was really doing that, And so 60 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 2: she became kind of a de facto not doctor, but 61 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 2: kind of paramedical professional for that neighborhood. And so because 62 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 2: of that, she had access to certain things in certain worlds. 63 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 2: So She knew about Saint John's and she understood the 64 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 2: opportunities that would come from going to a school like that, 65 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 2: and she made sure that I got on the wait list. 66 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 2: She took me through the testing to get in in 67 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 2: first grade, and I think she just thought it was 68 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 2: safer and it was just a better bet for my future. 69 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 2: And my mom did not agree at all and didn't 70 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 2: want me to go there, and it consed a lot 71 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 2: of difficulty between the two of them. 72 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: Tell me about your mom from your childhood, like from 73 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: that time, what was your experience of her and you know, 74 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: this matriarchal society in your childhood, what did you pick 75 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: up on before age seven? What was your sense of things? 76 00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 2: My mom, she was so beautiful and so beloved, and 77 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 2: she had grown up in Houston, in this community. My 78 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,719 Speaker 2: whole family knew everybody, and I think that's something that 79 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 2: can sometimes be easy to forget. I think, you know, 80 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 2: we were, yes, we we we're a black family, but 81 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 2: it wasn't like she was constantly worried about racism or 82 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 2: being victimized. And same with my grandmother, like just everyone 83 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 2: we knew was black. I cannot stress not enough. And 84 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 2: that was the world that she wanted me to live 85 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 2: in too. There's something about sort of how strong when 86 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 2: those bonds are, and how comfortable she felt having gone 87 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 2: to the high school she went to where you know 88 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:41,359 Speaker 2: a lot of black artists have come out of that 89 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 2: well and hopeful shuvershot as from their maybe Alvin Aley, 90 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 2: just like she felt really proud of that history. And ye, 91 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 2: she was beautiful, she was smart, but she had a darkness. 92 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 2: I found out more about a since got worse as 93 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 2: I got older. She was reactive. She couldn't really handle 94 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 2: all lot of emotional stress. I think having me so young, 95 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:07,239 Speaker 2: and then she dropped out of college and moved home 96 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 2: so that my grandmother could help take care of me, 97 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 2: and she wanted to be a writer, and suddenly just 98 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 2: everything had changed for her. And I you know, I 99 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 2: know that she loved me. I don't presented me, but 100 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 2: I do you think my existence represented kind of a 101 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 2: division and her future and the potential for what her 102 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 2: life could have been. And I don't know how subconscious 103 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 2: so that was for her, how aware of it was 104 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 2: she was. But I think things got hard for her 105 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:32,919 Speaker 2: after she gave birth to me and moved home. 106 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 1: And your father was he in the picture at all. 107 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 2: So she had left Houston to go to college. She 108 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 2: ended up going to community college in the Bay Area, 109 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 2: and then she transferred to San Francisco State and that's 110 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:50,839 Speaker 2: where she met my dad. And he was from a 111 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 2: big Catholic family in Oakland, and you know, he's a 112 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 2: sweet guy, but he's not super interested in being a 113 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 2: responsible father. And the couple different versions of the story, 114 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 2: but from what I understand, he just was not pulling 115 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 2: his weight and was making it very difficult for her 116 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 2: and their kids. At this point, she was twenty one, 117 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 2: that's how old he was when they got married, and 118 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 2: I think she tried to make a go of it 119 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 2: for maybe a year or so, and eventually my mom's 120 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 2: mom actually came and got my mom at NY and 121 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 2: he left my dad behind. You know, my dad now 122 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 2: says he was so devastated, but he knows who knows 123 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 2: that's true. And he came and he visited a little 124 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 2: when I was a kid, but my mom was very 125 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 2: angry with him. And I think when my mom was angry, 126 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 2: it was really scary, and I got tired of big 127 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 2: threat did stop making an effort. He wasn't really in 128 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 2: the picture. I think maybe we would talk a couple 129 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 2: of tens a year, and that's why I said the case. 130 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: So, when you're seven, you go to this new school 131 00:07:55,800 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: that's very different, just an entirely different world from the 132 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: world that you had grown up in up until that point. 133 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 1: Would you say that's around the time that your mother's 134 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: rage started really emerging toward you, or was it something 135 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: that you had experienced prior to making that shift that 136 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: was so threatening for her? 137 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 2: Honestly, I think towards me it came even later. It 138 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 2: was only at this point that I started and now 139 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 2: in retrospect so that I can see that there was 140 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 2: a point in second grade where she thought that a 141 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,679 Speaker 2: teacher was being racist towards me, And it's entirely possible 142 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 2: that she was. I don't know. I was one of 143 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 2: two black students in my grade, one of maybe ten 144 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 2: in the whole school of however many, you know, twelve 145 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 2: hundred people, Keithrie tells hir at school. I remember her, 146 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 2: you know, just ranting and calling for racist. But then 147 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 2: she also kind of set me down and was like, well, 148 00:08:57,400 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 2: this woman's going to be racist towards you. I'm going 149 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 2: to make or she has nothing She complained about with you. 150 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 2: And the problem I think is that I was getting 151 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 2: vargas on a spelling test, even though my spelling was perfect, 152 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 2: but I was getting handwriting docked, and so she made 153 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 2: me sit down and learn how to have perfect handwriting, 154 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 2: you know, out of kind of rage at this teacher. 155 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 2: So it was almost like a constructive rage or like 156 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:22,959 Speaker 2: a spite, like you are going to win in spite 157 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 2: of these people. Another time, I remember we were at 158 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 2: a library and I was she was studying. A woman 159 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 2: at a table over shushed me. I remember my mom 160 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,319 Speaker 2: lepped across the table. I screamed at this one. I 161 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 2: called her names, insulted her and for shushing me. And 162 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 2: that was sort of a story in my family about oh, 163 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 2: you know, she's such a mama bear. But it was 164 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 2: also like deeply antisocial behavior. I mean, even though it's sweet, 165 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 2: I think it was a symptom of what was to come. 166 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: Did you recognize that as a child, and I asked 167 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: this as the daughter of a very angry mother myself, 168 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: like this feeling, you know that it's not usual, that 169 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: it's not you know that not everybody experiences this, or 170 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: did you have that feeling as a child the most 171 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: more common feeling that kids have that whatever's going on 172 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: in their little universe is normal, that everybody must be 173 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: experiencing this because it's the only world, you know. 174 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 2: Absolutely yeah, I had no idea that everyone's mom wasn't 175 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 2: like this. I don't think it was until he was 176 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,959 Speaker 2: a teenager and I remember a friend saying, oh, you know, 177 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 2: I got I went and got my nails done with 178 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 2: my mom and we played tennis. So I was like, 179 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,439 Speaker 2: you got your nails down, you played tennis with your mom. 180 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,680 Speaker 2: What are you talking. I mean, it is possible to 181 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 2: have sort of a civil relationship with one's mom, as 182 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 2: I think is often the case with what I think 183 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:46,559 Speaker 2: was ongoing a sporderline personality disorder generally. When I started 184 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 2: to pull away from her so fifth grade, sixth grade, eleven, twelve, thirteen, 185 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 2: and I started to have my own friends, my own life, 186 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 2: that was when she became much more, much more physically abusive, 187 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 2: repeating me over the tiniest things like constantly ranting and 188 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 2: yelling over nothing, always on the drive to school, which 189 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,199 Speaker 2: is why I think this school was such a trigger 190 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 2: for her. And then I think the other thing was 191 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:16,079 Speaker 2: my grandmother bought us this house because for my grandmother 192 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 2: was very important that I feel comfortable at Saint John's, 193 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 2: that I feel like, you know, the other kids didn't 194 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 2: have stuff that I couldn't have, even though they were 195 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,679 Speaker 2: exponentially wealthiard than we were. And so she bought us 196 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:29,199 Speaker 2: a house and the upscale part for board, you know, 197 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 2: where all the black doctors and lawyers lived. And so 198 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 2: suddenly my mom, who was making a nurse's salary, which 199 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,680 Speaker 2: was not very high at that time for her, was 200 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 2: living in this large, you know, three bedroom house with 201 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 2: the sunroom, herbid floors, air, separate garage, laund room, huge backyard. 202 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 2: And she didn't want that. She'd never wanted these trappings 203 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 2: as well. She thought they were artificial. And she looked 204 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 2: at that house and I think she saw me. Maybe 205 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 2: around the time I was eleven, we were silly, constantly 206 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 2: at war, and it just take our stores. 207 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: And then it got still worse. In these new surroundings, 208 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: Sarah has first won than two, then three dogs. They 209 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 1: are her companions, they're her friends. Then something happens that 210 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: is so traumatic that it changes everything. 211 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 2: So this was the worst thing that had ever happened 212 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 2: to me. For a very long time, I had these dogs. 213 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 2: You know, think about Texas in the nineties. I think 214 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 2: the relationship to dogs that people had in general was 215 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 2: very different than it is now. And I had a 216 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 2: dog that a family friend had found abandoned, and because 217 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,839 Speaker 2: we had a backyard, my grandmother just said, here, you guys, 218 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 2: take this dog at midnight. I loved him so much 219 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 2: as white mutt. And then my grandmother, for some reason, 220 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 2: bought me an akc registered Now you know, I loved 221 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 2: his dog so much. And then my mom, maybe out 222 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 2: of rivalry with my grandmother or something, I don't know, 223 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 2: got me another Schnauzer puppy I don't I don't know why. 224 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 2: So suddenly I had three dogs. I was maybe eleven 225 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 2: years old. My mom had no one testing taking care 226 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 2: of these dogs, and they barked a lot at night, 227 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 2: and the neighbors would complain, and you know, I did 228 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 2: what I could, but I got a certain point. My 229 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 2: mom and I got to one of our mini fights, 230 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 2: and I the dogs were out of food and I 231 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 2: wanted her to pick them up. She just had it out. 232 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 2: I want her to grab some on the way home. 233 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 2: She got mad at me for asking, and she yelled 234 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 2: at me in this really cruel way, like she often did. 235 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:38,319 Speaker 2: I really hurt my feelings. I threw I can of 236 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 2: bugspray or something at my bedroom window, and I broke it. 237 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:44,719 Speaker 2: I was so scared because I knew that I was 238 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 2: going to get so much trouble. And so I wrote 239 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 2: a letter explaining what I had done and apologizing so 240 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 2: she wouldn't find it be surprised. And I put it 241 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 2: at the bottom of the stairs so she'd find it 242 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 2: as her child. And she got home and she read it, 243 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 2: she even saying, and she just like came up in 244 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 2: the car. She got all three dogs. But then in 245 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:04,959 Speaker 2: the car she had this land Cruiser suv that my 246 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 2: grandmother had bought for her, and drove to a parking 247 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 2: lot like a pet coke off the side of the highway. 248 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 2: The head store was closed and where she thought was 249 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:16,959 Speaker 2: gonna happen, and she pulled into the parking lot, opened 250 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 2: the doors and just shoved the dogs out into the 251 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 2: parking lot and drove off with me still in the 252 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 2: car and the dog. She's behind us up on the highway, 253 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 2: and then you know saw me, I screaming, I didn't 254 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 2: I have no idea that she was going to do that. 255 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 2: And I didn't know how to stop it. And then 256 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 2: when I got home, she sent me over the side 257 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 2: of the bathtob and beat me with a belt, which 258 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 2: was something that she often did. But yeah, I didn't 259 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 2: know why she was doing any of this at the time. 260 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 2: I just thought that I was just so horrible that 261 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 2: I deserved this. And I remember going to bed and 262 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 2: the windows still being broken, and there were june bugs 263 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 2: at this time of year in Houston, could hear, and 264 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 2: I was so scared. They're as terrified of them, and 265 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 2: they're going to fly in through the window. And I 266 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 2: stayed up all night staring at that that whole glass, 267 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 2: the window. And after that I pretty much stopped talking 268 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 2: to my mom for a long time, and I just 269 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 2: I think that was when I understood, oh, Okay, something 270 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 2: is seriously broken here. That's maybe bigger than I knew before. 271 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. When eighth grade rolls around, Sarah 272 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: starts emailing colleges. Yes, these emails are way premature, but 273 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: she's hatching an escape plan and the process needs to 274 00:15:55,920 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: start early. The ground must be laid to get out. 275 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 2: I think I understood that because of the opportunities provided 276 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 2: for me by the school. I had a lot more 277 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 2: access to the larger world than maybe somebody had gone 278 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 2: to a different school would. And I was like, how 279 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 2: do I just make sure that I get into the 280 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 2: best college I possibly can and then never have to 281 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 2: come back here. I can just leave and never come 282 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 2: back because I knew older students who had done that. Yeah, 283 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 2: it's strange to think about, but I just somehow knew, like, oh, 284 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 2: I'm just gonna email. I remember emailing USC and thing 285 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 2: like here I am, I'd love to come here. Let 286 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 2: me know what I need to do. And they were like, 287 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 2: you're way too young to be in touch with us, 288 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 2: And I just kept emailing, just stayed in touch, did 289 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 2: the summer programs, did the AP classes, volunteered, kept my 290 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 2: grades up as high as possible. Like my whole body 291 00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 2: was just like an arrows to leaving how and never 292 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 2: coming back. 293 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: Did you have anyone in your life that was like 294 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 1: in any way mentoring you or helping you become that arrow? 295 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 1: Or was this all you? And was there a teacher? 296 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: Was there anybody? Or was this just driven by your 297 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: own capacity and intense desire? 298 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 2: I think indirectly, yes, I was always like the English 299 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:26,640 Speaker 2: teacher's favorite. I would win the writing awards, and that 300 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 2: was that was something I knew I was good at, 301 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 2: and I think teachers expected me to be good at 302 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:34,919 Speaker 2: and to each year they would kind of hould me 303 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 2: up to a certain standard, and I think being held 304 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 2: up to that standard was what gave me the confidence 305 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 2: to think, Okay, well, I can lean on this and 306 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 2: hopefully a get into like a good college with a 307 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:47,959 Speaker 2: full fellowship, and I just have to figure out how 308 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 2: to do it. What I think is probably a story 309 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 2: for a lot of kids who love to read and 310 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 2: love to write. You just realize, ok, hey, this could 311 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 2: be this could be my thing, and if you have 312 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 2: the right teachers, it can become your thing. They didn't 313 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 2: know what was going on at home. I think, you know, 314 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 2: there were glimpses here and there, but for the most part, 315 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 2: I just leaned into that sort of kindness that came 316 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 2: from those classrooms. 317 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 1: Sarah's grandmother is on the one hand, responsible for Sarah 318 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: attending the school in River Oaks, but she's also focused 319 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: on keeping Sarah connected to her own culture and history. 320 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 2: I think what was very lucky was that I had 321 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 2: my grandmother Earth and she, you know, she was the 322 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 2: one who had gotten me into this school, but I 323 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 2: think you a part of her felt like, all right, 324 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 2: but you need to also stay connected to who you 325 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 2: are and who your roots are, so we would travel 326 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 2: to Africa together. You know. She did really try to 327 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 2: keep me fully embedded in this third word community that 328 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 2: had been her home and was my home. But at 329 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:53,879 Speaker 2: the same time I did pull away from that. I 330 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 2: think there was a part of me that wanted to 331 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 2: be loved at school, that wanted to assimilate, and that 332 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 2: meant that I changed the way I talked, you know, 333 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 2: I straightened my hair. I tried to just be, you know, 334 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:10,400 Speaker 2: as skinny as possible and as pretty and perfect as possible. 335 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,880 Speaker 2: And there was always kind of this division in terms 336 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 2: of like culture and taste and even language between what 337 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 2: the school offered, which to me seemed like the doorway 338 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 2: to wealth and success and freedom and life, and then 339 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 2: my home and sort of my roots in this place 340 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 2: where my aunt was and my mom and my grandmother 341 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 2: that had been our home you know for decades and 342 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 2: for generations, and I kind of just had to live 343 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 2: with that divide inside me for a long time. I 344 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 2: probably still do. 345 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 1: Sarah's plan that first begins in eighth grade, works and 346 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: she's admitted to Brown University in two thousand and three. 347 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: Brown is a great school, an ivy, and perhaps it 348 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: goes without saying, a super privileged place, a bastion of 349 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 1: wealth and whiteness that makes even Saint John's look like 350 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:06,200 Speaker 1: child's play. 351 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 2: I was terrified to feel anything, and I was on 352 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 2: the opposite side of the country, and I was experiencing 353 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 2: extremely cold weather for the first time, and I was 354 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 2: still dealing with all of the residual effects of my 355 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 2: childhood and none of that had been resolved. And also, 356 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 2: I don't come from the family where you use the 357 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 2: word depression, or you talk about medication, or you talk 358 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 2: about singether. I didn't even know I was allowed to 359 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 2: see a therapist. So by the time I got there, 360 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 2: I was, you know, beyond divided. I think I was 361 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 2: already just practically on the verge of shattering. I was 362 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:46,640 Speaker 2: so fragile psychically, and I didn't quite know it. And 363 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 2: the stress of being in that that sort of hothouse 364 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 2: environment is that like deeply rarefied world where yes, everyone 365 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 2: comes from amounts of money, you didn't even know where 366 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 2: possible people are literal Royalty and you're hanging out with them, 367 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,160 Speaker 2: your friends are dating them, you're dating them, your exes 368 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 2: are dating them, and you, you know, every second of 369 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 2: every day, you're just like, what am I doing here? 370 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 2: I don't belong here, but I have nowhere else to go, 371 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 2: and so I have to make it work. I think 372 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 2: that would maybe be enough to break anybody, but it 373 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:21,400 Speaker 2: was immensely difficult. Also at the same time, you're experiencing 374 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 2: this incredible privilege. I mean, I was a brown I 375 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 2: was at an ivy like school. I'd done it, you know, 376 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 2: a black girl makes good like that's what the story 377 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 2: is supposed to be. But all I wanted to do 378 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 2: was go home. And then I knew if I went 379 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 2: home it wouldn't work. It would be horrible too. So 380 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:39,679 Speaker 2: it was just terrible. 381 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 1: Despite the sense of not belonging. Sarah does make a 382 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: very good friend, and pretty much right away at orientation. 383 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,879 Speaker 1: Her name is Sadie and they have an instant kinship. 384 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: But it's complicated. 385 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 2: Sadie was much more of the world. Just even doing 386 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 2: like that was just at pleast where she felt comfortable. 387 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 2: She wasn't an outsider, it was she knew what these 388 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 2: sort of all the academic counts were like and we 389 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 2: were real black and we both wanted to write, and 390 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 2: everything just seemed too much easier for her, and she 391 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,919 Speaker 2: sort of flowed through these various worlds and everyone had 392 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 2: a crush on her, and she just impressed everyone. And 393 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 2: she held out her hand to me and said, you know, 394 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 2: come on, come with me. I'm going to show you 395 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 2: how to do this. And that active kindness sort of 396 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 2: changed my whole life and my whole factory at Brown. 397 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,679 Speaker 2: So this was the era of the hipster and there 398 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 2: were all these rich hipster boys who lorded over Brown 399 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 2: and knew it. You know, they underserved their status was 400 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:45,880 Speaker 2: and it was seen as a privilege to be among 401 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 2: them by some people. I was one of those people, unfortunately, 402 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,719 Speaker 2: and they went along on a trip ill advised to 403 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:55,679 Speaker 2: the city when I probably should have been class and 404 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 2: you know, did some substances I probably shouldn't have done, 405 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 2: and got myself into a very bad situation where I 406 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 2: was basically sexually assaulted by someone that I thought was 407 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 2: a friend in the empty apartment in the city that 408 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:14,679 Speaker 2: his parents owned. And this was one of those people 409 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 2: with that sort of crazy generational wealth that was kind 410 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,639 Speaker 2: of beyond my understanding, and the level of power that 411 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 2: came with that was beyond my understanding. I didn't really 412 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 2: know what had happened until afterwards, but it became something 413 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 2: that I couldn't quite figure out how to articulate or 414 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 2: wrap my head around, because on the one hand, I 415 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 2: had chosen to put myself in a certain situation, but 416 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,640 Speaker 2: on the other hand, I was definitely taking advantage of. 417 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:42,920 Speaker 1: And was this something that you sort of tucked away? 418 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: Did you tell people about it? 419 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 2: I think I just didn't want it to be a 420 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 2: big deal. I think I was probably pretty angry, but 421 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 2: it wasn't cool to be angry. I didn't feel comfortable 422 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 2: expressing that anger, even to myself. 423 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: Anger something to us, especially when we're afraid to feel it, 424 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 1: when we've internalized the idea that anger is very bad 425 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: and very dangerous, that it's not a safe feeling for us. 426 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:17,159 Speaker 1: What Sarah does feel is despair. She goes back to 427 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 1: Houston for spring break, and all that internalized, unexpressed anger 428 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:27,639 Speaker 1: morphs into suicidal ideation. She considers not going back to school, 429 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: considers giving up altogether. She's afraid that if she goes 430 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: back to school after break she'll hurt herself or worse. 431 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 1: Sadie knows what Sarah's going through and suggests a therapist, 432 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: but this too is complicated. 433 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 2: It was one of those things where you can only 434 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,679 Speaker 2: see the on site therapist at the school through three sessions, 435 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 2: and then if you seem worse, they try to send 436 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 2: you into the city or into the field and you 437 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 2: have to go figure out your own insurance and therapy. 438 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 2: And I had no idea how to do that. If 439 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,239 Speaker 2: you seem too messed up, you know, to citle, then 440 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 2: you have to go home and drop out of college. 441 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:09,159 Speaker 2: Like there just wasn't any help to be found. It 442 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 2: was almost like you had to know how to find 443 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,920 Speaker 2: help to find help. And this is the early mid 444 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 2: two thousands. The conversation around this was non existent. It 445 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 2: was just you take what you get if that's enough, 446 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:20,120 Speaker 2: and deal with it. 447 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: Sarah, was there a I mean, none of these things 448 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,640 Speaker 1: are neat and tidy, I know, but like, was there 449 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,919 Speaker 1: a breaking point? Was it after you know, the incident 450 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 1: in New York or was it the culmination of you know, 451 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 1: just this perfect storm of everything building that led to 452 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,400 Speaker 1: is this like suicidal thinking? 453 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,199 Speaker 2: Throughout this I had been dating the same person on 454 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 2: and off. Then this deeply dysfunctional relationship, even though you know, 455 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 2: we did love each other from freshman year until senior year. 456 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 2: And I was horrible to this person. But he had 457 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 2: a normal family and was a normal guy, and he 458 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,399 Speaker 2: was so kind, and I thought maybe he would be 459 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 2: my ticket, like he was the thing where okay, this 460 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 2: is my life raft I could hold on to this 461 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 2: person and he'll save me. And it just kept not 462 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:11,640 Speaker 2: working out because it just wasn't supposed to work out. 463 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 2: And at a certain point he was just like, I'm done, 464 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 2: I can't do this with you anymore, and he needed 465 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 2: someone of his social classes. I was just like, okay, well, 466 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:24,959 Speaker 2: I'm as that went up. I'm not going to get 467 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 2: another chance to get out of this like black hole 468 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 2: that I'm met and I don't know want to do anymore. 469 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 2: And I think it was that it was that combined 470 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 2: with everything else that was going on, and they were 471 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 2: all kind of symptoms of each other. You know, me 472 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 2: reaching out grassing onto this relationship and thinking that was 473 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 2: the thing I needed was obviously like a symptom of 474 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 2: this deeper dark or hurt that came from my relationship 475 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:45,920 Speaker 2: with my mom that I wasn't ready to. 476 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 1: Look at Sarah's grandmother does something uncharacteristic. She gives Sarah 477 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 1: straight up advice, perhaps even a command, to get herself 478 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 1: back to Brown, not to throw all her hard work, 479 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: her life away. 480 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 2: It was the only time she's ever done anything like that. 481 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 2: She doesn't like to put her hand on the scale 482 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 2: in that way. After her grandmother died of breast cancer, 483 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 2: she got really into Ruddism and Christian Marty and holistic health. 484 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:20,440 Speaker 2: She would never give direct advice. It was always kind 485 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,399 Speaker 2: of just figured it out on your own. But this 486 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:24,360 Speaker 2: was the one time where she said, if you don't 487 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,119 Speaker 2: go back to school, basically you're going to be ruining 488 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,399 Speaker 2: your life. You have to finish because she knew somehow, 489 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 2: she just knew. I think she was right. It was 490 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 2: the hardest thing I've ever done. I do not know 491 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,680 Speaker 2: how I survived. I still don't know how I survived 492 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 2: that last Seinmeister, but I'm very grateful to her for 493 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 2: not so. 494 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: Then during that period of time, the end of college 495 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: and then post college you moved to LA Do you 496 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,639 Speaker 1: have any relationship with your mother during that period of 497 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,360 Speaker 1: time or have you really kept your distance from her? 498 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 2: So I was in so much pain and I had 499 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 2: it felt like I had no one, and I would 500 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,360 Speaker 2: call her to reach out and she would just scream 501 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:08,160 Speaker 2: and scream and scream because my pain was hurting her 502 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 2: and she didn't know how to say that. She was 503 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 2: not equipped to provide, you know, consolation or advice. I 504 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 2: would just call and cry and she would yell at me. 505 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 2: But that was our relationship. 506 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets. 507 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: After college, Sarah goes back home. She's living on her 508 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: grandmother's couch, and again she needs to get out, needs 509 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 1: encouragement to get out. 510 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 2: It was my hairdresser, who was another one of these 511 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 2: black women that i'd always kind of grown up in 512 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 2: her orbit, my aunt's friend, and she said, don't stay here, 513 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,719 Speaker 2: like go, just go, And I did because I think 514 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 2: I needed somebody to see that explicitly to me. 515 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 1: Back in La Sarah gets a job as an assistant 516 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: at an entertainment agency. It's here that she first meets Ethan, 517 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: who's a client. A while later, the two run into 518 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: one another again at another assistant's birthday party, where they're 519 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: seated next to one another. This is the start of 520 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: a long committed relationship. Ethan's a great guy, even tempered, 521 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: kind loving. They're in the kind of partnership that supports 522 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: Sarah as she pursues her dreams. She applies to MFA 523 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: programs in writing and is accepted into NYU's Creative writing program, 524 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: one of the best in the country. She and Ethan 525 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: do the long distance thing during those years, and Sarah's 526 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 1: friendship with Sadie also continues, as does the complexity of 527 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: that friendship. 528 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 2: There was always this question pull between us because I'd 529 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 2: come from a school where I felt like I'd been 530 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 2: the best writer, and I knew that this is something 531 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 2: I could do. And then I'm at Sadie, who maybe 532 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 2: just write virtue of where she came from, was just 533 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 2: leagues ahead of me and got out of college thinking 534 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 2: maybe should be a doctor, and then suddenly decided to 535 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 2: be a writer, and then bam, was just a writer. 536 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 2: And I felt like, okay, I'm probably behind. It's we're 537 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 2: constantly I always felt competitive, but she was so generous, 538 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 2: you know, like, oh, you know, applying for this job 539 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 2: or do this, you know. She had her ear to 540 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 2: the ground. She was like really well connected, and so 541 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 2: she would say, well, let's do this application together, or 542 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 2: send your work here and it'll get published. And because 543 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 2: I know this personer, you know, I'll send you my 544 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 2: spreadsheet for applying to fellowships and grants. And I was like, 545 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 2: what's what's a fellowship? What's a grant? Like she just 546 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,160 Speaker 2: she just knew so much more than me. And and 547 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 2: so it's hard because I loved this person so much 548 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 2: and she was so helpful, but part of me it 549 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 2: was also just like, why is it so easy for you? 550 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 2: And why is it phil It's never going to happen 551 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 2: for me. And it was just like that for years 552 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 2: and years. 553 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 1: There are times in the life of a writer where 554 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: a project becomes utterly consuming, to the point of blindness. 555 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 1: Sarah had long been fascinated by the work of the 556 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:29,959 Speaker 1: philosopher Walter Benjamine and his ideas about the interconnectedness of 557 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: the Paris Arcades. She began what was she believed to 558 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: be her magnum opus, a novel inspired by Benjamin's series 559 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 1: of pattern and connection. 560 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 2: So Walter Benjamine had written this, he never even finished it, 561 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,479 Speaker 2: but he was trying to write a book called The 562 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 2: Arcades Project about the Paris Arcades, which are these who 563 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 2: are justus last covered gas lit walkways in Paris, that 564 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 2: he did this forensic analysis of the people who passed 565 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 2: through them and the class dynamics and what they represented 566 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 2: in terms of fashion and style and French culture. And 567 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 2: my professor at Brown was the first reason to translate 568 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:17,479 Speaker 2: it from German into English. So I took his class 569 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 2: and I kind of fell in love with Benjamine and 570 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,479 Speaker 2: like a lot of people do, I think he's one 571 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 2: of the more accessible theorists or philosophers out there. And 572 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 2: I ended up dropping out of that class during that 573 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 2: terrible senior year when I basically dropped every class an 574 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 2: almost DISI and graduate and I had just been carrying 575 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 2: this work around with me, this sort of half finished 576 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 2: essay I'd written and had been thinking about in terms 577 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 2: of Benjamine and the Arcade project, and carry that with 578 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 2: me all the way to grad school and was like, well, 579 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:49,479 Speaker 2: maybe I can turn this into a novel. I can 580 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 2: write a book about the arcades and about this history 581 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 2: of Paris. And then, of course the same thing happened 582 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 2: to me that had happened to Benyamine, where Benjamin could 583 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 2: never actually quite finish this book, and then he'd actually 584 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 2: died during a holocaust, and I couldn't finish my book 585 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 2: about Benjamin trying to write this book and just felt 586 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 2: myself getting buried and buried in the layers and the 587 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 2: history and the research, and you know, just losing any 588 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 2: confidence I had that I could be a writer because 589 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 2: I had taken on this huge project. 590 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 1: After grad school, Sarah moves back to la and she 591 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,719 Speaker 1: and Ethan are living together. They've both been working on 592 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 1: really interesting projects. Ethan's been making films and Sarah wrote 593 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 1: a libretto. Her escape plan is now fully functional. She's 594 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: feeling good happy. One day in twenty seventeen, they're at 595 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 1: a wedding celebration in Paso Roblis, beautiful wine country in California. There, 596 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: she gets a call. It's her grandmother calling to tell 597 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 1: her that her mother has been picked up on the 598 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 1: side of a highway. 599 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 2: There was just a total curtain of like dread that 600 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 2: just fell over me. We hadn't spoken when she had 601 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,760 Speaker 2: her first psychotic break. We hadn't spoken in years. We'd 602 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,319 Speaker 2: had a falling out over a project that I'd done 603 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 2: that she'd been offended by, and I had actually just 604 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 2: sort of right before my grandmother called, gotten a strange 605 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 2: phone call from her in what she was like very 606 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 2: kind to me, and it was really weird. And then 607 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 2: a few days later my grandmother called and said that 608 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 2: she'd been picked up and taken to the mental hospital 609 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 2: and they couldn't see her, you know, because she didn't 610 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:38,280 Speaker 2: want to see anyone, and she believed that FBI agents 611 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 2: or cops were following her down the highway, you know, 612 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,760 Speaker 2: by the hundreds and had been chasing her all across 613 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,360 Speaker 2: the city, so she wouldn't go inside. She wasn't eating, 614 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 2: she wasn't showering, she lost her job, and was just 615 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,240 Speaker 2: living in this sort of complete state of delusion. 616 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 1: There's a quote in your book where you right, I 617 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: want my mother to have the life I have to 618 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,319 Speaker 1: drink champagne at a wedding on a farm. The contrast 619 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,839 Speaker 1: at that point between the life that you're living and 620 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 1: the life that is really catching up with her and 621 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,800 Speaker 1: that she's spinning into so stark. Yeah. 622 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,319 Speaker 2: I felt like I'd kind of fully ascended to kind 623 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 2: of the creative class. I did sort of have the 624 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 2: beginnings of a life I'd aspired to, and then all 625 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 2: of a sudden I felt such guilt you know, I 626 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 2: just felt like, what am I even doing? Why am 627 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 2: I at this wedding? Why am I writing opera libretti? 628 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 2: What am I even? You know that none of that 629 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 2: is real. What's real is what's happening to my mother, 630 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:40,319 Speaker 2: and there's nothing I can do about that. So the 631 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 2: reason we had stopped speaking in the years before she 632 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 2: got sick was because of an opera that i'd written 633 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 2: the libretto for where one of the actresses in it 634 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,359 Speaker 2: sang a kind of a romantic song, and my mom 635 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 2: had come to see it, and she decided that the 636 00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 2: actress was in love with me, and I was in 637 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:04,400 Speaker 2: the with her, and I was cheating on my partner 638 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 2: and lying to everyone, and that I was gay, and 639 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 2: suddenly she was virulently homophobic, where she hadn't been before. 640 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 2: So now, obviously I can see that was probably a 641 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,840 Speaker 2: first step towards her total decompensation later, but at the time, 642 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 2: it just felt like she was ascribing to me all 643 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,840 Speaker 2: these lives and this life that I was not living, 644 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 2: and I didn't understand how to push back against that, 645 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,760 Speaker 2: because when somebody fully believes something about you that isn't true, 646 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 2: it can be really scary. Especially when that person is 647 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,400 Speaker 2: your mom and they believe it on no evidence. I 648 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 2: didn't know this actress. I hadn't cast the Peace, We 649 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 2: had no previous relationship. I hadn't really even met her 650 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 2: before experiencing that scene with my mother, and so that 651 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 2: I knew that her mental illness was like something that 652 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 2: could really get its hooks into me and kind of 653 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 2: pull me under. And that had been happening for my 654 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 2: whole life, and so I was really scared that was 655 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,960 Speaker 2: going to happen and to complete s like if she 656 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 2: we were so kind of imasged, and even though weren't speaking, 657 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,440 Speaker 2: she was such a huge part of my life that 658 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,359 Speaker 2: I felt like, well, this is happening to her, then 659 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 2: it's definitely it happened to me too. And on the 660 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:13,920 Speaker 2: one hand, I need to see as far away from 661 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 2: as possible, But on the other hand, I have her 662 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,880 Speaker 2: daughter and I have to go home. I didn't know 663 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,839 Speaker 2: what the answer was. I wanted so badly to fix 664 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 2: her because I had so much guilt, but I was 665 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 2: still afraid fixing her would me and breaking myself. 666 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,799 Speaker 1: So you do go back to Houston, and what's that like? 667 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 2: It's very strange, I think one thing, you know, experiencing 668 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 2: someone else's psychosis. There's nothing like that, and once do 669 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:45,280 Speaker 2: you experience it face to face, you're just forever changed. 670 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,279 Speaker 2: She looked like my mom, but she was living in 671 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 2: a completely different world. She was living in this empty room. 672 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 2: She'd taken over a part of a building that my 673 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:57,840 Speaker 2: grandmother owned and and died it out, and was afraid 674 00:37:57,880 --> 00:37:59,440 Speaker 2: that someone was going to come and steal in the 675 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 2: two chairs that she had in there. And she still 676 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,560 Speaker 2: believed that she had been persecuted. She felt my grandmother 677 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 2: and my aunt were feeding her poison and she was 678 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 2: starving herself, and she wouldn't use a toothbrush, and she 679 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 2: only wanted to eat black foods like avocados and sesame seeds. 680 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,360 Speaker 2: It was just sort of like like unreal. It felt 681 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:20,799 Speaker 2: almost dream like. I wanted her to just snap out 682 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,400 Speaker 2: of it, and she couldn't. I had been building my 683 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:27,600 Speaker 2: life so carefully there wouldn't be spaced for chaos. I mean, like, 684 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 2: you know, I had spreadsheets of my budget, and I 685 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,919 Speaker 2: carefully kind of calculated out my time, and I would 686 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:34,960 Speaker 2: wake up early and write every single day, and I 687 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:38,080 Speaker 2: just sort of made sure that nothing could go wrong. 688 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:41,359 Speaker 2: And then Suddenly everything was going wrong, and my mom 689 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,400 Speaker 2: had always been such a chaos agent that it felt like, Okay, well, 690 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 2: this wall life put up against chaos has totally been 691 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,960 Speaker 2: broken down. There's nothing I can do. This book that 692 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,880 Speaker 2: I've been working on for so long won't come together. 693 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 2: I had put all my eggs in this basket with 694 00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 2: my hope for becoming, and I thought I was going 695 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 2: to become like this big novelist. That's all I wanted. 696 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,480 Speaker 2: I just wanted to matter as a writer. And not 697 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,840 Speaker 2: only was that not going to happen, my mom was 698 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 2: freaking into pieces. I was having issues with my best friend, 699 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:16,480 Speaker 2: and I just I wanted to go crazy. I wanted 700 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:18,960 Speaker 2: none of it to be my responsibility. And I thought, 701 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 2: if my mom can do that, and I'll do it too, 702 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:22,399 Speaker 2: it's fine. I won't be afraid of it anymore. I'll 703 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:24,400 Speaker 2: just I'll just lose it too. 704 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 1: It all comes to a head, of course, Sarah begins 705 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:38,520 Speaker 1: a destructive rampage. She destroys her manuscript, all her research. 706 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 1: Her intention is to get free of her existence and 707 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:50,240 Speaker 1: slip into the abyss, but she doesn't. Ethan rescues her papers, 708 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 1: piecing back together as much as he can, and Sarah 709 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,800 Speaker 1: emerges from the deep despair that her mother has caused 710 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 1: her yet again. In twenty nineteen, she and Ethan get married. 711 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:08,960 Speaker 1: Her mother does not attend the wedding. Why because her 712 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:14,480 Speaker 1: mother herself has fallen into the abyss. She is extremely unwell, 713 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:19,400 Speaker 1: unable to travel, unable to be in Sarah's life. The 714 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,800 Speaker 1: absence is both a wound and a relief. Sarah tries 715 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 1: therapy again, and this time it works. It clicks. The 716 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:33,359 Speaker 1: right therapist can make all the difference, and this one 717 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:37,520 Speaker 1: provides ketemine assisted therapy, a form of therapy in which 718 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:42,239 Speaker 1: the anesthetic ketymine is taken in a clinical setting and 719 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,960 Speaker 1: under the influence of ketemine, Sarah returns to the world 720 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:50,120 Speaker 1: of Walter Benyamine and the images and concepts that have 721 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 1: long fascinated her. But now she's able to draw powerful connections. 722 00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:01,560 Speaker 1: Why was she drawn to Benyamine's work. She realized that 723 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:07,080 Speaker 1: her interest was not only literary, but also something psychologically profound. 724 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:12,840 Speaker 1: Bena means invisible patterns have contained a kind of secret. 725 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:18,840 Speaker 1: In researching schizophrenia, Sarah had discovered a term a psychological 726 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 1: condition apofinia, a hallmark of which is the certainty of 727 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:32,960 Speaker 1: invisible patterns. Apofinia is often a precursor to schizophrenia. Sarah 728 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:36,320 Speaker 1: comes to understand that she has been terrified all along 729 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 1: that she might inherit her mother's condition. This gives her 730 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 1: whole new stores of empathy, both for her mother and 731 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:46,880 Speaker 1: for herself. 732 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:52,839 Speaker 2: This therapist, she focused a lot on kind of her 733 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:57,040 Speaker 2: child's work as well. And I had been living with 734 00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:00,600 Speaker 2: this fear that this is actually true, that there is 735 00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,240 Speaker 2: this sort of tree like pattern that governs the growth 736 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:08,160 Speaker 2: of everything, every natural thing, but also construction and things 737 00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,879 Speaker 2: you wouldn't necessarily expect. And I had started to pick 738 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 2: up on this treelike pattern that is the same across 739 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,640 Speaker 2: things like cracks in the sidewalk and the shape of 740 00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:22,000 Speaker 2: lightning and the sap of rivers and the way trees grow. 741 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,759 Speaker 2: When I was living in Paris and grad school for 742 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:27,759 Speaker 2: a summer and I just started to see it everywhere. 743 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:30,960 Speaker 2: I just was like, it's really weird that you know, 744 00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,000 Speaker 2: the shape of my veins breaking open in my wrist 745 00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:35,799 Speaker 2: is the exact same shape of my fingers breaking off 746 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,640 Speaker 2: from my palm. But I didn't know what to do 747 00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:43,120 Speaker 2: with that information, and I didn't know of seeing that everywhere, 748 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:47,640 Speaker 2: those correspondences everywhere, not just in physical things, but and 749 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:51,719 Speaker 2: just sort of patterns of thought and story structure meant 750 00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,040 Speaker 2: that I was going crazy and I didn't I didn't 751 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:55,680 Speaker 2: know who to talk to you about it, because you know, 752 00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:57,120 Speaker 2: most of the time you try to explain that to 753 00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:58,600 Speaker 2: someone and they just tune out. You sound like you're 754 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:02,960 Speaker 2: in drugs or something. But I eventually came across this 755 00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:06,000 Speaker 2: book about something called the constructal law, and it turns 756 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,839 Speaker 2: out that this sheep is just a natural physical form 757 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,799 Speaker 2: that that does actually, you know, is a law that 758 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,480 Speaker 2: is a pattern of growth. The term was coined by 759 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,480 Speaker 2: Adrian Vijon, who is an engineering professor at Duke, and 760 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,640 Speaker 2: he applies this pattern to all kinds of sort of 761 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:24,279 Speaker 2: thermal energy scientific things. But he actually says in the 762 00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,719 Speaker 2: book that sometimes civilians will discover in this pattern and 763 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 2: think they're going crazy because we're so used to normal people, 764 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,880 Speaker 2: and I'll be able to understand universal scientific laws or 765 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:38,200 Speaker 2: discover them. And I felt so indicated by that. I 766 00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:40,759 Speaker 2: just remember sort of carrying that into my understanding of 767 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,920 Speaker 2: my mother and this idea of family trees, and you know, 768 00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:46,840 Speaker 2: what happens to her necessarily does happen to me, because 769 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,120 Speaker 2: I'm an extension of her, I'm a branch of her. 770 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:54,920 Speaker 2: And what happened with this therapist was something about like 771 00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:57,680 Speaker 2: the ketamine therapy, which she you take a loose in 772 00:43:57,719 --> 00:43:59,680 Speaker 2: the gin and then you lose it for an hour, 773 00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:01,560 Speaker 2: and then you have therapy about what you fly stated 774 00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:03,800 Speaker 2: about that sort of in the context of a larger 775 00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:08,920 Speaker 2: therapeutic relationship, and I was able to see my mother 776 00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,040 Speaker 2: not as the aggressor or the one with all the power, 777 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,960 Speaker 2: but as a child, as a little girl of reaching 778 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:20,680 Speaker 2: out her hands maybe for help immediate to me, and 779 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:25,640 Speaker 2: understand that as afraid as I was of her and 780 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,960 Speaker 2: for her, like that version of her that existed before 781 00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:34,000 Speaker 2: I ever, just before she was ever sick, still existed somewhere, 782 00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:36,560 Speaker 2: and I could find some solace and one and I 783 00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:39,480 Speaker 2: could find some kinship and some companionship with that virsion 784 00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:42,759 Speaker 2: of her, and that vision of her was safe and 785 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:47,360 Speaker 2: innocent then deserved to be loved and to be held 786 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:49,880 Speaker 2: and to be healed. And I was able to channel 787 00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:51,959 Speaker 2: a lot of love towards that version of her, which 788 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,640 Speaker 2: I think was healing for me, because then I was 789 00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,759 Speaker 2: able to love the version of myself that existed in 790 00:44:57,800 --> 00:44:59,880 Speaker 2: that scenario too, you know, the younger version of me, 791 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,920 Speaker 2: and realized that that version me deserved help too. You 792 00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:06,600 Speaker 2: know that now we're imperfect, but we both deserve safety, 793 00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:10,000 Speaker 2: you know, and to have a kind of relationship that 794 00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,640 Speaker 2: maybe we hadn't been able to access before, because that 795 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:14,160 Speaker 2: we needed. 796 00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:22,760 Speaker 1: Here's Sarah reading one last passage from her remarkable memoir 797 00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:25,480 Speaker 1: No One gets to fall apart. 798 00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,120 Speaker 2: If the patterns I saw in Paris met what I 799 00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:36,319 Speaker 2: thought they did. If everything that grows is shaped like 800 00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,280 Speaker 2: a branching tree, and if the core of that shape 801 00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:42,400 Speaker 2: is the trunk that runs through it, then life itself 802 00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:46,440 Speaker 2: is that trunk, and all of us are branches, elements 803 00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,720 Speaker 2: of a process of death and rebirth that progresses along 804 00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:53,440 Speaker 2: a continuum. We will never be able to see both 805 00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:55,840 Speaker 2: of us. My mother and I are a step towards 806 00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,960 Speaker 2: something new, and our lives are part of something bigger, 807 00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:05,480 Speaker 2: something but Changing. 808 00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:19,520 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. Molly's Acre is 809 00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:22,720 Speaker 1: the story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer. 810 00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:25,960 Speaker 1: If you have a family secret you'd like to share, 811 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:28,800 Speaker 1: please leave us a voicemail and your story could appear 812 00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:32,239 Speaker 1: on an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight 813 00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:36,440 Speaker 1: eight Secret zero. That's the number zero. You can also 814 00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:41,359 Speaker 1: find me on Instagram at Danny Rider and if you'd 815 00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:43,840 Speaker 1: like to know more about the story that inspired this podcast, 816 00:46:44,239 --> 00:47:07,000 Speaker 1: check out my memoir Inheritance. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 817 00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:10,640 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 818 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:11,640 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.