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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for a special bonus episode of this

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls podcast. We'll get right into our

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Speaker 1: conversation after a worry from our sponsors.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 3: I'm Morgan Parker and I'm on the Therapy for Black

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Speaker 3: Girls podcast and we're in session today. I'm packing my

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Speaker 3: collection of essays you Get What You Pay For.

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Speaker 1: Hey, y'all, it's time to make some space on your

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Speaker 1: bookshelf because we're back with another edition of TBG Library.

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Speaker 1: Today's pick is the debut book of essays by award

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Speaker 1: winning author Morgan Parker, titled You Get What You Pay for.

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Speaker 1: Morgan is a poet, novelist, and author of work such

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Speaker 1: as the young adult novel Who Put This Song On

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Speaker 1: and the poetry collection Magical Negro, which won the twenty

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Speaker 1: nineteen National Book Critics Circle Award. And You Get What

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Speaker 1: You Pay For. Morgan traces the difficulty and beauty of

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Speaker 1: existing as a black woman through American history, from the

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Speaker 1: foundational trauma of the slave trade all the way up

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Speaker 1: to Serena Williams and the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. Morgan

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Speaker 1: joins me today to discuss what it means to experience

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Speaker 1: hyper visibility as a black woman, regardless of class. How

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Speaker 1: as a teenager she advocated for her own mental health

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Speaker 1: with her parents, and the ways in which conversations with

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Speaker 1: her therapists influence her writing and vice versa. If something

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Speaker 1: resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with

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Speaker 1: us on social media using the hashtag TBG in Session

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Speaker 1: or join us over in the Sister Circle. To talk

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Speaker 1: more about the episode. You can join us at community

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Speaker 1: dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation. Thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for joining us today, Morgan.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited.

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Speaker 1: So as you say, let's start at the beginning, I'd

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Speaker 1: love for you to share when did you know that

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Speaker 1: you wanted to write poetry, or even write at all.

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Speaker 3: I was nine years old when I said I want

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Speaker 3: to be a writer, so it was a long time ago.

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Speaker 2: At that time, I did not like poetry at all.

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Speaker 3: I'm a firm believer that we teach poetry completely backwards.

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Speaker 3: It took me until the middle of college until I

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Speaker 3: read poetry that I was like, Oh, it could be this,

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Speaker 3: you know, like it can be about this stuff and

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Speaker 3: it can resonate with me and not be about snowy

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Speaker 3: evenings and men name Longfellow. So I was always interested

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Speaker 3: in writing, but I didn't really know what that meant.

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Speaker 3: I didn't know any published authors or anything like that,

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Speaker 3: so I guess in my head it was just like

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Speaker 3: some vision of me.

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Speaker 2: Being an older black woman with a blazer and like,

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like, I didn't really know

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Speaker 2: what it meant, but I always wrote.

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Speaker 3: I have kept journals, and I found that it was

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Speaker 3: something that helped me express myself in a way that

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Speaker 3: I didn't think was being expressed in conversation and in

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Speaker 3: just like how I was expressing myself through my body

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Speaker 3: in my words in person, and so I really found

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Speaker 3: that I was best able to say what I meant

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Speaker 3: if I was writing it, and so that became just

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Speaker 3: like my way of living in the world.

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Speaker 2: As a kid.

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Speaker 3: And as I got a little bit older and started

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Speaker 3: sharing things with my friends, it became a way for

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Speaker 3: me to connect with other people, which I always say

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Speaker 3: I write to communicate, and it is about connection. So

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Speaker 3: I found sharing little bits of journals and things like

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Speaker 3: that in middle school and high school, and my friends

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Speaker 3: were saying things like that's exactly how I feel, I

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Speaker 3: just don't know how to put it into those words,

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Speaker 3: and that felt really special to me, and it felt like, well,

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Speaker 3: if that's something that I can do for other folks,

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Speaker 3: to like articulate what people are feeling, that's pretty powerful

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Speaker 3: and it's something.

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Speaker 2: That I love to do and feel that i'm good at.

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Speaker 3: It's one of those things where when I'm writing, and

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Speaker 3: even as a kid, when I was writing, it was like, Okay,

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Speaker 3: this is when I'm supposed to be doing. This is

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Speaker 3: where I feel most free to be me, I guess,

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Speaker 3: and where I feel most valuable also to others.

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Speaker 1: Love then I'm curious. Have you thought about how we

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Speaker 1: should teach poetry to young people so that maybe more

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Speaker 1: of them fall in love with it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely.

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Speaker 3: I think there are so many exciting contemporary and young

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Speaker 3: poets right now who are doing incredible work, not just

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Speaker 3: in terms of entertainment, but also on the craft level.

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Speaker 3: And I think about the folks that I teach to

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Speaker 3: graduate students, folks who are writing about everyday things, people

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Speaker 3: who are black and brown, and people who are queer,

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Speaker 3: and people who've had a lot of different lives, a

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Speaker 3: lot of imperfect lives and are.

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Speaker 2: Willing to talk about it.

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Speaker 3: I think that's the sort of work that young people

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Speaker 3: need to be able to see and be fed poetry

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Speaker 3: in a way that is more of an offering and

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Speaker 3: less of a challenge to be presented. And honestly, I

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Speaker 3: think that a lot of the older and more traditional

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Speaker 3: and more you know, technically stale work that we look

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Speaker 3: at first, you know, if we're looking at Shakespeare or

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Speaker 3: Kipling or whatever it is, I think we can get

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Speaker 3: a lot more from it seeing how their.

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Speaker 2: Influence has showed up in this century.

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Speaker 3: You know, I think there's no problem with starting here

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Speaker 3: and then going backwards instead of starting way back there,

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Speaker 3: you know, and whoever whoever makes it, you know what

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Speaker 3: I mean, gets the treat of exciting poetry at the end.

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Speaker 2: That seems wrong, right right?

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Speaker 1: Agreed? Agreed. I appreciate that perspective. So talk to us

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Speaker 1: about what inspired you to write you get what you

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Speaker 1: pay for, and how it might be different from collections

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Speaker 1: of your other work.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well, it definitely took a lot longer, and I think

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Speaker 3: that had to do with not just the work, but

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Speaker 3: conceptualizing the book as a whole and not just each

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Speaker 3: individual essay.

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Speaker 2: I've been writing.

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Speaker 3: Essays in the past for various publications, and I was

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Speaker 3: always frustrated by word count. It felt like I was

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Speaker 3: able to just scratch the surface of a theme or

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Speaker 3: a topic. And so the inspiration behind writing a book

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Speaker 3: of essays was really to see what happens if I

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Speaker 3: had as much space as I need to follow these

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Speaker 3: threads that were interesting to me and a different way

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Speaker 3: of looking at I guess my life. I never intended

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Speaker 3: to write a memoir, but nonfiction is how can I

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Speaker 3: give you a look into my life? What are the

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Speaker 3: narratives around my life so far? And what are the

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Speaker 3: themes that are through lines in it, So thinking about

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Speaker 3: how to wed what my life experiences have been with

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Speaker 3: what are the themes and threads in the world and

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Speaker 3: throughout history that are really compelling to me, and that

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Speaker 3: I want to dig into research and follow every little

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Speaker 3: tiny breadcrumb and how am I going to blend those

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Speaker 3: together and put them in conversation with each other. So

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Speaker 3: a lot of it started when I wrote an essay

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Speaker 3: for The New York Times about how we should have

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Speaker 3: therapy as reparations, and that idea was one that I

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Speaker 3: wanted to follow, and thinking about mental health in general

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Speaker 3: as it relates to race relations and how our psychological

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Speaker 3: health is and has been affected by race relations in America.

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Speaker 2: And so that essay is just a little piece.

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Speaker 3: It's like me figuring out what that argument is and

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Speaker 3: laying it out, And in the process of writing the book,

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Speaker 3: the collection of essays, it was about thinking through my

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Speaker 3: experience of mental health. There's an essay for almost every

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Speaker 3: one of my therapists. I always say, the most memoiry part,

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Speaker 3: the parts where it's like you're following me in my life,

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Speaker 3: those are.

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Speaker 2: All happening in a therapist's office.

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Speaker 3: So that's just the way that I decided to frame

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Speaker 3: the book here is my life through the lens of

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Speaker 3: the therapist couches that I've been sitting on, I guess, and

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Speaker 3: what are the things that are going on out in

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Speaker 3: the world, and how are they relating to what I'm

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Speaker 3: talking about in the therapist's office.

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Speaker 2: So that was like the larger.

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Speaker 3: Conception of it, which there's a different type of storytelling

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Speaker 3: that happens in narrative nonfiction than in poetry. Obviously in

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Speaker 3: poetry there's less of argument making. It's more presenting the images.

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Speaker 3: And I still wanted to do that with essays, but

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Speaker 3: with the book, I did want it to feel as

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Speaker 3: though there was a claim being made and an argument

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Speaker 3: being fought for.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so mental health is definitely a large theme throughout

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Speaker 1: a lot of this work, and early on you talk

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Speaker 1: about like some of your early symptoms of depression being

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Speaker 1: written as an attitude problem or just the behavior of

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Speaker 1: a regular teenager. I wonder for you, when did a

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Speaker 1: shift that you realize that you actually needed the support

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Speaker 1: of a mental health professional.

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Speaker 3: I mean, for me, it really was like, oh, I

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Speaker 3: want to die, you know, it.

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Speaker 2: Really was it's either this or else.

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Speaker 3: And even though I didn't you know, it was almost

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Speaker 3: like I was like gaslighting myself because I'm like, maybe

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Speaker 3: it's not that bad, and maybe I am just a teenager,

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Speaker 3: and you know, I get it, but really having to

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Speaker 3: get to that point where it's like I'm trying and

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Speaker 3: I can't. There's got to be something outside of me

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Speaker 3: that can help me really getting to that point. I mean,

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Speaker 3: it really was more of a conversation between me and

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Speaker 3: my parents. These conversations were still working on, I will say,

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Speaker 3: but we've gotten a lot better about it, and I

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Speaker 3: can't imagine being put really in their shoes. Also because

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Speaker 3: I think that they didn't even really understand. You know,

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Speaker 3: the first time I said I wanted to go to

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Speaker 3: a therapist, They're like, hmm okay, oh, like what have

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Speaker 3: you been reading sort of thing. So it did take

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Speaker 3: a little bit of me just really not letting up

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Speaker 3: on that and trying and really pleading with them to

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Speaker 3: understand that I needed something else. Of course, the problem

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Speaker 3: was that they didn't know what that thing was. It

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Speaker 3: wasn't like, oh, I'll just call my therapy, you know

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Speaker 3: what I mean. So I think it presented a little

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Speaker 3: bit more of a challenge. It was easier to kind

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Speaker 3: of avoid because no one knew what to do, no

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Speaker 3: one knew what that meant, like what are the steps

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Speaker 3: even to take? So yeah, for me, it really was like,

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Speaker 3: I know that I feel bad, I know I have

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Speaker 3: felt bad. I'm thinking about the things in my life

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Speaker 3: that are making me feel bad and it's not adding up.

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Speaker 3: It feels bigger than me, and it feels bigger than

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Speaker 3: my middle school friend not hanging out with me anymore.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean it's not something that I.

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Speaker 3: Had a model for, but obviously have reread Sylvia Plath

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Speaker 3: and all these other New England white women, and they

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Speaker 3: seemed to be in therapy, you know, that seemed to

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Speaker 3: be a tool that were using, So why not me?

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Speaker 3: And yeah, I think it was hard because it was

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Speaker 3: hard for all of us to conceptualize that just talking

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Speaker 3: about my problems would help anything, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: I think there wasn't really an understanding of what the

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Speaker 3: therapeutic process is. And again that's something that I'm still

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Speaker 3: getting my folks to understand all these years later. So

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Speaker 3: it really was a blind spot in our family and

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Speaker 3: in our community.

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Speaker 2: It's a big thing for a fifteen year old to

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Speaker 2: have to do.

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Speaker 3: I feel lucky that I am so stubborn and was

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Speaker 3: able to advocate for myself because a lot of teens

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Speaker 3: don't or don't know what to say or what to do.

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Speaker 3: But I do feel like there was something in me

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Speaker 3: that knew I don't have to live like this, and

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Speaker 3: it feels a little early for me to just bow out,

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Speaker 3: you know.

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Speaker 2: So that really was where we were.

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Speaker 1: And I wondered, kind of looking back on your own experience, Morgan,

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Speaker 1: if there's advice you have for teens about how they

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Speaker 1: can advocate for themselves and their mental health.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think just be open about it and be

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Speaker 3: honest with themselves. I think where I got into trouble

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Speaker 3: was doubting myself and thinking, oh, it's not that bad,

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Speaker 3: maybe I'll feel better tomorrow, you know. I mean you

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Speaker 3: can only think that for how many tomorrows. So I

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Speaker 3: think believing that my problems were real really gave me

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Speaker 3: more confidence and to not shy away from really saying

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Speaker 3: how I felt.

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Speaker 2: It was hard, you know.

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Speaker 3: I think parents and black parents who don't have experience

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Speaker 3: with therapy especially have this way of internalizing it as

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Speaker 3: I am a failure because you're not happy, And I

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Speaker 3: think that that can stop us as young people. A

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Speaker 3: lot of the time, you don't want to hurt your

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Speaker 3: parents feelings. You don't want to make them feel bad.

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Speaker 3: So I would just encourage them to honor how they're

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Speaker 3: feeling and be honest about that. I think for me,

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Speaker 3: a lot of it was that my parents didn't know

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Speaker 3: exactly how bad I felt because I didn't want to

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Speaker 3: tell them and it's hard to say it out loud.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that is, especially like you said at that age.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. Yeah. So I'm curious, Morgan, how would you

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Speaker 1: say your writing has been informed by your experience of

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Speaker 1: being in therapy and then vice versa. I'm curious to

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Speaker 1: hear how much of your experience and your identity as

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Speaker 1: a writer actually shows up in therapy. Can you talk

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Speaker 1: to us about that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so intertwined at this point, and I'm really

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Speaker 3: grateful that's something that my therapists are interested in and

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Speaker 3: helping me with. We talk a lot about my career

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Speaker 3: in therapy. I mean, that's my life, right and a

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Speaker 3: lot of this work requires me to have a certain

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Speaker 3: level of self understanding and self knowledge.

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Speaker 2: And self forgiveness.

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Speaker 3: You know, a writing requires a lot of grace with

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Speaker 3: the self, and so a lot of the time, the

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Speaker 3: tools that we're talking about developing for me to move

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Speaker 3: through the world are the same tools that are going

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Speaker 3: to help.

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Speaker 2: Me in my writing process.

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Speaker 3: And a lot of it is talking about, you know,

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Speaker 3: how am I going to be prepared to go on

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Speaker 3: tour and how am I going to protect myself when

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Speaker 3: I'm really trying to be vulnerable in the writing.

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Speaker 2: So there's a lot of discussion of that.

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Speaker 3: I will also say that I could not have written

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Speaker 3: this book, my last book, the one before that, I

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Speaker 3: could not have written any of them without being in therapy.

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Speaker 3: And often I'll write something and be like, Okay, this

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Speaker 3: is what we'll talk about in therapy. You know, there

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Speaker 3: were a lot of poems in my last poetry book,

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Speaker 3: Magical Negro, where I would write a draft and look

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Speaker 3: at it and think, oh, okay, well, I need two

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Speaker 3: more therapy sessions before I can finish this poem. Now

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Speaker 3: that I know that the poem's doing that, I'm not

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Speaker 3: yet in place where I can go there. And that

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Speaker 3: sort of navigation has been incredibly important to my writing process.

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Speaker 3: I think when I was first starting out, it was like, whoa,

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Speaker 3: this is where the poem's going I'm going there, and

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Speaker 3: then maybe I'm just like totally shredded at the end.

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Speaker 3: So it has been helpful for me to notice where

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Speaker 3: they can help each other, where I can talk through

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Speaker 3: some things in therapy that will help me feel safer

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Speaker 3: writing about them in poetry, and where I can spill

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Speaker 3: some of my unconscious in poetry and have that inform

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Speaker 3: future therapy sessions. I mean, it's all very interconnected, right,

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Speaker 3: and it's I think the more that I'm able to

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Speaker 3: acknowledge that and harness it, the stronger not only my

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Speaker 3: writing about depression, but just my writing about myself has been.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if there are poems that you've written and

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Speaker 1: you realize where it's taking you and you realize, oh,

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Speaker 1: I don't know that this needs to be public, right,

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Speaker 1: Like this may be something that I all talk about

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Speaker 1: with my therapists, Like how do you make the decisions

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Speaker 1: between which ones get shared with the public and which

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Speaker 1: ones you keep privately?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that all happens in the editing process, for sure.

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Speaker 3: I think all drafts at first are like, we'll see

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Speaker 3: if this gets shown to people. And I think there's

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Speaker 3: two parts of the process. There's the part where I'm

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Speaker 3: expressing something, and then there's the part where the poem

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Speaker 3: is expressing itself. Right, So sometimes it's just for me

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Speaker 3: to express myself and the poem doesn't live on its

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Speaker 3: own for other folks, you know what I mean. I

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Speaker 3: think it's really about what is being expressed. Is it

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Speaker 3: just me working through something? Or am I saying something

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Speaker 3: larger that other folks can grasp onto while speaking about myself?

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Speaker 1: I guess ass. It's nice to see you're still with this.

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Speaker 1: What do you think about the conversation so far? Did

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Speaker 1: anything come to mind for you? Or maybe you're just

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Speaker 1: listening and learning That works too. If you're enjoying this

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Speaker 1: week's episode, be sure to circle back next week. Here's

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Speaker 1: a preview of our conversation on starting a career after

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Speaker 1: fifty with jenn Is.

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Speaker 4: Suddenly can tell by my accent, I'm English born, but

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Speaker 4: I moved to the Caribbean from a successful career to

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Speaker 4: have a different life, and that life seemed to ramp up,

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Speaker 4: so I made the decision I was done in my fifties,

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Speaker 4: rapidly approaching my sixties now and decided this wasn't the

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Speaker 4: life I'd signed up for. So it's time to make

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Speaker 4: a change, and if I don't do it, something else will.

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Speaker 1: So is there anything that happened, because it feels like,

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Speaker 1: you know, many of us have these like a how moments,

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Speaker 1: or like something happens and we're like, I need to

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Speaker 1: make some changes or my values are not quite an alignment.

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Speaker 1: Was there any specific thing that led to this piod?

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Speaker 4: There was definitely a values challenge because at the time

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Speaker 4: we were going through a major restructuring and I looked

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Speaker 4: at where the organization was going and realized that's not

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Speaker 4: where I want to be going in my career. In fact,

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Speaker 4: when I moved to the Caribbean, I'd already decided that

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Speaker 4: had reached the peak of my career. I didn't intend

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Speaker 4: to be c sweet. I never came to do this job.

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Speaker 4: I came to have a step down, but I found

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Speaker 4: myself being rapped up to even more work. I then

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Speaker 4: start experiencing my second what I can recall, my second

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Speaker 4: bout of burnout, and my body was telling me that

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Speaker 4: this isn't going to work, This is not working for you.

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Speaker 4: You need to do something.

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Speaker 1: Has your body ever told you it was time to

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Speaker 1: make a change. If you want to find out what

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Speaker 1: Jane is dere to transform her life. Be sure to

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Speaker 1: tune in next Wednesday. So in this collection, the first

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Speaker 1: entry year started at the beginning, like we mentioned before,

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Speaker 1: and this is an overview of your upbringing in the

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Speaker 1: social and political events that influence did you also referenced

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Speaker 1: Laura Neil Hurston's quote, I remember the very day that

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Speaker 1: I became colored. Can you talk about some of your

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Speaker 1: earliest experiences related to race and how they continued to

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Speaker 1: shape you today.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I grew up, I mean, in a black family, but

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Speaker 3: in a very white community, and I went to a private,

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Speaker 3: very white Christian school that was fairly evangelical. So I

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Speaker 3: was the outsider from the beginning in a lot of

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Speaker 3: different ways. And this is before I started wearing blazers,

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Speaker 3: so then it was like full outsider. But my relationship

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Speaker 3: to myself and my blackness, I think was so complicated

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Speaker 3: because it was such a time in the early nineties

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Speaker 3: of not seeing color again, this sort of gaslighting thing

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Speaker 3: of like I feel something is different about me, but

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Speaker 3: y'all are saying there's no different, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: So I think that really had an effect on how

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Speaker 3: I was able to access my own identity I guess

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Speaker 3: how I felt allowed to. There's something about not wanting

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Speaker 3: to be the one that stands out, but also being

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Speaker 3: aware that you do. You can look at the pictures

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Speaker 3: of my class, my six rade class, and I'm just

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Speaker 3: like a little brown spot right there, so you can't

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Speaker 3: tell someone you're.

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Speaker 2: Just the same.

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Speaker 3: And then you see that picture and obviously one of

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Speaker 3: these is not like the others. So I do think

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Speaker 3: there's a little bit of me having to deal with

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Speaker 3: my difference on my own, if that makes sense, and

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Speaker 3: understanding what that meant, but not really being able to

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Speaker 3: talk about it in my social life. Some with my

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Speaker 3: parents and all of that, but I didn't, you know,

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Speaker 3: with my friends at school.

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Speaker 2: There was always this.

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Speaker 3: Unspoken navigation of my identity. I think either that or

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Speaker 3: it had to be some kind of a joke. However

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Speaker 3: I could make it non threatening.

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Speaker 2: I guess.

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Speaker 1: And how would you say that has shown up for

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Speaker 1: you later in life? At what point do you feel

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Speaker 1: like you were able to have more open conversations about

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Speaker 1: who you were as a black woman in the world.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean a little bit later in high school,

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Speaker 3: but certainly college. I moved to New York, so I

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Speaker 3: was living in New York City context is key, So

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Speaker 3: living around a lot more black folks made me feel

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Speaker 3: freer to exist as a black person. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 3: I think it took me almost exercising myself from a

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Speaker 3: situation in order to be able to access all the

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Speaker 3: parts of myself with pleasure and without feeling like a

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Speaker 3: trespass of some kind. But yeah, I think for that reason,

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Speaker 3: I am very attuned to the other things about myself

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Speaker 3: that are different or the same, And writing is part

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Speaker 3: of this. I think being a writer was kind of

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Speaker 3: part of my identity in high school, and being the

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Speaker 3: writer is different than being the black girl, if.

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Speaker 2: That makes sense.

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Speaker 3: I think there's a way that we find our identities

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Speaker 3: underneath the identity because we're forced to. So for me,

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Speaker 3: I became, i think, more secure in the other parts

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Speaker 3: of myself that were different the Doc Martin wearing blazer,

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Speaker 3: wearing weirdo writer. I think I was more comfortable with

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Speaker 3: standing out and I think I still am for those reasons.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, I think that that has affected my ability

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Speaker 3: to just.

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Speaker 2: Like embrace who I am in a lot of ways

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Speaker 2: because I had to.

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Speaker 3: I guess I had to in the absence of being

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Speaker 3: able to embrace the fullness of myself.

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Speaker 1: You've mentioned this blazer several times, and I'm curious to

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Speaker 1: know whether that still is a major part of like

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Speaker 1: your identity as a writer, and like, where are you

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Speaker 1: finding your fabulous blazers.

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Speaker 3: Still just full big part of my personality is the blazer. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I picked a couple from J Crew for the tour,

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Speaker 3: but I get a lot at thrift stores. That's always

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Speaker 3: been where I get a lot of good blazers.

442
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 2: I like a good.

443
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,359
Speaker 3: Print, I like a nice hounds tooth. You know, a

444
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:14,400
Speaker 3: good corduroy blazer. But it's great, I think to latch

445
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 3: onto those parts of yourself that are through lines that

446
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:18,679
Speaker 3: you're like, you know what. This is something where I

447
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 3: feel like myself, I feel comfortable, And I think as

448
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,639
Speaker 3: I've gotten older, it's been important to find those things

449
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 3: that even when I was nine, I liked this, And

450
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 3: what are those things that can always remind me who

451
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 3: I am because I think the world can confuse it sometimes.

452
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:39,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was gonna say it sounds like it was

453
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:41,119
Speaker 1: important to you very early on in life, right, like

454
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 1: as it shaped your identity of who a poet is,

455
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:45,879
Speaker 1: and is something that has kind of grown with you,

456
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 1: which I think is very cool. So one of your

457
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,919
Speaker 1: other essays, watch Her Rise and Rain. It explores the

458
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 1: perceptions of black womanhood and the prize and perils of

459
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 1: being a highly visible black woman. You share this through

460
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,120
Speaker 1: the lens of Serena william though I think this kind

461
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,439
Speaker 1: of applies to lots of different black women. Can you

462
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 1: talk to us a little bit about that piece and

463
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,200
Speaker 1: why you specifically chose the lens of Serena Williams.

464
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I originally wrote that piece for ESPN, and

465
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 3: I am not a sports person, but I was excited

466
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 3: to take that assignmix. I was like, my dad's going

467
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 3: to be so excited. And because I love Serena. I mean,

468
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,639
Speaker 3: she's Serena. She's more than an athlete. So I was

469
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:30,159
Speaker 3: interested in writing about her obviously because I'm interested in

470
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,920
Speaker 3: writing about black womanhood, and I was interested to see

471
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 3: what would happen if I wrote about sports, Like what

472
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 3: through lines could I find? What connections could I find?

473
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 3: You know, all writers know that sports is like the

474
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 3: greatest metaphors.

475
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 2: Why not me?

476
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,119
Speaker 3: Why couldn't I use it? It's kind of funny. My

477
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 3: agent had gotten a lot of requests from me. I

478
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 3: guess that like Black History Month or whatever to write

479
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 3: about like my hair, and I just was like, very like,

480
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 3: I'm never gonna write about my hair, like you know what.

481
00:25:58,440 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 2: To end this white guy. But I was like, you know,

482
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:01,360
Speaker 2: I went to say to these people.

483
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 3: And in that essay I ended up talking about braids

484
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 3: and seeing the Serena and Venus and their braids and

485
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 3: that giving me comfort wheneveryone was making fun of my

486
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 3: braids at my school and it just was hilarious. On

487
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 3: My agent was like, how do you get Morgan to

488
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:17,880
Speaker 3: talk about her hair?

489
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 2: Ask her to talk about sports. You know, we'll come

490
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:22,439
Speaker 2: around to it in that way.

491
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 3: But I was so excited like the different themes that

492
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 3: came up in that where it was like, all right,

493
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,719
Speaker 3: let's see how to talk about this tennis player. But

494
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 3: really it just brought me back to seeing her on TV,

495
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 3: seeing her, you know, those beads in her braids, and

496
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 3: feeling a sort of affirmation from that.

497
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 2: So that became the seed of that essay of here's.

498
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,959
Speaker 3: This woman I don't know personally, but she's in the world,

499
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:53,919
Speaker 3: and her being in the world makes it possible for

500
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,439
Speaker 3: me to be in the world. So that became the

501
00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,040
Speaker 3: framing for the essay of our lives as paralleled. And

502
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 3: I do think that black women were connected to each other,

503
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,400
Speaker 3: and our fates are connected to each other, and our

504
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,479
Speaker 3: success is connected to each other. So it was a

505
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 3: way to talk about that by just using the example

506
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 3: of just me and Serena, but really thinking about, yeah,

507
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 3: what are the challenges that we face, and we face

508
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 3: them in.

509
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 2: Distinct but similar ways.

510
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 3: You know, no matter who you are, what your career is,

511
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 3: how many people are looking at you, we are all

512
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 3: sharing those experiences of being alienated and being undervalued.

513
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,959
Speaker 2: Or overhyped or whatever it is.

514
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 3: We have a lot of shared experiences in terms of

515
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 3: how we're being perceived.

516
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:46,919
Speaker 2: By the world.

517
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:51,400
Speaker 3: It's easy for us to separate like celebrity from regular

518
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 3: but when it comes to black women, I mean, maybe

519
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 3: that's just not useful. And that was part of what

520
00:27:57,840 --> 00:27:59,880
Speaker 3: I was trying to do with their more beautiful things

521
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 3: Beyonce as well, a more of a leveling of playing

522
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 3: field of like, we're all dealing with these things, no

523
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 3: matter one stature or money or fame, I mean, and

524
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 3: it's it's wild to think, you know, well, she has

525
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 3: all this and they're still saying that stuff about her.

526
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 3: So it was a little bit of that of like, wow,

527
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 3: we all stand on the same ground to America, right,

528
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 3: so what does it look like when we stand on

529
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 3: the same ground to each other?

530
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 1: Morgan? Are there other pieces that you've been able to

531
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 1: write that weren't quite your beat so to speak? Like, Oh,

532
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 1: an esp and angle wouldn't have been one you naturally

533
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: would have maybe pitched, but it came out to me glorious.

534
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 1: Others you can think of that you feel like really

535
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 1: helped bring your writing to life.

536
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, assignments are really helpful because it really

537
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 3: puts you outside of yourself. There's another essay in the

538
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 3: book that started as a piece for an anthology that

539
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 3: celebrating one hundred years of the ACLU. And so there

540
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 3: are a bunch of different cases that the ACLU intervened

541
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 3: in and I had to pick one, and I picked

542
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 3: one about this Christian university that I had never.

543
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 2: Heard of before. And it was my be for sure.

544
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 3: But it was a weird way to enter to enter

545
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 3: talking about myself and my relationship to white Christianity.

546
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 2: It was interesting that it was the school I'd never

547
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 2: heard of. The story was.

548
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 3: That they had these very racist emissions policies where black

549
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 3: people weren't allowed to.

550
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 2: Be admitted, and then it was like only.

551
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 3: Married black people could if they're married to another black person,

552
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 3: and like no single black people. And this is like

553
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 3: late seventies when I say that single black person could come,

554
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 3: but only if they'd never been in an interracial relationship

555
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 3: or didn't advocate for so very strange things like that.

556
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 3: That stuff was in the school's policy until the year

557
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,719
Speaker 3: two thousand and I ended up finding this sermon by

558
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 3: the school's founder that was given in nineteen sixty and

559
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,959
Speaker 3: just went in and decided to you know, I whipped

560
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 3: out my Bible versus that I had not looked at

561
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 3: for a while and was like, no, I know that

562
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 3: I'm arguing with him. So that was something where I

563
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 3: didn't really expect to go into it that way, but

564
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 3: that's what happened, and it was fruitful. But it was

565
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 3: also like, Wow, all of this stuff is very interconnected

566
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 3: me feeling lonely and desirable at times in my life.

567
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 3: It was hard to not find links there. Thinking about

568
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 3: a white Christian institution that saw interracial dating and interracial

569
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 3: sex as so dangerous. Those are things that were in

570
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 3: the back of my mind as a child, but I

571
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 3: didn't know that. So I think there was a lot

572
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 3: of that where I didn't expect myself to be reflecting

573
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 3: so much on the messaging that I heard as a

574
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 3: child in school, from like elementary school and chapels and

575
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 3: all of that. I had been excited to write about

576
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 3: Christianity in the Civil Rights era in general, but was

577
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 3: surprised to find that, you know, part of it. I

578
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 3: ended up writing about immigration, and ended up writing about

579
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 3: the Republican Party, and it all really kind of one

580
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 3: thing leads to another, and I found that anytime I

581
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 3: was looking into the past, that's what happened.

582
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 2: Anytime I'm looking at history.

583
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 3: I found that I was writing about the present, or

584
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 3: if I was writing about the present, turned out I

585
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 3: was writing about history. So there were a few different

586
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 3: essays where it kind of was like, this is way

587
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 3: off the rails of where I thought I was going.

588
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 2: The train is still moving, I guess, and that was

589
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 2: exciting but also overwhelming.

590
00:31:54,960 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, So you also

591
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 1: write about terms like black girl magic and black excellence,

592
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: and while those things can be celebratory, it feels like

593
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: there's also the potential for harm. Can you talk a

594
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: little bit more about that.

595
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, everything depends on who's saying it, right and why.

596
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 3: I think sometimes it's one thing if we're saying that

597
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 3: to each other.

598
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 2: It's another thing if it's a corporate logo. You know

599
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 2: what I mean? What are the motivations behind saying that?

600
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 3: I worry sometimes that we get these sorts of hollow

601
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 3: affirmation in order to make us be quiet and to

602
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 3: say that's excellence. So, yes, that's good, that's enough, Sit

603
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 3: down now, you know. So I worry a little bit

604
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 3: about that. I rebel against someone not black defining black excellence.

605
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 2: That is something.

606
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 3: And the other thing, to go back to my book

607
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 3: Magical Negro and part of why I titled it that

608
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 3: and thinking about the black girl magic is obviously there's

609
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 3: a danger to that, right, there's a way that our

610
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 3: humanity is undercut if we're magic.

611
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 2: That's how Roni King got beied.

612
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 3: You know, if you're a magical hulk, then you can't

613
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 3: feel pain. So I think a lot of those dangers

614
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,239
Speaker 3: are embedded in it, depending on who's saying it. We

615
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 3: as black girls know our magic is our humanity, but

616
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 3: do other folks know that and so for me, there's

617
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 3: a little bit of that where I'm like, it's not magic.

618
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 3: I'm just I'm really tired, you know what I mean,

619
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 3: It's not magic. And so I bulk a little bit

620
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 3: at that when it's coming from an outside perspective, because

621
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 3: it feels like a way to erase effort and pain.

622
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 3: And I worry that sometimes our praise of black excellence

623
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 3: is an effort to contain black excellence and define it

624
00:33:55,920 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 3: and by defining it, leaving things out totally understanding.

625
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for sharing it. So what would

626
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: you say are your hopes for the impact of your

627
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 1: work on your readers, especially for young black women.

628
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 3: I always answer is permission. That's what I want to

629
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 3: give young Black women. Permission to be themselves, speak themselves,

630
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 3: to hurt, to cry, to go.

631
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 2: To therapy, you know, to write down what they want.

632
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 3: That's always my goal is just to give other Black

633
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 3: women the permission that I don't think I've always had.

634
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 3: And then affirmation. I think in this book, I really

635
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,839
Speaker 3: do want to offer straight up affirmation of I see

636
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 3: you and I see your pain and I get it.

637
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 2: Those would be the big ones this book.

638
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 3: I really want it to allow people to have conversations

639
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 3: that they haven't had before. I think that is something

640
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 3: that this book has the potential to do.

641
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 2: So I'm hoping that that works out.

642
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,919
Speaker 3: But really, in particular for young black people, I want

643
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 3: them to feel affirmed. I want them to feel encouraged.

644
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 3: And yeah, I mean, if a couple of people can

645
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 3: go to therapy, that'd be fantastic. If a couple of

646
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 3: people break up with their white therapists and get a

647
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 3: black one, that's cool too, you know. And even if

648
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 3: it's just a matter of I'm not going to use

649
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,879
Speaker 3: this word anymore, or I'm gonna take an extra beat

650
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 3: before I respond in this way, little things like that,

651
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 3: I think are really what I'm asking for As an author.

652
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 3: I spend a lot of time, I mean five years

653
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,839
Speaker 3: picking the words that I used in this book, being

654
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 3: really intentional about language, and really I think that's what

655
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 3: I'm asking my readers to do also, is just to

656
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 3: be as considerate about the language that they're using in

657
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,240
Speaker 3: the world and just know that it makes a difference.

658
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 1: So what would you say you learned about yourself in

659
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 1: writing this particular book.

660
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 2: That's a really good question. I feel like I want

661
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 2: to text my therapists and ask her.

662
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 1: She might have a better risk for this one.

663
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, Oh man, I think I learned that I

664
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 3: cannot do it all. I learned that I have to

665
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 3: be patient with myself and patient with my words. I

666
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 3: was really impatient with myself about this book and went

667
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 3: through some really hard times while I was writing it

668
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 3: and was so frustrated that I wasn't writing and my

669
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 3: doctor was like, you can't.

670
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 2: You know, you cannot do this.

671
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 3: So really learning to be a little bit more patient

672
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 3: with myself is kind of the journey of this book,

673
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:36,839
Speaker 3: knowing where it isn't safe for me to go at

674
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:37,280
Speaker 3: the moment.

675
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,320
Speaker 2: You know, I learned a lot.

676
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 3: About how trying to take care of myself in the

677
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 3: writing process.

678
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 2: You know, I was writing this through the pandemic. I

679
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:46,720
Speaker 2: live alone.

680
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 5: It's just me and me in the past and you

681
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 5: know it, Zarina, and so really figuring out when it's

682
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 5: just me and I'm the only tools I got, how

683
00:36:57,760 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 5: can I protect myself?

684
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 3: So that was a journey of this book. And in

685
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 3: a way, the book is a request that's like I

686
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 3: can't do it on my own, and these are all

687
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:09,919
Speaker 3: the reasons why, and how can we help each other

688
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:12,839
Speaker 3: more because it isn't fair what we ask each other

689
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 3: to suffer through and the ways that we don't notice

690
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 3: each other and each other's pain. I think I'll know

691
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,280
Speaker 3: more about this in like three years.

692
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 1: You know, you got to sit with it a little bit.

693
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm like, I think I'm still learning.

694
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 1: So what are you currently reading, writing and thinking about

695
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,399
Speaker 1: that you feel like is challenging some of your perspectives.

696
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 3: Well, I'm reading a craft book right now which is

697
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 3: bueing everything, like swirling everything in my head. It's called

698
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 3: How We Do It, and it's edited by Jericho Brown,

699
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 3: and it's a bunch of craft essays by a lot

700
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 3: of different types of writers, and they're all taking different perspectives,

701
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 3: different themes. There's one towards the beginning by I think

702
00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 3: Crystal Wilkinson, and she presents all of these prompts for

703
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 3: creating characters, and that is really I think, coming from

704
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 3: writing nonfiction where I am the character and thinking about

705
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 3: future projects, it's really cool to see how a novelist

706
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 3: like her develops characters. And I think that's where I

707
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 3: am right now and thinking about creating fictional characters or

708
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 3: characters for screen, or how do we make fiction human.

709
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,839
Speaker 3: I guess that's sort of where I am. I do

710
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 3: have some like fiction ideas, but for me, it has

711
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:39,399
Speaker 3: to start with the characters. So I'm enjoying hearing how

712
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 3: other writers talk about developing characters, and I think that's

713
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 3: really where my head is right now. Working a little

714
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 3: bit on the screen adaptation of my young adult novel

715
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 3: Who Put This Song On? So that has been a

716
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 3: major challenge because writing for screen has its own rules,

717
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 3: and I struggle with the rules, so that's challenge, and

718
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:06,439
Speaker 3: then working within the confines of production company and all

719
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 3: of their stats about what teenagers want and trying to

720
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 3: push against that. I'm feeling the challenge of making a

721
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 3: teen movie. But it's about depression in the suburbs, so

722
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 3: it's not all the it doesn't have all the hallmarks

723
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 3: of a teen movie. So it has been a challenge

724
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 3: for me to think about what is the teen movie

725
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 3: miss about that? You know, it's they're not going to

726
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 3: prom not a lot of it's happening. There's a lot

727
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 3: of crying, but how can we still make it feel

728
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 3: like a teen movie? Which it has been an interesting challenge,

729
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 3: you know, but fun, I mean, depression is pretty funny,

730
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:41,280
Speaker 3: so it's doable.

731
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing that. We will definitely be on

732
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 1: the lookout for that screen at teaching.

733
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

734
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: So where can we stay connected to you? Morgan? What

735
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: is your website as well as any social media channels

736
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 1: you'd like to share and where do we grab a

737
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 1: copy of the book.

738
00:39:55,680 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 3: My website is Morgan hyphen Parker dot com. My instagram

739
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 3: is Morgan apples zero and you can find the book

740
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:10,839
Speaker 3: out March twelfth, everywhere that you buy your books indie bookstores.

741
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 2: You can order it on bookshop.

742
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 3: And you can read it as a kindlebook and an

743
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:19,280
Speaker 3: audiobook perfectly.

744
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 1: Will be sure to include all of that in the

745
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 1: show notes. Thank you so much for spending some time

746
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 1: with us today, Morgan.

747
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 2: Thank you. I appreciate it.

748
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 1: I'm so glad Morgan was able to join us today

749
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 1: to chat about you Get what You paid For. To

750
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 1: learn more about her work, or to grab a copy

751
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,320
Speaker 1: of the book, visit the show notes at Therapy for

752
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 1: Blackgirls dot com slash you Get what you pay for

753
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 1: and don't forget to text two of your girls right

754
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 1: now and encourage them to check out the episode. If

755
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 1: you're looking for a therapists in your area. Check out

756
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,280
Speaker 1: our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash

757
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 1: directory And if you want to continue digging into this

758
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 1: topic or just be in community with other sisters, come

759
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 1: on over and join us in the Sister Circle. It's

760
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,280
Speaker 1: our cozy corner of the Internet designed just for black women.

761
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 1: You can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls

762
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 1: dot com. This episode was produced by Frida Lucas alis

763
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 1: Ellis and Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford.

764
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:16,800
Speaker 1: Thank y'all so much for joining me for this special

765
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 1: TVG Library episode. We'll be back next Wednesday with our

766
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 1: regular episode, Take Good Care, What's