1 00:00:09,664 --> 00:00:13,104 Speaker 1: Mission Implausible is now something you can watch. Just go 2 00:00:13,144 --> 00:00:16,823 Speaker 1: to YouTube and search Mission Implausible podcasts or click on 3 00:00:16,864 --> 00:00:20,864 Speaker 1: the link to our channel. In our show notes, I'm 4 00:00:20,904 --> 00:00:22,064 Speaker 1: John Cipher. 5 00:00:21,664 --> 00:00:22,784 Speaker 2: And I'm Jerry O'Shea. 6 00:00:23,264 --> 00:00:26,624 Speaker 3: We have over sixty years of experience as clandestine officers 7 00:00:26,624 --> 00:00:29,544 Speaker 3: in the CIA, serving in high risk areas all around 8 00:00:29,544 --> 00:00:30,784 Speaker 3: the world, and part. 9 00:00:30,584 --> 00:00:34,504 Speaker 4: Of our job was creating conspiracies to deceive our adversaries. 10 00:00:34,784 --> 00:00:37,504 Speaker 3: Now we're going to use that experience to investigate the 11 00:00:37,504 --> 00:00:40,424 Speaker 3: conspiracy theories everyone's talking about as well as some of 12 00:00:40,464 --> 00:00:41,224 Speaker 3: you may not have heard. 13 00:00:41,304 --> 00:00:43,584 Speaker 2: Could they be true or are we being manipulated? 14 00:00:43,664 --> 00:00:51,264 Speaker 3: We'll find out now on Mission Implausible. Our guest today 15 00:00:51,384 --> 00:00:54,344 Speaker 3: is journalist and author Leah Sattilli. Leah is one of 16 00:00:54,344 --> 00:00:57,424 Speaker 3: the sharpest chroniclers of extremism and fringe movements out there. 17 00:00:57,624 --> 00:01:00,544 Speaker 3: The most recent book is Blazing Eye Sees All, a 18 00:01:00,584 --> 00:01:04,904 Speaker 3: deep investigation into how New Age spirituality, conspiracy theories, and 19 00:01:05,024 --> 00:01:07,784 Speaker 3: power all collide. Reporting has appeared in all sorts of 20 00:01:07,824 --> 00:01:10,104 Speaker 3: outlets like The Washington Post, in New York Times, Magazine, 21 00:01:10,144 --> 00:01:12,664 Speaker 3: Rolling Stone in other places, and she's the host of 22 00:01:12,703 --> 00:01:15,984 Speaker 3: a number of investigative podcasts, including Bundyville, which is a 23 00:01:16,024 --> 00:01:19,863 Speaker 3: personal favorite. Burnwild, two minutes past nine and Hush, So 24 00:01:20,423 --> 00:01:21,264 Speaker 3: welcome to the show. 25 00:01:21,544 --> 00:01:22,624 Speaker 5: Hey, thanks for having me. 26 00:01:23,224 --> 00:01:26,584 Speaker 3: We've spent years reporting on extremism and fringe movements and 27 00:01:26,624 --> 00:01:29,304 Speaker 3: conspiracy thinking what dree to? These kind of stories? 28 00:01:29,584 --> 00:01:33,423 Speaker 5: Actually started my career as an all weekly music journalist. 29 00:01:33,584 --> 00:01:35,824 Speaker 5: So my job used to be a lot more fun 30 00:01:35,863 --> 00:01:38,224 Speaker 5: than it is now. I used to jump in vans 31 00:01:38,344 --> 00:01:42,303 Speaker 5: with bands and go on tour and what's weird actually 32 00:01:42,423 --> 00:01:44,624 Speaker 5: is I think that doing that work as a music 33 00:01:44,664 --> 00:01:48,824 Speaker 5: journalist really prepped me for writing about the fringes of 34 00:01:48,864 --> 00:01:52,584 Speaker 5: America and specifically the West. I think I was introduced 35 00:01:52,624 --> 00:01:56,744 Speaker 5: to a sort of latent anti government mentality that is 36 00:01:56,864 --> 00:02:00,544 Speaker 5: pretty pervasive within punk rock circles, but also within you 37 00:02:00,544 --> 00:02:02,664 Speaker 5: know what you might call the political left. So I 38 00:02:02,744 --> 00:02:04,544 Speaker 5: did that work for a while, and then I became 39 00:02:04,544 --> 00:02:07,264 Speaker 5: a freelance journalist. And when I did that, it actually 40 00:02:07,384 --> 00:02:10,624 Speaker 5: happened to coincide right around when a group of armed 41 00:02:10,664 --> 00:02:14,584 Speaker 5: men took over a bird refuge in Oregon in early 42 00:02:14,704 --> 00:02:17,664 Speaker 5: twenty sixteen and held that refuge because of their anti 43 00:02:17,704 --> 00:02:21,784 Speaker 5: government beliefs and their ideas about public land for forty 44 00:02:21,824 --> 00:02:24,544 Speaker 5: one days. You know, to me, that's you know, I 45 00:02:24,584 --> 00:02:25,664 Speaker 5: live in Oregon and. 46 00:02:25,584 --> 00:02:26,824 Speaker 3: You did they feed the birds? 47 00:02:27,144 --> 00:02:29,424 Speaker 5: No, I don't know what they did with the birds, 48 00:02:29,424 --> 00:02:31,064 Speaker 5: but they certainly did a hell of a lot of 49 00:02:31,144 --> 00:02:34,264 Speaker 5: damage to the place. What was interesting about that was 50 00:02:34,544 --> 00:02:38,424 Speaker 5: I didn't realize until that happened that people who wanted 51 00:02:38,464 --> 00:02:42,264 Speaker 5: to go birding or hiking or camping or that kind 52 00:02:42,264 --> 00:02:44,784 Speaker 5: of thing, that that was controversial, And it opened me 53 00:02:44,864 --> 00:02:47,024 Speaker 5: up to a whole part of the Western United States 54 00:02:47,064 --> 00:02:48,944 Speaker 5: that I didn't really understand was that a lot of 55 00:02:48,944 --> 00:02:51,664 Speaker 5: people think that the land is theirs, and it's theirs 56 00:02:51,704 --> 00:02:53,304 Speaker 5: to do what they want to do with and they 57 00:02:53,344 --> 00:02:55,544 Speaker 5: should be able to make money off of that. So 58 00:02:55,584 --> 00:02:58,864 Speaker 5: that was really the beginning for me of kind of 59 00:02:58,904 --> 00:03:01,904 Speaker 5: reporting on the fringes, but also understanding that a lot 60 00:03:01,944 --> 00:03:04,584 Speaker 5: of people who indulged in those kinds of anti government 61 00:03:04,624 --> 00:03:07,704 Speaker 5: beliefs did so because of conspiracy theories that they have 62 00:03:07,904 --> 00:03:10,824 Speaker 5: about who runs the government and why it is the 63 00:03:10,824 --> 00:03:11,424 Speaker 5: way it is. 64 00:03:11,944 --> 00:03:15,344 Speaker 4: It also cuts across cult lines or religion, right. I mean, 65 00:03:15,624 --> 00:03:19,144 Speaker 4: the Bundy family famously is their Mormon, but they're not 66 00:03:19,424 --> 00:03:22,224 Speaker 4: just Mormon, right, They've got their own sort of odd 67 00:03:22,344 --> 00:03:25,664 Speaker 4: version where the Constitution is inspired. 68 00:03:25,184 --> 00:03:26,544 Speaker 2: By God right. 69 00:03:26,504 --> 00:03:28,984 Speaker 4: Oh, it's a secular thing and they're the only ones 70 00:03:28,984 --> 00:03:31,704 Speaker 4: who can interpret it. You talked about the politics of it, 71 00:03:31,984 --> 00:03:34,224 Speaker 4: What about the theology of it if you will. 72 00:03:34,264 --> 00:03:36,384 Speaker 5: Yeah, for sure. So I mean I think part of 73 00:03:36,424 --> 00:03:39,704 Speaker 5: why the Bundies became so interesting to me was every 74 00:03:39,824 --> 00:03:42,504 Speaker 5: reporter in America for a minute was writing about that 75 00:03:42,584 --> 00:03:46,744 Speaker 5: standoff at the refuge, and I was watching every speech, 76 00:03:46,864 --> 00:03:49,184 Speaker 5: every press conference that they gave, and I was like, 77 00:03:49,384 --> 00:03:51,224 Speaker 5: I feel like there's something more to this, and I 78 00:03:51,264 --> 00:03:53,584 Speaker 5: feel like it reminded me. You know, I grew up 79 00:03:53,664 --> 00:03:55,864 Speaker 5: in the Catholic Church and I went to Catholic school, 80 00:03:55,864 --> 00:03:58,984 Speaker 5: and there was this kind of like religiosity to the 81 00:03:58,984 --> 00:04:01,824 Speaker 5: way they were speaking. So this all culminated with me 82 00:04:02,024 --> 00:04:04,984 Speaker 5: going to Bundy Ranch in Nevada and sitting down with 83 00:04:04,984 --> 00:04:07,864 Speaker 5: the Bundies and talking to them about their interpretation of 84 00:04:07,864 --> 00:04:10,864 Speaker 5: Mormon scripture, which, yes, as you said, is this ultra 85 00:04:10,984 --> 00:04:15,824 Speaker 5: conservative interpretation. It's grounded in this thing called the White 86 00:04:15,904 --> 00:04:19,904 Speaker 5: Horse prophecy, which is not something that the LDS Church 87 00:04:20,064 --> 00:04:23,504 Speaker 5: at all endorses. It's basically a conspiracy theory. But this 88 00:04:23,664 --> 00:04:26,544 Speaker 5: idea that the prophet and founder of the church, Joseph Smith, 89 00:04:26,584 --> 00:04:29,023 Speaker 5: said you know, in the future the Mormons will have 90 00:04:29,104 --> 00:04:31,544 Speaker 5: to save the Constitution from the brink of ruin. It 91 00:04:31,584 --> 00:04:33,384 Speaker 5: was really interesting to say, is that kind of what 92 00:04:33,424 --> 00:04:34,944 Speaker 5: you're doing here? Is that what you believe? And the 93 00:04:34,943 --> 00:04:38,143 Speaker 5: Bundies were saying, yeah, that's what we believe. That was 94 00:04:38,344 --> 00:04:40,904 Speaker 5: couched to me by many academics at the time as 95 00:04:40,984 --> 00:04:42,984 Speaker 5: like that is so out there and not a lot 96 00:04:43,024 --> 00:04:45,703 Speaker 5: of people believe that. After I did that reporting, I 97 00:04:45,743 --> 00:04:49,984 Speaker 5: heard from tons of people from across the West saying, no, no, no, 98 00:04:50,464 --> 00:04:53,303 Speaker 5: the White Horse prophecy is very, very mainstream. A lot 99 00:04:53,344 --> 00:04:55,863 Speaker 5: of people believe that. That was really interesting to me. 100 00:04:55,943 --> 00:04:58,263 Speaker 5: I'm really interested in religion. You know, there was a 101 00:04:58,344 --> 00:05:01,584 Speaker 5: moment in media where every newspaper had a religion reporter. 102 00:05:01,664 --> 00:05:04,264 Speaker 5: Obviously that ship has sailed, But to me, that's kind 103 00:05:04,303 --> 00:05:06,104 Speaker 5: of what I try to do as a freelancer is 104 00:05:06,144 --> 00:05:08,784 Speaker 5: look into these places, and so that's kind of you know, 105 00:05:08,863 --> 00:05:12,544 Speaker 5: led me towards Christian nationalism and some of these groups 106 00:05:12,584 --> 00:05:16,264 Speaker 5: that you know, academics would call new religious movements, the 107 00:05:16,303 --> 00:05:19,024 Speaker 5: public would call cults. It comes up a lot. 108 00:05:19,264 --> 00:05:21,144 Speaker 3: You know, we talked you started talking about the Bundies 109 00:05:21,183 --> 00:05:23,383 Speaker 3: and you've talked to a lot of very interesting people 110 00:05:23,383 --> 00:05:26,664 Speaker 3: in these charismatic leaders of different different groups. I wonder 111 00:05:26,704 --> 00:05:28,624 Speaker 3: what it feels like when you sit with followers of 112 00:05:28,704 --> 00:05:31,824 Speaker 3: these movements. What did their relationship to a charismatic leader 113 00:05:31,943 --> 00:05:35,584 Speaker 3: feel like on a human level? Was it like friendship, therapy, religion, fandom? 114 00:05:35,664 --> 00:05:38,064 Speaker 5: But like I think it's different depending on who you're 115 00:05:38,104 --> 00:05:40,863 Speaker 5: talking to. But as far as the New Age stuff, 116 00:05:40,863 --> 00:05:43,024 Speaker 5: a lot of what I did was talk to people 117 00:05:43,024 --> 00:05:45,183 Speaker 5: who had been a part of this group called Love 118 00:05:45,224 --> 00:05:49,304 Speaker 5: Has Won, which was a group in Colorado, Colorado and 119 00:05:49,424 --> 00:05:55,984 Speaker 5: California an Hawaii brief for very brief. And what's interesting 120 00:05:56,264 --> 00:05:59,424 Speaker 5: is the prevailing thing that I would take away from 121 00:05:59,424 --> 00:06:01,664 Speaker 5: a lot of those interviews is that everybody had some 122 00:06:01,784 --> 00:06:04,383 Speaker 5: scars from that time of being in the group, but 123 00:06:04,664 --> 00:06:08,063 Speaker 5: most people did not regret it. They really thought that 124 00:06:08,144 --> 00:06:10,943 Speaker 5: there was something that they took away from that time 125 00:06:11,024 --> 00:06:14,544 Speaker 5: that was helpful for them. In some cases, some people 126 00:06:14,704 --> 00:06:17,584 Speaker 5: realized it was just a speed bump in keeping them 127 00:06:17,584 --> 00:06:19,824 Speaker 5: from dealing with their problems. The problems that they had 128 00:06:19,823 --> 00:06:21,784 Speaker 5: when they went into the group were still there when 129 00:06:21,784 --> 00:06:23,863 Speaker 5: they got out of it. I mean, I think Amy Carlson, 130 00:06:23,904 --> 00:06:25,583 Speaker 5: the leader of that group, is I think a good 131 00:06:25,623 --> 00:06:28,584 Speaker 5: example of a quote unquote cult leader. She made people 132 00:06:28,664 --> 00:06:32,424 Speaker 5: feel loved, she made them feel seen, She spoke a 133 00:06:32,584 --> 00:06:36,784 Speaker 5: language that they wanted to hear of conspiracy theories and 134 00:06:36,823 --> 00:06:40,824 Speaker 5: alternative histories of the world, but also made her followers 135 00:06:40,823 --> 00:06:43,383 Speaker 5: feel very special that you know, if you were there 136 00:06:43,424 --> 00:06:46,944 Speaker 5: with her, you had woken up and so good for 137 00:06:46,984 --> 00:06:51,063 Speaker 5: you. You're a part of the movement to ascend humanity to 138 00:06:51,303 --> 00:06:54,464 Speaker 5: five D enlightenment and things like that. And I think 139 00:06:54,503 --> 00:06:56,904 Speaker 5: that that's the case with a lot of people. You know, 140 00:06:57,224 --> 00:07:00,863 Speaker 5: my first book was about people within the LDS Church 141 00:07:00,904 --> 00:07:04,344 Speaker 5: who went very far to the extreme and committed a 142 00:07:04,464 --> 00:07:07,743 Speaker 5: series of violent acts because of their interpretation of Mormonism. 143 00:07:08,303 --> 00:07:10,424 Speaker 5: And I would say that the people that follow those 144 00:07:10,464 --> 00:07:13,024 Speaker 5: folks felt the same. You know. I really liked how 145 00:07:13,064 --> 00:07:15,464 Speaker 5: they talked about the church. They made me feel like 146 00:07:15,784 --> 00:07:18,584 Speaker 5: we were taking things one step further, you know, And 147 00:07:18,664 --> 00:07:21,024 Speaker 5: I think that that's a common thing. It's that people 148 00:07:21,144 --> 00:07:23,984 Speaker 5: with their spirituality, they want to level up. You know, 149 00:07:24,024 --> 00:07:27,944 Speaker 5: sometimes just with the mainstream church, whether that's Christian or 150 00:07:27,984 --> 00:07:31,184 Speaker 5: Mormon or whatever, it's just a little too basic. They 151 00:07:31,224 --> 00:07:34,703 Speaker 5: want more, and so people are saying, hey, you seem 152 00:07:34,744 --> 00:07:36,664 Speaker 5: to get that you know what the church is doing 153 00:07:36,744 --> 00:07:38,904 Speaker 5: is kind of mainstream. Let's go a little bit further. 154 00:07:39,424 --> 00:07:42,544 Speaker 4: I have a huge family and some of them are wacky, right, 155 00:07:42,584 --> 00:07:44,784 Speaker 4: I'll just say that. And when I was reading about 156 00:07:44,784 --> 00:07:47,104 Speaker 4: the Bundies, I'm like, oh, they'd fit right in. But 157 00:07:47,144 --> 00:07:49,424 Speaker 4: I have to say, coming back to John and I 158 00:07:49,504 --> 00:07:53,544 Speaker 4: to our experience within Cia, both of us have served 159 00:07:53,584 --> 00:07:57,304 Speaker 4: in places where the Word of God is greater than 160 00:07:57,784 --> 00:08:01,144 Speaker 4: secular laws, right, and where people don't pay taxes, where 161 00:08:01,184 --> 00:08:03,824 Speaker 4: people can own as many guns as they want, where 162 00:08:03,824 --> 00:08:06,224 Speaker 4: people basically, if you're a big man, you can do 163 00:08:06,224 --> 00:08:08,584 Speaker 4: you want. And that's places like we've both served in, 164 00:08:08,624 --> 00:08:11,984 Speaker 4: like Pakistan, right, at least the frontier of it, parts 165 00:08:12,024 --> 00:08:16,664 Speaker 4: of Afghanistan. Somalia's like that, those aren't places that people 166 00:08:16,824 --> 00:08:19,864 Speaker 4: actually want to live in, right, even the people there 167 00:08:19,904 --> 00:08:23,184 Speaker 4: don't want to. And yet I see this on the 168 00:08:23,224 --> 00:08:26,424 Speaker 4: far right and also on the far left, an idealized 169 00:08:26,464 --> 00:08:30,264 Speaker 4: sort of anarchistic state where basically you can do what 170 00:08:30,344 --> 00:08:33,984 Speaker 4: you want, but you still get roads that are paved, 171 00:08:34,064 --> 00:08:36,704 Speaker 4: you still get water you can drink, you still get 172 00:08:36,744 --> 00:08:39,584 Speaker 4: medicines you can take without having to worry about whether 173 00:08:39,584 --> 00:08:40,304 Speaker 4: they're bad or not. 174 00:08:40,584 --> 00:08:42,224 Speaker 5: I think you make a great point, and I think 175 00:08:42,223 --> 00:08:45,463 Speaker 5: that things fall apart very quickly with these sorts of ideas, 176 00:08:45,744 --> 00:08:49,704 Speaker 5: and you realize that it's a sort of fever dream 177 00:08:49,944 --> 00:08:53,024 Speaker 5: of the right to think that this is possible. But 178 00:08:53,184 --> 00:08:57,583 Speaker 5: also it becomes very clear how quickly it is so exclusive. 179 00:08:57,864 --> 00:09:00,623 Speaker 5: It is for you and your white friends who are 180 00:09:00,664 --> 00:09:04,184 Speaker 5: also Mormon, or you and your white friends who are 181 00:09:04,184 --> 00:09:08,144 Speaker 5: also Christian and believe that women should be controlled and 182 00:09:08,264 --> 00:09:11,863 Speaker 5: children should be beaten if someone steals something, their hands 183 00:09:11,904 --> 00:09:15,343 Speaker 5: should be cut off. It's like it's for you and 184 00:09:15,463 --> 00:09:18,304 Speaker 5: it's not for anybody else. And I think that this 185 00:09:18,343 --> 00:09:20,983 Speaker 5: is one big flaw that I would say is in 186 00:09:21,223 --> 00:09:23,904 Speaker 5: the way that the American media has written about these things, 187 00:09:23,984 --> 00:09:26,863 Speaker 5: is that it entertains this like this is some kind 188 00:09:26,904 --> 00:09:30,544 Speaker 5: of plausible scenario that isn't in any it could be 189 00:09:30,624 --> 00:09:33,863 Speaker 5: equitable at all. It's not. It's based in inequality. The 190 00:09:34,024 --> 00:09:36,824 Speaker 5: entire thing is for the benefit of a very few 191 00:09:37,024 --> 00:09:40,264 Speaker 5: privileged people. As people would say, and I'm very much 192 00:09:40,384 --> 00:09:42,584 Speaker 5: not the first person to say this. When those people 193 00:09:42,583 --> 00:09:45,703 Speaker 5: took over the Malleur National Wildlife Refuge, people were very 194 00:09:45,784 --> 00:09:48,064 Speaker 5: drunk on the idea of these guys in Cowboy hats 195 00:09:48,103 --> 00:09:51,464 Speaker 5: doing that. Had that been people of color, had that 196 00:09:51,504 --> 00:09:55,104 Speaker 5: been indigenous people, that would have been construed in a 197 00:09:55,144 --> 00:09:57,463 Speaker 5: completely different way, and it probably wouldn't have gone for 198 00:09:57,463 --> 00:09:58,224 Speaker 5: forty one days. 199 00:09:58,504 --> 00:10:00,824 Speaker 3: Good back to your book. The book is Blazing Eyes 200 00:10:00,864 --> 00:10:03,064 Speaker 3: Sees all. How do you describe it? What patterns of 201 00:10:03,064 --> 00:10:05,583 Speaker 3: belief do you see repeated across the spaces you're poured 202 00:10:05,583 --> 00:10:08,064 Speaker 3: on with the Bundies and others. And then this New 203 00:10:08,103 --> 00:10:09,544 Speaker 3: Age world that you're writing about now. 204 00:10:09,864 --> 00:10:11,623 Speaker 5: And I got to be honest with you too. When 205 00:10:11,664 --> 00:10:14,024 Speaker 5: I took on this project, I was really trying to 206 00:10:14,064 --> 00:10:16,744 Speaker 5: get away from writing about extremism, Like I was, like, 207 00:10:16,784 --> 00:10:19,784 Speaker 5: I need a palate cleanser. You just see people getting 208 00:10:19,824 --> 00:10:22,544 Speaker 5: more and more power. So I took on this idea 209 00:10:22,784 --> 00:10:24,784 Speaker 5: of writing about the New Age movement because I was, 210 00:10:24,904 --> 00:10:26,503 Speaker 5: you know, it's very much in the air in the 211 00:10:26,544 --> 00:10:29,784 Speaker 5: Pacific Northwest where I live. But also during COVID, I 212 00:10:29,824 --> 00:10:33,344 Speaker 5: really saw a lot of people, you know, selling crystals 213 00:10:33,463 --> 00:10:37,024 Speaker 5: and selling these sort of wellness coaching sessions and things 214 00:10:37,103 --> 00:10:39,424 Speaker 5: like that, and it seemed to be getting really popular. 215 00:10:39,504 --> 00:10:42,223 Speaker 5: So I was just really curious about this world. You know, 216 00:10:42,384 --> 00:10:45,064 Speaker 5: is it useful, is it helpful? Is it a cult, 217 00:10:45,184 --> 00:10:48,264 Speaker 5: you know, what's the deal. But unfortunately, I the further 218 00:10:48,304 --> 00:10:51,144 Speaker 5: I got in my reporting, the more I realized that 219 00:10:51,223 --> 00:10:55,224 Speaker 5: there are many shared belief systems with the New Age 220 00:10:55,264 --> 00:10:57,464 Speaker 5: movement as with the far right. And I think that 221 00:10:57,544 --> 00:11:01,144 Speaker 5: surprised me, right, because they're so esthetically different. Guys in 222 00:11:01,304 --> 00:11:05,703 Speaker 5: Camo with air fifteens waving around their pocket constitutions and 223 00:11:06,184 --> 00:11:10,824 Speaker 5: female yoga teachers, you know, wearing kind of lose clothing 224 00:11:10,944 --> 00:11:13,864 Speaker 5: and doing what they do in Sedona or whatever. I 225 00:11:13,944 --> 00:11:16,463 Speaker 5: just couldn't have imagined that there would be common cause. 226 00:11:16,583 --> 00:11:18,344 Speaker 5: And I think that it was kind of ignorant on 227 00:11:18,384 --> 00:11:21,544 Speaker 5: my part. I didn't realize that, you know, the roots 228 00:11:21,544 --> 00:11:26,864 Speaker 5: of so many New Age ideas are grounded in a 229 00:11:26,944 --> 00:11:32,064 Speaker 5: common anti semitism, a common belief about the government being 230 00:11:32,103 --> 00:11:35,664 Speaker 5: filled with corrupt people, and new world order. And I 231 00:11:35,664 --> 00:11:38,024 Speaker 5: think it's important to say that is in no means 232 00:11:38,504 --> 00:11:40,864 Speaker 5: a way of saying that all of the New Age 233 00:11:40,944 --> 00:11:42,463 Speaker 5: is like that. I think, you know, when you talk 234 00:11:42,504 --> 00:11:44,984 Speaker 5: about New Age stuff, you can fit so many things 235 00:11:45,064 --> 00:11:47,904 Speaker 5: under that umbrella, and much of it is very positive 236 00:11:47,944 --> 00:11:50,944 Speaker 5: and healing for people. But I think that, you know, 237 00:11:50,984 --> 00:11:54,184 Speaker 5: we're kind of remiss in not understanding that many of 238 00:11:54,264 --> 00:11:58,064 Speaker 5: the most prominent thinkers in the New Age over the 239 00:11:58,103 --> 00:12:01,824 Speaker 5: past two hundred years have had deep thoughts about who 240 00:12:01,824 --> 00:12:04,064 Speaker 5: this is for and who this is not, and a 241 00:12:04,064 --> 00:12:05,824 Speaker 5: lot of conspiracy theories that are the same. 242 00:12:06,463 --> 00:12:09,223 Speaker 4: This falls into that you gotta be shitting me category, right, 243 00:12:10,984 --> 00:12:13,304 Speaker 4: helped me out here why people would buy into this. 244 00:12:13,343 --> 00:12:17,264 Speaker 4: So for the listeners that Carlson, the person who got 245 00:12:17,264 --> 00:12:20,744 Speaker 4: this started, was a manager at McDonald's, right. Rice married 246 00:12:20,864 --> 00:12:24,184 Speaker 4: manager McDonald's, and she decides, for whatever reason, she's going 247 00:12:24,223 --> 00:12:26,424 Speaker 4: to start a cult or religion. But what she comes 248 00:12:26,504 --> 00:12:30,463 Speaker 4: up with is that she's a nineteen billion year old 249 00:12:30,544 --> 00:12:34,624 Speaker 4: being and she has birthed all creation. She's claimed to 250 00:12:34,664 --> 00:12:40,703 Speaker 4: have been reincarnated five hundred and thirty four times, including Jesus, Cleopatra, 251 00:12:41,304 --> 00:12:44,223 Speaker 4: Joan of Arc and Marilyn Monroe. And she's going to 252 00:12:44,343 --> 00:12:46,904 Speaker 4: lead one hundred and forty four thousand people into the 253 00:12:46,944 --> 00:12:50,944 Speaker 4: mystical fifth dimension. So far, I'm thinking this makes sense, right, 254 00:12:51,024 --> 00:12:53,904 Speaker 4: I mean, I'm buying this. But then we get to 255 00:12:54,544 --> 00:12:59,584 Speaker 4: the angels involved in this, who include Robin Williams and 256 00:12:59,784 --> 00:13:02,224 Speaker 4: Rodney Dangerfield and Whitney Houston. 257 00:13:02,583 --> 00:13:05,264 Speaker 3: Like those guys, Robbie Dangerfield did you ever see him 258 00:13:05,264 --> 00:13:06,064 Speaker 3: in beck to school? 259 00:13:06,103 --> 00:13:06,863 Speaker 2: He was really good. 260 00:13:09,103 --> 00:13:11,184 Speaker 4: This is serious shit, right, you know people went to 261 00:13:11,223 --> 00:13:13,983 Speaker 4: jail and people gave their lives to this. Well A 262 00:13:14,703 --> 00:13:16,944 Speaker 4: how do you keep a straight face when talking about 263 00:13:16,984 --> 00:13:21,463 Speaker 4: the archangel Rodney Dangerfield? And second of all, like, what's 264 00:13:21,504 --> 00:13:23,583 Speaker 4: at the bottom of this? You talk about the bundies? 265 00:13:23,624 --> 00:13:26,064 Speaker 4: You know, I think there is a horseshoe communists and fascists. 266 00:13:26,384 --> 00:13:28,223 Speaker 4: You know, it's not too far because there's so far 267 00:13:28,223 --> 00:13:31,623 Speaker 4: from the center, right, there's a horseshoe. Is it about control? 268 00:13:31,944 --> 00:13:34,784 Speaker 4: Is it, you know, controlling your environment? Is it about 269 00:13:35,384 --> 00:13:36,703 Speaker 4: escape from the outside? 270 00:13:36,784 --> 00:13:36,904 Speaker 2: Right? 271 00:13:37,064 --> 00:13:39,623 Speaker 4: Creating your own reality that's comforting? 272 00:13:39,864 --> 00:13:41,024 Speaker 2: What is it you found? A? 273 00:13:41,144 --> 00:13:44,104 Speaker 4: How could they people buy into this and be, especially 274 00:13:44,223 --> 00:13:47,784 Speaker 4: this one and be what is it that drives human 275 00:13:47,824 --> 00:13:49,464 Speaker 4: beings to want to believe this? 276 00:13:49,583 --> 00:13:49,703 Speaker 2: Right? 277 00:13:50,184 --> 00:13:52,184 Speaker 3: Could it be events too? Not just it could be 278 00:13:52,223 --> 00:13:52,904 Speaker 3: events too? Yeah? 279 00:13:52,984 --> 00:13:55,544 Speaker 5: Yeah, I love that you said that. There's this sort 280 00:13:55,544 --> 00:13:58,104 Speaker 5: of you take your takeaways? Are you shitting me? Because 281 00:13:58,184 --> 00:14:02,104 Speaker 5: so much of my reporting starts with that question of like, 282 00:14:02,784 --> 00:14:04,824 Speaker 5: you got to be kidding me. I had heard about 283 00:14:04,864 --> 00:14:06,824 Speaker 5: love has Won just kind of being a person who 284 00:14:06,904 --> 00:14:08,544 Speaker 5: reports on the sorts of things that I do in 285 00:14:08,583 --> 00:14:10,863 Speaker 5: the West, but really just kind of in passing. I 286 00:14:10,904 --> 00:14:12,984 Speaker 5: think I'd maybe gone to their website and thought this 287 00:14:13,024 --> 00:14:16,304 Speaker 5: looks wacky. But when I heard about Amy Carlson dying, 288 00:14:17,103 --> 00:14:19,584 Speaker 5: that's kind of where the story started for me. Was 289 00:14:19,904 --> 00:14:22,704 Speaker 5: people had rattled off this list of who she was 290 00:14:22,864 --> 00:14:25,344 Speaker 5: in a past life, but the one that kept getting 291 00:14:25,424 --> 00:14:29,264 Speaker 5: repeated from mainstream news outlets was that she also believed 292 00:14:29,264 --> 00:14:31,784 Speaker 5: she was the queen of Lemuria. And I was like, 293 00:14:31,984 --> 00:14:34,304 Speaker 5: I don't know what that is. Is there something missing? 294 00:14:34,744 --> 00:14:36,784 Speaker 5: Does everybody else know what that is? So it's just 295 00:14:36,784 --> 00:14:39,544 Speaker 5: like a basic question of it. Where is Lemuria? That 296 00:14:39,664 --> 00:14:43,184 Speaker 5: was where I started reporting, was just like probably a 297 00:14:43,264 --> 00:14:45,624 Speaker 5: quick Google search of what is Lemuria? And then I 298 00:14:45,664 --> 00:14:49,544 Speaker 5: found out Lemuria is like this fabled lost civilization like 299 00:14:49,584 --> 00:14:53,184 Speaker 5: Atlantis but somehow like more Garden of eden Esk or something. 300 00:14:53,504 --> 00:14:55,904 Speaker 5: I'm always trying to reach the bottom of where these 301 00:14:55,944 --> 00:14:59,544 Speaker 5: ideas come from. Where is the starting point for this? 302 00:15:00,024 --> 00:15:02,624 Speaker 5: And what I found out was the starting point was 303 00:15:02,664 --> 00:15:06,024 Speaker 5: the scientific theory about Lemurs, And I was like, that 304 00:15:06,144 --> 00:15:09,384 Speaker 5: is so weird, really like this has to do with lemurs. 305 00:15:09,424 --> 00:15:11,784 Speaker 5: Like to me, it was so weird and so curious. 306 00:15:11,864 --> 00:15:14,104 Speaker 5: Amy is hardly the first person that believed she was 307 00:15:14,144 --> 00:15:16,144 Speaker 5: the Queen of La Maria. You go back one hundred 308 00:15:16,184 --> 00:15:18,544 Speaker 5: and two hundred years, there's a lot of ladies who 309 00:15:18,784 --> 00:15:21,784 Speaker 5: thought they were the Queen of Maria. So that, you know, 310 00:15:21,944 --> 00:15:24,624 Speaker 5: is one thing. So we flashed back to the eighteen 311 00:15:24,664 --> 00:15:28,664 Speaker 5: fifties and spiritualism and channeling and things like that, and 312 00:15:28,744 --> 00:15:33,104 Speaker 5: in each each iteration, I saw a woman in a 313 00:15:33,144 --> 00:15:37,384 Speaker 5: lot of cases assembling a religious belief system that for me, 314 00:15:37,584 --> 00:15:40,184 Speaker 5: Catholicism is a good touchstone. Had a kind of like 315 00:15:40,424 --> 00:15:45,624 Speaker 5: saints like Catholics might, and they were, you know, Saint Germaine. 316 00:15:46,104 --> 00:15:49,263 Speaker 5: They were, you know, these kind of different people that 317 00:15:49,704 --> 00:15:52,024 Speaker 5: no Christian has ever read about in the Bible sort 318 00:15:52,024 --> 00:15:54,864 Speaker 5: of thing. When those ideas kind of marched along in 319 00:15:54,984 --> 00:15:59,704 Speaker 5: time to the current moment, they got to Amy Carlson's head, 320 00:15:59,744 --> 00:16:02,584 Speaker 5: and so she assembled a canon of saints, if you will, 321 00:16:03,064 --> 00:16:06,064 Speaker 5: that were pop culture stars. And to me that was 322 00:16:06,144 --> 00:16:10,144 Speaker 5: so funny. But when I spoke to people who were 323 00:16:10,904 --> 00:16:13,584 Speaker 5: you know, kind of sucked into the group, they talked 324 00:16:13,624 --> 00:16:16,984 Speaker 5: about how those weren't actually ridiculous. So Robin Williams is 325 00:16:16,984 --> 00:16:19,144 Speaker 5: the big one. Robin Williams was like the Chief Saint. 326 00:16:19,504 --> 00:16:22,383 Speaker 5: But I had someone explain it to me that this 327 00:16:22,704 --> 00:16:26,544 Speaker 5: cult was primarily online. It was on the Internet, so 328 00:16:26,664 --> 00:16:30,143 Speaker 5: they were just chatting with people on Facebook and livestream 329 00:16:30,264 --> 00:16:33,904 Speaker 5: comments and chat rooms. And when Robin Williams came up, 330 00:16:33,984 --> 00:16:37,544 Speaker 5: this specific individual I'm thinking of, she said to me, Oh, 331 00:16:37,584 --> 00:16:40,224 Speaker 5: I love Robin Williams. I love Robin Williams movies. I'm 332 00:16:40,264 --> 00:16:42,704 Speaker 5: so sad about him dying, and so I just started 333 00:16:42,704 --> 00:16:45,384 Speaker 5: talking about my favorite movie. And it was really just 334 00:16:45,464 --> 00:16:47,904 Speaker 5: that simple that they were like, oh, you like him too, 335 00:16:48,144 --> 00:16:50,824 Speaker 5: then you get it because he was really enlightened, and 336 00:16:50,864 --> 00:16:54,624 Speaker 5: obviously you see that through his passionate performances. So it 337 00:16:54,704 --> 00:16:59,184 Speaker 5: was this like shared touchstone that could both for love 338 00:16:59,224 --> 00:17:01,704 Speaker 5: has won, it could suck people in. And for this 339 00:17:02,184 --> 00:17:04,303 Speaker 5: woman who was telling me this, she said, it just 340 00:17:04,344 --> 00:17:07,384 Speaker 5: made me feel so like included in the conversation. But 341 00:17:07,544 --> 00:17:11,664 Speaker 5: you see how it worked as just getting somebody who's 342 00:17:11,704 --> 00:17:14,344 Speaker 5: lonely on the internet to feel like, oh, I have 343 00:17:14,424 --> 00:17:16,984 Speaker 5: this common thing with these people, and they're telling me 344 00:17:17,584 --> 00:17:20,784 Speaker 5: if I like these films that I get it in 345 00:17:20,824 --> 00:17:23,984 Speaker 5: a way, and I'm smarter than other people. So that's 346 00:17:23,984 --> 00:17:25,744 Speaker 5: one thing I mean. And I think you know, how 347 00:17:25,744 --> 00:17:28,984 Speaker 5: could anyone buy into this? I think that the common 348 00:17:29,104 --> 00:17:32,464 Speaker 5: story that I heard is that each person had gone 349 00:17:32,584 --> 00:17:36,264 Speaker 5: through a hard time in life. They'd been in a 350 00:17:36,304 --> 00:17:39,144 Speaker 5: relationship and their boyfriend broke up with them. There's a 351 00:17:39,184 --> 00:17:42,504 Speaker 5: woman who lost her law license. There was a woman 352 00:17:42,544 --> 00:17:45,944 Speaker 5: who'd gone through substance abuse issues and was kind of 353 00:17:45,944 --> 00:17:49,104 Speaker 5: coming out of it. Someone who'd moved across the country 354 00:17:49,584 --> 00:17:52,104 Speaker 5: and was just feeling unmoored in their community. You know, 355 00:17:52,104 --> 00:17:55,064 Speaker 5: it was nothing particularly major. It was just these speed 356 00:17:55,104 --> 00:17:58,344 Speaker 5: bumps that we all go through in life. And they 357 00:17:58,384 --> 00:18:02,584 Speaker 5: also happened to be conspiratorially minded people, and so, you know, 358 00:18:02,624 --> 00:18:05,144 Speaker 5: almost all of them were up late one night on 359 00:18:05,184 --> 00:18:09,824 Speaker 5: Facebook looking at alien stuff, for bigfoot stuff, or you know, 360 00:18:09,904 --> 00:18:12,224 Speaker 5: nine to eleven truther forums, and all of a sudden, 361 00:18:12,224 --> 00:18:14,584 Speaker 5: they see a link to this group that's live streaming, 362 00:18:14,624 --> 00:18:17,104 Speaker 5: and they seem really happy. And that's just as easy 363 00:18:17,144 --> 00:18:19,624 Speaker 5: as it as it was for this group to find 364 00:18:19,664 --> 00:18:20,464 Speaker 5: new followers. 365 00:18:32,704 --> 00:18:35,344 Speaker 3: When someone you're interviewing is telling you something you know 366 00:18:35,664 --> 00:18:38,144 Speaker 3: is false or crazy, in some of these cases, the 367 00:18:38,184 --> 00:18:41,224 Speaker 3: conspiracy theory of fake historical claim, what's your strategy and 368 00:18:41,224 --> 00:18:43,584 Speaker 3: then moment, how do you engage with those people. As 369 00:18:43,584 --> 00:18:46,944 Speaker 3: a reporter, like you try it because as CIA officers, 370 00:18:47,144 --> 00:18:51,344 Speaker 3: our job is to befriend people, to build relationships with people, 371 00:18:51,344 --> 00:18:53,424 Speaker 3: and sometimes people that are involved in some bad things. 372 00:18:53,424 --> 00:18:55,824 Speaker 3: So I'm interested in how you do it as a reporter. 373 00:18:55,984 --> 00:18:59,584 Speaker 5: I think over time, I've come to delineate facts versus truth. 374 00:18:59,864 --> 00:19:01,944 Speaker 5: You know, facts are things that I can say, this 375 00:19:02,104 --> 00:19:05,384 Speaker 5: is provable, and this is the reason, and here's the 376 00:19:05,424 --> 00:19:08,064 Speaker 5: study or the statistic of a thing happen. Here's the 377 00:19:08,144 --> 00:19:11,144 Speaker 5: video footage of a thing happening. Truth, I think is 378 00:19:11,144 --> 00:19:14,263 Speaker 5: a little more squishy because what's true for me is 379 00:19:14,824 --> 00:19:18,024 Speaker 5: maybe different than what's true for you. And I think 380 00:19:18,104 --> 00:19:21,664 Speaker 5: that that's a helpful thing in having conversations with people 381 00:19:21,744 --> 00:19:24,384 Speaker 5: who have beliefs that I'm like, wow, that's wild. I 382 00:19:24,424 --> 00:19:27,344 Speaker 5: think as a journalist, in reporting on these spaces, none 383 00:19:27,384 --> 00:19:31,624 Speaker 5: of us can prove that Jesus was resurrected. None of 384 00:19:31,704 --> 00:19:34,784 Speaker 5: us can prove that that's true for a lot of people. 385 00:19:35,024 --> 00:19:38,344 Speaker 5: But it doesn't exactly mean it's fact. So I think 386 00:19:38,344 --> 00:19:40,384 Speaker 5: that you could take that and you could apply that 387 00:19:40,544 --> 00:19:43,584 Speaker 5: to quite a lot of belief systems. I will challenge 388 00:19:43,624 --> 00:19:46,424 Speaker 5: people and say, I don't know, you know, with the Bundies. 389 00:19:46,864 --> 00:19:49,464 Speaker 5: I mean I sat in there ranch for hours and said, 390 00:19:49,744 --> 00:19:51,824 Speaker 5: the church in Salt Lake City doesn't believe in this 391 00:19:51,864 --> 00:19:53,984 Speaker 5: stuff that you're talking about though, right, So like, how 392 00:19:54,024 --> 00:19:56,944 Speaker 5: do you reconcile that you're going against what the leadership 393 00:19:56,944 --> 00:19:59,704 Speaker 5: of the church says is what the Mormon Church believes? 394 00:19:59,784 --> 00:20:02,224 Speaker 5: And you know they explain that. So I think for me, 395 00:20:02,464 --> 00:20:07,664 Speaker 5: it's about allowing people to feel comfortable to express what 396 00:20:07,704 --> 00:20:10,744 Speaker 5: they believe and share they want to be heard and say, 397 00:20:10,904 --> 00:20:12,784 Speaker 5: you know, this woman wants to hear what we believe, 398 00:20:12,904 --> 00:20:15,304 Speaker 5: but also pushing back and saying, like, but what you're 399 00:20:15,384 --> 00:20:18,344 Speaker 5: saying is grounded in a hatred of Jews? Right, Can 400 00:20:18,384 --> 00:20:20,424 Speaker 5: we talk about that? So I tried not to flinch 401 00:20:20,504 --> 00:20:22,944 Speaker 5: away from it. I think it's about understanding and then 402 00:20:22,984 --> 00:20:25,783 Speaker 5: being able to have a conversation with people about it. 403 00:20:26,104 --> 00:20:27,944 Speaker 3: Have you ever been in a scary situation that you 404 00:20:27,944 --> 00:20:30,464 Speaker 3: were actually in nervous for your safety? Yeah? 405 00:20:30,544 --> 00:20:32,664 Speaker 5: Not the ones you would think. If you all listen 406 00:20:32,704 --> 00:20:35,344 Speaker 5: to Bundyville there there's a scene in the second season 407 00:20:35,384 --> 00:20:37,184 Speaker 5: where I go and interview a guy who tried to 408 00:20:37,384 --> 00:20:41,384 Speaker 5: blow up a building and was what was unsuccessful in 409 00:20:41,464 --> 00:20:43,384 Speaker 5: doing that? And I go to meet him at a 410 00:20:43,384 --> 00:20:46,304 Speaker 5: truck stop. And the night before I was explaining to 411 00:20:46,384 --> 00:20:49,104 Speaker 5: my family that I was, oh, yeah, tomorrow I'm going 412 00:20:49,144 --> 00:20:50,984 Speaker 5: to go meet with this guy and you know, at 413 00:20:50,984 --> 00:20:53,023 Speaker 5: this truck stop outside of cel Lake who blew up 414 00:20:53,024 --> 00:20:55,624 Speaker 5: a building and their faces told me like, are you 415 00:20:55,704 --> 00:20:57,944 Speaker 5: sure you want to do that? And I was like, oh, okay, yeah, 416 00:20:57,984 --> 00:20:59,984 Speaker 5: all right, I'll call you when I'm done, and if 417 00:21:00,024 --> 00:21:02,184 Speaker 5: you haven't heard from me, you should probably call the police. Like, 418 00:21:02,704 --> 00:21:06,384 Speaker 5: but I think my understanding of violence isn't always that 419 00:21:06,464 --> 00:21:08,704 Speaker 5: the people that you think are going to be violent 420 00:21:08,704 --> 00:21:10,384 Speaker 5: are the ones that will do It's the ones that 421 00:21:10,424 --> 00:21:13,464 Speaker 5: you think are, you know, more up and up on things. 422 00:21:13,704 --> 00:21:16,784 Speaker 5: So yeah, I've certainly been scared. The toughest reporting that 423 00:21:16,824 --> 00:21:19,064 Speaker 5: I've done with another reporter, and I think that's a 424 00:21:19,104 --> 00:21:22,984 Speaker 5: really good way to operate for reporters writing about extremist 425 00:21:23,024 --> 00:21:25,664 Speaker 5: ideas is probably don't go alone. And this may be 426 00:21:25,704 --> 00:21:28,184 Speaker 5: a tactical you all use. I tend to find that 427 00:21:28,224 --> 00:21:31,224 Speaker 5: there's a good cop bad cop you can play that sometimes. 428 00:21:31,384 --> 00:21:34,624 Speaker 5: For example, the bomber in the truck stop didn't particularly 429 00:21:34,744 --> 00:21:37,064 Speaker 5: like me, but he liked my co reporter a lot, 430 00:21:37,344 --> 00:21:39,064 Speaker 5: so I would ask the questions. He would give the 431 00:21:39,104 --> 00:21:41,824 Speaker 5: answers to my co reporter, and so I thought, okay, well, 432 00:21:42,024 --> 00:21:43,664 Speaker 5: that can be kind of the bad cop here and 433 00:21:43,704 --> 00:21:46,384 Speaker 5: ask the tough questions because he thinks this other guy's 434 00:21:46,424 --> 00:21:48,064 Speaker 5: his buddy that works for me. 435 00:21:48,504 --> 00:21:50,984 Speaker 4: We should compare notes because John and I in our 436 00:21:51,024 --> 00:21:53,784 Speaker 4: past lives we also had to meet people who had 437 00:21:53,944 --> 00:21:56,104 Speaker 4: blown up buildings that were threatening too to try to 438 00:21:56,664 --> 00:21:58,904 Speaker 4: try to recruit them, not to or to inform on 439 00:21:59,024 --> 00:22:00,664 Speaker 4: guys who were still blowing up buildings. 440 00:22:00,744 --> 00:22:01,944 Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, it's a little awkward. 441 00:22:02,144 --> 00:22:03,104 Speaker 2: This is a little awkward. 442 00:22:03,224 --> 00:22:03,384 Speaker 3: Yeah. 443 00:22:03,984 --> 00:22:07,344 Speaker 4: I was talking to this one guy and he's talking 444 00:22:07,344 --> 00:22:09,704 Speaker 4: about a tax out American troops in Afghanistan, and he's 445 00:22:09,744 --> 00:22:11,744 Speaker 4: sort of talking about the different weaponry. And I was 446 00:22:11,784 --> 00:22:14,023 Speaker 4: sitting with some Navy seals and they're lasting asking him 447 00:22:14,064 --> 00:22:16,344 Speaker 4: some really detailed questions about the kinds of weapons, and 448 00:22:16,344 --> 00:22:17,904 Speaker 4: he goes, well, Carol, it's just. 449 00:22:17,864 --> 00:22:18,544 Speaker 2: Easier to do this. 450 00:22:18,944 --> 00:22:21,224 Speaker 4: And we're sitting on the floor and he reaches under 451 00:22:21,264 --> 00:22:24,584 Speaker 4: this bed, this tarpoi, he's got this rope bed and 452 00:22:24,624 --> 00:22:27,904 Speaker 4: he pulls out this like automatic weapon and a couple 453 00:22:27,984 --> 00:22:29,664 Speaker 4: of land mines. He goes, these are what. 454 00:22:29,584 --> 00:22:33,264 Speaker 2: We use and I'm like, oh, okay, good to know. 455 00:22:34,024 --> 00:22:37,824 Speaker 4: I had a question about escape, control and separation. A 456 00:22:37,864 --> 00:22:40,664 Speaker 4: lot of these these movements, if you will, or communities, 457 00:22:40,704 --> 00:22:43,384 Speaker 4: in order to survive and thrive, it seems to me 458 00:22:43,464 --> 00:22:47,144 Speaker 4: they often have to remove themselves from like regular society, 459 00:22:47,224 --> 00:22:49,104 Speaker 4: right because it's hard to compete with that. They want 460 00:22:49,104 --> 00:22:51,784 Speaker 4: to create a separate and so as an antarct I 461 00:22:51,824 --> 00:22:54,064 Speaker 4: want to say, I live in Hawaii and I was 462 00:22:54,424 --> 00:22:58,504 Speaker 4: shocked to find that both the Love Will there was 463 00:22:58,504 --> 00:23:01,064 Speaker 4: a Love Will Wind was in Kauhai, the north Shore. 464 00:23:01,464 --> 00:23:03,304 Speaker 5: Love That's one, Yeah, yeah it was one. 465 00:23:03,464 --> 00:23:06,904 Speaker 4: But also the the val Day bells were also up 466 00:23:06,904 --> 00:23:10,184 Speaker 4: in northern Kawai. But you've got Tulsi Gabber Science of 467 00:23:10,224 --> 00:23:13,344 Speaker 4: Identity Foundation, which is a I'm sorry, it's a kooky 468 00:23:13,864 --> 00:23:15,424 Speaker 4: Even the Harvey Christmas kick. 469 00:23:15,344 --> 00:23:15,944 Speaker 2: Them out, you know. 470 00:23:16,064 --> 00:23:17,984 Speaker 4: It's like they were too weird for the Harvey Christians. 471 00:23:18,224 --> 00:23:20,584 Speaker 4: Hawaii seems to not breathe them, but people seemed to 472 00:23:20,664 --> 00:23:24,304 Speaker 4: come here. I think places like northern Idaho or or 473 00:23:24,384 --> 00:23:27,424 Speaker 4: places like that that are isolated where you can control 474 00:23:27,464 --> 00:23:30,784 Speaker 4: the society. They can escape from society where you could 475 00:23:30,784 --> 00:23:31,944 Speaker 4: control a community. 476 00:23:32,224 --> 00:23:34,664 Speaker 5: Now you're making me think like I should be reporting 477 00:23:34,744 --> 00:23:36,664 Speaker 5: in Hawaii. I guess I got to take a trip 478 00:23:36,664 --> 00:23:38,904 Speaker 5: there to really do this straight. No, that was one 479 00:23:38,944 --> 00:23:41,824 Speaker 5: thing early on and understanding love has one that appealed 480 00:23:41,864 --> 00:23:43,504 Speaker 5: to me was I was like, you got to be kidding. 481 00:23:43,504 --> 00:23:45,824 Speaker 5: They were in Kawai too, because that's where Laurian Chad 482 00:23:45,864 --> 00:23:46,584 Speaker 5: tried to flee to. 483 00:23:46,944 --> 00:23:50,144 Speaker 4: They were miles of each other. I know that area really. 484 00:23:49,904 --> 00:23:52,944 Speaker 5: Well for Laurian Chad. They just seemed to think that 485 00:23:52,984 --> 00:23:55,464 Speaker 5: they could that they were going to somehow live in 486 00:23:55,664 --> 00:23:57,864 Speaker 5: like off a golf course and no one would ever 487 00:23:57,904 --> 00:23:59,824 Speaker 5: find them or something there. I'm not quite sure what 488 00:23:59,904 --> 00:24:02,464 Speaker 5: their endgame was or how long they thought that was 489 00:24:02,504 --> 00:24:04,424 Speaker 5: going to last. I don't know that they had any 490 00:24:04,464 --> 00:24:07,304 Speaker 5: plans to stay there long term. They were just staying 491 00:24:07,304 --> 00:24:09,944 Speaker 5: in an airbnb. And actually a lot of people talked 492 00:24:09,944 --> 00:24:12,384 Speaker 5: about that Amy did not want to go to Hawaii. 493 00:24:12,504 --> 00:24:15,144 Speaker 5: It was her father, God of the Moment, that had 494 00:24:15,304 --> 00:24:17,584 Speaker 5: hatched that plan for her to go to Hawaii. But 495 00:24:18,224 --> 00:24:22,584 Speaker 5: nonetheless your point stance, I mean, they lived in Crestone, Colorado, 496 00:24:22,704 --> 00:24:25,904 Speaker 5: which is notorious for people who want to have their 497 00:24:25,984 --> 00:24:31,784 Speaker 5: kind of alieny New ag fantasies, but also Mount Shasta 498 00:24:31,944 --> 00:24:34,744 Speaker 5: and Mount Shasta was what really played into my reporting 499 00:24:34,824 --> 00:24:37,384 Speaker 5: is that there's just this long history of people thinking 500 00:24:37,784 --> 00:24:41,744 Speaker 5: the mountain has this that it's a vortex, that it's 501 00:24:41,744 --> 00:24:45,344 Speaker 5: a spiritual center for people. I think in each case 502 00:24:45,984 --> 00:24:49,704 Speaker 5: it required followers to leave their lives. They were coming 503 00:24:49,704 --> 00:24:53,344 Speaker 5: from really far away to come be with Amy. And 504 00:24:53,744 --> 00:24:58,224 Speaker 5: I think in talking about this escape to control scenario, 505 00:24:58,664 --> 00:25:02,904 Speaker 5: when people would arrive to the Love has One's house 506 00:25:02,944 --> 00:25:05,584 Speaker 5: of the moment, they would get a new name, you know. 507 00:25:05,664 --> 00:25:09,184 Speaker 5: So Amy Carlson became Mother God. One of her most 508 00:25:09,264 --> 00:25:14,384 Speaker 5: loyal deputies went from Lauren to Aurora. Another woman was 509 00:25:14,504 --> 00:25:17,144 Speaker 5: Abigail and she was named Faith. You know, they all 510 00:25:17,184 --> 00:25:20,504 Speaker 5: got new names, and I think that was part of 511 00:25:20,544 --> 00:25:24,384 Speaker 5: this control that like here you are a different person 512 00:25:24,624 --> 00:25:28,144 Speaker 5: than the person who was experiencing loss and hardship back 513 00:25:28,184 --> 00:25:32,384 Speaker 5: at home. And that is extremely common within this kind 514 00:25:32,424 --> 00:25:35,944 Speaker 5: of group that I was observing, where specifically the female 515 00:25:36,064 --> 00:25:41,784 Speaker 5: leaders all went underwent some sort of identity transformation. Whether 516 00:25:41,824 --> 00:25:44,304 Speaker 5: that was Amy, whether that was Jay Z. Knight who 517 00:25:44,424 --> 00:25:48,144 Speaker 5: runs a group in Washington State right now, whether that 518 00:25:48,384 --> 00:25:52,624 Speaker 5: was Elizabeth Claire prophet, they all had were called Mother. 519 00:25:53,144 --> 00:25:54,984 Speaker 5: So I think that's part of it is that they 520 00:25:55,024 --> 00:25:59,024 Speaker 5: do that for themselves and they're creating a new reality 521 00:25:59,184 --> 00:26:01,104 Speaker 5: for everybody to live in. I think that's a really 522 00:26:01,104 --> 00:26:03,704 Speaker 5: important thing, and people start to feel really close to 523 00:26:03,784 --> 00:26:06,784 Speaker 5: that new identity. It's like an extreme version of when 524 00:26:06,784 --> 00:26:09,464 Speaker 5: you went to college and you like could leave that 525 00:26:09,744 --> 00:26:12,304 Speaker 5: person behind that you were in high school and in 526 00:26:12,344 --> 00:26:14,864 Speaker 5: college you're just like a new person. It's like the 527 00:26:14,944 --> 00:26:17,263 Speaker 5: religious extreme version of that. 528 00:26:17,584 --> 00:26:20,384 Speaker 3: So you're becoming an expert on sort of these radicalized groups. 529 00:26:20,584 --> 00:26:24,464 Speaker 3: Are there narratives about how radicalization works that you think 530 00:26:24,504 --> 00:26:25,744 Speaker 3: the media keeps getting wrong? 531 00:26:25,904 --> 00:26:30,704 Speaker 5: I think that one big thing that what big beef 532 00:26:30,744 --> 00:26:33,264 Speaker 5: that I have is that you know, in the West, 533 00:26:33,544 --> 00:26:37,504 Speaker 5: it's I mean across the country news deserts are a thing, 534 00:26:37,904 --> 00:26:41,384 Speaker 5: but increasingly so in the West, and so a lot 535 00:26:41,424 --> 00:26:43,784 Speaker 5: of times when stuff like this happens, we have like 536 00:26:43,904 --> 00:26:47,424 Speaker 5: helicopter journalism of the worst kind, where people come out 537 00:26:47,504 --> 00:26:50,344 Speaker 5: instead of sending local reporters that are laid off from 538 00:26:50,464 --> 00:26:54,224 Speaker 5: jobs in Oregon, for example, you helicopter and people from 539 00:26:54,224 --> 00:26:56,024 Speaker 5: who in New York who see a guy with a 540 00:26:56,024 --> 00:26:59,144 Speaker 5: cowboy hat talking about the Constitution, and it becomes a 541 00:26:59,224 --> 00:27:01,784 Speaker 5: story of rural America, when in fact it is not. 542 00:27:02,504 --> 00:27:04,784 Speaker 5: I use the Bundies as a great example. You will 543 00:27:04,824 --> 00:27:07,744 Speaker 5: find almost no rancher that agrees with the bundies, and 544 00:27:07,784 --> 00:27:11,304 Speaker 5: in fact they are not ranchers. That's a big misconception. 545 00:27:11,744 --> 00:27:14,184 Speaker 5: They own one hundred and sixty acres of land where 546 00:27:14,184 --> 00:27:16,824 Speaker 5: they grow melons and have some cows. You talk to 547 00:27:16,864 --> 00:27:18,984 Speaker 5: any rancher in Montana or Texas, that's going to be 548 00:27:18,984 --> 00:27:21,864 Speaker 5: offensive to say you can ranch on one hundred and 549 00:27:21,864 --> 00:27:24,984 Speaker 5: sixty acres. So you know, there's that. But I think 550 00:27:25,024 --> 00:27:29,984 Speaker 5: in terms of radicalization, it becomes these stories become stories 551 00:27:30,024 --> 00:27:34,224 Speaker 5: of people over there, out there different than you in 552 00:27:34,504 --> 00:27:38,704 Speaker 5: rural America, out there in the weird West, you know, 553 00:27:39,424 --> 00:27:42,984 Speaker 5: where marijuana was legal before it was in civil society. 554 00:27:43,064 --> 00:27:46,144 Speaker 5: You know, it's stuff like that. What all these stories 555 00:27:46,184 --> 00:27:49,024 Speaker 5: have told me is that extremism is right next door 556 00:27:49,024 --> 00:27:52,024 Speaker 5: to you. It's in New York City, it's in Chicago, 557 00:27:52,624 --> 00:27:55,104 Speaker 5: it's in Portland. It's also in rural America. It's a 558 00:27:55,144 --> 00:27:59,264 Speaker 5: mentality and it's attractive to people because it fills some 559 00:27:59,344 --> 00:28:02,344 Speaker 5: kind of a void, It answers some kind of question. 560 00:28:02,544 --> 00:28:04,783 Speaker 5: I think it speaks to much deeper issues about what 561 00:28:04,784 --> 00:28:09,064 Speaker 5: we prize and value in America. One expert i've spoken 562 00:28:09,064 --> 00:28:11,984 Speaker 5: to quite as Stephen Hassen. I'm sure you've heard his 563 00:28:12,224 --> 00:28:15,664 Speaker 5: work before on cults, and he wrote a book called 564 00:28:15,664 --> 00:28:18,144 Speaker 5: The Cult of Trump, and he talks a lot about, 565 00:28:18,184 --> 00:28:20,344 Speaker 5: you know, Trump as a cult leader and things like that, 566 00:28:20,384 --> 00:28:23,424 Speaker 5: and I think that is accurate to sort of understand 567 00:28:23,944 --> 00:28:28,104 Speaker 5: how people who are clearly not benefiting love and admire 568 00:28:28,184 --> 00:28:31,384 Speaker 5: and revere a person it borders on religious. I think 569 00:28:31,384 --> 00:28:34,144 Speaker 5: the other thing is that people often think that people 570 00:28:34,144 --> 00:28:36,904 Speaker 5: who believe in these things are dumb, but there are 571 00:28:37,024 --> 00:28:41,384 Speaker 5: people who feel some fulfillment that is deeper than just 572 00:28:41,464 --> 00:28:43,904 Speaker 5: intellectual And I think when we start to talk about 573 00:28:43,984 --> 00:28:48,384 Speaker 5: radicalization in religious terms, it becomes a little bit easier 574 00:28:48,384 --> 00:28:52,264 Speaker 5: to understand that people can't always explain why they have 575 00:28:52,384 --> 00:28:54,904 Speaker 5: the beliefs that they have, the spiritual beliefs that they have. 576 00:28:55,024 --> 00:28:56,504 Speaker 5: And I think if we talk about a little bit 577 00:28:56,544 --> 00:29:00,864 Speaker 5: more like religion and less like politics and logic, it 578 00:29:00,944 --> 00:29:03,144 Speaker 5: might be easier to understand. 579 00:29:02,864 --> 00:29:05,144 Speaker 3: That makes sense for believers. Of any of the people 580 00:29:05,184 --> 00:29:06,904 Speaker 3: you've talked to, did you ever get a sense that 581 00:29:06,944 --> 00:29:09,064 Speaker 3: it was just a clear scam or was it always 582 00:29:09,624 --> 00:29:11,464 Speaker 3: talk themselves into actually believing these things? 583 00:29:11,624 --> 00:29:14,544 Speaker 5: I think a lot of the people who were a 584 00:29:14,584 --> 00:29:17,464 Speaker 5: part of Love has One see that there were scammy 585 00:29:17,584 --> 00:29:21,144 Speaker 5: elements to it, right, Like Amy wanted to buy phone 586 00:29:21,224 --> 00:29:24,584 Speaker 5: games and she wanted that ATV and like they could 587 00:29:24,584 --> 00:29:27,024 Speaker 5: see now that their money, you know, when they were 588 00:29:27,024 --> 00:29:29,544 Speaker 5: buying all this crap that Love Has Won was selling, 589 00:29:29,664 --> 00:29:34,264 Speaker 5: like coloidal silver and crystals and candles and paintings and 590 00:29:34,264 --> 00:29:35,904 Speaker 5: stuff like that. It was all just to kind of 591 00:29:35,984 --> 00:29:38,144 Speaker 5: like it was a grift. So I think a lot 592 00:29:38,184 --> 00:29:40,184 Speaker 5: of people who were a part of that, they may 593 00:29:40,224 --> 00:29:42,384 Speaker 5: say like, yeah, I took something away from it, but 594 00:29:42,504 --> 00:29:44,544 Speaker 5: I did lose a lot of money in that I 595 00:29:44,624 --> 00:29:47,064 Speaker 5: regret the most. So yeah, I think that that's a 596 00:29:47,184 --> 00:29:48,624 Speaker 5: you know, a big thing. I think a lot of 597 00:29:48,624 --> 00:29:51,904 Speaker 5: people who were around the bundies in twenty sixteen and 598 00:29:51,944 --> 00:29:55,144 Speaker 5: maybe were really excited about their ideas saw like I 599 00:29:55,184 --> 00:29:57,264 Speaker 5: never really got anything for that, and I gave them 600 00:29:57,264 --> 00:30:00,304 Speaker 5: a lot of money. So yeah, the jig starts to 601 00:30:00,304 --> 00:30:01,584 Speaker 5: fall apart after enough time. 602 00:30:01,704 --> 00:30:05,704 Speaker 4: So we've dealt with al Qaeda and even darker iceis 603 00:30:05,784 --> 00:30:07,664 Speaker 4: I mean, that is a death cult, right, I mean 604 00:30:07,664 --> 00:30:10,984 Speaker 4: it's like, no, I will kill my family right in 605 00:30:11,104 --> 00:30:13,944 Speaker 4: order to pursue this goal. And I'll kill myself and 606 00:30:13,984 --> 00:30:17,944 Speaker 4: I will kill innocent people knowingly. In fact, an Afghan 607 00:30:17,984 --> 00:30:21,104 Speaker 4: I worked very closely with who we helped and was 608 00:30:21,104 --> 00:30:24,224 Speaker 4: one of our allies in Afghanistan. He helped build a 609 00:30:24,264 --> 00:30:28,784 Speaker 4: women's school and al Qaeda walked in a thirteen year 610 00:30:28,864 --> 00:30:32,984 Speaker 4: old boy who was mentally deficient, you know he was, 611 00:30:33,464 --> 00:30:35,024 Speaker 4: and they had told him that he was going to 612 00:30:35,224 --> 00:30:37,984 Speaker 4: like he was going to get chicks, and he blew 613 00:30:38,064 --> 00:30:41,304 Speaker 4: up the school, killed a bunch of schoolgirls, and killed 614 00:30:41,344 --> 00:30:43,464 Speaker 4: the founder of the school. Maliks are in and so 615 00:30:43,504 --> 00:30:45,944 Speaker 4: we've seen that, and you've done a lot of work 616 00:30:46,184 --> 00:30:50,384 Speaker 4: on day Bell and Valo, right, Valod bel and that 617 00:30:50,504 --> 00:30:52,544 Speaker 4: was a deaf cult, right they if I got it right, 618 00:30:52,664 --> 00:30:56,744 Speaker 4: They murdered their spouses, they murdered their children, they murdered 619 00:30:56,784 --> 00:30:57,904 Speaker 4: their relatives. 620 00:30:58,344 --> 00:31:01,264 Speaker 2: So did they believe this like isis? 621 00:31:01,304 --> 00:31:01,504 Speaker 3: Did? 622 00:31:01,944 --> 00:31:05,384 Speaker 4: Or were they just sociopaths which some isis guys weren't, 623 00:31:05,464 --> 00:31:09,024 Speaker 4: But I hate to say it, most weren't. Most were 624 00:31:09,184 --> 00:31:13,704 Speaker 4: people who desperately needed a path to follow, and that 625 00:31:13,864 --> 00:31:17,384 Speaker 4: path took them down to suicide, bombing and killing of 626 00:31:17,384 --> 00:31:19,264 Speaker 4: innocence with no remorse whatsoever. 627 00:31:19,544 --> 00:31:21,544 Speaker 5: I mean, the Valo Dabells story. I've written a lot 628 00:31:21,544 --> 00:31:23,744 Speaker 5: of weird stories in my life, and that is that's 629 00:31:24,064 --> 00:31:26,624 Speaker 5: top at the top of the pile for sure. Laurie 630 00:31:26,944 --> 00:31:31,024 Speaker 5: Valo and Chad day Bell killed Chad day Bell's wife 631 00:31:31,024 --> 00:31:35,464 Speaker 5: of twenty nine years. They killed Laurie's husband of I 632 00:31:35,504 --> 00:31:39,504 Speaker 5: want to say, twelve years. They killed her son who 633 00:31:39,584 --> 00:31:42,984 Speaker 5: was six years old and had autism. They killed her daughter, 634 00:31:43,184 --> 00:31:48,184 Speaker 5: who was I want to say sixteen sixteen. Yeah, And 635 00:31:48,264 --> 00:31:52,264 Speaker 5: there's suspicions around other deaths around them that Laurie Valo's 636 00:31:52,704 --> 00:31:57,104 Speaker 5: third husband died in very strange circumstances, her brother died 637 00:31:57,224 --> 00:32:00,464 Speaker 5: in strange circumstances, but is also suspected to have been 638 00:32:00,664 --> 00:32:03,144 Speaker 5: Laurie and Chad's hit man in killing all of these 639 00:32:03,184 --> 00:32:03,784 Speaker 5: other people. 640 00:32:04,304 --> 00:32:04,464 Speaker 3: You know. 641 00:32:04,544 --> 00:32:07,464 Speaker 5: I think what's interesting about Laurie Valo is that she 642 00:32:07,864 --> 00:32:12,984 Speaker 5: was this beauty queen and cheerleader. She was on the prices, right. 643 00:32:13,224 --> 00:32:15,744 Speaker 5: She was just sort of this glittering smile and blue 644 00:32:15,784 --> 00:32:19,824 Speaker 5: eyes and just seemed like the most normal mom in America. 645 00:32:20,304 --> 00:32:24,384 Speaker 5: And what she was doing was co leading this group 646 00:32:24,704 --> 00:32:29,344 Speaker 5: that was excusing death, that saying that that was necessary. 647 00:32:29,824 --> 00:32:33,664 Speaker 5: Are they sociopaths or did they believe it. During Laurie's 648 00:32:33,704 --> 00:32:36,544 Speaker 5: first trial, her first time she was convicted. She's been 649 00:32:36,584 --> 00:32:39,224 Speaker 5: convicted several other times, and she will spend the rest 650 00:32:39,264 --> 00:32:44,664 Speaker 5: of her life and subsequent lives in prison. She you know, 651 00:32:44,704 --> 00:32:47,744 Speaker 5: the judge did read a very complicated mental health diagnosis, 652 00:32:47,784 --> 00:32:50,304 Speaker 5: but didn't say outright that she was a sociopath. I 653 00:32:50,304 --> 00:32:53,864 Speaker 5: think it would be pretty hard for two people who 654 00:32:53,944 --> 00:32:57,184 Speaker 5: I mean, maybe it's possible that two sociopaths with the 655 00:32:57,184 --> 00:33:01,504 Speaker 5: same ideas could meet at a conference and decide to 656 00:33:01,504 --> 00:33:04,384 Speaker 5: go on this death spreed together. I think saying that 657 00:33:04,424 --> 00:33:07,704 Speaker 5: they really believed what they preached is probably more accurate 658 00:33:08,104 --> 00:33:10,424 Speaker 5: that because there were so many people who died and 659 00:33:10,424 --> 00:33:13,464 Speaker 5: they both agreed with it. And to this day, you know, 660 00:33:13,544 --> 00:33:16,424 Speaker 5: Chad day Bell is in Idaho living on death row 661 00:33:16,904 --> 00:33:19,544 Speaker 5: and Lourie I don't know if she's in Idaho or 662 00:33:19,544 --> 00:33:22,344 Speaker 5: Arizona at the moment, but they both have been convicted 663 00:33:22,704 --> 00:33:25,984 Speaker 5: and neither of them believes that they are They both 664 00:33:26,264 --> 00:33:29,144 Speaker 5: think that they're innocent. They think that they believe that 665 00:33:29,184 --> 00:33:31,664 Speaker 5: what they did was fine. And often Lori Valo will 666 00:33:31,664 --> 00:33:35,344 Speaker 5: explain to reporters that her children, the spirits of her 667 00:33:35,384 --> 00:33:37,664 Speaker 5: children come and visit her in prison, and they say 668 00:33:37,664 --> 00:33:41,184 Speaker 5: it's fine, don't worry, We're okay, you know. And it's 669 00:33:41,264 --> 00:33:45,144 Speaker 5: so so chilling when she says that, because it shows 670 00:33:45,184 --> 00:33:48,984 Speaker 5: that she really really thinks that what she did was okay, 671 00:33:49,424 --> 00:33:51,664 Speaker 5: and she has, you know, a whole bunch of stories 672 00:33:51,664 --> 00:33:53,944 Speaker 5: around it. So yeah, I mean yeah, at the end 673 00:33:54,024 --> 00:33:58,144 Speaker 5: of the day, I think that covering that stuff, for me, 674 00:33:58,464 --> 00:34:01,544 Speaker 5: the Valo Dabell stuff, I really thought I would come 675 00:34:01,584 --> 00:34:05,224 Speaker 5: to an answer of like why this happened, what the 676 00:34:05,304 --> 00:34:10,344 Speaker 5: catalyzing moment was, some confessions, some kind of like and 677 00:34:10,424 --> 00:34:13,303 Speaker 5: I didn't find it. And in fact, I wrote about 678 00:34:13,304 --> 00:34:16,664 Speaker 5: covering the trial and when the images of her children 679 00:34:16,944 --> 00:34:20,064 Speaker 5: killed were on the screen in the courtroom, Larrie Valo 680 00:34:20,143 --> 00:34:35,104 Speaker 5: fell asleep. Charles Manson level, I've also written about quite 681 00:34:35,143 --> 00:34:37,984 Speaker 5: a few people who have committed bombings. You know, I'm 682 00:34:38,064 --> 00:34:41,143 Speaker 5: very interested in bombers and bombings and who have committed 683 00:34:41,183 --> 00:34:44,183 Speaker 5: bombings in the name of their ideas about the government. 684 00:34:44,304 --> 00:34:46,183 Speaker 5: You know, in Bundyville, we talk about a man who 685 00:34:46,464 --> 00:34:49,544 Speaker 5: blew up a house in rural town in Nevada. The 686 00:34:49,663 --> 00:34:52,784 Speaker 5: bomb was intended for a Bureau of Land Management building, 687 00:34:53,223 --> 00:34:55,663 Speaker 5: but he wrote about you know, in terms. It made 688 00:34:55,703 --> 00:34:58,143 Speaker 5: him seem like a suicide bomber for the Patriot movement, 689 00:34:58,263 --> 00:35:00,303 Speaker 5: and I think that that's happening more and more. So. Yeah, 690 00:35:00,344 --> 00:35:03,823 Speaker 5: the long answer to your is that I believe these 691 00:35:03,864 --> 00:35:06,944 Speaker 5: people really believe what they're doing, and they'll commit violence 692 00:35:06,944 --> 00:35:08,024 Speaker 5: in the name of their ideas. 693 00:35:08,344 --> 00:35:11,183 Speaker 3: And this is all because of Rodney danger Fields. I mean, well, 694 00:35:11,183 --> 00:35:12,904 Speaker 3: in your book you talk about a lot of this 695 00:35:12,944 --> 00:35:15,544 Speaker 3: stuff is about like how we search for relief, you know, 696 00:35:15,984 --> 00:35:18,823 Speaker 3: and it's like a relief from war, anxiety, COVID, and 697 00:35:18,904 --> 00:35:21,064 Speaker 3: even women. There's a lot of time about women trying 698 00:35:21,104 --> 00:35:23,863 Speaker 3: to move away from mainstream religion. I'm just wondering how 699 00:35:23,904 --> 00:35:27,303 Speaker 3: fuch that search for something for comfort makes people vulnerable 700 00:35:27,623 --> 00:35:30,224 Speaker 3: the bad idea as a conspiratory thinking. Obviously not everybody 701 00:35:30,223 --> 00:35:32,104 Speaker 3: falls into that, right, it must be something. 702 00:35:33,743 --> 00:35:35,424 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think you're right. I think that what was 703 00:35:35,464 --> 00:35:39,024 Speaker 5: so interesting to me was just to see how female 704 00:35:39,544 --> 00:35:42,303 Speaker 5: all this stuff is, and to see how many of 705 00:35:42,344 --> 00:35:45,424 Speaker 5: these movements were led by women who said, you know, 706 00:35:45,584 --> 00:35:49,504 Speaker 5: I was once a part of this more mainstream religion 707 00:35:49,944 --> 00:35:53,223 Speaker 5: and it shut me out. But I knew within myself 708 00:35:53,263 --> 00:35:56,384 Speaker 5: that I was a spiritual being. So I'm creating my 709 00:35:56,464 --> 00:35:58,904 Speaker 5: own thing where I'm a leader and I'm saying to 710 00:35:58,984 --> 00:36:01,623 Speaker 5: other women, the power is inside you. I mean, that's 711 00:36:01,663 --> 00:36:03,423 Speaker 5: the big thing about in the New Age is that 712 00:36:03,663 --> 00:36:06,623 Speaker 5: it's so much of it is about personal enlightenment, pro 713 00:36:06,703 --> 00:36:12,143 Speaker 5: spiritual personal betterment and improvement and things like that. So 714 00:36:12,223 --> 00:36:14,223 Speaker 5: I think in many ways that can be a really 715 00:36:14,223 --> 00:36:16,064 Speaker 5: good thing. And I think that's why it is so 716 00:36:16,104 --> 00:36:18,544 Speaker 5: attractive to women as they're saying, I don't need some 717 00:36:19,183 --> 00:36:22,743 Speaker 5: priest or you know, male religious leader to tell me that, 718 00:36:23,104 --> 00:36:25,544 Speaker 5: you know, I'm a I need to do X y 719 00:36:25,663 --> 00:36:28,343 Speaker 5: Z things in order to become a more holy or 720 00:36:28,384 --> 00:36:33,743 Speaker 5: spiritual being. I could do that in myself. And what 721 00:36:33,824 --> 00:36:36,184 Speaker 5: I think you're honing in on is that that also 722 00:36:36,263 --> 00:36:39,064 Speaker 5: speaks to a lack that people feel that there is 723 00:36:39,104 --> 00:36:42,623 Speaker 5: this space that they can improve. And you know, the 724 00:36:42,663 --> 00:36:47,584 Speaker 5: most savvy and potentially nefarious people within the New Age 725 00:36:47,663 --> 00:36:51,984 Speaker 5: see that lack as a potential for sales. So you 726 00:36:52,024 --> 00:36:53,984 Speaker 5: could say, I see that you want to become a 727 00:36:54,024 --> 00:36:56,784 Speaker 5: more spiritually enlightened being. I see that you went through 728 00:36:56,864 --> 00:37:00,984 Speaker 5: this really tough thing. Come stay with me, pay me 729 00:37:01,464 --> 00:37:03,463 Speaker 5: a little bit of money for we're going to work 730 00:37:03,504 --> 00:37:06,783 Speaker 5: on that together. We're gonna we're gonna rise you up 731 00:37:06,864 --> 00:37:09,944 Speaker 5: in your vibrations. You're gonna get rid of the past 732 00:37:10,104 --> 00:37:13,424 Speaker 5: and stuff. And that's where people start to really feel 733 00:37:13,464 --> 00:37:16,863 Speaker 5: like they need that leader. So that we're back in 734 00:37:16,904 --> 00:37:18,823 Speaker 5: the same scenario that a lot of people were trying 735 00:37:18,824 --> 00:37:21,423 Speaker 5: to get away from in the first place. You know, again, 736 00:37:21,464 --> 00:37:26,064 Speaker 5: the aesthetic is different, but the predation is possibly the same, 737 00:37:26,183 --> 00:37:29,223 Speaker 5: especially financial. So yeah, I think when people feel a 738 00:37:29,344 --> 00:37:32,744 Speaker 5: lack or they feel some anxiety, or they just crave 739 00:37:32,864 --> 00:37:36,104 Speaker 5: that spiritual element to their lives that they're not getting 740 00:37:36,104 --> 00:37:39,504 Speaker 5: from somewhere else, I think that makes people vulnerable. But 741 00:37:39,544 --> 00:37:41,584 Speaker 5: when I say that, that's so many people. 742 00:37:42,024 --> 00:37:43,704 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not just the US. 743 00:37:44,064 --> 00:37:47,104 Speaker 4: So again, going back to Cia just for a second, 744 00:37:47,703 --> 00:37:51,863 Speaker 4: one of the most dangerous and powerful and i'll use 745 00:37:51,864 --> 00:37:54,904 Speaker 4: the word sects in the world right now, in certainly 746 00:37:54,904 --> 00:37:57,623 Speaker 4: in the Middle least, something called the Mujhadini Kalk the 747 00:37:57,703 --> 00:37:58,223 Speaker 4: Emi Cad. 748 00:37:58,223 --> 00:37:59,664 Speaker 2: I don't know if you're familiar with them. 749 00:38:00,024 --> 00:38:04,784 Speaker 4: It's mostly an Iranian based group, but they are responsible 750 00:38:04,944 --> 00:38:07,744 Speaker 4: for lots of assassinations inside Iran. 751 00:38:08,143 --> 00:38:09,703 Speaker 2: They are you know, bombing. 752 00:38:10,024 --> 00:38:13,303 Speaker 4: They My understanding is from the presses they work very 753 00:38:13,304 --> 00:38:16,743 Speaker 4: closely with the Israeli mosa to kill Irani nuclear scientists. 754 00:38:16,783 --> 00:38:19,104 Speaker 4: And I'm not going to go into their theology, but 755 00:38:19,263 --> 00:38:22,663 Speaker 4: basically at the top of the who runs this was 756 00:38:22,703 --> 00:38:25,424 Speaker 4: a man and he went through a series of wives 757 00:38:25,544 --> 00:38:29,104 Speaker 4: and then he finally got his current wife, and word 758 00:38:29,263 --> 00:38:30,944 Speaker 4: was he was going to get rid of her because 759 00:38:31,024 --> 00:38:34,264 Speaker 4: his wives all die. And then suddenly he went missing, 760 00:38:34,544 --> 00:38:38,143 Speaker 4: and she claims that he has gone into a state 761 00:38:38,344 --> 00:38:43,024 Speaker 4: of occultation. He is like on a spiritual but he 762 00:38:43,304 --> 00:38:47,024 Speaker 4: speaks to her. So she runs this cult with tens 763 00:38:47,024 --> 00:38:51,104 Speaker 4: of thousands of people because she can channel her clearly 764 00:38:51,183 --> 00:38:55,263 Speaker 4: murdered dead husbands like who she killed before he killed her. 765 00:38:56,064 --> 00:39:00,264 Speaker 4: His thing in her control is she controls who gets married, 766 00:39:00,304 --> 00:39:03,703 Speaker 4: so she controls sex right, who can have it, when 767 00:39:03,703 --> 00:39:05,464 Speaker 4: they can have it, who they can have it with, 768 00:39:05,824 --> 00:39:09,343 Speaker 4: what they can read, you know, all money goes to her, 769 00:39:09,944 --> 00:39:13,024 Speaker 4: and she's got this incredible control throughout the Mid Least 770 00:39:13,064 --> 00:39:15,744 Speaker 4: and into Europe and again coming out of the Agency. 771 00:39:15,783 --> 00:39:18,303 Speaker 4: It is like you're describing like this one of the 772 00:39:18,344 --> 00:39:22,584 Speaker 4: most scariest, most lethal cults in the Middle East right now. 773 00:39:22,783 --> 00:39:25,303 Speaker 5: That's fascinating. I Mean a lot of times people ask me, 774 00:39:25,623 --> 00:39:28,864 Speaker 5: is there something about America. That makes us more vulnerable 775 00:39:28,904 --> 00:39:30,824 Speaker 5: to this kind of thing. And are you telling that story? 776 00:39:30,984 --> 00:39:33,903 Speaker 5: Makes me think absolutely not, this is a human thing. 777 00:39:34,384 --> 00:39:38,024 Speaker 5: But it also makes me think of people like Edna Ballard, 778 00:39:38,143 --> 00:39:41,143 Speaker 5: who is the head of the i AM activity in 779 00:39:41,183 --> 00:39:45,623 Speaker 5: the nineteen forties and fifties. That group was so similar 780 00:39:45,703 --> 00:39:49,584 Speaker 5: to what you're describing. Her husband died pretty suddenly, and 781 00:39:49,623 --> 00:39:52,303 Speaker 5: then she took over the group. She led it in 782 00:39:52,304 --> 00:39:55,623 Speaker 5: the way that she wanted, and you know, told people 783 00:39:55,783 --> 00:39:58,744 Speaker 5: not to have children, She told people who to marry. 784 00:39:59,064 --> 00:40:01,544 Speaker 5: She talked to them about what kind of food they 785 00:40:01,544 --> 00:40:04,703 Speaker 5: should eat or what they should read the next generation. 786 00:40:04,824 --> 00:40:08,704 Speaker 5: After her Elizabeth Claire Prophet, her husband Mark Prophet, died, 787 00:40:09,344 --> 00:40:13,464 Speaker 5: she took over the organization, fired the entire board of directors, 788 00:40:13,703 --> 00:40:17,624 Speaker 5: led things her way, and talked about who people could marry, 789 00:40:17,703 --> 00:40:20,064 Speaker 5: what they could eat, should they have children, what they 790 00:40:20,064 --> 00:40:22,424 Speaker 5: should do with their money. You start to hear that 791 00:40:22,504 --> 00:40:24,783 Speaker 5: and you're like, so how does this keep working from 792 00:40:24,824 --> 00:40:27,663 Speaker 5: generation to generation and country to country? And I'm like, 793 00:40:27,703 --> 00:40:30,064 Speaker 5: are we just not talking about it enough in blunt 794 00:40:30,143 --> 00:40:32,584 Speaker 5: enough terms for people to say, like watch out for this. 795 00:40:32,824 --> 00:40:34,903 Speaker 3: But you and some of your reporting too, You've met 796 00:40:34,904 --> 00:40:37,303 Speaker 3: a lot of people who've left extremist groups or high 797 00:40:37,344 --> 00:40:39,823 Speaker 3: consual spiritual movements. Is there anything you've learned on what 798 00:40:39,864 --> 00:40:43,304 Speaker 3: tends to help people either exit or resist these conspiratorial worlds. 799 00:40:43,464 --> 00:40:46,183 Speaker 5: I mean, that's a great question. I think that in 800 00:40:46,223 --> 00:40:50,024 Speaker 5: the best case scenarios, they had people who loved them 801 00:40:50,104 --> 00:40:52,943 Speaker 5: who refuse to give up on them, which I think 802 00:40:53,024 --> 00:40:56,143 Speaker 5: is really hard. Right when you have a relative that's 803 00:40:56,183 --> 00:41:01,024 Speaker 5: talking about wild stuff that doesn't make sense, it's conspiratorial, hateful, 804 00:41:01,143 --> 00:41:04,384 Speaker 5: they're posting on Facebook, they're embarrassing you. You know, it 805 00:41:04,384 --> 00:41:07,263 Speaker 5: could be hard to want to just like continue to 806 00:41:07,703 --> 00:41:11,064 Speaker 5: give them time and space. But I think that that 807 00:41:11,223 --> 00:41:14,584 Speaker 5: support is really what's critical. I'm also thinking of I've 808 00:41:14,623 --> 00:41:18,223 Speaker 5: spoken at length with Dakota Adams, who was the son 809 00:41:18,263 --> 00:41:22,304 Speaker 5: of Stuart Rhodes, the head of the Oath Keepers. Dakota 810 00:41:22,384 --> 00:41:25,744 Speaker 5: is fascinating, it's a fascinating person. Ran for the monastery 811 00:41:25,783 --> 00:41:28,223 Speaker 5: in Montana State House this year, didn't win in the 812 00:41:28,263 --> 00:41:31,984 Speaker 5: election as a progressive candidate. You know, he talks about 813 00:41:31,984 --> 00:41:35,064 Speaker 5: how up through his teenage years he was absolutely his 814 00:41:35,104 --> 00:41:39,663 Speaker 5: father's most loyal foot soldier, but it was seeing the 815 00:41:39,703 --> 00:41:43,944 Speaker 5: way that his father was treating his family, the financial 816 00:41:44,623 --> 00:41:48,904 Speaker 5: mental abuse of the family, and also just the fact 817 00:41:48,904 --> 00:41:51,303 Speaker 5: that his family that you know, aside from Stuart, they 818 00:41:51,344 --> 00:41:54,584 Speaker 5: all stayed together and they really realize we all have 819 00:41:54,663 --> 00:41:57,504 Speaker 5: to leave together. He had their support, and he found 820 00:41:57,864 --> 00:42:01,303 Speaker 5: a lot of support within the music community in Montana 821 00:42:01,344 --> 00:42:04,623 Speaker 5: of people saying like, hey, you seem cool, you know so, 822 00:42:04,623 --> 00:42:07,064 Speaker 5: so I think it's it's really community and it sounds 823 00:42:07,064 --> 00:42:09,984 Speaker 5: like such a you know, Kumbaya way of solving the issue. 824 00:42:10,024 --> 00:42:12,783 Speaker 5: But I think in this time where things are so 825 00:42:12,783 --> 00:42:15,863 Speaker 5: socially fractured and so much of our life is spent 826 00:42:15,904 --> 00:42:18,703 Speaker 5: on our phones and on the internet, it really is 827 00:42:18,984 --> 00:42:22,663 Speaker 5: very powerful for people to have that human connection and 828 00:42:22,703 --> 00:42:24,664 Speaker 5: that patience from other people. 829 00:42:25,223 --> 00:42:27,864 Speaker 4: You said something earlier that I want to dig into 830 00:42:27,944 --> 00:42:31,504 Speaker 4: because you said something along lines of facts or facts. 831 00:42:31,584 --> 00:42:31,743 Speaker 1: Right. 832 00:42:31,783 --> 00:42:34,703 Speaker 4: You know, if I dropped this coffee cup, it falls down. 833 00:42:34,743 --> 00:42:37,544 Speaker 4: That's a fact. But everybody can kind of have their 834 00:42:37,584 --> 00:42:39,823 Speaker 4: own truth, right, or at least people feel to have 835 00:42:39,864 --> 00:42:42,463 Speaker 4: their own truth. I'm not sure that's I'm not sure 836 00:42:42,464 --> 00:42:46,223 Speaker 4: that's true. I think people have their own sets of feelings, right, 837 00:42:46,384 --> 00:42:49,183 Speaker 4: or their own they generally they have their perceptions. But 838 00:42:49,263 --> 00:42:51,584 Speaker 4: I think one of the problems We've talked about it 839 00:42:51,663 --> 00:42:54,944 Speaker 4: this show a lot, is that shared truths are really 840 00:42:54,984 --> 00:42:59,064 Speaker 4: important for a society. What do you think truth, truth 841 00:42:59,183 --> 00:43:01,464 Speaker 4: or truth y is and how do we how do 842 00:43:01,504 --> 00:43:06,024 Speaker 4: we establish in this time of fractured media and the 843 00:43:06,143 --> 00:43:10,423 Speaker 4: loss of Walter Cronkite and like, you know, like three 844 00:43:10,544 --> 00:43:12,823 Speaker 4: or four big newspapers that maybe disagree with each other, 845 00:43:12,864 --> 00:43:15,864 Speaker 4: but basically tell the truth. Their fact check peer reviewed, 846 00:43:16,223 --> 00:43:18,784 Speaker 4: they agree with it, and there's basic truths within it. 847 00:43:18,824 --> 00:43:21,263 Speaker 4: Is this becoming more dangerous that everybody gets to have 848 00:43:21,304 --> 00:43:24,623 Speaker 4: their own truth and there's no glue for society anymore. 849 00:43:25,384 --> 00:43:28,184 Speaker 5: Yes, I think it is. Really it is really hard 850 00:43:28,263 --> 00:43:32,384 Speaker 5: to find some established agreement on truth. I think this 851 00:43:32,464 --> 00:43:34,064 Speaker 5: came up a lot in the reporting of the book 852 00:43:34,104 --> 00:43:37,104 Speaker 5: I was doing. One of the biggest things that makes 853 00:43:37,143 --> 00:43:41,064 Speaker 5: people excited about this sort of fringe new age ideas 854 00:43:41,384 --> 00:43:45,664 Speaker 5: is a skepticism of the healthcare system is saying women 855 00:43:46,024 --> 00:43:49,544 Speaker 5: have been historically shut out by the healthcare system, and 856 00:43:49,584 --> 00:43:51,504 Speaker 5: there are a lot of skepticism around a bunch of 857 00:43:51,544 --> 00:43:55,424 Speaker 5: guys in lab coats doctors telling them what to believe 858 00:43:55,623 --> 00:43:57,863 Speaker 5: or what is real, and that kind of thing. You know, 859 00:43:57,904 --> 00:44:01,704 Speaker 5: you look at the ways that science specifically has shut 860 00:44:01,783 --> 00:44:06,344 Speaker 5: out in the very recent past, people of color, indigenous people. 861 00:44:06,904 --> 00:44:10,984 Speaker 5: There are truisms that are very very real for people. 862 00:44:11,584 --> 00:44:13,823 Speaker 5: You know, what we're in this moment is there's a 863 00:44:13,904 --> 00:44:17,703 Speaker 5: lack of trust around these established institutions that we could 864 00:44:17,743 --> 00:44:21,783 Speaker 5: once say, okay, scientists, Yeah, what they're doing is right. 865 00:44:22,024 --> 00:44:24,183 Speaker 5: You know, I do not know how we get out 866 00:44:24,183 --> 00:44:27,264 Speaker 5: of this. Sometimes I have to just take that off 867 00:44:27,304 --> 00:44:30,423 Speaker 5: of my desk and say, I'm just chronicling that this 868 00:44:30,464 --> 00:44:33,264 Speaker 5: is happening. That's for smarter people than me to figure 869 00:44:33,263 --> 00:44:35,464 Speaker 5: out how to get out of this. But it is 870 00:44:35,703 --> 00:44:38,464 Speaker 5: difficult for those of us who have been in the 871 00:44:38,464 --> 00:44:41,984 Speaker 5: privileged position to say, like, you know, doctors work for 872 00:44:42,104 --> 00:44:44,623 Speaker 5: me and the guy in the news works for me, 873 00:44:44,864 --> 00:44:48,064 Speaker 5: to say, well, I actually can see now how it 874 00:44:48,143 --> 00:44:50,584 Speaker 5: might not work for everybody. You know how a lot 875 00:44:50,623 --> 00:44:52,863 Speaker 5: of people feel shut out from the healthcare system and 876 00:44:52,904 --> 00:44:56,303 Speaker 5: they might come up with alternative solutions. They might start 877 00:44:56,344 --> 00:45:01,064 Speaker 5: trusting their aunt more than their doctor because they trust 878 00:45:01,104 --> 00:45:03,944 Speaker 5: her and they say, you know, and she says, you know, 879 00:45:04,064 --> 00:45:07,024 Speaker 5: drink this tea or drink this coloidal silver and you'll 880 00:45:07,064 --> 00:45:11,104 Speaker 5: feel better. I trust her more than that doctor who 881 00:45:11,504 --> 00:45:13,344 Speaker 5: seems to be a part of a system that's shutting 882 00:45:13,344 --> 00:45:13,663 Speaker 5: me out. 883 00:45:13,864 --> 00:45:16,104 Speaker 3: So what are you working on now? So what's the 884 00:45:16,143 --> 00:45:16,704 Speaker 3: next step? 885 00:45:17,064 --> 00:45:20,303 Speaker 5: Yeah, I So I just came off of finishing a 886 00:45:20,344 --> 00:45:25,024 Speaker 5: big investigative podcast. It's called Hush, and it's about the 887 00:45:25,104 --> 00:45:28,943 Speaker 5: second season is about a girl, an eighteen year old 888 00:45:28,944 --> 00:45:32,064 Speaker 5: girl in rural Oregon who has found dead four hundred 889 00:45:32,064 --> 00:45:35,864 Speaker 5: feet from her front door, and six years later, her family, 890 00:45:36,104 --> 00:45:39,464 Speaker 5: the police, the community, nobody can tell you what happened 891 00:45:39,504 --> 00:45:42,263 Speaker 5: to her. It is just an absolute question mark. And 892 00:45:42,703 --> 00:45:46,224 Speaker 5: how My co reporter and I who was Ryan Hass 893 00:45:46,504 --> 00:45:49,064 Speaker 5: He's who I made Bundyville with as well. You know, 894 00:45:49,104 --> 00:45:52,224 Speaker 5: we really are trying to understand it beyond a true 895 00:45:52,223 --> 00:45:55,863 Speaker 5: crime perspective. It's not just what happened, it's like, how 896 00:45:55,904 --> 00:45:56,584 Speaker 5: did this happen? 897 00:45:56,743 --> 00:45:56,863 Speaker 3: How? 898 00:45:57,024 --> 00:45:59,904 Speaker 5: And so we look at, you know, how there's no 899 00:46:00,104 --> 00:46:03,944 Speaker 5: media in the area, how there's Facebook, rules everything, and 900 00:46:04,024 --> 00:46:07,224 Speaker 5: true crime sleuths almost have more power than the police 901 00:46:07,223 --> 00:46:08,024 Speaker 5: in that community. 902 00:46:08,223 --> 00:46:11,263 Speaker 4: So you've got two cia, You have a question for 903 00:46:11,384 --> 00:46:13,863 Speaker 4: us that we can that we cannot tell you the 904 00:46:13,904 --> 00:46:14,464 Speaker 4: truth about. 905 00:46:16,384 --> 00:46:18,104 Speaker 5: I mean, gosh, I didn't even think of that. I 906 00:46:18,143 --> 00:46:21,504 Speaker 5: should have questions. Actually do have a I do have 907 00:46:21,544 --> 00:46:23,943 Speaker 5: a question for you when I talk about all these 908 00:46:23,944 --> 00:46:27,064 Speaker 5: conspiracy theories that are catalyzing for people on the far 909 00:46:27,183 --> 00:46:31,304 Speaker 5: right in the far left, do you see global equivalents 910 00:46:31,344 --> 00:46:35,183 Speaker 5: to our American or are these conspiracy theories really American? 911 00:46:35,783 --> 00:46:38,863 Speaker 4: I'd say relate to the party so as someone who 912 00:46:38,904 --> 00:46:41,544 Speaker 4: has grown up, spent a lot of time and like, 913 00:46:41,623 --> 00:46:45,663 Speaker 4: say the Middle East, I remember thirty years ago laughing 914 00:46:45,824 --> 00:46:49,024 Speaker 4: at the Egyptians for having these like because the Egyptians 915 00:46:49,024 --> 00:46:51,424 Speaker 4: are trying to explain how is it that they're losing 916 00:46:51,464 --> 00:46:55,064 Speaker 4: to little Israel, right, you know thirty years ago, you know, 917 00:46:55,104 --> 00:46:57,184 Speaker 4: a huge army, you know, the best that the Soviet 918 00:46:57,223 --> 00:46:59,104 Speaker 4: Union has given them, and they were coming up with 919 00:46:59,183 --> 00:47:03,984 Speaker 4: things like ah, chewing gum. The global Jewish cabal, the 920 00:47:04,183 --> 00:47:10,144 Speaker 4: Israelis have put chemicals into chewing gum that is restricting 921 00:47:10,663 --> 00:47:14,704 Speaker 4: like our fertility and making us like less likely to fight, 922 00:47:15,183 --> 00:47:17,663 Speaker 4: and so like they were burning down chewing gum factories 923 00:47:17,663 --> 00:47:20,984 Speaker 4: and I remember thinking, well, what that is something that 924 00:47:21,024 --> 00:47:22,984 Speaker 4: we would never do in the United States. 925 00:47:23,024 --> 00:47:24,623 Speaker 2: And I'm looking at you, RFK Junior. 926 00:47:24,743 --> 00:47:27,143 Speaker 4: But as that's why they lose to the Israelis, because 927 00:47:27,143 --> 00:47:29,863 Speaker 4: they're dealing in conspiracy theories rather than dealing with their 928 00:47:30,024 --> 00:47:32,383 Speaker 4: real issues. And then I'll come in one more time 929 00:47:32,424 --> 00:47:34,824 Speaker 4: and say I spent a lot of time in Germany 930 00:47:34,944 --> 00:47:38,663 Speaker 4: as a late teen in my early twenties, and the myths, 931 00:47:39,024 --> 00:47:42,343 Speaker 4: the fascist myths that like Blut and Boden and you know, 932 00:47:42,944 --> 00:47:46,464 Speaker 4: the basic Nazi myths, they didn't die when Hitler died 933 00:47:46,504 --> 00:47:48,983 Speaker 4: in forty five. I mean, they sort of went underground. 934 00:47:49,384 --> 00:47:52,104 Speaker 4: And I would find I would get have drinks with 935 00:47:52,183 --> 00:47:54,863 Speaker 4: older Germans, like just twenty years older than me, and 936 00:47:54,904 --> 00:47:57,984 Speaker 4: they're like, yeah, no, Hitler was wrong, but he did 937 00:47:58,024 --> 00:48:01,904 Speaker 4: have a lot of good ideas, you know, and they're like, whoa, 938 00:48:01,984 --> 00:48:07,424 Speaker 4: they've it's transmographied those those myths, right, and conspiracies and 939 00:48:07,464 --> 00:48:11,303 Speaker 4: conspiracy theories. So I think the United States we've come 940 00:48:11,304 --> 00:48:13,984 Speaker 4: to this later than most, but it's maybe it's hit 941 00:48:14,024 --> 00:48:14,423 Speaker 4: us harder. 942 00:48:14,623 --> 00:48:17,064 Speaker 3: I know, John Wow, No, just the same. And that's 943 00:48:17,064 --> 00:48:20,824 Speaker 3: along the same theme everywhere I've lived. It's it seemed 944 00:48:20,824 --> 00:48:23,704 Speaker 3: like they bought into conspiracy theories more than I thought 945 00:48:23,824 --> 00:48:26,264 Speaker 3: we did as Americans. And of course now we're seeing 946 00:48:26,263 --> 00:48:30,384 Speaker 3: it infusing our politics and our just our society at large. 947 00:48:30,544 --> 00:48:33,104 Speaker 3: I mean, we can remember security guards when I lived 948 00:48:33,104 --> 00:48:35,544 Speaker 3: in a place that had terrace, like nice security guard 949 00:48:35,584 --> 00:48:38,184 Speaker 3: from the house with my kids in it one morning 950 00:48:38,183 --> 00:48:39,944 Speaker 3: what not? He ran away at night and I'm like, 951 00:48:39,984 --> 00:48:42,024 Speaker 3: where is he. He's like, apparently he thought he saw 952 00:48:42,584 --> 00:48:45,823 Speaker 3: demons that lived in our trees, I mean everywhere. So 953 00:48:45,904 --> 00:48:48,623 Speaker 3: I think this is a human thing, and I think 954 00:48:48,663 --> 00:48:50,984 Speaker 3: it's good to understand it. We're not going to we're 955 00:48:51,024 --> 00:48:53,904 Speaker 3: not going to solve it. Some of it is scam 956 00:48:54,064 --> 00:48:57,064 Speaker 3: some of it is for fun entertainment for people. But 957 00:48:57,104 --> 00:48:58,823 Speaker 3: I think what you do a good job of his 958 00:48:58,904 --> 00:49:01,143 Speaker 3: understanding how people get into it for different reasons, for 959 00:49:01,304 --> 00:49:05,624 Speaker 3: comfort or for community, or for looking for something spirituality 960 00:49:05,703 --> 00:49:08,623 Speaker 3: or whatever, and there's ways where that can really turn 961 00:49:09,024 --> 00:49:11,183 Speaker 3: off base and go in a much darker and day 962 00:49:11,263 --> 00:49:14,424 Speaker 3: more dangerous direction. Well, Lee, thank you so much for 963 00:49:14,584 --> 00:49:17,263 Speaker 3: speaking with us, and you're reporting. You have a really 964 00:49:17,304 --> 00:49:20,744 Speaker 3: good way of making a storytelling to get to something deeper, 965 00:49:20,783 --> 00:49:23,864 Speaker 3: and so I hope that our audience will start to 966 00:49:23,904 --> 00:49:26,823 Speaker 3: follow you and follow your podcasts and your books, and 967 00:49:26,864 --> 00:49:28,303 Speaker 3: I hope we can have you on again. 968 00:49:28,703 --> 00:49:31,024 Speaker 5: Yeah, anytime. Thanks so much for having me. This is 969 00:49:31,064 --> 00:49:32,264 Speaker 5: a real pleasure. 970 00:49:32,384 --> 00:49:40,824 Speaker 1: Curious Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'sha, 971 00:49:41,344 --> 00:49:46,344 Speaker 1: John Cipher, and Jonathan Stern. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. 972 00:49:46,584 --> 00:49:50,383 Speaker 1: Mission implausible. It's a production of honorable mention and abominable 973 00:49:50,424 --> 00:49:52,383 Speaker 1: pictures for iHeart Podcasts.