1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: Paper Ghosts is a production of iHeartRadio. Previously on Paper Ghosts. 2 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 1: Going down the highway between here and the next exit. 3 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: I talked myself in and out of calling the police 4 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: about a hundred times, and the last thought I had was, 5 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: if it was my daughter, I'd want to know. Back then, 6 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: my understanding was that to the extent that there were 7 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: any traces of DNA on anything like the blanket or 8 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: clothes or anything like that, the technology was such that 9 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: they just couldn't. It wasn't usable, right, There wasn't enough 10 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: of it. A lot of people were critical of the 11 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: publicity that was put out the States, and well, doesn't 12 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: it bother you? Yes, but I see her face, whether 13 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: I see it on a picture or whether I don't. 14 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:51,279 Speaker 1: My name is em William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist 15 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:55,279 Speaker 1: and author more than forty true crime books. This is 16 00:00:55,960 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: season three Paper Ghosts in Plain Sight. Over the past 17 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: thirty years, a number of suspects have stood out in 18 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: Tammy Ziwiki's murder case. When I began my own investigation, 19 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: it was apparent that the semitruck driving serial killer types 20 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:25,960 Speaker 1: who preyed upon young females in the late eighties and 21 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: early nineties were at the top of the list. There 22 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: was also Lonnie Dumott, the guy who found and helped 23 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: move Tammy's body from the roadside in Lawrence County, Missouri. 24 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: And then there was a lead that came in five 25 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: days after Tammy was reported missing in August of nineteen 26 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: ninety two. That tip from an eyewitness who said she 27 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: was driving eastbound on Interstate eighty when she saw a 28 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: man in a blue or green pickup truck parked behind 29 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: Tammy's car along the westbound side of the highway. It 30 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: was a lead that former ISP investigator and Marty McCarthy 31 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: believes was largely ignored. So what do we know about 32 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: this man? All slender, unshaven, just kind of disheveled, I 33 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: would say, And you've got to have ballpark hat, kind 34 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: of a typical denizen in a home, I mean, nondescriptive 35 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 1: in that sense. White guy. Marty believes to this day 36 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: that the guy driving that pickup truck is the best 37 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: suspect in Tammy's disappearance and murder. If you look at 38 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: all the details on paper, it's understandable why he appeared suspicious. 39 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 1: All the pieces seemed to fit when you break this 40 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: lead down, any investigator worth their weight would be drawn 41 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: to the guy. Still based on the sheer number of 42 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: tips about a white on my truck seen park near 43 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:06,679 Speaker 1: Tammy's car, the esp was solely focused on finding an 44 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 1: eighteen wheeler, specifically one with rust colored stripes, essentially a 45 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:18,079 Speaker 1: needle in a haystack. As the year came to an end, 46 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: Tammy's case had started to run cold. Then in early January, 47 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: a new call came into the tip line. Call comes 48 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,359 Speaker 1: to the office from this woman who I don't know 49 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: if anybody recognized her or not, saying, hey, these people 50 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: they came to my office. It turned out the person 51 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: on the other end of the line was the same 52 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: woman who just four months earlier had called in the 53 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: tip about the blue or green pickup truck. She calls 54 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: back in, you know, and I gonna go out and 55 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: see her, and no one talked to her an intermediate 56 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: period of time. During this second call, the eyewitness claimed 57 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: that the man she had seen on the side of 58 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: the road with Tammy had actually shown up to her 59 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: place of work along with his wife. She has an 60 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: airy feeling about him from the get go. She told me, 61 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: this guy whoa I had my hair kind of went up. Guy, 62 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: it looks like the guy out of the road. Looks 63 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: like the guy she told me that, And I don't 64 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: think he obviously wouldn't have recognized her, but she was 65 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 1: somewhat free by that. He just kind of sits there, 66 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,600 Speaker 1: Marty says. The person the eyewitness identified was a thirty 67 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:34,359 Speaker 1: one year old man named Lonnie beer Brought, not to 68 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:39,039 Speaker 1: be confused with Lonnie Dumott, the repairman who found Tammy's body. Rather, 69 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 1: this Lonnie Lonnie beer Brought was a former semitruck driver 70 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: and a convicted felon who had been ordered to serve 71 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: three concurrent twenty year sentences for armed robbery. He ended 72 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:58,280 Speaker 1: up getting paroled in July nineteen ninety. Is a trucker 73 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:05,039 Speaker 1: violent felon got a green pickup truck a few miles 74 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: from the scene. Lived in Sharkozi, sal Peru. According to 75 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: the esp the beer Brought family owned property about ten 76 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: miles from the stretch of highway in Sarcoxi, Missouri, where 77 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:23,679 Speaker 1: Tammy's body was found. Sarcoxi wasn't a heavily traffic city 78 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: at the time, still isn't today. There are only about 79 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 1: fifteen hundred residents, and back in nineteen ninety two, the 80 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: only logical route off the highway to get to the 81 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: beer brought residents was Exit thirty three, the same exit 82 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: where Tammy's body was found. More importantly, Lonnie beer Brott 83 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: also had family five hundred miles away in Peru, Illinois, 84 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: the neighboring town from where Tammy went missing. He was 85 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 1: from that area as well, and the ISP confirmed that 86 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: on the day Tammy vanished August twenty third, nineteen ninety two, 87 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: beer Brott was just minutes from the spot on I 88 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: eighty where she was last seen. I've done this long time, 89 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: and I just thought, whoa bingle. I can't say everybody 90 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: else did, but how many coincidences can there be? Here? 91 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 1: So they decided to go down the whole task force 92 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: to Missouri, and for whatever reason, I didn't get a 93 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,239 Speaker 1: signed to go down there. I don't know why. I'll 94 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: take who knows. I didn't care. I had some stuff 95 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: to do here, and they took as I recall, they 96 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:34,280 Speaker 1: took a lot of physical evidence out of there. Did 97 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 1: they bring him in for questioning? They come back and 98 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 1: they bring him in, interview him, take his blood, take 99 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: all the samples, DNA all this kind of ship. At 100 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: the time, Marty was actually out in the field assigned 101 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: to handle other parts of the Ziwiki investigation, so the 102 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 1: responsibility of documenting and chasing leads fell on other members 103 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: of the task force, including one of Marty's colleagues, who 104 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:07,840 Speaker 1: questioned Lonnie beer Brott at the station. So he says, yeah, 105 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: I interviewed him. He's just spacing as hell. He's just like, 106 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: doesn't say anything, and it was just kind of a 107 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: space cadet type of thing which happened. Meantime, while he 108 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: is there at the State Police, incomes his brother and 109 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: makes a big scene saying, hey, where's you got my brother? 110 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: What are you doing? What are you making a big 111 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: scene in the State Police about where he's supposed to be, 112 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: which always interesting. Newspapers reported that beer Brott's wife and 113 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: d laws were interviewed. Investigators searched through the beer Brott's 114 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: trash and reviewed their phone records. But before anyone on 115 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: the task force could further pursue their strongest lead yet, 116 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: Marty and his colleague were hit with a surprising development 117 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: all of a sudden in February, they walk in were 118 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: dissolving the task force fifteen sixteen. Guy. They had been 119 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: taken from other districts. There's other cases building up. Commanders 120 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: are saying blah blah, blah blah. I can understand that, 121 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: and we've been there for a number of months. But here, 122 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: in my view, we get the best lead we've ever had. 123 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: By early nineteen ninety three, the fourteen member task force 124 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: investigating Tammy's murder had completely disbanded, citing a lack of 125 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:32,199 Speaker 1: progress as the main reason. Investigators vowed to follow any 126 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: additional leads as they came in, but the number of 127 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 1: law enforcement working the case was significantly cut. To me, 128 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: it's a clear example of the department's mismanagement early in 129 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: this investigation. Why take a team of seasoned investigators chasing 130 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: a lead their supervisor deemed one of the most relevant 131 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: off the case. This always bugged me, but I'm told 132 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: no one in certain terms to stay out of this case, 133 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: and I do because I know what those will do. 134 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: By May of nineteen ninety three, eight months after Tammy 135 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: Ziwiki's murder, police said they had followed up on more 136 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: than six hundred and fifty leads and twenty five hundred 137 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: truck sightings to no avail. A police spokesperson at the 138 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 1: time said they just ran out of leads. Because of this, 139 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: the Illinois State Police did something it hadn't yet done. 140 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: Investigators publicly released a list of items belonging to Tammy 141 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: that were missing from her car and person when her 142 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: body was found. Among them Tammy's pair of round, wire 143 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 1: framed eyeglasses, a woman's watch that played rain drops keep 144 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 1: falling on My head, a pair of gray A six 145 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 1: running shoes, a large brown faux alligator skin purse, Tammy's 146 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: driver's license, and her cannon EOS thirty five millimeter camera 147 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:03,079 Speaker 1: and lens. The spokesperson noted that the ISP had been 148 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 1: aware of the missing items all long, but quote, we 149 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: have no new suspects and no new leads, so it 150 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: doesn't matter anymore. Quote their hope that someone had purchased 151 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: one of the items at a pawn shop or would 152 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: see one of them and call in. After Marty McCarthy 153 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: was removed from the task force in nineteen ninety three, 154 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: he eventually became the commander of the ISP's the vision 155 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: of internal investigations for all state employees in the Chicago area. 156 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: All along he never stopped thinking about what happened the 157 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 1: Tammy's at wiki. When he retired in two thousand and one, 158 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 1: he amped up his involvement in the case and became 159 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 1: determined to find out more about the man in the 160 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: pickup truck. He believes that Lonnie beer Brott was that 161 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: man and had something to do with Tammy's murder. Marty 162 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 1: eventually connected with Tammy's mom to share his theory and 163 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: discuss the investigation. For him, it was about getting this 164 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: Ziwicki family the answers they deserved and following evidence he 165 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 1: believed had been overlooked. I'm up in Michigan on vacation. 166 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: I'm playing tennis with my wife and I stopped. I said, God, 167 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 1: damn it, I just can't live with this. So what 168 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: are you doing? We're playing tennis? I cannot live with 169 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 1: this bad. I gotta do something. I gotta call missus Wickie, 170 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: just driving me crazy. I go call her and I said, Hello, 171 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: it was Morney McCarthy. Blah blah blah. I said, I said, 172 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: have you ever heard of Lonnie beer brod No, although 173 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: she wasn't happy with the investigation at that time, I said, well, 174 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 1: Lonnie beer rot was a suspect in this case, a 175 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,319 Speaker 1: very strong suspect in this case. I just wanted to 176 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: know if you knew, and if you didn't know, I 177 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: wonder why. And I personally believe he should be pursued. 178 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: And she said, I agree with you. I'm on your side. 179 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: And we took off for like twenty years together. And 180 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:17,719 Speaker 1: as talking to people as part of his own investigation, 181 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: Marty made a point of reaching out to the eyewitness 182 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 1: who led investigators to beer Brought in the first place. 183 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 1: He trusted her account and deemed her to be extremely 184 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: credible because her husband was a prominent member of the 185 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: law enforcement community. It was during one of their meetings 186 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:38,959 Speaker 1: in the early two thousands that Marty claims the eyewitness 187 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: revealed new details to him about her encounter with the 188 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: beer Brought family a decade earlier, details which shifted his 189 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: investigation into high gear. As he explains it, the eyewitness 190 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: said she found herself engaged in conversation with Lonnie beer 191 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: Brott's wife on the day they came into her workplay 192 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety three. Missus bear Rock is talking. Lonnie's 193 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 1: sitting there morrows and the wife is rattling on and 194 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:13,319 Speaker 1: she starts talking about Lonnie gave me this watch. It 195 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: plays a musical tune, and she kind of showed it 196 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,679 Speaker 1: to me, and and you were seeing it, and I 197 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:23,199 Speaker 1: couldn't see it on it like that. She didn't play 198 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: a tune for me, so I go, holy shit, Holy shit. 199 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 1: It's important to note that the eyewitness did not mention 200 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: a watch in her statement to the police. It wasn't 201 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: until nearly a decade later, during her meeting with Marty, 202 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 1: and long after it was publicized that Tammy's watch was missing, 203 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: that she told the story of Lonnie's wife wearing one. 204 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 1: How many fucking watches play a tune. I want to 205 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:55,839 Speaker 1: know what that tune is. Let's find out. If that 206 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: is rain drops, that's the killer to me. Just that's it. 207 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 1: And all we gotta do is find that out. Here's 208 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 1: Tammy's mom, Joanne. Do you remember the type of watch 209 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 1: she was wearing. Did the watch play that song rain 210 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 1: gain drops keep falling on my head? She was wearing 211 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: that watch for sure? Yeah. And did it have a 212 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: green watch band? Do you remember? I don't remember for sure. 213 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: Grein was her favorite color, so I'm sure it was 214 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: a green watch band. It was just a simple watch. 215 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 1: It wasn't anything fancy. If I remember her saying she 216 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: needed a watch to keep todd because she had to 217 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: move from one place to another set but you recall 218 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: it playing rain drops keep falling on your head. During 219 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: the latter part of twenty twenty one and throughout twenty 220 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: twenty two, I made repeated attempts to reach out to 221 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: the eyewitness to verify Marty's story about the watch. She 222 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: never re bonded. What worries me about her information is 223 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: that I'm hearing its secondhand and have no convincing way 224 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: to corroborate it. She seems credible, but it's important to 225 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: note that the beer brought identification, the watch story, and 226 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: the sighting of the pickup truck all come from her 227 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: and her alone. What I have been able to verify 228 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: through police documents is that the eyewitness did call the 229 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: IP Task Force in January nineteen ninety three. She said 230 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: the Beer Brought's visit to her workplace occurred the previous 231 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: month in December, and that Lonnie's wife did most of 232 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 1: the talking for him. That the couple was originally from 233 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: the LaSalle County area of Illinois, but as of December 234 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two, had still maintained property in Lawrence County, Missouri. 235 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: Here's Tammy's brother, Todd Zuwiki. Obviously, over time, we've had 236 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: some people who look like plausible suspects. You know, there 237 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: was the whole story with Lonnie beer Brought and the 238 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 1: watch in the life. You know, kind of not quite 239 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: clear what that evident, you know, where that all led, 240 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: but that was who a lot of people thought was 241 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: the most pausible suspect. Marty says. The witness also told 242 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: him something he'd never heard before. That after the esp 243 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: paid a visit to the Beer brought residence and brought 244 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: Lonnie in for questioning, Lonnie and one of his brothers 245 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: showed up to the witness's place of work upset. The 246 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: next day or very soon after that, they both show 247 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: up unannounced. She's scared. Who called the police? Who called? 248 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: Who told us son of my brother? You know, it 249 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 1: made a big scene there, and that kind of thing 250 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: to me. Oh shit, Now, I'm not even sure the 251 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: state police knows that second part. But my view was, 252 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: I I haven't I can't write a police report. I'm retired. 253 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: I called the States Attorney and he said, oh yes, 254 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: sah but I said, I'll be right, I'll come done 255 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: her right now. So I sit out there in his 256 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: waiting room for an hour, about an hour, and I'm 257 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,919 Speaker 1: being blown off. So I go to the sectarise, Hey, 258 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 1: look here's the deal. Well he's in there with a meeting. 259 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: I gotta say, yeah, okay, fine, I'm gonna go over 260 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: to the newspaper with this information. I'm gonna give this something. 261 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: He didn't want to talk to. Be fine, I'll be 262 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: over the newspaper he comes out. Marty's next move would 263 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 1: turn him into a polarizing figure. He made good on 264 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: his promise to contact the media. If you google Tammy's case, 265 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 1: you'll see his name all over it. He's been very 266 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 1: critical of how the ISP handled the investigation. Unfortunately, I 267 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: can't interview Lonnie beer Abrod. He died in two thousand 268 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: and two while serving time in prison on unrelated charges. 269 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: When Marty sought out Lonnie in the years after he retired, 270 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: the state's attorney explained that Lonnie had passed away and 271 00:17:55,440 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 1: that interest in him as a suspect fizzle. Marty told 272 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:04,400 Speaker 1: me he didn't understand why investigators had not pursued beer 273 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 1: Brott more aggressively even after his death. He even pleaded 274 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 1: with the prosecutor to pursue a case, but was told 275 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 1: protocol required the state police to bring the case forward 276 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:20,360 Speaker 1: for prosecution, something they never did. What I said, these 277 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: guys are not going to bring this case. They don't 278 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: believe it. And this was the information. You don't have 279 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 1: to believe me. Go get this information. No, I doesn't 280 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:28,400 Speaker 1: work that way. Why now, I said, get a grand 281 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: jury in here. I just couldn't believe it. As I 282 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,159 Speaker 1: began to look into every aspect of the early investigation, 283 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: one of the first things I did was identify who 284 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 1: exactly was responsible for following up on the eyewitnesses tip. 285 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:52,679 Speaker 1: Turns out it was an ISP investigator named Bill Hamill, who, 286 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: like Marty, was a member of the Task Force. Folks 287 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 1: I've spoken to describe Hamill as a respect of guy 288 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 1: and a thorough investigator, but Marty believes Hamil dropped the 289 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: ball on this one. On the official tip sheet, which 290 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,120 Speaker 1: I obtained from a source, there's a hand drawn star 291 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: next to the eyewitness's name. It was put there, according 292 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:22,719 Speaker 1: to Marty, by an IP supervisor and was meant for Hamil. 293 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: Marty claims the star in and of itself was important. 294 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,159 Speaker 1: Marty says. The eyewitness told him that no one reached 295 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: out to her after she called in the initial tip, 296 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: and that by the time investigators finally got around to 297 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: interview in Lonnie Beer brought months later, he could have 298 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 1: destroyed crucial evidence. By then. All I know is that 299 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: they found the vehicle a pickup truck. It had been 300 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:52,439 Speaker 1: sold and cleaned, and they do a crime scene on that. 301 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: They find his house. He has sold it, cleaned it 302 00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 1: and left. To clarify, Beer brought wife's Toyota pickup truck 303 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: was blue. Still, did the ISP miss a crucial window 304 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:11,479 Speaker 1: of opportunity to connect the Lonnie Beer brought the Tammy's murder? 305 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: That tip was followed up on. Every single tip is documented, 306 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 1: every single one. Jeff Padilla, a retired ISP lieutenant who 307 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 1: you've heard in previous episodes, is adamant at the department 308 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:30,400 Speaker 1: followed up on every credible lead that came in. They 309 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,119 Speaker 1: had to. It was not only part of their job 310 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: but standard policy. There was a pickup truck recovered and analyzed, 311 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:44,120 Speaker 1: but the information related to the pickup truck didn't coincide, 312 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 1: and basically it was eliminated. Padilla told me there was 313 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:52,640 Speaker 1: and still is evidence that was never publicly released, evidence 314 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:57,359 Speaker 1: that helped the ISP way how seriously they viewed Lonnie Beer, 315 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: brought as a suspect, already says once he heard the 316 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 1: eyewitnesses watch story, he sprung into action and went further 317 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: up the chain of command. I called out there and 318 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: talked to this guy's supervisor, Hamil supervisor. He didn't know 319 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: any about the case. He's a new guy. I said, hey, 320 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:15,919 Speaker 1: you know, this woman is whitness. He hasn't been interviewed 321 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:19,399 Speaker 1: in ten goddamn years. Now there's new information. You got 322 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: to send somebody out there to talk to her. I said, well, 323 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: you see, okay, guess who he said, hail. So Hamil 324 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 1: goes out there at interviews, and the whole contain already 325 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: I talked to her about this. The whole thing is 326 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,400 Speaker 1: McCarthy should have nothing to do with this. He's he's retired, 327 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: he's got don't know anything about this. The whole thing 328 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 1: was a downer on me. What information he got, I 329 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,199 Speaker 1: don't know. Did she give him the watch story. I 330 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: presume she did, but I never saw that report. But 331 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: he's already got a blown out. It's a watch Watch. 332 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:54,880 Speaker 1: You know, he just blown this thing off, and if 333 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 1: he wrote a report of that, I never saw it. 334 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: I tracked down Bill Hamil late twenty twenty two. He's 335 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,400 Speaker 1: long since retired and now lives in the South with 336 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: his wife. I spoke with them both and found the 337 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: couple to be kind and more than willing to be 338 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: on the podcast, But a medical condition prevented Bill from 339 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 1: consenting to a formal interview with me. Because of that, 340 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: I worried about his recollections and felt it would be 341 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 1: unethical to air any part of our conversation. I've driven 342 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,680 Speaker 1: down highways, and I've worked over and I've seen remote 343 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 1: canyons and places along the way where a guy could 344 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 1: pull over his vehicle and as a right circumstance, walk 345 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 1: out there and get rid of whatever he wanted, and 346 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 1: get back in his vehicle and drive off. Keith Hunter Jesperson, 347 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 1: otherwise known as as the Happy Face Killer, was a 348 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:06,719 Speaker 1: semi truck driving serial killer who bound, raped, and strangled 349 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 1: eight women while criss crossing the country between nineteen ninety 350 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:15,639 Speaker 1: and nineteen ninety five. What was the farthest distance you 351 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: ever traveled and the longest period of time you ever 352 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: traveled with a body in your truck the longest period 353 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,439 Speaker 1: of time. Did you ever have to a body for 354 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: a couple of days for example? No, No, one never did. 355 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,920 Speaker 1: Um maybe one hundred and fifty miles two in a 356 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,679 Speaker 1: mile and the body was what in the cab with you? 357 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: And why did you hold on to the body for 358 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: that long looking for a place to put it. That's 359 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: one of hundreds of conversations I've had with jess Person 360 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 1: while he serves three consecutive life sentences at Oregon State Penitentiary. 361 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: And basically, a killer instant is based upon your comfort zone, 362 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: and this is my comfort zone is a tool to 363 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 1: use and murder. I first connected with him in twenty 364 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,679 Speaker 1: ten after looking into his murder cases and studying the 365 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: crimes of those like him. There's been closed the area. 366 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: It's like it's like my visers fell into a hole. 367 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,119 Speaker 1: Jesperson is not and has never been, a suspect in 368 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 1: Tammy Ziwiki's murder. But as I continued my investigation, it 369 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 1: was hard not to think back to the conversations I 370 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: had with him. To me, it was WoT the game 371 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: to the fact that I'll just see whether or not 372 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: discussing get in my truck or not. How he rationalized 373 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: his horrific crimes and managed to evade law enforcement for 374 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: as long as he did. Nobody who I was. Nobody 375 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 1: had an idea if I even existed in the third place. 376 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 1: And of course, if evil happens and someone must be 377 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: responsible to why not waying to go to me? I know? 378 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 1: The trail of murder left behind by a truck driver 379 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: like jesperson offers valuable insight into Tammy's case. From the start, 380 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: police investigating Tammy's murder looked at the possibility that a 381 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:13,640 Speaker 1: semitruck driver killed and dumped her body somewhere along their 382 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: truck route, and for what it's worth, it's a strong theory. 383 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,439 Speaker 1: Several well known serial killers were operating at the time. 384 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: In June nineteen ninety two, just two months before Tammy 385 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 1: was murdered, three women forty seven year old Cheryl Leavitt, 386 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: nineteen year old Susie Streeter, and eighteen year old Stacy McCall, 387 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: disappeared from Cheryl's home, about thirty miles from where Tammy's 388 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:43,880 Speaker 1: body was found. The women were more famously known as 389 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 1: the Springfield Three, and to date they have not been 390 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: found What's more, Susie and Stacy were young and blonde 391 00:25:53,119 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: like Tammy. Were the cases connected. Here's Tammy's brother Todd's wiki. 392 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: Most of the time, when you hear these stories come out, 393 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: it's these interstate truckers who also kind of live on 394 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: the fringe of society and move around, and you know, 395 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 1: nobody really knows that much about them or where they 396 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: go and when they go. There there were other truckers 397 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,880 Speaker 1: who would come up. Bruce Mendenhall was a name I recall. 398 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:26,119 Speaker 1: Bruce Mendenhall was a trucker from southern Illinois who became 399 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 1: a solid suspect for esp investigators. Mendenhall was known as 400 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,119 Speaker 1: the truck stop killer because he preyed upon vulnerable women, 401 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 1: mainly hitchhikers and women hanging around truck stops. He was 402 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,399 Speaker 1: arrested in Tennessee in two thousand and seven when he 403 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: was fifty six, and seemed to tick many of the 404 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 1: boxes in Tammy's case. After his arrest, Mendenhall even confessed 405 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:55,680 Speaker 1: to six murders in several states. Tammy's was not one 406 00:26:55,720 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 1: of them. Still, with guys like Mendenhall, it's difficult to 407 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: fully know how much they'rewithholding from authorities. For example, in 408 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, a decade after Mendenhall had already been 409 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 1: convicted of murder, he was connected by DNA to another 410 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: murder beyond the sixth he had been tied to. What 411 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: I have kind of reconciled myself too, was the idea 412 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 1: that if this was the typical profile of a sort 413 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 1: of a transient trucker or somebody like that who lived 414 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 1: on the edge of society, I've just assumed by this 415 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 1: point the guy's probably dead or jail for something else, 416 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: or died in jail for something else, or something like that. 417 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 1: It's just not the kind of person who I would 418 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: expect to have still been around and alive to be 419 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 1: an active suspect and that sort of thing. At least 420 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: that's been my working assumption. Here's former LaSalle County State's 421 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,639 Speaker 1: Attorney Brian Town with the state police followed a lot 422 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 1: of lead with regard to serial killers, you know, that 423 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 1: have been caught throughout the country that may have had 424 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: ties to our area at that time frame, and all 425 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:14,439 Speaker 1: of those leads turned up nothing. Every time police thought 426 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: they had a trucker who might have been responsible for 427 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: Tammy's murder, the evidence wasn't there to back it up. 428 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: In one instance, a forty five year old truck driver 429 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: from Colorado, William James Banister, was arrested in July nineteen 430 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,160 Speaker 1: ninety three for attempting to kill a fourteen year old girl. 431 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 1: Law enforcement found bloody clothes, including under garments, in the 432 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 1: cab of his truck and thought they might be Tammy's, 433 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 1: but Banister was ultimately cleared. This scenario happened over and 434 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 1: over again in Tammy's case. Investigators thought they had a 435 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: solid lead on a trucker who fit the bill, only 436 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: to rule them out be a blood, DNA or circumstantial evidence. 437 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 1: I made a point to ask Brian town about Marty 438 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: McCarthy's theory on Lonnie beer Brod. It was important to 439 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,479 Speaker 1: me to understand what other investigators thought about Marty's dogged 440 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: pursuit of the man he believed to beat Tammy's killer. 441 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 1: Now you know Marty McCarthy correct, Oh, yes, how would 442 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: you describe Marty enthusiastic? I would dedicated, always pursuing the truth, 443 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 1: but you know, at times maybe a little bit too 444 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 1: talkative during the course of a bending investigation. I mean 445 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: Marty blamed Bill Hamill for a lot of the problems 446 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: early on in this investigation when you look at some 447 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 1: of the mistakes that were made, and mistakes are made 448 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: in every investigation. I'm not trying to hammer anybody here. 449 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: I'm just saying that, you know, and I know that 450 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: mistakes are made and every investigation. It's just a nature 451 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: of human beings. Sure, and he blamed Hamil for a 452 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 1: lot of that. What would you say to that, Well, 453 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: you know, Master Sergeant McCarty was he was very interested 454 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 1: in this case. He was very almost consumed by this case. 455 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: He was revealing information to the family and to the 456 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: public that really hurt law enforcement's efforts to maintain a 457 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 1: proper investigation and the integrity the investigation. And I can't 458 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 1: speak to his motives. I sincerely don't know what the 459 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: grudge was between McCarty and Hamil, except to say that 460 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: in thirty years in law enforcement, I can say that 461 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: you know, every police department, and including the State police, 462 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: they have their their moments where you know, one person 463 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: isn't too happy with another and and they're they're very 464 00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 1: critical of one another. It's a it's a it's a 465 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: very emotional profession, and you know, sometimes you know, those 466 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 1: emotions get in the way. I'm solely focused on the truth. 467 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 1: There's been too much misinformation within Tammy's a wiki's case. 468 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 1: Part of the process included running down any holes in 469 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 1: Marty's narrative. For me, anything and everything I could learn 470 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 1: about Lonnie beer Brought felt important, if for no other 471 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: reason than to finally clear his name in the court 472 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: of public opinion. If beer Brought was a noteworthy suspect 473 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: and could be circumstantially connected to Tammy's case, I needed 474 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 1: to understand how it fit and why the guy was 475 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 1: never charged. And for that I needed to find and 476 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 1: interview one person, Lonnie beer Brott's ex wife. So I 477 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 1: made calls, sent emails, left messages, and even knocked on 478 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 1: her door. And while I waited for her to respond, 479 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: another name kept nagging at me. One that came up 480 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 1: again and again as I spoke to members of law 481 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: enforcement and others who closely watched Tammy's case. Lonnie Demot 482 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 1: the other Lonnie, the guy who found Tammy's body and 483 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 1: claimed that he had helped police carry it from the 484 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 1: ditch to the roadside. Some were skeptical of Lonnie's narrative, 485 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: including the administrators of the who Killed Tammy ziwiki Facebook group. 486 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 1: The first post he made was in September of twenty twenty, 487 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 1: says I'm Lonnie Dumot. I'm the one who found Tammy. 488 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 1: Patrick Jones, the creator of the Facebook group, says Lonnie 489 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: Dumot's online behavior in recent years has raised a number 490 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: of red flags. He came in, he was posting like 491 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 1: a son of a bitch, and then people were all 492 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: of a sudden, everybody was asking the questions like you 493 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 1: wouldn't believe, and he's answering them. I asked them. A 494 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 1: million questions come to mind. How did you see anything 495 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: strange or out of place? Was there any tire tracks? 496 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 1: How was it lighting at the scene? Just curious, and 497 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 1: he just disappeared. I think he wanted to confess to something. 498 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: In my opinion that he wants to say, Hey, here's 499 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 1: what happened. As it turned out, armchair sluice weren't the 500 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:36,959 Speaker 1: only people interested in Lonnie Damot's version of events that day. Hi, 501 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 1: mister Damot, money and there's with the FBI at a 502 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: job in Missouri. And when you have an opportunity, did 503 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 1: you please give me a call back. Thank you, mister 504 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: Damont on the next episode of Paper Ghosts. The reasons 505 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: given for him coming off the highway depends on what 506 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: source you read, so we have some discrepancies as to 507 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 1: what actually was going on there. Well, I think you know. 508 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: I mean, it's always easy to tell the truth right 509 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,359 Speaker 1: when you start making up stories. It'll change over time. 510 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 1: I mean, if you know, if I told you'll lie 511 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 1: today and you came back to me five years later, 512 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 1: I'm asking the same question, I may not respond the 513 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 1: same way. The direction we went thereafter was because of 514 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 1: the information we had received. I don't think that he's 515 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,839 Speaker 1: been rolled out by the law enforcement, but I think 516 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,920 Speaker 1: he's got something to do with it. It's just too coincidental. 517 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 1: If you are enjoying Paper Ghosts, please listen to my 518 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,759 Speaker 1: other podcast, Crossing the Line with em William Phelps, where 519 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 1: I use the same storytelling elements you've heard in Paper 520 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:53,400 Speaker 1: Ghosts and cover missing person and murder cases. Paper Ghosts 521 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: is written and executive produced by me and William Phelps 522 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:03,799 Speaker 1: and iHeart executive producer Christina Everett. Additional writing by our 523 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:10,600 Speaker 1: supervising producer Julia Weaver. Our Associate producer is Darby Masters, 524 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: audio editing and mixing by Christian Bowman and Abu zafar Our. 525 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,719 Speaker 1: Series theme number four four two is written and performed 526 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:25,800 Speaker 1: by Thomas Phelps and Tom Mooney. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 527 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,800 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 528 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.