Speaker 1: This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,
Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underware listeningcast. You can't
Speaker 1: predict anything. The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you
Speaker 1: by First Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands,
Speaker 1: or scouting for el First Light has performance apparel to
Speaker 1: support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at
Speaker 1: first light dot com. F I R S T L
Speaker 1: I T E dot com. You were the man who
Speaker 1: just hunts birds now except let's let's it's Tomagwaen went
Speaker 1: on a pheasant last year. Tom mcgwaan has. It's like
Speaker 1: I appreciate with Tom mcgwaan.
Speaker 2: He's got He wrote a real good essay on mule
Speaker 2: deer hunting along.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that was a good that's good.
Speaker 3: But like when I get real serious about walking for roosters,
Speaker 3: especially like late season public land roosters, you tell me
Speaker 3: who's the bigger hunter?
Speaker 4: A dude who.
Speaker 3: Walks from their electric vehicle to a tree stand to
Speaker 3: shoot a white tail?
Speaker 1: Listen, I'm machine.
Speaker 4: This is an argument worth having.
Speaker 1: This machine is on. Phil's machine is on. I'm okay.
Speaker 1: Phil's machine is on. You miss something, but I'm try
Speaker 1: to explain where we're at on this, and then we're
Speaker 1: gonna we're gonna just to titillate, just to titillate. We're
Speaker 1: joined by the most important lawyer in America right now,
Speaker 1: Ryan samarand Samarad.
Speaker 4: How do you like to say that Samarad?
Speaker 1: Samarad most important?
Speaker 3: Just like it's spelled. Some people think, which always makes
Speaker 3: you feel good.
Speaker 1: I was seeing it in in there. I don't know why.
Speaker 1: I've looked at a thousand times. Some people think it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: the most important lawyer in America right now must be uh,
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 4: He's not even a lawyer anymore.
Speaker 1: Okay, scratch him. Most important lawyer in America right now
Speaker 1: is the lawyer that's defending No, no, no, it'd be
Speaker 1: like the lawyer that's defending President Trump in the in
Speaker 1: the in the in the Georgia election. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I'm just trying just pulling straws here. Some people might
Speaker 1: think that, right, they might think, whatever lawyer is going
Speaker 1: to litigate the next election in four and a half years,
Speaker 1: But there's no way that's going to be clear. There's
Speaker 1: no way. Everybody's just gonna go like yeah, figures don't.
Speaker 1: Why but no, it's this guy right here, right right
Speaker 1: in our studios, the most important lawyer in America. Why
Speaker 1: stay tuned back to what I said to what said, Well,
Speaker 1: I wasn't dogging on Okay, we're having a conversation about
Speaker 1: when public figures. When public figures in the conservation space,
Speaker 1: public figures and managed wildlife management will want to be
Speaker 1: able to have their sort of hunting bonafides and then
Speaker 1: leverage those to attack hunting. You will find that they
Speaker 1: often are I'm sorry, they often are bird hunters because
Speaker 1: they feel that they can do that right that they're
Speaker 1: they're hoping like, well, I hope this will buy me
Speaker 1: some street cred I can identify as. But then I
Speaker 1: will still be able to go to the cocktail parties
Speaker 1: that I'd like to go to because I'm not that bloody.
Speaker 5: Yeah, because I don't chase lions with hounds.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So it's like, it's not dogging on it. I'm
Speaker 1: not dogging. I'm just saying I've made a comment like
Speaker 1: beware the bird hunter. I didn't mean beware bird hunters.
Speaker 1: Bird huners. Great. He also clarified except Tom McGain because
Speaker 1: Tom mcgwaen was a big game hunter and eventually became
Speaker 1: a bird hunter. And when Yanni and I interviewed him
Speaker 1: years ago on this show, Tom mcgwen, he said, you know,
Speaker 1: of speaking of all hunting and he's a hunter. He
Speaker 1: said something to the effect of, you know, you are
Speaker 1: trying to kill things that want to stay alive. Can't
Speaker 1: ignore that, right, And well, no, he wasn't even he
Speaker 1: wasn't like acting. He was warning us out about his
Speaker 1: own his own self. And you're saying, are we gonna
Speaker 1: ignore are we honestly going to ignore this? Or can
Speaker 1: we talk about this for a minute, you know, And
Speaker 1: he's a novelist, he's supposed to he can't ignore. They're
Speaker 1: not allowed to ignore stuff. They have to talk about stuff.
Speaker 1: That's all I was saying. I wasn't hacking on bird
Speaker 1: hunters that I was. It was just that there's another
Speaker 1: there's I could just name a handful of them.
Speaker 3: Oh, the super annoying wolf grizzly guy.
Speaker 5: No, my goodness, no, no.
Speaker 1: No, I'm right.
Speaker 3: And and I think this is where I very much
Speaker 3: agree with you, like these people that it is very
Speaker 3: very common, like they do some fly angling and they
Speaker 3: own a breed of dog that is generally considered a
Speaker 3: bird dog that I believe just like fits the profile
Speaker 3: versus whisper.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I mean, what is it rhyme with?
Speaker 3: There's a lot whisper.
Speaker 1: What it rhymes with?
Speaker 3: Most of them are some dainty pointer or possibly a
Speaker 3: small flusher.
Speaker 2: But why can't we say it a red bone? Why
Speaker 2: can't we say the dog?
Speaker 4: Why can't we say the dogs?
Speaker 1: Because he doesn't want people to feel attacked, No, I don't, Well,
Speaker 1: there's not it's not an attack on the dog.
Speaker 2: It's just that these people own that kind of dog.
Speaker 3: Well, but there's several breeds though, like we could go
Speaker 3: through all the red I'm just saying that it's gonna
Speaker 3: be considered a bird dog, but that dog would not
Speaker 3: be considered a bird dog when compared to actual bird dogs,
Speaker 3: because it's not it's being used very casually, not very seriously.
Speaker 1: So that bird dog is a metaphor for that kind
Speaker 1: of hunter. Yeah, well, I'm joking, but there's a variety
Speaker 1: of breeds. I've taken this beatn the table you.
Speaker 3: And then this is where the fun part started for
Speaker 3: the audience, and I said, just you know, keep in
Speaker 3: mind late season rooster hunting, when I'm getting real serious
Speaker 3: about birds with the dog. If you compare what I'm
Speaker 3: doing compared to let's call them a hardcore, badass tree
Speaker 3: stand whitetail hunter.
Speaker 1: I don't think it is box blind.
Speaker 5: It is whitetail week cow.
Speaker 3: It is not by the time this place that you know,
Speaker 3: most circles would be like, well, this person is obviously
Speaker 3: working a little harder.
Speaker 1: Yep, But I'm not. Again, I'm not talking about the
Speaker 1: discipline or practice of I'm talking about the politics of Yes,
Speaker 1: why did well? No, because this is a little bit different,
Speaker 1: This is a little bit contradict. No, that's a bird.
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's still true, but historically a
Speaker 1: presidential candidate would want to establish their hunting bona fides.
Speaker 1: I believe this is true. I believe Hillary Clinton even
Speaker 1: linked herself to past hunters.
Speaker 6: She she famously told stories about.
Speaker 1: Going duck hunting growing up. John Kerry, what did he do?
Speaker 1: Remember him? Yep? John Kerry went on a goose hunt,
Speaker 1: didn't get one, and he made a very strange He
Speaker 1: made a very he made a very strange He did
Speaker 1: a strange move that that backfired. He had a guy
Speaker 1: carry his shotgun. So someone was sort of like, probably
Speaker 1: not best right to have a ton of photos of
Speaker 1: him with the shotgun, but instead you have a ton
Speaker 1: of photos of him looking like a country dandy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a typical way with carried his.
Speaker 1: Gun like as though it's like his caddy. And so
Speaker 1: then it became lampooned. But he still felt the need
Speaker 1: to establish his bona fides. Now you take this and
Speaker 1: look at where this. Mitt Romney had the same situation.
Speaker 1: Mitt Romney's like, oh, yeah, hunt, someone says, funny, you're
Speaker 1: not in the database of people who had so then
Speaker 1: he had to Then he had to be like and
Speaker 1: he's like, wow, I hunted varmits.
Speaker 6: I believe he's I believe you said I hunted varmints
Speaker 6: and such.
Speaker 1: And then you're like, yeah, I wish I had just
Speaker 1: never even brought this. I wish I'd never even brought
Speaker 1: this up.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the aids are scrambling. Oh boy, no, I think
Speaker 3: there's a There does exist a compilation of political figure
Speaker 3: photo ops, like awkward gun handling photo ops out there,
Speaker 3: and also like fishing, awkward fishing.
Speaker 4: You know it exists.
Speaker 1: But the dude not a quick thing before we get
Speaker 1: to the world's most important lawyer in the moment, some
Speaker 1: keeping it, you.
Speaker 3: Know, yeating, exactly, well done.
Speaker 1: I want to get them toea cocky, most important lawyer
Speaker 1: in the moment for the last collection of moments. How
Speaker 1: many years?
Speaker 4: About two? Okay, well I've been a lawyer for seven,
Speaker 4: but this case.
Speaker 1: About Yeah, we're gonna get to that heavy duty. It's
Speaker 1: good that you're here.
Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, can you just quick finish this thought up? The
Speaker 1: dude that the governor of Colorado is married to he's
Speaker 1: very outspoken animal rights. Actually yes, and there's.
Speaker 2: I mean, whatever, call it rumors, but there's definitely like
Speaker 2: people that say, well, president's president.
Speaker 1: Put it this way. A lot of people are saying a.
Speaker 2: Lot of people are saying that that's dictating policy towards
Speaker 2: hunting in Colorado.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, there's no argument that shows uh an
Speaker 3: administration doesn't sway the state Fishing Game Office, sure like
Speaker 3: in most most states that I'm aware of.
Speaker 7: But his home is not an elected official. Well yeah,
Speaker 7: but I mean I'm just saying, you know, pillow talk right, Yeah, true.
Speaker 7: You know, when we do our live show in Denver,
Speaker 7: Yanni invite Polish.
Speaker 5: Do we invite him?
Speaker 1: No, no, no, But I think that.
Speaker 5: That talk about this a little bit.
Speaker 1: I think that that live show should mostly be focused
Speaker 1: on this issue. I love it. You know.
Speaker 2: There are people, including myself to some degree, were kind
Speaker 2: of like when Polis was was running, like when he
Speaker 2: was a state representative. He was our state representative round
Speaker 2: Bail for a while, and he was very like pro
Speaker 2: public lands, did a lot to establish like he was
Speaker 2: doing stuff up at Camp Halee, doing stuff for like
Speaker 2: getting wilderness areas designated.
Speaker 5: Things you liked, things.
Speaker 2: I liked, right, But the hunting thing was like not
Speaker 2: even part of the part of the deal.
Speaker 1: So he was he was a good public lands advocate,
Speaker 1: was not a hunting advocate.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it wasn't like the radar because back then
Speaker 2: Hick and Looper wasn't anti hunting, like at least in
Speaker 2: any perceivable way.
Speaker 1: I mean you hunted with him, I think no, I
Speaker 1: would know he definitely wasn't.
Speaker 3: Oh he was at the one shot the way back
Speaker 3: when he.
Speaker 1: Definitely I mean, at great political risk to himself, he
Speaker 1: went to the one shot, meaning he went to the
Speaker 1: one shot in Wyhoming and everyone he knows everyone in
Speaker 1: the room hates him, and he knows that everyone back homes,
Speaker 1: everyone in the room hates him for his gun policy,
Speaker 1: everyone back home hates him. That he's hunting antelope, and
Speaker 1: he was having the best time of anybody there. I said,
Speaker 1: I did it with him. He's a cloud nine the
Speaker 1: whole time people are coming saying awful stuff to him.
Speaker 1: He's just having the time. I was like, this guy's
Speaker 1: got balls, man.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Polish was the first Colorado governor that bailed
Speaker 2: out of that one shot.
Speaker 1: No. I couldn't believe, man, I couldn't believe the hick
Speaker 1: and looper, Like, how how good of a time he
Speaker 1: was having in a situation that anybody else has been, Like,
Speaker 1: there's no way in the world, dude, I'm gonna have
Speaker 1: my gun record and go to Wyoming with a bunch
Speaker 1: of gun people and then have to come back home
Speaker 1: and everybody bitching me from the other side that I
Speaker 1: went down there with all them gun people.
Speaker 4: Hey, man, that's a you know, he's able to do both.
Speaker 2: That's a good politician, I guess, yeah.
Speaker 1: You know, because he came from the bar business. One
Speaker 1: thing you learn in the bar business is you learn
Speaker 1: how to sit in a hostile environment.
Speaker 3: That's the truth. That's amazing.
Speaker 1: You learn how to be around people that don't think
Speaker 1: what you think. Yep. Also, the twenty twenty four calendar
Speaker 1: is out, so if you if you purchased and loved
Speaker 1: fucked up old deer stands, fucked up old Taxidermy, we're
Speaker 1: taking a break from that run and it's called the
Speaker 1: Dirty dozen this year, but we'll get back.
Speaker 5: To the old basically like fucked up old TV personality
Speaker 5: hunting TV.
Speaker 1: And then in twenty twenty five. I'm still thinking fucked
Speaker 1: up old fish cleaning stations, but that's like heard, I
Speaker 1: like that one. But fucked up dirtish and boats is
Speaker 1: good to the dirtiest, nastiest fish cleaning.
Speaker 2: Stay sucked up old deer camps.
Speaker 1: I know some fish I've talked with tigraphers on They're like,
Speaker 1: it's hard to capture a dirty fish clean and.
Speaker 4: Stay the beauty of a dirty fish.
Speaker 1: It's hard to like because you either got to focus
Speaker 1: in on the dirty, slimy parts or you stand back.
Speaker 1: It's just hard to capture. If you talk to a
Speaker 1: photographer about it, it might need to be a video.
Speaker 1: A calendar that is full of videos. That's hard because
Speaker 1: there's different like layers of scale crime. Yeah, when you
Speaker 1: reach on a dilapidated structure.
Speaker 2: Have seth provide a good example of the cleaning station
Speaker 2: at the fish shack and say make a photo like this.
Speaker 4: I don't want that. I don't want to. I don't
Speaker 4: want to.
Speaker 1: I don't want to name the one. I can't name
Speaker 1: the one that's in my mind right now because it
Speaker 1: would be in politics to name the one's on my
Speaker 1: mind right now, but it'd have to be scratch and sniff.
Speaker 1: It's a scratch and sniff calendar.
Speaker 3: Were those ones with the grinder in the middle right,
Speaker 3: like in the July You go, oh yeah, so you're
Speaker 3: hitting the face and the eyeballs, and.
Speaker 2: Then someone throws a fifteen pound channel cat carcass in
Speaker 2: there and just the grinder locks up and everything.
Speaker 1: This grinder, Oh they're a genius, but they don't accept
Speaker 1: big calfish head, so it pull it grinds everything.
Speaker 5: This is a public Oh you throw a bluegill in there.
Speaker 1: It doesn't even change tune.
Speaker 4: Oh I threw in.
Speaker 5: Where do they go they use it for.
Speaker 1: Goes into the septic I'm guessing goes into the municipal.
Speaker 3: There's a chum pipe out and every lag.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean grinds it. Dude's cool, No, it's genius.
Speaker 1: There's one.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 1: The first one I ran into was in my home
Speaker 1: state of Michigan, not while I lived there, but when
Speaker 1: I visited there recently.
Speaker 5: But it's been that thing has been around a while.
Speaker 2: They got them all over Montana, Like all the way
Speaker 2: down the Missouri.
Speaker 5: Must not be cleaning that many fish.
Speaker 3: For Walleye folks, Like, yeah, they're they got.
Speaker 2: A hose my kids, that thing seeing all the fish
Speaker 2: coming in throwing those things in that ground.
Speaker 3: I had a very diplomatic situation one night. This is
Speaker 3: a very quick story, but we were at this deal.
Speaker 3: We went out fishing with this guy. It was very serious. Walleyee.
Speaker 3: We get up to the fish cleaning station. There's two
Speaker 3: guides there. You can tell there. You can just tell
Speaker 3: at what stage of their day they're in stage home
Speaker 3: and both right, it's like it's late. It was a
Speaker 3: really cold, windy day out of the Missouri out in
Speaker 3: South Dakota. And I watch our guy who's just like
Speaker 3: this aggressive old football player type. Have no, he doesn't
Speaker 3: even acknowledge that these other people exist at the cleaning station,
Speaker 3: and so when he's grabbing the hose and hosing stuff off,
Speaker 3: he's just I mean, and you can see the temperature
Speaker 3: is rising.
Speaker 1: Yea.
Speaker 3: So I'm like backpedaling like a free safety Steve and
Speaker 3: I get to the boat and I like dig out
Speaker 3: or pack of beer haul ass to the fish cleaning station. Like, hey, guys,
Speaker 3: look like he had a long day, Dima. You just
Speaker 3: see like the thermometer was like right at the very
Speaker 3: top and she just started coming down.
Speaker 1: It's just like, oh my god, We're gonna do one
Speaker 1: news item, and this is this is one of those ones.
Speaker 1: This is a story that never goes away. It just
Speaker 1: moves generally from island. This is a story that moves
Speaker 1: from island to island around America, probably globally. Catalina Island
Speaker 1: mule deer versus native plants and grasses. A plan to
Speaker 1: use helicopter mounted sharpshooters to kill nearly two thousand invasive
Speaker 1: mule deers roaming the mountains of Santa Catalina Island has
Speaker 1: ignited a storm of protests among residents of the popular
Speaker 1: resort destination and prompt the calls for state wildlife officials
Speaker 1: to block the hunts. Now I've been out there because
Speaker 1: I went out there because they have a.
Speaker 5: Called a hunt.
Speaker 1: They have a hunt.
Speaker 5: No I know, but they should.
Speaker 1: I don't know why they're calling that a hunt. Yeah, eradication, Okay,
Speaker 1: So reason to say this just jumps from island to
Speaker 1: island around the country. Islands being what they are, there's
Speaker 1: a whole discipline if you want to if listeners want
Speaker 1: to get real serious about this, there's a whole discipline
Speaker 1: called island biogeography. Islands being what they are, oftentimes didn't
Speaker 1: get large. You know, they don't have large mammals on them.
Speaker 1: Birds find them, right, and then oftentimes little stuff finds them.
Speaker 1: But a lot of times islands don't have full suites
Speaker 1: of large mammals, and people being people, they get out
Speaker 1: to an island, they're like, damn, this place to be
Speaker 1: a lot better with a bunch of X, and they
Speaker 1: turn it loose. And then what they don't turn loose
Speaker 1: is coyotes and wolves and lions, and pretty soon you have,
Speaker 1: you know, insane populations of ungulates, meaning what could be
Speaker 1: wild sheep could be omnivores like pigs. What am I missing?
Speaker 1: Axes deer well elk.
Speaker 2: The funny thing is is I had a buddy in
Speaker 2: college that was a wildlife and fishery science major. His
Speaker 2: first job out of college was on Catalina Island eradicating
Speaker 2: goats and pigs, and like they weren't complaining about that
Speaker 2: back now, I understand, but he killed so many of
Speaker 2: those things. He said, like after a couple of years,
Speaker 2: he was just like he he was a hunter, and
Speaker 2: he was just like overwhelmed by the mind.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the dirtiest deed I've ever heard of when you're
Speaker 1: doing goat control on islands. You know about the goot,
Speaker 1: the Judas goat, I've heard. Yeah, Man, those those guys,
Speaker 1: those sharpshooter dudes. They'll take a goat right and put
Speaker 1: a little track and collar on him and let them
Speaker 1: go go find your bodies. And you wait awhile, and
Speaker 1: you just know that goat's gonna find the other goats.
Speaker 1: You know what it is? They stole that idea from
Speaker 1: Red Dawn. Do you remember that kid's a great and
Speaker 1: Red Dawn. That kid went into town. He wasn't supposed
Speaker 1: to go into town, and the ruskies caught him and
Speaker 1: they made him swallow that tracking device, and then the
Speaker 1: Ruskies came for him and they killed all the rooskies,
Speaker 1: and then they had they got that tracking device, and
Speaker 1: he's like trying to figure out who in the tracking
Speaker 1: device leads him right to his third buddy and he
Speaker 1: shoots them. That's where they got that idea for the
Speaker 1: Judas go good meal deer hout and see in that
Speaker 1: movie too. Oh yeah, brings it right back around to
Speaker 1: what I was talking about. This moves around all the time.
Speaker 1: So you have islands, and islands have just the same
Speaker 1: bio island biogeography that perhaps keeps you know, grazers off
Speaker 1: allows islands to develop unique suites of vegetation, right, sometimes
Speaker 1: unique suites of vegetation that don't exist anywhere else on
Speaker 1: the planet. But then you move grazers out there, and grazers,
Speaker 1: you know, graysed down native vegetations. They create a disturbed ecosystem.
Speaker 1: You still have people running around, they're introducing non native
Speaker 1: weeds intentionally accidentally, they're planning ornamentals, whatever. And then pretty
Speaker 1: soon you have this island that was full of endemic species,
Speaker 1: meaning things found nowhere else or communities found nowhere else.
Speaker 1: And then it kind of looks a lot like Mainland,
Speaker 1: meaning you know you got cheat grass and melder whatever
Speaker 1: the hell. Just you see this all the time. So
Speaker 1: they're always debating this out like in the in Hawaii.
Speaker 1: You know, there's a big thing in Maui, for instance,
Speaker 1: tons of axes deer, a lot of people hunt them
Speaker 1: in love access deer.
Speaker 4: A lot of.
Speaker 1: People are like, they don't belong here, they're brought by people.
Speaker 1: They're destroying endemic species. And it's just just this argument
Speaker 1: that floats around and never goes away. And it's a
Speaker 1: tricky one for me because I'm always you know, like anybody,
Speaker 1: I like to see, you know, lots of animals to
Speaker 1: go hunting for, and and like anyone I like to
Speaker 1: you know, I like to preserve the planet's biodiversity. So
Speaker 1: Catalina Island has mule deer, and they have American buffalo
Speaker 1: or bison. They have those because of they filmed the
Speaker 1: movie out there and brought them out there, and they're
Speaker 1: still out there running around, you know, free ranging, semi wild.
Speaker 1: But apparently now they're gonna they're they're they're fixing to
Speaker 1: eliminate the mule deer right now. They are allowing uh,
Speaker 1: right now, they're allowing two hundred of these deer to
Speaker 1: get one hundred a year, so you can get permits
Speaker 1: and hunt two hundred deer a year. But they're looking
Speaker 1: just to put the kibosh on the whole thing and
Speaker 1: use helicopters to kill all the year. And some people
Speaker 1: ain't happy.
Speaker 3: They make the hunt very complicated.
Speaker 1: They do do know anything about it.
Speaker 3: I've looked into you know that.
Speaker 1: I didn't know that it existed.
Speaker 3: I looked into it well because I had this dream
Speaker 3: of participating in the hunt while lobster season was in
Speaker 3: was happening, right, so you could go hunt mule deer
Speaker 3: and then go dive for lobsters at night. Sounds pretty awesome.
Speaker 3: Camp on a beach. I mean you're getting the picture right,
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, lovely, yeah's island island oasis. But the yeah,
Speaker 3: the there's they heavily incentivize, like the use of outfitters
Speaker 3: on the island. It was just like overly complicated to
Speaker 3: get through just to get the information that you want
Speaker 3: to go out there and hunt other toads out there.
Speaker 1: I have seen.
Speaker 3: Some nice sheds on people's shelves and stuff out there,
Speaker 3: but I'm not sure if they're growing anything like real big.
Speaker 3: I'm sure it's pretty darn incesty out there, got it. Yeah,
Speaker 3: And I know there's also just you know, there's not
Speaker 3: an over abundance of fresh water on the island it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So this is one of those ones. If I
Speaker 1: live there, I'd be passed it is. It's a thorny one.
Speaker 1: So come up with your own decisions about that.
Speaker 3: Well, the bison are a tourist trap, and that's.
Speaker 1: Why I went there when I was working on my
Speaker 1: Buffalo book. I went, oh, that's wild.
Speaker 3: And yeah, I mean the the deer people can they
Speaker 3: are more available for people to go out and hunt.
Speaker 3: Harvard can eat. It's no brainer to me. You can
Speaker 3: have your your five bison out there and have your
Speaker 3: Jurassic Park experience and and let people actually go hunt
Speaker 3: the meal deer.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and maybe just increase the tags so that so
Speaker 5: that the native flora can actually handle the pressure.
Speaker 1: That's why is that not part of the conversation. If
Speaker 1: you have two thousand and you're killing ten percent a year,
Speaker 1: why why not for a while kill twenty percent a
Speaker 1: year or fifty yeah, or fifty and then and then
Speaker 1: and then see what the I don't see what the
Speaker 1: impact is. Well, they're not killing enough. That's solvable. At
Speaker 1: what point get one? Here's the guy that here's the
Speaker 1: guy that wants to get one.
Speaker 2: It is California, Like, do they really want to.
Speaker 1: Use hunting to solve their problem?
Speaker 5: You know, it's.
Speaker 3: Anecdotal, but there used to be. I was told from
Speaker 3: a resident of Catalina that it used to be you
Speaker 3: could only kill a buck if you killed a doe
Speaker 3: or possibly two doughs.
Speaker 4: At one point a buck.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's one hundred dog duran's perking up a bug?
Speaker 1: Is that all?
Speaker 3: Which I think is probably a lot for I mean,
Speaker 3: that thing is a desert rock out there.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so it seems like one hundred and fifty bison
Speaker 5: could be eating as much as those two thousand mule deer.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's an easy math to do.
Speaker 1: All right. Ryan Samarat the corner the Corner Crossing lawyer,
Speaker 1: the lawyer who is representing the Wyoming corner crossers that
Speaker 1: have just been in the news and we've spent endless
Speaker 1: amounts of time on this. We had the four we
Speaker 1: had how many guys from from Missouri came out? We
Speaker 1: had two, We had some of the corner crossers from
Speaker 1: Missouri come out. They've been on the show. We've had
Speaker 1: analysts and other lawyers on the show to talk about this.
Speaker 1: But right now we're gonna hear updates, insight, narratives, and
Speaker 1: explanations from the actual attorney who's in there duking it
Speaker 1: out in the courtrooms. Good to be here now, I'm
Speaker 1: so sick of explaining it. You explain it for a minute,
Speaker 1: do a high level do the high level explanation. We'll
Speaker 1: introduce yourself to that.
Speaker 4: Yeah. So my name is Ryan Summerad. I'm an attorney
Speaker 4: living Casper.
Speaker 1: Where were you born.
Speaker 4: I'm born in upstate New York, Chenectady. Uh. And in
Speaker 4: light of your long conversation about the politics of non
Speaker 4: hunters and visuals, I'll tell you I don't hunt at all.
Speaker 1: You don't hunt at all, not at.
Speaker 4: All, So just see you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, number of did no background research?
Speaker 1: Yeah, probably do.
Speaker 6: You could probably get some good invites to some hunting
Speaker 6: camps after this whole mess.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you got a lot of That was my question.
Speaker 5: Have you had opportunity your dec to hunt, like, have
Speaker 5: you dabbled or you just have never not?
Speaker 4: Didn't grow up with it? Mom and dad weren't part
Speaker 4: of that family, wasn't part of my uncle.
Speaker 3: I think I'm a little bit go to law school
Speaker 3: Ohio States.
Speaker 4: So how'd you wind up in it's the yeah you're
Speaker 4: supposed to say the thing? Uh, so came about a girl.
Speaker 4: My wife's born raising Casper. You meet her at Ohio State.
Speaker 4: She's a lawyer too.
Speaker 1: There was a law dog and all the time.
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, actually her and her firm assisted on the case.
Speaker 4: Really yeah yeah, no hunting, no hunting, no hunting at all. Yeah,
Speaker 4: huh yeah.
Speaker 1: Uh but actually glad.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so a lot of this stuff is just interesting
Speaker 4: to me. I mean I don't know much about it,
Speaker 4: but it's interesting hearing you guys talk about it.
Speaker 1: But uh, what do you think about that island out
Speaker 1: there in California? Yeah, what'd you take?
Speaker 5: Well?
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, eradicating from a helicopter seems a
Speaker 4: little ungamely on sports after sports? Uh, but yeah, I
Speaker 4: mean I think they should let colg hunt a little bit.
Speaker 1: I think leg.
Speaker 4: That's a perspective, that's a perspective.
Speaker 3: Problem is with these guys. You got to pay a
Speaker 3: lot just for a letter that says they recommend that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's a that's a freebie for you.
Speaker 5: They call that pro bono.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, so about this corner crossing things. So I
Speaker 4: guess I want to do a little more background. Oh yeah, sure, sure, sure.
Speaker 1: You meet you're in law school, you meet another law school.
Speaker 1: Do you guys call each other candidates?
Speaker 4: Classmates?
Speaker 1: Randall here has got a pH d. He probably told
Speaker 1: you about that, didn't He cal called them doctor told uh, okay,
Speaker 1: So you're in law school, you meet your wife. She's
Speaker 1: in law school, and at some point she says, I
Speaker 1: would like to get back. I would like to get
Speaker 1: back home to Wyoming a few.
Speaker 4: More stops along the way. Actually, So my first job
Speaker 4: was working for a law firm in Cleveland, and her
Speaker 4: first job was working for a law firm in Las Vegas.
Speaker 4: So I was flying to Vegas like every other week,
Speaker 4: it felt like, And I'm sure there were some questions
Speaker 4: at the office, why Ryan's leaving all the time to
Speaker 4: go to Vegas day every Friday? There I was, He's back,
Speaker 4: but now I was just going to visit her and
Speaker 4: wanted to. We weren't even engaged at the time, but
Speaker 4: kind of knew she was the one. So I got
Speaker 4: a job lined up out there, working with a judge,
Speaker 4: so I could be out there starting in twenty seventeen.
Speaker 4: And funny, just funny story getting out there. I actually
Speaker 4: my wildlife experience. Here's my wildlife experience. You're ready for it.
Speaker 4: There were friends we had in Vegas. They had two turtles,
Speaker 4: Bonnie and Claus. Clyde was living in Ohio with their daughter,
Speaker 4: and they asked me, because they knew that I was
Speaker 4: moving to Vegas, if I would mind transport and Clyde
Speaker 4: back to Bonnie. Uh.
Speaker 5: So I drove.
Speaker 4: Had I had him in a little plastic container, a
Speaker 4: little bit of water, and he was sitting in the
Speaker 4: passenger shoes just me.
Speaker 3: Me and Clyde to him and be like, so, what
Speaker 3: are you gonna say when you see her?
Speaker 1: That's right? A buddy movie?
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, So we we drew drove from Cleveland and
Speaker 4: then our first stop was in Des Moines, and then
Speaker 4: we went from Des Moines to Frisco, Colorado. We broke
Speaker 4: down in Utah and had to stay. I can't remember
Speaker 4: exactly where we were in Utah. I was driving a
Speaker 4: little uh Chevy Cruise I had, and coming through Frisco.
Speaker 4: One of my windshow wipers stopped working, so I had
Speaker 4: to kind of stick my head. It's hard to snow.
Speaker 4: It was in May, but it was snowing going up
Speaker 4: the mountains, and.
Speaker 1: Thought being a lawyer was supposed to be a lot.
Speaker 1: Transfer broke down the turtle.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I broke down in Utah and somebody came
Speaker 4: gave me a lyft tow truck driver and I'm sitting
Speaker 4: there now in the tow truck with me and me
Speaker 4: and Clyde and uh and then uh yeah, we we
Speaker 4: stayed at a hotel for the night, got the car
Speaker 4: fixed up, back on my way, made it to Vegas,
Speaker 4: and reunited Bonnie and Clyde.
Speaker 3: So I tow truck drivers. Like, let me tell you
Speaker 3: about people from another podcast.
Speaker 1: Right now, this guy with the turtle. Yeah, this bitch
Speaker 1: gets out he's got a turtle. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 6: He claims to me that he's reuniting the turtle.
Speaker 4: True story. I got photos.
Speaker 2: But yeah, uh so then that's my wildlife adventures.
Speaker 4: I transported a turtle across the country. But yeah, so
Speaker 4: then I was in Vegas. I was clerking for a judge.
Speaker 4: There After I finished doing that, I worked for a
Speaker 4: firm called Holland and Hart did that for a couple
Speaker 4: of years, and then when my wife and I were
Speaker 4: planning our to have a kid, we were like, well,
Speaker 4: we don't we want to move back closer to some family,
Speaker 4: and so we decided to go back closer to her
Speaker 4: family and Casper, and we moved. It was like the
Speaker 4: first week of March twenty twenty, really interesting time in
Speaker 4: the world. And yeah, we moved to Casper and I've
Speaker 4: been there ever since. But that you guys work at
Speaker 4: different firms, different firms. Yeah, she still works for the
Speaker 4: firms based in Vegas, her firm, and it has offices
Speaker 4: in California and Colorado.
Speaker 2: And then my firm is basically me. So what's it
Speaker 2: called Fuller and Samarad?
Speaker 1: Who's Fuller?
Speaker 4: Don Fuller is my law partner.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, yeah, all right, So now you can do
Speaker 1: one or two things up to you, sure lawyer's choice.
Speaker 1: You either explain how this how this whole thing came
Speaker 1: to you or you explain what it is. But whatever order,
Speaker 1: both those things are gonna need to happen. Obviously, I'm
Speaker 1: just putting you in my shoes as an interviewer. Yeah, sure,
Speaker 1: Like I need to get that covered.
Speaker 4: I'll try to help you out. I'll try to help
Speaker 4: you out. I can do it, you can, you know,
Speaker 4: I'll I'll tell you how it came to me, because
Speaker 4: that's probably the best way for me to explain it,
Speaker 4: because again, I don't know nothing about nothing. Checkerboard was
Speaker 4: a you know, it's where you played chess, the door checkers.
Speaker 4: I guess it's that's that's really That's really all I
Speaker 4: knew about it. So, uh, yeah, it was November December
Speaker 4: of twenty one and I got a call from another
Speaker 4: attorney in town who said, hey, uh, one of those
Speaker 4: corner hoppers needs another attorney and you want to do it.
Speaker 4: And I said to myself, what, what the fuck is
Speaker 4: corner hopping? What do you what are you talking? I mean,
Speaker 4: I didn't care. I'll take case. I mean, I don't
Speaker 4: know what that is, but sure he seemed there was
Speaker 4: a lot of employed in that statement, like like I
Speaker 4: would know what that was, and I'd be really, yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Was gonna ask, like, is that something lawyers and Casper
Speaker 2: kind of I don't want to touch.
Speaker 1: Well, well, no, why didn't he want it?
Speaker 4: So no, he he did. He represented one of the hunters,
Speaker 4: but so So in a criminal case, generally speaking, you
Speaker 4: don't want to have one attorney representing multiple people because hey,
Speaker 4: what if somebody wants to snitch? You know, that kind
Speaker 4: of puts you in a bad spider. Where do you
Speaker 4: guys use snitch? We call it proffering. Yeah, in the business,
Speaker 4: you'd say, my client's interested in proffering. God, that's the
Speaker 4: other side's kind.
Speaker 1: So who is it? So if you have a gang
Speaker 1: of criminals, this is way off subject.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Sure, let's say you have a gang of just reg
Speaker 1: old bank robbers. Sure, they know they don't want all
Speaker 1: one lawyer, Like, who doesn't want them to all have
Speaker 1: one lawyer?
Speaker 4: Well, the state bar says that we are not we're conflicted,
Speaker 4: you know if I have an interest? Yeah yeah, But.
Speaker 1: It's not a defense strategy, it's just a it's just
Speaker 1: a practice that's generally.
Speaker 4: Kind of both ways because it does put you in
Speaker 4: a bad spot if if you were to represent everybody,
Speaker 4: unless everybody's going to agree, you know, it's all for one,
Speaker 4: one for all, and we're not gonna cross swords. But
Speaker 4: you just you know, it's really hard to put yourself
Speaker 4: in that position where yours everybody Yeah, yeah, yeah, So
Speaker 4: I got this call, mainly because there were four of them,
Speaker 4: and you know one I think at that point two
Speaker 4: of the four already had attorneys, and so I said, sure,
Speaker 4: I'll jump in on one of them, though I knew
Speaker 4: nothing about it.
Speaker 1: I not gonna turn down business.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it was a good friend of mine, so
Speaker 4: I was like, yeah, absolutely, I'll help for sure a report. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: for sure, for sure. So I jumped in and one
Speaker 4: of the first things I did is call I mean,
Speaker 4: you know, I got friends in Wyoming who hunt, so
Speaker 4: you know, I can talk to them about things, and
Speaker 4: they they know quite a bit about some stuff.
Speaker 1: You're like, yes, Ryan, the guy with the turtle, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's right, Hey, I got I gotta I got a
Speaker 1: question for you.
Speaker 4: So so I call a buddy actually, and I asked him.
Speaker 4: I was like, what what is corner crossing? What is
Speaker 4: what is? What am I looking at here? And the
Speaker 4: way he kind of explained it to me is like
Speaker 4: kind of a little bigger than just corner crossing specifically,
Speaker 4: but about access and how it used to be and
Speaker 4: if if you wanted to hunt somewhere but you knew
Speaker 4: that there was some private land or there was a
Speaker 4: ranch or whatever. You could go contact the owner of
Speaker 4: that property or whoever's at the ranch manager say look, hey,
Speaker 4: I want to go hunt over there. Are you okay
Speaker 4: with it? Or hey, would you like me to help
Speaker 4: you out on the ranch a little bit in exchange
Speaker 4: if you'll let me go there. But there's been this
Speaker 4: big dramatic shift and kind of pay to play that. Okay,
Speaker 4: you're either going to use our outfitter outfitter and pay
Speaker 4: for it to get there, or you're not going at all,
Speaker 4: or there's no communication whatsoever. And that's kind of the
Speaker 4: broader picture of just it used to be, Oh, I
Speaker 4: want to go over there because I'm going to go
Speaker 4: hunt or whatever it is I want to do, and
Speaker 4: that door has been closed. And corner crossing is just
Speaker 4: like a subspecies of that whole problem, and it's and
Speaker 4: it has more to do with this unique land pattern,
Speaker 4: the checkerboard, which is alternating public in private square mile chunks.
Speaker 4: You know, looks like a checkerboard, and where the public
Speaker 4: and public share a corner with the private and private,
Speaker 4: there's this philosophical, moral, legal question of whether or not
Speaker 4: a person can go from that public square to the
Speaker 4: other public square that would be your corner cross.
Speaker 1: I like that you just put it as philosophical, moral
Speaker 1: and legal. Yeah, I don't know that.
Speaker 3: Okay, I mean I know the answer, but oh yeah,
Speaker 3: what was the answer?
Speaker 4: Cal can you?
Speaker 3: Of course you can't walking in public.
Speaker 1: Plan like my issue.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Philosophical, yes, legal, yes, I just haven't found a looking
Speaker 1: at it at both sides, I haven't found a moral component.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, so I guess the way that I always
Speaker 4: but I.
Speaker 1: Don't want to derail yourself.
Speaker 4: No no, no, no, no, no no no. I mean
Speaker 4: when I think about this access generally or private property generally,
Speaker 4: I mean, first of all, by the way, I also
Speaker 4: did not like property law in law school. I thought
Speaker 4: it was really dry and I don't know find and
Speaker 4: here I find myself with the hunters and the property loss.
Speaker 4: But that what I say moral. I think property law
Speaker 4: is always going to be kind of a moral choice
Speaker 4: because it's both the most arbitrary kind of law we have,
Speaker 4: because it's just imaginary lines drawn out in the world.
Speaker 4: But it's also the thing that you know, we kill
Speaker 4: the most people over. I mean, wars are always about property,
Speaker 4: and I've always been And so when there's a question
Speaker 4: of Okay, can I cross this corner? Sure, there's there's
Speaker 4: there's legal, and there's the philosophical side of you know,
Speaker 4: what does it all mean? But from a moral perspective
Speaker 4: of well, when it is ambiguous, or at least it
Speaker 4: used to be, or it's getting less ambiguous. But when
Speaker 4: it was ambiguous, am I doing something that is offending
Speaker 4: the private property owner in a fundamental way? Am I
Speaker 4: harming them? I damaging them? Am I going to do that?
Speaker 4: You know? Am I going to be that kind of person?
Speaker 4: Am I going to cross that rubicon? And I think
Speaker 4: that that And then with the whole criminal side, I mean,
Speaker 4: the whole criminal the difference between criminal and civil is
Speaker 4: supposed to be. The criminal stuff is moral judgments we
Speaker 4: make as a society and we're punishing you for it,
Speaker 4: and civil is supposed to not have that necessary, necessarily,
Speaker 4: that component to it. So that's kind of the way
Speaker 4: I looked at it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, whatever, it's all that. Yeah, Yeah, I give It's.
Speaker 5: Like he's a good lawyer, he's got a strong argument.
Speaker 4: Yeah, she's going to law Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, So so you have that kind of basic situation.
Speaker 4: If you want to know more about the history of
Speaker 4: the check reboard or whatever. I'm happy to tell you.
Speaker 4: But the way it really erupted in this instance is
Speaker 4: these three, originally two Missouri hunters, were hunting elsewhere in
Speaker 4: Wyoming in twenty nineteen and passed through Carbon County near
Speaker 4: Elk Mountain. And I have to say it because I
Speaker 4: just love the phrase. And Phil Yeoman's my client in
Speaker 4: the criminal case, said it in his deposition in the
Speaker 4: civil case. You know why what attracted you about Elk
Speaker 4: Mountain that area? And he said it, and his deposition
Speaker 4: is great, looked Elkie. That's what he said. He said that,
Speaker 4: and we all left. Yeah, yeah, established this fact, that's
Speaker 4: what he said.
Speaker 1: Objection, Yeah, I found the bunch grass load.
Speaker 4: To be And so they just looked around, no one
Speaker 4: was there, and thought it looked Elki and they were like, well,
Speaker 4: we got to figure this out. So they go home
Speaker 4: and they apply for a tag and it's going to
Speaker 4: be at In twenty twenty, it was Phil Yeoman's, Brad
Speaker 4: Cape and Zach Smith, those three guys alone, and they
Speaker 4: went out and they hunted that area and they did
Speaker 4: some research beforehand, and their research said to them, well,
Speaker 4: they've got to have access because there's some federal law
Speaker 4: and federal guidance out there that says you can't obstruct
Speaker 4: access to public land. Just can't do it. And so
Speaker 4: their perspective was, we can't. We should. If you can't
Speaker 4: stop me, then I should be able to do it.
Speaker 4: They get out there and they arrive at in its corner.
Speaker 4: It's checkerboarded right in that area, right on Elk Mountain,
Speaker 4: right off Rattlesnake pass Road is where they went. Section fourteen.
Speaker 4: Section twenty four is kind of the that's the primary
Speaker 4: access point to the southeast portion facing southeast of Elk Mountain.
Speaker 4: And they approach the corner and at the very first
Speaker 4: corner there are two T posts and they're about a
Speaker 4: foot away from each other. And the T posts.
Speaker 1: Did you know what a T post was before this?
Speaker 4: Nope, no idea, no idea what a TE post was.
Speaker 4: The answer is gonna be no to most of this stuff.
Speaker 4: So stuff that I've learned.
Speaker 1: Education.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's been an educational thing. Two T posts, two
Speaker 4: tposts have no trespassing signs on them with a phone
Speaker 4: number and Elk Mountain Ranch that's what it says. And
Speaker 4: they're connected by chains and the chains are locked together,
Speaker 4: So it's this kind of I always looked at it.
Speaker 4: It's kind of you get to the front door of
Speaker 4: a club and the bouncer has that velvet little rope,
Speaker 4: so it's kind of let you in, let you not in.
Speaker 4: That's kind of what it looked like to me. That's
Speaker 4: how I always visualized it is. That's just real weird,
Speaker 4: so strange out in the middle of nowhere, so there's
Speaker 4: nothing else around it. And so they knew they had
Speaker 4: to get past that to keep hunting on public land,
Speaker 4: and so they each individually just grabbed onto the one
Speaker 4: t posts and swung their body from the one square
Speaker 4: of public land to the next square public land without
Speaker 4: touching the private on either side, and went on their business.
Speaker 4: And then they used on X their eyes and located
Speaker 4: the rest of the actual us OR survey stakes at
Speaker 4: each corner and just crossed over those corners to proceed
Speaker 4: onward hunted. And it was a pretty successful hunt because
Speaker 4: they're kind of by themselves, no one else out there.
Speaker 4: But you know, trouble came knocking because the ranch manager
Speaker 4: found them. They were actually field dressing one other elk.
Speaker 4: I think they only hunted elk that year and we
Speaker 4: have an audio recording of it. Actually we got through discovery.
Speaker 3: Do you have to say, can you explain field dress?
Speaker 4: Look, I'm using the term I don't even think I
Speaker 4: still know what So if it sounds clunky, that's it's
Speaker 4: like I'm speaking Germany for the first But yeah, so
Speaker 4: that we have an audio recording of it, and ranch
Speaker 4: manager approaches him basically says, like what he made.
Speaker 1: The audio recording Zach Smith, Yeah, just.
Speaker 3: Because he had a feeling like this wasn't going to
Speaker 3: be a pleasant thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah.
Speaker 1: So if someone makes an audio recording, it usually carries
Speaker 1: with it, uh that they feel they're in the.
Speaker 4: Right and and you can it's pretty emphatic on the
Speaker 4: recording too, because they they say just as much to it.
Speaker 4: Was Steve Grendi, the ranch manager for Elk Mountain Ranch, that, uh,
Speaker 4: they everything they've read says that they're doing the right thing.
Speaker 4: And they explained to them exactly what they had been doing.
Speaker 4: And and they were on a section of public land
Speaker 4: at that time during that initial interaction, and and so
Speaker 4: he basically says, you it's it's illegal to corner across.
Speaker 4: You can't do it. I'm gonna have to report you
Speaker 4: to the authorities and so forth. So that after that,
Speaker 4: Steve Grandy and others at Elk Mountain contact the Carbon
Speaker 4: County Sheriff's office several times trying to get them to
Speaker 4: issue citations or in fact, according to the owner of
Speaker 4: the property, arrest these guys and rip them off the mountain.
Speaker 1: He wanted Kaufman stuff them.
Speaker 4: He did. We had say that's exactly what he wanted,
Speaker 4: and that did not happen. The Sheriff's deputy did interact
Speaker 4: with the with Brad, Phil and Zach. They had an
Speaker 4: in person conversation about what had happened. No citations were issued.
Speaker 4: They basically said, yeah, you're good to go, man, We
Speaker 4: appreciate you telling us what happened. That was it and
Speaker 4: that was the end of twenty twenty. Nothing else but
Speaker 4: the primary thing, and I skipped over this, but the
Speaker 4: primary thing that Steve said is the fact that you
Speaker 4: touch that te post, that's a trespass. You touch that
Speaker 4: tea post, you make contact with our property, that's that's
Speaker 4: your trespass. So that's stuck in their head like, well
Speaker 4: that's a problem, that's his big problem. We'll solve that.
Speaker 4: Because you see Brad is a fence builder by trade.
Speaker 1: So he that's one of my favorite details.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so he is.
Speaker 1: My favorite details of this whole thing is he's in
Speaker 1: the fencing business.
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, so he so he builds Fancy's plants, a
Speaker 4: tea post. He knows how this work. He knows exactly
Speaker 4: how high a tea post is.
Speaker 1: This is a movie, like, oh right.
Speaker 6: It's like a heist movie where they get all the
Speaker 6: all the guy specialized skills together.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Can you imagine like the Great Wall of China, right,
Speaker 3: and like the Mongol Horde coming up to the edge
Speaker 3: and one guy in the hoard being like, you know
Speaker 3: why that doesn't intimidate me? Wall builder by trade?
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah. So so to to Brad, he's like, well
Speaker 4: that's solvable. Gets home and he says, I'm gonna I'm
Speaker 4: gonna fabricate an a frame ladder that's sized to a
Speaker 4: T post so that when we get there, we'll do
Speaker 4: the same deal, but we won't touch the T posts
Speaker 4: or the chain because that seems to be the problem.
Speaker 4: And we want to go back because it's Elkie and
Speaker 4: it's fun hunting and there's no one else there and
Speaker 4: lots of public land, so they go home. There's no
Speaker 4: criminal activity afoot. That just that weird interaction with Steve
Speaker 4: and the conversation. They have the sheriff's office and.
Speaker 1: I can I ask quick questions? Yeah, when the sheriff
Speaker 1: comes out and he susses everything out and they leave
Speaker 1: it that that okay, You're cool. Uh. The ranch manager
Speaker 1: does not act. He is not an agreement.
Speaker 4: Well, he was very upset that that time around.
Speaker 1: He was upset that he wasn't like, oh, thanks for
Speaker 1: the clarification, My bad.
Speaker 4: No, he was not thanks for the clarification. In fact,
Speaker 4: what he told us later in the case is that
Speaker 4: he was under the impression that something was going to happen,
Speaker 4: that the sheriff's office was going to issue citations or
Speaker 4: do something later. But they were gone, the hunt was over,
Speaker 4: and he was kind of over it for the time being.
Speaker 1: He felt that they would follow up.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was his perspective. So twenty one
Speaker 4: comes around, Brad fabricates his ladder. They continue to do
Speaker 4: their homework and nothing has changed. They the law side
Speaker 4: of it, They think everything is exactly the same as
Speaker 4: it was in twenty twenty. Were still good to go.
Speaker 4: We had that interaction with the sheriff. Certainly if we
Speaker 4: had done something wrong, the sheriff would have cited us.
Speaker 4: I mean we talked to him, he had all of
Speaker 4: our contact information. Something would happen, and we knew they're
Speaker 4: The big issue with Grendee was touching the tea posts
Speaker 4: will build the ladder. They go back, they get tags,
Speaker 4: and they go back to hunting twenty one and they
Speaker 4: bring a fourth person this time, and as John Slowinsky
Speaker 4: and I'm telling you, you say the cinematic quality of this thing.
Speaker 4: So he got Brad the fence builder. Zack Smith works
Speaker 4: for Brad building fences. Phil Yeomans, if I get this right,
Speaker 4: I believe is married to Brad's sister, or maybe John's
Speaker 4: married to Brad's sister. John Slewinsky is a director of
Speaker 4: a band out of high school. So you know, this
Speaker 4: is the motley crew of dangerous thugs we're dealing with
Speaker 4: here is you know, John the band director, fence builder,
Speaker 4: his employee, and then Phil Yeomans, who dy or he
Speaker 4: repairs delivery trucks for a chip company, Freedo La or
Speaker 4: something like that. This is the crew. They come back
Speaker 4: out in the fall twenty one, same story, but they
Speaker 4: got the ladder. So they walk up to the first corner,
Speaker 4: they their ladder with the legs of the ladder public public, public, public,
Speaker 4: and right over that chain. And they just walk up
Speaker 4: and down right over the chain and proceed exactly the
Speaker 4: same as they did it in twenty same story, except
Speaker 4: this time Steve Grundian Company are even more angry and
Speaker 4: they're following them. In fact, the evidence that we collected
Speaker 4: showed that Steve and Company or other Elk Mountain employees
Speaker 4: were kind of chasing off the animals, driving their trucks
Speaker 4: and side by sides at animals and kind of scaring
Speaker 4: them off, following them around.
Speaker 1: Can I interject that absolutely, just for listener's sake. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the ranch manager, acting as a representative of the ranch,
Speaker 1: they are they have been under the assumption and have
Speaker 1: been enjoying exclusive access to this public land which is
Speaker 1: protected by this corner that they feel as a barrier
Speaker 1: to entry. So you have a landowner owns and pays
Speaker 1: taxes on surrounding ground, and because of his surrounding ground's
Speaker 1: proximity to these pieces of public land, and because of
Speaker 1: this corner that they view can't be crossed, they enjoy
Speaker 1: exclusive access to the point where if this ranch was
Speaker 1: transacting on the public market as it had in the past,
Speaker 1: it would be pointed out in the listing that not
Speaker 1: only are you buying x acres, you're getting a lot
Speaker 1: of bonus land that only you can use. So there's
Speaker 1: a lot. There's a lot to defend here from the
Speaker 1: position of the landowner is defending a side chunk of
Speaker 1: ground that they had assumed was for all intents and
Speaker 1: purposes theirs.
Speaker 3: But I think there's another right argument out there of
Speaker 3: whether or not you should give them the benefit of
Speaker 3: the doubt that they are operating under that assumption.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, okay, yeah, so all right, that's great, that's
Speaker 1: a very good point, and we should have chosen to
Speaker 1: work more carefully because it could be that they recognize
Speaker 1: that they don't quite but it would be nice if
Speaker 1: they did. And therefore, defending this vulnerability is of utmost
Speaker 1: importance because this whole house of cards could collapse.
Speaker 3: How we misture ourselves could have.
Speaker 1: Ramifications, meaning it could ben You know, we got a problem.
Speaker 1: Our assumption about our day facto ownership of this ground
Speaker 1: is tenuous. It's it's the laws rather arbitrary. We paid
Speaker 1: a good chunk of money thinking that it was right.
Speaker 1: But the more I look into this, this is a
Speaker 1: real vulnerability and something we ought to be paying attention to,
Speaker 1: and we should play our and we should handle our
Speaker 1: you know, play our cards in an effective fashion here
Speaker 1: because this is this is not good.
Speaker 2: I mean, they went so far as to say this
Speaker 2: would affect the value of the property.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's real important to get to that later.
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely. And it's funny. There was a
Speaker 4: company called the Chickering Company that had the property listing
Speaker 4: for Elk Mountain Ranch and we we've saved it elsewhere,
Speaker 4: but I just threw it up in my computer.
Speaker 2: See if I could pull up the listing, and they've
Speaker 2: taken that listing down, so that listing's gone, which is fun.
Speaker 1: But the listing pointed out yes, yeah, so the purchaser,
Speaker 1: if the purchaser, say, say an individual such as yourself,
Speaker 1: not schooled in these issues, a purchaser might have looked
Speaker 1: and been like sweet, yeah, without really having a deep
Speaker 1: history in this whole argument.
Speaker 6: And in their mind they paid for that, yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 6: so they in their mind they have a property right yeah.
Speaker 4: And and in fact, that's that's what came out later
Speaker 4: in the case, when we were deposing doctor Fred Ashman,
Speaker 4: who's the owner of the holding company that owns the
Speaker 4: property itself, he said when he purchased the property, he
Speaker 4: was under the impression that nobody could corner cross, and
Speaker 4: so he didn't finish the sentence with and so I
Speaker 4: had exclusive access to everything. But obviously that's the implication.
Speaker 4: If if no one can corner cross, which is the
Speaker 4: only way on foot you could access that land, then
Speaker 4: there is no foot travel access at all on Elk Mountain, period,
Speaker 4: which is checkerboarded to wazoo. So yeah, no, that's one
Speaker 4: hundred percent, that's and that is it. I mean, we
Speaker 4: always called it the first corner. Section fourteen and twenty
Speaker 4: four is the first corner. It is the prime mover
Speaker 4: if that is unlocked. And that's the only place they
Speaker 4: put this t post chain no trespass signs because they
Speaker 4: I mean it tascit acknowledgment. If that's blocked, you don't
Speaker 4: need to block anything else. You can't cross there, you
Speaker 4: can't get to anywhere else, period. And there just so
Speaker 4: happens to be a public road that runs through section fourteen.
Speaker 4: So if you can drive on that public road, park
Speaker 4: your truck, walk off the public road right to that corner,
Speaker 4: and cross that corner. Then yeah, you've got the keys
Speaker 4: to the castle. You can go to all that public land.
Speaker 4: And that's what these guys did, both in twenty and
Speaker 4: twenty one, and then twenty one obviously just led to
Speaker 4: this because twenty one is when, after much cajoling, the
Speaker 4: Carbon County District Attorney's office gave instructions to the Carbon
Speaker 4: County Sheriff's office, you will go cite those four hunters
Speaker 4: for trespass.
Speaker 3: And how often does something like that happen that the
Speaker 3: DA district attorney has to call a law enforcement officer
Speaker 3: to tell them to issue a citation.
Speaker 1: Man, I got a friend who is a DA in
Speaker 1: a county different state, But yeah, neighboring state would love
Speaker 1: to ask them that question.
Speaker 2: Well, that law enforcement officer had already told them, I'm
Speaker 2: not I'm not going to cite.
Speaker 4: You, right. Yeah, So it's and this is I asked
Speaker 4: the question earlier about that agency you guys were talking
Speaker 4: about down in Colorado or Washington, and and and I
Speaker 4: think you know this is this is the interesting thing
Speaker 4: is that so in Wyoming game and Fish, they're the
Speaker 4: those individuals and officers can deal with anything under Title three,
Speaker 4: which has to do with game, fish hunting and all
Speaker 4: that which would be trespassed to hunt. That is, they
Speaker 4: have jurisdiction to issue that citation. But when it comes
Speaker 4: to regular ole criminal trespass that is not that's under
Speaker 4: Title six. It's a regular crime, and so game and
Speaker 4: fish can issue that citation. They can only issue the
Speaker 4: other one. So it would have to be the sheriff.
Speaker 4: But for whatever reason surrounding this corner crossing issue, unlike
Speaker 4: a speeding ticket or if you got a bag of
Speaker 4: meth in your pocket, when it comes to corner crossing,
Speaker 4: the sheriff doesn't just cite you and arrest here whatever.
Speaker 4: They got a write a report, send it to the
Speaker 4: district attorney, and the district attorney has to think on
Speaker 4: it and then give them the thumbs up or thumbs down.
Speaker 1: Got it.
Speaker 4: I don't know why that's the methodology, but that's apparently
Speaker 4: what they say they need to do in this instance.
Speaker 4: Very abnormal for sure, and so yeah that ultimately after
Speaker 4: they go hunting in twenty one.
Speaker 3: Sorry, I gotta pause right now, regular old game warden
Speaker 3: sitting there on a county road in plane view, which
Speaker 3: is a term where you learned yesterday from a game
Speaker 3: organ from game warden watches somebody who does not appear
Speaker 3: to be hunting get off of that same county road
Speaker 3: and walk through somebody's property that is posted with no
Speaker 3: trespassing signs. That officer of the law doesn't have to
Speaker 3: act on anything there because it's not within their realm
Speaker 3: of things they can act on.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So, but a sheriff, which witnesses the same thing has
Speaker 3: to write a report, go leave that scene, go to
Speaker 3: the district attorney, say hey, I just witnessed this. Let
Speaker 3: me know whenever you get around to what we should
Speaker 3: do about that thing that may or may not be trespassing.
Speaker 3: And that's how the law in Wyoming works.
Speaker 4: You know. I'll tell you that there's always the law
Speaker 4: on the law. There's the law that's on the paper,
Speaker 4: and then there's the law on the way it goes.
Speaker 4: And I'll tell you the way that it would go.
Speaker 4: If a game warden saw someone just trotting through someone's
Speaker 4: private field, they would probably stop them and do something,
Speaker 4: and I would imagine they would find a way to
Speaker 4: issue some citation. But again, just the way you know,
Speaker 4: things are selective. There's discretion in everything, and for whatever reason,
Speaker 4: when it comes to corner crossing, there is this selectivity
Speaker 4: that the game Warden's not gonna do anything. The sheriff's
Speaker 4: deputy is going to write a report and leave it
Speaker 4: to the d A.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean specific, it's got to be because there's
Speaker 2: no law that clearly states whether it's legal or illegal.
Speaker 4: Right, that's right, there.
Speaker 9: Is and that's that's like the biggest I want you
Speaker 9: to keep going and keep cranking along, but that's the
Speaker 9: biggest thing in my uh, in my view on this
Speaker 9: thing is like the lingering arbitrariness or not even arbitrary.
Speaker 1: The lingering question, like what you're talking about, has a
Speaker 1: stem from the fact of I don't know is the
Speaker 1: guy gonna is the is the is the DA gonna
Speaker 1: feel like doing this?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, And I'm not gonna him all these citations
Speaker 1: if he's going to be like, man, I'm not waiting
Speaker 1: into that.
Speaker 4: And I'll tell you from my conversations with county county
Speaker 4: attorneys across the state of Wyoming, it very very few
Speaker 4: have any interest whatsoever in citing anyone for corner crossing.
Speaker 4: In fact, i've had at least four or five and
Speaker 4: three counties and including one who used to work in
Speaker 4: carbon counties. Not there anymore. Tell me, under no circumstances,
Speaker 4: what I cite for or would I tell anyone to
Speaker 4: be cited for that, let alone prosecuted to trial.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because if they know, they're just opening themselves up
Speaker 2: to a very confusing, like potentially like case that just
Speaker 2: drags on and gets muddy like this one, or they lose, yeah,
Speaker 2: like this one.
Speaker 4: Right, And I do want to kind of move past
Speaker 4: the criminal case because that that's the saga, that's the
Speaker 4: the story. They went hunting again in twenty one. They
Speaker 4: used the latter to do their first corner cross and
Speaker 4: they found the other corners and they continued to cross,
Speaker 4: and ultimately they get cited for criminal trespass. But you
Speaker 4: got to understand that trespass comes in many flavors and
Speaker 4: criminal trespasses, but one I already referred to trespass to hunt.
Speaker 4: But the big one and the thing that's going to
Speaker 4: maybe change some things is this civil trespass lawsuit that
Speaker 4: was filed as kind of a tack on to the
Speaker 4: criminal case.
Speaker 1: It just real quick with the criminal case. Yeah, just
Speaker 1: the results.
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, well the results of the criminal case.
Speaker 4: So we took the thing to trial after much litigation beforehand,
Speaker 4: trying to knock that thing out and saying this is stupid,
Speaker 4: it's not a crime, it's legal, so forth and so on.
Speaker 4: But we didn't went on that, but we went to
Speaker 4: a jury trial. Jerry returned a verdict in just a
Speaker 4: little under two hours, not guilty.
Speaker 1: How hard was jury selection? Did you throw out landowners?
Speaker 4: We did not throw out landowners. We did throw out
Speaker 4: a couple of people who had some business connections to
Speaker 4: this landowner because they candidly were like, well, we just
Speaker 4: don't really know how that's gonna work for us.
Speaker 3: If there were happened to be a fence builder. No, no,
Speaker 3: so we we It was jury selection hard. It It
Speaker 3: actually was a little easier than I thought. There did
Speaker 3: break out some debate among the potential jurors over corner
Speaker 3: crossing and what what we should be doing when.
Speaker 4: You're when you're out in the world traveling, and and
Speaker 4: what's trespassed what's not trespass, which is very interesting. Just
Speaker 4: was there hunters on the jury? I think yes, there
Speaker 4: was at the four person Foreman was a hunter. Yeah. Uh,
Speaker 4: And if I remember correctly, the four person during jury selection,
Speaker 4: he told this story that was something like, well, I
Speaker 4: was out hunting once and I was right, I was
Speaker 4: getting near the property line, and I but I thought
Speaker 4: to myself, you know, I'm gonna be really careful. I
Speaker 4: don't I don't want to get too close to the
Speaker 4: property line. So I'm going to stay a good hundred
Speaker 4: yards from the property line. I want to even get
Speaker 4: near it. And my thought process was, Oh, this guy,
Speaker 4: he might actually get it, like he understands. But I
Speaker 4: think the prosecution thought, oh, this guy really is going
Speaker 4: to be a stickler, and so I thought they were
Speaker 4: going to knock him out for sure. And then when
Speaker 4: we kept going back and forth knocking Jerors out and
Speaker 4: he kept sticking along, I just think, just let him stay,
Speaker 4: and sure enough he's our four person.
Speaker 6: Yeah, because you could read that as like he's overly
Speaker 6: deferential to private property rights, or like he knows that
Speaker 6: this is a mess and he wants to cover his own.
Speaker 4: Ass right right, yeah, yeah, or where he appreciates the
Speaker 4: absurdity of it, or at least the results that would
Speaker 4: come from, if that's really what trespass is.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So he stuck around and we got a not guilties
Speaker 4: on for all four guys on two different theories of trespass.
Speaker 4: Deliberation was all long, just under two hours, which was great.
Speaker 4: Zach Smith actually knocked over his water pitcher onto John
Speaker 4: Slowinski during the verdict reading, which was great. He stood
Speaker 4: up and there was a water pitcher in front of him,
Speaker 4: knocked it and flipped it right into John.
Speaker 1: So do you know, do you know? Do you have
Speaker 1: any insight into the deliberation room.
Speaker 4: Nope, Jerry Jurors would not talk to anybody, wouldn't talk
Speaker 4: to reporters, wouldn't talk to us. So no, don't know,
Speaker 4: don't know what went on there. And then interestingly, during
Speaker 4: jury's selection, three of the three guys from twenty twenty
Speaker 4: were issued citations by the sheriff's deputy for the twenty
Speaker 4: twenty hunt, like we know.
Speaker 5: Where those guys are.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was. It was really bizarre because there were
Speaker 4: jurors in the room when the sheriff handed them citations
Speaker 4: up right at the beginning of trial. I don't remember
Speaker 4: what for the twenty twenty hunt, same thing hunt. Yeah,
Speaker 4: he served them with citations for during jury selection.
Speaker 1: But then did that trespass case get rolled into the
Speaker 1: same trespass case.
Speaker 4: No, no, no, So it was technically it was going
Speaker 4: to go on its own separate little track. But a
Speaker 4: few days after the verdict, the state elected to dismiss
Speaker 4: those charges.
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, I didn't know that.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so we almost had to do it all over again.
Speaker 1: So could I just record, yeah, play for the.
Speaker 4: Next Yeah, I mean so thankfully that went away. What
Speaker 4: do you think the their reasoning there was for their goal?
Speaker 4: I think maybe they were thinking, if they got convictions
Speaker 4: at trial, we'd have to take a plea on that
Speaker 4: new set of charges or something like that. I honestly
Speaker 4: don't know why they wouldn't just charge it or do
Speaker 4: it all at the same time. We in fact had
Speaker 4: said that early on in the case, was like, well,
Speaker 4: if you're you know, either either that information's coming in
Speaker 4: because we're dealing with it now, or it's not. They
Speaker 4: can't talk about it at all because it's not part
Speaker 4: of this case. It's not relevant. It's kind of a
Speaker 4: weird angle that took place, but it got sorted. But yeah,
Speaker 4: the more and the criminal case thankfully kind of ended
Speaker 4: that way, ended with a whimper. But In the meantime,
Speaker 4: in February of the same year, three months before trial
Speaker 4: for the criminal trial, we got an email. All the
Speaker 4: criminal defense attorneys got an email from this other attorney
Speaker 4: who I had not known before, said, Hey, I represent
Speaker 4: the ranch. We're suing your guys for trespass. You guys
Speaker 4: gonna accept service? Or do I have to go serve
Speaker 4: them with papers? Really it's a fun email to receive.
Speaker 3: For sure, I'd be like, where are you based?
Speaker 4: Yeah, So it was an interesting move. I was wondering
Speaker 4: if that was going to happen, and then it did,
Speaker 4: and so that kicked off this civil lawsuit.
Speaker 2: Did that letters like state the nature of their civil
Speaker 2: suit or it just said we're starting a civil suit against.
Speaker 4: These It actually attached the complaint, which is the case
Speaker 4: initiating document for the civil suit. So so we saw
Speaker 4: what the claim was, and so we accepted service.
Speaker 1: And ultimately you didn't know the dollar figure at that time.
Speaker 4: No, Nope, didn't did not know. Did not know. And
Speaker 4: that's an interesting.
Speaker 1: Curious about the dollar figure.
Speaker 4: Well, I was a little bit. I thought it was
Speaker 4: silly because at least in Wyoming and in many states,
Speaker 4: you know, trespass can ordinarily only get you whatever damage
Speaker 4: was caused, or a nominal amount of damages, you know,
Speaker 4: if if you trespass. You know the example I use
Speaker 4: because something that rings true to me. He used to
Speaker 4: play a lot of whiffleball in my parents' backyard when
Speaker 4: I was a kid. And you'd hit the ball of
Speaker 4: the fence. Yeah yeah, and uh, you hop the fence,
Speaker 4: go get the whiffleball, and you're in your neighbor's yard
Speaker 4: for five seconds, and you grab the ball, you go back. Well,
Speaker 4: is that trespass technically, Yeah, he didn't ask for permission.
Speaker 4: You're on their property. That's trespass. Is it twenty five
Speaker 4: percent of the value of their house worth of trespass?
Speaker 2: I don't think so. So the court if they were
Speaker 2: to sue that little kid.
Speaker 3: If that were true, what is happening in Steve's neighborhood.
Speaker 3: I mean, there'd be rich, yeah or poor, depending I'd
Speaker 3: be richie.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there'd be a lot of cross counter suits. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of counter suits among the various families with kids.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, right, right, So so I just in that instance,
Speaker 2: you could get if you really want to sue, you
Speaker 2: get nominal damages, which is it's always some ten dollars,
Speaker 2: twenty dollars, fifty dollars whatever.
Speaker 4: That's the way I looked at it. But I cared
Speaker 4: about the value because I wanted to take the case
Speaker 4: to federal court because they had followed their case in
Speaker 4: state cour and I was really keen on, no, if
Speaker 4: we're going to do this, let's get an answer and
Speaker 4: let's get a real answer. So I wanted to go
Speaker 4: to federal court. So I told the guys, look, this
Speaker 4: is my theory, this is the way I want I
Speaker 4: think we should do this. And so it all kind
Speaker 4: of shook out that the guys were like, all right,
Speaker 4: we're gonna use you do the civil case for us,
Speaker 4: like we all four because I can do all four
Speaker 4: of them in a civil case. So they were like, yeah,
Speaker 4: you do the civil case. And so the very first
Speaker 4: thing we did was we removed that's the word for it.
Speaker 4: We removed the case from state court to federal court.
Speaker 4: And the reason the dollar figure mattered is because there
Speaker 4: were two grounds that we raised to try to get
Speaker 4: that thing into federal court because federal courts have limited jurisdiction.
Speaker 4: And the one ground we said that we were a
Speaker 4: little more confident on was we're citizens of different states.
Speaker 4: This isn't it's a Wyoming company and we are Missouri residents. Well,
Speaker 4: technically it's got North Carolina City and ship that company.
Speaker 4: Because it's an LLC, it doesn't matter, boring, but it's
Speaker 4: a different state. But we also need to satisfy the
Speaker 4: amount in controversy needs to be more than seventy five
Speaker 4: thousand dollars. We need to affirmatively show that. So we
Speaker 4: put in our notice, look this thing, and we cited
Speaker 4: the property listing this property is worth all this money.
Speaker 4: And they're claiming, and they claimed and their complaint that
Speaker 4: we clouded the title to their property by corner crossing.
Speaker 4: So we argued, look, if they're saying that we're affecting
Speaker 4: the marketability of this sixteen point twenty two million or
Speaker 4: whatever it was, property, then certainly it's that much is
Speaker 4: at issue, so take our case. And interesting, but you
Speaker 4: guys came up with the number at first at first,
Speaker 4: and interest is it was a challenge, Yeah, because we
Speaker 4: want to take to federal court. We said, look, their
Speaker 4: complaining that we're messing with the ability to sell this property.
Speaker 4: You got to take our case. The other angle was
Speaker 4: we said, there's a federal question here. The federal question
Speaker 4: is what Unlawful Enclosures Act? How does that apply? There's
Speaker 4: all this federal land at issue. Access is a hugely
Speaker 4: important public interest. This court needs to answer that. We
Speaker 4: need an answer. Interestingly, they of course asked for the
Speaker 4: case to go back to state court, and they said
Speaker 4: that's because they ain't that much at issue. They haven't
Speaker 4: shown that there's that much at issue. They actually said
Speaker 4: that way back when they said, look, they haven't shown
Speaker 4: the amountain controversy. We didn't say the amountain controversy was
Speaker 4: that much. You know, there's no federal questions here, just
Speaker 4: a regular old trespassed lawsuit. Send us back to state court.
Speaker 4: They said that, and they lost on that, and their
Speaker 4: motion to send it back was denied. Kept the case
Speaker 4: state in federal court, which was huge, And then we
Speaker 4: tried to it's strange little judo here. Then we tried
Speaker 4: to dismiss their case and say they don't have one
Speaker 4: so it's just a lot of yeah.
Speaker 2: And still there hadn't been a dollar amount floated, not yet,
Speaker 2: not yet, because that that would come later. We lost
Speaker 2: that motion of dismiss but the judge said something really
Speaker 2: interesting in that order. He said, Look, I don't think
Speaker 2: I can dismiss this case yet, but I do think
Speaker 2: you can raise a defense to a corner crossing trespass
Speaker 2: using the Unlawful Enclosures Act. I do think that you
Speaker 2: have the ability to defend yourself if someone sues you
Speaker 2: or claims that you've committed a trespass because you corner
Speaker 2: crossed by saying there's a federal law that protects me,
Speaker 2: just like Brad and company had said way back when
Speaker 2: to that sheriff's deputy.
Speaker 1: Is that common for a judge to throw out like a.
Speaker 4: Tip, Well, we had put that in our motion. We
Speaker 4: said that's why he should dismiss it. And there was
Speaker 4: this question of whether we could even raise that deface.
Speaker 1: Oh I can't. I'm not going to dismiss it. But
Speaker 1: that's a that's an arguable point.
Speaker 6: Yes, yeah, he said, this isn't enough to throw it out,
Speaker 6: but this is something that is worth considering.
Speaker 2: Exactly, That's exactly what he said. He said that that's
Speaker 2: a real thing to consider.
Speaker 3: That give you some kind of like warm and fuzzies inside.
Speaker 4: Absolutely. I mean, you know, I'll lose the battle, but
Speaker 4: win the war. All day long. So that's okay, and
Speaker 4: it set me back, but it still give me the path.
Speaker 4: So no, it was that was a good sign for sure.
Speaker 4: But then after we lost that motion, that's what triggers
Speaker 4: kind of okay, we got to start exchanging information and
Speaker 4: discovery and very first disclosure we got. I remember I was.
Speaker 4: I think I was driving back. I was in my
Speaker 4: car now with the turtle now now just me. Uh,
Speaker 4: maybe I was driving back from like a weird little
Speaker 4: assault trial I had in Rawlins or something. I remember.
Speaker 1: I sounds like a country song.
Speaker 2: You've driven through Rollins, right, Yeah, weird.
Speaker 4: I'm pretty sure it was. It was this guy. He
Speaker 4: was a truck driver and he got jumped by four
Speaker 4: other truck drivers because he was trying to get up
Speaker 4: to the fuel pump and they were just sitting there
Speaker 4: playing on their phone or something, so it was honking
Speaker 4: his horn. Oh and and he didn't know that they
Speaker 4: had like four people in the cab of their truck.
Speaker 4: He just thought it was just the driver, and they
Speaker 4: popped out and kicked his ass, and but he got
Speaker 4: side too, and so he wanted to try the case
Speaker 4: because he's like, no, I'm the victim, So Yeah, I
Speaker 4: remember that. Yeah, we went, we had a trial, we
Speaker 4: won that trip. Yeah. And then as I was driving
Speaker 4: back and I got this ping on my phone and
Speaker 4: it was the initial disclosures document from the ranch. And
Speaker 4: that's the first time they've got to say what they
Speaker 4: think their damages are and.
Speaker 1: Trying to read that while you drive, and yeah, take
Speaker 1: a peek.
Speaker 4: Well, I didn't read all their crazy attachments, but I
Speaker 4: did look for a number. I was just trying to
Speaker 4: find a number, is what I cared about. And that's
Speaker 4: when I saw, for the very first time they had this.
Speaker 4: It starts off simple ten dollars for damages, and then
Speaker 4: it starts then it gets weird three point one million
Speaker 4: to seven point seventy five million for actual damages arising
Speaker 4: from defendant's conduct colon ten percent to twenty five percent
Speaker 4: diminution of value of the real property parentheses, subject to revision.
Speaker 4: And I I just kind of I couldn't I couldn't
Speaker 4: quite understand exactly. I think I liked it on one hand,
Speaker 4: because they conceded the amount in controversy finally, so now
Speaker 4: I knew I was in the right court. But then
Speaker 4: on the other hand, I was like, they really think
Speaker 4: that they're gonna show show this because because the way
Speaker 4: I always thought about it was this, if they're right
Speaker 4: and we had no right to corner cross, then there's
Speaker 4: no loss of value to their property there, you know,
Speaker 4: conception of what they have stays exactly the same. But
Speaker 4: if they're wrong and they can't stop people from corner crossing, well,
Speaker 4: then they don't have any way. If there's some little
Speaker 4: premium that their property enjoys because no one can corner cross,
Speaker 4: well that premium is false, had never existed.
Speaker 6: It's like if you bought a place thinking that there's
Speaker 6: a whole bunch of gold on it, and then the gold's.
Speaker 4: Not actually there.
Speaker 6: You're not about my house tale as old as time. Yeah,
Speaker 6: So they're like, like the value is the value is.
Speaker 1: Always imaginary essentially right. I always felt maybe you can
Speaker 1: get to this in your narrative. I always felt that
Speaker 1: this gentleman's uh the landowners gripe should have been with
Speaker 1: some people in the real estate industry, you know, or
Speaker 1: his attorney who did the deal. Why is he not
Speaker 1: mad at him?
Speaker 4: Maybe because the statute of limitations is run.
Speaker 1: Uh, but you know what I mean, Like, if I
Speaker 1: bought a thing on an assumption and I was led
Speaker 1: by people. I'm paying commissions to fees to to vet
Speaker 1: right and due diligence on a on a purchase, and
Speaker 1: then it winds up being that some contractor says, hey,
Speaker 1: I don't know if you realize everything inside this place
Speaker 1: is black mold, right. Do I go, you know what,
Speaker 1: mister contractor, you owe me money for this house? Or
Speaker 1: would I go, Man, I need to go talk to
Speaker 1: my building inspector who said everything's cool. Yeah, yeah, But
Speaker 1: it just felt like so miss It felt so misassigned.
Speaker 1: So the blame, I think.
Speaker 4: That that's that's absolutely right. It's definitely missed as signed blame.
Speaker 4: But I think it was just it was in his mind.
Speaker 4: And I'm just reading Tea Leaves that this is the
Speaker 4: enforcement mechanism of the right he thought he had. Is
Speaker 4: that he when he bought the property, he was like, hey, look,
Speaker 4: people are going to try it, I guess, but they can't.
Speaker 4: And I'm going to win this. I'm gonna stamp it
Speaker 4: out and I'm gonna throw out these numbers because I
Speaker 4: want to show how serious I am about how I
Speaker 4: value this, this privilege that I believe I enjoy this
Speaker 4: property interest that I believe I have, and so I
Speaker 4: think it was kind of a bark, you know, not
Speaker 4: a lot of bite, a lot of bark. And I
Speaker 4: think that there was a realization of that because of
Speaker 4: the public attention on the case that if we can
Speaker 4: get out into the atmosphere, this is really what you're
Speaker 4: facing and believing. Not a fun conversation to call a
Speaker 4: fence builder, his employee, a truck repair guy, and a
Speaker 4: band director and say they think the damages are, you know,
Speaker 4: getting close to ten million dollars.
Speaker 3: What's in your accounts right now?
Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, not not a fun conversation at all.
Speaker 1: But I'm just trying to So I'm just trying to
Speaker 1: get the law. I don't want to stop you because
Speaker 1: you're doing a great job. We'll explain a whole thing,
Speaker 1: just trying to. I've never been able to grapple with
Speaker 1: the logic. It's it's more of.
Speaker 6: An attempt to keep the house of cards, to make
Speaker 6: the house of cards look like it's still standing essentially.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I mean we were talking earlier about
Speaker 4: security theater and how like you know TSA for example,
Speaker 4: they wear their uniforms and they have their scanners and
Speaker 4: they do all their stuff, and they look really serious
Speaker 4: and they're kind of, you know, stern folks, because the
Speaker 4: visual of security is more important than the reality, like
Speaker 4: can they actually stop stuff? We know they don't stop stuff.
Speaker 4: We know they're not good at it. But for most people,
Speaker 4: just the apparatus, the visual is enough to make it secure.
Speaker 4: You're not going to try it, you're not going to
Speaker 4: test it. And I think that was the concept behind.
Speaker 1: Their loss of pocket knife. To those guys, you look
Speaker 1: me in the eye, Well, I know they haven't found
Speaker 1: your pocket knife.
Speaker 4: I've never bought a pocket knife, but.
Speaker 1: Everyone at this table can a test to their effectiveness
Speaker 1: a pocket knife detection.
Speaker 4: I straight shotgun shells. Well, I think their stats when
Speaker 4: they do their quality control are not very good. But
Speaker 4: with stuff that can actually get through. Yeah, yeah, but
Speaker 4: but yeah.
Speaker 1: I'm not joking. We've all lost knives of those people,
Speaker 1: but go on.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: But but so I think that the concept was if
Speaker 4: I throw out this is how serious it is. It's
Speaker 4: ten million, seven point seven five million dollars worth of damages,
Speaker 4: do not even think about it. That was the That
Speaker 4: was the message to everybody.
Speaker 1: It's peacocky, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Don't exactly, but it like, did they ever acknowledge that
Speaker 2: in like suing for the that amount of damages to
Speaker 2: the property, they're also admitting that the damage was done
Speaker 2: because corner crossing is legal.
Speaker 1: No, but there's no that that's the damage was done because.
Speaker 6: He did it right, and he owes me yeah, because
Speaker 6: corner crossing.
Speaker 2: Is legal, Like it's well, yeah, it is strange, am
Speaker 2: I just reading No? No, no, you're reading it exactly right.
Speaker 2: And I think there was two angles of this. When
Speaker 2: they're trying to be legitimate.
Speaker 4: Their claim was, well, these four guys and everybody who
Speaker 4: had been helping them with funding and BHA, everybody else
Speaker 4: that's involved in this issue of recognizing the legality of
Speaker 4: corner crossing, they're in some conspiracy to just have everybody
Speaker 4: run amook on the ranch and commit just serial after
Speaker 4: cereal trespass. So I think that was the concept is like, well,
Speaker 4: these guys are the spear, their tip of the spear
Speaker 4: that's going to puncture my property rights. So that's why
Speaker 4: I'm going to go after them. But I think the reality, if.
Speaker 1: You know, that's good, yeah, yeah, yeah, satisfies Yeah.
Speaker 3: But I also speaks back to the flaw in their
Speaker 3: initial strategy right, which we've discussed. It's like, if that
Speaker 3: is what you wanted to circumvent, you don't call the sheriff,
Speaker 3: you don't call the DA. You have a person to
Speaker 3: person conversation with this group, and you figure out a
Speaker 3: way to let them continue on what they're legally doing
Speaker 3: in a way that is completely inconspicuous to every other
Speaker 3: group of hunters out there that could ever go down
Speaker 3: that county road.
Speaker 1: It'd be better if you're parked up by the house and.
Speaker 2: Act why don't you park up at the ranch house
Speaker 2: and would have liked to keep this spot a secret
Speaker 2: as well?
Speaker 5: I mean that they wouldn't.
Speaker 1: That's the real victim here. These guys are spots alone.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it would be a pumpkin patch up there.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: What in a civil trial, what is the damage amount
Speaker 3: assigned to losing a good hunting spot?
Speaker 4: Ten million?
Speaker 1: Because you blew this whole thing up now it looks
Speaker 1: like that, Like you know, I was trying to make
Speaker 1: this analogy for you know that famous photo of people
Speaker 1: trying to get to the Klondike gold Field and you're
Speaker 1: climbing up that pass out of Whittier. That's what that
Speaker 1: ladder looks like right now going into this golden something
Speaker 1: like that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no. I said that that whole
Speaker 4: question was just straight, and it got stranger still because
Speaker 4: as the case progressed, they got an expert who was
Speaker 4: gonna who opined about this diminution and value of corner
Speaker 4: crossing is legal, and that was how he based the
Speaker 4: opinion too. It wasn't like, oh, my opinion is based
Speaker 4: on what the footfalls of these four hunters in twenty
Speaker 4: and twenty twenty one caused this damage. His opinion was, well,
Speaker 4: if a court says it's legal, this is what's going
Speaker 4: to happen to the resale value if you ranch. And
Speaker 4: he even went higher. He said that the diminution of
Speaker 4: value could be as high as like thirty percent, just
Speaker 4: because that's he knows selling ranches, and this is how
Speaker 4: hard it would be. So then so that I guess
Speaker 4: the damn just went up a little bit. And then
Speaker 4: we got to kind of the eve of the summary
Speaker 4: judgment hearing and we get this filing from them that says, look,
Speaker 4: if you rule in our and you say corner crossing
Speaker 4: is illegal or that these guys committed a trespass and
Speaker 4: the way that they did their corner crossing, Uh, will
Speaker 4: drop our damages, we won't ask for any money, and
Speaker 4: they can keep on. And this went to the court. Yeah,
Speaker 4: they filed this with the court. They filed that with
Speaker 4: the court and they said, I, if you if you
Speaker 4: ruin our favor, we're not asking for any money, we
Speaker 4: won't ask for anything. But they waited until right before.
Speaker 1: Wouldn't that point be not Why would the court be
Speaker 1: able to consider that because they're not the court's not negotiating.
Speaker 4: I don't know if it was too if it was
Speaker 4: an active diplomacy and it was like bringing the beer
Speaker 4: to the guys at the fish clean the Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 4: it was like, look, don't don't worry if if you're
Speaker 4: if you have heartburn about ruling in my favor because
Speaker 4: I'm going to crush these people with the damages. Don't worry.
Speaker 4: I'm not going to do that.
Speaker 1: Got it? And so what was that presented to the
Speaker 1: alleged trespassers as a deal or did it was it
Speaker 1: just sitting in the court.
Speaker 4: No, it was just filed with the court. It was
Speaker 4: just it was just filed with the court saying, look,
Speaker 4: if you if you rule in our favor, were we're
Speaker 4: going to drop this or we're not going to even
Speaker 4: go for all.
Speaker 1: But then are your clients notified of this of this question?
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh yeah, no, yeah, they would see that. But
Speaker 4: it wasn't It wasn't like an offer of settlement. It
Speaker 4: wasn't like, hey, let's settle this thing. It was just
Speaker 4: to the judge. So it kind of was what it was,
Speaker 4: and the judge says, well, ultimately the judge ruled in
Speaker 4: our favor. So the judge never addressed that issue at all.
Speaker 4: Oh okay, yeah, yeah, it was just kind of sitting
Speaker 4: out there.
Speaker 1: It was just an interesting he never he never had
Speaker 1: to wait, he's never forced to weigh in.
Speaker 4: On now, I did not have to weigh in on that.
Speaker 4: That that that side of it. Yeah. So we go
Speaker 4: through that whole discovery phase, collecting evidence and whatnot through
Speaker 4: and in March of twenty three, I think, maybe no
Speaker 4: April fifteenth of twenty three, and then we all filed
Speaker 4: competing motions saying you don't need to have a trial
Speaker 4: in this case. We win for this reason, and they
Speaker 4: filed their corresponding motion, and then we had a summary
Speaker 4: judgment hearing on those motions on May tenth of twenty
Speaker 4: three and made our arguments directly to Jude Scavdal and
Speaker 4: kind of he questioned us, peppered us. He's a very
Speaker 4: prepared judge, and he was ready, and he had lots
Speaker 4: of questions for everybody, and then we waited, and then
Speaker 4: it was kind of okay.
Speaker 1: Well, give me a sense of what would be a question.
Speaker 4: Well, so just like I'm.
Speaker 1: Just curious, how particular are his questions? Oh?
Speaker 4: Pretty, pretty particular. For example, I think I spoke for
Speaker 4: maybe twenty thirty seven I've got the transcript somewhere, but
Speaker 4: I spoke for maybe twenty thirty seconds, and he interrupted
Speaker 4: me with a question of something like, well, how is
Speaker 4: this not they have this bundle of sticks is the
Speaker 4: way lawyers like to talk about property. And they have
Speaker 4: a right to exclude people from their property, and that
Speaker 4: includes the super adjacent airspace above their property. So when
Speaker 4: they crossed through that corner, I mean, are they they
Speaker 4: are crossing through airspace that's technically above their property, So
Speaker 4: why doesn't that affect their right to exclude I mean
Speaker 4: it was like that level of granularity, and so so yeah,
Speaker 4: you'd get those questions. He asked about the damage this
Speaker 4: thing too. He kind of had the similar question that
Speaker 4: we've all been wrestling around with with, like, well, damned
Speaker 4: if you do, damned if you don't, how do I
Speaker 4: how do I reconcile that this premium that they're placing
Speaker 4: on their property. So, yeah, it was, it was detailed.
Speaker 4: He was ready, and then we waited. So we were
Speaker 4: kind of just getting ready for trial because you got
Speaker 4: to prepare in case the judge isn't going to rule.
Speaker 1: You got to waited.
Speaker 4: How long we waited, Oh shoot, I think it was
Speaker 4: a couple of weeks. I think his decision came out
Speaker 4: on May twenty third, if I'm not mistaken, And so
Speaker 4: we waited two weeks just about to get a ruling.
Speaker 4: And when he issued that for that order, that kind
Speaker 4: of took a lot of stuff off the table and
Speaker 4: clarified quite a bit. This ambiguity about corner crossing, I
Speaker 4: think was taken away. I mean, everything that we've always
Speaker 4: thought about, just the absurdity of it, the practicality of it.
Speaker 1: That order summarizes ruling.
Speaker 4: The public is entitled to a right of reasonable access
Speaker 4: across the corner from public to public and the checkerboard,
Speaker 4: and when they do that. They cannot touch the private land,
Speaker 4: they cannot damage the private land and the private land
Speaker 4: or can't stop them.
Speaker 1: And what about the he asked about it.
Speaker 3: So what was his take on the air Yeah, so
Speaker 3: he didn't go in that very specific direction of what
Speaker 3: his airspace mean and how do we divvy it up?
Speaker 1: How can he to get to Tom mcguain can't ignore it,
Speaker 1: I mean what about the air.
Speaker 4: Yeah, what he hung his hat on was precedent. He
Speaker 4: hung his hat on a couple of cases, in particular
Speaker 4: this really old case called Mackay. It was sheep herder
Speaker 4: was trailing his sheep through the checkerboard and landowner and
Speaker 4: similar case actually because he was prosecuted criminally and suited
Speaker 4: civilly and the court said it's not it's not civil
Speaker 4: trespass to eat the sheep half and the sheep herder
Speaker 4: have to be able to access those public lands and
Speaker 4: it's not trespass for them to access them in a.
Speaker 1: Reason sheep ladder, Yeah, no, I'd be way to fall
Speaker 1: asleep at night picture sheep going over that ladder.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So so he hung his hat on that and that
Speaker 4: that case. But as far as the airspace question, I
Speaker 4: guarantee it's coming back. It's going to come back on
Speaker 4: this appeal that we have going on right now, and
Speaker 4: we're going to have to we're going to have to
Speaker 4: pin it down or at least respond to it. But
Speaker 4: the way we responded to it last time was, look, uh,
Speaker 4: airspace trespass, which is kind of this it's a weird
Speaker 4: question because it hasn't really affect us too much. We've
Speaker 4: already had cases to say airplanes are not trespassing on
Speaker 4: private property when they're flying overhead. But there was kind
Speaker 4: of this threshold of you know, some undetermined amount of
Speaker 4: space above the land that a private land or has
Speaker 4: the right to control. But the trespass cases have always
Speaker 4: said it's not an actual trespass if you use that
Speaker 4: airspace or go through that airspace unless it causes damage
Speaker 4: or interferes with the use of the airspace. And that
Speaker 4: was what we hung our hat on, is to say, look,
Speaker 4: if they're gonna go with an airspace trespass whatever, well,
Speaker 4: they weren't using the wide open range land airspace or
Speaker 4: or the land itself at all other than their teposts,
Speaker 4: and we weren't interfering with that non use of that land,
Speaker 4: so it's not an actionable trespass. That's that was our
Speaker 4: response then, and it didn't really become super crucial at
Speaker 4: that in skyt Doll's ruling, But it's something we'll have
Speaker 4: to address when we get to the appeal for sure.
Speaker 1: What's the appeal look like.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so right now we don't know quite yet. We
Speaker 4: just know that the case is on appeal. All the way,
Speaker 4: there was this whole motion to stay scaped All's ruling
Speaker 4: and that got denied. Basically the landowner said, look, if
Speaker 4: you don't stay this ruling, come hunting season in the fall,
Speaker 4: everyone's going to be running ramping over my land. I
Speaker 4: actually don't know what the current status so that is.
Speaker 4: I don't know people have been corner crossing or not
Speaker 4: because have.
Speaker 1: You been out there?
Speaker 4: Have you driven out to the ven? I've driven through,
Speaker 4: but I've never been out to the corner. I've never been.
Speaker 4: I want to go I do. I want to go
Speaker 4: right to that corner. I really really.
Speaker 6: Don't feel like when this is all settled, the band
Speaker 6: director should bring his marching band out.
Speaker 1: Zero appetite. I would have zero appetite to hop that
Speaker 1: corner man.
Speaker 5: Just like but.
Speaker 3: That's a really interesting point because there's nothing it's already
Speaker 3: been discovered, right, So it's not like a sneaky hunting
Speaker 3: spot anymore. So like if you're if your point of
Speaker 3: view is purely just hunting, it's not going to be
Speaker 3: to this very known place now, right. But I just
Speaker 3: made a really interesting observation, and Ryan and I were
Speaker 3: talking about it because I drove out to Buffalo, Wyoming.
Speaker 3: T RCP and b h A did listening sessions where
Speaker 3: they tried to invite in stakeholders to discuss corner crossing
Speaker 3: and just kind of get a temperature of everybody's feelings.
Speaker 3: And uh, Maggie Hudlow went to a couple for us too,
Speaker 3: and kind of in the hopes that something really dramatic
Speaker 3: would happen really that we could, you know, put on
Speaker 3: the website and talk about. And the most impactful part
Speaker 3: of that to me was like everyone in that room
Speaker 3: was very interested in access to public land. Nobody in
Speaker 3: that room was all that wrapped up in corner crossing.
Speaker 3: The takeaway that I.
Speaker 1: Had not wrapped up in that specific issue.
Speaker 3: Not wrapped up in that specific issue. The takeaway that
Speaker 3: I had is this is something that we do. This
Speaker 3: is something that we have done, and this is something
Speaker 3: that we will continue to do. And it's just not
Speaker 3: it's not an issue. It's not something that we talk about,
Speaker 3: right because it's it is a means of access currently
Speaker 3: it has been a means of access. And and even
Speaker 3: the landowners present, they were much more concerned about, well,
Speaker 3: these places that it you know, it's like a thoroughfare
Speaker 3: where it's a bigger chunk and people park there. What
Speaker 3: about the parking and what about the you know, stuff like.
Speaker 1: A bunch of proxy arguments.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, My interest in it, my interest in the subject,
Speaker 1: which is deep, has mostly always stemmed from how could
Speaker 1: something like this be unclear? Like of something of like
Speaker 1: such huge ramification and such squabbling and loss, Like how
Speaker 1: could I'm sure, because you work in the law, you
Speaker 1: probably were of a lot of things that are unclear.
Speaker 1: But I'm like, how in the world is this not
Speaker 1: even the world is this unclear?
Speaker 2: Even going all the way back to when they came
Speaker 2: up with this checkerboard system, they weren't like.
Speaker 1: Huh, someone someone that the railroad back in eighteen ninety year,
Speaker 1: what aver the hell wouldn't have been?
Speaker 8: You know what?
Speaker 1: I keep thinking about since they gave us every other section.
Speaker 1: But it's like criss cross someday.
Speaker 3: But that that is the genesis of the Unlawful Enclosures Act,
Speaker 3: was to address uh people, landowners and to tease trying
Speaker 3: to strategically purchase and and block off other chunks.
Speaker 2: And it would be it would be fine if it
Speaker 2: was just that federal thing deciding it. But then you
Speaker 2: have states form and the states do things differently.
Speaker 3: And I'm sure in a lot of cases too, you know,
Speaker 3: like you grow up in counties where you're like, you
Speaker 3: do not mess with with that landowner over there, like
Speaker 3: everybody knows that.
Speaker 1: I guess my take on it. I guess the point
Speaker 1: I'm trying to make about it. If this had just
Speaker 1: been to settled again and again overtime, right, and it
Speaker 1: had gone to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court's
Speaker 1: like no corner crossing, I don't think I would. I
Speaker 1: don't think I would have ever been in a situation
Speaker 1: of sitting there looking about how to overturn that Supreme
Speaker 1: Court decision right, just the way there are people always
Speaker 1: plotting how to like overturn Supreme Court decisions. I just
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been in that pot of people. I'd like, Oh,
Speaker 1: it's just you know, it's just been decided. But in
Speaker 1: learning that it hasn't been decided, it's unclear. And I've
Speaker 1: put this, I've expressed this in interviews. It's like, if
Speaker 1: they are going to argue about this, I just really
Speaker 1: want the access side to have a really robust, clearly
Speaker 1: articulated argument, because I know that I'm not worried about
Speaker 1: that argument coming from the other side. It'll be funded,
Speaker 1: it'll be articulated very clearly, And it's like, if there's
Speaker 1: arguing yet to be done, I'm interested in the argument.
Speaker 1: But I would never have caught on to, like, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. I would never caught on to
Speaker 1: trying to.
Speaker 6: Upset something that had been If it was just always
Speaker 6: a settled thing and you wanted to overturn.
Speaker 1: It, Yeah, it won't be like me and being mad
Speaker 1: about four hundred square inches of Hunter's orange, I'd like
Speaker 1: to overturn that. I would never have sought to overturn
Speaker 1: this because it would have been how I would have
Speaker 1: just accepted it as like that's just the way things
Speaker 1: are by.
Speaker 2: You would have accepted it the same way you accept
Speaker 2: a private property.
Speaker 1: Line I would never think. I would never be you know,
Speaker 1: can they really do that? Right? I'm going to go
Speaker 1: back to the beginning of time and find out if
Speaker 1: they can really do that.
Speaker 4: And and you know, I think that your all of
Speaker 4: your reaction, you know, isn't this obvious? Is how I
Speaker 4: felt when I first learned about this, and and I
Speaker 4: pulled it up just because it's funny and it fits.
Speaker 4: That's how the Supreme Court, at least one justice thought
Speaker 4: about it to one time. This case made this kind
Speaker 4: of issue, made it all the way to the Supreme
Speaker 4: Court called Leo Sheep and just Leo Sheep animal ye
Speaker 4: Sheep being the animal Leo Sheep Company versus United States,
Speaker 4: and so a thirdgood Marshall actually said during oral arguably yeah,
Speaker 4: he said he said this, He said this. Is it
Speaker 4: not true if you look at the checkerboard, that it
Speaker 4: would always be possible to stay on government land except
Speaker 4: where you had to cross at corners. So is it
Speaker 4: not possible that Congress you mentioned the widespread understanding that
Speaker 4: people could go any place they wanted to in those
Speaker 4: days without worrying about having somebody build a fence in
Speaker 4: front of them. Is it not likely that Congress did
Speaker 4: not dream that there would be any problem about cutting
Speaker 4: across a corner every mile or so. Hmmm, that was
Speaker 4: his question nineteen seventy nine, No, kidd, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Is that where this is headed? Supreme Court? Look, what's
Speaker 1: the pathway? Was the legal pathway?
Speaker 4: Yeah, so we suck the case to federal court. We
Speaker 4: kept it in federal court. We won it in federal court.
Speaker 4: Now they're appealing to the Tenth Circuit. That's the next
Speaker 4: part of the dance. The Tenth Circuit is the Federal
Speaker 4: Court of Appeals that governs Wyoming in a few other spots.
Speaker 3: But now it goes beyond Justice Skalbdaal correct.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, so judgment.
Speaker 3: And I say that because when his opinions on the stays,
Speaker 3: so when the motion for it for a stay was denied,
Speaker 3: Justice that remained with Justice Scalvedall. Justice Scalvedell wrote his
Speaker 3: opinion as to why he would deny the stay, and
Speaker 3: in those opinions, there's a lot of things that I
Speaker 3: took is like very very positive for a pro public
Speaker 3: right to access public round standpoint.
Speaker 1: But now.
Speaker 3: I imagine those opinions will be considered by a higher court. Yes,
Speaker 3: but it won't be Justice Scalvedall. His opinion is on
Speaker 3: paper right now, and he won't be the judge of
Speaker 3: this again.
Speaker 4: Correct, Yeah, that's that's right. So so Judge Scavdal issues
Speaker 4: his decision down below everything that we've been talking about.
Speaker 4: He also says, I'm not going to stay that order.
Speaker 4: I'm not gonna put it on pause, not put it
Speaker 4: on ice. You guys can it's the law of the
Speaker 4: land in Wyoming. For now, they appeal to the Tenth Circuit.
Speaker 4: The Tenth Circuit has a broader jurisdiction. They hear appeals
Speaker 4: from Wyoming, but they also govern cases out of Oklahoma, Kansas,
Speaker 4: New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, and strangely the parts of Yellowstone
Speaker 4: National Park that extend into Montana and Idaho. That's the
Speaker 4: jurisdiction of the Tenth Circuit. They will review Judge Scavdaal's
Speaker 4: decision and they will either affirm it, meaning yep, we're
Speaker 4: good with it, they will reverse it, or they will
Speaker 4: reverse it.
Speaker 1: In part, they'll review it without all you all in
Speaker 1: the room.
Speaker 4: Well, we're gonna present arguments on paper, We're gonna probably
Speaker 4: have oral argument in front of them to the review.
Speaker 4: Part of the review process and then they will reach
Speaker 4: their decision without us in the room. Yeah, they will,
Speaker 4: but there's.
Speaker 2: A possibility they could just look at it and be like,
Speaker 2: there's no appeal.
Speaker 4: There are no no, no, there is an appeal. They're
Speaker 4: gonna they're gonna make a decision one way or another,
Speaker 4: probably won't have that till next year sometime. And then
Speaker 4: after that the losing party, whoever loses at that stage,
Speaker 4: would have the opportunity to petition the Supreme Court to
Speaker 4: take a look. Wow, so that's we're one step away.
Speaker 6: When you think about what you just said and that
Speaker 6: this might go to the Supreme Court, You've been practicing
Speaker 6: law for seven years.
Speaker 1: I mean, in your wildest dreams, did you have any.
Speaker 6: Idea that you'd be involved in a case and case
Speaker 6: so many people are interested in this, and like, I mean,
Speaker 6: it's got to be just.
Speaker 1: Like a trip.
Speaker 4: I have always wanted to be an appellet lawyer, and
Speaker 4: I when I was in law school, I was pretty nerdy.
Speaker 4: You can ask my wife. I used to go on
Speaker 4: runs and listen to Supreme Court arguments on my headphones
Speaker 4: and I I applied to be admitted to the Supreme
Speaker 4: Court last summer. Yeah, because I was at a feeling
Speaker 4: I've wanted a case to go and I've wanted to
Speaker 4: do it for this kind of one of my goals.
Speaker 4: So no, this is what I want to do. So
Speaker 4: I'm excited it's happening, and there's I'm excited that there's
Speaker 4: the possibility it could happen. But I'm ready to do it,
Speaker 4: and as long as the guys will have me, I'll
Speaker 4: keep doing it.
Speaker 1: Very cool.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and your.
Speaker 1: Oh way to the Supreme Court. Can we come down
Speaker 1: to record from the Supreme Court. But what do you
Speaker 1: think Justice Roberts Steve can be?
Speaker 3: Can you ask a question?
Speaker 1: We get a couple more chairs here.
Speaker 2: We didn't really get to the takeaway here at the
Speaker 2: end of our talking points.
Speaker 3: Let's do it real quick. Oh take it over, Ke,
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, just before you move on and Steve, you
Speaker 3: have a heart out in twenty minutes. I just want
Speaker 3: to throw that out my ears.
Speaker 1: Saga you want is getting closer to conclusion.
Speaker 2: You want to talk about the takeaway at the end.
Speaker 2: It's pretty important.
Speaker 1: I think, Oh well, he just said that. I think
Speaker 1: I'll read it flat out. It says what people should
Speaker 1: know sufficiently. You can take this to task or agree
Speaker 1: or whatever. Sufficiently careful, non damaging corner crossing in Wyoming
Speaker 1: is legal under current Wyoming law due to Ironbar decision statewide.
Speaker 4: That's right.
Speaker 1: So that does that mean that does that mean that
Speaker 1: there is zero legal risk of someone getting cited, hollered
Speaker 1: at advised against by a law enforcement official corner crossing.
Speaker 4: When Brown versus Board of Education was decided, Okay, that
Speaker 4: was the law and you probably remember the images. Yeah,
Speaker 4: just because something gets issued as a decision and it
Speaker 4: is the law, doesn't mean practically people are going to
Speaker 4: agree with it or follow it, especially with something that's
Speaker 4: contentious like this. And so what I'll say is this,
Speaker 4: legally speaking, I would feel you got real, real strong
Speaker 4: defense with that iron Bar case. And especially it's not
Speaker 4: civil trespass, no way, absolutely not civil trespass, because that's
Speaker 4: what iron Bar says. Criminal trespass is a little squishier deal,
Speaker 4: and local county attorneys can kind of do. They have
Speaker 4: a lot of discretion to bring cases even if it's
Speaker 4: going to be hard for them to win. So, could
Speaker 4: you get cited for criminal trespass? Yeah, you could get
Speaker 4: cited for criminal trespass? Would you win on that case?
Speaker 4: I would feel pretty good about your odds.
Speaker 1: That's the thing I wonder too, when I've been thinking
Speaker 1: about this, is how many how much appetite right now?
Speaker 1: How much appetite would even be to cite somebody knowing
Speaker 1: the depths that you're waiting into.
Speaker 2: All I can say is that there have been at
Speaker 2: least four or five current county and deputy county prosecutors
Speaker 2: across the state of Wyoming that I have seen since
Speaker 2: the decision came out who have all slapped me on
Speaker 2: the back and congratulated me. That's what I was going
Speaker 2: to ask you, like, did this like kind of reverberate
Speaker 2: all the way across Wyoming? So like the landowners are
Speaker 2: aware of it, County prosecutors are aware. Like everyone's kind
Speaker 2: of aware that this is the deal now in Wyoming, or.
Speaker 4: Wyoming is a small town with long streets, right, people
Speaker 4: know about this. Whether a prosecutor is going to be
Speaker 4: willing to say, you know, I'll take the bull by
Speaker 4: the horn and let's let's do it again, I mean,
Speaker 4: there wasn't much appetite for that before. I doubt the
Speaker 4: appetite has gone up for that, But it could happen.
Speaker 4: I mean, it could but like I said, I like
Speaker 4: your odds.
Speaker 1: Can I do it a nudendum for you hunters out
Speaker 1: there and mushroom pickers and whatnot, This was a surveyed corner.
Speaker 1: M Okay, pay really close attention to the words sufficiently, careful,
Speaker 1: non damaging corner crossing. This is a surveyed corner where
Speaker 1: the exact location of this corner has been certified.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 1: Fences just the existence of fences do not necessarily denote
Speaker 1: the location of property lines.
Speaker 5: And I'd like to add to that, your on X
Speaker 5: is unfortunately not going to be to the specifically agree
Speaker 5: that you're that you're talking about.
Speaker 3: It's going to get you in the ballpark.
Speaker 1: But you need to pin. And this is not a
Speaker 1: I mean, the app I use most in life, outside
Speaker 1: of probably my text app is on X. I I
Speaker 1: wouldn't want to live without on X. It is the
Speaker 1: most valuable hunting tool digital hunting tool that I can
Speaker 1: think of. But it doesn't show my property line where
Speaker 1: it sits enough that you're putting. Think about what we're saying.
Speaker 1: You're walking on a checkboard and you're placing your feet
Speaker 1: so carefully that you're on the black and you never
Speaker 1: touch the red. That is not what any digital mapping
Speaker 1: app has never told you that it's delivering you that
Speaker 1: level of accuracy.
Speaker 2: Right, you could be three feet off and breaking the law.
Speaker 6: Well, and it's not just the app. I mean, it's
Speaker 6: just the the techno. It's not like specific to on X.
Speaker 3: It's how much so, I mean, it's it's a very
Speaker 3: requisition of your and the Justice Govdal's stay. At the end,
Speaker 3: he says, I want to take this opportunity. The defendants
Speaker 3: in this case peaceably crossed. Do you like how I'm plan?
Speaker 3: Lawyer Ryan, I like you all right? Defendants peaceably crossed
Speaker 3: from public land to public land in the checkerboard area
Speaker 3: on foot, without touching the surface of any privately owned land,
Speaker 3: and without damaging any private property. Those were the facts
Speaker 3: presented to this Court for decision, and the Court stresses
Speaker 3: here the importance of public land users accessing public land
Speaker 3: and only public land in a law abiding, respectful manner.
Speaker 3: A physical confrontation with the private landowner, which we could
Speaker 3: get into instigated by a member of the public, may
Speaker 3: prove to be the single surest way for plaintiff to
Speaker 3: secure a stay pending appeal, because the likelihood of irreparable
Speaker 3: harm would no longer be speculative at this point.
Speaker 5: In this.
Speaker 3: Order to deny the stay. There's also language that that
Speaker 3: just says, like it was crystal clear the intent of
Speaker 3: the hunters was to move through this zone. So I've
Speaker 3: certainly said in my podcast, if you were going to
Speaker 3: attempt this act as if eyes are upon you, and
Speaker 3: you locate the corner, and you move through that zone,
Speaker 3: don't stop then dink around and pick shit up, for
Speaker 3: God's sake, Just move through, clearly with the intent of
Speaker 3: moving from one area of public into the next area
Speaker 3: of public.
Speaker 1: The worst thing that could happen right now, if you're
Speaker 1: an access proponent, the worst thing that could happen right
Speaker 1: now is a bunch of people fill their middle finger
Speaker 1: up in the air and start willing, nearly jumping over
Speaker 1: fences corner fences. Yes, and in the in this judges order,
Speaker 1: not where that's not where this sits right now. There.
Speaker 1: If this becomes clarified, there will be My prediction is
Speaker 1: there will be a lot of attention paid to strategically
Speaker 1: locating important corners, and there's a way that this will
Speaker 1: play out.
Speaker 5: But this is how they got to raise some money
Speaker 5: to get these pisiness.
Speaker 1: Like you out arguing with you are arguing with with
Speaker 1: landowners and ranchers about what you don't own those elk Yeah,
Speaker 1: where their fence and it's just it's just not how
Speaker 1: this needs to gop Do.
Speaker 3: You need to read the opinion in the stay, because
Speaker 3: I mean, it's very clear that all the things that
Speaker 3: we've read in the paper and including a lot of
Speaker 3: things that we covered here today which was very thorough,
Speaker 3: there's still a lot of context that was thought about
Speaker 3: from Justice Skobdal, some of which included like Steve was saying,
Speaker 3: wave in your middle finger.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 3: It alludes to the fact that there were calls to
Speaker 3: Iron Bar Holdings and some some veiled threats and probably
Speaker 3: just some some fuck us. But that actually made it
Speaker 3: into the justice's opinion, So you.
Speaker 1: Gotta he didn't ignore that, did not.
Speaker 3: Ignore that, took it into consideration because Iron Bar's counsel
Speaker 3: brought those points up, because you know that would be
Speaker 3: an issue to order a stay of opinion, is if
Speaker 3: it was thought by the judge that there were going
Speaker 3: to be some physical ramifications that could hurt somebody if
Speaker 3: the stay wasn't issued. Kind of kind of crappy, but
Speaker 3: more or less right there, Ryan, Well.
Speaker 1: No, I think that. I think that just just just
Speaker 1: so people know, because if I was listening to this,
Speaker 1: you know, while I was trying to work on something
Speaker 1: by garage, I might have missed this. But stay is
Speaker 1: when the decision gets made, but they know it's gonna
Speaker 1: be appealed, so they they basically come in and say,
Speaker 1: here's my decision, but we're gonna stay on like nothing.
Speaker 1: I'm not changing anything yet because I'm gonna wait for
Speaker 1: the appeals process to play out. So we're not gonna
Speaker 1: act on what I've decided, but that's my decision, and
Speaker 1: then we're gonna wait down the road. For greater clarity,
Speaker 1: Is that is that a fair way of describing a stay.
Speaker 4: It's a fair way of describing it. Just also to
Speaker 4: be clear the note the stay was denied.
Speaker 1: But I'm saying if everybody was out there having fistfights
Speaker 1: and stuffly you might be like, you know what, okay,
Speaker 1: never mind, everybody, stop, the stay is in place. This
Speaker 1: is getting out of hand. We're gonna, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: it down the road.
Speaker 4: And and and and to to just echo everything you
Speaker 4: guys have been saying, you gotta find the survey stake.
Speaker 4: You've got to physically find it with your eyes and
Speaker 4: and you've got to cross it carefully. Use use you
Speaker 4: can use on X or a compass to help direction
Speaker 4: yourself and orient your sottle orient for sure. Yeah, but
Speaker 4: you but but you can't rely on it, like you're
Speaker 4: saying to your footfalls, you got to use your eyeballs
Speaker 4: and direct yourself.
Speaker 2: Is there a process, like if you can't find that marker,
Speaker 2: is there a process to request like a survey or, Like,
Speaker 2: let's say I identify a corner where I can access
Speaker 2: whatever a few thousand acres of public land, but I
Speaker 2: can't like identify clearly where exactly that corner is. Like
Speaker 2: can you contact a federal agency and say it's not there,
Speaker 2: I can't find.
Speaker 4: Like yeah, so you you may be able to contact
Speaker 4: your BLM field office and notify them of that particular
Speaker 4: section corner missing it's survey steak because because that has
Speaker 4: to be a thing. Oh, it happens, for sure, because
Speaker 4: because you know, the old survey steaks were dinosaur bones
Speaker 4: or whatever they found in the field, and they would
Speaker 4: just pone it and they just pount it into the
Speaker 4: ground and now they are these like uniforms, you know,
Speaker 4: stainless steel or whatever. They are called monument Every now
Speaker 4: and then you trip on the verb is the verb
Speaker 4: is monumenting because because in the even if it's wrong,
Speaker 4: you talk about a lot of people's property lines are wrong.
Speaker 4: But the way the law works with those survey steaks,
Speaker 4: the survey steak is always perfect in the law does
Speaker 4: not matter even if it is wrong. The survey steak
Speaker 4: is monumented. It is correct. It is always correct. So yeah,
Speaker 4: you should notify feel on field office and maybe they
Speaker 4: can get a resurveyed or something like that.
Speaker 1: You know, you know, when you hear the term down
Speaker 1: to brass tacks, you want to know what my understanding
Speaker 1: of that is? Caps right there is yeah that if
Speaker 1: you wanted to get really a survey buddy told me
Speaker 1: it's I never fact checked him on it. On top
Speaker 1: of that, there's like a brass plate and that's basically it.
Speaker 1: But since these corners are infinitely small, the lines are
Speaker 1: infinitely small. To get down to brass tax is there's
Speaker 1: like a circle and within that you can place a
Speaker 1: clarifying pin. You can place a tack into that. If
Speaker 1: for greater clarification around that. Whatever the hell one inner
Speaker 1: and inch circles. I don't know.
Speaker 3: It may be true, some people say people are saying
Speaker 3: people are or I have found those things. I mean,
Speaker 3: that would have been a hell of a job. I've
Speaker 3: found those things in the most bizarre places and have
Speaker 3: always taken a picture of them. But then I always
Speaker 3: get around to thinking, like, you don't want to show
Speaker 3: that off happens to say, exactly where you were.
Speaker 10: We found one in Alaska recently, and I could not
Speaker 10: picture the person who'd like gotten there and then figured
Speaker 10: that out and drove that into ground.
Speaker 1: Right. Oh yeah, they had been thinking like who.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, yeah, because there are just obvious places where even
Speaker 3: you know, one hundred years ago, one hundred and fifty
Speaker 3: years ago, were you have this mindset of like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 3: the tax base is coming, this is all going to
Speaker 3: be home.
Speaker 1: Standd.
Speaker 3: There are plenty of places where you are standing you're like,
Speaker 3: not this place.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I get it, get it, I get it. No
Speaker 1: one is ever gonna come look for this. This is
Speaker 1: never gonna wind up being a thing where people are
Speaker 1: standing here.
Speaker 4: Arguing little did they know?
Speaker 1: All right, well thanks for coming on, man, Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: can you come back when something happens.
Speaker 4: Happy to do it.
Speaker 3: Oh and what what a timeline?
Speaker 1: So I go down to the Supreme Court with you?
Speaker 4: You can yeah? There there's you gotta get in line.
Speaker 4: There's public seating, and there's limited.
Speaker 1: Right up there with you.
Speaker 4: What I can do?
Speaker 3: I got an ear thing, So I gotta timeline one
Speaker 3: more time.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, So the the deadlines for some of the
Speaker 4: appeal has been extended a little bit for various reasons.
Speaker 4: So we expect the very first volley of argument will
Speaker 4: come out next month from them. From them, they will
Speaker 4: filew the first brief, UH should be November sixth. Then
Speaker 4: we will file an answering brief, either sometime in December
Speaker 4: or later, depending on if we need more time. Then
Speaker 4: they will get one more crack at responding to our brief,
Speaker 4: and then it'll be up to the Tenth Circuit to
Speaker 4: set argument and make a decision. I would expect a
Speaker 4: decision one way or another sometime late spring or summer
Speaker 4: of next year, if not later.
Speaker 1: If I was the listing agent or the whatever or
Speaker 1: the lawyer who put that deal together, I would be sweating.
Speaker 1: I would be sweating. Yeah, to be like, at some
Speaker 1: point someone's gonna have a question for me.
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of real estate agents around
Speaker 2: the country.
Speaker 4: I was looking at a little bit.
Speaker 6: I mean I saw a property listing the other day
Speaker 6: that probably has a brilliant where you're like that mentioned
Speaker 6: exclusive access to public lands that didn't have access. I mean,
Speaker 6: it's like when you start looking for it.
Speaker 3: Oh, I mean, there's there's one up by us, and
Speaker 3: it's like part of the benefit of our h o A,
Speaker 3: which is another evil, freaking entity that I would love
Speaker 3: to see burn.
Speaker 4: On the ground.
Speaker 1: I had no idea. I will never make that mistake, man.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but there's one in Anus. It's like part of
Speaker 3: the benefit of our h o A is exclusive access
Speaker 3: to everyone's public ground. I just want to go in
Speaker 3: there and I want to buy a lot, and I
Speaker 3: want to be like, bring on the lawsuits, your sons
Speaker 3: of bitches, all right.
Speaker 1: Thanks for coming on, man. So in the meantime you
Speaker 1: probably have to do all this stuff too, right, You
Speaker 1: got other clients, absolutely, Yeah, once you plug your law firm.
Speaker 1: Uh Fuller and Sammarad we're in Casper. Uh gifts call
Speaker 1: three h seven. So what kind of trouble, what kind
Speaker 1: of trouble. Are you looking for down there?
Speaker 4: Anything? I mean?
Speaker 1: I I like divorce.
Speaker 4: I like to fight.
Speaker 3: I don't like to stop ass kickings.
Speaker 4: I do trucks stop ass kickings.
Speaker 3: Were joking a chaser?
Speaker 4: No, I try to avoid that too. I just I
Speaker 4: like to fight.
Speaker 1: So what's your favorite? What's what's the best call you
Speaker 1: can get?
Speaker 4: Defense of any kind? I like doing those, like helping
Speaker 4: criminals out. Do you? I like helping people steel.
Speaker 3: You're joking on the way over that. There's still plenty
Speaker 3: of rural Wyoming that is not dissimilar from rural eastern Montana,
Speaker 3: where people are likely to come in the door and
Speaker 3: be like, you know that drinking and driving thing. They're
Speaker 3: actually serious about it.
Speaker 5: Do you ever do that kind of work?
Speaker 9: Oh?
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, get a lot of that. Got a trial
Speaker 4: coming up from cody in November, so I'll be off
Speaker 4: doing that.
Speaker 1: And you do child custody.
Speaker 4: I try to avoid it, have done it, but I
Speaker 4: try to avoid it. I don't like that stuff. Yep,
Speaker 4: that's not as much fun.
Speaker 1: So how far what's your range? How far do you go?
Speaker 4: I do the whole state of Wyoming, but I'm barred
Speaker 4: in Nevada and Ohio too, but I'm inactive in those
Speaker 4: states because I don't really practice there anymore. So if
Speaker 4: you if your law dog and it's in Wyoming, yep, Wyoming,
Speaker 4: that's where it's.
Speaker 3: At, you're gonna get just raked over the coals by
Speaker 3: not using the a your for your alma longer.
Speaker 4: You know that the Ohio state, Yeah, I know, I know.
Speaker 1: I don't know about I don't understand this, but I
Speaker 1: don't have tos. I never get my continues to be
Speaker 1: a problem.
Speaker 9: Oh all.
Speaker 8: Right on, all the seal gray shine like silver in
Speaker 8: the sun.
Speaker 1: Right right along.
Speaker 11: Sweetheart, were done beat this damn horse to death.
Speaker 5: Taking a new one. Ride.
Speaker 11: We're done beat this damn horse today, So take a
Speaker 11: new one and ride on.