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Speaker 1: This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underware listeningcast. You can't

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Speaker 1: predict anything. The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you

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Speaker 1: by First Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands,

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Speaker 1: or scouting for el First Light has performance apparel to

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Speaker 1: support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at

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Speaker 1: first light dot com. F I R S T L

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Speaker 1: I T E dot com. You were the man who

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Speaker 1: just hunts birds now except let's let's it's Tomagwaen went

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Speaker 1: on a pheasant last year. Tom mcgwaan has. It's like

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Speaker 1: I appreciate with Tom mcgwaan.

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Speaker 2: He's got He wrote a real good essay on mule

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Speaker 2: deer hunting along.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that was a good that's good.

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Speaker 3: But like when I get real serious about walking for roosters,

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Speaker 3: especially like late season public land roosters, you tell me

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Speaker 3: who's the bigger hunter?

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Speaker 4: A dude who.

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Speaker 3: Walks from their electric vehicle to a tree stand to

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Speaker 3: shoot a white tail?

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Speaker 1: Listen, I'm machine.

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Speaker 4: This is an argument worth having.

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Speaker 1: This machine is on. Phil's machine is on. I'm okay.

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Speaker 1: Phil's machine is on. You miss something, but I'm try

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Speaker 1: to explain where we're at on this, and then we're

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Speaker 1: gonna we're gonna just to titillate, just to titillate. We're

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Speaker 1: joined by the most important lawyer in America right now,

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Speaker 1: Ryan samarand Samarad.

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Speaker 4: How do you like to say that Samarad?

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Speaker 1: Samarad most important?

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Speaker 3: Just like it's spelled. Some people think, which always makes

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Speaker 3: you feel good.

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Speaker 1: I was seeing it in in there. I don't know why.

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Speaker 1: I've looked at a thousand times. Some people think it's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: the most important lawyer in America right now must be uh,

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 4: He's not even a lawyer anymore.

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Speaker 1: Okay, scratch him. Most important lawyer in America right now

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Speaker 1: is the lawyer that's defending No, no, no, it'd be

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Speaker 1: like the lawyer that's defending President Trump in the in

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Speaker 1: the in the in the Georgia election. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I'm just trying just pulling straws here. Some people might

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Speaker 1: think that, right, they might think, whatever lawyer is going

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Speaker 1: to litigate the next election in four and a half years,

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Speaker 1: But there's no way that's going to be clear. There's

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Speaker 1: no way. Everybody's just gonna go like yeah, figures don't.

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Speaker 1: Why but no, it's this guy right here, right right

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Speaker 1: in our studios, the most important lawyer in America. Why

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Speaker 1: stay tuned back to what I said to what said, Well,

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Speaker 1: I wasn't dogging on Okay, we're having a conversation about

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Speaker 1: when public figures. When public figures in the conservation space,

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Speaker 1: public figures and managed wildlife management will want to be

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Speaker 1: able to have their sort of hunting bonafides and then

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Speaker 1: leverage those to attack hunting. You will find that they

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Speaker 1: often are I'm sorry, they often are bird hunters because

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Speaker 1: they feel that they can do that right that they're

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Speaker 1: they're hoping like, well, I hope this will buy me

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Speaker 1: some street cred I can identify as. But then I

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Speaker 1: will still be able to go to the cocktail parties

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Speaker 1: that I'd like to go to because I'm not that bloody.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, because I don't chase lions with hounds.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So it's like, it's not dogging on it. I'm

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Speaker 1: not dogging. I'm just saying I've made a comment like

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Speaker 1: beware the bird hunter. I didn't mean beware bird hunters.

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Speaker 1: Bird huners. Great. He also clarified except Tom McGain because

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Speaker 1: Tom mcgwaen was a big game hunter and eventually became

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Speaker 1: a bird hunter. And when Yanni and I interviewed him

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Speaker 1: years ago on this show, Tom mcgwen, he said, you know,

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Speaker 1: of speaking of all hunting and he's a hunter. He

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Speaker 1: said something to the effect of, you know, you are

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Speaker 1: trying to kill things that want to stay alive. Can't

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Speaker 1: ignore that, right, And well, no, he wasn't even he

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Speaker 1: wasn't like acting. He was warning us out about his

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Speaker 1: own his own self. And you're saying, are we gonna

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Speaker 1: ignore are we honestly going to ignore this? Or can

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Speaker 1: we talk about this for a minute, you know, And

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Speaker 1: he's a novelist, he's supposed to he can't ignore. They're

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Speaker 1: not allowed to ignore stuff. They have to talk about stuff.

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Speaker 1: That's all I was saying. I wasn't hacking on bird

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Speaker 1: hunters that I was. It was just that there's another

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Speaker 1: there's I could just name a handful of them.

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Speaker 3: Oh, the super annoying wolf grizzly guy.

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Speaker 5: No, my goodness, no, no.

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Speaker 1: No, I'm right.

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Speaker 3: And and I think this is where I very much

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Speaker 3: agree with you, like these people that it is very

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Speaker 3: very common, like they do some fly angling and they

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Speaker 3: own a breed of dog that is generally considered a

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Speaker 3: bird dog that I believe just like fits the profile

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Speaker 3: versus whisper.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I mean, what is it rhyme with?

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Speaker 3: There's a lot whisper.

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Speaker 1: What it rhymes with?

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Speaker 3: Most of them are some dainty pointer or possibly a

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Speaker 3: small flusher.

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Speaker 2: But why can't we say it a red bone? Why

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Speaker 2: can't we say the dog?

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Speaker 4: Why can't we say the dogs?

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Speaker 1: Because he doesn't want people to feel attacked, No, I don't, Well,

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Speaker 1: there's not it's not an attack on the dog.

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Speaker 2: It's just that these people own that kind of dog.

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Speaker 3: Well, but there's several breeds though, like we could go

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Speaker 3: through all the red I'm just saying that it's gonna

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Speaker 3: be considered a bird dog, but that dog would not

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Speaker 3: be considered a bird dog when compared to actual bird dogs,

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Speaker 3: because it's not it's being used very casually, not very seriously.

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Speaker 1: So that bird dog is a metaphor for that kind

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Speaker 1: of hunter. Yeah, well, I'm joking, but there's a variety

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Speaker 1: of breeds. I've taken this beatn the table you.

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Speaker 3: And then this is where the fun part started for

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Speaker 3: the audience, and I said, just you know, keep in

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Speaker 3: mind late season rooster hunting, when I'm getting real serious

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Speaker 3: about birds with the dog. If you compare what I'm

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Speaker 3: doing compared to let's call them a hardcore, badass tree

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Speaker 3: stand whitetail hunter.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it is box blind.

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Speaker 5: It is whitetail week cow.

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Speaker 3: It is not by the time this place that you know,

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Speaker 3: most circles would be like, well, this person is obviously

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Speaker 3: working a little harder.

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Speaker 1: Yep, But I'm not. Again, I'm not talking about the

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Speaker 1: discipline or practice of I'm talking about the politics of Yes,

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Speaker 1: why did well? No, because this is a little bit different,

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Speaker 1: This is a little bit contradict. No, that's a bird.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if it's still true, but historically a

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Speaker 1: presidential candidate would want to establish their hunting bona fides.

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Speaker 1: I believe this is true. I believe Hillary Clinton even

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Speaker 1: linked herself to past hunters.

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Speaker 6: She she famously told stories about.

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Speaker 1: Going duck hunting growing up. John Kerry, what did he do?

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Speaker 1: Remember him? Yep? John Kerry went on a goose hunt,

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Speaker 1: didn't get one, and he made a very strange He

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Speaker 1: made a very he made a very strange He did

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Speaker 1: a strange move that that backfired. He had a guy

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Speaker 1: carry his shotgun. So someone was sort of like, probably

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Speaker 1: not best right to have a ton of photos of

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Speaker 1: him with the shotgun, but instead you have a ton

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Speaker 1: of photos of him looking like a country dandy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a typical way with carried his.

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Speaker 1: Gun like as though it's like his caddy. And so

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Speaker 1: then it became lampooned. But he still felt the need

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Speaker 1: to establish his bona fides. Now you take this and

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Speaker 1: look at where this. Mitt Romney had the same situation.

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Speaker 1: Mitt Romney's like, oh, yeah, hunt, someone says, funny, you're

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Speaker 1: not in the database of people who had so then

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Speaker 1: he had to Then he had to be like and

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Speaker 1: he's like, wow, I hunted varmits.

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Speaker 6: I believe he's I believe you said I hunted varmints

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Speaker 6: and such.

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Speaker 1: And then you're like, yeah, I wish I had just

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Speaker 1: never even brought this. I wish I'd never even brought

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Speaker 1: this up.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the aids are scrambling. Oh boy, no, I think

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Speaker 3: there's a There does exist a compilation of political figure

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Speaker 3: photo ops, like awkward gun handling photo ops out there,

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Speaker 3: and also like fishing, awkward fishing.

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Speaker 4: You know it exists.

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Speaker 1: But the dude not a quick thing before we get

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Speaker 1: to the world's most important lawyer in the moment, some

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Speaker 1: keeping it, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, yeating, exactly, well done.

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Speaker 1: I want to get them toea cocky, most important lawyer

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Speaker 1: in the moment for the last collection of moments. How

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Speaker 1: many years?

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Speaker 4: About two? Okay, well I've been a lawyer for seven,

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Speaker 4: but this case.

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Speaker 1: About Yeah, we're gonna get to that heavy duty. It's

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Speaker 1: good that you're here.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, can you just quick finish this thought up? The

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Speaker 1: dude that the governor of Colorado is married to he's

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Speaker 1: very outspoken animal rights. Actually yes, and there's.

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Speaker 2: I mean, whatever, call it rumors, but there's definitely like

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Speaker 2: people that say, well, president's president.

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Speaker 1: Put it this way. A lot of people are saying a.

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Speaker 2: Lot of people are saying that that's dictating policy towards

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Speaker 2: hunting in Colorado.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, there's no argument that shows uh an

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Speaker 3: administration doesn't sway the state Fishing Game Office, sure like

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Speaker 3: in most most states that I'm aware of.

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Speaker 7: But his home is not an elected official. Well yeah,

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Speaker 7: but I mean I'm just saying, you know, pillow talk right, Yeah, true.

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Speaker 7: You know, when we do our live show in Denver,

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Speaker 7: Yanni invite Polish.

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Speaker 5: Do we invite him?

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, But I think that.

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Speaker 5: That talk about this a little bit.

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Speaker 1: I think that that live show should mostly be focused

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Speaker 1: on this issue. I love it. You know.

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Speaker 2: There are people, including myself to some degree, were kind

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Speaker 2: of like when Polis was was running, like when he

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Speaker 2: was a state representative. He was our state representative round

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Speaker 2: Bail for a while, and he was very like pro

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Speaker 2: public lands, did a lot to establish like he was

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Speaker 2: doing stuff up at Camp Halee, doing stuff for like

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Speaker 2: getting wilderness areas designated.

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Speaker 5: Things you liked, things.

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Speaker 2: I liked, right, But the hunting thing was like not

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Speaker 2: even part of the part of the deal.

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Speaker 1: So he was he was a good public lands advocate,

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Speaker 1: was not a hunting advocate.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but it wasn't like the radar because back then

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Speaker 2: Hick and Looper wasn't anti hunting, like at least in

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Speaker 2: any perceivable way.

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Speaker 1: I mean you hunted with him, I think no, I

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Speaker 1: would know he definitely wasn't.

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Speaker 3: Oh he was at the one shot the way back

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Speaker 3: when he.

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Speaker 1: Definitely I mean, at great political risk to himself, he

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Speaker 1: went to the one shot, meaning he went to the

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Speaker 1: one shot in Wyhoming and everyone he knows everyone in

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Speaker 1: the room hates him, and he knows that everyone back homes,

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Speaker 1: everyone in the room hates him for his gun policy,

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Speaker 1: everyone back home hates him. That he's hunting antelope, and

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Speaker 1: he was having the best time of anybody there. I said,

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Speaker 1: I did it with him. He's a cloud nine the

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Speaker 1: whole time people are coming saying awful stuff to him.

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Speaker 1: He's just having the time. I was like, this guy's

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Speaker 1: got balls, man.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and Polish was the first Colorado governor that bailed

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Speaker 2: out of that one shot.

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Speaker 1: No. I couldn't believe, man, I couldn't believe the hick

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Speaker 1: and looper, Like, how how good of a time he

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Speaker 1: was having in a situation that anybody else has been, Like,

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Speaker 1: there's no way in the world, dude, I'm gonna have

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Speaker 1: my gun record and go to Wyoming with a bunch

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Speaker 1: of gun people and then have to come back home

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Speaker 1: and everybody bitching me from the other side that I

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Speaker 1: went down there with all them gun people.

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Speaker 4: Hey, man, that's a you know, he's able to do both.

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Speaker 2: That's a good politician, I guess, yeah.

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Speaker 1: You know, because he came from the bar business. One

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Speaker 1: thing you learn in the bar business is you learn

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Speaker 1: how to sit in a hostile environment.

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Speaker 3: That's the truth. That's amazing.

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Speaker 1: You learn how to be around people that don't think

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Speaker 1: what you think. Yep. Also, the twenty twenty four calendar

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Speaker 1: is out, so if you if you purchased and loved

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Speaker 1: fucked up old deer stands, fucked up old Taxidermy, we're

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Speaker 1: taking a break from that run and it's called the

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Speaker 1: Dirty dozen this year, but we'll get back.

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Speaker 5: To the old basically like fucked up old TV personality

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Speaker 5: hunting TV.

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Speaker 1: And then in twenty twenty five. I'm still thinking fucked

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Speaker 1: up old fish cleaning stations, but that's like heard, I

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Speaker 1: like that one. But fucked up dirtish and boats is

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Speaker 1: good to the dirtiest, nastiest fish cleaning.

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Speaker 2: Stay sucked up old deer camps.

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Speaker 1: I know some fish I've talked with tigraphers on They're like,

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Speaker 1: it's hard to capture a dirty fish clean and.

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Speaker 4: Stay the beauty of a dirty fish.

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Speaker 1: It's hard to like because you either got to focus

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Speaker 1: in on the dirty, slimy parts or you stand back.

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Speaker 1: It's just hard to capture. If you talk to a

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Speaker 1: photographer about it, it might need to be a video.

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Speaker 1: A calendar that is full of videos. That's hard because

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Speaker 1: there's different like layers of scale crime. Yeah, when you

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Speaker 1: reach on a dilapidated structure.

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Speaker 2: Have seth provide a good example of the cleaning station

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Speaker 2: at the fish shack and say make a photo like this.

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Speaker 4: I don't want that. I don't want to. I don't

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Speaker 4: want to.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to name the one. I can't name

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Speaker 1: the one that's in my mind right now because it

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Speaker 1: would be in politics to name the one's on my

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Speaker 1: mind right now, but it'd have to be scratch and sniff.

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Speaker 1: It's a scratch and sniff calendar.

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Speaker 3: Were those ones with the grinder in the middle right,

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Speaker 3: like in the July You go, oh yeah, so you're

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Speaker 3: hitting the face and the eyeballs, and.

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Speaker 2: Then someone throws a fifteen pound channel cat carcass in

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Speaker 2: there and just the grinder locks up and everything.

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Speaker 1: This grinder, Oh they're a genius, but they don't accept

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Speaker 1: big calfish head, so it pull it grinds everything.

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Speaker 5: This is a public Oh you throw a bluegill in there.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't even change tune.

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Speaker 4: Oh I threw in.

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Speaker 5: Where do they go they use it for.

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Speaker 1: Goes into the septic I'm guessing goes into the municipal.

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Speaker 3: There's a chum pipe out and every lag.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean grinds it. Dude's cool, No, it's genius.

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Speaker 1: There's one.

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Speaker 4: Uh.

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Speaker 1: The first one I ran into was in my home

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Speaker 1: state of Michigan, not while I lived there, but when

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Speaker 1: I visited there recently.

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Speaker 5: But it's been that thing has been around a while.

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Speaker 2: They got them all over Montana, Like all the way

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Speaker 2: down the Missouri.

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Speaker 5: Must not be cleaning that many fish.

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Speaker 3: For Walleye folks, Like, yeah, they're they got.

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Speaker 2: A hose my kids, that thing seeing all the fish

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Speaker 2: coming in throwing those things in that ground.

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Speaker 3: I had a very diplomatic situation one night. This is

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Speaker 3: a very quick story, but we were at this deal.

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Speaker 3: We went out fishing with this guy. It was very serious. Walleyee.

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Speaker 3: We get up to the fish cleaning station. There's two

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Speaker 3: guides there. You can tell there. You can just tell

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Speaker 3: at what stage of their day they're in stage home

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Speaker 3: and both right, it's like it's late. It was a

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Speaker 3: really cold, windy day out of the Missouri out in

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Speaker 3: South Dakota. And I watch our guy who's just like

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Speaker 3: this aggressive old football player type. Have no, he doesn't

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Speaker 3: even acknowledge that these other people exist at the cleaning station,

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Speaker 3: and so when he's grabbing the hose and hosing stuff off,

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Speaker 3: he's just I mean, and you can see the temperature

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Speaker 3: is rising.

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Speaker 1: Yea.

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Speaker 3: So I'm like backpedaling like a free safety Steve and

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Speaker 3: I get to the boat and I like dig out

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Speaker 3: or pack of beer haul ass to the fish cleaning station. Like, hey, guys,

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Speaker 3: look like he had a long day, Dima. You just

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Speaker 3: see like the thermometer was like right at the very

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Speaker 3: top and she just started coming down.

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Speaker 1: It's just like, oh my god, We're gonna do one

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Speaker 1: news item, and this is this is one of those ones.

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Speaker 1: This is a story that never goes away. It just

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Speaker 1: moves generally from island. This is a story that moves

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Speaker 1: from island to island around America, probably globally. Catalina Island

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Speaker 1: mule deer versus native plants and grasses. A plan to

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Speaker 1: use helicopter mounted sharpshooters to kill nearly two thousand invasive

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Speaker 1: mule deers roaming the mountains of Santa Catalina Island has

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Speaker 1: ignited a storm of protests among residents of the popular

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Speaker 1: resort destination and prompt the calls for state wildlife officials

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Speaker 1: to block the hunts. Now I've been out there because

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Speaker 1: I went out there because they have a.

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Speaker 5: Called a hunt.

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Speaker 1: They have a hunt.

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Speaker 5: No I know, but they should.

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Speaker 1: I don't know why they're calling that a hunt. Yeah, eradication, Okay,

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Speaker 1: So reason to say this just jumps from island to

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Speaker 1: island around the country. Islands being what they are, there's

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Speaker 1: a whole discipline if you want to if listeners want

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Speaker 1: to get real serious about this, there's a whole discipline

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Speaker 1: called island biogeography. Islands being what they are, oftentimes didn't

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Speaker 1: get large. You know, they don't have large mammals on them.

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Speaker 1: Birds find them, right, and then oftentimes little stuff finds them.

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Speaker 1: But a lot of times islands don't have full suites

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Speaker 1: of large mammals, and people being people, they get out

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Speaker 1: to an island, they're like, damn, this place to be

341
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Speaker 1: a lot better with a bunch of X, and they

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Speaker 1: turn it loose. And then what they don't turn loose

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Speaker 1: is coyotes and wolves and lions, and pretty soon you have,

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Speaker 1: you know, insane populations of ungulates, meaning what could be

345
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Speaker 1: wild sheep could be omnivores like pigs. What am I missing?

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Speaker 1: Axes deer well elk.

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Speaker 2: The funny thing is is I had a buddy in

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Speaker 2: college that was a wildlife and fishery science major. His

349
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Speaker 2: first job out of college was on Catalina Island eradicating

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Speaker 2: goats and pigs, and like they weren't complaining about that

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Speaker 2: back now, I understand, but he killed so many of

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Speaker 2: those things. He said, like after a couple of years,

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Speaker 2: he was just like he he was a hunter, and

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Speaker 2: he was just like overwhelmed by the mind.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the dirtiest deed I've ever heard of when you're

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Speaker 1: doing goat control on islands. You know about the goot,

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Speaker 1: the Judas goat, I've heard. Yeah, Man, those those guys,

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Speaker 1: those sharpshooter dudes. They'll take a goat right and put

359
00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,400
Speaker 1: a little track and collar on him and let them

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Speaker 1: go go find your bodies. And you wait awhile, and

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Speaker 1: you just know that goat's gonna find the other goats.

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Speaker 1: You know what it is? They stole that idea from

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Speaker 1: Red Dawn. Do you remember that kid's a great and

364
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Speaker 1: Red Dawn. That kid went into town. He wasn't supposed

365
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Speaker 1: to go into town, and the ruskies caught him and

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Speaker 1: they made him swallow that tracking device, and then the

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Speaker 1: Ruskies came for him and they killed all the rooskies,

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Speaker 1: and then they had they got that tracking device, and

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Speaker 1: he's like trying to figure out who in the tracking

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00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,840
Speaker 1: device leads him right to his third buddy and he

371
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Speaker 1: shoots them. That's where they got that idea for the

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Speaker 1: Judas go good meal deer hout and see in that

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Speaker 1: movie too. Oh yeah, brings it right back around to

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Speaker 1: what I was talking about. This moves around all the time.

375
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Speaker 1: So you have islands, and islands have just the same

376
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Speaker 1: bio island biogeography that perhaps keeps you know, grazers off

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Speaker 1: allows islands to develop unique suites of vegetation, right, sometimes

378
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Speaker 1: unique suites of vegetation that don't exist anywhere else on

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Speaker 1: the planet. But then you move grazers out there, and grazers,

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Speaker 1: you know, graysed down native vegetations. They create a disturbed ecosystem.

381
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Speaker 1: You still have people running around, they're introducing non native

382
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Speaker 1: weeds intentionally accidentally, they're planning ornamentals, whatever. And then pretty

383
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Speaker 1: soon you have this island that was full of endemic species,

384
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Speaker 1: meaning things found nowhere else or communities found nowhere else.

385
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Speaker 1: And then it kind of looks a lot like Mainland,

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Speaker 1: meaning you know you got cheat grass and melder whatever

387
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Speaker 1: the hell. Just you see this all the time. So

388
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Speaker 1: they're always debating this out like in the in Hawaii.

389
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Speaker 1: You know, there's a big thing in Maui, for instance,

390
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,000
Speaker 1: tons of axes deer, a lot of people hunt them

391
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Speaker 1: in love access deer.

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Speaker 4: A lot of.

393
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Speaker 1: People are like, they don't belong here, they're brought by people.

394
00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:18,800
Speaker 1: They're destroying endemic species. And it's just just this argument

395
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,639
Speaker 1: that floats around and never goes away. And it's a

396
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,240
Speaker 1: tricky one for me because I'm always you know, like anybody,

397
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:28,119
Speaker 1: I like to see, you know, lots of animals to

398
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Speaker 1: go hunting for, and and like anyone I like to

399
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:35,679
Speaker 1: you know, I like to preserve the planet's biodiversity. So

400
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:41,440
Speaker 1: Catalina Island has mule deer, and they have American buffalo

401
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,399
Speaker 1: or bison. They have those because of they filmed the

402
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 1: movie out there and brought them out there, and they're

403
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,720
Speaker 1: still out there running around, you know, free ranging, semi wild.

404
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,359
Speaker 1: But apparently now they're gonna they're they're they're fixing to

405
00:22:54,440 --> 00:23:00,360
Speaker 1: eliminate the mule deer right now. They are allowing uh,

406
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 1: right now, they're allowing two hundred of these deer to

407
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,600
Speaker 1: get one hundred a year, so you can get permits

408
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 1: and hunt two hundred deer a year. But they're looking

409
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,120
Speaker 1: just to put the kibosh on the whole thing and

410
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 1: use helicopters to kill all the year. And some people

411
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Speaker 1: ain't happy.

412
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 3: They make the hunt very complicated.

413
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 1: They do do know anything about it.

414
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 3: I've looked into you know that.

415
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 1: I didn't know that it existed.

416
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 3: I looked into it well because I had this dream

417
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 3: of participating in the hunt while lobster season was in

418
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 3: was happening, right, so you could go hunt mule deer

419
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 3: and then go dive for lobsters at night. Sounds pretty awesome.

420
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 3: Camp on a beach. I mean you're getting the picture right,

421
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:54,880
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, lovely, yeah's island island oasis. But the yeah,

422
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 3: the there's they heavily incentivize, like the use of outfitters

423
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 3: on the island. It was just like overly complicated to

424
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,360
Speaker 3: get through just to get the information that you want

425
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 3: to go out there and hunt other toads out there.

426
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:11,360
Speaker 1: I have seen.

427
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 3: Some nice sheds on people's shelves and stuff out there,

428
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 3: but I'm not sure if they're growing anything like real big.

429
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 3: I'm sure it's pretty darn incesty out there, got it. Yeah,

430
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 3: And I know there's also just you know, there's not

431
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 3: an over abundance of fresh water on the island it.

432
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, So this is one of those ones. If I

433
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Speaker 1: live there, I'd be passed it is. It's a thorny one.

434
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 1: So come up with your own decisions about that.

435
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:48,120
Speaker 3: Well, the bison are a tourist trap, and that's.

436
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 1: Why I went there when I was working on my

437
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 1: Buffalo book. I went, oh, that's wild.

438
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 3: And yeah, I mean the the deer people can they

439
00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 3: are more available for people to go out and hunt.

440
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 3: Harvard can eat. It's no brainer to me. You can

441
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 3: have your your five bison out there and have your

442
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 3: Jurassic Park experience and and let people actually go hunt

443
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:11,479
Speaker 3: the meal deer.

444
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:16,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, and maybe just increase the tags so that so

445
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:20,679
Speaker 5: that the native flora can actually handle the pressure.

446
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,679
Speaker 1: That's why is that not part of the conversation. If

447
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,360
Speaker 1: you have two thousand and you're killing ten percent a year,

448
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 1: why why not for a while kill twenty percent a

449
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,880
Speaker 1: year or fifty yeah, or fifty and then and then

450
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 1: and then see what the I don't see what the

451
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 1: impact is. Well, they're not killing enough. That's solvable. At

452
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 1: what point get one? Here's the guy that here's the

453
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 1: guy that wants to get one.

454
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 2: It is California, Like, do they really want to.

455
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 1: Use hunting to solve their problem?

456
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 5: You know, it's.

457
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 3: Anecdotal, but there used to be. I was told from

458
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 3: a resident of Catalina that it used to be you

459
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 3: could only kill a buck if you killed a doe

460
00:25:58,240 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 3: or possibly two doughs.

461
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 4: At one point a buck.

462
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's one hundred dog duran's perking up a bug?

463
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 1: Is that all?

464
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,880
Speaker 3: Which I think is probably a lot for I mean,

465
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 3: that thing is a desert rock out there.

466
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, so it seems like one hundred and fifty bison

467
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 5: could be eating as much as those two thousand mule deer.

468
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:21,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's an easy math to do.

469
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:36,879
Speaker 1: All right. Ryan Samarat the corner the Corner Crossing lawyer,

470
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: the lawyer who is representing the Wyoming corner crossers that

471
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 1: have just been in the news and we've spent endless

472
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: amounts of time on this. We had the four we

473
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 1: had how many guys from from Missouri came out? We

474
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 1: had two, We had some of the corner crossers from

475
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 1: Missouri come out. They've been on the show. We've had

476
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,159
Speaker 1: analysts and other lawyers on the show to talk about this.

477
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: But right now we're gonna hear updates, insight, narratives, and

478
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: explanations from the actual attorney who's in there duking it

479
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,120
Speaker 1: out in the courtrooms. Good to be here now, I'm

480
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 1: so sick of explaining it. You explain it for a minute,

481
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 1: do a high level do the high level explanation. We'll

482
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 1: introduce yourself to that.

483
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 4: Yeah. So my name is Ryan Summerad. I'm an attorney

484
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 4: living Casper.

485
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 1: Where were you born.

486
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 4: I'm born in upstate New York, Chenectady. Uh. And in

487
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,880
Speaker 4: light of your long conversation about the politics of non

488
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 4: hunters and visuals, I'll tell you I don't hunt at all.

489
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 1: You don't hunt at all, not at.

490
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,879
Speaker 4: All, So just see you.

491
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, number of did no background research?

492
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, probably do.

493
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 6: You could probably get some good invites to some hunting

494
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:55,400
Speaker 6: camps after this whole mess.

495
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you got a lot of That was my question.

496
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 5: Have you had opportunity your dec to hunt, like, have

497
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,479
Speaker 5: you dabbled or you just have never not?

498
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 4: Didn't grow up with it? Mom and dad weren't part

499
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 4: of that family, wasn't part of my uncle.

500
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 3: I think I'm a little bit go to law school

501
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 3: Ohio States.

502
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 4: So how'd you wind up in it's the yeah you're

503
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 4: supposed to say the thing? Uh, so came about a girl.

504
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,640
Speaker 4: My wife's born raising Casper. You meet her at Ohio State.

505
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 4: She's a lawyer too.

506
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: There was a law dog and all the time.

507
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, actually her and her firm assisted on the case.

508
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 4: Really yeah yeah, no hunting, no hunting, no hunting at all. Yeah,

509
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 4: huh yeah.

510
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 1: Uh but actually glad.

511
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, so a lot of this stuff is just interesting

512
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 4: to me. I mean I don't know much about it,

513
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 4: but it's interesting hearing you guys talk about it.

514
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 1: But uh, what do you think about that island out

515
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 1: there in California? Yeah, what'd you take?

516
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 5: Well?

517
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, eradicating from a helicopter seems a

518
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 4: little ungamely on sports after sports? Uh, but yeah, I

519
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 4: mean I think they should let colg hunt a little bit.

520
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 1: I think leg.

521
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 4: That's a perspective, that's a perspective.

522
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 3: Problem is with these guys. You got to pay a

523
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 3: lot just for a letter that says they recommend that.

524
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's a that's a freebie for you.

525
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 5: They call that pro bono.

526
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, so about this corner crossing things. So I

527
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 4: guess I want to do a little more background. Oh yeah, sure, sure, sure.

528
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 1: You meet you're in law school, you meet another law school.

529
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: Do you guys call each other candidates?

530
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:45,719
Speaker 4: Classmates?

531
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 1: Randall here has got a pH d. He probably told

532
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: you about that, didn't He cal called them doctor told uh, okay,

533
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: So you're in law school, you meet your wife. She's

534
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 1: in law school, and at some point she says, I

535
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 1: would like to get back. I would like to get

536
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: back home to Wyoming a few.

537
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 4: More stops along the way. Actually, So my first job

538
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 4: was working for a law firm in Cleveland, and her

539
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 4: first job was working for a law firm in Las Vegas.

540
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 4: So I was flying to Vegas like every other week,

541
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 4: it felt like, And I'm sure there were some questions

542
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 4: at the office, why Ryan's leaving all the time to

543
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 4: go to Vegas day every Friday? There I was, He's back,

544
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 4: but now I was just going to visit her and

545
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 4: wanted to. We weren't even engaged at the time, but

546
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 4: kind of knew she was the one. So I got

547
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 4: a job lined up out there, working with a judge,

548
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 4: so I could be out there starting in twenty seventeen.

549
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 4: And funny, just funny story getting out there. I actually

550
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 4: my wildlife experience. Here's my wildlife experience. You're ready for it.

551
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 4: There were friends we had in Vegas. They had two turtles,

552
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 4: Bonnie and Claus. Clyde was living in Ohio with their daughter,

553
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 4: and they asked me, because they knew that I was

554
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 4: moving to Vegas, if I would mind transport and Clyde

555
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 4: back to Bonnie. Uh.

556
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 5: So I drove.

557
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 4: Had I had him in a little plastic container, a

558
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 4: little bit of water, and he was sitting in the

559
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 4: passenger shoes just me.

560
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 3: Me and Clyde to him and be like, so, what

561
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 3: are you gonna say when you see her?

562
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: That's right? A buddy movie?

563
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, So we we drew drove from Cleveland and

564
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 4: then our first stop was in Des Moines, and then

565
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 4: we went from Des Moines to Frisco, Colorado. We broke

566
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 4: down in Utah and had to stay. I can't remember

567
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 4: exactly where we were in Utah. I was driving a

568
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 4: little uh Chevy Cruise I had, and coming through Frisco.

569
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 4: One of my windshow wipers stopped working, so I had

570
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 4: to kind of stick my head. It's hard to snow.

571
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 4: It was in May, but it was snowing going up

572
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 4: the mountains, and.

573
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: Thought being a lawyer was supposed to be a lot.

574
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: Transfer broke down the turtle.

575
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I broke down in Utah and somebody came

576
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 4: gave me a lyft tow truck driver and I'm sitting

577
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 4: there now in the tow truck with me and me

578
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 4: and Clyde and uh and then uh yeah, we we

579
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 4: stayed at a hotel for the night, got the car

580
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 4: fixed up, back on my way, made it to Vegas,

581
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 4: and reunited Bonnie and Clyde.

582
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 3: So I tow truck drivers. Like, let me tell you

583
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 3: about people from another podcast.

584
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 1: Right now, this guy with the turtle. Yeah, this bitch

585
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 1: gets out he's got a turtle. Yeah, that's right.

586
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 6: He claims to me that he's reuniting the turtle.

587
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 4: True story. I got photos.

588
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 2: But yeah, uh so then that's my wildlife adventures.

589
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 4: I transported a turtle across the country. But yeah, so

590
00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 4: then I was in Vegas. I was clerking for a judge.

591
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 4: There After I finished doing that, I worked for a

592
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 4: firm called Holland and Hart did that for a couple

593
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 4: of years, and then when my wife and I were

594
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 4: planning our to have a kid, we were like, well,

595
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 4: we don't we want to move back closer to some family,

596
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 4: and so we decided to go back closer to her

597
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 4: family and Casper, and we moved. It was like the

598
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 4: first week of March twenty twenty, really interesting time in

599
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 4: the world. And yeah, we moved to Casper and I've

600
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 4: been there ever since. But that you guys work at

601
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 4: different firms, different firms. Yeah, she still works for the

602
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 4: firms based in Vegas, her firm, and it has offices

603
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 4: in California and Colorado.

604
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 2: And then my firm is basically me. So what's it

605
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 2: called Fuller and Samarad?

606
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: Who's Fuller?

607
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 4: Don Fuller is my law partner.

608
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, yeah, all right, So now you can do

609
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 1: one or two things up to you, sure lawyer's choice.

610
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 1: You either explain how this how this whole thing came

611
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 1: to you or you explain what it is. But whatever order,

612
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: both those things are gonna need to happen. Obviously, I'm

613
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 1: just putting you in my shoes as an interviewer. Yeah, sure,

614
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 1: Like I need to get that covered.

615
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 4: I'll try to help you out. I'll try to help

616
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 4: you out. I can do it, you can, you know,

617
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:15,720
Speaker 4: I'll I'll tell you how it came to me, because

618
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 4: that's probably the best way for me to explain it,

619
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 4: because again, I don't know nothing about nothing. Checkerboard was

620
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 4: a you know, it's where you played chess, the door checkers.

621
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 4: I guess it's that's that's really That's really all I

622
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:33,320
Speaker 4: knew about it. So, uh, yeah, it was November December

623
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,760
Speaker 4: of twenty one and I got a call from another

624
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,879
Speaker 4: attorney in town who said, hey, uh, one of those

625
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 4: corner hoppers needs another attorney and you want to do it.

626
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 4: And I said to myself, what, what the fuck is

627
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 4: corner hopping? What do you what are you talking? I mean,

628
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 4: I didn't care. I'll take case. I mean, I don't

629
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 4: know what that is, but sure he seemed there was

630
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 4: a lot of employed in that statement, like like I

631
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 4: would know what that was, and I'd be really, yeah, I.

632
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 2: Was gonna ask, like, is that something lawyers and Casper

633
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 2: kind of I don't want to touch.

634
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 1: Well, well, no, why didn't he want it?

635
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 4: So no, he he did. He represented one of the hunters,

636
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 4: but so So in a criminal case, generally speaking, you

637
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 4: don't want to have one attorney representing multiple people because hey,

638
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 4: what if somebody wants to snitch? You know, that kind

639
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 4: of puts you in a bad spider. Where do you

640
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 4: guys use snitch? We call it proffering. Yeah, in the business,

641
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 4: you'd say, my client's interested in proffering. God, that's the

642
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 4: other side's kind.

643
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:41,399
Speaker 1: So who is it? So if you have a gang

644
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 1: of criminals, this is way off subject.

645
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 4: Yeah.

646
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 1: Sure, let's say you have a gang of just reg

647
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:51,879
Speaker 1: old bank robbers. Sure, they know they don't want all

648
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 1: one lawyer, Like, who doesn't want them to all have

649
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:55,280
Speaker 1: one lawyer?

650
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 4: Well, the state bar says that we are not we're conflicted,

651
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 4: you know if I have an interest? Yeah yeah, But.

652
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 1: It's not a defense strategy, it's just a it's just

653
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 1: a practice that's generally.

654
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 4: Kind of both ways because it does put you in

655
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 4: a bad spot if if you were to represent everybody,

656
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 4: unless everybody's going to agree, you know, it's all for one,

657
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 4: one for all, and we're not gonna cross swords. But

658
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 4: you just you know, it's really hard to put yourself

659
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 4: in that position where yours everybody Yeah, yeah, yeah, So

660
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 4: I got this call, mainly because there were four of them,

661
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 4: and you know one I think at that point two

662
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 4: of the four already had attorneys, and so I said, sure,

663
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 4: I'll jump in on one of them, though I knew

664
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 4: nothing about it.

665
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 1: I not gonna turn down business.

666
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it was a good friend of mine, so

667
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 4: I was like, yeah, absolutely, I'll help for sure a report. Yeah, yeah,

668
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 4: for sure, for sure. So I jumped in and one

669
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 4: of the first things I did is call I mean,

670
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 4: you know, I got friends in Wyoming who hunt, so

671
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 4: you know, I can talk to them about things, and

672
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 4: they they know quite a bit about some stuff.

673
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 1: You're like, yes, Ryan, the guy with the turtle, Yeah,

674
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 1: that's right, Hey, I got I gotta I got a

675
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 1: question for you.

676
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 4: So so I call a buddy actually, and I asked him.

677
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 4: I was like, what what is corner crossing? What is

678
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 4: what is? What am I looking at here? And the

679
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 4: way he kind of explained it to me is like

680
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 4: kind of a little bigger than just corner crossing specifically,

681
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 4: but about access and how it used to be and

682
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 4: if if you wanted to hunt somewhere but you knew

683
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 4: that there was some private land or there was a

684
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 4: ranch or whatever. You could go contact the owner of

685
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 4: that property or whoever's at the ranch manager say look, hey,

686
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 4: I want to go hunt over there. Are you okay

687
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 4: with it? Or hey, would you like me to help

688
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 4: you out on the ranch a little bit in exchange

689
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 4: if you'll let me go there. But there's been this

690
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,720
Speaker 4: big dramatic shift and kind of pay to play that. Okay,

691
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 4: you're either going to use our outfitter outfitter and pay

692
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:56,799
Speaker 4: for it to get there, or you're not going at all,

693
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 4: or there's no communication whatsoever. And that's kind of the

694
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 4: broader picture of just it used to be, Oh, I

695
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 4: want to go over there because I'm going to go

696
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:09,879
Speaker 4: hunt or whatever it is I want to do, and

697
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 4: that door has been closed. And corner crossing is just

698
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 4: like a subspecies of that whole problem, and it's and

699
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 4: it has more to do with this unique land pattern,

700
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 4: the checkerboard, which is alternating public in private square mile chunks.

701
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 4: You know, looks like a checkerboard, and where the public

702
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 4: and public share a corner with the private and private,

703
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 4: there's this philosophical, moral, legal question of whether or not

704
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 4: a person can go from that public square to the

705
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:43,800
Speaker 4: other public square that would be your corner cross.

706
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 1: I like that you just put it as philosophical, moral

707
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 1: and legal. Yeah, I don't know that.

708
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 3: Okay, I mean I know the answer, but oh yeah,

709
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 3: what was the answer?

710
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 4: Cal can you?

711
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 3: Of course you can't walking in public.

712
00:38:58,200 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 1: Plan like my issue.

713
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 4: I don't know.

714
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:07,479
Speaker 1: Philosophical, yes, legal, yes, I just haven't found a looking

715
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 1: at it at both sides, I haven't found a moral component.

716
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,240
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, so I guess the way that I always

717
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 4: but I.

718
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 1: Don't want to derail yourself.

719
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 4: No no, no, no, no, no no no. I mean

720
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 4: when I think about this access generally or private property generally,

721
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 4: I mean, first of all, by the way, I also

722
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 4: did not like property law in law school. I thought

723
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 4: it was really dry and I don't know find and

724
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,840
Speaker 4: here I find myself with the hunters and the property loss.

725
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 4: But that what I say moral. I think property law

726
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 4: is always going to be kind of a moral choice

727
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 4: because it's both the most arbitrary kind of law we have,

728
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,320
Speaker 4: because it's just imaginary lines drawn out in the world.

729
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 4: But it's also the thing that you know, we kill

730
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 4: the most people over. I mean, wars are always about property,

731
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 4: and I've always been And so when there's a question

732
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:03,399
Speaker 4: of Okay, can I cross this corner? Sure, there's there's

733
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:07,359
Speaker 4: there's legal, and there's the philosophical side of you know,

734
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 4: what does it all mean? But from a moral perspective

735
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 4: of well, when it is ambiguous, or at least it

736
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,879
Speaker 4: used to be, or it's getting less ambiguous. But when

737
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 4: it was ambiguous, am I doing something that is offending

738
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,360
Speaker 4: the private property owner in a fundamental way? Am I

739
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 4: harming them? I damaging them? Am I going to do that?

740
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:29,800
Speaker 4: You know? Am I going to be that kind of person?

741
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,919
Speaker 4: Am I going to cross that rubicon? And I think

742
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 4: that that And then with the whole criminal side, I mean,

743
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 4: the whole criminal the difference between criminal and civil is

744
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 4: supposed to be. The criminal stuff is moral judgments we

745
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 4: make as a society and we're punishing you for it,

746
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 4: and civil is supposed to not have that necessary, necessarily,

747
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 4: that component to it. So that's kind of the way

748
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 4: I looked at it.

749
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:58,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, whatever, it's all that. Yeah, Yeah, I give It's.

750
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 5: Like he's a good lawyer, he's got a strong argument.

751
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:05,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, she's going to law Yeah.

752
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 2: Well yeah, So so you have that kind of basic situation.

753
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 4: If you want to know more about the history of

754
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 4: the check reboard or whatever. I'm happy to tell you.

755
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 4: But the way it really erupted in this instance is

756
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 4: these three, originally two Missouri hunters, were hunting elsewhere in

757
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 4: Wyoming in twenty nineteen and passed through Carbon County near

758
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 4: Elk Mountain. And I have to say it because I

759
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 4: just love the phrase. And Phil Yeoman's my client in

760
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 4: the criminal case, said it in his deposition in the

761
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:39,359
Speaker 4: civil case. You know why what attracted you about Elk

762
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 4: Mountain that area? And he said it, and his deposition

763
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 4: is great, looked Elkie. That's what he said. He said that,

764
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 4: and we all left. Yeah, yeah, established this fact, that's

765
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 4: what he said.

766
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 1: Objection, Yeah, I found the bunch grass load.

767
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 4: To be And so they just looked around, no one

768
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:09,479
Speaker 4: was there, and thought it looked Elki and they were like, well,

769
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 4: we got to figure this out. So they go home

770
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 4: and they apply for a tag and it's going to

771
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 4: be at In twenty twenty, it was Phil Yeoman's, Brad

772
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 4: Cape and Zach Smith, those three guys alone, and they

773
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 4: went out and they hunted that area and they did

774
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 4: some research beforehand, and their research said to them, well,

775
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 4: they've got to have access because there's some federal law

776
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 4: and federal guidance out there that says you can't obstruct

777
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,319
Speaker 4: access to public land. Just can't do it. And so

778
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 4: their perspective was, we can't. We should. If you can't

779
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 4: stop me, then I should be able to do it.

780
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:53,720
Speaker 4: They get out there and they arrive at in its corner.

781
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,720
Speaker 4: It's checkerboarded right in that area, right on Elk Mountain,

782
00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 4: right off Rattlesnake pass Road is where they went. Section fourteen.

783
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 4: Section twenty four is kind of the that's the primary

784
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 4: access point to the southeast portion facing southeast of Elk Mountain.

785
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 4: And they approach the corner and at the very first

786
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 4: corner there are two T posts and they're about a

787
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 4: foot away from each other. And the T posts.

788
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:22,360
Speaker 1: Did you know what a T post was before this?

789
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 4: Nope, no idea, no idea what a TE post was.

790
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:28,760
Speaker 4: The answer is gonna be no to most of this stuff.

791
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 4: So stuff that I've learned.

792
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 1: Education.

793
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's been an educational thing. Two T posts, two

794
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,399
Speaker 4: tposts have no trespassing signs on them with a phone

795
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 4: number and Elk Mountain Ranch that's what it says. And

796
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 4: they're connected by chains and the chains are locked together,

797
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 4: So it's this kind of I always looked at it.

798
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 4: It's kind of you get to the front door of

799
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,720
Speaker 4: a club and the bouncer has that velvet little rope,

800
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 4: so it's kind of let you in, let you not in.

801
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 4: That's kind of what it looked like to me. That's

802
00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 4: how I always visualized it is. That's just real weird,

803
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:01,719
Speaker 4: so strange out in the middle of nowhere, so there's

804
00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:05,799
Speaker 4: nothing else around it. And so they knew they had

805
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:07,839
Speaker 4: to get past that to keep hunting on public land,

806
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 4: and so they each individually just grabbed onto the one

807
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 4: t posts and swung their body from the one square

808
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:16,760
Speaker 4: of public land to the next square public land without

809
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 4: touching the private on either side, and went on their business.

810
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 4: And then they used on X their eyes and located

811
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 4: the rest of the actual us OR survey stakes at

812
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:32,760
Speaker 4: each corner and just crossed over those corners to proceed

813
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 4: onward hunted. And it was a pretty successful hunt because

814
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 4: they're kind of by themselves, no one else out there.

815
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:43,800
Speaker 4: But you know, trouble came knocking because the ranch manager

816
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:48,479
Speaker 4: found them. They were actually field dressing one other elk.

817
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 4: I think they only hunted elk that year and we

818
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,760
Speaker 4: have an audio recording of it. Actually we got through discovery.

819
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 3: Do you have to say, can you explain field dress?

820
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 4: Look, I'm using the term I don't even think I

821
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 4: still know what So if it sounds clunky, that's it's

822
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 4: like I'm speaking Germany for the first But yeah, so

823
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 4: that we have an audio recording of it, and ranch

824
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 4: manager approaches him basically says, like what he made.

825
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 1: The audio recording Zach Smith, Yeah, just.

826
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:24,360
Speaker 3: Because he had a feeling like this wasn't going to

827
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 3: be a pleasant thing.

828
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:25,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

829
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah.

830
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:31,240
Speaker 1: So if someone makes an audio recording, it usually carries

831
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 1: with it, uh that they feel they're in the.

832
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:37,799
Speaker 4: Right and and you can it's pretty emphatic on the

833
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 4: recording too, because they they say just as much to it.

834
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 4: Was Steve Grendi, the ranch manager for Elk Mountain Ranch, that, uh,

835
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 4: they everything they've read says that they're doing the right thing.

836
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 4: And they explained to them exactly what they had been doing.

837
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 4: And and they were on a section of public land

838
00:45:56,160 --> 00:46:00,919
Speaker 4: at that time during that initial interaction, and and so

839
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 4: he basically says, you it's it's illegal to corner across.

840
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:06,880
Speaker 4: You can't do it. I'm gonna have to report you

841
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 4: to the authorities and so forth. So that after that,

842
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 4: Steve Grandy and others at Elk Mountain contact the Carbon

843
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 4: County Sheriff's office several times trying to get them to

844
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 4: issue citations or in fact, according to the owner of

845
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:28,320
Speaker 4: the property, arrest these guys and rip them off the mountain.

846
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:30,839
Speaker 1: He wanted Kaufman stuff them.

847
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 4: He did. We had say that's exactly what he wanted,

848
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:41,320
Speaker 4: and that did not happen. The Sheriff's deputy did interact

849
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 4: with the with Brad, Phil and Zach. They had an

850
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 4: in person conversation about what had happened. No citations were issued.

851
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 4: They basically said, yeah, you're good to go, man, We

852
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 4: appreciate you telling us what happened. That was it and

853
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:56,319
Speaker 4: that was the end of twenty twenty. Nothing else but

854
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:58,799
Speaker 4: the primary thing, and I skipped over this, but the

855
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 4: primary thing that Steve said is the fact that you

856
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 4: touch that te post, that's a trespass. You touch that

857
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 4: tea post, you make contact with our property, that's that's

858
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:11,440
Speaker 4: your trespass. So that's stuck in their head like, well

859
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 4: that's a problem, that's his big problem. We'll solve that.

860
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 4: Because you see Brad is a fence builder by trade.

861
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 1: So he that's one of my favorite details.

862
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:22,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, so he is.

863
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:25,359
Speaker 1: My favorite details of this whole thing is he's in

864
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:26,280
Speaker 1: the fencing business.

865
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, so he so he builds Fancy's plants, a

866
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 4: tea post. He knows how this work. He knows exactly

867
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 4: how high a tea post is.

868
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 1: This is a movie, like, oh right.

869
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:37,759
Speaker 6: It's like a heist movie where they get all the

870
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:40,880
Speaker 6: all the guy specialized skills together.

871
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:41,799
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

872
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:44,359
Speaker 3: Can you imagine like the Great Wall of China, right,

873
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 3: and like the Mongol Horde coming up to the edge

874
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 3: and one guy in the hoard being like, you know

875
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 3: why that doesn't intimidate me? Wall builder by trade?

876
00:47:54,880 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah. So so to to Brad, he's like, well

877
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 4: that's solvable. Gets home and he says, I'm gonna I'm

878
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 4: gonna fabricate an a frame ladder that's sized to a

879
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:12,839
Speaker 4: T post so that when we get there, we'll do

880
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 4: the same deal, but we won't touch the T posts

881
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:17,840
Speaker 4: or the chain because that seems to be the problem.

882
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 4: And we want to go back because it's Elkie and

883
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 4: it's fun hunting and there's no one else there and

884
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:29,279
Speaker 4: lots of public land, so they go home. There's no

885
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:33,320
Speaker 4: criminal activity afoot. That just that weird interaction with Steve

886
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 4: and the conversation. They have the sheriff's office and.

887
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 1: I can I ask quick questions? Yeah, when the sheriff

888
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 1: comes out and he susses everything out and they leave

889
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 1: it that that okay, You're cool. Uh. The ranch manager

890
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 1: does not act. He is not an agreement.

891
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 4: Well, he was very upset that that time around.

892
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 1: He was upset that he wasn't like, oh, thanks for

893
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 1: the clarification, My bad.

894
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 4: No, he was not thanks for the clarification. In fact,

895
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 4: what he told us later in the case is that

896
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:15,720
Speaker 4: he was under the impression that something was going to happen,

897
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:19,840
Speaker 4: that the sheriff's office was going to issue citations or

898
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,439
Speaker 4: do something later. But they were gone, the hunt was over,

899
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,279
Speaker 4: and he was kind of over it for the time being.

900
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 1: He felt that they would follow up.

901
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:32,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was his perspective. So twenty one

902
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 4: comes around, Brad fabricates his ladder. They continue to do

903
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:40,319
Speaker 4: their homework and nothing has changed. They the law side

904
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:42,960
Speaker 4: of it, They think everything is exactly the same as

905
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 4: it was in twenty twenty. Were still good to go.

906
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 4: We had that interaction with the sheriff. Certainly if we

907
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:50,399
Speaker 4: had done something wrong, the sheriff would have cited us.

908
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:51,840
Speaker 4: I mean we talked to him, he had all of

909
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:55,799
Speaker 4: our contact information. Something would happen, and we knew they're

910
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:58,359
Speaker 4: The big issue with Grendee was touching the tea posts

911
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 4: will build the ladder. They go back, they get tags,

912
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:03,120
Speaker 4: and they go back to hunting twenty one and they

913
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 4: bring a fourth person this time, and as John Slowinsky

914
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 4: and I'm telling you, you say the cinematic quality of this thing.

915
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:13,760
Speaker 4: So he got Brad the fence builder. Zack Smith works

916
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 4: for Brad building fences. Phil Yeomans, if I get this right,

917
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 4: I believe is married to Brad's sister, or maybe John's

918
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:28,880
Speaker 4: married to Brad's sister. John Slewinsky is a director of

919
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 4: a band out of high school. So you know, this

920
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:34,319
Speaker 4: is the motley crew of dangerous thugs we're dealing with

921
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 4: here is you know, John the band director, fence builder,

922
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 4: his employee, and then Phil Yeomans, who dy or he

923
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:47,800
Speaker 4: repairs delivery trucks for a chip company, Freedo La or

924
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 4: something like that. This is the crew. They come back

925
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 4: out in the fall twenty one, same story, but they

926
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:58,880
Speaker 4: got the ladder. So they walk up to the first corner,

927
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:05,280
Speaker 4: they their ladder with the legs of the ladder public public, public, public,

928
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:08,839
Speaker 4: and right over that chain. And they just walk up

929
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:11,920
Speaker 4: and down right over the chain and proceed exactly the

930
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:16,240
Speaker 4: same as they did it in twenty same story, except

931
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 4: this time Steve Grundian Company are even more angry and

932
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:26,440
Speaker 4: they're following them. In fact, the evidence that we collected

933
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 4: showed that Steve and Company or other Elk Mountain employees

934
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:35,320
Speaker 4: were kind of chasing off the animals, driving their trucks

935
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 4: and side by sides at animals and kind of scaring

936
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:41,320
Speaker 4: them off, following them around.

937
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 1: Can I interject that absolutely, just for listener's sake. Yeah,

938
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:50,800
Speaker 1: the ranch manager, acting as a representative of the ranch,

939
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:57,879
Speaker 1: they are they have been under the assumption and have

940
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:03,360
Speaker 1: been enjoying exclusive access to this public land which is

941
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:05,800
Speaker 1: protected by this corner that they feel as a barrier

942
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 1: to entry. So you have a landowner owns and pays

943
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:17,320
Speaker 1: taxes on surrounding ground, and because of his surrounding ground's

944
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 1: proximity to these pieces of public land, and because of

945
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 1: this corner that they view can't be crossed, they enjoy

946
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 1: exclusive access to the point where if this ranch was

947
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 1: transacting on the public market as it had in the past,

948
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:41,319
Speaker 1: it would be pointed out in the listing that not

949
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:45,280
Speaker 1: only are you buying x acres, you're getting a lot

950
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 1: of bonus land that only you can use. So there's

951
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 1: a lot. There's a lot to defend here from the

952
00:52:54,640 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 1: position of the landowner is defending a side chunk of

953
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 1: ground that they had assumed was for all intents and

954
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 1: purposes theirs.

955
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:11,480
Speaker 3: But I think there's another right argument out there of

956
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 3: whether or not you should give them the benefit of

957
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 3: the doubt that they are operating under that assumption.

958
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:20,359
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, okay, yeah, so all right, that's great, that's

959
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:22,440
Speaker 1: a very good point, and we should have chosen to

960
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:29,840
Speaker 1: work more carefully because it could be that they recognize

961
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:33,359
Speaker 1: that they don't quite but it would be nice if

962
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 1: they did. And therefore, defending this vulnerability is of utmost

963
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 1: importance because this whole house of cards could collapse.

964
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:46,880
Speaker 3: How we misture ourselves could have.

965
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:52,279
Speaker 1: Ramifications, meaning it could ben You know, we got a problem.

966
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:57,520
Speaker 1: Our assumption about our day facto ownership of this ground

967
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 1: is tenuous. It's it's the laws rather arbitrary. We paid

968
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:07,680
Speaker 1: a good chunk of money thinking that it was right.

969
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:09,279
Speaker 1: But the more I look into this, this is a

970
00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:13,120
Speaker 1: real vulnerability and something we ought to be paying attention to,

971
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:15,400
Speaker 1: and we should play our and we should handle our

972
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 1: you know, play our cards in an effective fashion here

973
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:20,919
Speaker 1: because this is this is not good.

974
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:23,239
Speaker 2: I mean, they went so far as to say this

975
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:25,200
Speaker 2: would affect the value of the property.

976
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:27,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's real important to get to that later.

977
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:31,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely. And it's funny. There was a

978
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 4: company called the Chickering Company that had the property listing

979
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:37,360
Speaker 4: for Elk Mountain Ranch and we we've saved it elsewhere,

980
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 4: but I just threw it up in my computer.

981
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:40,799
Speaker 2: See if I could pull up the listing, and they've

982
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 2: taken that listing down, so that listing's gone, which is fun.

983
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:48,360
Speaker 1: But the listing pointed out yes, yeah, so the purchaser,

984
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:53,399
Speaker 1: if the purchaser, say, say an individual such as yourself,

985
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:56,439
Speaker 1: not schooled in these issues, a purchaser might have looked

986
00:54:56,480 --> 00:54:59,279
Speaker 1: and been like sweet, yeah, without really having a deep

987
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:00,400
Speaker 1: history in this whole argument.

988
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 6: And in their mind they paid for that, yeah, absolutely,

989
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 6: so they in their mind they have a property right yeah.

990
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:09,279
Speaker 4: And and in fact, that's that's what came out later

991
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:14,120
Speaker 4: in the case, when we were deposing doctor Fred Ashman,

992
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:17,239
Speaker 4: who's the owner of the holding company that owns the

993
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:20,719
Speaker 4: property itself, he said when he purchased the property, he

994
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:23,799
Speaker 4: was under the impression that nobody could corner cross, and

995
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:26,880
Speaker 4: so he didn't finish the sentence with and so I

996
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:32,239
Speaker 4: had exclusive access to everything. But obviously that's the implication.

997
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:34,920
Speaker 4: If if no one can corner cross, which is the

998
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:39,960
Speaker 4: only way on foot you could access that land, then

999
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 4: there is no foot travel access at all on Elk Mountain, period,

1000
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 4: which is checkerboarded to wazoo. So yeah, no, that's one

1001
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:52,400
Speaker 4: hundred percent, that's and that is it. I mean, we

1002
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:54,840
Speaker 4: always called it the first corner. Section fourteen and twenty

1003
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:58,239
Speaker 4: four is the first corner. It is the prime mover

1004
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:00,839
Speaker 4: if that is unlocked. And that's the only place they

1005
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 4: put this t post chain no trespass signs because they

1006
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:07,399
Speaker 4: I mean it tascit acknowledgment. If that's blocked, you don't

1007
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:09,799
Speaker 4: need to block anything else. You can't cross there, you

1008
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:13,719
Speaker 4: can't get to anywhere else, period. And there just so

1009
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 4: happens to be a public road that runs through section fourteen.

1010
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:19,919
Speaker 4: So if you can drive on that public road, park

1011
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:22,880
Speaker 4: your truck, walk off the public road right to that corner,

1012
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:25,839
Speaker 4: and cross that corner. Then yeah, you've got the keys

1013
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:29,279
Speaker 4: to the castle. You can go to all that public land.

1014
00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:32,200
Speaker 4: And that's what these guys did, both in twenty and

1015
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:34,600
Speaker 4: twenty one, and then twenty one obviously just led to

1016
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 4: this because twenty one is when, after much cajoling, the

1017
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:45,880
Speaker 4: Carbon County District Attorney's office gave instructions to the Carbon

1018
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:49,880
Speaker 4: County Sheriff's office, you will go cite those four hunters

1019
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:50,680
Speaker 4: for trespass.

1020
00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 3: And how often does something like that happen that the

1021
00:56:57,840 --> 00:57:02,720
Speaker 3: DA district attorney has to call a law enforcement officer

1022
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:05,640
Speaker 3: to tell them to issue a citation.

1023
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:08,880
Speaker 1: Man, I got a friend who is a DA in

1024
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:13,040
Speaker 1: a county different state, But yeah, neighboring state would love

1025
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:14,040
Speaker 1: to ask them that question.

1026
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 2: Well, that law enforcement officer had already told them, I'm

1027
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:21,160
Speaker 2: not I'm not going to cite.

1028
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:24,200
Speaker 4: You, right. Yeah, So it's and this is I asked

1029
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:27,520
Speaker 4: the question earlier about that agency you guys were talking

1030
00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:30,800
Speaker 4: about down in Colorado or Washington, and and and I

1031
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:32,840
Speaker 4: think you know this is this is the interesting thing

1032
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:37,800
Speaker 4: is that so in Wyoming game and Fish, they're the

1033
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:42,160
Speaker 4: those individuals and officers can deal with anything under Title three,

1034
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:44,200
Speaker 4: which has to do with game, fish hunting and all

1035
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:47,480
Speaker 4: that which would be trespassed to hunt. That is, they

1036
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:50,360
Speaker 4: have jurisdiction to issue that citation. But when it comes

1037
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:53,360
Speaker 4: to regular ole criminal trespass that is not that's under

1038
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:56,200
Speaker 4: Title six. It's a regular crime, and so game and

1039
00:57:56,240 --> 00:57:58,960
Speaker 4: fish can issue that citation. They can only issue the

1040
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:01,160
Speaker 4: other one. So it would have to be the sheriff.

1041
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:05,920
Speaker 4: But for whatever reason surrounding this corner crossing issue, unlike

1042
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:08,080
Speaker 4: a speeding ticket or if you got a bag of

1043
00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:10,920
Speaker 4: meth in your pocket, when it comes to corner crossing,

1044
00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:14,040
Speaker 4: the sheriff doesn't just cite you and arrest here whatever.

1045
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 4: They got a write a report, send it to the

1046
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:19,880
Speaker 4: district attorney, and the district attorney has to think on

1047
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:22,120
Speaker 4: it and then give them the thumbs up or thumbs down.

1048
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:22,720
Speaker 1: Got it.

1049
00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 4: I don't know why that's the methodology, but that's apparently

1050
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 4: what they say they need to do in this instance.

1051
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 4: Very abnormal for sure, and so yeah that ultimately after

1052
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:37,520
Speaker 4: they go hunting in twenty one.

1053
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:42,920
Speaker 3: Sorry, I gotta pause right now, regular old game warden

1054
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:47,480
Speaker 3: sitting there on a county road in plane view, which

1055
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:49,880
Speaker 3: is a term where you learned yesterday from a game

1056
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:54,240
Speaker 3: organ from game warden watches somebody who does not appear

1057
00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:58,560
Speaker 3: to be hunting get off of that same county road

1058
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:02,960
Speaker 3: and walk through somebody's property that is posted with no

1059
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:08,000
Speaker 3: trespassing signs. That officer of the law doesn't have to

1060
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:13,640
Speaker 3: act on anything there because it's not within their realm

1061
00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:15,200
Speaker 3: of things they can act on.

1062
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:16,080
Speaker 8: Yeah.

1063
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:22,320
Speaker 3: So, but a sheriff, which witnesses the same thing has

1064
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:28,920
Speaker 3: to write a report, go leave that scene, go to

1065
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:33,560
Speaker 3: the district attorney, say hey, I just witnessed this. Let

1066
00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:36,120
Speaker 3: me know whenever you get around to what we should

1067
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:39,720
Speaker 3: do about that thing that may or may not be trespassing.

1068
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:41,840
Speaker 3: And that's how the law in Wyoming works.

1069
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 4: You know. I'll tell you that there's always the law

1070
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:48,720
Speaker 4: on the law. There's the law that's on the paper,

1071
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:50,080
Speaker 4: and then there's the law on the way it goes.

1072
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:52,320
Speaker 4: And I'll tell you the way that it would go.

1073
00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:56,040
Speaker 4: If a game warden saw someone just trotting through someone's

1074
00:59:56,080 --> 00:59:59,000
Speaker 4: private field, they would probably stop them and do something,

1075
00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:02,000
Speaker 4: and I would imagine they would find a way to

1076
01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:07,560
Speaker 4: issue some citation. But again, just the way you know,

1077
01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:10,840
Speaker 4: things are selective. There's discretion in everything, and for whatever reason,

1078
01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:14,280
Speaker 4: when it comes to corner crossing, there is this selectivity

1079
01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:19,120
Speaker 4: that the game Warden's not gonna do anything. The sheriff's

1080
01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:21,120
Speaker 4: deputy is going to write a report and leave it

1081
01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:21,640
Speaker 4: to the d A.

1082
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:25,360
Speaker 2: Well, I mean specific, it's got to be because there's

1083
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:29,680
Speaker 2: no law that clearly states whether it's legal or illegal.

1084
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:31,320
Speaker 4: Right, that's right, there.

1085
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 9: Is and that's that's like the biggest I want you

1086
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:37,520
Speaker 9: to keep going and keep cranking along, but that's the

1087
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:42,440
Speaker 9: biggest thing in my uh, in my view on this

1088
01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:46,280
Speaker 9: thing is like the lingering arbitrariness or not even arbitrary.

1089
01:00:46,320 --> 01:00:50,160
Speaker 1: The lingering question, like what you're talking about, has a

1090
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:52,480
Speaker 1: stem from the fact of I don't know is the

1091
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:55,600
Speaker 1: guy gonna is the is the is the DA gonna

1092
01:00:56,480 --> 01:00:57,440
Speaker 1: feel like doing this?

1093
01:00:58,200 --> 01:00:58,480
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1094
01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:01,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, And I'm not gonna him all these citations

1095
01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:02,800
Speaker 1: if he's going to be like, man, I'm not waiting

1096
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:03,160
Speaker 1: into that.

1097
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:07,360
Speaker 4: And I'll tell you from my conversations with county county

1098
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:10,840
Speaker 4: attorneys across the state of Wyoming, it very very few

1099
01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:14,480
Speaker 4: have any interest whatsoever in citing anyone for corner crossing.

1100
01:01:15,040 --> 01:01:16,960
Speaker 4: In fact, i've had at least four or five and

1101
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:19,520
Speaker 4: three counties and including one who used to work in

1102
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:23,600
Speaker 4: carbon counties. Not there anymore. Tell me, under no circumstances,

1103
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:25,560
Speaker 4: what I cite for or would I tell anyone to

1104
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:27,520
Speaker 4: be cited for that, let alone prosecuted to trial.

1105
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:31,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, because if they know, they're just opening themselves up

1106
01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:38,200
Speaker 2: to a very confusing, like potentially like case that just

1107
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:42,680
Speaker 2: drags on and gets muddy like this one, or they lose, yeah,

1108
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:43,800
Speaker 2: like this one.

1109
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:55,760
Speaker 4: Right, And I do want to kind of move past

1110
01:01:55,800 --> 01:02:00,080
Speaker 4: the criminal case because that that's the saga, that's the

1111
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:01,920
Speaker 4: the story. They went hunting again in twenty one. They

1112
01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:04,000
Speaker 4: used the latter to do their first corner cross and

1113
01:02:04,040 --> 01:02:06,320
Speaker 4: they found the other corners and they continued to cross,

1114
01:02:06,320 --> 01:02:10,280
Speaker 4: and ultimately they get cited for criminal trespass. But you

1115
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:13,400
Speaker 4: got to understand that trespass comes in many flavors and

1116
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:17,640
Speaker 4: criminal trespasses, but one I already referred to trespass to hunt.

1117
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:20,120
Speaker 4: But the big one and the thing that's going to

1118
01:02:20,160 --> 01:02:22,960
Speaker 4: maybe change some things is this civil trespass lawsuit that

1119
01:02:23,040 --> 01:02:26,560
Speaker 4: was filed as kind of a tack on to the

1120
01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:27,160
Speaker 4: criminal case.

1121
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:28,880
Speaker 1: It just real quick with the criminal case. Yeah, just

1122
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:29,440
Speaker 1: the results.

1123
01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:32,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, well the results of the criminal case.

1124
01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 4: So we took the thing to trial after much litigation beforehand,

1125
01:02:38,720 --> 01:02:41,200
Speaker 4: trying to knock that thing out and saying this is stupid,

1126
01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 4: it's not a crime, it's legal, so forth and so on.

1127
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 4: But we didn't went on that, but we went to

1128
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:49,720
Speaker 4: a jury trial. Jerry returned a verdict in just a

1129
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:51,520
Speaker 4: little under two hours, not guilty.

1130
01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:55,080
Speaker 1: How hard was jury selection? Did you throw out landowners?

1131
01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:58,640
Speaker 4: We did not throw out landowners. We did throw out

1132
01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:01,680
Speaker 4: a couple of people who had some business connections to

1133
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:06,120
Speaker 4: this landowner because they candidly were like, well, we just

1134
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:08,080
Speaker 4: don't really know how that's gonna work for us.

1135
01:03:08,720 --> 01:03:16,040
Speaker 3: If there were happened to be a fence builder. No, no,

1136
01:03:16,160 --> 01:03:19,720
Speaker 3: so we we It was jury selection hard. It It

1137
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:22,240
Speaker 3: actually was a little easier than I thought. There did

1138
01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:26,960
Speaker 3: break out some debate among the potential jurors over corner

1139
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:29,880
Speaker 3: crossing and what what we should be doing when.

1140
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:32,680
Speaker 4: You're when you're out in the world traveling, and and

1141
01:03:32,680 --> 01:03:36,160
Speaker 4: what's trespassed what's not trespass, which is very interesting. Just

1142
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:39,360
Speaker 4: was there hunters on the jury? I think yes, there

1143
01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:43,320
Speaker 4: was at the four person Foreman was a hunter. Yeah. Uh,

1144
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 4: And if I remember correctly, the four person during jury selection,

1145
01:03:47,080 --> 01:03:50,000
Speaker 4: he told this story that was something like, well, I

1146
01:03:50,200 --> 01:03:53,440
Speaker 4: was out hunting once and I was right, I was

1147
01:03:53,440 --> 01:03:57,160
Speaker 4: getting near the property line, and I but I thought

1148
01:03:57,200 --> 01:03:59,280
Speaker 4: to myself, you know, I'm gonna be really careful. I

1149
01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:00,920
Speaker 4: don't I don't want to get too close to the

1150
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:03,040
Speaker 4: property line. So I'm going to stay a good hundred

1151
01:04:03,080 --> 01:04:04,760
Speaker 4: yards from the property line. I want to even get

1152
01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:09,320
Speaker 4: near it. And my thought process was, Oh, this guy,

1153
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:13,360
Speaker 4: he might actually get it, like he understands. But I

1154
01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:17,160
Speaker 4: think the prosecution thought, oh, this guy really is going

1155
01:04:17,240 --> 01:04:22,440
Speaker 4: to be a stickler, and so I thought they were

1156
01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:24,960
Speaker 4: going to knock him out for sure. And then when

1157
01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:27,440
Speaker 4: we kept going back and forth knocking Jerors out and

1158
01:04:27,440 --> 01:04:31,840
Speaker 4: he kept sticking along, I just think, just let him stay,

1159
01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:34,320
Speaker 4: and sure enough he's our four person.

1160
01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:36,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, because you could read that as like he's overly

1161
01:04:36,720 --> 01:04:41,960
Speaker 6: deferential to private property rights, or like he knows that

1162
01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:45,240
Speaker 6: this is a mess and he wants to cover his own.

1163
01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:48,880
Speaker 4: Ass right right, yeah, yeah, or where he appreciates the

1164
01:04:48,920 --> 01:04:51,520
Speaker 4: absurdity of it, or at least the results that would

1165
01:04:51,560 --> 01:04:54,200
Speaker 4: come from, if that's really what trespass is.

1166
01:04:55,120 --> 01:04:55,440
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1167
01:04:55,480 --> 01:04:58,600
Speaker 4: So he stuck around and we got a not guilties

1168
01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:02,080
Speaker 4: on for all four guys on two different theories of trespass.

1169
01:05:02,200 --> 01:05:06,680
Speaker 4: Deliberation was all long, just under two hours, which was great.

1170
01:05:06,920 --> 01:05:11,760
Speaker 4: Zach Smith actually knocked over his water pitcher onto John

1171
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:15,760
Speaker 4: Slowinski during the verdict reading, which was great. He stood

1172
01:05:15,840 --> 01:05:17,680
Speaker 4: up and there was a water pitcher in front of him,

1173
01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:19,919
Speaker 4: knocked it and flipped it right into John.

1174
01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:21,440
Speaker 1: So do you know, do you know? Do you have

1175
01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:23,280
Speaker 1: any insight into the deliberation room.

1176
01:05:23,480 --> 01:05:26,440
Speaker 4: Nope, Jerry Jurors would not talk to anybody, wouldn't talk

1177
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:29,320
Speaker 4: to reporters, wouldn't talk to us. So no, don't know,

1178
01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:34,240
Speaker 4: don't know what went on there. And then interestingly, during

1179
01:05:34,320 --> 01:05:37,520
Speaker 4: jury's selection, three of the three guys from twenty twenty

1180
01:05:37,560 --> 01:05:41,160
Speaker 4: were issued citations by the sheriff's deputy for the twenty

1181
01:05:41,240 --> 01:05:42,560
Speaker 4: twenty hunt, like we know.

1182
01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:43,480
Speaker 5: Where those guys are.

1183
01:05:43,560 --> 01:05:46,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was. It was really bizarre because there were

1184
01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:51,080
Speaker 4: jurors in the room when the sheriff handed them citations

1185
01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:54,240
Speaker 4: up right at the beginning of trial. I don't remember

1186
01:05:54,280 --> 01:05:57,600
Speaker 4: what for the twenty twenty hunt, same thing hunt. Yeah,

1187
01:05:57,720 --> 01:06:02,120
Speaker 4: he served them with citations for during jury selection.

1188
01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:04,240
Speaker 1: But then did that trespass case get rolled into the

1189
01:06:04,240 --> 01:06:05,360
Speaker 1: same trespass case.

1190
01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:07,600
Speaker 4: No, no, no, So it was technically it was going

1191
01:06:07,680 --> 01:06:10,640
Speaker 4: to go on its own separate little track. But a

1192
01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:14,160
Speaker 4: few days after the verdict, the state elected to dismiss

1193
01:06:14,200 --> 01:06:14,880
Speaker 4: those charges.

1194
01:06:15,520 --> 01:06:17,520
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, I didn't know that.

1195
01:06:17,680 --> 01:06:18,000
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1196
01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:20,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, so we almost had to do it all over again.

1197
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:26,440
Speaker 1: So could I just record, yeah, play for the.

1198
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:30,600
Speaker 4: Next Yeah, I mean so thankfully that went away. What

1199
01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:35,520
Speaker 4: do you think the their reasoning there was for their goal?

1200
01:06:38,240 --> 01:06:43,560
Speaker 4: I think maybe they were thinking, if they got convictions

1201
01:06:43,560 --> 01:06:46,800
Speaker 4: at trial, we'd have to take a plea on that

1202
01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:50,800
Speaker 4: new set of charges or something like that. I honestly

1203
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:54,000
Speaker 4: don't know why they wouldn't just charge it or do

1204
01:06:54,040 --> 01:06:56,880
Speaker 4: it all at the same time. We in fact had

1205
01:06:56,880 --> 01:06:58,640
Speaker 4: said that early on in the case, was like, well,

1206
01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:01,480
Speaker 4: if you're you know, either either that information's coming in

1207
01:07:01,480 --> 01:07:03,400
Speaker 4: because we're dealing with it now, or it's not. They

1208
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:05,240
Speaker 4: can't talk about it at all because it's not part

1209
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:07,600
Speaker 4: of this case. It's not relevant. It's kind of a

1210
01:07:07,640 --> 01:07:13,080
Speaker 4: weird angle that took place, but it got sorted. But yeah,

1211
01:07:13,280 --> 01:07:17,200
Speaker 4: the more and the criminal case thankfully kind of ended

1212
01:07:17,640 --> 01:07:21,320
Speaker 4: that way, ended with a whimper. But In the meantime,

1213
01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:25,200
Speaker 4: in February of the same year, three months before trial

1214
01:07:25,320 --> 01:07:28,400
Speaker 4: for the criminal trial, we got an email. All the

1215
01:07:28,400 --> 01:07:31,240
Speaker 4: criminal defense attorneys got an email from this other attorney

1216
01:07:31,400 --> 01:07:35,600
Speaker 4: who I had not known before, said, Hey, I represent

1217
01:07:35,640 --> 01:07:39,680
Speaker 4: the ranch. We're suing your guys for trespass. You guys

1218
01:07:39,720 --> 01:07:42,479
Speaker 4: gonna accept service? Or do I have to go serve

1219
01:07:42,520 --> 01:07:47,040
Speaker 4: them with papers? Really it's a fun email to receive.

1220
01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:50,240
Speaker 3: For sure, I'd be like, where are you based?

1221
01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:56,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, So it was an interesting move. I was wondering

1222
01:07:56,680 --> 01:07:58,640
Speaker 4: if that was going to happen, and then it did,

1223
01:07:59,840 --> 01:08:02,320
Speaker 4: and so that kicked off this civil lawsuit.

1224
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:05,320
Speaker 2: Did that letters like state the nature of their civil

1225
01:08:05,400 --> 01:08:09,760
Speaker 2: suit or it just said we're starting a civil suit against.

1226
01:08:09,480 --> 01:08:13,000
Speaker 4: These It actually attached the complaint, which is the case

1227
01:08:13,040 --> 01:08:16,320
Speaker 4: initiating document for the civil suit. So so we saw

1228
01:08:16,400 --> 01:08:21,919
Speaker 4: what the claim was, and so we accepted service.

1229
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:24,879
Speaker 1: And ultimately you didn't know the dollar figure at that time.

1230
01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:27,720
Speaker 4: No, Nope, didn't did not know. Did not know. And

1231
01:08:27,760 --> 01:08:28,720
Speaker 4: that's an interesting.

1232
01:08:28,600 --> 01:08:29,799
Speaker 1: Curious about the dollar figure.

1233
01:08:30,280 --> 01:08:33,960
Speaker 4: Well, I was a little bit. I thought it was

1234
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:37,639
Speaker 4: silly because at least in Wyoming and in many states,

1235
01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:41,639
Speaker 4: you know, trespass can ordinarily only get you whatever damage

1236
01:08:41,680 --> 01:08:44,760
Speaker 4: was caused, or a nominal amount of damages, you know,

1237
01:08:44,840 --> 01:08:48,120
Speaker 4: if if you trespass. You know the example I use

1238
01:08:48,160 --> 01:08:50,280
Speaker 4: because something that rings true to me. He used to

1239
01:08:50,280 --> 01:08:52,280
Speaker 4: play a lot of whiffleball in my parents' backyard when

1240
01:08:52,280 --> 01:08:53,880
Speaker 4: I was a kid. And you'd hit the ball of

1241
01:08:53,920 --> 01:08:57,559
Speaker 4: the fence. Yeah yeah, and uh, you hop the fence,

1242
01:08:57,600 --> 01:08:59,439
Speaker 4: go get the whiffleball, and you're in your neighbor's yard

1243
01:08:59,479 --> 01:09:02,720
Speaker 4: for five seconds, and you grab the ball, you go back. Well,

1244
01:09:02,840 --> 01:09:06,080
Speaker 4: is that trespass technically, Yeah, he didn't ask for permission.

1245
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:10,599
Speaker 4: You're on their property. That's trespass. Is it twenty five

1246
01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:13,040
Speaker 4: percent of the value of their house worth of trespass?

1247
01:09:15,280 --> 01:09:17,400
Speaker 2: I don't think so. So the court if they were

1248
01:09:17,400 --> 01:09:18,960
Speaker 2: to sue that little kid.

1249
01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:22,680
Speaker 3: If that were true, what is happening in Steve's neighborhood.

1250
01:09:23,280 --> 01:09:31,000
Speaker 3: I mean, there'd be rich, yeah or poor, depending I'd

1251
01:09:31,040 --> 01:09:31,479
Speaker 3: be richie.

1252
01:09:31,560 --> 01:09:34,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, there'd be a lot of cross counter suits. There's

1253
01:09:34,920 --> 01:09:38,320
Speaker 1: a lot of counter suits among the various families with kids.

1254
01:09:38,400 --> 01:09:43,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, right, right, So so I just in that instance,

1255
01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:44,920
Speaker 2: you could get if you really want to sue, you

1256
01:09:44,960 --> 01:09:48,400
Speaker 2: get nominal damages, which is it's always some ten dollars,

1257
01:09:48,479 --> 01:09:50,280
Speaker 2: twenty dollars, fifty dollars whatever.

1258
01:09:51,439 --> 01:09:53,000
Speaker 4: That's the way I looked at it. But I cared

1259
01:09:53,040 --> 01:09:56,200
Speaker 4: about the value because I wanted to take the case

1260
01:09:56,200 --> 01:09:59,559
Speaker 4: to federal court because they had followed their case in

1261
01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:03,800
Speaker 4: state cour and I was really keen on, no, if

1262
01:10:03,840 --> 01:10:05,360
Speaker 4: we're going to do this, let's get an answer and

1263
01:10:05,400 --> 01:10:06,920
Speaker 4: let's get a real answer. So I wanted to go

1264
01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:12,280
Speaker 4: to federal court. So I told the guys, look, this

1265
01:10:12,360 --> 01:10:13,880
Speaker 4: is my theory, this is the way I want I

1266
01:10:13,880 --> 01:10:17,920
Speaker 4: think we should do this. And so it all kind

1267
01:10:17,960 --> 01:10:19,360
Speaker 4: of shook out that the guys were like, all right,

1268
01:10:19,400 --> 01:10:21,559
Speaker 4: we're gonna use you do the civil case for us,

1269
01:10:21,680 --> 01:10:24,000
Speaker 4: like we all four because I can do all four

1270
01:10:24,040 --> 01:10:26,000
Speaker 4: of them in a civil case. So they were like, yeah,

1271
01:10:26,040 --> 01:10:29,639
Speaker 4: you do the civil case. And so the very first

1272
01:10:29,640 --> 01:10:32,600
Speaker 4: thing we did was we removed that's the word for it.

1273
01:10:32,640 --> 01:10:35,479
Speaker 4: We removed the case from state court to federal court.

1274
01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:39,280
Speaker 4: And the reason the dollar figure mattered is because there

1275
01:10:39,280 --> 01:10:41,360
Speaker 4: were two grounds that we raised to try to get

1276
01:10:41,400 --> 01:10:44,240
Speaker 4: that thing into federal court because federal courts have limited jurisdiction.

1277
01:10:45,160 --> 01:10:46,920
Speaker 4: And the one ground we said that we were a

1278
01:10:46,960 --> 01:10:50,519
Speaker 4: little more confident on was we're citizens of different states.

1279
01:10:50,560 --> 01:10:57,800
Speaker 4: This isn't it's a Wyoming company and we are Missouri residents. Well,

1280
01:10:57,920 --> 01:11:01,000
Speaker 4: technically it's got North Carolina City and ship that company.

1281
01:11:01,000 --> 01:11:04,400
Speaker 4: Because it's an LLC, it doesn't matter, boring, but it's

1282
01:11:04,439 --> 01:11:07,920
Speaker 4: a different state. But we also need to satisfy the

1283
01:11:07,960 --> 01:11:10,360
Speaker 4: amount in controversy needs to be more than seventy five

1284
01:11:10,400 --> 01:11:14,400
Speaker 4: thousand dollars. We need to affirmatively show that. So we

1285
01:11:14,479 --> 01:11:18,320
Speaker 4: put in our notice, look this thing, and we cited

1286
01:11:18,360 --> 01:11:21,719
Speaker 4: the property listing this property is worth all this money.

1287
01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:24,439
Speaker 4: And they're claiming, and they claimed and their complaint that

1288
01:11:24,439 --> 01:11:27,439
Speaker 4: we clouded the title to their property by corner crossing.

1289
01:11:28,040 --> 01:11:31,360
Speaker 4: So we argued, look, if they're saying that we're affecting

1290
01:11:31,479 --> 01:11:35,160
Speaker 4: the marketability of this sixteen point twenty two million or

1291
01:11:35,160 --> 01:11:40,800
Speaker 4: whatever it was, property, then certainly it's that much is

1292
01:11:41,080 --> 01:11:44,840
Speaker 4: at issue, so take our case. And interesting, but you

1293
01:11:44,880 --> 01:11:48,439
Speaker 4: guys came up with the number at first at first,

1294
01:11:49,360 --> 01:11:51,920
Speaker 4: and interest is it was a challenge, Yeah, because we

1295
01:11:52,479 --> 01:11:54,639
Speaker 4: want to take to federal court. We said, look, their

1296
01:11:54,680 --> 01:11:58,320
Speaker 4: complaining that we're messing with the ability to sell this property.

1297
01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:01,320
Speaker 4: You got to take our case. The other angle was

1298
01:12:01,880 --> 01:12:04,799
Speaker 4: we said, there's a federal question here. The federal question

1299
01:12:04,960 --> 01:12:09,000
Speaker 4: is what Unlawful Enclosures Act? How does that apply? There's

1300
01:12:09,040 --> 01:12:11,920
Speaker 4: all this federal land at issue. Access is a hugely

1301
01:12:11,960 --> 01:12:15,960
Speaker 4: important public interest. This court needs to answer that. We

1302
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:20,000
Speaker 4: need an answer. Interestingly, they of course asked for the

1303
01:12:20,040 --> 01:12:21,920
Speaker 4: case to go back to state court, and they said

1304
01:12:21,920 --> 01:12:24,639
Speaker 4: that's because they ain't that much at issue. They haven't

1305
01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:26,760
Speaker 4: shown that there's that much at issue. They actually said

1306
01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:30,679
Speaker 4: that way back when they said, look, they haven't shown

1307
01:12:30,720 --> 01:12:33,840
Speaker 4: the amountain controversy. We didn't say the amountain controversy was

1308
01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:37,680
Speaker 4: that much. You know, there's no federal questions here, just

1309
01:12:37,720 --> 01:12:40,559
Speaker 4: a regular old trespassed lawsuit. Send us back to state court.

1310
01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:45,679
Speaker 4: They said that, and they lost on that, and their

1311
01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:48,160
Speaker 4: motion to send it back was denied. Kept the case

1312
01:12:48,160 --> 01:12:53,280
Speaker 4: state in federal court, which was huge, And then we

1313
01:12:53,320 --> 01:12:56,920
Speaker 4: tried to it's strange little judo here. Then we tried

1314
01:12:56,920 --> 01:12:59,160
Speaker 4: to dismiss their case and say they don't have one

1315
01:13:00,120 --> 01:13:02,440
Speaker 4: so it's just a lot of yeah.

1316
01:13:02,280 --> 01:13:05,320
Speaker 2: And still there hadn't been a dollar amount floated, not yet,

1317
01:13:05,520 --> 01:13:10,599
Speaker 2: not yet, because that that would come later. We lost

1318
01:13:10,600 --> 01:13:12,800
Speaker 2: that motion of dismiss but the judge said something really

1319
01:13:12,840 --> 01:13:16,320
Speaker 2: interesting in that order. He said, Look, I don't think

1320
01:13:16,360 --> 01:13:19,240
Speaker 2: I can dismiss this case yet, but I do think

1321
01:13:19,360 --> 01:13:22,880
Speaker 2: you can raise a defense to a corner crossing trespass

1322
01:13:23,000 --> 01:13:26,400
Speaker 2: using the Unlawful Enclosures Act. I do think that you

1323
01:13:26,560 --> 01:13:30,320
Speaker 2: have the ability to defend yourself if someone sues you

1324
01:13:30,760 --> 01:13:33,400
Speaker 2: or claims that you've committed a trespass because you corner

1325
01:13:33,439 --> 01:13:36,160
Speaker 2: crossed by saying there's a federal law that protects me,

1326
01:13:36,560 --> 01:13:39,400
Speaker 2: just like Brad and company had said way back when

1327
01:13:39,400 --> 01:13:40,360
Speaker 2: to that sheriff's deputy.

1328
01:13:40,720 --> 01:13:43,000
Speaker 1: Is that common for a judge to throw out like a.

1329
01:13:43,000 --> 01:13:45,920
Speaker 4: Tip, Well, we had put that in our motion. We

1330
01:13:45,960 --> 01:13:48,240
Speaker 4: said that's why he should dismiss it. And there was

1331
01:13:48,280 --> 01:13:50,679
Speaker 4: this question of whether we could even raise that deface.

1332
01:13:50,680 --> 01:13:52,479
Speaker 1: Oh I can't. I'm not going to dismiss it. But

1333
01:13:52,560 --> 01:13:54,439
Speaker 1: that's a that's an arguable point.

1334
01:13:54,520 --> 01:13:56,880
Speaker 6: Yes, yeah, he said, this isn't enough to throw it out,

1335
01:13:56,920 --> 01:13:59,520
Speaker 6: but this is something that is worth considering.

1336
01:13:59,640 --> 01:14:02,280
Speaker 2: Exactly, That's exactly what he said. He said that that's

1337
01:14:02,360 --> 01:14:03,559
Speaker 2: a real thing to consider.

1338
01:14:03,600 --> 01:14:05,960
Speaker 3: That give you some kind of like warm and fuzzies inside.

1339
01:14:06,160 --> 01:14:09,240
Speaker 4: Absolutely. I mean, you know, I'll lose the battle, but

1340
01:14:09,280 --> 01:14:11,280
Speaker 4: win the war. All day long. So that's okay, and

1341
01:14:11,400 --> 01:14:13,360
Speaker 4: it set me back, but it still give me the path.

1342
01:14:13,880 --> 01:14:16,200
Speaker 4: So no, it was that was a good sign for sure.

1343
01:14:16,960 --> 01:14:19,400
Speaker 4: But then after we lost that motion, that's what triggers

1344
01:14:19,520 --> 01:14:22,160
Speaker 4: kind of okay, we got to start exchanging information and

1345
01:14:22,200 --> 01:14:25,599
Speaker 4: discovery and very first disclosure we got. I remember I was.

1346
01:14:25,800 --> 01:14:28,000
Speaker 4: I think I was driving back. I was in my

1347
01:14:28,120 --> 01:14:33,719
Speaker 4: car now with the turtle now now just me. Uh,

1348
01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:37,040
Speaker 4: maybe I was driving back from like a weird little

1349
01:14:37,040 --> 01:14:39,639
Speaker 4: assault trial I had in Rawlins or something. I remember.

1350
01:14:40,840 --> 01:14:42,880
Speaker 1: I sounds like a country song.

1351
01:14:44,000 --> 01:14:48,200
Speaker 2: You've driven through Rollins, right, Yeah, weird.

1352
01:14:50,479 --> 01:14:52,680
Speaker 4: I'm pretty sure it was. It was this guy. He

1353
01:14:52,840 --> 01:14:56,320
Speaker 4: was a truck driver and he got jumped by four

1354
01:14:56,360 --> 01:14:58,519
Speaker 4: other truck drivers because he was trying to get up

1355
01:14:58,560 --> 01:15:00,680
Speaker 4: to the fuel pump and they were just sitting there

1356
01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:02,639
Speaker 4: playing on their phone or something, so it was honking

1357
01:15:02,640 --> 01:15:05,680
Speaker 4: his horn. Oh and and he didn't know that they

1358
01:15:05,720 --> 01:15:07,960
Speaker 4: had like four people in the cab of their truck.

1359
01:15:08,160 --> 01:15:10,240
Speaker 4: He just thought it was just the driver, and they

1360
01:15:10,280 --> 01:15:13,439
Speaker 4: popped out and kicked his ass, and but he got

1361
01:15:13,479 --> 01:15:17,240
Speaker 4: side too, and so he wanted to try the case

1362
01:15:17,240 --> 01:15:18,800
Speaker 4: because he's like, no, I'm the victim, So Yeah, I

1363
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:21,320
Speaker 4: remember that. Yeah, we went, we had a trial, we

1364
01:15:21,400 --> 01:15:26,879
Speaker 4: won that trip. Yeah. And then as I was driving

1365
01:15:26,960 --> 01:15:29,200
Speaker 4: back and I got this ping on my phone and

1366
01:15:29,240 --> 01:15:34,519
Speaker 4: it was the initial disclosures document from the ranch. And

1367
01:15:34,560 --> 01:15:36,559
Speaker 4: that's the first time they've got to say what they

1368
01:15:36,560 --> 01:15:38,960
Speaker 4: think their damages are and.

1369
01:15:38,960 --> 01:15:42,960
Speaker 1: Trying to read that while you drive, and yeah, take

1370
01:15:43,000 --> 01:15:43,360
Speaker 1: a peek.

1371
01:15:43,400 --> 01:15:46,200
Speaker 4: Well, I didn't read all their crazy attachments, but I

1372
01:15:46,560 --> 01:15:49,600
Speaker 4: did look for a number. I was just trying to

1373
01:15:49,680 --> 01:15:52,840
Speaker 4: find a number, is what I cared about. And that's

1374
01:15:52,880 --> 01:15:55,800
Speaker 4: when I saw, for the very first time they had this.

1375
01:15:55,840 --> 01:16:00,320
Speaker 4: It starts off simple ten dollars for damages, and then

1376
01:16:00,439 --> 01:16:03,759
Speaker 4: it starts then it gets weird three point one million

1377
01:16:03,840 --> 01:16:08,400
Speaker 4: to seven point seventy five million for actual damages arising

1378
01:16:08,479 --> 01:16:13,120
Speaker 4: from defendant's conduct colon ten percent to twenty five percent

1379
01:16:13,200 --> 01:16:19,639
Speaker 4: diminution of value of the real property parentheses, subject to revision.

1380
01:16:20,880 --> 01:16:26,080
Speaker 4: And I I just kind of I couldn't I couldn't

1381
01:16:26,160 --> 01:16:30,639
Speaker 4: quite understand exactly. I think I liked it on one hand,

1382
01:16:31,040 --> 01:16:35,320
Speaker 4: because they conceded the amount in controversy finally, so now

1383
01:16:35,320 --> 01:16:37,599
Speaker 4: I knew I was in the right court. But then

1384
01:16:37,640 --> 01:16:40,080
Speaker 4: on the other hand, I was like, they really think

1385
01:16:40,120 --> 01:16:43,760
Speaker 4: that they're gonna show show this because because the way

1386
01:16:43,840 --> 01:16:46,559
Speaker 4: I always thought about it was this, if they're right

1387
01:16:47,280 --> 01:16:50,320
Speaker 4: and we had no right to corner cross, then there's

1388
01:16:50,360 --> 01:16:52,600
Speaker 4: no loss of value to their property there, you know,

1389
01:16:52,760 --> 01:16:56,479
Speaker 4: conception of what they have stays exactly the same. But

1390
01:16:56,560 --> 01:17:01,920
Speaker 4: if they're wrong and they can't stop people from corner crossing, well,

1391
01:17:02,200 --> 01:17:06,400
Speaker 4: then they don't have any way. If there's some little

1392
01:17:06,439 --> 01:17:10,000
Speaker 4: premium that their property enjoys because no one can corner cross,

1393
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:12,519
Speaker 4: well that premium is false, had never existed.

1394
01:17:12,680 --> 01:17:14,960
Speaker 6: It's like if you bought a place thinking that there's

1395
01:17:14,960 --> 01:17:18,040
Speaker 6: a whole bunch of gold on it, and then the gold's.

1396
01:17:17,720 --> 01:17:18,519
Speaker 4: Not actually there.

1397
01:17:18,560 --> 01:17:24,639
Speaker 6: You're not about my house tale as old as time. Yeah,

1398
01:17:24,800 --> 01:17:29,040
Speaker 6: So they're like, like the value is the value is.

1399
01:17:29,040 --> 01:17:33,160
Speaker 1: Always imaginary essentially right. I always felt maybe you can

1400
01:17:33,160 --> 01:17:35,960
Speaker 1: get to this in your narrative. I always felt that

1401
01:17:36,040 --> 01:17:41,640
Speaker 1: this gentleman's uh the landowners gripe should have been with

1402
01:17:41,920 --> 01:17:45,320
Speaker 1: some people in the real estate industry, you know, or

1403
01:17:45,400 --> 01:17:49,840
Speaker 1: his attorney who did the deal. Why is he not

1404
01:17:49,880 --> 01:17:53,519
Speaker 1: mad at him?

1405
01:17:53,520 --> 01:17:55,599
Speaker 4: Maybe because the statute of limitations is run.

1406
01:17:57,040 --> 01:17:58,560
Speaker 1: Uh, but you know what I mean, Like, if I

1407
01:17:59,320 --> 01:18:02,200
Speaker 1: bought a thing on an assumption and I was led

1408
01:18:02,240 --> 01:18:08,160
Speaker 1: by people. I'm paying commissions to fees to to vet

1409
01:18:08,760 --> 01:18:12,320
Speaker 1: right and due diligence on a on a purchase, and

1410
01:18:12,360 --> 01:18:17,599
Speaker 1: then it winds up being that some contractor says, hey,

1411
01:18:17,640 --> 01:18:21,920
Speaker 1: I don't know if you realize everything inside this place

1412
01:18:21,960 --> 01:18:26,439
Speaker 1: is black mold, right. Do I go, you know what,

1413
01:18:26,600 --> 01:18:31,519
Speaker 1: mister contractor, you owe me money for this house? Or

1414
01:18:31,560 --> 01:18:33,800
Speaker 1: would I go, Man, I need to go talk to

1415
01:18:33,840 --> 01:18:39,600
Speaker 1: my building inspector who said everything's cool. Yeah, yeah, But

1416
01:18:39,720 --> 01:18:43,200
Speaker 1: it just felt like so miss It felt so misassigned.

1417
01:18:44,439 --> 01:18:46,320
Speaker 1: So the blame, I think.

1418
01:18:46,160 --> 01:18:50,880
Speaker 4: That that's that's absolutely right. It's definitely missed as signed blame.

1419
01:18:50,960 --> 01:18:54,839
Speaker 4: But I think it was just it was in his mind.

1420
01:18:55,920 --> 01:19:00,200
Speaker 4: And I'm just reading Tea Leaves that this is the

1421
01:19:00,280 --> 01:19:02,920
Speaker 4: enforcement mechanism of the right he thought he had. Is

1422
01:19:02,920 --> 01:19:05,360
Speaker 4: that he when he bought the property, he was like, hey, look,

1423
01:19:05,360 --> 01:19:07,639
Speaker 4: people are going to try it, I guess, but they can't.

1424
01:19:07,840 --> 01:19:09,559
Speaker 4: And I'm going to win this. I'm gonna stamp it

1425
01:19:09,560 --> 01:19:11,479
Speaker 4: out and I'm gonna throw out these numbers because I

1426
01:19:11,520 --> 01:19:13,160
Speaker 4: want to show how serious I am about how I

1427
01:19:13,280 --> 01:19:16,400
Speaker 4: value this, this privilege that I believe I enjoy this

1428
01:19:16,520 --> 01:19:19,439
Speaker 4: property interest that I believe I have, and so I

1429
01:19:19,439 --> 01:19:21,760
Speaker 4: think it was kind of a bark, you know, not

1430
01:19:21,840 --> 01:19:24,559
Speaker 4: a lot of bite, a lot of bark. And I

1431
01:19:24,600 --> 01:19:27,160
Speaker 4: think that there was a realization of that because of

1432
01:19:27,200 --> 01:19:30,040
Speaker 4: the public attention on the case that if we can

1433
01:19:30,280 --> 01:19:33,240
Speaker 4: get out into the atmosphere, this is really what you're

1434
01:19:33,240 --> 01:19:36,120
Speaker 4: facing and believing. Not a fun conversation to call a

1435
01:19:36,200 --> 01:19:40,560
Speaker 4: fence builder, his employee, a truck repair guy, and a

1436
01:19:41,000 --> 01:19:44,040
Speaker 4: band director and say they think the damages are, you know,

1437
01:19:44,520 --> 01:19:46,720
Speaker 4: getting close to ten million dollars.

1438
01:19:47,479 --> 01:19:49,599
Speaker 3: What's in your accounts right now?

1439
01:19:50,040 --> 01:19:52,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, not not a fun conversation at all.

1440
01:19:53,200 --> 01:19:55,160
Speaker 1: But I'm just trying to So I'm just trying to

1441
01:19:55,160 --> 01:19:58,240
Speaker 1: get the law. I don't want to stop you because

1442
01:19:58,320 --> 01:19:59,720
Speaker 1: you're doing a great job. We'll explain a whole thing,

1443
01:19:59,880 --> 01:20:03,000
Speaker 1: just trying to. I've never been able to grapple with

1444
01:20:03,040 --> 01:20:04,479
Speaker 1: the logic. It's it's more of.

1445
01:20:04,400 --> 01:20:07,800
Speaker 6: An attempt to keep the house of cards, to make

1446
01:20:07,800 --> 01:20:10,520
Speaker 6: the house of cards look like it's still standing essentially.

1447
01:20:10,680 --> 01:20:12,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I mean we were talking earlier about

1448
01:20:12,960 --> 01:20:16,240
Speaker 4: security theater and how like you know TSA for example,

1449
01:20:16,320 --> 01:20:18,720
Speaker 4: they wear their uniforms and they have their scanners and

1450
01:20:18,720 --> 01:20:20,599
Speaker 4: they do all their stuff, and they look really serious

1451
01:20:20,640 --> 01:20:23,800
Speaker 4: and they're kind of, you know, stern folks, because the

1452
01:20:23,920 --> 01:20:26,920
Speaker 4: visual of security is more important than the reality, like

1453
01:20:27,000 --> 01:20:29,400
Speaker 4: can they actually stop stuff? We know they don't stop stuff.

1454
01:20:29,400 --> 01:20:31,839
Speaker 4: We know they're not good at it. But for most people,

1455
01:20:32,040 --> 01:20:35,599
Speaker 4: just the apparatus, the visual is enough to make it secure.

1456
01:20:35,680 --> 01:20:37,000
Speaker 4: You're not going to try it, you're not going to

1457
01:20:37,080 --> 01:20:40,080
Speaker 4: test it. And I think that was the concept behind.

1458
01:20:39,840 --> 01:20:42,080
Speaker 1: Their loss of pocket knife. To those guys, you look

1459
01:20:42,160 --> 01:20:44,599
Speaker 1: me in the eye, Well, I know they haven't found

1460
01:20:44,640 --> 01:20:45,280
Speaker 1: your pocket knife.

1461
01:20:45,320 --> 01:20:47,200
Speaker 4: I've never bought a pocket knife, but.

1462
01:20:49,000 --> 01:20:52,680
Speaker 1: Everyone at this table can a test to their effectiveness

1463
01:20:52,920 --> 01:20:54,160
Speaker 1: a pocket knife detection.

1464
01:20:54,479 --> 01:21:01,479
Speaker 4: I straight shotgun shells. Well, I think their stats when

1465
01:21:01,479 --> 01:21:03,840
Speaker 4: they do their quality control are not very good. But

1466
01:21:04,479 --> 01:21:09,479
Speaker 4: with stuff that can actually get through. Yeah, yeah, but

1467
01:21:09,479 --> 01:21:10,320
Speaker 4: but yeah.

1468
01:21:10,200 --> 01:21:12,320
Speaker 1: I'm not joking. We've all lost knives of those people,

1469
01:21:12,640 --> 01:21:13,120
Speaker 1: but go on.

1470
01:21:13,320 --> 01:21:13,559
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1471
01:21:13,640 --> 01:21:16,120
Speaker 4: But but so I think that the concept was if

1472
01:21:16,160 --> 01:21:17,920
Speaker 4: I throw out this is how serious it is. It's

1473
01:21:17,920 --> 01:21:21,000
Speaker 4: ten million, seven point seven five million dollars worth of damages,

1474
01:21:21,520 --> 01:21:24,000
Speaker 4: do not even think about it. That was the That

1475
01:21:24,120 --> 01:21:25,840
Speaker 4: was the message to everybody.

1476
01:21:25,920 --> 01:21:27,200
Speaker 1: It's peacocky, Yeah.

1477
01:21:27,160 --> 01:21:32,599
Speaker 2: Don't exactly, but it like, did they ever acknowledge that

1478
01:21:33,040 --> 01:21:37,400
Speaker 2: in like suing for the that amount of damages to

1479
01:21:37,439 --> 01:21:41,800
Speaker 2: the property, they're also admitting that the damage was done

1480
01:21:41,840 --> 01:21:43,679
Speaker 2: because corner crossing is legal.

1481
01:21:43,960 --> 01:21:48,440
Speaker 1: No, but there's no that that's the damage was done because.

1482
01:21:48,200 --> 01:21:54,000
Speaker 6: He did it right, and he owes me yeah, because

1483
01:21:54,080 --> 01:21:55,280
Speaker 6: corner crossing.

1484
01:21:55,000 --> 01:21:59,320
Speaker 2: Is legal, Like it's well, yeah, it is strange, am

1485
01:21:59,320 --> 01:22:01,880
Speaker 2: I just reading No? No, no, you're reading it exactly right.

1486
01:22:02,320 --> 01:22:05,559
Speaker 2: And I think there was two angles of this. When

1487
01:22:05,560 --> 01:22:06,880
Speaker 2: they're trying to be legitimate.

1488
01:22:07,080 --> 01:22:10,200
Speaker 4: Their claim was, well, these four guys and everybody who

1489
01:22:10,479 --> 01:22:14,679
Speaker 4: had been helping them with funding and BHA, everybody else

1490
01:22:14,720 --> 01:22:19,000
Speaker 4: that's involved in this issue of recognizing the legality of

1491
01:22:19,040 --> 01:22:23,519
Speaker 4: corner crossing, they're in some conspiracy to just have everybody

1492
01:22:23,640 --> 01:22:27,639
Speaker 4: run amook on the ranch and commit just serial after

1493
01:22:27,720 --> 01:22:32,320
Speaker 4: cereal trespass. So I think that was the concept is like, well,

1494
01:22:32,320 --> 01:22:34,160
Speaker 4: these guys are the spear, their tip of the spear

1495
01:22:34,760 --> 01:22:37,679
Speaker 4: that's going to puncture my property rights. So that's why

1496
01:22:37,720 --> 01:22:41,000
Speaker 4: I'm going to go after them. But I think the reality, if.

1497
01:22:40,920 --> 01:22:44,519
Speaker 1: You know, that's good, yeah, yeah, yeah, satisfies Yeah.

1498
01:22:44,400 --> 01:22:47,320
Speaker 3: But I also speaks back to the flaw in their

1499
01:22:47,360 --> 01:22:51,439
Speaker 3: initial strategy right, which we've discussed. It's like, if that

1500
01:22:51,880 --> 01:22:57,400
Speaker 3: is what you wanted to circumvent, you don't call the sheriff,

1501
01:22:57,680 --> 01:23:02,000
Speaker 3: you don't call the DA. You have a person to

1502
01:23:02,040 --> 01:23:04,840
Speaker 3: person conversation with this group, and you figure out a

1503
01:23:04,840 --> 01:23:08,400
Speaker 3: way to let them continue on what they're legally doing

1504
01:23:08,960 --> 01:23:13,599
Speaker 3: in a way that is completely inconspicuous to every other

1505
01:23:13,640 --> 01:23:16,000
Speaker 3: group of hunters out there that could ever go down

1506
01:23:16,040 --> 01:23:16,760
Speaker 3: that county road.

1507
01:23:16,800 --> 01:23:19,559
Speaker 1: It'd be better if you're parked up by the house and.

1508
01:23:19,640 --> 01:23:21,720
Speaker 2: Act why don't you park up at the ranch house

1509
01:23:21,800 --> 01:23:25,200
Speaker 2: and would have liked to keep this spot a secret

1510
01:23:25,200 --> 01:23:25,479
Speaker 2: as well?

1511
01:23:26,040 --> 01:23:26,920
Speaker 5: I mean that they wouldn't.

1512
01:23:27,560 --> 01:23:31,639
Speaker 1: That's the real victim here. These guys are spots alone.

1513
01:23:32,520 --> 01:23:34,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, it would be a pumpkin patch up there.

1514
01:23:34,840 --> 01:23:35,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1515
01:23:35,080 --> 01:23:38,439
Speaker 3: What in a civil trial, what is the damage amount

1516
01:23:38,520 --> 01:23:40,240
Speaker 3: assigned to losing a good hunting spot?

1517
01:23:41,240 --> 01:23:41,840
Speaker 4: Ten million?

1518
01:23:46,080 --> 01:23:48,040
Speaker 1: Because you blew this whole thing up now it looks

1519
01:23:48,080 --> 01:23:49,519
Speaker 1: like that, Like you know, I was trying to make

1520
01:23:49,560 --> 01:23:52,360
Speaker 1: this analogy for you know that famous photo of people

1521
01:23:52,400 --> 01:23:54,840
Speaker 1: trying to get to the Klondike gold Field and you're

1522
01:23:54,840 --> 01:23:57,160
Speaker 1: climbing up that pass out of Whittier. That's what that

1523
01:23:57,280 --> 01:24:01,080
Speaker 1: ladder looks like right now going into this golden something

1524
01:24:01,160 --> 01:24:01,439
Speaker 1: like that.

1525
01:24:01,560 --> 01:24:07,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no. I said that that whole

1526
01:24:07,520 --> 01:24:11,439
Speaker 4: question was just straight, and it got stranger still because

1527
01:24:11,680 --> 01:24:14,960
Speaker 4: as the case progressed, they got an expert who was

1528
01:24:15,000 --> 01:24:18,679
Speaker 4: gonna who opined about this diminution and value of corner

1529
01:24:18,720 --> 01:24:20,400
Speaker 4: crossing is legal, and that was how he based the

1530
01:24:20,439 --> 01:24:23,280
Speaker 4: opinion too. It wasn't like, oh, my opinion is based

1531
01:24:23,320 --> 01:24:26,040
Speaker 4: on what the footfalls of these four hunters in twenty

1532
01:24:26,360 --> 01:24:29,720
Speaker 4: and twenty twenty one caused this damage. His opinion was, well,

1533
01:24:30,320 --> 01:24:32,320
Speaker 4: if a court says it's legal, this is what's going

1534
01:24:32,400 --> 01:24:35,240
Speaker 4: to happen to the resale value if you ranch. And

1535
01:24:35,280 --> 01:24:37,760
Speaker 4: he even went higher. He said that the diminution of

1536
01:24:37,840 --> 01:24:40,960
Speaker 4: value could be as high as like thirty percent, just

1537
01:24:41,000 --> 01:24:44,439
Speaker 4: because that's he knows selling ranches, and this is how

1538
01:24:44,439 --> 01:24:48,280
Speaker 4: hard it would be. So then so that I guess

1539
01:24:48,560 --> 01:24:50,960
Speaker 4: the damn just went up a little bit. And then

1540
01:24:50,960 --> 01:24:53,240
Speaker 4: we got to kind of the eve of the summary

1541
01:24:53,320 --> 01:24:58,280
Speaker 4: judgment hearing and we get this filing from them that says, look,

1542
01:24:58,920 --> 01:25:02,160
Speaker 4: if you rule in our and you say corner crossing

1543
01:25:02,320 --> 01:25:05,040
Speaker 4: is illegal or that these guys committed a trespass and

1544
01:25:05,080 --> 01:25:08,120
Speaker 4: the way that they did their corner crossing, Uh, will

1545
01:25:08,200 --> 01:25:11,800
Speaker 4: drop our damages, we won't ask for any money, and

1546
01:25:11,920 --> 01:25:14,360
Speaker 4: they can keep on. And this went to the court. Yeah,

1547
01:25:14,520 --> 01:25:16,320
Speaker 4: they filed this with the court. They filed that with

1548
01:25:16,360 --> 01:25:18,200
Speaker 4: the court and they said, I, if you if you

1549
01:25:18,320 --> 01:25:20,640
Speaker 4: ruin our favor, we're not asking for any money, we

1550
01:25:20,760 --> 01:25:23,759
Speaker 4: won't ask for anything. But they waited until right before.

1551
01:25:23,800 --> 01:25:29,840
Speaker 1: Wouldn't that point be not Why would the court be

1552
01:25:29,920 --> 01:25:33,240
Speaker 1: able to consider that because they're not the court's not negotiating.

1553
01:25:34,120 --> 01:25:37,320
Speaker 4: I don't know if it was too if it was

1554
01:25:37,880 --> 01:25:40,559
Speaker 4: an active diplomacy and it was like bringing the beer

1555
01:25:40,600 --> 01:25:44,720
Speaker 4: to the guys at the fish clean the Yeah. Yeah,

1556
01:25:44,760 --> 01:25:47,280
Speaker 4: it was like, look, don't don't worry if if you're

1557
01:25:47,360 --> 01:25:50,000
Speaker 4: if you have heartburn about ruling in my favor because

1558
01:25:50,160 --> 01:25:53,240
Speaker 4: I'm going to crush these people with the damages. Don't worry.

1559
01:25:53,280 --> 01:25:54,120
Speaker 4: I'm not going to do that.

1560
01:25:54,320 --> 01:25:57,960
Speaker 1: Got it? And so what was that presented to the

1561
01:25:58,320 --> 01:26:01,760
Speaker 1: alleged trespassers as a deal or did it was it

1562
01:26:01,840 --> 01:26:02,759
Speaker 1: just sitting in the court.

1563
01:26:02,920 --> 01:26:04,479
Speaker 4: No, it was just filed with the court. It was

1564
01:26:04,560 --> 01:26:06,719
Speaker 4: just it was just filed with the court saying, look,

1565
01:26:06,880 --> 01:26:10,639
Speaker 4: if you if you rule in our favor, were we're

1566
01:26:10,680 --> 01:26:12,920
Speaker 4: going to drop this or we're not going to even

1567
01:26:13,040 --> 01:26:13,559
Speaker 4: go for all.

1568
01:26:13,640 --> 01:26:18,160
Speaker 1: But then are your clients notified of this of this question?

1569
01:26:19,080 --> 01:26:21,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh yeah, no, yeah, they would see that. But

1570
01:26:21,800 --> 01:26:24,200
Speaker 4: it wasn't It wasn't like an offer of settlement. It

1571
01:26:24,240 --> 01:26:27,320
Speaker 4: wasn't like, hey, let's settle this thing. It was just

1572
01:26:27,400 --> 01:26:30,840
Speaker 4: to the judge. So it kind of was what it was,

1573
01:26:31,800 --> 01:26:35,200
Speaker 4: and the judge says, well, ultimately the judge ruled in

1574
01:26:35,240 --> 01:26:38,800
Speaker 4: our favor. So the judge never addressed that issue at all.

1575
01:26:39,040 --> 01:26:41,200
Speaker 4: Oh okay, yeah, yeah, it was just kind of sitting

1576
01:26:41,240 --> 01:26:41,639
Speaker 4: out there.

1577
01:26:41,760 --> 01:26:43,559
Speaker 1: It was just an interesting he never he never had

1578
01:26:43,560 --> 01:26:44,960
Speaker 1: to wait, he's never forced to weigh in.

1579
01:26:44,880 --> 01:26:46,639
Speaker 4: On now, I did not have to weigh in on that.

1580
01:26:46,640 --> 01:26:49,680
Speaker 4: That that that side of it. Yeah. So we go

1581
01:26:49,800 --> 01:26:53,599
Speaker 4: through that whole discovery phase, collecting evidence and whatnot through

1582
01:26:54,640 --> 01:26:57,040
Speaker 4: and in March of twenty three, I think, maybe no

1583
01:26:57,120 --> 01:27:01,559
Speaker 4: April fifteenth of twenty three, and then we all filed

1584
01:27:01,640 --> 01:27:04,679
Speaker 4: competing motions saying you don't need to have a trial

1585
01:27:04,720 --> 01:27:07,760
Speaker 4: in this case. We win for this reason, and they

1586
01:27:07,800 --> 01:27:10,360
Speaker 4: filed their corresponding motion, and then we had a summary

1587
01:27:10,439 --> 01:27:14,200
Speaker 4: judgment hearing on those motions on May tenth of twenty

1588
01:27:14,200 --> 01:27:18,720
Speaker 4: three and made our arguments directly to Jude Scavdal and

1589
01:27:19,560 --> 01:27:21,880
Speaker 4: kind of he questioned us, peppered us. He's a very

1590
01:27:21,880 --> 01:27:25,160
Speaker 4: prepared judge, and he was ready, and he had lots

1591
01:27:25,160 --> 01:27:30,559
Speaker 4: of questions for everybody, and then we waited, and then

1592
01:27:30,640 --> 01:27:32,040
Speaker 4: it was kind of okay.

1593
01:27:31,800 --> 01:27:35,439
Speaker 1: Well, give me a sense of what would be a question.

1594
01:27:36,160 --> 01:27:38,040
Speaker 4: Well, so just like I'm.

1595
01:27:37,840 --> 01:27:40,320
Speaker 1: Just curious, how particular are his questions? Oh?

1596
01:27:40,920 --> 01:27:44,519
Speaker 4: Pretty, pretty particular. For example, I think I spoke for

1597
01:27:44,640 --> 01:27:48,080
Speaker 4: maybe twenty thirty seven I've got the transcript somewhere, but

1598
01:27:48,360 --> 01:27:50,840
Speaker 4: I spoke for maybe twenty thirty seconds, and he interrupted

1599
01:27:50,840 --> 01:27:53,280
Speaker 4: me with a question of something like, well, how is

1600
01:27:53,320 --> 01:27:58,200
Speaker 4: this not they have this bundle of sticks is the

1601
01:27:58,200 --> 01:28:00,640
Speaker 4: way lawyers like to talk about property. And they have

1602
01:28:00,680 --> 01:28:03,880
Speaker 4: a right to exclude people from their property, and that

1603
01:28:03,920 --> 01:28:07,800
Speaker 4: includes the super adjacent airspace above their property. So when

1604
01:28:07,840 --> 01:28:10,320
Speaker 4: they crossed through that corner, I mean, are they they

1605
01:28:10,360 --> 01:28:14,280
Speaker 4: are crossing through airspace that's technically above their property, So

1606
01:28:14,280 --> 01:28:16,519
Speaker 4: why doesn't that affect their right to exclude I mean

1607
01:28:16,520 --> 01:28:21,400
Speaker 4: it was like that level of granularity, and so so yeah,

1608
01:28:21,720 --> 01:28:24,160
Speaker 4: you'd get those questions. He asked about the damage this

1609
01:28:24,240 --> 01:28:26,040
Speaker 4: thing too. He kind of had the similar question that

1610
01:28:26,080 --> 01:28:28,960
Speaker 4: we've all been wrestling around with with, like, well, damned

1611
01:28:28,960 --> 01:28:30,439
Speaker 4: if you do, damned if you don't, how do I

1612
01:28:30,720 --> 01:28:35,559
Speaker 4: how do I reconcile that this premium that they're placing

1613
01:28:35,560 --> 01:28:37,839
Speaker 4: on their property. So, yeah, it was, it was detailed.

1614
01:28:37,840 --> 01:28:42,000
Speaker 4: He was ready, and then we waited. So we were

1615
01:28:42,040 --> 01:28:44,120
Speaker 4: kind of just getting ready for trial because you got

1616
01:28:44,120 --> 01:28:45,680
Speaker 4: to prepare in case the judge isn't going to rule.

1617
01:28:45,720 --> 01:28:46,240
Speaker 1: You got to waited.

1618
01:28:46,240 --> 01:28:50,280
Speaker 4: How long we waited, Oh shoot, I think it was

1619
01:28:50,360 --> 01:28:52,880
Speaker 4: a couple of weeks. I think his decision came out

1620
01:28:52,920 --> 01:28:56,760
Speaker 4: on May twenty third, if I'm not mistaken, And so

1621
01:28:57,040 --> 01:28:59,599
Speaker 4: we waited two weeks just about to get a ruling.

1622
01:29:00,200 --> 01:29:04,240
Speaker 4: And when he issued that for that order, that kind

1623
01:29:04,240 --> 01:29:06,920
Speaker 4: of took a lot of stuff off the table and

1624
01:29:07,000 --> 01:29:10,360
Speaker 4: clarified quite a bit. This ambiguity about corner crossing, I

1625
01:29:10,439 --> 01:29:14,400
Speaker 4: think was taken away. I mean, everything that we've always

1626
01:29:14,439 --> 01:29:17,320
Speaker 4: thought about, just the absurdity of it, the practicality of it.

1627
01:29:17,680 --> 01:29:20,040
Speaker 1: That order summarizes ruling.

1628
01:29:21,040 --> 01:29:25,040
Speaker 4: The public is entitled to a right of reasonable access

1629
01:29:25,600 --> 01:29:28,640
Speaker 4: across the corner from public to public and the checkerboard,

1630
01:29:29,080 --> 01:29:32,880
Speaker 4: and when they do that. They cannot touch the private land,

1631
01:29:32,960 --> 01:29:35,960
Speaker 4: they cannot damage the private land and the private land

1632
01:29:36,080 --> 01:29:36,920
Speaker 4: or can't stop them.

1633
01:29:37,160 --> 01:29:39,920
Speaker 1: And what about the he asked about it.

1634
01:29:40,360 --> 01:29:44,599
Speaker 3: So what was his take on the air Yeah, so

1635
01:29:45,520 --> 01:29:49,080
Speaker 3: he didn't go in that very specific direction of what

1636
01:29:49,160 --> 01:29:51,599
Speaker 3: his airspace mean and how do we divvy it up?

1637
01:29:52,040 --> 01:29:57,120
Speaker 1: How can he to get to Tom mcguain can't ignore it,

1638
01:29:57,360 --> 01:30:00,160
Speaker 1: I mean what about the air.

1639
01:30:00,320 --> 01:30:04,519
Speaker 4: Yeah, what he hung his hat on was precedent. He

1640
01:30:04,600 --> 01:30:07,160
Speaker 4: hung his hat on a couple of cases, in particular

1641
01:30:07,320 --> 01:30:11,880
Speaker 4: this really old case called Mackay. It was sheep herder

1642
01:30:12,000 --> 01:30:15,040
Speaker 4: was trailing his sheep through the checkerboard and landowner and

1643
01:30:15,360 --> 01:30:19,000
Speaker 4: similar case actually because he was prosecuted criminally and suited

1644
01:30:19,000 --> 01:30:22,679
Speaker 4: civilly and the court said it's not it's not civil

1645
01:30:22,720 --> 01:30:26,360
Speaker 4: trespass to eat the sheep half and the sheep herder

1646
01:30:26,439 --> 01:30:29,320
Speaker 4: have to be able to access those public lands and

1647
01:30:29,360 --> 01:30:32,400
Speaker 4: it's not trespass for them to access them in a.

1648
01:30:32,360 --> 01:30:35,960
Speaker 1: Reason sheep ladder, Yeah, no, I'd be way to fall

1649
01:30:36,000 --> 01:30:40,960
Speaker 1: asleep at night picture sheep going over that ladder.

1650
01:30:41,160 --> 01:30:41,720
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1651
01:30:41,920 --> 01:30:44,280
Speaker 4: So so he hung his hat on that and that

1652
01:30:44,280 --> 01:30:46,320
Speaker 4: that case. But as far as the airspace question, I

1653
01:30:46,360 --> 01:30:48,880
Speaker 4: guarantee it's coming back. It's going to come back on

1654
01:30:48,920 --> 01:30:51,040
Speaker 4: this appeal that we have going on right now, and

1655
01:30:51,040 --> 01:30:52,760
Speaker 4: we're going to have to we're going to have to

1656
01:30:53,200 --> 01:30:54,960
Speaker 4: pin it down or at least respond to it. But

1657
01:30:54,960 --> 01:30:58,120
Speaker 4: the way we responded to it last time was, look, uh,

1658
01:30:58,439 --> 01:31:02,719
Speaker 4: airspace trespass, which is kind of this it's a weird

1659
01:31:02,800 --> 01:31:06,360
Speaker 4: question because it hasn't really affect us too much. We've

1660
01:31:06,400 --> 01:31:09,400
Speaker 4: already had cases to say airplanes are not trespassing on

1661
01:31:09,479 --> 01:31:13,360
Speaker 4: private property when they're flying overhead. But there was kind

1662
01:31:13,360 --> 01:31:17,320
Speaker 4: of this threshold of you know, some undetermined amount of

1663
01:31:17,439 --> 01:31:19,680
Speaker 4: space above the land that a private land or has

1664
01:31:19,680 --> 01:31:23,759
Speaker 4: the right to control. But the trespass cases have always

1665
01:31:23,760 --> 01:31:26,519
Speaker 4: said it's not an actual trespass if you use that

1666
01:31:26,640 --> 01:31:29,960
Speaker 4: airspace or go through that airspace unless it causes damage

1667
01:31:30,200 --> 01:31:32,800
Speaker 4: or interferes with the use of the airspace. And that

1668
01:31:32,880 --> 01:31:35,400
Speaker 4: was what we hung our hat on, is to say, look,

1669
01:31:35,600 --> 01:31:39,679
Speaker 4: if they're gonna go with an airspace trespass whatever, well,

1670
01:31:39,880 --> 01:31:43,519
Speaker 4: they weren't using the wide open range land airspace or

1671
01:31:43,840 --> 01:31:46,520
Speaker 4: or the land itself at all other than their teposts,

1672
01:31:47,880 --> 01:31:51,439
Speaker 4: and we weren't interfering with that non use of that land,

1673
01:31:51,520 --> 01:31:55,360
Speaker 4: so it's not an actionable trespass. That's that was our

1674
01:31:55,400 --> 01:31:58,840
Speaker 4: response then, and it didn't really become super crucial at

1675
01:31:58,880 --> 01:32:02,000
Speaker 4: that in skyt Doll's ruling, But it's something we'll have

1676
01:32:02,080 --> 01:32:05,080
Speaker 4: to address when we get to the appeal for sure.

1677
01:32:13,840 --> 01:32:14,920
Speaker 1: What's the appeal look like.

1678
01:32:15,479 --> 01:32:19,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, so right now we don't know quite yet. We

1679
01:32:19,120 --> 01:32:23,560
Speaker 4: just know that the case is on appeal. All the way,

1680
01:32:22,880 --> 01:32:26,599
Speaker 4: there was this whole motion to stay scaped All's ruling

1681
01:32:26,680 --> 01:32:32,640
Speaker 4: and that got denied. Basically the landowner said, look, if

1682
01:32:32,640 --> 01:32:34,920
Speaker 4: you don't stay this ruling, come hunting season in the fall,

1683
01:32:35,040 --> 01:32:38,439
Speaker 4: everyone's going to be running ramping over my land. I

1684
01:32:38,479 --> 01:32:40,880
Speaker 4: actually don't know what the current status so that is.

1685
01:32:40,920 --> 01:32:43,240
Speaker 4: I don't know people have been corner crossing or not

1686
01:32:43,960 --> 01:32:44,439
Speaker 4: because have.

1687
01:32:44,400 --> 01:32:45,160
Speaker 1: You been out there?

1688
01:32:45,200 --> 01:32:47,720
Speaker 4: Have you driven out to the ven? I've driven through,

1689
01:32:47,760 --> 01:32:49,760
Speaker 4: but I've never been out to the corner. I've never been.

1690
01:32:49,920 --> 01:32:53,280
Speaker 4: I want to go I do. I want to go

1691
01:32:53,360 --> 01:32:55,280
Speaker 4: right to that corner. I really really.

1692
01:32:55,120 --> 01:32:57,559
Speaker 6: Don't feel like when this is all settled, the band

1693
01:32:57,640 --> 01:32:59,599
Speaker 6: director should bring his marching band out.

1694
01:33:02,920 --> 01:33:05,920
Speaker 1: Zero appetite. I would have zero appetite to hop that

1695
01:33:06,040 --> 01:33:06,599
Speaker 1: corner man.

1696
01:33:08,479 --> 01:33:09,519
Speaker 5: Just like but.

1697
01:33:11,320 --> 01:33:15,599
Speaker 3: That's a really interesting point because there's nothing it's already

1698
01:33:15,600 --> 01:33:18,000
Speaker 3: been discovered, right, So it's not like a sneaky hunting

1699
01:33:18,040 --> 01:33:22,280
Speaker 3: spot anymore. So like if you're if your point of

1700
01:33:22,360 --> 01:33:26,439
Speaker 3: view is purely just hunting, it's not going to be

1701
01:33:26,880 --> 01:33:31,840
Speaker 3: to this very known place now, right. But I just

1702
01:33:31,880 --> 01:33:35,080
Speaker 3: made a really interesting observation, and Ryan and I were

1703
01:33:35,120 --> 01:33:37,640
Speaker 3: talking about it because I drove out to Buffalo, Wyoming.

1704
01:33:38,600 --> 01:33:41,280
Speaker 3: T RCP and b h A did listening sessions where

1705
01:33:41,280 --> 01:33:45,799
Speaker 3: they tried to invite in stakeholders to discuss corner crossing

1706
01:33:46,360 --> 01:33:50,440
Speaker 3: and just kind of get a temperature of everybody's feelings.

1707
01:33:51,040 --> 01:33:54,320
Speaker 3: And uh, Maggie Hudlow went to a couple for us too,

1708
01:33:55,240 --> 01:33:59,960
Speaker 3: and kind of in the hopes that something really dramatic

1709
01:34:00,040 --> 01:34:03,400
Speaker 3: would happen really that we could, you know, put on

1710
01:34:03,400 --> 01:34:07,200
Speaker 3: the website and talk about. And the most impactful part

1711
01:34:07,240 --> 01:34:11,080
Speaker 3: of that to me was like everyone in that room

1712
01:34:12,800 --> 01:34:17,080
Speaker 3: was very interested in access to public land. Nobody in

1713
01:34:17,080 --> 01:34:19,519
Speaker 3: that room was all that wrapped up in corner crossing.

1714
01:34:21,040 --> 01:34:22,040
Speaker 3: The takeaway that I.

1715
01:34:22,080 --> 01:34:24,960
Speaker 1: Had not wrapped up in that specific issue.

1716
01:34:25,040 --> 01:34:27,320
Speaker 3: Not wrapped up in that specific issue. The takeaway that

1717
01:34:27,400 --> 01:34:29,920
Speaker 3: I had is this is something that we do. This

1718
01:34:30,000 --> 01:34:32,439
Speaker 3: is something that we have done, and this is something

1719
01:34:32,520 --> 01:34:34,360
Speaker 3: that we will continue to do. And it's just not

1720
01:34:34,960 --> 01:34:38,160
Speaker 3: it's not an issue. It's not something that we talk about,

1721
01:34:38,840 --> 01:34:41,679
Speaker 3: right because it's it is a means of access currently

1722
01:34:42,400 --> 01:34:45,840
Speaker 3: it has been a means of access. And and even

1723
01:34:45,840 --> 01:34:51,200
Speaker 3: the landowners present, they were much more concerned about, well,

1724
01:34:51,360 --> 01:34:54,960
Speaker 3: these places that it you know, it's like a thoroughfare

1725
01:34:55,479 --> 01:34:58,800
Speaker 3: where it's a bigger chunk and people park there. What

1726
01:34:58,920 --> 01:35:01,960
Speaker 3: about the parking and what about the you know, stuff like.

1727
01:35:01,880 --> 01:35:03,120
Speaker 1: A bunch of proxy arguments.

1728
01:35:03,240 --> 01:35:03,439
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1729
01:35:03,479 --> 01:35:09,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, My interest in it, my interest in the subject,

1730
01:35:10,160 --> 01:35:13,479
Speaker 1: which is deep, has mostly always stemmed from how could

1731
01:35:13,520 --> 01:35:19,640
Speaker 1: something like this be unclear? Like of something of like

1732
01:35:19,720 --> 01:35:25,000
Speaker 1: such huge ramification and such squabbling and loss, Like how

1733
01:35:25,040 --> 01:35:27,200
Speaker 1: could I'm sure, because you work in the law, you

1734
01:35:27,240 --> 01:35:29,080
Speaker 1: probably were of a lot of things that are unclear.

1735
01:35:29,840 --> 01:35:31,599
Speaker 1: But I'm like, how in the world is this not

1736
01:35:31,960 --> 01:35:33,719
Speaker 1: even the world is this unclear?

1737
01:35:33,760 --> 01:35:36,280
Speaker 2: Even going all the way back to when they came

1738
01:35:36,360 --> 01:35:38,519
Speaker 2: up with this checkerboard system, they weren't like.

1739
01:35:38,520 --> 01:35:43,680
Speaker 1: Huh, someone someone that the railroad back in eighteen ninety year,

1740
01:35:43,680 --> 01:35:45,320
Speaker 1: what aver the hell wouldn't have been?

1741
01:35:45,640 --> 01:35:45,840
Speaker 8: You know what?

1742
01:35:45,920 --> 01:35:48,839
Speaker 1: I keep thinking about since they gave us every other section.

1743
01:35:48,920 --> 01:35:51,280
Speaker 1: But it's like criss cross someday.

1744
01:35:51,680 --> 01:35:55,679
Speaker 3: But that that is the genesis of the Unlawful Enclosures Act,

1745
01:35:56,000 --> 01:36:01,599
Speaker 3: was to address uh people, landowners and to tease trying

1746
01:36:01,640 --> 01:36:07,679
Speaker 3: to strategically purchase and and block off other chunks.

1747
01:36:07,800 --> 01:36:09,559
Speaker 2: And it would be it would be fine if it

1748
01:36:09,600 --> 01:36:13,880
Speaker 2: was just that federal thing deciding it. But then you

1749
01:36:13,920 --> 01:36:17,360
Speaker 2: have states form and the states do things differently.

1750
01:36:17,479 --> 01:36:20,400
Speaker 3: And I'm sure in a lot of cases too, you know,

1751
01:36:20,560 --> 01:36:23,080
Speaker 3: like you grow up in counties where you're like, you

1752
01:36:23,160 --> 01:36:26,760
Speaker 3: do not mess with with that landowner over there, like

1753
01:36:26,840 --> 01:36:27,640
Speaker 3: everybody knows that.

1754
01:36:27,880 --> 01:36:30,519
Speaker 1: I guess my take on it. I guess the point

1755
01:36:30,520 --> 01:36:34,320
Speaker 1: I'm trying to make about it. If this had just

1756
01:36:34,360 --> 01:36:37,519
Speaker 1: been to settled again and again overtime, right, and it

1757
01:36:37,560 --> 01:36:40,960
Speaker 1: had gone to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court's

1758
01:36:41,040 --> 01:36:44,200
Speaker 1: like no corner crossing, I don't think I would. I

1759
01:36:44,240 --> 01:36:46,000
Speaker 1: don't think I would have ever been in a situation

1760
01:36:46,080 --> 01:36:50,280
Speaker 1: of sitting there looking about how to overturn that Supreme

1761
01:36:50,320 --> 01:36:53,880
Speaker 1: Court decision right, just the way there are people always

1762
01:36:53,920 --> 01:36:56,439
Speaker 1: plotting how to like overturn Supreme Court decisions. I just

1763
01:36:56,479 --> 01:37:00,400
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been in that pot of people. I'd like, Oh,

1764
01:37:00,439 --> 01:37:03,920
Speaker 1: it's just you know, it's just been decided. But in

1765
01:37:04,000 --> 01:37:08,639
Speaker 1: learning that it hasn't been decided, it's unclear. And I've

1766
01:37:08,640 --> 01:37:12,920
Speaker 1: put this, I've expressed this in interviews. It's like, if

1767
01:37:12,920 --> 01:37:15,200
Speaker 1: they are going to argue about this, I just really

1768
01:37:15,240 --> 01:37:19,519
Speaker 1: want the access side to have a really robust, clearly

1769
01:37:19,640 --> 01:37:24,120
Speaker 1: articulated argument, because I know that I'm not worried about

1770
01:37:24,160 --> 01:37:27,799
Speaker 1: that argument coming from the other side. It'll be funded,

1771
01:37:28,560 --> 01:37:31,200
Speaker 1: it'll be articulated very clearly, And it's like, if there's

1772
01:37:31,400 --> 01:37:34,320
Speaker 1: arguing yet to be done, I'm interested in the argument.

1773
01:37:34,360 --> 01:37:38,840
Speaker 1: But I would never have caught on to, like, you

1774
01:37:38,840 --> 01:37:40,519
Speaker 1: know what I mean. I would never caught on to

1775
01:37:40,920 --> 01:37:41,400
Speaker 1: trying to.

1776
01:37:42,840 --> 01:37:46,679
Speaker 6: Upset something that had been If it was just always

1777
01:37:46,760 --> 01:37:49,240
Speaker 6: a settled thing and you wanted to overturn.

1778
01:37:48,920 --> 01:37:51,040
Speaker 1: It, Yeah, it won't be like me and being mad

1779
01:37:51,080 --> 01:37:54,600
Speaker 1: about four hundred square inches of Hunter's orange, I'd like

1780
01:37:54,680 --> 01:37:58,640
Speaker 1: to overturn that. I would never have sought to overturn

1781
01:37:58,800 --> 01:38:01,240
Speaker 1: this because it would have been how I would have

1782
01:38:01,280 --> 01:38:03,880
Speaker 1: just accepted it as like that's just the way things

1783
01:38:03,880 --> 01:38:04,439
Speaker 1: are by.

1784
01:38:04,479 --> 01:38:06,960
Speaker 2: You would have accepted it the same way you accept

1785
01:38:07,240 --> 01:38:08,680
Speaker 2: a private property.

1786
01:38:08,280 --> 01:38:11,680
Speaker 1: Line I would never think. I would never be you know,

1787
01:38:11,720 --> 01:38:15,519
Speaker 1: can they really do that? Right? I'm going to go

1788
01:38:15,520 --> 01:38:17,680
Speaker 1: back to the beginning of time and find out if

1789
01:38:17,680 --> 01:38:18,800
Speaker 1: they can really do that.

1790
01:38:20,439 --> 01:38:23,479
Speaker 4: And and you know, I think that your all of

1791
01:38:23,479 --> 01:38:28,280
Speaker 4: your reaction, you know, isn't this obvious? Is how I

1792
01:38:28,320 --> 01:38:31,559
Speaker 4: felt when I first learned about this, and and I

1793
01:38:31,640 --> 01:38:33,960
Speaker 4: pulled it up just because it's funny and it fits.

1794
01:38:34,760 --> 01:38:37,200
Speaker 4: That's how the Supreme Court, at least one justice thought

1795
01:38:37,200 --> 01:38:40,000
Speaker 4: about it to one time. This case made this kind

1796
01:38:40,040 --> 01:38:41,839
Speaker 4: of issue, made it all the way to the Supreme

1797
01:38:41,880 --> 01:38:47,400
Speaker 4: Court called Leo Sheep and just Leo Sheep animal ye

1798
01:38:47,560 --> 01:38:51,160
Speaker 4: Sheep being the animal Leo Sheep Company versus United States,

1799
01:38:52,439 --> 01:38:56,439
Speaker 4: and so a thirdgood Marshall actually said during oral arguably yeah,

1800
01:38:56,479 --> 01:38:59,800
Speaker 4: he said he said this, He said this. Is it

1801
01:38:59,840 --> 01:39:02,640
Speaker 4: not true if you look at the checkerboard, that it

1802
01:39:02,680 --> 01:39:05,679
Speaker 4: would always be possible to stay on government land except

1803
01:39:05,680 --> 01:39:08,080
Speaker 4: where you had to cross at corners. So is it

1804
01:39:08,120 --> 01:39:12,160
Speaker 4: not possible that Congress you mentioned the widespread understanding that

1805
01:39:12,200 --> 01:39:14,400
Speaker 4: people could go any place they wanted to in those

1806
01:39:14,479 --> 01:39:17,400
Speaker 4: days without worrying about having somebody build a fence in

1807
01:39:17,400 --> 01:39:20,960
Speaker 4: front of them. Is it not likely that Congress did

1808
01:39:20,960 --> 01:39:23,960
Speaker 4: not dream that there would be any problem about cutting

1809
01:39:23,960 --> 01:39:27,680
Speaker 4: across a corner every mile or so. Hmmm, that was

1810
01:39:27,720 --> 01:39:31,759
Speaker 4: his question nineteen seventy nine, No, kidd, Yeah.

1811
01:39:31,760 --> 01:39:34,559
Speaker 1: Is that where this is headed? Supreme Court? Look, what's

1812
01:39:34,600 --> 01:39:36,200
Speaker 1: the pathway? Was the legal pathway?

1813
01:39:36,280 --> 01:39:40,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, so we suck the case to federal court. We

1814
01:39:40,960 --> 01:39:43,559
Speaker 4: kept it in federal court. We won it in federal court.

1815
01:39:44,080 --> 01:39:46,960
Speaker 4: Now they're appealing to the Tenth Circuit. That's the next

1816
01:39:47,040 --> 01:39:49,200
Speaker 4: part of the dance. The Tenth Circuit is the Federal

1817
01:39:49,200 --> 01:39:52,000
Speaker 4: Court of Appeals that governs Wyoming in a few other spots.

1818
01:39:54,880 --> 01:39:57,759
Speaker 3: But now it goes beyond Justice Skalbdaal correct.

1819
01:39:58,080 --> 01:40:00,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, so judgment.

1820
01:40:00,439 --> 01:40:05,559
Speaker 3: And I say that because when his opinions on the stays,

1821
01:40:06,479 --> 01:40:10,839
Speaker 3: so when the motion for it for a stay was denied,

1822
01:40:11,680 --> 01:40:15,640
Speaker 3: Justice that remained with Justice Scalvedall. Justice Scalvedell wrote his

1823
01:40:15,760 --> 01:40:20,360
Speaker 3: opinion as to why he would deny the stay, and

1824
01:40:20,560 --> 01:40:22,880
Speaker 3: in those opinions, there's a lot of things that I

1825
01:40:22,920 --> 01:40:28,759
Speaker 3: took is like very very positive for a pro public

1826
01:40:28,840 --> 01:40:30,800
Speaker 3: right to access public round standpoint.

1827
01:40:31,960 --> 01:40:32,679
Speaker 1: But now.

1828
01:40:34,000 --> 01:40:38,280
Speaker 3: I imagine those opinions will be considered by a higher court. Yes,

1829
01:40:38,439 --> 01:40:44,400
Speaker 3: but it won't be Justice Scalvedall. His opinion is on

1830
01:40:44,520 --> 01:40:47,760
Speaker 3: paper right now, and he won't be the judge of

1831
01:40:47,760 --> 01:40:48,200
Speaker 3: this again.

1832
01:40:48,320 --> 01:40:52,280
Speaker 4: Correct, Yeah, that's that's right. So so Judge Scavdal issues

1833
01:40:52,320 --> 01:40:57,679
Speaker 4: his decision down below everything that we've been talking about.

1834
01:40:57,760 --> 01:41:00,000
Speaker 4: He also says, I'm not going to stay that order.

1835
01:41:00,000 --> 01:41:01,680
Speaker 4: I'm not gonna put it on pause, not put it

1836
01:41:01,720 --> 01:41:03,880
Speaker 4: on ice. You guys can it's the law of the

1837
01:41:03,960 --> 01:41:08,439
Speaker 4: land in Wyoming. For now, they appeal to the Tenth Circuit.

1838
01:41:08,479 --> 01:41:11,479
Speaker 4: The Tenth Circuit has a broader jurisdiction. They hear appeals

1839
01:41:11,520 --> 01:41:14,799
Speaker 4: from Wyoming, but they also govern cases out of Oklahoma, Kansas,

1840
01:41:14,840 --> 01:41:19,360
Speaker 4: New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, and strangely the parts of Yellowstone

1841
01:41:19,439 --> 01:41:22,240
Speaker 4: National Park that extend into Montana and Idaho. That's the

1842
01:41:22,360 --> 01:41:26,720
Speaker 4: jurisdiction of the Tenth Circuit. They will review Judge Scavdaal's

1843
01:41:26,760 --> 01:41:30,160
Speaker 4: decision and they will either affirm it, meaning yep, we're

1844
01:41:30,160 --> 01:41:32,080
Speaker 4: good with it, they will reverse it, or they will

1845
01:41:32,120 --> 01:41:32,559
Speaker 4: reverse it.

1846
01:41:32,560 --> 01:41:34,519
Speaker 1: In part, they'll review it without all you all in

1847
01:41:34,560 --> 01:41:34,920
Speaker 1: the room.

1848
01:41:35,400 --> 01:41:39,000
Speaker 4: Well, we're gonna present arguments on paper, We're gonna probably

1849
01:41:39,200 --> 01:41:42,639
Speaker 4: have oral argument in front of them to the review.

1850
01:41:42,920 --> 01:41:44,840
Speaker 4: Part of the review process and then they will reach

1851
01:41:44,880 --> 01:41:47,240
Speaker 4: their decision without us in the room. Yeah, they will,

1852
01:41:47,360 --> 01:41:48,000
Speaker 4: but there's.

1853
01:41:47,760 --> 01:41:49,920
Speaker 2: A possibility they could just look at it and be like,

1854
01:41:50,439 --> 01:41:51,320
Speaker 2: there's no appeal.

1855
01:41:52,000 --> 01:41:55,040
Speaker 4: There are no no, no, there is an appeal. They're

1856
01:41:55,080 --> 01:41:57,439
Speaker 4: gonna they're gonna make a decision one way or another,

1857
01:41:58,760 --> 01:42:02,040
Speaker 4: probably won't have that till next year sometime. And then

1858
01:42:02,200 --> 01:42:05,919
Speaker 4: after that the losing party, whoever loses at that stage,

1859
01:42:06,280 --> 01:42:09,960
Speaker 4: would have the opportunity to petition the Supreme Court to

1860
01:42:10,040 --> 01:42:14,200
Speaker 4: take a look. Wow, so that's we're one step away.

1861
01:42:14,439 --> 01:42:17,920
Speaker 6: When you think about what you just said and that

1862
01:42:18,200 --> 01:42:21,679
Speaker 6: this might go to the Supreme Court, You've been practicing

1863
01:42:21,760 --> 01:42:23,559
Speaker 6: law for seven years.

1864
01:42:23,760 --> 01:42:26,560
Speaker 1: I mean, in your wildest dreams, did you have any.

1865
01:42:26,600 --> 01:42:30,040
Speaker 6: Idea that you'd be involved in a case and case

1866
01:42:30,160 --> 01:42:33,080
Speaker 6: so many people are interested in this, and like, I mean,

1867
01:42:33,120 --> 01:42:34,160
Speaker 6: it's got to be just.

1868
01:42:35,800 --> 01:42:36,400
Speaker 1: Like a trip.

1869
01:42:38,360 --> 01:42:43,120
Speaker 4: I have always wanted to be an appellet lawyer, and

1870
01:42:43,720 --> 01:42:47,080
Speaker 4: I when I was in law school, I was pretty nerdy.

1871
01:42:48,439 --> 01:42:51,320
Speaker 4: You can ask my wife. I used to go on

1872
01:42:51,479 --> 01:42:55,200
Speaker 4: runs and listen to Supreme Court arguments on my headphones

1873
01:42:56,840 --> 01:43:02,200
Speaker 4: and I I applied to be admitted to the Supreme

1874
01:43:02,240 --> 01:43:05,160
Speaker 4: Court last summer. Yeah, because I was at a feeling

1875
01:43:06,439 --> 01:43:08,760
Speaker 4: I've wanted a case to go and I've wanted to

1876
01:43:08,760 --> 01:43:11,479
Speaker 4: do it for this kind of one of my goals.

1877
01:43:12,520 --> 01:43:14,960
Speaker 4: So no, this is what I want to do. So

1878
01:43:15,479 --> 01:43:18,200
Speaker 4: I'm excited it's happening, and there's I'm excited that there's

1879
01:43:18,200 --> 01:43:20,479
Speaker 4: the possibility it could happen. But I'm ready to do it,

1880
01:43:20,520 --> 01:43:21,920
Speaker 4: and as long as the guys will have me, I'll

1881
01:43:22,000 --> 01:43:23,000
Speaker 4: keep doing it.

1882
01:43:23,200 --> 01:43:23,679
Speaker 1: Very cool.

1883
01:43:24,200 --> 01:43:25,959
Speaker 4: Yeah, and your.

1884
01:43:25,880 --> 01:43:28,639
Speaker 1: Oh way to the Supreme Court. Can we come down

1885
01:43:28,680 --> 01:43:31,920
Speaker 1: to record from the Supreme Court. But what do you

1886
01:43:31,920 --> 01:43:34,960
Speaker 1: think Justice Roberts Steve can be?

1887
01:43:35,120 --> 01:43:36,400
Speaker 3: Can you ask a question?

1888
01:43:36,720 --> 01:43:38,120
Speaker 1: We get a couple more chairs here.

1889
01:43:39,920 --> 01:43:42,640
Speaker 2: We didn't really get to the takeaway here at the

1890
01:43:42,720 --> 01:43:44,160
Speaker 2: end of our talking points.

1891
01:43:44,360 --> 01:43:47,439
Speaker 3: Let's do it real quick. Oh take it over, Ke,

1892
01:43:47,560 --> 01:43:49,479
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, just before you move on and Steve, you

1893
01:43:49,479 --> 01:43:51,280
Speaker 3: have a heart out in twenty minutes. I just want

1894
01:43:51,280 --> 01:43:54,000
Speaker 3: to throw that out my ears.

1895
01:43:54,040 --> 01:43:56,640
Speaker 1: Saga you want is getting closer to conclusion.

1896
01:43:57,520 --> 01:43:59,400
Speaker 2: You want to talk about the takeaway at the end.

1897
01:43:59,439 --> 01:44:00,439
Speaker 2: It's pretty important.

1898
01:44:00,520 --> 01:44:09,120
Speaker 1: I think, Oh well, he just said that. I think

1899
01:44:09,400 --> 01:44:11,559
Speaker 1: I'll read it flat out. It says what people should

1900
01:44:11,680 --> 01:44:17,479
Speaker 1: know sufficiently. You can take this to task or agree

1901
01:44:17,560 --> 01:44:23,120
Speaker 1: or whatever. Sufficiently careful, non damaging corner crossing in Wyoming

1902
01:44:23,320 --> 01:44:29,600
Speaker 1: is legal under current Wyoming law due to Ironbar decision statewide.

1903
01:44:30,120 --> 01:44:30,599
Speaker 4: That's right.

1904
01:44:31,040 --> 01:44:35,600
Speaker 1: So that does that mean that does that mean that

1905
01:44:36,960 --> 01:44:45,080
Speaker 1: there is zero legal risk of someone getting cited, hollered

1906
01:44:45,120 --> 01:44:50,680
Speaker 1: at advised against by a law enforcement official corner crossing.

1907
01:44:52,640 --> 01:44:56,200
Speaker 4: When Brown versus Board of Education was decided, Okay, that

1908
01:44:56,360 --> 01:45:01,960
Speaker 4: was the law and you probably remember the images. Yeah,

1909
01:45:02,479 --> 01:45:06,439
Speaker 4: just because something gets issued as a decision and it

1910
01:45:06,520 --> 01:45:09,640
Speaker 4: is the law, doesn't mean practically people are going to

1911
01:45:09,680 --> 01:45:13,320
Speaker 4: agree with it or follow it, especially with something that's

1912
01:45:13,320 --> 01:45:18,200
Speaker 4: contentious like this. And so what I'll say is this,

1913
01:45:19,040 --> 01:45:23,960
Speaker 4: legally speaking, I would feel you got real, real strong

1914
01:45:24,040 --> 01:45:26,400
Speaker 4: defense with that iron Bar case. And especially it's not

1915
01:45:26,560 --> 01:45:29,960
Speaker 4: civil trespass, no way, absolutely not civil trespass, because that's

1916
01:45:29,960 --> 01:45:35,759
Speaker 4: what iron Bar says. Criminal trespass is a little squishier deal,

1917
01:45:36,360 --> 01:45:39,800
Speaker 4: and local county attorneys can kind of do. They have

1918
01:45:39,800 --> 01:45:42,400
Speaker 4: a lot of discretion to bring cases even if it's

1919
01:45:42,439 --> 01:45:45,080
Speaker 4: going to be hard for them to win. So, could

1920
01:45:45,160 --> 01:45:47,360
Speaker 4: you get cited for criminal trespass? Yeah, you could get

1921
01:45:47,400 --> 01:45:49,920
Speaker 4: cited for criminal trespass? Would you win on that case?

1922
01:45:50,840 --> 01:45:52,519
Speaker 4: I would feel pretty good about your odds.

1923
01:45:53,320 --> 01:45:54,920
Speaker 1: That's the thing I wonder too, when I've been thinking

1924
01:45:54,920 --> 01:45:58,799
Speaker 1: about this, is how many how much appetite right now?

1925
01:46:02,880 --> 01:46:10,880
Speaker 1: How much appetite would even be to cite somebody knowing

1926
01:46:12,600 --> 01:46:14,280
Speaker 1: the depths that you're waiting into.

1927
01:46:15,880 --> 01:46:19,479
Speaker 2: All I can say is that there have been at

1928
01:46:19,560 --> 01:46:24,720
Speaker 2: least four or five current county and deputy county prosecutors

1929
01:46:24,720 --> 01:46:26,800
Speaker 2: across the state of Wyoming that I have seen since

1930
01:46:26,840 --> 01:46:29,320
Speaker 2: the decision came out who have all slapped me on

1931
01:46:29,360 --> 01:46:32,080
Speaker 2: the back and congratulated me. That's what I was going

1932
01:46:32,160 --> 01:46:35,120
Speaker 2: to ask you, like, did this like kind of reverberate

1933
01:46:35,600 --> 01:46:38,880
Speaker 2: all the way across Wyoming? So like the landowners are

1934
01:46:38,920 --> 01:46:43,240
Speaker 2: aware of it, County prosecutors are aware. Like everyone's kind

1935
01:46:43,240 --> 01:46:46,760
Speaker 2: of aware that this is the deal now in Wyoming, or.

1936
01:46:48,600 --> 01:46:53,920
Speaker 4: Wyoming is a small town with long streets, right, people

1937
01:46:53,960 --> 01:46:57,800
Speaker 4: know about this. Whether a prosecutor is going to be

1938
01:46:57,840 --> 01:46:59,680
Speaker 4: willing to say, you know, I'll take the bull by

1939
01:46:59,720 --> 01:47:02,000
Speaker 4: the horn and let's let's do it again, I mean,

1940
01:47:02,040 --> 01:47:05,200
Speaker 4: there wasn't much appetite for that before. I doubt the

1941
01:47:05,240 --> 01:47:08,160
Speaker 4: appetite has gone up for that, But it could happen.

1942
01:47:08,200 --> 01:47:10,519
Speaker 4: I mean, it could but like I said, I like

1943
01:47:10,560 --> 01:47:11,000
Speaker 4: your odds.

1944
01:47:11,400 --> 01:47:18,800
Speaker 1: Can I do it a nudendum for you hunters out

1945
01:47:18,800 --> 01:47:24,879
Speaker 1: there and mushroom pickers and whatnot, This was a surveyed corner.

1946
01:47:25,920 --> 01:47:32,479
Speaker 1: M Okay, pay really close attention to the words sufficiently, careful,

1947
01:47:32,479 --> 01:47:37,400
Speaker 1: non damaging corner crossing. This is a surveyed corner where

1948
01:47:37,800 --> 01:47:42,760
Speaker 1: the exact location of this corner has been certified.

1949
01:47:43,560 --> 01:47:43,760
Speaker 4: Right.

1950
01:47:44,720 --> 01:47:51,120
Speaker 1: Fences just the existence of fences do not necessarily denote

1951
01:47:51,600 --> 01:47:53,240
Speaker 1: the location of property lines.

1952
01:47:53,320 --> 01:47:55,720
Speaker 5: And I'd like to add to that, your on X

1953
01:47:56,000 --> 01:47:59,920
Speaker 5: is unfortunately not going to be to the specifically agree

1954
01:48:00,080 --> 01:48:01,320
Speaker 5: that you're that you're talking about.

1955
01:48:01,360 --> 01:48:03,280
Speaker 3: It's going to get you in the ballpark.

1956
01:48:03,280 --> 01:48:05,720
Speaker 1: But you need to pin. And this is not a

1957
01:48:06,120 --> 01:48:10,360
Speaker 1: I mean, the app I use most in life, outside

1958
01:48:10,400 --> 01:48:14,920
Speaker 1: of probably my text app is on X. I I

1959
01:48:15,080 --> 01:48:17,559
Speaker 1: wouldn't want to live without on X. It is the

1960
01:48:17,560 --> 01:48:22,800
Speaker 1: most valuable hunting tool digital hunting tool that I can

1961
01:48:22,840 --> 01:48:30,200
Speaker 1: think of. But it doesn't show my property line where

1962
01:48:30,200 --> 01:48:32,719
Speaker 1: it sits enough that you're putting. Think about what we're saying.

1963
01:48:33,720 --> 01:48:36,559
Speaker 1: You're walking on a checkboard and you're placing your feet

1964
01:48:36,720 --> 01:48:39,760
Speaker 1: so carefully that you're on the black and you never

1965
01:48:39,880 --> 01:48:43,759
Speaker 1: touch the red. That is not what any digital mapping

1966
01:48:43,800 --> 01:48:46,160
Speaker 1: app has never told you that it's delivering you that

1967
01:48:46,280 --> 01:48:47,200
Speaker 1: level of accuracy.

1968
01:48:47,280 --> 01:48:49,320
Speaker 2: Right, you could be three feet off and breaking the law.

1969
01:48:49,400 --> 01:48:51,120
Speaker 6: Well, and it's not just the app. I mean, it's

1970
01:48:51,200 --> 01:48:54,800
Speaker 6: just the the techno. It's not like specific to on X.

1971
01:48:56,600 --> 01:48:58,519
Speaker 3: It's how much so, I mean, it's it's a very

1972
01:48:58,560 --> 01:49:03,559
Speaker 3: requisition of your and the Justice Govdal's stay. At the end,

1973
01:49:03,640 --> 01:49:08,200
Speaker 3: he says, I want to take this opportunity. The defendants

1974
01:49:08,200 --> 01:49:10,479
Speaker 3: in this case peaceably crossed. Do you like how I'm plan?

1975
01:49:10,600 --> 01:49:13,679
Speaker 3: Lawyer Ryan, I like you all right? Defendants peaceably crossed

1976
01:49:13,680 --> 01:49:16,960
Speaker 3: from public land to public land in the checkerboard area

1977
01:49:17,040 --> 01:49:21,040
Speaker 3: on foot, without touching the surface of any privately owned land,

1978
01:49:21,520 --> 01:49:25,080
Speaker 3: and without damaging any private property. Those were the facts

1979
01:49:25,120 --> 01:49:28,400
Speaker 3: presented to this Court for decision, and the Court stresses

1980
01:49:28,439 --> 01:49:32,200
Speaker 3: here the importance of public land users accessing public land

1981
01:49:32,479 --> 01:49:36,679
Speaker 3: and only public land in a law abiding, respectful manner.

1982
01:49:37,320 --> 01:49:41,280
Speaker 3: A physical confrontation with the private landowner, which we could

1983
01:49:41,360 --> 01:49:44,280
Speaker 3: get into instigated by a member of the public, may

1984
01:49:44,360 --> 01:49:47,760
Speaker 3: prove to be the single surest way for plaintiff to

1985
01:49:47,800 --> 01:49:50,920
Speaker 3: secure a stay pending appeal, because the likelihood of irreparable

1986
01:49:50,920 --> 01:49:54,080
Speaker 3: harm would no longer be speculative at this point.

1987
01:49:55,960 --> 01:49:56,479
Speaker 5: In this.

1988
01:49:58,400 --> 01:50:01,519
Speaker 3: Order to deny the stay. There's also language that that

1989
01:50:01,680 --> 01:50:06,240
Speaker 3: just says, like it was crystal clear the intent of

1990
01:50:06,280 --> 01:50:12,040
Speaker 3: the hunters was to move through this zone. So I've

1991
01:50:12,040 --> 01:50:15,200
Speaker 3: certainly said in my podcast, if you were going to

1992
01:50:15,240 --> 01:50:20,479
Speaker 3: attempt this act as if eyes are upon you, and

1993
01:50:20,600 --> 01:50:25,880
Speaker 3: you locate the corner, and you move through that zone,

1994
01:50:26,400 --> 01:50:30,599
Speaker 3: don't stop then dink around and pick shit up, for

1995
01:50:30,640 --> 01:50:34,160
Speaker 3: God's sake, Just move through, clearly with the intent of

1996
01:50:34,240 --> 01:50:37,759
Speaker 3: moving from one area of public into the next area

1997
01:50:37,760 --> 01:50:38,240
Speaker 3: of public.

1998
01:50:38,400 --> 01:50:41,120
Speaker 1: The worst thing that could happen right now, if you're

1999
01:50:41,160 --> 01:50:43,519
Speaker 1: an access proponent, the worst thing that could happen right

2000
01:50:43,520 --> 01:50:45,800
Speaker 1: now is a bunch of people fill their middle finger

2001
01:50:45,880 --> 01:50:48,120
Speaker 1: up in the air and start willing, nearly jumping over

2002
01:50:48,240 --> 01:50:52,840
Speaker 1: fences corner fences. Yes, and in the in this judges order,

2003
01:50:53,000 --> 01:50:56,200
Speaker 1: not where that's not where this sits right now. There.

2004
01:50:56,200 --> 01:51:00,800
Speaker 1: If this becomes clarified, there will be My prediction is

2005
01:51:00,800 --> 01:51:03,320
Speaker 1: there will be a lot of attention paid to strategically

2006
01:51:03,360 --> 01:51:08,160
Speaker 1: locating important corners, and there's a way that this will

2007
01:51:08,160 --> 01:51:08,559
Speaker 1: play out.

2008
01:51:08,600 --> 01:51:10,559
Speaker 5: But this is how they got to raise some money

2009
01:51:10,600 --> 01:51:12,160
Speaker 5: to get these pisiness.

2010
01:51:12,479 --> 01:51:17,599
Speaker 1: Like you out arguing with you are arguing with with

2011
01:51:17,880 --> 01:51:23,599
Speaker 1: landowners and ranchers about what you don't own those elk Yeah,

2012
01:51:24,360 --> 01:51:27,519
Speaker 1: where their fence and it's just it's just not how

2013
01:51:27,560 --> 01:51:28,760
Speaker 1: this needs to gop Do.

2014
01:51:28,680 --> 01:51:31,599
Speaker 3: You need to read the opinion in the stay, because

2015
01:51:31,640 --> 01:51:35,080
Speaker 3: I mean, it's very clear that all the things that

2016
01:51:35,120 --> 01:51:37,640
Speaker 3: we've read in the paper and including a lot of

2017
01:51:37,680 --> 01:51:40,559
Speaker 3: things that we covered here today which was very thorough,

2018
01:51:41,400 --> 01:51:48,080
Speaker 3: there's still a lot of context that was thought about

2019
01:51:49,080 --> 01:51:53,240
Speaker 3: from Justice Skobdal, some of which included like Steve was saying,

2020
01:51:53,240 --> 01:51:54,280
Speaker 3: wave in your middle finger.

2021
01:51:56,200 --> 01:51:56,320
Speaker 1: Uh.

2022
01:51:57,000 --> 01:52:01,439
Speaker 3: It alludes to the fact that there were calls to

2023
01:52:01,800 --> 01:52:07,040
Speaker 3: Iron Bar Holdings and some some veiled threats and probably

2024
01:52:07,160 --> 01:52:12,000
Speaker 3: just some some fuck us. But that actually made it

2025
01:52:12,280 --> 01:52:15,840
Speaker 3: into the justice's opinion, So you.

2026
01:52:15,800 --> 01:52:17,920
Speaker 1: Gotta he didn't ignore that, did not.

2027
01:52:17,960 --> 01:52:22,080
Speaker 3: Ignore that, took it into consideration because Iron Bar's counsel

2028
01:52:22,720 --> 01:52:26,400
Speaker 3: brought those points up, because you know that would be

2029
01:52:26,439 --> 01:52:30,400
Speaker 3: an issue to order a stay of opinion, is if

2030
01:52:31,360 --> 01:52:34,800
Speaker 3: it was thought by the judge that there were going

2031
01:52:34,840 --> 01:52:41,880
Speaker 3: to be some physical ramifications that could hurt somebody if

2032
01:52:41,880 --> 01:52:46,320
Speaker 3: the stay wasn't issued. Kind of kind of crappy, but

2033
01:52:46,520 --> 01:52:48,920
Speaker 3: more or less right there, Ryan, Well.

2034
01:52:48,920 --> 01:52:51,000
Speaker 1: No, I think that. I think that just just just

2035
01:52:51,040 --> 01:52:52,920
Speaker 1: so people know, because if I was listening to this,

2036
01:52:53,040 --> 01:52:54,400
Speaker 1: you know, while I was trying to work on something

2037
01:52:54,439 --> 01:52:58,519
Speaker 1: by garage, I might have missed this. But stay is

2038
01:52:58,720 --> 01:53:02,799
Speaker 1: when the decision gets made, but they know it's gonna

2039
01:53:03,080 --> 01:53:06,439
Speaker 1: be appealed, so they they basically come in and say,

2040
01:53:06,479 --> 01:53:09,719
Speaker 1: here's my decision, but we're gonna stay on like nothing.

2041
01:53:09,760 --> 01:53:12,120
Speaker 1: I'm not changing anything yet because I'm gonna wait for

2042
01:53:12,160 --> 01:53:15,400
Speaker 1: the appeals process to play out. So we're not gonna

2043
01:53:15,479 --> 01:53:19,160
Speaker 1: act on what I've decided, but that's my decision, and

2044
01:53:19,200 --> 01:53:22,479
Speaker 1: then we're gonna wait down the road. For greater clarity,

2045
01:53:22,560 --> 01:53:24,599
Speaker 1: Is that is that a fair way of describing a stay.

2046
01:53:24,680 --> 01:53:27,600
Speaker 4: It's a fair way of describing it. Just also to

2047
01:53:27,680 --> 01:53:29,599
Speaker 4: be clear the note the stay was denied.

2048
01:53:29,880 --> 01:53:32,600
Speaker 1: But I'm saying if everybody was out there having fistfights

2049
01:53:32,600 --> 01:53:34,800
Speaker 1: and stuffly you might be like, you know what, okay,

2050
01:53:34,880 --> 01:53:40,000
Speaker 1: never mind, everybody, stop, the stay is in place. This

2051
01:53:40,080 --> 01:53:42,040
Speaker 1: is getting out of hand. We're gonna, you know, yeah,

2052
01:53:42,240 --> 01:53:42,760
Speaker 1: it down the road.

2053
01:53:42,880 --> 01:53:45,080
Speaker 4: And and and and to to just echo everything you

2054
01:53:45,080 --> 01:53:48,519
Speaker 4: guys have been saying, you gotta find the survey stake.

2055
01:53:48,640 --> 01:53:52,040
Speaker 4: You've got to physically find it with your eyes and

2056
01:53:52,040 --> 01:53:54,640
Speaker 4: and you've got to cross it carefully. Use use you

2057
01:53:54,640 --> 01:53:57,200
Speaker 4: can use on X or a compass to help direction

2058
01:53:57,400 --> 01:54:00,160
Speaker 4: yourself and orient your sottle orient for sure. Yeah, but

2059
01:54:00,200 --> 01:54:02,040
Speaker 4: you but but you can't rely on it, like you're

2060
01:54:02,080 --> 01:54:04,719
Speaker 4: saying to your footfalls, you got to use your eyeballs

2061
01:54:04,760 --> 01:54:05,479
Speaker 4: and direct yourself.

2062
01:54:05,880 --> 01:54:09,960
Speaker 2: Is there a process, like if you can't find that marker,

2063
01:54:10,240 --> 01:54:15,200
Speaker 2: is there a process to request like a survey or, Like,

2064
01:54:15,320 --> 01:54:18,919
Speaker 2: let's say I identify a corner where I can access

2065
01:54:19,000 --> 01:54:21,680
Speaker 2: whatever a few thousand acres of public land, but I

2066
01:54:21,720 --> 01:54:26,160
Speaker 2: can't like identify clearly where exactly that corner is. Like

2067
01:54:26,240 --> 01:54:31,200
Speaker 2: can you contact a federal agency and say it's not there,

2068
01:54:31,280 --> 01:54:32,200
Speaker 2: I can't find.

2069
01:54:32,040 --> 01:54:35,200
Speaker 4: Like yeah, so you you may be able to contact

2070
01:54:35,240 --> 01:54:38,280
Speaker 4: your BLM field office and notify them of that particular

2071
01:54:38,440 --> 01:54:41,240
Speaker 4: section corner missing it's survey steak because because that has

2072
01:54:41,280 --> 01:54:43,040
Speaker 4: to be a thing. Oh, it happens, for sure, because

2073
01:54:43,080 --> 01:54:45,240
Speaker 4: because you know, the old survey steaks were dinosaur bones

2074
01:54:45,360 --> 01:54:47,040
Speaker 4: or whatever they found in the field, and they would

2075
01:54:47,080 --> 01:54:48,800
Speaker 4: just pone it and they just pount it into the

2076
01:54:48,800 --> 01:54:51,920
Speaker 4: ground and now they are these like uniforms, you know,

2077
01:54:51,960 --> 01:54:54,880
Speaker 4: stainless steel or whatever. They are called monument Every now

2078
01:54:54,880 --> 01:54:57,840
Speaker 4: and then you trip on the verb is the verb

2079
01:54:57,920 --> 01:55:01,240
Speaker 4: is monumenting because because in the even if it's wrong,

2080
01:55:01,280 --> 01:55:03,160
Speaker 4: you talk about a lot of people's property lines are wrong.

2081
01:55:03,200 --> 01:55:05,120
Speaker 4: But the way the law works with those survey steaks,

2082
01:55:05,320 --> 01:55:07,800
Speaker 4: the survey steak is always perfect in the law does

2083
01:55:07,840 --> 01:55:10,839
Speaker 4: not matter even if it is wrong. The survey steak

2084
01:55:10,920 --> 01:55:16,000
Speaker 4: is monumented. It is correct. It is always correct. So yeah,

2085
01:55:16,120 --> 01:55:18,480
Speaker 4: you should notify feel on field office and maybe they

2086
01:55:18,520 --> 01:55:20,120
Speaker 4: can get a resurveyed or something like that.

2087
01:55:20,400 --> 01:55:21,720
Speaker 1: You know, you know, when you hear the term down

2088
01:55:21,760 --> 01:55:24,240
Speaker 1: to brass tacks, you want to know what my understanding

2089
01:55:24,240 --> 01:55:26,960
Speaker 1: of that is? Caps right there is yeah that if

2090
01:55:26,960 --> 01:55:30,280
Speaker 1: you wanted to get really a survey buddy told me

2091
01:55:30,320 --> 01:55:33,600
Speaker 1: it's I never fact checked him on it. On top

2092
01:55:33,640 --> 01:55:39,000
Speaker 1: of that, there's like a brass plate and that's basically it.

2093
01:55:39,320 --> 01:55:43,520
Speaker 1: But since these corners are infinitely small, the lines are

2094
01:55:43,560 --> 01:55:46,520
Speaker 1: infinitely small. To get down to brass tax is there's

2095
01:55:46,560 --> 01:55:49,680
Speaker 1: like a circle and within that you can place a

2096
01:55:49,880 --> 01:55:56,120
Speaker 1: clarifying pin. You can place a tack into that. If

2097
01:55:56,120 --> 01:55:59,320
Speaker 1: for greater clarification around that. Whatever the hell one inner

2098
01:56:00,040 --> 01:56:02,120
Speaker 1: and inch circles. I don't know.

2099
01:56:03,080 --> 01:56:08,200
Speaker 3: It may be true, some people say people are saying

2100
01:56:08,840 --> 01:56:13,160
Speaker 3: people are or I have found those things. I mean,

2101
01:56:13,320 --> 01:56:14,720
Speaker 3: that would have been a hell of a job. I've

2102
01:56:14,720 --> 01:56:19,200
Speaker 3: found those things in the most bizarre places and have

2103
01:56:19,360 --> 01:56:22,320
Speaker 3: always taken a picture of them. But then I always

2104
01:56:22,320 --> 01:56:24,280
Speaker 3: get around to thinking, like, you don't want to show

2105
01:56:24,280 --> 01:56:28,320
Speaker 3: that off happens to say, exactly where you were.

2106
01:56:28,440 --> 01:56:31,040
Speaker 10: We found one in Alaska recently, and I could not

2107
01:56:31,360 --> 01:56:37,760
Speaker 10: picture the person who'd like gotten there and then figured

2108
01:56:37,760 --> 01:56:39,280
Speaker 10: that out and drove that into ground.

2109
01:56:39,600 --> 01:56:42,920
Speaker 1: Right. Oh yeah, they had been thinking like who.

2110
01:56:45,400 --> 01:56:50,360
Speaker 3: Absolutely, yeah, because there are just obvious places where even

2111
01:56:50,760 --> 01:56:53,640
Speaker 3: you know, one hundred years ago, one hundred and fifty

2112
01:56:53,720 --> 01:56:57,880
Speaker 3: years ago, were you have this mindset of like, oh, yeah,

2113
01:56:58,000 --> 01:57:00,280
Speaker 3: the tax base is coming, this is all going to

2114
01:57:00,320 --> 01:57:00,600
Speaker 3: be home.

2115
01:57:00,640 --> 01:57:01,080
Speaker 1: Standd.

2116
01:57:01,240 --> 01:57:03,760
Speaker 3: There are plenty of places where you are standing you're like,

2117
01:57:03,880 --> 01:57:04,560
Speaker 3: not this place.

2118
01:57:04,800 --> 01:57:08,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I get it, get it, I get it. No

2119
01:57:08,320 --> 01:57:11,680
Speaker 1: one is ever gonna come look for this. This is

2120
01:57:11,840 --> 01:57:14,360
Speaker 1: never gonna wind up being a thing where people are

2121
01:57:14,400 --> 01:57:15,200
Speaker 1: standing here.

2122
01:57:15,120 --> 01:57:18,480
Speaker 4: Arguing little did they know?

2123
01:57:19,160 --> 01:57:21,440
Speaker 1: All right, well thanks for coming on, man, Yeah, absolutely,

2124
01:57:21,440 --> 01:57:22,960
Speaker 1: can you come back when something happens.

2125
01:57:23,360 --> 01:57:24,080
Speaker 4: Happy to do it.

2126
01:57:24,200 --> 01:57:26,120
Speaker 3: Oh and what what a timeline?

2127
01:57:26,280 --> 01:57:28,880
Speaker 1: So I go down to the Supreme Court with you?

2128
01:57:27,920 --> 01:57:30,680
Speaker 4: You can yeah? There there's you gotta get in line.

2129
01:57:30,880 --> 01:57:32,720
Speaker 4: There's public seating, and there's limited.

2130
01:57:33,520 --> 01:57:35,720
Speaker 1: Right up there with you.

2131
01:57:37,480 --> 01:57:38,600
Speaker 4: What I can do?

2132
01:57:38,680 --> 01:57:43,560
Speaker 3: I got an ear thing, So I gotta timeline one

2133
01:57:43,560 --> 01:57:43,960
Speaker 3: more time.

2134
01:57:44,080 --> 01:57:47,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, So the the deadlines for some of the

2135
01:57:47,560 --> 01:57:50,480
Speaker 4: appeal has been extended a little bit for various reasons.

2136
01:57:50,480 --> 01:57:55,320
Speaker 4: So we expect the very first volley of argument will

2137
01:57:55,320 --> 01:57:57,600
Speaker 4: come out next month from them. From them, they will

2138
01:57:57,640 --> 01:58:02,120
Speaker 4: filew the first brief, UH should be November sixth. Then

2139
01:58:02,200 --> 01:58:05,080
Speaker 4: we will file an answering brief, either sometime in December

2140
01:58:05,160 --> 01:58:08,200
Speaker 4: or later, depending on if we need more time. Then

2141
01:58:08,200 --> 01:58:11,360
Speaker 4: they will get one more crack at responding to our brief,

2142
01:58:11,680 --> 01:58:13,640
Speaker 4: and then it'll be up to the Tenth Circuit to

2143
01:58:13,720 --> 01:58:16,360
Speaker 4: set argument and make a decision. I would expect a

2144
01:58:16,480 --> 01:58:20,320
Speaker 4: decision one way or another sometime late spring or summer

2145
01:58:20,360 --> 01:58:21,600
Speaker 4: of next year, if not later.

2146
01:58:22,120 --> 01:58:25,000
Speaker 1: If I was the listing agent or the whatever or

2147
01:58:25,040 --> 01:58:29,720
Speaker 1: the lawyer who put that deal together, I would be sweating.

2148
01:58:31,280 --> 01:58:34,040
Speaker 1: I would be sweating. Yeah, to be like, at some

2149
01:58:34,320 --> 01:58:36,600
Speaker 1: point someone's gonna have a question for me.

2150
01:58:36,800 --> 01:58:39,560
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of real estate agents around

2151
01:58:39,560 --> 01:58:40,040
Speaker 2: the country.

2152
01:58:40,160 --> 01:58:41,600
Speaker 4: I was looking at a little bit.

2153
01:58:41,720 --> 01:58:43,840
Speaker 6: I mean I saw a property listing the other day

2154
01:58:43,920 --> 01:58:48,160
Speaker 6: that probably has a brilliant where you're like that mentioned

2155
01:58:48,160 --> 01:58:52,840
Speaker 6: exclusive access to public lands that didn't have access. I mean,

2156
01:58:52,880 --> 01:58:55,480
Speaker 6: it's like when you start looking for it.

2157
01:58:55,720 --> 01:58:58,080
Speaker 3: Oh, I mean, there's there's one up by us, and

2158
01:58:58,120 --> 01:59:00,520
Speaker 3: it's like part of the benefit of our h o A,

2159
01:59:01,160 --> 01:59:04,480
Speaker 3: which is another evil, freaking entity that I would love

2160
01:59:04,520 --> 01:59:05,160
Speaker 3: to see burn.

2161
01:59:05,040 --> 01:59:05,520
Speaker 4: On the ground.

2162
01:59:05,600 --> 01:59:08,960
Speaker 1: I had no idea. I will never make that mistake, man.

2163
01:59:10,040 --> 01:59:11,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, but there's one in Anus. It's like part of

2164
01:59:11,720 --> 01:59:14,320
Speaker 3: the benefit of our h o A is exclusive access

2165
01:59:14,720 --> 01:59:18,640
Speaker 3: to everyone's public ground. I just want to go in

2166
01:59:18,640 --> 01:59:20,880
Speaker 3: there and I want to buy a lot, and I

2167
01:59:21,240 --> 01:59:23,640
Speaker 3: want to be like, bring on the lawsuits, your sons

2168
01:59:23,640 --> 01:59:28,640
Speaker 3: of bitches, all right.

2169
01:59:28,600 --> 01:59:30,760
Speaker 1: Thanks for coming on, man. So in the meantime you

2170
01:59:30,800 --> 01:59:32,320
Speaker 1: probably have to do all this stuff too, right, You

2171
01:59:32,320 --> 01:59:35,240
Speaker 1: got other clients, absolutely, Yeah, once you plug your law firm.

2172
01:59:35,440 --> 01:59:40,480
Speaker 1: Uh Fuller and Sammarad we're in Casper. Uh gifts call

2173
01:59:40,560 --> 01:59:42,600
Speaker 1: three h seven. So what kind of trouble, what kind

2174
01:59:42,640 --> 01:59:44,120
Speaker 1: of trouble. Are you looking for down there?

2175
01:59:44,200 --> 01:59:45,040
Speaker 4: Anything? I mean?

2176
01:59:45,080 --> 01:59:46,400
Speaker 1: I I like divorce.

2177
01:59:46,520 --> 01:59:47,080
Speaker 4: I like to fight.

2178
01:59:47,160 --> 01:59:49,000
Speaker 3: I don't like to stop ass kickings.

2179
01:59:49,520 --> 01:59:51,600
Speaker 4: I do trucks stop ass kickings.

2180
01:59:51,600 --> 01:59:54,040
Speaker 3: Were joking a chaser?

2181
01:59:54,120 --> 01:59:56,400
Speaker 4: No, I try to avoid that too. I just I

2182
01:59:56,560 --> 01:59:57,040
Speaker 4: like to fight.

2183
01:59:57,240 --> 01:59:59,280
Speaker 1: So what's your favorite? What's what's the best call you

2184
01:59:59,280 --> 01:59:59,560
Speaker 1: can get?

2185
02:00:00,120 --> 02:00:02,680
Speaker 4: Defense of any kind? I like doing those, like helping

2186
02:00:02,720 --> 02:00:05,960
Speaker 4: criminals out. Do you? I like helping people steel.

2187
02:00:06,000 --> 02:00:09,720
Speaker 3: You're joking on the way over that. There's still plenty

2188
02:00:09,760 --> 02:00:13,560
Speaker 3: of rural Wyoming that is not dissimilar from rural eastern Montana,

2189
02:00:13,600 --> 02:00:16,000
Speaker 3: where people are likely to come in the door and

2190
02:00:16,040 --> 02:00:18,880
Speaker 3: be like, you know that drinking and driving thing. They're

2191
02:00:18,960 --> 02:00:20,200
Speaker 3: actually serious about it.

2192
02:00:21,840 --> 02:00:22,880
Speaker 5: Do you ever do that kind of work?

2193
02:00:22,920 --> 02:00:23,000
Speaker 9: Oh?

2194
02:00:23,080 --> 02:00:25,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, get a lot of that. Got a trial

2195
02:00:25,840 --> 02:00:28,800
Speaker 4: coming up from cody in November, so I'll be off

2196
02:00:28,840 --> 02:00:29,200
Speaker 4: doing that.

2197
02:00:29,280 --> 02:00:30,480
Speaker 1: And you do child custody.

2198
02:00:30,840 --> 02:00:32,800
Speaker 4: I try to avoid it, have done it, but I

2199
02:00:32,840 --> 02:00:35,280
Speaker 4: try to avoid it. I don't like that stuff. Yep,

2200
02:00:35,800 --> 02:00:36,720
Speaker 4: that's not as much fun.

2201
02:00:37,920 --> 02:00:40,880
Speaker 1: So how far what's your range? How far do you go?

2202
02:00:41,000 --> 02:00:43,080
Speaker 4: I do the whole state of Wyoming, but I'm barred

2203
02:00:43,120 --> 02:00:46,200
Speaker 4: in Nevada and Ohio too, but I'm inactive in those

2204
02:00:46,200 --> 02:00:48,240
Speaker 4: states because I don't really practice there anymore. So if

2205
02:00:48,240 --> 02:00:51,040
Speaker 4: you if your law dog and it's in Wyoming, yep, Wyoming,

2206
02:00:51,080 --> 02:00:51,720
Speaker 4: that's where it's.

2207
02:00:51,560 --> 02:00:54,560
Speaker 3: At, you're gonna get just raked over the coals by

2208
02:00:54,600 --> 02:00:58,400
Speaker 3: not using the a your for your alma longer.

2209
02:00:58,480 --> 02:01:02,080
Speaker 4: You know that the Ohio state, Yeah, I know, I know.

2210
02:01:01,760 --> 02:01:03,840
Speaker 1: I don't know about I don't understand this, but I

2211
02:01:03,840 --> 02:01:08,320
Speaker 1: don't have tos. I never get my continues to be

2212
02:01:08,320 --> 02:01:08,800
Speaker 1: a problem.

2213
02:01:09,600 --> 02:01:13,280
Speaker 9: Oh all.

2214
02:01:14,720 --> 02:01:26,480
Speaker 8: Right on, all the seal gray shine like silver in

2215
02:01:26,640 --> 02:01:27,200
Speaker 8: the sun.

2216
02:01:31,080 --> 02:01:36,880
Speaker 1: Right right along.

2217
02:01:37,840 --> 02:01:42,760
Speaker 11: Sweetheart, were done beat this damn horse to death.

2218
02:01:44,000 --> 02:01:46,240
Speaker 5: Taking a new one. Ride.

2219
02:01:49,680 --> 02:01:55,320
Speaker 11: We're done beat this damn horse today, So take a

2220
02:01:55,440 --> 02:02:03,240
Speaker 11: new one and ride on.