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Speaker 1: Take a deep breath in through your nose.

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Speaker 2: Hold it.

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Speaker 1: Now, release slowly again deep in heale hold release, repeating

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Speaker 1: internally to yourself as you connect to my voice. I

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Speaker 1: am deeply, deeply well. I I am deeply well. I

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Speaker 1: am deeply well well. I'm Debbie Brown and this is

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Speaker 1: the Deeply Well Podcast. Welcome to Deeply Well, a soft

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Speaker 1: place to land on your journey. A podcast for those

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Speaker 1: that are curious, creative, and ready to expand in higher

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Speaker 1: consciousness and self care. I'm Debbie Brown. This is where

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Speaker 1: we heal, this is where we become. Welcome to today's

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, we are going to get into some new

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Speaker 1: territory that we haven't really explored actually in so many

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Speaker 1: seasons of Deeply Well relationships. This is an area that

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Speaker 1: we have kind of dabbled in a little bit, but

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Speaker 1: it is my number one most requested type of show

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Speaker 1: to do. And I'm really excited today because we have

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Speaker 1: someone so special that has an incredible new book out

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Speaker 1: that is going to guide us through what it is

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Speaker 1: to be in healthy relationship and to also be a

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Speaker 1: sovereign being, which if you're on this path and you're

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Speaker 1: listening to this show, I can almost guarantee that that

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Speaker 1: is the intention and that is what we are always

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Speaker 1: exploring here. But it doesn't mean that you have to

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Speaker 1: be off on that island all alone. So we are

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Speaker 1: going to be learning today, We're going to be expanding.

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Speaker 1: Highly recommend grabbing a journal, Highly recommend bringing something supportive

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Speaker 1: nearby just in case some things start to come up.

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Speaker 1: Today's episode, we are joined by Denay Logan. She is

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Speaker 1: a marriage and family therapist with an orientation in depth psychology,

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Speaker 1: often referred to as the psychology of the soul.

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Speaker 2: She's a group.

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Speaker 1: Facilitator and a cohost of the podcast Cheaper Than Therapy.

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Speaker 1: She has a master's degree in counseling psychology and is

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Speaker 1: notably the mentee of acclaimed psychotherapist Esther Perrell. Denay is

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Speaker 1: passionate about sharing tools and strategies to cultivate spiritual awareness,

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Speaker 1: understanding the current shifts taking place within our societal structures,

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Speaker 1: and empowering others and understanding how they can live the

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Speaker 1: most fulfilling lives possible. Her debut book, Sovereign Love, hits

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Speaker 1: everywhere May twenty eighth, So hopefully at the time you

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Speaker 1: listen to the show, it's already out and you can

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Speaker 1: pick it up and if not, you can pre order it.

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Speaker 1: So go to all the places that you love to

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Speaker 1: get books. And it is from Sound True.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the show. Oh my gosh, Debbie, thank you.

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Speaker 2: Your voice is just so lovely. And I'm listening to

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Speaker 2: you as you're doing that interim like you're like a

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Speaker 2: soft place to live yourself. I'm like, I'm just gonna

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Speaker 2: accept back with Debbie and listening you speak.

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Speaker 1: Oh don't be making me blessed. Thank you so much it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: part of my journey has been using my voice in

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Speaker 1: the way that I believe God wants me to. So

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Speaker 1: I really appreciate that so much.

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Speaker 2: Beautiful. This is a big.

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Speaker 1: This is a big category of life and conversation. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I'm so excited to have this conversation with you.

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Speaker 1: I think kind of grounding it. I'll ground it first

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Speaker 1: with a little a little share in that as a

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Speaker 1: lot of listeners from this show know well, I am

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Speaker 1: a sovereign being. That is my path and I have

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Speaker 1: been deeply learning about love since I got divorced about

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Speaker 1: three and a half years ago, and it's been so

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Speaker 1: illuminating kind of coming to that space of loving and

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Speaker 1: being open to be loved from the position of being

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Speaker 1: at the depth of healing. I am currently at the

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Speaker 1: depth of self, the depth of connection consciousness. But even

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Speaker 1: in all of that, and I think this is the

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Speaker 1: funny thing for so many of us, where it's like,

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Speaker 1: you're on the journey, so You're like, while I'm on

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Speaker 1: the journey, so then all of life is going to

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Speaker 1: be great. It's like, and we're still on earth, and

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Speaker 1: we're still surrounded by everyone who has their own spiritual

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Speaker 1: curriculum and are at different places of that journey, and

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Speaker 1: so this is still an area that can be deeply

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Speaker 1: nourished by intention and work and thoughtfulness and care and cultivating.

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Speaker 2: So I'm so excited to.

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Speaker 1: Explore that with you your book Sovereign Love. First of all,

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Speaker 1: the title, can you walk me through that definition? What

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Speaker 1: is sovereign love?

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Speaker 2: You know, I think so much of what you were

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Speaker 2: just saying speaks to why I decided to title this

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Speaker 2: book Sovereign Love, because so much of what we have

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Speaker 2: understood up to this point about love and relationships has

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Speaker 2: really been designed or constructed by an external authority telling

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Speaker 2: us what relationships should be, should look like, what is

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Speaker 2: quote normal in our relationship structures, right, And what I

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Speaker 2: think we're finding, in accordance with what you were saying,

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Speaker 2: is as we really do a lot of this like

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Speaker 2: deeper work and attempt to know ourselves well and define

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Speaker 2: ourselves for ourselves, there's a lot that's sort of out

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Speaker 2: of alignment in terms of the way that we are

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Speaker 2: loving one another. And you know, I certainly witness it

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Speaker 2: within the couples that I work with every day, but

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Speaker 2: also within my own life. I was a yoga teacher

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Speaker 2: for so many years, and it's so funny, Debbie. People

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Speaker 2: used to say to me all the time, like, oh

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Speaker 2: my gosh, your husband must just like love coming home

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Speaker 2: to you, Like you're soothing, you know, energy, and you're

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Speaker 2: just like so loving. And I was like, oh, totally,

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Speaker 2: totally right, And that wasn't the case, right. There were

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Speaker 2: so many aspects of my own shadow that were sort

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Speaker 2: of playing out in my relationship dynamics, which is the

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Speaker 2: case for all of us. But I think we have

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Speaker 2: been living in what I speak to in this book

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Speaker 2: that I wrote a really wounded masculine paradigm for centuries now.

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Speaker 2: And when I talk about a masculine paradigm or when

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Speaker 2: I talk about patriarchy. I'm not talking about masculinity in

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Speaker 2: the context of gender so much as I'm talking about

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Speaker 2: structures of dominance, right, And there's a way that we

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Speaker 2: are doing relationships from a really sort of wounded masculine perspective,

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Speaker 2: which is like how it looks on the outside versus

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Speaker 2: like how it really feels deep within us, whether we're

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Speaker 2: in alignment with the people that we really want to be,

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Speaker 2: versus like acting out all of these paradigms that are

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Speaker 2: really based in fear. And so, as my marriage ended,

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Speaker 2: and I like to say changed form because my kiddo's

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Speaker 2: dad is still one of my best friends in the world,

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Speaker 2: and I think we were both really committed to how

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Speaker 2: do we do this thing of allowing this relationship to evolve,

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Speaker 2: and it did need to evolve. We got married when

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Speaker 2: we were you know, fairly young, like mid twenties, and

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Speaker 2: realized that after being together for twelve years, it was

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Speaker 2: just not true anymore. There was so much about who

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Speaker 2: each of us wanted to be and where our lives

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Speaker 2: were headed that just weren't aligned. And so much of

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Speaker 2: what we're taught about relationships is that, like when a

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Speaker 2: relationship ends, that means we've failed, right, right, and we

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Speaker 2: should be devastated and we should feel like that means

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Speaker 2: we're not lovable or all of these narratives that we're

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Speaker 2: taught to believe about ourselves that you know, as you

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Speaker 2: were speaking to and I did within myself a lot

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Speaker 2: of work that made me feel like that's just not

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Speaker 2: true in terms of like how this really feels and

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Speaker 2: who I really want to be as I'm holding this

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Speaker 2: certainly what I want my child to witness about the

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Speaker 2: dissolution of our marriage. But if that's not true, how

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Speaker 2: do we do the work of defining what is true

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Speaker 2: for ourselves? So, you know, sovereign circling back to what

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Speaker 2: you originally asked, is this sort of entity that is

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Speaker 2: defined for itself?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: If you think about like sovereign countries, they are like

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Speaker 2: doing the work of defining themselves for themselves, and it's

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Speaker 2: like a co creation of the people involved, but it's

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Speaker 2: really like that interra authority is defining it, you know.

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Speaker 1: You know, I would like to say that a lot

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Speaker 1: of the audience of this show is deeply on the

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Speaker 1: path of self awareness and seekers, you know, curious, as

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Speaker 1: I say in the title of the show, creative but

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Speaker 1: deeply connected to finding truths and answers. And I think

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Speaker 1: something that I hear a lot from people is there

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Speaker 1: is this belief that you have to quote unquote I'm

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Speaker 1: doing like all the air quotes right now, be healed

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Speaker 1: to be in relationship. If you could just kind of

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Speaker 1: I don't even know what the question is, but explore

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Speaker 1: and kind of share your thoughts on that concept or

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Speaker 1: how to approach relationship when you are on this journey

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Speaker 1: and you are doing your inner work and you're noticing

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Speaker 1: the triggers and all the pieces.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well it's twofold because first I would say, you know,

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Speaker 2: the idea that I need to be healed before being

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Speaker 2: in relationship, I would sort of say, well, good luck

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Speaker 2: with that, right, Yeah, there is nothing the work never ends, right,

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Speaker 2: and there's nothing that will bring our stuff to the

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Speaker 2: surface like romantic relationships, because it's the most vulnerable space

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Speaker 2: within us. To stand in front of another person and

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Speaker 2: say can you love me? Like can you see me

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Speaker 2: as worthy of traveling this path alongside you? It's it

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Speaker 2: brings all of our inner child wounding to the surface.

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Speaker 2: It's the most vulnerable space for all of us. So

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Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't care who you are, Like I

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Speaker 2: certainly like when I got back in there, I'm like,

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Speaker 2: who am I Like, I don't even recognize what is

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Speaker 2: coming up for me because it's it's deeply activating for

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Speaker 2: all of us. So I think we have to normalize that. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's going to be activating, it's going to be hard,

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Speaker 2: and I think if we're open to seeing it this way,

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Speaker 2: relationships can also be the most rich soil for our

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Speaker 2: becoming and our evolution. And it's really sort of seeing

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Speaker 2: whatever the relationship dynamic is as showing me to me. Right,

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Speaker 2: So if I make it less about this other person

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Speaker 2: and what they're doing, what they need to change, and

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Speaker 2: how they're not showing up in quote meeting my needs

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Speaker 2: and more like being in the inquiry around oof, that's

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Speaker 2: really challenging for me. When this person does that, I

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Speaker 2: wonder why, right, Like, what is the story I'm telling

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Speaker 2: myself about what it means? Where did I get ideas

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Speaker 2: about who someone else should be for me in relationship

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Speaker 2: that maybe are maybe they're true, but maybe they're not

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Speaker 2: necessarily true for me? And how can I just like

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Speaker 2: really be present with what is and in the space

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Speaker 2: of questioning versus just allowing our inner child really to

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Speaker 2: run the show in those moments when we're inevitably activated

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Speaker 2: in relationships.

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Speaker 1: You know, Oh, my goodness is something that you said

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Speaker 1: in the midst of this I would love to kind

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Speaker 1: of touch on because I think you know, in this,

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Speaker 1: in this moment in time, we are incredibly blessed to

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Speaker 1: have a lot of access to information and language, a

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Speaker 1: lot of access to concepts and tools of self awareness, diagnoses,

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Speaker 1: and so many things, all from our Instagram algorithm. Yes,

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Speaker 1: but we don't always, you know, depending on what our

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Speaker 1: individual backgrounds are, have the same definitions for some of

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Speaker 1: these words that we're reading or these understandings, and so

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Speaker 1: sometimes they're misused. And one of the things that I

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Speaker 1: see a lot is people saying, you know, I need

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Speaker 1: to get my needs met or I need my partner

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Speaker 1: needs to meet my needs, and yeah, I'm like, and

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Speaker 1: it's the floor is yours.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm smiling so big as you say that

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Speaker 2: that my face or something. She's my people, because I

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Speaker 2: feel like, very similar to what you're describing as watching

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Speaker 2: the dscape of social media and how often and not

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Speaker 2: even just social media, just in general, the relationship sphere

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Speaker 2: and the way that people talk about relationships, it's almost

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Speaker 2: become like a tick, talking about like getting our needs

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Speaker 2: mat And I found when couples come in to see me,

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Speaker 2: it's literally a battle for who's not getting their needs

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Speaker 2: needs met excuse me appropriately, to the point where I'm like, God,

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Speaker 2: this really feels just like the least loving thing ever.

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Speaker 2: And also what I realized was we're competing for energy here.

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Speaker 2: We're each feeling like I need someone else to fill

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Speaker 2: up my love cup. And I think people even actually

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Speaker 2: describe it that way, but like fill me up energetically

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Speaker 2: so that I can feel something that I don't feel

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Speaker 2: within myself, right, But if I need someone else to

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Speaker 2: be filling up my cup for me to be whole,

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Speaker 2: it's like a cup with a you know, a hole

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Speaker 2: in the bottom where it just keeps streaming out, it

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Speaker 2: will never be enough. And so our work is really

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Speaker 2: from my perspective, to cork that cup, ourselves really being

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Speaker 2: in that questioning. And you know, I struggle with the

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Speaker 2: word needs, and a lot of times it's not that

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Speaker 2: we don't have relational needs. But what I realized was

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Speaker 2: I was married for twelve years and there were so

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Speaker 2: many things that I would have called my relational needs

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Speaker 2: that I realized once I wasn't in a relationship. Those

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Speaker 2: weren't needs, they were desires. They were, you know, things

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Speaker 2: that I longed to feel in a partnership. I'm not

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Speaker 2: wrong for feeling them or longing for them, but they

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Speaker 2: were actually things that I was able to do for

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Speaker 2: myself when I had no choice, right. And I often say, like,

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Speaker 2: how do single people meet these needs if they're actually

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Speaker 2: quote needs? And I think language matters because there's an

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Speaker 2: energetic that is evoked within us when we use certain language.

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Speaker 2: And if these are my needs, then a lot of

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Speaker 2: times what I find with couples is there's a little

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Speaker 2: bit of a level of entitlement that comes up towards

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Speaker 2: our partner, like you're not meeting my needs. These are

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Speaker 2: things that I need from you versus always holding as

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Speaker 2: a practice. This partnership is a sacred gift that I'm

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Speaker 2: not promised could conceivably not be here tomorrow. And having

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Speaker 2: someone who sees me and meets me and has the

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Speaker 2: desire to love me in that way is to me

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Speaker 2: like the greatest gift ever. You know, not everybody has that,

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Speaker 2: And so I think there's a way that I just

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Speaker 2: like to like play with the language a little bit,

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Speaker 2: like if I expressed this to my partner as a desire,

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Speaker 2: how does that feel different than this is the need

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Speaker 2: that I have for me that's not being met because

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Speaker 2: there's a little bit of an energetic of black sometimes

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Speaker 2: in the.

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Speaker 1: Word need plunges into deficiency.

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Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, it's so.

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Speaker 1: God I think like, and what you're speaking to you

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Speaker 1: is just so big. It's so big because I think

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Speaker 1: this these kind of conversations about both needs and attachment

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Speaker 1: styles are kind of some of it's really good. The

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Speaker 1: stuff you find some of it is kind of like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you were gonna you might be sabotaging. You know what

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Speaker 1: you really want and desire in your life, and you

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Speaker 1: know what you're speaking to with the needs piece that

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Speaker 1: I find so interest seen is like when I kind

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Speaker 1: of re emerged in the dating world and I was

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Speaker 1: having conversations with people that are single or had been

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Speaker 1: single for a length of time. I was married for

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Speaker 1: about ten years, so I was off the market and

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Speaker 1: didn't know you know, I didn't know how to use

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Speaker 1: apps nothing. I was like, what are the kids doing?

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Speaker 1: But I started noticing that as I was talking to

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Speaker 1: women who were single and some men.

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Speaker 2: There was this.

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Speaker 1: What kind of became apparent to me was that a

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Speaker 1: lot of people were actually looking for parental love.

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Speaker 2: She gets it, that's true, Yes, yes, because you're.

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Speaker 1: The needs that I was hearing so many girlfriends say

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Speaker 1: they needed it. It wasn't really rational or reasonable to

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Speaker 1: expect that in a lover or in a partner, or

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Speaker 1: in a relationship of equality, but it did seem like

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Speaker 1: one of those core, deeply held desires that you would

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Speaker 1: have in childhood, of the way you'd want your authority

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Speaker 1: figure or your protector to show up.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: And it seemed almost as I was hearing that, you know,

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Speaker 1: and there's no judgment in that, because this is our work,

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Speaker 1: of this lifetime, right, it's to be aware of these

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Speaker 1: things and where they came from. But you know, the

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Speaker 1: thing that was kind of striking to me was just

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Speaker 1: by approaching love in that way, you keep yourself from it.

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Speaker 2: Ooof just felt that in my whole body as you

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Speaker 2: said that, that's right.

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Speaker 1: So for what are like realistic needs for someone to

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Speaker 1: have from a partner, and what could potentially be something

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Speaker 1: that one you can do for yourself or you might

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Speaker 1: want to investigate maybe a childhood belief.

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Speaker 2: Well, I want to go back if we can for

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Speaker 2: just a second, because what you said was so big

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Speaker 2: and so important, and to me is such a fundamental

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Speaker 2: reason why I wrote this book, Because there's so much

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Speaker 2: about the relationship structures right now that are really attachment

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Speaker 2: based in nature, and all of us as human beings,

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Speaker 2: have two fundamental needs. We all need attachment. We need

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Speaker 2: something to feel tethered to, something that we feel like

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Speaker 2: contained by and like grounded in security. But we also

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Speaker 2: need aliveness. We also need a sense of eros and

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Speaker 2: life force and becoming and evolution. Right, And so the

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Speaker 2: structure the attachment is the masculine in the context of

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Speaker 2: the way I talk about it. Yeah, and these energetics,

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Speaker 2: the aliveness, the eros, the life force is the feminine.

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Speaker 2: We live in a society that really does not hold

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Speaker 2: a lot of value around the feminine energetics in general. Right,

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Speaker 2: And so there's been so much emphasis on just create

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Speaker 2: the structure, just create the safety. People actually like talk

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Speaker 2: about it like just get in that bunker of marriage

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Speaker 2: and stay there and everything will be okay. And in

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Speaker 2: a lot of ways, it's like if we put the

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Speaker 2: emphasis on a secure attachment, and that's it. We're out

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Speaker 2: of balance as you're speaking to We're looking for someone

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Speaker 2: to essentially, yes, be a parent, but I would say

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Speaker 2: even the next step up from that is like be

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Speaker 2: that higher power for me, right, like that source of

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Speaker 2: Like here's where I get my existential angst sort of

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Speaker 2: calmed all of Like I noticed there was like, oh,

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00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:17,160
Speaker 2: this is like anxiety. This is almost like addictive, repetitive

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Speaker 2: patterns of like I need someone else to soothe me.

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Speaker 2: And when you're a child, as you know as a mama,

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Speaker 2: that's like that is what your parent is meant to do.

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Speaker 2: They are meant to give you that sense of containment.

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Speaker 2: I'm here, I got you, right. But if our children

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Speaker 2: never develop that, then they sort of go through the

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Speaker 2: world with an insecure attachment, feeling like they're not safe. Now,

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Speaker 2: I believe there is a larger secure attachment that we

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Speaker 2: are meant to cultivate within ourselves, right, But that is

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Speaker 2: that integration of source and the feminine aspects of ourselves

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Speaker 2: with us being rooted in the world that we're living in. Right.

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Speaker 2: So to answer the initial question that you asked, what

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Speaker 2: do I need from a partner? I would say very little.

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Speaker 2: To be honest, I would say that having people in

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Speaker 2: our lives are again this thing that we've sort of

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Speaker 2: made like our romantic partner everything for us. They're like,

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Speaker 2: you know, my confidant, my therapist, my travel buddy. But

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Speaker 2: here's the challenging aspect of that. When I am the

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Speaker 2: parental figure for my parent or excuse me, parental figure

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Speaker 2: for my partner, all of a sudden, appropriately appropriately, So

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Speaker 2: there's not a lot of eros, there's not a lot

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Speaker 2: of life force. We don't want to sleep together right, right,

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Speaker 2: And so this is why all of the couples that

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Speaker 2: I see, because we put so much emphasis on attachment,

359
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,240
Speaker 2: everybody's struggling with their physical intimacy because there's like this

360
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Speaker 2: immeshed dynamic in our relationships where it's like I don't

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Speaker 2: know where you begin and I end. And we need

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Speaker 2: that sense of the other. We need that sense of longing,

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Speaker 2: that desire. It's like, you know, fire can't be created

364
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Speaker 2: without a little bit of air. We need some space

365
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,080
Speaker 2: between you and me. But we've just really created these

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Speaker 2: mesh dynamics that it's like all attachments, stay attached, get

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Speaker 2: back in these bunkers and be attached. But if I

368
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,320
Speaker 2: don't sort of believe that you're, like meant to be

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Speaker 2: this other, then I can't desire you.

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Speaker 1: You know, come on, this is so good, This is

371
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Speaker 1: so so good. Deeply, well, I'm very clear about what

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Speaker 1: I want and need in my life, and I'm also

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Speaker 1: clear about who I want to be for someone and

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Speaker 1: who I don't want to be for someone when it

375
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Speaker 1: comes to a romantic relationship and love. And I think

376
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Speaker 1: for me, and I hope this is the correct word

377
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,159
Speaker 1: in the way that I mean to use it. But like,

378
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Speaker 1: my autonomy is very important to me, and I want

379
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Speaker 1: to interchange that with my sovereignty, like my ability to

380
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Speaker 1: be myself. I want to think of life through the

381
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:12,520
Speaker 1: lens of my human experience. While I'm also giving, right Like,

382
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:18,119
Speaker 1: I've absolutely cultivated an expansive ability to give and receive

383
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Speaker 1: love and I learned that profoundly from my child and

384
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Speaker 1: that caring and that nurturing, and I love that I'm

385
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Speaker 1: a giver. I'm a lover, But I also need my

386
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Speaker 1: space and I don't really require a lot, you know,

387
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Speaker 1: I don't need my problems to be solved. I don't need,

388
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Speaker 1: you know, to fall apart on someone at least not

389
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:43,000
Speaker 1: all the time, you know, hopefully, But you know, I

390
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,640
Speaker 1: think in the way that I see love in life,

391
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Speaker 1: I'm also looking for an autonomous soul and spirit and

392
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Speaker 1: someone that is very clear about who they are, with

393
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 1: their interests, with their way to meet their own needs.

394
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Speaker 1: And we're not looking to like caretake for each other.

395
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Speaker 1: The seasons that that's necessary, like tangibly, like realistically necessary, absolutely,

396
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:08,880
Speaker 1: but not as a full time job. We can think

397
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Speaker 1: about ourselves and our individual lives and relationships. I'm curious

398
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 1: how that sounds to you. Tell me if I'm crazy

399
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Speaker 1: or if that feels aligned.

400
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Speaker 2: Not only do you not sound crazy, but there's a

401
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 2: very specific reason why women of a certain age start

402
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 2: to feel such a strong sense of what you're speaking to.

403
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:32,119
Speaker 2: So around thirty eight thirty nine, all of a sudden,

404
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,920
Speaker 2: a woman starts tot and you probably know this, actually,

405
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 2: like there's an astrological shift that happens for us. But

406
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,639
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, we start to come into like

407
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 2: this next phase of self, right, yeah, and we start

408
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,639
Speaker 2: to like really question and it's it's very much like

409
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:51,159
Speaker 2: what Jung called the individuation process, but like there's a

410
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 2: specific way that it unfolds within the feminine, the core

411
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 2: feminine woman, right, and so all of a sudden, it's

412
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Speaker 2: like all of these things that I've been fed about,

413
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,680
Speaker 2: like who I need to be to be enough and

414
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 2: what is true about the world, we just start questioning

415
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 2: and we start looking around. And I heard something yesterday,

416
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 2: you know, you hear something You're like that just kind

417
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,639
Speaker 2: of blew my mind goes, like the accuracy, but it

418
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 2: was basically saying like, as a woman comes into her forties,

419
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 2: and you've always heard like older women speak about like,

420
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:23,919
Speaker 2: it's just all of a sudden, like your sense of

421
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,879
Speaker 2: self gets solidified a little bit more right, And so

422
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 2: I certainly started to feel that, but I just thought like, oh,

423
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 2: that's just me, Like, you know, that's just what's happening

424
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Speaker 2: for me. But it's actually like developmentally what happens for women. Now.

425
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Speaker 2: What I heard the other day that blew my mind

426
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,919
Speaker 2: was that like any oppressive structure has to sort of

427
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:46,640
Speaker 2: be in this preemptive space of knowing how things unfold

428
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 2: to keep the systems in place, Meaning a patriarchal structure

429
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 2: knows this about what happens for women. We start to

430
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 2: come into ourselves around our forties, we start to like

431
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,640
Speaker 2: come into this immense space of wisdom and self and

432
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 2: just confidence, and all of a sudden, we're like, we're

433
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 2: not interested in being controlled or diminished or needing someone

434
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 2: to complete me anymore. I actually am really clear, Like

435
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,199
Speaker 2: I feel good in my skin. I can do that

436
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:18,119
Speaker 2: for myself. Right, It's good. Yeah, But if you you know,

437
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 2: think back on like what it felt like when you

438
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 2: were younger, A lot of times we didn't have that

439
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 2: because developmentally we weren't in that space of individuation yet, right,

440
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 2: And so these patriarchal structures know that, and it's a

441
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,120
Speaker 2: big reason why so much of the programming is around

442
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 2: youth and staying young and that you don't want to

443
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,880
Speaker 2: age and when you age, that like that's a negative thing,

444
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 2: and you know, like puts emphasis but for women, right,

445
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 2: Like we don't hear a lot of emphasis on what's

446
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 2: negative around men aging. And women are sort of like

447
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,360
Speaker 2: in this space of like coming into themselves in their forties.

448
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:54,200
Speaker 2: And not only are we meant to feel bad about

449
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 2: the fact that we're aging and that our bodies and

450
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,439
Speaker 2: our faces and whatever start to look different, but also

451
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 2: that we're bitter, and that's why we're sort of like

452
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,880
Speaker 2: speaking to all of these things, right, So we sort

453
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 2: of program young women to see older women not as

454
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 2: like the wise sage elders or you know, and I

455
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 2: would even say like the mystics and the enchantress phase

456
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 2: of life where we're really sort of like in our

457
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,959
Speaker 2: inner witch coming to the surface, right, but see them

458
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 2: as bitter and just like mad that they don't have

459
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 2: a man or whatever the thing is that I certainly

460
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 2: probably would have thought that was true when I heard

461
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,120
Speaker 2: people talking about like patriarchy or things when I was younger.

462
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 2: I just it didn't occur to me like that that

463
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 2: was that eventually I was going to get a righter

464
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 2: maybe be curious about those things. But I'm saying all

465
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 2: of this to say there's a way that preemptively we

466
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 2: sort of have to be in this offensive space of

467
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,159
Speaker 2: negating whatever the thing is that challenges the system. And

468
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,199
Speaker 2: you see it, you know, in all of these like

469
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 2: white supremacy. We'll do this with calling you know, black

470
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:01,120
Speaker 2: people angry and saying like anytime this question systems, it's

471
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 2: because you know they're angry. And so like there's all

472
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,120
Speaker 2: of these like narratives that float within the cultural zeitgeist

473
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 2: that keeps keep these systems in place, but we're just

474
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 2: so like breathing them. They're the air that we breathe

475
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,880
Speaker 2: that we never really question them and say, like are

476
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 2: those women in our forties bitter or are they just

477
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 2: like not concerned with fitting into a box anymore? Right?

478
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 2: And so to me, to this point you were making

479
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 2: I think the most potent form of resistance that we

480
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 2: can sort of enact as women is sort of saying one,

481
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 2: not only am I going to like embrace what is

482
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 2: so unbelievably beautiful about my aging process? And like I

483
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 2: don't like a fine one. I'm like the best time

484
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,439
Speaker 2: everbody what you're talking about, Like not not here for

485
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 2: that like conversation. I'm like really in the space of

486
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 2: loving aging, but also just that like I am loving

487
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,120
Speaker 2: my life and I think there's so much about whatever

488
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 2: the narrative is around our suffering in life. And this

489
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 2: is sort of like where the mindfulness work comes in

490
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 2: for me. It's always debatable, right, like whatever should be happening,

491
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 2: or what my marriage should have been, or who my

492
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 2: partner should be that they're not if we can be

493
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 2: in the space of questioning and in the inquiry. It

494
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 2: can really sort of diffuse some of the pain that

495
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,479
Speaker 2: we're feeling around whatever the thing is, because it's always

496
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 2: a narrative that's debatable. Do you know what I mean? Yes,

497
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,360
Speaker 2: you know, I'm just like wow an hour, but very

498
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 2: passionate obviously about what you're speaking. Yeah, because I think

499
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,639
Speaker 2: it's important and to me, we're living through a moment

500
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,120
Speaker 2: in history that was sort of defined as the Aquarian

501
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 2: Age was going to be the rise of the feminine consciousness,

502
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 2: and that we were going to come into this awareness

503
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,479
Speaker 2: that you're talking about earlier in life, and that we

504
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 2: weren't going to sort of be in this space of

505
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 2: feeling like we needed to be diminished and that anything

506
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 2: wrong was happening. It's like, no, this is the natural

507
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 2: order of things and we're waking up, you know.

508
00:28:56,040 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: Yes, oh God. And you know, I think for some

509
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: people or some ways that you know, we've looked at society,

510
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: it's been that to take that on means that you

511
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: want to be masculine, or that you want to like

512
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 1: win against men or overpower men in the dynamic, and

513
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 1: it's like no, I just I want to be left

514
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 1: to be myself. I want to be kind of respected

515
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: to be myself and interact and participate with love. I

516
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: want to be in participation actively creatively with love and

517
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: with loving, but I don't also want to be oppressed

518
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: by it. Yeah, And I don't want to be boxed

519
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 1: in by it.

520
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I don't know if you feel this, but

521
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 2: I honestly feel like I have more love for the

522
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 2: masculine collectives in my space of autonomy than I've ever

523
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 2: had in my life. And I think the reason is

524
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 2: because as I am a more sovereign being, I am

525
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 2: using more discernment with who I am joying in partnership

526
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 2: with and when I join in partnership because it's justified.

527
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 2: It's because my man is like so unbelievably inspiring to me,

528
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,959
Speaker 2: and I am like thrilled to soften into him and

529
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 2: there's no resentment around doing that because I'm like hungry

530
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 2: to do it and it feels so good. I think

531
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 2: that that's the thing that we're sort of like not

532
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 2: taught to understand about what this process of romantic love

533
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,959
Speaker 2: can be so good, because we're just so taught like

534
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 2: if you're alone, there's something wrong, so you better hurry

535
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 2: up and get a partner. But if we're really intentional

536
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 2: about our partnerships and creating community around us, so that yeah,

537
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 2: I have a ton of people in my life, but

538
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 2: when I join in partnership with another person, it's because

539
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 2: it's so aligned, it's so like on a soul level,

540
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 2: what I know for sure, for sure I'm meant to

541
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 2: have for myself that I'm like the softest, she's.

542
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 1: So soft, like what you were saying, Oh my god,

543
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 1: it's so it's so it's so important, it's so important

544
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 1: for all of us, for both sides, because I mean,

545
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,239
Speaker 1: I just have a tremendous amount of respect for like

546
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 1: men with integrity, like a tremendous amount of respect and compassion,

547
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 1: love and desire for men in that space. And you

548
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: know it's I think for so long when it came

549
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 1: to society and TV and all the things showing us

550
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 1: what the dynamic look like between women and men, it

551
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 1: was kind of like women needing to please men and

552
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: being very anxious about it. And how do I get

553
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: him to notice, like be with all these things and

554
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: the dynamic you're speaking to, which is the true, healthy, healed, whole,

555
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 1: sovereign dynamic. It's really about like we are both these

556
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: sovereign beings. We are both in this container of love

557
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 1: in reverence for love, and because of that, I'm allowed

558
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: to just be like a lover girl. I don't have

559
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: to be pleasing you. I just get to be so

560
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: soft and in lovership and just you know, like at

561
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: the highest degree of the way, I'm able to care

562
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 1: and give and it feels like ease, and it feels

563
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 1: like joy, and it feels like passion and creativity.

564
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 2: Do you know how I know the feminine is rising

565
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 2: and I just am like bursting as you say that.

566
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 2: I wrote a post where I said something about like

567
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 2: the era of the lover girl is returning, and Natty,

568
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,719
Speaker 2: when I tell you, that was the most engaged post

569
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 2: of all time, like because we know and we're so

570
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 2: hungry to put down all of these things that are

571
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 2: not in alignment with the truth of who we are

572
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 2: and we are love, like this is our essence and

573
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 2: we know that, and it's like we're just like ready

574
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 2: to be that thing. And something else you were saying

575
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 2: that I think is really important is just the way

576
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 2: that it is important to look at and hold the

577
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 2: trajectory of what this has been for men and how

578
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 2: much I am just so obsessed with having the conversation

579
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 2: around men and how much these patriarchal structures have been

580
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 2: really damaging like that. And I think because I have

581
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 2: a little boy, and I never really thought about it

582
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 2: until I thought about like the world that I want

583
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 2: him to inherit and how much I want him to

584
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 2: feel that safety in being his fullest, most embodied self.

585
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 2: But there's all these ways that this like protect, provide,

586
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 2: pro create template, and that's all you're meant to do

587
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 2: for men is just really not allowing them to be

588
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 2: a full self either. And I think that that's a

589
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 2: little bit where we start to get in trouble in

590
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 2: relationships as we've sort of been playing these roles that

591
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 2: we've been conditioned to play. And then I love to say,

592
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 2: like couples get together and it's like we're laying in

593
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 2: bed next to someone that we barely know, because it's

594
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 2: like we've just been playing the roles with one another

595
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 2: but not really feeling safe enough to really be the

596
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 2: fullest expression of ourselves. And so I think, you know,

597
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 2: kind of circling back to what you were saying before,

598
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 2: it's not that we need to be healed to be

599
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 2: in dynamics with another person. But I do think that

600
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 2: we need to believe that our energy and the way

601
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,359
Speaker 2: we're showing up for this relationship dynamic is one hundred

602
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 2: percent Maya responsibility, and so it's not someone else's responsibility

603
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 2: to be all of these things for me so that

604
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:29,839
Speaker 2: I can believe that I'm whole.

605
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:34,439
Speaker 1: That's my job, right, you better, let's run that back.

606
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: Jack queis my producer. Let's run it back, that entire thing.

607
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 2: It's not that we need to be healed to be

608
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 2: in dynamics with another person, But I do think that

609
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 2: we need to believe that our energy and the way

610
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 2: we're showing up for this relationship dynamic is one hundred

611
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,720
Speaker 2: percent Maya responsibility, and so it's not someone else's responsibility

612
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 2: to be all of these things for me so that

613
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 2: I can believe that I'm whole. That's my job.

614
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: Deeply, well, I love the way that we are slowly

615
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 1: walking through and unpacking the depth of your book and

616
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 1: the concept, especially of the title, because that is sovereign love.

617
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 1: It is not against, It is not two people behind.

618
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,879
Speaker 1: You know, these armored walls that are trying to fight

619
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 1: to be the one that gets to be themselves or

620
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 1: gets to be the one whose needs get met. You know,

621
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 1: it's the space of like one is, like love is

622
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 1: a privilege, Like it is a privilege to be in

623
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 1: connection for both sides, and at any time, it's a

624
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 1: privilege that can be revoked, you know. So when it's

625
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: there and it's safe and there's space, it's meant to be,

626
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 1: you know, the safe opening space for self where you

627
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 1: can be reflected and reflect and learn and grow. And

628
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 1: I'm such a believer that God God's intention for us

629
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 1: is to learn through relationship and relationship with all things,

630
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 1: not just love and partnership, but relationship with everything around you.

631
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 1: I have a relationship with my house. I have a relationship,

632
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: you know, with my favorite book of poetry. I have

633
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,359
Speaker 1: a relationship with places I travel and with people and

634
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: my child, and you know, and I learn about me

635
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 1: through every way that I relate to relationship in my life.

636
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 2: The depth of your awareness, it's just it's kind of

637
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 2: blowing my mind. I was thinking as you were speaking

638
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 2: to me, I was like, God, she so gets it.

639
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 2: And to me, this is a little bit what is

640
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 2: beautiful about divorce Because I think in the same way

641
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 2: that any sort of death just gives us a different

642
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 2: level of reverence for life. I think the death of

643
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 2: a connection gives you this opportunity to certainly go back

644
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 2: and you know, look at the black box and really

645
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 2: sort of time to understand what happened here. But also

646
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 2: there's like a rebirth of the way that I hold this,

647
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 2: And I find those who have experienced love and experienced

648
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 2: loss just to have like a different level of consciousness

649
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 2: with what they're bringing. And that's often why if you

650
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,879
Speaker 2: look at people's relationships when they're in like their later

651
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 2: in life marriage partnership, they're so content and grateful and

652
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 2: present with one another. But also what I've seen is

653
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,760
Speaker 2: like their expectations of the other person are so low

654
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 2: because they're just like settled in their skin in a

655
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 2: different way, you know.

656
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 1: So we've been kind of speaking of it in the

657
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 1: context of, you know, kind of like mid to late

658
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 1: thirties and beyond for anyone listening who's kind of on

659
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 1: the younger end of the spectrum and might be at,

660
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 1: you know, more of the beginning stages of coming into

661
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 1: that those depth relationships. What is a way that they

662
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 1: can start working with this material so they get it

663
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 1: through in the first pass.

664
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 2: I mean, I love this question, and in some ways

665
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 2: I feel like we're in such a moment of like

666
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 2: the children shall lead them. Like the younger generation is just,

667
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 2: in my experience, so conscious and questioning and challenging these

668
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 2: paradigms in a way that we just didn't feel safe

669
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 2: to or it just they weren't the conversations we were having, right,

670
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 2: But I think all of these like gender binary conversations

671
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 2: and like what relationships can look like outside of what

672
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 2: we saw and not working well for our parents' generation,

673
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 2: they're already having them, and they're sort of like, you know,

674
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,320
Speaker 2: there's like these Pew research studies where they were asking

675
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 2: all of these young people about like getting married, and

676
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 2: they were sort of like why, And I don't think

677
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 2: that's necessarily a bad thing now, I think to me,

678
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 2: and this is just like a hypothesis I have. I

679
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 2: believe that we are going to shift into a time

680
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,399
Speaker 2: where partnership is not going to be the baseline. It's

681
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 2: going to be like we are in community with one

682
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:02,879
Speaker 2: another again. It's going to be more of a collectivist

683
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 2: way of being. And then when our soul paths are

684
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 2: so unbelievably aligned, the mission for what we came into

685
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 2: these bodies to do is just like in sync, then

686
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 2: we're going to come together in partnership because it's so

687
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 2: potent and fiery there. And I think that like our

688
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 2: kids generation, that's going to be what their relationship structures

689
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:24,800
Speaker 2: look like. But I think it's going to be more

690
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 2: in the space of like, like you were saying, like

691
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 2: I am in relationship to so many things, to so

692
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 2: many people, with a little bit more of a conscious

693
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,359
Speaker 2: reverence for like what all of these relationship dynamics are

694
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,880
Speaker 2: teaching me about me, but that I'm not looking for

695
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 2: someone to complete me anymore, Like we're not doing that anymore.

696
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I want to just to sit in the

697
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 1: fibers of the book for a second. I kind of

698
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 1: I want to read for everybody some of the synopsis

699
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 1: from the book, and then I have a few technical questions.

700
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,800
Speaker 1: So the avout of Sovereign Love is as a marriage

701
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 1: and family therapist, Sovereign Love is Denay Logan's perspective on

702
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 1: how we begin to heal from an unspoken war of

703
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 1: the sexes that's been playing out in our relationships. She

704
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 1: shares the patterns she sees playing out and the couples

705
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 1: that she works with, and how growing up in a

706
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 1: patriarchal society has affected us all. Sovereign love teaches you

707
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 1: about the work of integrating your own masculine and feminine

708
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 1: energetics so that you can create healthy polarity in your relationships,

709
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 1: put down the practice of codependency, and experience a greater

710
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 1: sense of wholeness within So that I mean ough, and

711
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 1: I know so many are are already resonating with the language,

712
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:46,359
Speaker 1: but if you would kind of those energetics that live

713
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:50,760
Speaker 1: within each of us, that polarity that you know, God,

714
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 1: the yend, the young, the light, the dark, the masculine,

715
00:40:56,200 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 1: the feminine, the grief, the joy, Like we are always

716
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:02,839
Speaker 1: integrating opposites.

717
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 2: That's why we're here.

718
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 1: And how I and you know and I know obviously

719
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 1: this isn't books. We'll get the book, get book the book.

720
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:18,360
Speaker 1: But can you describe for those listening what is that

721
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 1: polarity inside men and women? What do we experience as

722
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 1: our inner masculine and feminine and how does that play

723
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 1: into how we are able to show up or not

724
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 1: in relationship.

725
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 2: Well, so, as we were talking about before, I believe

726
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 2: there's so much about our society as it has been,

727
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 2: that's been like a really wounded masculine paradigm, and so

728
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 2: that's like really like competitive productivity at all costs, you know,

729
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 2: just sort of like pull yourself up by your bootstraps

730
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 2: and like really like disengaged from our inner world in

731
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 2: so many ways. Like that's like the societal paradigm that's

732
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 2: been normalized. And a lot of times, like the things

733
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 2: that we revere, like especially in Western culture, like we

734
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:03,840
Speaker 2: really sort of like you know, this thing of like

735
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 2: working ourselves until we're sick, not having any like vacation days.

736
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 2: That's really like those are like the things that we

737
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 2: value societally. Now, when it comes to feminine energy, we

738
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:18,319
Speaker 2: really think of feminine energy with a lot of contempt

739
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 2: and a lot of what we believe is feminine energy

740
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,439
Speaker 2: is really a distortion of feminine energy. So that's sort

741
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 2: of like the insecure, clingy, you know, codependent like anxious

742
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 2: like need someone else to complete me energy. We think

743
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:35,840
Speaker 2: of that as feminine energy. And you know, as we

744
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,359
Speaker 2: were saying before, that's in all of us, like we

745
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:40,760
Speaker 2: will all sort of do this dance between our wounded

746
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 2: masculine and feminine energetics. But what I started to understand

747
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 2: is like we're a society that doesn't really have any

748
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 2: sort of like conceptualization of what these dynamics are and

749
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 2: look like from a healthy perspective. And you know, certainly

750
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 2: with masculine energy, we don't even know or have models

751
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 2: of what healthy masculinity looks like really, And so when

752
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 2: we think about, like what is healthy masculinity, that is

753
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,240
Speaker 2: a sense of self, that is confidence, that is a mission,

754
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 2: that is like I am rooted in what I know,

755
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:15,359
Speaker 2: I'm here to do, and I got me no matter what, right,

756
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 2: And that's in all of us. That's the like moving

757
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:22,319
Speaker 2: forward from the space of inspired action versus how it

758
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 2: looks from the outside, right, like from a space rooted

759
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 2: from within. But then this beautiful, healthy, feminine energetic is

760
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 2: the energetic within all of us that like, if I

761
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 2: think of feminine energy, the first word that comes to

762
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 2: mind is always trust, because the feminine energy is like

763
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 2: the source energy within all of us. It is the

764
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 2: aspect of us that is like connected to the divine,

765
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 2: and so that is like the receptive energy, that is

766
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,240
Speaker 2: the part of us that believes that we can trust

767
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 2: our intuition, trust our internal guidance, system and know that

768
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 2: we will be held. It's the part of us that

769
00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:00,080
Speaker 2: trust in life allows ourselves to play and be free

770
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 2: and embodied all of these beautiful aspects of our feminine

771
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 2: But all of us need to like really have both

772
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 2: of those energetics alive and dancing and integrated within us.

773
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:14,479
Speaker 2: But we can't really have that until we not only

774
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:16,879
Speaker 2: have an understanding of what those energetics are and how

775
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 2: they show up, but what it looks like tangibly to

776
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 2: take responsibility for our own energy. And that's really what

777
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 2: I try to walk people through in the book, like

778
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 2: that we are actually able not only to take responsibility

779
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 2: for our own energy in any given moment, but what's

780
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 2: amazing about Couple's work is when we take responsibility for

781
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 2: our own energy. And this isn't just in romantic relationships,

782
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 2: it's in relationships in general. Inevitably we will create polarity.

783
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 2: We will create healthy polarity. So just like a quick

784
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 2: example of what that can look like. So let's say

785
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 2: that I'm like you're like in a We're going to

786
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 2: pretend like we're like battling in wounded polarity for a moment, right,

787
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 2: So if you were like in wounded feminine energetic, and

788
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 2: you're just like constantly like wanting more from me, telling

789
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 2: me that, like you know, you just like want to

790
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:07,920
Speaker 2: hang out more, and I'm just like not meeting your needs.

791
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 2: And like there's all of these ways that you're feeling

792
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:11,959
Speaker 2: like you want more from me, but I'm not giving

793
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 2: it to you, and it's making you feel insecure and

794
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 2: unhappy in this relationship. And so I'm in wounded masculine

795
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 2: energy and I'm just like really irritated and like, oh,

796
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 2: you're always pulling on me and you're so needy and

797
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:24,880
Speaker 2: I'm like really trying to build something at work and

798
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 2: why don't you understand it. I'm just like really in

799
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 2: this like guarded wounded masculine paradigm with you. My work

800
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,839
Speaker 2: is to shift into my healthy feminine. So if I'm

801
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 2: in wounded masculine, I go into my healthy feminine, and

802
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:39,359
Speaker 2: that's me in the space of vulnerability. So I get

803
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 2: still and I like really say, Okay, like what is

804
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 2: it that Debbie's doing that? Like I'm telling myself a

805
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 2: story about I take up space. The feminine is like

806
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 2: the spaciousness, So I take up space with the truth

807
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 2: of how this feels. For me, I say the vulnerable

808
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,280
Speaker 2: thing I say. You know, the story I'm telling myself

809
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 2: is that like, no matter what I do, it's never

810
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 2: enough for you. And that reminds me maybe of the

811
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 2: way that like my mom always criticized me. Like, we

812
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 2: get into like the vulnerable conversation and I take up

813
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 2: space with that, And what will inevitably happen is is

814
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 2: I take up space in my healthy feminine you will

815
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 2: start to create healthy masculine containment for me. And so

816
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:17,279
Speaker 2: you will see me in this vulnerable space and you'll

817
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 2: be like, oh, tonay, I wasn't trying to make you

818
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 2: feel that way. All of a sudden you got me.

819
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 2: You're containing me. You're like, I see you, I see

820
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 2: how I'm making you feel. That was not my intention.

821
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 2: And we start to be in that dance. Now here's

822
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 2: the important caveat because a lot of times people will say, well,

823
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 2: how do I get my husband to get into that

824
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 2: healthy That's not what we're doing here. When I say

825
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 2: take one hundred percent responsibility for your energy, I mean

826
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 2: one hundred percent responsibility for your energy, not your husband's energy.

827
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 2: And we will inevitably create healthy polarity when we take

828
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:53,319
Speaker 2: responsibility for our energy. But energy is one of those

829
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 2: things we can't fake, Like we can't manipulate energy. So

830
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 2: if I am fully in the space of shifting into

831
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 2: my healthy feminine, inevitably you will sort of start to

832
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 2: like shift into that space of containment. But if you

833
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,840
Speaker 2: can't and you won't, that's really important information for me

834
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 2: to have. Like if someone is just like determined to

835
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:16,799
Speaker 2: not be in like healthy polarity with me, then that's

836
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:19,480
Speaker 2: information about like how much we're going to be able

837
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:21,919
Speaker 2: to find harmony in this relationship. And I need to know.

838
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,720
Speaker 1: That, need to know that and need to not respond

839
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 1: to it like a challenge, right like.

840
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 2: I will make you.

841
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm gonna win this, yeah.

842
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, because that comes from a wounded space within me

843
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 2: that believes, like if this person can just love me

844
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:38,360
Speaker 2: the way I desire to be loved, and then that

845
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:39,320
Speaker 2: will mean I'm worthy.

846
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 1: Oh lordie, what are some things that more people in

847
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 1: general need to evaluate when they think about love?

848
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:56,439
Speaker 2: I love that question. I think in general we have

849
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 2: just a distorted idea of what love is, you know.

850
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 2: I think so often, like even we were talking about before,

851
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:05,280
Speaker 2: if you look on social media and the way people

852
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:08,320
Speaker 2: talk about love, it's like fun. A person who does

853
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 2: this for you for you're the one will like inevitably

854
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 2: know how to do X, Y and Z for you.

855
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 2: So love is really about what I get from someone else.

856
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 2: Is everything that we're taught to believe. I don't think

857
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 2: that's true. I believe love is about what I am

858
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 2: giving to you. And you know, I think since my

859
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 2: marriage ended my definition of love when I really like

860
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 2: got in there and like got in the like unpacking

861
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 2: of love and relationships really shifted. And today what I

862
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 2: think of when I think of love is just the

863
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 2: idea that your soul is safe with me. And what

864
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:43,839
Speaker 2: that means to me is that, like whatever your soul

865
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 2: came here to carry out in terms of its soul mission,

866
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 2: for you to be the fullest embodiment of who you

867
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 2: have the potential to be in this lifetime. I want

868
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 2: that for you because I love you, and I don't

869
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 2: want to interfere with that, even if that means that

870
00:48:57,680 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 2: you were meant to journey on and grace without me.

871
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:03,400
Speaker 2: I love you, so, you know. I start out the

872
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 2: book with this quote by Maya Angelo where she talks

873
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:09,760
Speaker 2: about like love liberates, it doesn't bind. It doesn't hold

874
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 2: someone here demanding that you stay and be who I

875
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 2: need you to be. Love loves you, and I love

876
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 2: the idea that, like my love for you is for

877
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:20,200
Speaker 2: me that actually has nothing to do with anything you're

878
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 2: giving or doing or being. I love you. That's that's

879
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 2: what it means to love. And I think, yes, if

880
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,400
Speaker 2: both people feel that, then there's reciprocity and it's a

881
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 2: beautiful relationship dynamic. But I think love is more about

882
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 2: my experience of you than your experience of me.

883
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:37,840
Speaker 1: That is so gorgeous.

884
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 2: Thank you.

885
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 1: That is so so so so so gorgeous. That is love.

886
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 1: That is love. Oh I really, I just really urge

887
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 1: everyone listening that's resonating to really start thinking about exploring,

888
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:00,760
Speaker 1: going on to some kind of rabbit hole deep dives

889
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:03,239
Speaker 1: of what does love actually mean to you? And what

890
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:07,359
Speaker 1: has been perhaps performance or what has been societal programming

891
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:11,240
Speaker 1: or what has been you know, a barrier against.

892
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 2: What does it actually mean, what does it look like?

893
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 1: What can it be? Because I think, and to the

894
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:23,880
Speaker 1: way that you just so beautifully express that love is love,

895
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 1: and we keep trying to give love different definitions depending

896
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:32,760
Speaker 1: on where we apply it. So it's like love means

897
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:37,360
Speaker 1: this when I'm in love with a partner in romance.

898
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:40,439
Speaker 1: But then love between me and my child is like this,

899
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:43,319
Speaker 1: or love between me and a friend or my self,

900
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:47,719
Speaker 1: love is like this. Love is one thing. Love is

901
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,719
Speaker 1: one thing. Love is love, and it has to be

902
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 1: universally applied, and it's true nature and it's true and

903
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 1: it's true context. So it's like, if there are different

904
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:04,240
Speaker 1: expertstions of what love is looks like how it feels

905
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:08,880
Speaker 1: depending on who you're attributing that word to or with,

906
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 1: that's something to look at. It should not be that

907
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:16,879
Speaker 1: faceted and compartmentalized in different ways and categorized.

908
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 2: It's it's love. It just is. And I love what

909
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:24,720
Speaker 2: you're saying so much because I think the more work

910
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:29,360
Speaker 2: that we do to bring the focus back inward and understand.

911
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 2: You know, there's this roomy quote that like our task

912
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 2: is not to seek for love, but merely to seek

913
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:37,800
Speaker 2: and find all the barriers we've built within ourselves against it, right,

914
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:39,720
Speaker 2: And I think that.

915
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:40,719
Speaker 1: I love that quote.

916
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:44,799
Speaker 2: Right, It is so good. And I think when we

917
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 2: like boil it down and like just start, like you know,

918
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 2: to me, the healing is just like a returning to

919
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 2: the essence of who we really are, and we are

920
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 2: love period. You know, one of my favorite writers, Jaia

921
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:59,319
Speaker 2: John has this I don't know but shet, but he

922
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:01,759
Speaker 2: has this quote. It's sort of like ocean need not

923
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:06,120
Speaker 2: seek water. You don't need to seek love outside of yourself.

924
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:08,880
Speaker 2: You are love. Our work is just to remember that

925
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 2: and just start to pour love into every space we

926
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:15,759
Speaker 2: enter a little bit more. But that really requires us

927
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:18,839
Speaker 2: going inward and doing the work to understand where did

928
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:21,440
Speaker 2: I come up with all these barriers that are keeping

929
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 2: me from loving.

930
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 1: Two of my teachers from some years ago used to

931
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:30,840
Speaker 1: start every one of our workshops with that roomy quote,

932
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:32,800
Speaker 1: and then they'd say at the end of it, they'd

933
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 1: add their piece in that they add it, which was

934
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:38,319
Speaker 1: to find all the barriers against it, and then they

935
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 1: would add and to dissolve them. And they would say

936
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 1: that every time like so like, so deliberate, so pronunciated.

937
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:51,680
Speaker 1: You know, it was just and to dissolve them. And

938
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:56,280
Speaker 1: I always love that because it gives you the beautiful

939
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 1: responsibility of that which means you can't do it.

940
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 2: That's ah, that's gorgeous.

941
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 1: So good. So as we as we get ready, although

942
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:09,760
Speaker 1: I would love to continue the show for hours and days.

943
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 2: So excited to find you, sister, you are I know.

944
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:20,640
Speaker 1: We are hanging. I would love if you could share

945
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 1: at the end of every episode. I like to invite

946
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:24,920
Speaker 1: our guests to share a piece of soul work with

947
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:28,919
Speaker 1: everyone listening, a way to integrate this conversation, a way

948
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 1: to experience it in between time until the next episode.

949
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:35,760
Speaker 1: So whether it is a practice from the book, something

950
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:40,040
Speaker 1: from your heart, or an inquiry, anything that you would

951
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:43,879
Speaker 1: like to let the audience savor as this episode ends.

952
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 1: Ye know.

953
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 2: I was thinking about earlier that there's this thing that

954
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:52,480
Speaker 2: Eckert Tole speaks to where he talks about whenever you're

955
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:57,800
Speaker 2: experiencing something difficult, make the decision to be in radical

956
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 2: acceptance of this as if you chose it, because on

957
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:04,520
Speaker 2: some level you did. And I got to tell you, Debbie,

958
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 2: like making that the practice of my life has changed everything,

959
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:11,640
Speaker 2: whatever it's going through, or whatever I'm going through, whatever

960
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:14,440
Speaker 2: the situation is. If I get into the space of

961
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 2: getting still and ask myself, like, why is my higher

962
00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 2: self making this the assignment you know, giving me? This

963
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 2: is the instruction of something that I meant to go through,

964
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:30,560
Speaker 2: Then all of a sudden, like the resistance just starts

965
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 2: to dissolve, to use that word, And I think that

966
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:36,680
Speaker 2: that's just like a practice that we can bring in

967
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:39,759
Speaker 2: like life's going to be life in right, like things

968
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 2: are going to happen, and when the things that we

969
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:47,320
Speaker 2: would rather not be the case are the inevitable reality.

970
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:49,840
Speaker 2: How can I be in the space of like radical

971
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:53,320
Speaker 2: acceptance as if I chose this because on some level

972
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:57,680
Speaker 2: I did big work.

973
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:05,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, big work, juicy juicy, juicy work. Spend time thinking

974
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:10,719
Speaker 1: about that invitation everyone and journal to that in a

975
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:13,920
Speaker 1: few different ways. Write down some thoughts as you're hearing

976
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:18,080
Speaker 1: and it's circulating right now, and then consider tomorrow, read it,

977
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,600
Speaker 1: jot down a little bit more the next day, and

978
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:23,879
Speaker 1: spend the week with it. Spend some time with it,

979
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 1: give it, give it some space. How can everyone connect

980
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:29,759
Speaker 1: with you in your work? Thank you?

981
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:33,280
Speaker 2: As you mentioned earlier, I have a podcast called Cheaper

982
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:36,960
Speaker 2: Than Therapy, and my friend Vanessa Bennett, who's also a therapist,

983
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:39,480
Speaker 2: and I have a community, the Cheaper Than Therapy Community

984
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:43,080
Speaker 2: where people can come in and do group therapy and

985
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:46,800
Speaker 2: group work and processing in just like a really beautiful

986
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:50,400
Speaker 2: community that we've built. And yeah, and then I do

987
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:52,960
Speaker 2: a lot of you know, sharing of the content that

988
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:56,920
Speaker 2: we record and on retreats and things on social media.

989
00:55:57,080 --> 00:56:01,680
Speaker 2: So that just feels your Instagram. Oh it's dot Logan

990
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:05,640
Speaker 2: lo g A N. And I have this book coming

991
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:07,000
Speaker 2: out called Sovereign Love.

992
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:12,319
Speaker 1: Sovereign Love. It is available and all the places you

993
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:16,040
Speaker 1: get books, so make sure to get this book, spend

994
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:19,840
Speaker 1: some time with it. This is the work of our lives,

995
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:22,520
Speaker 1: love and relationship in all forms.

996
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:26,439
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you for just the way you're showing

997
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 2: up for this life. I can feel it in your energy.

998
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 2: It's just really really beautiful to be in your presence.

999
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you. Until next time, Thank you so

1000
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:45,239
Speaker 1: much for joining us. Now, Mistay Stay Stay Stay. The

1001
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 1: content presented on Deeply Well serves solely for educational and

1002
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:52,960
Speaker 1: informational purposes. It should not be considered a replacement for

1003
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:57,759
Speaker 1: personalized medical or mental health guidance and does not constitute

1004
00:56:57,840 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 1: a provider patient relationship. As always, it is advisable to

1005
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:05,880
Speaker 1: consult with your healthcare provider or health team for any

1006
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:10,719
Speaker 1: specific concerns or questions that you may have. Connect with

1007
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:14,560
Speaker 1: me on social at Debbie Brown that's Twitter and Instagram,

1008
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:17,120
Speaker 1: or you can go to my website Debbie Brown dot

1009
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:20,360
Speaker 1: com and if you're listening to the show on Apple Podcasts,

1010
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:24,720
Speaker 1: don't forget, Please rate, review, and subscribe and send this

1011
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:27,760
Speaker 1: episode to a friend. Deeply Well is a production of

1012
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:32,040
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and The Black Effect Network. It's produced by Jacquess Thomas,

1013
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:36,920
Speaker 1: Samantha Timmins, and me Debbie Brown. The Beautiful Soundbath You

1014
00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:42,000
Speaker 1: heard That's by Jarrelen Glass from Crystal Cadence. For more

1015
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:46,320
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1016
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:48,800
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.