1 00:00:15,396 --> 00:00:23,676 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 2 00:00:23,716 --> 00:00:26,676 Speaker 1: where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:27,156 --> 00:00:31,436 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. This season, we're talking about power and 4 00:00:31,516 --> 00:00:34,756 Speaker 1: the many ways that power shapes the most important stories 5 00:00:34,796 --> 00:00:38,716 Speaker 1: of our time. The pandemic has been profoundly difficult for 6 00:00:38,756 --> 00:00:43,356 Speaker 1: so many people, but anytime there's a disruptive situation, someone 7 00:00:43,476 --> 00:00:46,876 Speaker 1: figures out a way to benefit. Almost no one has 8 00:00:46,916 --> 00:00:51,476 Speaker 1: benefited more from COVID nineteen than Amazon dot Com. The 9 00:00:51,556 --> 00:00:55,156 Speaker 1: numbers are striking. In twenty twenty, the company saw a 10 00:00:55,276 --> 00:00:59,316 Speaker 1: nearly two hundred percent rise in profits and its sales 11 00:00:59,436 --> 00:01:02,916 Speaker 1: rose over thirty percent. For the first time, the company 12 00:01:02,916 --> 00:01:05,756 Speaker 1: employed more than a million workers global. It can be 13 00:01:05,796 --> 00:01:09,396 Speaker 1: a real challenge to understand the rise and impact act 14 00:01:09,516 --> 00:01:13,156 Speaker 1: of a company so big and with so much power, 15 00:01:13,756 --> 00:01:16,356 Speaker 1: But today we have someone here to help us. Alec 16 00:01:16,436 --> 00:01:19,596 Speaker 1: McGillis is an award winning journalist who covers politics and 17 00:01:19,636 --> 00:01:22,476 Speaker 1: government for Pro Publica. He's the author of the new 18 00:01:22,516 --> 00:01:27,516 Speaker 1: book Fulfillment, Winning and Losing in One Click America. It's 19 00:01:27,556 --> 00:01:30,836 Speaker 1: a book about Amazon, and it's also a book about 20 00:01:30,956 --> 00:01:33,756 Speaker 1: much more than Amazon. It's a book that's meant to 21 00:01:33,796 --> 00:01:38,316 Speaker 1: be about the ways Amazon symbolizes and embodies many of 22 00:01:38,316 --> 00:01:40,796 Speaker 1: the trends in the United States that have led to 23 00:01:40,836 --> 00:01:45,516 Speaker 1: growing inequality between rich people and poor people, and importantly 24 00:01:45,836 --> 00:01:49,956 Speaker 1: between richer and poorer geographical regions and even richer and 25 00:01:49,996 --> 00:01:54,276 Speaker 1: poor cities in close juxtaposition to each other. It's a 26 00:01:54,276 --> 00:01:58,636 Speaker 1: book that sets out to transcend its own subject, a 27 00:01:58,716 --> 00:02:02,116 Speaker 1: tall order for any book, and we have Alec McGillis 28 00:02:02,156 --> 00:02:05,516 Speaker 1: here to talk about it with us. Alex, thank you 29 00:02:05,596 --> 00:02:08,556 Speaker 1: so much for being here in congratulations on your very 30 00:02:08,596 --> 00:02:12,516 Speaker 1: bold an ambitious new book fulfillment. I want to begin 31 00:02:12,596 --> 00:02:16,156 Speaker 1: by asking you, how did you get the idea to 32 00:02:16,196 --> 00:02:19,636 Speaker 1: write a book that is both about Amazon and not 33 00:02:19,756 --> 00:02:24,796 Speaker 1: about Amazon? What road led you to this conception. The 34 00:02:24,876 --> 00:02:29,156 Speaker 1: road started really not with Amazon at all, but with this, 35 00:02:29,436 --> 00:02:32,396 Speaker 1: you know, this issue of regional inequality, these disparities that 36 00:02:32,436 --> 00:02:34,556 Speaker 1: I would see when I was going around the country 37 00:02:34,836 --> 00:02:38,556 Speaker 1: as a national reporter. I would go to the Midwest, 38 00:02:38,836 --> 00:02:41,996 Speaker 1: you know, or Appalacha or whatever it might be. In 39 00:02:42,076 --> 00:02:44,436 Speaker 1: these sort of great recession years. That's when I really 40 00:02:44,476 --> 00:02:48,116 Speaker 1: started doing that kind of serious national reporting and just 41 00:02:48,156 --> 00:02:51,436 Speaker 1: being so struck by these disparities, these cities out in 42 00:02:51,476 --> 00:02:54,956 Speaker 1: the Midwest that were just really reeling during the recession. 43 00:02:55,036 --> 00:02:57,116 Speaker 1: Then you'd come back to Washington and you see this 44 00:02:57,516 --> 00:03:02,396 Speaker 1: incredible prosperity on display and this total disconnect really with 45 00:03:02,516 --> 00:03:04,636 Speaker 1: what was going on elsewhere in the country. And it 46 00:03:04,716 --> 00:03:07,556 Speaker 1: kind of drove me crazy, just the complacency that you'd 47 00:03:07,556 --> 00:03:10,716 Speaker 1: see in Washington, no real notion of just how bad 48 00:03:10,756 --> 00:03:13,596 Speaker 1: things have gotten out there. And I saw it again 49 00:03:13,636 --> 00:03:16,236 Speaker 1: when I moved back up to Baltimore where I live now, 50 00:03:16,236 --> 00:03:18,956 Speaker 1: and just seeing in those forty miles between Baltimore and Washington, 51 00:03:19,076 --> 00:03:22,356 Speaker 1: just how huge the disparity was growing over wider and 52 00:03:22,436 --> 00:03:24,916 Speaker 1: wanting to write about that, and then after Trump got elected, 53 00:03:25,276 --> 00:03:29,556 Speaker 1: realizing just how big the political fallout from these divides was, 54 00:03:30,196 --> 00:03:32,636 Speaker 1: but then finally decided to write about it through the 55 00:03:32,676 --> 00:03:35,636 Speaker 1: frame of Amazon shows that as my frame, and shows 56 00:03:35,676 --> 00:03:37,796 Speaker 1: it as the frame for two reasons. One, the company 57 00:03:37,876 --> 00:03:40,356 Speaker 1: is now so ubiquitous that it's just a very kind 58 00:03:40,356 --> 00:03:42,396 Speaker 1: of handy way to take you around the country because 59 00:03:42,396 --> 00:03:44,956 Speaker 1: it's everywhere now in our life, so it's just a 60 00:03:44,956 --> 00:03:47,876 Speaker 1: good thread to sort of show who we are now 61 00:03:47,916 --> 00:03:50,556 Speaker 1: as a country. But more importantly, it was a good 62 00:03:50,596 --> 00:03:53,556 Speaker 1: frame because it itself helps to explain the problem. The 63 00:03:53,596 --> 00:03:57,596 Speaker 1: tech giants are a big reason for these these regional inequalities, 64 00:03:57,596 --> 00:04:02,116 Speaker 1: because the regional inequality is based partly in economic concentration. 65 00:04:02,196 --> 00:04:05,556 Speaker 1: The concentration of our economy in just a handful of 66 00:04:05,556 --> 00:04:09,036 Speaker 1: companies has driven a lot of this concentration of wealth 67 00:04:09,116 --> 00:04:13,196 Speaker 1: in certain places. Let me ask you first a historical 68 00:04:13,276 --> 00:04:15,996 Speaker 1: question and an economic question about this place you started 69 00:04:16,036 --> 00:04:19,716 Speaker 1: the regional inequalities. So when I think in a non 70 00:04:19,756 --> 00:04:23,556 Speaker 1: scientific way about the history of regional inequality and disparity 71 00:04:23,596 --> 00:04:25,556 Speaker 1: of wealth in the United States, my first instinct is 72 00:04:25,556 --> 00:04:28,756 Speaker 1: to say, that's almost baked into the history of the country. 73 00:04:28,876 --> 00:04:31,276 Speaker 1: You know. I think of the fight over ratifying the 74 00:04:31,356 --> 00:04:37,396 Speaker 1: Constitution in seventeen eighty nine, huge geographic difference in desire 75 00:04:37,436 --> 00:04:42,516 Speaker 1: to ratify, reflecting huge disparities in wealth between small farmers 76 00:04:42,636 --> 00:04:46,676 Speaker 1: in the interior and growing merchant class closer to the coasts. 77 00:04:47,116 --> 00:04:50,836 Speaker 1: Tell me whether you see the geographical disparity in wealth 78 00:04:50,876 --> 00:04:53,396 Speaker 1: that you're seeing now as in some way different in 79 00:04:53,516 --> 00:04:56,436 Speaker 1: kind than the kinds of disparities that we saw in 80 00:04:56,436 --> 00:04:59,356 Speaker 1: the United States at other moments when our economy was 81 00:04:59,396 --> 00:05:02,236 Speaker 1: shifting to a new kind of economy. I see it 82 00:05:02,436 --> 00:05:06,036 Speaker 1: it's different both in degree and kind. For starters, while 83 00:05:06,076 --> 00:05:08,636 Speaker 1: we've always have had wealthier and poorer places in the country, 84 00:05:08,636 --> 00:05:11,116 Speaker 1: of course, the gaps have just gotten a lot bigger, 85 00:05:11,276 --> 00:05:13,236 Speaker 1: just the way that the gaps have gotten lot bigger 86 00:05:13,356 --> 00:05:16,156 Speaker 1: on the income ladder between you the one percent and 87 00:05:16,236 --> 00:05:19,596 Speaker 1: nine nine percent, so have the regional gaps gotten bigger. So, 88 00:05:19,636 --> 00:05:23,676 Speaker 1: for instance, as recently as nineteen eighty, there were only 89 00:05:23,756 --> 00:05:26,836 Speaker 1: certain small parts of our country that had median income 90 00:05:26,916 --> 00:05:31,156 Speaker 1: that was twenty percent or greater than the average, or 91 00:05:31,876 --> 00:05:35,036 Speaker 1: twenty percent or lower than the than the average. Most 92 00:05:35,036 --> 00:05:37,116 Speaker 1: of the country kind of clustered close to the median. 93 00:05:37,516 --> 00:05:41,276 Speaker 1: Now huge swaths of the country are above that plus 94 00:05:41,356 --> 00:05:45,476 Speaker 1: twenty percent line or below twenty percent and below the average. 95 00:05:45,836 --> 00:05:49,116 Speaker 1: So just great growth at the extremes of wealthier and 96 00:05:49,156 --> 00:05:52,956 Speaker 1: poorer regions. But I also see it as different in kind. 97 00:05:53,196 --> 00:05:55,236 Speaker 1: What has happened and has a lot to do with 98 00:05:55,476 --> 00:05:59,036 Speaker 1: sort of tech dominated economy. What's happened is that the 99 00:05:59,036 --> 00:06:03,996 Speaker 1: tech economy encourages agglomeration of prosperity and dynamism, and in 100 00:06:03,996 --> 00:06:06,836 Speaker 1: a way that did not happen during this sort of 101 00:06:07,396 --> 00:06:10,876 Speaker 1: the manufacturing heavy on me that we had for most 102 00:06:10,956 --> 00:06:14,036 Speaker 1: of the twentieth century. In a manufacturing economy, one stable 103 00:06:14,036 --> 00:06:16,036 Speaker 1: way of thinking about it is that once you come 104 00:06:16,116 --> 00:06:19,756 Speaker 1: up with a given advance, say the steelmaking process, you 105 00:06:19,756 --> 00:06:23,076 Speaker 1: could take that technology that advance anywhere that had the 106 00:06:23,156 --> 00:06:27,316 Speaker 1: manpower in the national resources and the transportation links, and 107 00:06:27,356 --> 00:06:30,556 Speaker 1: you could build a steel mill. And and that's so 108 00:06:30,676 --> 00:06:33,356 Speaker 1: you had those all over all across the Northeast in 109 00:06:33,396 --> 00:06:37,476 Speaker 1: the Midwest. The tech economy is different. The value lies 110 00:06:37,716 --> 00:06:41,156 Speaker 1: entirely in the almost entirely in the initial innovation. It's 111 00:06:41,156 --> 00:06:44,516 Speaker 1: all about coming up with the advances, creating the software, 112 00:06:44,636 --> 00:06:47,556 Speaker 1: creating the app, whatever it might be. And and so 113 00:06:47,596 --> 00:06:51,156 Speaker 1: it's all about having the human capital to prove that innovation. 114 00:06:51,316 --> 00:06:55,916 Speaker 1: And those innovations come often through proximity, through the proximity 115 00:06:55,956 --> 00:07:00,436 Speaker 1: of having all those great minds together with each other 116 00:07:00,556 --> 00:07:03,436 Speaker 1: and with a great end with a capital to fund 117 00:07:03,436 --> 00:07:05,556 Speaker 1: their work. That's how you end up with sort of 118 00:07:05,556 --> 00:07:08,796 Speaker 1: the growth of clusters, like like a Silicon valley, where 119 00:07:09,196 --> 00:07:13,476 Speaker 1: despite the incredible expense of living there and doing business there, 120 00:07:14,156 --> 00:07:17,076 Speaker 1: you know, in the sort of dystopian levels of wealth 121 00:07:17,076 --> 00:07:20,316 Speaker 1: and congestion and kind of unaffordability of those places, they 122 00:07:20,356 --> 00:07:22,716 Speaker 1: still exert a pull because you sort of feel like 123 00:07:22,756 --> 00:07:24,476 Speaker 1: you need to be there and TB in the mix, 124 00:07:24,876 --> 00:07:27,916 Speaker 1: and so you end up within a conglomeration of wealth 125 00:07:28,156 --> 00:07:30,836 Speaker 1: sort that we really on levels that we have not 126 00:07:30,996 --> 00:07:35,276 Speaker 1: had before. It really is a new kind of thing. Well, 127 00:07:35,316 --> 00:07:38,196 Speaker 1: we feel like we've always had wealth here and poor cities. 128 00:07:38,236 --> 00:07:40,276 Speaker 1: In fact, what we're dealing with now is on a 129 00:07:40,276 --> 00:07:44,516 Speaker 1: different scale. That leads to my second question about the 130 00:07:44,716 --> 00:07:47,156 Speaker 1: agglomeration thing, which is that when it comes to I 131 00:07:47,156 --> 00:07:49,036 Speaker 1: don't know, let's say a social media company that in 132 00:07:49,156 --> 00:07:52,516 Speaker 1: raw numbers doesn't have that many employees, but it's super rich, 133 00:07:53,356 --> 00:07:56,756 Speaker 1: there is some sort of human capital feature. Amazon in 134 00:07:56,796 --> 00:07:59,316 Speaker 1: a way seems like a different kind of company in 135 00:07:59,396 --> 00:08:03,516 Speaker 1: that it's not primarily just based on its technology. It 136 00:08:03,556 --> 00:08:06,556 Speaker 1: has technology. Businesses are that probably do benefit from this. 137 00:08:07,076 --> 00:08:10,196 Speaker 1: But with respect to a lot of what Amazon does, 138 00:08:10,796 --> 00:08:14,276 Speaker 1: it is capable of being less agglomerated. It is capable 139 00:08:14,316 --> 00:08:18,596 Speaker 1: of being more for far flung and more distributed. So 140 00:08:18,916 --> 00:08:23,596 Speaker 1: I wonder about how you see Amazon itself fitting into 141 00:08:23,636 --> 00:08:26,756 Speaker 1: that model that you're describing, the model where agglomeration of 142 00:08:26,796 --> 00:08:28,716 Speaker 1: people and putting them near each other has made some 143 00:08:28,756 --> 00:08:32,636 Speaker 1: places super rich as opposed to other places. I see 144 00:08:32,676 --> 00:08:35,276 Speaker 1: Amazon a very much as actually as fitting into that 145 00:08:35,316 --> 00:08:38,356 Speaker 1: model makes the Amazon different than of Google or Facebook 146 00:08:38,756 --> 00:08:41,636 Speaker 1: is that it has a mass workforce that is in 147 00:08:41,676 --> 00:08:44,516 Speaker 1: the warehouses, that is in the fulfillment centers, and is 148 00:08:45,116 --> 00:08:49,156 Speaker 1: doing the actual physical work of delivering these physical products. 149 00:08:49,236 --> 00:08:52,596 Speaker 1: Which is what made it so appealing for me to 150 00:08:52,676 --> 00:08:54,636 Speaker 1: use them as my frame, is that you actually have 151 00:08:55,196 --> 00:08:57,596 Speaker 1: a physical manifestation of the company and all the sort 152 00:08:57,676 --> 00:08:59,836 Speaker 1: reforms out around the country in a way that Google 153 00:08:59,836 --> 00:09:03,276 Speaker 1: and Facebook do not. There's just a landscape and ecosystem 154 00:09:03,276 --> 00:09:06,156 Speaker 1: to writing on Amazon that they lack. But as far 155 00:09:06,196 --> 00:09:11,156 Speaker 1: as the actual headquarters operate of Amazon, it is very 156 00:09:11,236 --> 00:09:16,076 Speaker 1: much a classic case of aglamoration. The reason why Jeff 157 00:09:16,116 --> 00:09:20,036 Speaker 1: Bezos chose Seattle early on to locate his company was 158 00:09:20,116 --> 00:09:23,036 Speaker 1: partly because there were tax advantages to doing so, to 159 00:09:23,116 --> 00:09:26,276 Speaker 1: putting the company in Seattle not in California, but also 160 00:09:26,356 --> 00:09:28,876 Speaker 1: because Microsoft was already in Seattle and he knew there 161 00:09:28,916 --> 00:09:32,996 Speaker 1: was a workforce, a skilled tech workforce there that he 162 00:09:33,036 --> 00:09:36,836 Speaker 1: could draw on in building his company and just as 163 00:09:36,996 --> 00:09:40,716 Speaker 1: now in setting out to build his second headquarters. Because 164 00:09:41,596 --> 00:09:45,436 Speaker 1: Amazon was outgrowing Seattle with forty five thousand tech employees, 165 00:09:45,476 --> 00:09:49,276 Speaker 1: crammed into crammed into the city. They need a new home, 166 00:09:49,476 --> 00:09:52,036 Speaker 1: and what city do they choose for their new home? 167 00:09:52,076 --> 00:09:55,396 Speaker 1: But Washing Union, DC, a city that also has a 168 00:09:55,516 --> 00:09:59,436 Speaker 1: large skilled tech heavy workforce as a result of all 169 00:09:59,436 --> 00:10:03,396 Speaker 1: those IT contractors in the DC area that they could 170 00:10:03,476 --> 00:10:05,716 Speaker 1: draw off of. And then you look at the other 171 00:10:05,836 --> 00:10:09,876 Speaker 1: their smaller satellite offices of several house in each and 172 00:10:09,916 --> 00:10:13,356 Speaker 1: those are all in the tech capital. So you Boston 173 00:10:13,476 --> 00:10:15,036 Speaker 1: now is just they're just announced that they're going to 174 00:10:15,356 --> 00:10:18,836 Speaker 1: expand to Boston up to about seven thousand salary tech 175 00:10:18,916 --> 00:10:21,836 Speaker 1: types in Boston, New York's second headquarters in New York, 176 00:10:21,836 --> 00:10:24,476 Speaker 1: they're getting several thousand more theirs. You got a bunch 177 00:10:24,476 --> 00:10:26,316 Speaker 1: in the Bay Area, they got a bunch in Austin. 178 00:10:26,876 --> 00:10:29,836 Speaker 1: So it's very much a case of them putting those 179 00:10:29,836 --> 00:10:33,276 Speaker 1: people in the places where there are a lot others 180 00:10:33,276 --> 00:10:37,796 Speaker 1: of those people. One of the really beautiful things about 181 00:10:37,836 --> 00:10:39,956 Speaker 1: the book is the way that you go out to 182 00:10:40,116 --> 00:10:44,236 Speaker 1: these fulfilming centers all over the country and tell at 183 00:10:44,236 --> 00:10:47,556 Speaker 1: a very human level. The reader really gets the feeling 184 00:10:47,556 --> 00:10:49,196 Speaker 1: of getting to know a little bit about the people 185 00:10:49,196 --> 00:10:50,876 Speaker 1: whom you've interviewed, and you've really gotten to know them 186 00:10:50,876 --> 00:10:55,156 Speaker 1: in depth, who are experiencing the effects of Amazon's economic power, 187 00:10:56,076 --> 00:10:58,356 Speaker 1: That is, they are dealing with the reality that they 188 00:10:58,396 --> 00:11:01,036 Speaker 1: don't have much negotiating power of their own. Visavi, this 189 00:11:01,316 --> 00:11:04,156 Speaker 1: huge employer who may ultimately be the only really available 190 00:11:04,196 --> 00:11:06,476 Speaker 1: employer in town, or the only employer at scale in town. 191 00:11:07,036 --> 00:11:11,356 Speaker 1: And you show compellingly that the company exercises that economic 192 00:11:11,396 --> 00:11:15,676 Speaker 1: power with respect to wages, with respect to hours, with 193 00:11:15,756 --> 00:11:20,116 Speaker 1: respect to work conditions, and you humanize that. And I 194 00:11:20,116 --> 00:11:22,916 Speaker 1: think that's tremendously powerful and a great contributions of the book. 195 00:11:23,676 --> 00:11:26,916 Speaker 1: As I read those descriptions, the thought that kept running 196 00:11:26,916 --> 00:11:30,876 Speaker 1: through my mind was this is all terribly upsetting. But 197 00:11:31,116 --> 00:11:33,836 Speaker 1: isn't it always very upsetting when one sees the operation 198 00:11:33,916 --> 00:11:37,316 Speaker 1: of capitalism in practice? You know, if we were looking 199 00:11:37,356 --> 00:11:40,116 Speaker 1: at other industries that were not as much in the news, 200 00:11:40,156 --> 00:11:43,556 Speaker 1: that we weren't as reliant on, wouldn't we also see 201 00:11:44,036 --> 00:11:47,036 Speaker 1: those with economic power I mean capital, That is to say, 202 00:11:47,196 --> 00:11:50,236 Speaker 1: when capital is able to do it exercising all the 203 00:11:50,276 --> 00:11:52,196 Speaker 1: power that it can exercise to try to pay as 204 00:11:52,236 --> 00:11:54,716 Speaker 1: workers as little as possible and extract as much at 205 00:11:54,716 --> 00:11:57,156 Speaker 1: work as possible from them. I'm not saying that's Okay, 206 00:11:57,716 --> 00:11:59,436 Speaker 1: you know, and that is obviously part of the history 207 00:11:59,476 --> 00:12:02,436 Speaker 1: of why capital it has struggled with labor for the 208 00:12:02,516 --> 00:12:05,316 Speaker 1: last one hundred and eight or so years so intensely. 209 00:12:05,716 --> 00:12:10,556 Speaker 1: But is there something about this struggle that's really distinctive? 210 00:12:10,956 --> 00:12:12,796 Speaker 1: Were different in that way other than the fact that 211 00:12:12,836 --> 00:12:18,396 Speaker 1: Amazon's really darned powerful. I've thought a lot about this, 212 00:12:18,476 --> 00:12:21,516 Speaker 1: and I and the chapter where I kind of take 213 00:12:21,516 --> 00:12:24,916 Speaker 1: this on at its core iss the chapter on the 214 00:12:24,996 --> 00:12:29,356 Speaker 1: extraordinary transformation of a place outside Baltimore called Sparrow's Point, 215 00:12:29,996 --> 00:12:34,436 Speaker 1: which it's peninsula just southeast of the city, and it 216 00:12:34,516 --> 00:12:37,436 Speaker 1: was the home to the largest steel plant in the world, 217 00:12:37,836 --> 00:12:41,516 Speaker 1: Betheheim Steel Plant, that had at its peak about thirty 218 00:12:41,516 --> 00:12:44,836 Speaker 1: thousand people working. There's a huge company town like right 219 00:12:44,996 --> 00:12:49,476 Speaker 1: adjacent to the steel millages. It's vast industrial works. When 220 00:12:49,596 --> 00:12:52,596 Speaker 1: things started out there in the early twentieth century, it 221 00:12:52,676 --> 00:12:55,996 Speaker 1: was indeed very brutal place. It was just you had 222 00:12:56,276 --> 00:13:01,316 Speaker 1: incredibly low paid workforce with unbelievably rough hours. Two days 223 00:13:01,356 --> 00:13:04,396 Speaker 1: off a year, two holidays off year, Christmas and July fourth. 224 00:13:04,836 --> 00:13:07,676 Speaker 1: They were making about a dollar a day doing incredibly 225 00:13:07,716 --> 00:13:13,356 Speaker 1: dangerous work, incredibly demanding conditions, and no say on the job, 226 00:13:13,956 --> 00:13:17,396 Speaker 1: and you ended up finally, of course, over the next 227 00:13:17,436 --> 00:13:22,156 Speaker 1: few decades with an improvement of conditions, thanks heavily to 228 00:13:22,196 --> 00:13:25,596 Speaker 1: the fact that they got organized, And so you ended 229 00:13:25,676 --> 00:13:28,596 Speaker 1: up with those jobs becoming for the latter part of 230 00:13:28,596 --> 00:13:32,476 Speaker 1: the twentieth century much better paid. Jobs that were still 231 00:13:32,716 --> 00:13:36,356 Speaker 1: very treacherous, very dangerous, very challenging, but the middle class 232 00:13:36,396 --> 00:13:38,556 Speaker 1: jobs you could support a family on where they had 233 00:13:38,636 --> 00:13:41,316 Speaker 1: much more say on the job, jobs that made good 234 00:13:41,316 --> 00:13:44,436 Speaker 1: money and found to some degree purposeful. That mail has 235 00:13:44,436 --> 00:13:46,476 Speaker 1: now been wiped completely off the face of the earth, 236 00:13:46,636 --> 00:13:50,116 Speaker 1: declined steadily, relentlessly until the Foundly went out of business 237 00:13:50,116 --> 00:13:52,116 Speaker 1: in twenty twelve. Has been wiped off the face of 238 00:13:52,156 --> 00:13:55,396 Speaker 1: the map, and it's been replaced by a logistics park 239 00:13:55,796 --> 00:13:59,036 Speaker 1: which includes a two Amazon warehouses. And I actually found 240 00:13:59,036 --> 00:14:01,676 Speaker 1: a man who worked at the wheel for thirty years 241 00:14:01,716 --> 00:14:04,876 Speaker 1: and now went to work at the warehouse, making way 242 00:14:04,956 --> 00:14:09,276 Speaker 1: less money and feeling much less purpose in sensive camaraderie 243 00:14:09,316 --> 00:14:14,076 Speaker 1: on the job. And and so I I do think that, 244 00:14:14,356 --> 00:14:16,636 Speaker 1: of course, you know, anytime I can think of job, 245 00:14:16,756 --> 00:14:19,516 Speaker 1: other sorts of jobs now that if we look closely 246 00:14:19,516 --> 00:14:22,876 Speaker 1: at them, with seem pretty bleak and horrific. I think, 247 00:14:22,876 --> 00:14:25,236 Speaker 1: you know, for instance, what we've learned about the meat 248 00:14:25,276 --> 00:14:27,876 Speaker 1: packing plants during in the age of COVID and just 249 00:14:27,956 --> 00:14:31,396 Speaker 1: what reality is like there is bleaker yet then, of course, 250 00:14:31,436 --> 00:14:33,996 Speaker 1: than what we see in the warehouses now. But if 251 00:14:33,996 --> 00:14:37,236 Speaker 1: we compare the warehouses with what has come before them, 252 00:14:37,276 --> 00:14:41,996 Speaker 1: a sort of a mass workplace, a place where where 253 00:14:41,996 --> 00:14:45,236 Speaker 1: the average American worker looking for a job can expect 254 00:14:45,276 --> 00:14:47,716 Speaker 1: to go to work that is now has now increasingly 255 00:14:47,716 --> 00:14:51,716 Speaker 1: become one of these warehouses. They're so ubiquitous, they're they're 256 00:14:51,756 --> 00:14:55,356 Speaker 1: so huge, they're so rapidly growing. They are in a 257 00:14:55,396 --> 00:14:57,516 Speaker 1: way now the mass workplace of our country. And if 258 00:14:57,516 --> 00:15:00,116 Speaker 1: you compare them to what became before them at a 259 00:15:00,116 --> 00:15:03,716 Speaker 1: place like Sparrow's Point a mill, where workers were making 260 00:15:03,836 --> 00:15:07,396 Speaker 1: far more than they're making now in these warehouses, and 261 00:15:08,036 --> 00:15:10,116 Speaker 1: you know, have had more sense of a meaning and 262 00:15:10,196 --> 00:15:12,836 Speaker 1: purpose in their daily life. Or if you compare them 263 00:15:12,916 --> 00:15:17,236 Speaker 1: to the retail experience that these warehouses have in some 264 00:15:17,316 --> 00:15:19,876 Speaker 1: sense sort of replaced the experience of the department store 265 00:15:19,996 --> 00:15:22,676 Speaker 1: clerk that's been sort of wiped out by the e 266 00:15:22,676 --> 00:15:26,236 Speaker 1: commerce revolution, I'm not sure that we would say that 267 00:15:26,316 --> 00:15:30,636 Speaker 1: necessarily that the warehouse experience is no bleaker than those 268 00:15:30,716 --> 00:15:33,476 Speaker 1: things that replaced. I would say that both of those 269 00:15:33,596 --> 00:15:38,036 Speaker 1: other experiences had some kind of a level of better 270 00:15:38,076 --> 00:15:41,356 Speaker 1: working conditions conceivably and also more of a sense of 271 00:15:41,436 --> 00:15:46,116 Speaker 1: basic humanity and connectiveness than what is now on offer 272 00:15:46,796 --> 00:15:52,716 Speaker 1: in the vast windowless warehouse. The root causes of that 273 00:15:52,916 --> 00:15:56,396 Speaker 1: transformation seemed to me to be two, and I want 274 00:15:56,436 --> 00:15:58,756 Speaker 1: to ask you about both of them. They're both addressed, 275 00:15:58,756 --> 00:16:01,116 Speaker 1: i would say, obliquely in your book, but not centrally. 276 00:16:01,596 --> 00:16:04,796 Speaker 1: One is globalization, which is what brought down the American 277 00:16:05,396 --> 00:16:08,716 Speaker 1: steel mill. It just became much less expensive to produce 278 00:16:08,756 --> 00:16:12,356 Speaker 1: steel in other places around the world. And the second 279 00:16:12,476 --> 00:16:14,396 Speaker 1: is and that of course is repeated across a wide 280 00:16:14,476 --> 00:16:18,676 Speaker 1: range of construction industries. And the other is unionization. Right 281 00:16:19,076 --> 00:16:22,956 Speaker 1: when the Sparrows Point Steel plant was at its worst, 282 00:16:22,956 --> 00:16:24,956 Speaker 1: it's because there weren't yet unions there. And then with 283 00:16:24,996 --> 00:16:27,196 Speaker 1: the growth and the rise of unions towards their peak 284 00:16:27,236 --> 00:16:29,116 Speaker 1: in the middle of the twentieth century in the US, 285 00:16:29,516 --> 00:16:31,556 Speaker 1: the jobs got quote unquote better in the sense that 286 00:16:31,636 --> 00:16:35,356 Speaker 1: conditions improved and pay improved. And then with the decline 287 00:16:35,356 --> 00:16:36,996 Speaker 1: of unions, which of course is linked in some ways 288 00:16:37,036 --> 00:16:39,276 Speaker 1: to globalization too. They're not totally independent of each other. 289 00:16:39,596 --> 00:16:41,956 Speaker 1: Those jobs, as you say, disappeared through as it were, 290 00:16:41,996 --> 00:16:45,356 Speaker 1: no fault of Amazons, right, and then the idea of 291 00:16:45,396 --> 00:16:47,996 Speaker 1: what they get replaced with. Yes, it's connected to the 292 00:16:47,996 --> 00:16:50,676 Speaker 1: e commerce revolution, but in the end, the core point 293 00:16:50,756 --> 00:16:53,636 Speaker 1: is that the stuff that we buy and sell isn't 294 00:16:53,716 --> 00:16:57,196 Speaker 1: any more made in the United States, never will be, 295 00:16:58,516 --> 00:17:01,036 Speaker 1: so I wonder. And unions have also been very much 296 00:17:01,036 --> 00:17:03,756 Speaker 1: in the news because of efforts in Alabama to unionize 297 00:17:03,516 --> 00:17:06,196 Speaker 1: parts of Amazon. So I wonder if you just reflect 298 00:17:06,236 --> 00:17:08,756 Speaker 1: on those forces, you know, the global press, which is 299 00:17:08,756 --> 00:17:12,076 Speaker 1: what rid of those quote unquote good jobs, and then 300 00:17:12,076 --> 00:17:16,276 Speaker 1: the unionization, which may be a partial solution, but even 301 00:17:16,316 --> 00:17:18,356 Speaker 1: by your account, doesn't sound like a total solution. It 302 00:17:18,356 --> 00:17:20,796 Speaker 1: sounds like those jobs in the warehouses would still be 303 00:17:20,796 --> 00:17:22,996 Speaker 1: pretty bleak, to use your word, even if they were 304 00:17:23,076 --> 00:17:27,956 Speaker 1: unionized and had better conditions and paid better. If the 305 00:17:27,956 --> 00:17:30,516 Speaker 1: warehouse has got unionized in years to come, it would 306 00:17:30,516 --> 00:17:32,436 Speaker 1: be a really big deal. I do believe it would be. 307 00:17:32,636 --> 00:17:35,676 Speaker 1: It would serve to some degree to kind of term 308 00:17:35,556 --> 00:17:39,116 Speaker 1: the arc of history and a couple notches forward again, 309 00:17:39,596 --> 00:17:41,556 Speaker 1: so that in a place like Sparrows point where you 310 00:17:41,916 --> 00:17:43,516 Speaker 1: now are back to kind of square one, with a 311 00:17:43,556 --> 00:17:48,876 Speaker 1: non unionized workforce working really demanding job pay less than 312 00:17:48,996 --> 00:17:52,036 Speaker 1: what they're owed, with very little say on the job. 313 00:17:52,116 --> 00:17:55,156 Speaker 1: If you could then kind of lift those jobs up 314 00:17:55,436 --> 00:17:58,676 Speaker 1: to something that's supported a more sort of stable middle 315 00:17:58,676 --> 00:18:03,196 Speaker 1: class kind of existence, with some more sense of voice 316 00:18:03,396 --> 00:18:05,876 Speaker 1: and respect and dignity on dignity on a job if 317 00:18:05,916 --> 00:18:08,076 Speaker 1: they if they pull us off. So it really is 318 00:18:08,116 --> 00:18:10,596 Speaker 1: a big deal. I mean, if you absolutely can see, 319 00:18:11,156 --> 00:18:14,036 Speaker 1: um this the spreading to other warehouses. And the fact 320 00:18:14,116 --> 00:18:18,236 Speaker 1: is that as difficult it is to unionize in this 321 00:18:18,636 --> 00:18:21,516 Speaker 1: day and time, and as aggressively as Amazon has fought it, 322 00:18:21,796 --> 00:18:25,516 Speaker 1: the warehouses are actually relatively well suited to unionization in 323 00:18:25,516 --> 00:18:28,156 Speaker 1: a way that too many other forms of our certain 324 00:18:28,156 --> 00:18:31,076 Speaker 1: contemporary work are not. You know, it's it's really hard 325 00:18:31,076 --> 00:18:34,836 Speaker 1: to unionize the gig workers, the uber drivers, that it 326 00:18:34,876 --> 00:18:38,356 Speaker 1: exists outside of kind of a normal employment kind of realm, 327 00:18:38,756 --> 00:18:41,636 Speaker 1: Whereas whereas the warehouses, you've got thousands of people in 328 00:18:41,636 --> 00:18:44,196 Speaker 1: one place, and so you you you could see it 329 00:18:44,236 --> 00:18:47,116 Speaker 1: spreading and that's why, um, you know, it's also not 330 00:18:47,476 --> 00:18:50,236 Speaker 1: inconceivable that Amazon is going to be so worried about 331 00:18:50,236 --> 00:18:53,876 Speaker 1: the spread that there's people who floated the prospect that 332 00:18:53,916 --> 00:18:56,676 Speaker 1: they might shut this place down if it were about yes, 333 00:18:56,956 --> 00:18:59,996 Speaker 1: that that's how that's how much of a threat who 334 00:18:59,996 --> 00:19:03,116 Speaker 1: would be to them for this to become a president, 335 00:19:03,276 --> 00:19:06,236 Speaker 1: and that they would want to do anything possible to 336 00:19:06,236 --> 00:19:10,916 Speaker 1: to just just just quash it. So the stakes really 337 00:19:10,956 --> 00:19:14,636 Speaker 1: are are quite large. But but as for the larger forces, 338 00:19:15,036 --> 00:19:16,916 Speaker 1: this is something that the Amazon talked a lot about 339 00:19:16,996 --> 00:19:18,916 Speaker 1: when I was discussing the book with them, and they said, 340 00:19:18,996 --> 00:19:21,076 Speaker 1: you know, look, these are all these are all larger 341 00:19:21,116 --> 00:19:22,756 Speaker 1: forces at work here that have kind of brought us 342 00:19:22,796 --> 00:19:26,956 Speaker 1: to this point technology globalization, where we just happened to 343 00:19:26,996 --> 00:19:30,036 Speaker 1: be the company that's that's kind of come to fill 344 00:19:30,116 --> 00:19:34,196 Speaker 1: this this slot. And if it wasn't us, some company 345 00:19:34,236 --> 00:19:37,316 Speaker 1: called something else doing what we're doing now, and it 346 00:19:37,396 --> 00:19:40,436 Speaker 1: just happens to be us. And and that's true to 347 00:19:40,476 --> 00:19:42,956 Speaker 1: some extent. But I think there's a tendency among a 348 00:19:42,956 --> 00:19:45,076 Speaker 1: lot of us to kind of especially a lot including 349 00:19:45,076 --> 00:19:47,636 Speaker 1: a lot of like sort of liberal wrong types, to 350 00:19:47,716 --> 00:19:50,156 Speaker 1: kind of often to sort of ascribe too much, to 351 00:19:50,236 --> 00:19:55,116 Speaker 1: sort of grant systemic structural forces and leave personal and 352 00:19:55,556 --> 00:19:59,196 Speaker 1: corporate responsibility out of the picture. I mean, there are 353 00:19:59,276 --> 00:20:02,796 Speaker 1: choices that the company has made over the years that 354 00:20:02,876 --> 00:20:06,756 Speaker 1: have made these Some of these problems especially acute. The 355 00:20:06,836 --> 00:20:10,116 Speaker 1: things that described in the book, the the aggressiveness with 356 00:20:10,116 --> 00:20:13,916 Speaker 1: which the company has from its very founding pursued tax 357 00:20:13,956 --> 00:20:17,236 Speaker 1: avoidance at all different levels. The the extremity of it 358 00:20:17,396 --> 00:20:21,356 Speaker 1: of the demands, the production demands in the warehouses, the 359 00:20:21,396 --> 00:20:26,236 Speaker 1: fact that it has that a further exacerbated regional inequality 360 00:20:26,076 --> 00:20:28,796 Speaker 1: by choosing to put the big second headquarters in the 361 00:20:28,876 --> 00:20:33,236 Speaker 1: richest city in America, Washington, DC, instead of seeing this 362 00:20:33,316 --> 00:20:36,796 Speaker 1: as an opportunity to somehow spread spread the wealth a 363 00:20:36,876 --> 00:20:39,516 Speaker 1: little bit by putting the company in the Saint Louis 364 00:20:39,596 --> 00:20:43,356 Speaker 1: or Cleveland. These are all choices that the company made, 365 00:20:43,356 --> 00:20:46,716 Speaker 1: and so I do think absolutely there are larger structural 366 00:20:46,756 --> 00:20:48,716 Speaker 1: forces at work. In the book is not intended to 367 00:20:49,636 --> 00:20:54,236 Speaker 1: somehow hold the Amazon Singly responsible for everything about the 368 00:20:54,236 --> 00:20:56,876 Speaker 1: way we live and we are today. The company's partly 369 00:20:56,996 --> 00:21:00,396 Speaker 1: is probably, as I said, the outset also an expression, 370 00:21:00,396 --> 00:21:02,836 Speaker 1: a symptom of metaphor first sort of who we are now. 371 00:21:03,196 --> 00:21:06,076 Speaker 1: But it is also partly an explanation and a cause 372 00:21:07,836 --> 00:21:20,276 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. One of the pairings that you 373 00:21:20,316 --> 00:21:23,676 Speaker 1: do a great job of highlighting in the book is 374 00:21:23,716 --> 00:21:27,116 Speaker 1: the Washington, DC, with its tremendous economic growth in recent 375 00:21:27,156 --> 00:21:30,876 Speaker 1: decades versus Baltimore just a short distance away. And you've 376 00:21:30,876 --> 00:21:32,716 Speaker 1: written both for the for the Baltimore Sun and for 377 00:21:32,716 --> 00:21:36,396 Speaker 1: the Washington Post, so you're ideally qualified to write about this. 378 00:21:37,116 --> 00:21:40,076 Speaker 1: And you say that the disparity between the two is 379 00:21:40,436 --> 00:21:42,916 Speaker 1: sort of like their different worlds, which I agree with entirely. 380 00:21:43,396 --> 00:21:46,236 Speaker 1: You also say that it's unprecedented. And I sort of 381 00:21:46,236 --> 00:21:49,036 Speaker 1: wondered about the unprecedented part because I immediately thought of Newark, 382 00:21:49,156 --> 00:21:52,316 Speaker 1: New Jersey, and New York, New York, which I'm not sure. 383 00:21:52,356 --> 00:21:54,116 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, new works a lot smaller than New York, 384 00:21:54,156 --> 00:21:57,036 Speaker 1: but they're pretty darned close together. And you know, Newark 385 00:21:57,116 --> 00:22:01,996 Speaker 1: once had a thriving middle class and then didn't. And 386 00:22:02,036 --> 00:22:04,756 Speaker 1: the disparity is really extraordinary because parts of New York 387 00:22:04,756 --> 00:22:06,756 Speaker 1: are among the poorest places in the United States. Of course, 388 00:22:06,756 --> 00:22:09,356 Speaker 1: so are some parts of New York City itself. Could 389 00:22:09,356 --> 00:22:11,756 Speaker 1: also argue that, you know, East New York, taken as 390 00:22:11,756 --> 00:22:16,196 Speaker 1: its own city, is extraordinarily disparate in its poverty relative 391 00:22:16,236 --> 00:22:19,236 Speaker 1: to the unimaginable wealth of Manhattan, and you know, you 392 00:22:19,236 --> 00:22:21,596 Speaker 1: can almost see one from the other. That's that's how 393 00:22:21,636 --> 00:22:23,796 Speaker 1: close they are to each other. And it made me 394 00:22:23,836 --> 00:22:28,876 Speaker 1: wonder again if this kind of just tremendous wealth disparity 395 00:22:29,876 --> 00:22:34,036 Speaker 1: isn't kind of cooked into capitalism, or cooked into American capitalism, 396 00:22:34,036 --> 00:22:37,196 Speaker 1: and maybe in a certain way long has been. That's 397 00:22:37,196 --> 00:22:38,756 Speaker 1: not to excuse it. You know, it could be just 398 00:22:38,796 --> 00:22:41,076 Speaker 1: as bad if it's been going on all the time. 399 00:22:41,116 --> 00:22:42,636 Speaker 1: I mean, that'd be sort of like saying that, you know, 400 00:22:42,716 --> 00:22:46,196 Speaker 1: racial injustice in the United States today is unpresented. It isn't. 401 00:22:46,236 --> 00:22:48,916 Speaker 1: We've had racial injustice of an even more extreme form 402 00:22:48,956 --> 00:22:50,876 Speaker 1: throughout most of our history. It still makes the irracial 403 00:22:50,876 --> 00:22:53,876 Speaker 1: injustice we have really evil. So it's not that if 404 00:22:53,876 --> 00:22:55,956 Speaker 1: something has been around for a long time that excuses it, 405 00:22:56,116 --> 00:22:57,916 Speaker 1: And I don't mean to be suggesting that it would. 406 00:22:58,396 --> 00:23:01,676 Speaker 1: It just made me wonder about the rich get rich 407 00:23:01,756 --> 00:23:06,436 Speaker 1: or poor get poorer elements that are built into capitalism itself. 408 00:23:06,476 --> 00:23:08,716 Speaker 1: With the small exception of that period in the middle 409 00:23:08,716 --> 00:23:11,716 Speaker 1: of the twenty century, when because of unionization and the 410 00:23:12,116 --> 00:23:14,396 Speaker 1: results of World War two, roughly speaking, in a rapidly 411 00:23:14,436 --> 00:23:18,156 Speaker 1: growing economy, we got something like the burgeoning middle class 412 00:23:18,196 --> 00:23:20,596 Speaker 1: that we now like to think back on as almost 413 00:23:20,596 --> 00:23:24,076 Speaker 1: an idealized moment. I think it is different though, what 414 00:23:24,196 --> 00:23:26,476 Speaker 1: we have now. I think there's something especially stark about 415 00:23:26,596 --> 00:23:29,676 Speaker 1: two having two actual cities of actually quite similar scale 416 00:23:30,316 --> 00:23:35,676 Speaker 1: sitting side by side that are now unrecognizably different prospects 417 00:23:35,676 --> 00:23:40,316 Speaker 1: and prosperity to actual cities that with actual downtowns and 418 00:23:41,076 --> 00:23:45,836 Speaker 1: similar full urban structures of relatively similar weight, much different 419 00:23:45,836 --> 00:23:47,956 Speaker 1: than the New York New York example, which yes, of 420 00:23:47,996 --> 00:23:50,996 Speaker 1: course that's always been a very very stark juxtaposition, but 421 00:23:51,076 --> 00:23:52,956 Speaker 1: it was very much also apple and Oranges, just in 422 00:23:53,036 --> 00:23:56,396 Speaker 1: terms of scale. But to have two cities that where 423 00:23:56,756 --> 00:23:59,436 Speaker 1: not so long ago one was even was actually larger 424 00:23:59,436 --> 00:24:02,116 Speaker 1: than the other. Despite the fact that Washington was that 425 00:24:02,516 --> 00:24:05,876 Speaker 1: was the national capital, Baltimore actually was in some ways 426 00:24:05,876 --> 00:24:08,436 Speaker 1: still more of a quote real city with actual much 427 00:24:08,516 --> 00:24:11,636 Speaker 1: larger population, more more sort of the more of the 428 00:24:11,636 --> 00:24:13,716 Speaker 1: trappings of a real city. You know, it was the 429 00:24:13,716 --> 00:24:15,236 Speaker 1: place you went to see baseball, and there was there 430 00:24:15,276 --> 00:24:18,556 Speaker 1: wasn't even baseball and Washington, DC. And so now to 431 00:24:18,676 --> 00:24:21,956 Speaker 1: have those two cities that had once been a relatively 432 00:24:21,956 --> 00:24:26,236 Speaker 1: similar scale now just be so unrecognizable different to the 433 00:24:26,236 --> 00:24:28,196 Speaker 1: point where I experience a kind of dizziness when I 434 00:24:28,236 --> 00:24:30,796 Speaker 1: go to Washington, DC, that the atmospheric pressure is so 435 00:24:30,876 --> 00:24:34,836 Speaker 1: different between the two cities. It's just it's mind boggling. 436 00:24:34,956 --> 00:24:37,796 Speaker 1: If you've spent you know, a day in DC or 437 00:24:37,796 --> 00:24:39,836 Speaker 1: you're just living there, and then you come take the 438 00:24:39,836 --> 00:24:42,596 Speaker 1: train after forty miles to Baltimore. It takes less than 439 00:24:42,636 --> 00:24:45,436 Speaker 1: an hour, and you get off a train and you're 440 00:24:45,476 --> 00:24:47,516 Speaker 1: in a city like you're It's not like you've just 441 00:24:47,796 --> 00:24:51,996 Speaker 1: come to some outlying neighborhood. You're in a coherent city 442 00:24:52,516 --> 00:24:56,036 Speaker 1: that's been around for a couple of centuries, and with 443 00:24:56,116 --> 00:24:59,316 Speaker 1: all that sort of design of a regular city and 444 00:24:59,516 --> 00:25:03,036 Speaker 1: feel of regular city, except that there are there's something 445 00:25:03,436 --> 00:25:06,516 Speaker 1: wildly different. There's just so much less energy, so many 446 00:25:06,516 --> 00:25:11,036 Speaker 1: fewer people, incredibly lesser wealth. You know, we're home to 447 00:25:11,516 --> 00:25:13,236 Speaker 1: the I keep, you know, in the book, I talk 448 00:25:13,276 --> 00:25:15,956 Speaker 1: a lot about the homes, but the fact that we are, 449 00:25:16,756 --> 00:25:20,236 Speaker 1: that you have one city where where that is experiencing 450 00:25:20,236 --> 00:25:25,316 Speaker 1: a massive affordability crisis, and where we're twenty by one 451 00:25:25,356 --> 00:25:28,596 Speaker 1: serious count, twenty thousand black people have been displaced just 452 00:25:28,836 --> 00:25:33,116 Speaker 1: less a dozen years or so, and where your average 453 00:25:33,196 --> 00:25:36,476 Speaker 1: rowhouse townhouse now costs you know, seven eight nine hundred 454 00:25:36,516 --> 00:25:39,556 Speaker 1: thousand dollars, if not more, and just up the road 455 00:25:39,716 --> 00:25:44,716 Speaker 1: you we are demolishing by the hundreds um rowhouses that 456 00:25:44,796 --> 00:25:48,276 Speaker 1: were in their day, you know, arguably even nicer than 457 00:25:48,316 --> 00:25:51,356 Speaker 1: the ones that were there. They are so expensive now 458 00:25:51,396 --> 00:25:54,276 Speaker 1: in DC. There's something deeply out of whack about that 459 00:25:54,516 --> 00:25:58,036 Speaker 1: and kind of kind of broken in a way that 460 00:25:58,116 --> 00:26:02,636 Speaker 1: I do think is new in its darkness. I don't 461 00:26:02,676 --> 00:26:05,156 Speaker 1: disagree with your description at all. I think it's you know, 462 00:26:05,196 --> 00:26:08,396 Speaker 1: it's cogent and accurate. Why isn't the takeaway here that 463 00:26:08,676 --> 00:26:11,316 Speaker 1: sort of DC saved itself from the fate of Baltimore. 464 00:26:11,596 --> 00:26:14,396 Speaker 1: I mean, when I read your book, I get a 465 00:26:14,476 --> 00:26:19,716 Speaker 1: sense of almost you know, astonishment that DC became a 466 00:26:19,716 --> 00:26:22,556 Speaker 1: city with industry, right that the old DC didn't really 467 00:26:22,596 --> 00:26:24,196 Speaker 1: have an industry. It had the government, but no one 468 00:26:24,236 --> 00:26:26,596 Speaker 1: was making much money in the government. And DC managed 469 00:26:26,716 --> 00:26:31,076 Speaker 1: to achieve a kind of much higher degree of economic 470 00:26:31,556 --> 00:26:35,156 Speaker 1: vitality in this period. As Baltimore essentially continued to decline. 471 00:26:35,156 --> 00:26:37,316 Speaker 1: It never fell off a cliff, but it continued to 472 00:26:37,316 --> 00:26:40,516 Speaker 1: decline in a pretty steady way. Other than the fact 473 00:26:40,596 --> 00:26:43,276 Speaker 1: of the disparity, which I don't dispute at all. Why 474 00:26:43,316 --> 00:26:45,796 Speaker 1: isn't that actually a happy story for DC, even if 475 00:26:45,796 --> 00:26:49,556 Speaker 1: it's an unhappy story for Baltimore, Because I think you're 476 00:26:49,636 --> 00:26:53,396 Speaker 1: undercounting the costs of the hyper prosperity. I think you're 477 00:26:53,436 --> 00:26:57,796 Speaker 1: undercounting the cost of displacement. I think undercounting the cost 478 00:26:57,916 --> 00:27:01,556 Speaker 1: of the unaffordability. What the book argue is that this 479 00:27:01,636 --> 00:27:04,556 Speaker 1: imbalance is not healthy for either kind of city to 480 00:27:04,636 --> 00:27:07,436 Speaker 1: hap things be this out of whack, That there actually 481 00:27:07,516 --> 00:27:10,076 Speaker 1: is such a thing as a happy middle and that week, 482 00:27:10,396 --> 00:27:13,356 Speaker 1: and that the happy middle has been lost in a 483 00:27:13,356 --> 00:27:16,076 Speaker 1: lot of these places, and that we'd be better off. 484 00:27:16,436 --> 00:27:19,316 Speaker 1: Both sorts of places would be better off if they're 485 00:27:19,396 --> 00:27:21,796 Speaker 1: a little bit closer to that medium, if there was 486 00:27:21,796 --> 00:27:24,556 Speaker 1: a greater balance across the board. This reminds me a 487 00:27:24,596 --> 00:27:25,996 Speaker 1: little bit of the argument you hear on the on 488 00:27:26,036 --> 00:27:28,076 Speaker 1: the flip side, which is you hear in places like 489 00:27:28,116 --> 00:27:31,876 Speaker 1: Baltimore where people people worry about, well, gosh, if we're 490 00:27:32,076 --> 00:27:34,276 Speaker 1: you know, if we're going to if we were to 491 00:27:34,276 --> 00:27:37,196 Speaker 1: get if the Amazon had set up shop here, or 492 00:27:37,236 --> 00:27:39,636 Speaker 1: if if you're if we're going to get this or 493 00:27:39,676 --> 00:27:42,756 Speaker 1: that company here, we're going to be we're going to 494 00:27:42,876 --> 00:27:47,116 Speaker 1: end up with, you know, wild gentrification and unaffordability and 495 00:27:47,156 --> 00:27:51,356 Speaker 1: all that. What that missus is scale if Baltimore, places 496 00:27:51,356 --> 00:27:54,956 Speaker 1: like Baltimore has so much, so much plight, now so 497 00:27:55,036 --> 00:27:58,316 Speaker 1: much capacity to spare one hundred populations that are hundreds 498 00:27:58,316 --> 00:28:02,036 Speaker 1: of thousands, blow there, blow their peak, that the situation 499 00:28:02,076 --> 00:28:04,516 Speaker 1: has gone so out of whack that that in fact, 500 00:28:04,876 --> 00:28:08,116 Speaker 1: you could have so much, so much growth and additional 501 00:28:08,196 --> 00:28:11,036 Speaker 1: vitality in a city like the Baltimore, Saint Louis or 502 00:28:11,036 --> 00:28:16,956 Speaker 1: Cleveland before before one's got anywhere close to a real problem. 503 00:28:17,076 --> 00:28:21,076 Speaker 1: And because that that's just how extremes the situation has gone. 504 00:28:21,396 --> 00:28:25,956 Speaker 1: The book argues or not argues, reports shows that that 505 00:28:26,036 --> 00:28:28,356 Speaker 1: what has happened in cities like DC and Seattle, it 506 00:28:28,356 --> 00:28:31,236 Speaker 1: comes with real costs, that the displacement, that the change 507 00:28:31,236 --> 00:28:35,556 Speaker 1: of character in these cities, that political poison has even 508 00:28:35,596 --> 00:28:39,076 Speaker 1: crept in. And I describe in Seattle around the whole 509 00:28:39,076 --> 00:28:42,116 Speaker 1: fight over raising taxes on Amazon to try to deal 510 00:28:42,156 --> 00:28:45,756 Speaker 1: with the house and homelessness problem. I think it's it 511 00:28:46,396 --> 00:28:50,996 Speaker 1: takes a certain level of um. One has to look 512 00:28:51,036 --> 00:28:53,676 Speaker 1: past a lot to believe that what's going on right 513 00:28:53,676 --> 00:28:56,236 Speaker 1: now in places like the Bay Area, in Seattle, in 514 00:28:56,396 --> 00:28:59,556 Speaker 1: New York and DC is all a happy story of 515 00:29:00,036 --> 00:29:04,276 Speaker 1: uplifting prosperity without any serious downsides. Again, I don't mean 516 00:29:04,316 --> 00:29:07,476 Speaker 1: to be saying that suddenly the presence of the very 517 00:29:07,556 --> 00:29:10,396 Speaker 1: rich is always good. Far far from it, just that 518 00:29:10,716 --> 00:29:13,116 Speaker 1: we don't necessarily have an obvious example in the US 519 00:29:13,236 --> 00:29:15,516 Speaker 1: of the happy middle that you're describing. Do you have 520 00:29:15,636 --> 00:29:18,036 Speaker 1: in mind, you know, here's a place where that happy 521 00:29:18,036 --> 00:29:19,836 Speaker 1: middle works, whether it's in the United States or in 522 00:29:19,836 --> 00:29:23,396 Speaker 1: another country. I do. I think there's some places that 523 00:29:23,476 --> 00:29:27,156 Speaker 1: are somewhat gets someone closer to the middle. I would 524 00:29:27,156 --> 00:29:30,196 Speaker 1: say that Philadelphia is somewhat closer to being in that range, 525 00:29:30,396 --> 00:29:33,756 Speaker 1: and obviously all sorts of problems still experiencing them right now, 526 00:29:34,076 --> 00:29:39,036 Speaker 1: horrific regression and violent crime. I would say that that Chicago, 527 00:29:39,196 --> 00:29:41,556 Speaker 1: to some degree have it something closer to the middle. 528 00:29:42,116 --> 00:29:44,876 Speaker 1: There are cities in the Midwest, in the interior of 529 00:29:44,916 --> 00:29:48,316 Speaker 1: the country that have become some of the few successful 530 00:29:48,396 --> 00:29:55,716 Speaker 1: kind of you know, deacons in Middle America, like a Columbus, 531 00:29:55,756 --> 00:30:00,556 Speaker 1: that are but are at risk now of becoming almost 532 00:30:00,556 --> 00:30:02,436 Speaker 1: their own kind of winter. Take all cities in their 533 00:30:02,436 --> 00:30:06,156 Speaker 1: regions where you're seeing enormous disparities kind of growing between 534 00:30:06,756 --> 00:30:09,356 Speaker 1: them and the smaller cities kind of around them in 535 00:30:09,396 --> 00:30:14,116 Speaker 1: their region, but that are still somewhat of a balance 536 00:30:14,196 --> 00:30:18,636 Speaker 1: of prosperity and accessibility right now. Gosh, maybe a Denver 537 00:30:18,836 --> 00:30:20,836 Speaker 1: like I think Denver, it strikes me as a place 538 00:30:20,836 --> 00:30:25,516 Speaker 1: that is managed to be successful without yet becoming a 539 00:30:25,596 --> 00:30:32,396 Speaker 1: completely suffering yet from from the worst effects of hyper prosperity. 540 00:30:32,676 --> 00:30:34,396 Speaker 1: But you really, you do have to, you have to 541 00:30:34,436 --> 00:30:37,116 Speaker 1: look for them. Most places I think of really tend 542 00:30:37,116 --> 00:30:41,516 Speaker 1: to to fall into one or the other. And again, 543 00:30:41,716 --> 00:30:44,876 Speaker 1: it's not that growth is bad. It's not. And I 544 00:30:44,916 --> 00:30:46,716 Speaker 1: guess that's why I get so frustrated when I hear 545 00:30:46,756 --> 00:30:49,556 Speaker 1: people in Baltimore warning about learning about the effects of 546 00:30:49,556 --> 00:30:51,556 Speaker 1: growth in a place that so desperately needs it and 547 00:30:51,596 --> 00:30:55,276 Speaker 1: that can so easily accommodate it. But it's all about scale, 548 00:30:55,476 --> 00:30:58,516 Speaker 1: and there's just there's no question that a place like 549 00:30:58,596 --> 00:31:01,396 Speaker 1: DC has is experiencing effects of a kind of hyper 550 00:31:01,436 --> 00:31:03,756 Speaker 1: prosperity that is going to get even more extreme now 551 00:31:03,796 --> 00:31:07,956 Speaker 1: that you've got twenty five thousand more of these these 552 00:31:07,956 --> 00:31:09,436 Speaker 1: well paying jobs that are going to be coming in 553 00:31:09,596 --> 00:31:13,276 Speaker 1: in the coming years, just billions more invested across the 554 00:31:13,356 --> 00:31:18,756 Speaker 1: river there in Crystal City, and and and that there 555 00:31:18,796 --> 00:31:22,596 Speaker 1: would have been it would have probably been better for 556 00:31:22,716 --> 00:31:25,716 Speaker 1: both sorts of places if that kind of investment had 557 00:31:25,756 --> 00:31:29,556 Speaker 1: had ended up elsewhere. But that's as Amazon sees it, 558 00:31:29,596 --> 00:31:33,356 Speaker 1: that's not how things work. Your book does a really 559 00:31:33,396 --> 00:31:39,796 Speaker 1: extraordinary job of telling the story of bipolar distributions of 560 00:31:39,836 --> 00:31:44,956 Speaker 1: wealth and of opportunity. What do you see as your 561 00:31:45,036 --> 00:31:48,516 Speaker 1: intended audience, because you could imagine it being sort of 562 00:31:48,556 --> 00:31:51,796 Speaker 1: like in the Upton Sinclair tradition, you know, of his 563 00:31:51,876 --> 00:31:54,836 Speaker 1: description of the horror of meat packing plants. You know, 564 00:31:54,836 --> 00:31:57,876 Speaker 1: when he was writing, Sinclair famously said that he was 565 00:31:58,036 --> 00:31:59,956 Speaker 1: he was actually trying to turn people into socialists, but 566 00:31:59,996 --> 00:32:02,596 Speaker 1: instead what he got was food, you know, processing reform. 567 00:32:03,276 --> 00:32:05,876 Speaker 1: But that is a kind of book which was clearly 568 00:32:05,876 --> 00:32:08,076 Speaker 1: intended to make people sit up and take notice and 569 00:32:08,276 --> 00:32:11,476 Speaker 1: do something different as a consequence. And there's another kind 570 00:32:11,476 --> 00:32:14,036 Speaker 1: of reporting that I think is trying to capture the psychegeist, 571 00:32:14,076 --> 00:32:15,876 Speaker 1: you know, say, where we are as a country right now, 572 00:32:15,916 --> 00:32:17,876 Speaker 1: so that when astarians look back, or when we look 573 00:32:17,916 --> 00:32:19,476 Speaker 1: at ourselves in the mirror, we get some sense of 574 00:32:20,196 --> 00:32:23,036 Speaker 1: who we are as a country. If those are sort 575 00:32:23,076 --> 00:32:25,996 Speaker 1: of two poles, you know, the book that's designed reportage 576 00:32:26,036 --> 00:32:28,836 Speaker 1: to draw people's attention to an ill and seek to 577 00:32:28,876 --> 00:32:31,916 Speaker 1: fix it. And a work which could be a work 578 00:32:31,916 --> 00:32:34,356 Speaker 1: of literature effiction or non infiction, that's designed really to 579 00:32:34,956 --> 00:32:38,516 Speaker 1: explain the world to us. Where on that continuum, if 580 00:32:38,556 --> 00:32:40,276 Speaker 1: that is a fair continuum, do you see your own 581 00:32:40,316 --> 00:32:44,236 Speaker 1: book falling. That's a very well described spectrum. And I 582 00:32:44,236 --> 00:32:46,236 Speaker 1: would say somewhere in the middle, to the extent that 583 00:32:46,276 --> 00:32:51,876 Speaker 1: the book seeks some kind of a sinclear like policy correction, 584 00:32:51,916 --> 00:32:57,956 Speaker 1: policy reform, policy answer, you know, implicitly, you know, suggests 585 00:32:57,996 --> 00:33:00,316 Speaker 1: that one way to deal with this regional concentration of 586 00:33:00,356 --> 00:33:04,596 Speaker 1: wealth is to deal with the economic concentration of so 587 00:33:04,636 --> 00:33:07,676 Speaker 1: many sectors of the economy in certain companies, and that 588 00:33:07,756 --> 00:33:10,596 Speaker 1: the book makes an implicit case for an antitrust, for 589 00:33:11,716 --> 00:33:14,996 Speaker 1: a new approach to antitrust, basically by bringing to bear 590 00:33:15,116 --> 00:33:18,436 Speaker 1: the regional element to it, showing that this economic concentration 591 00:33:18,436 --> 00:33:22,436 Speaker 1: that we're now experiencing not only distorts markets in ways 592 00:33:22,636 --> 00:33:25,516 Speaker 1: that are not healthy and that the economists and the 593 00:33:25,836 --> 00:33:28,556 Speaker 1: sharp any trust legal minds are now explaining to us, 594 00:33:28,596 --> 00:33:31,356 Speaker 1: but also has a regional effect and contributes to our 595 00:33:31,356 --> 00:33:35,156 Speaker 1: regional disparities that have been so kind of unhealthy for 596 00:33:35,236 --> 00:33:37,956 Speaker 1: a country and our politics. So it points when in 597 00:33:37,956 --> 00:33:41,116 Speaker 1: that direction in a servemplicit way, But then it also 598 00:33:41,236 --> 00:33:43,956 Speaker 1: definitely was meant to sort of describe who we've become 599 00:33:44,396 --> 00:33:47,756 Speaker 1: as a country, and definitely to have some kind of 600 00:33:47,756 --> 00:33:51,956 Speaker 1: an effect on the general consciousness of what I used 601 00:33:51,956 --> 00:33:57,236 Speaker 1: to I would describe as your average center left, middle 602 00:33:57,316 --> 00:34:04,836 Speaker 1: upper middle class liberal consumer who probably uses Amazon quite 603 00:34:04,836 --> 00:34:08,396 Speaker 1: a lot, has used it even more this past year 604 00:34:08,516 --> 00:34:11,836 Speaker 1: during the pandemic, and probably has not thought all that much, 605 00:34:11,956 --> 00:34:14,876 Speaker 1: you know, about what lies behind the one click. To 606 00:34:14,996 --> 00:34:19,916 Speaker 1: not only get that reader to think more about what 607 00:34:19,996 --> 00:34:22,716 Speaker 1: lies behind the one click in terms of the warehouses 608 00:34:22,876 --> 00:34:27,036 Speaker 1: and the drivers and the cardboard makers that supply chain 609 00:34:27,116 --> 00:34:29,596 Speaker 1: that's that's bringing the box to them, but just to 610 00:34:29,636 --> 00:34:31,956 Speaker 1: get them to think more generally about the country as 611 00:34:31,956 --> 00:34:34,316 Speaker 1: a whole. I have a lot of my reporting the 612 00:34:34,396 --> 00:34:37,196 Speaker 1: last few years has been has been an attempt to 613 00:34:37,236 --> 00:34:40,996 Speaker 1: kind of bridge these disparate worlds that you know, have 614 00:34:41,116 --> 00:34:45,596 Speaker 1: gotten so starkly removed from each other. And I traveled 615 00:34:45,636 --> 00:34:49,396 Speaker 1: between them a lot, and I like to kind of 616 00:34:49,396 --> 00:34:51,836 Speaker 1: bring news of one to the other and and I 617 00:34:51,876 --> 00:34:56,076 Speaker 1: do believe that that that there's a real basic purpose 618 00:34:56,076 --> 00:34:59,756 Speaker 1: served in building empathy or the potential for empathy. And 619 00:35:00,316 --> 00:35:03,556 Speaker 1: I'll say that I have I felt this purpose all 620 00:35:03,596 --> 00:35:06,116 Speaker 1: the more strongly this past year because I have been 621 00:35:06,476 --> 00:35:10,476 Speaker 1: astonished by the the alacrity with which a lot of 622 00:35:10,716 --> 00:35:17,276 Speaker 1: people did embrace the one click life during the past year. 623 00:35:17,756 --> 00:35:21,756 Speaker 1: That's sort of hunkering down um and sealing ourselves off, 624 00:35:21,796 --> 00:35:25,956 Speaker 1: which was of course at the behest of the recommendation 625 00:35:25,996 --> 00:35:29,956 Speaker 1: of our public health authorities. But there was a wholesale 626 00:35:30,036 --> 00:35:33,036 Speaker 1: nature of the embrace, the alacrity of the embrace, and 627 00:35:33,196 --> 00:35:36,116 Speaker 1: the extent to which we may not be willing to 628 00:35:36,396 --> 00:35:41,476 Speaker 1: really to to move on from it now, even as 629 00:35:41,676 --> 00:35:44,716 Speaker 1: as conditions gradually improve. One hope of the book is 630 00:35:44,756 --> 00:35:47,956 Speaker 1: that it will help to to get us to re 631 00:35:48,076 --> 00:35:51,156 Speaker 1: engage somewhat in the physical world around us and the 632 00:35:51,796 --> 00:35:54,556 Speaker 1: world of our of the places we live, our communities, 633 00:35:55,076 --> 00:35:57,516 Speaker 1: not just you know, not just in terms of using 634 00:35:58,436 --> 00:36:01,436 Speaker 1: local businesses, returning to the physical world around us in 635 00:36:01,516 --> 00:36:04,356 Speaker 1: all of its forms, whether it's you know, a theater 636 00:36:04,636 --> 00:36:07,316 Speaker 1: or you know, just getting out of getting back out 637 00:36:07,316 --> 00:36:11,996 Speaker 1: of our homes and into physical world, showing the sort 638 00:36:11,996 --> 00:36:15,556 Speaker 1: of the cost of going full digital, of going full 639 00:36:15,596 --> 00:36:22,076 Speaker 1: one click, of isolating ourselves and becoming people who please 640 00:36:22,676 --> 00:36:29,356 Speaker 1: sit the computer and seagull our fulfillment online and then 641 00:36:29,396 --> 00:36:32,476 Speaker 1: get our wishes delivered in the box on that lands 642 00:36:32,516 --> 00:36:36,596 Speaker 1: on the porch of the stew I mean, I'm squarely 643 00:36:36,636 --> 00:36:38,716 Speaker 1: in that target audience, I will say. I mean I 644 00:36:38,796 --> 00:36:40,796 Speaker 1: was somebody who you know, it's not that I never 645 00:36:40,876 --> 00:36:43,356 Speaker 1: used Amazon before, but I made a point of always 646 00:36:43,356 --> 00:36:45,716 Speaker 1: shopping at my local bookshop and shopping at my local 647 00:36:45,756 --> 00:36:48,316 Speaker 1: grocery store and not even the big box, you know. 648 00:36:48,396 --> 00:36:51,916 Speaker 1: And and then you know, COVID simply had the effect of, 649 00:36:52,636 --> 00:36:55,396 Speaker 1: you know, making us change the calculus. I mean, these 650 00:36:55,476 --> 00:37:00,276 Speaker 1: moment to moment decisions have I think defaulted us somewhat rationally, 651 00:37:00,316 --> 00:37:03,636 Speaker 1: as you say, to the convenience structure of Amazon. So 652 00:37:03,716 --> 00:37:06,596 Speaker 1: you know, I share profoundly your wish for us to 653 00:37:06,636 --> 00:37:09,556 Speaker 1: re engage with the world, but I also under you know, 654 00:37:09,596 --> 00:37:11,316 Speaker 1: what this last year would have been like if there 655 00:37:11,356 --> 00:37:15,236 Speaker 1: hadn't been that default option. I mean, yes, there are 656 00:37:15,236 --> 00:37:17,836 Speaker 1: things we didn't absolutely need. You know, I know lots 657 00:37:17,836 --> 00:37:19,476 Speaker 1: of people who grew beard. You know, we don't need 658 00:37:19,516 --> 00:37:21,996 Speaker 1: to you know, we don't need to buy daving cream, 659 00:37:22,036 --> 00:37:24,996 Speaker 1: and you know, maybe it would. It's perfectly reasonable to 660 00:37:24,996 --> 00:37:26,876 Speaker 1: wait weeks or months for a book to come rather 661 00:37:26,916 --> 00:37:29,596 Speaker 1: than to have the book come quickly. So it's not 662 00:37:29,596 --> 00:37:32,356 Speaker 1: that I'm claiming that these consumer creature comforts are somehow 663 00:37:32,476 --> 00:37:36,116 Speaker 1: my inborn right there aren't. They're not anybody's. But I 664 00:37:36,156 --> 00:37:41,156 Speaker 1: do think that in a way Amazon has entered into 665 00:37:41,156 --> 00:37:45,876 Speaker 1: our consciousnesses in the last year, in a way that is, 666 00:37:46,076 --> 00:37:50,676 Speaker 1: as you say, genuinely transformative. And I guess my last 667 00:37:50,756 --> 00:37:53,876 Speaker 1: question for you is what is the route back? I mean, 668 00:37:53,956 --> 00:37:56,516 Speaker 1: raising people's consciousness is good, and I definitely had the 669 00:37:56,516 --> 00:37:58,876 Speaker 1: experience in reading your book of thinking listen, don't just order, 670 00:37:59,196 --> 00:38:02,356 Speaker 1: think about the supply chain engage. And I have been 671 00:38:02,396 --> 00:38:04,956 Speaker 1: thinking about that since I read the book. But I 672 00:38:04,996 --> 00:38:08,036 Speaker 1: also have to admit to myself that I still haven't stopped, 673 00:38:08,036 --> 00:38:11,476 Speaker 1: as a consequence, from clicking the button rather than going 674 00:38:11,476 --> 00:38:13,076 Speaker 1: to the to the brick and mortar store, at least 675 00:38:13,076 --> 00:38:16,036 Speaker 1: at this stage in the pandemic. So how do you 676 00:38:16,076 --> 00:38:19,276 Speaker 1: think about that transformation of action in relationship to the 677 00:38:19,636 --> 00:38:22,796 Speaker 1: change in consciousness. Well, I would hope that that as 678 00:38:23,516 --> 00:38:25,716 Speaker 1: more time goes on and as conditions further improved that 679 00:38:25,916 --> 00:38:28,476 Speaker 1: someone like you would be more likely to actually get 680 00:38:28,556 --> 00:38:31,156 Speaker 1: back out of the house and to think harder about it. 681 00:38:31,196 --> 00:38:33,236 Speaker 1: I do, like I said before, I do believe that 682 00:38:33,316 --> 00:38:35,876 Speaker 1: we all have agency, and I'm not I'm not absolutist 683 00:38:35,916 --> 00:38:37,996 Speaker 1: about this. I using Amazon when I have to sort 684 00:38:37,996 --> 00:38:40,916 Speaker 1: of a last resort thing. But it's all about moderation. 685 00:38:41,116 --> 00:38:44,036 Speaker 1: It's all about again, it's about scale. It's not all 686 00:38:44,076 --> 00:38:47,796 Speaker 1: all or nothing. It's it's the degree to which to 687 00:38:47,876 --> 00:38:50,836 Speaker 1: which we do things. There's there's it's a spectrum and 688 00:38:50,876 --> 00:38:52,796 Speaker 1: to the point about how things would have been without 689 00:38:52,836 --> 00:38:57,916 Speaker 1: them without What that supposes, I think is that things 690 00:38:58,036 --> 00:39:00,596 Speaker 1: might have been actually, you know, somehow vastly worse if 691 00:39:00,636 --> 00:39:02,516 Speaker 1: we had to go out out of the house to 692 00:39:02,876 --> 00:39:05,796 Speaker 1: fill our basic needs. I think what that also overlooks 693 00:39:05,876 --> 00:39:09,796 Speaker 1: is the fact that while we were doing this, living 694 00:39:09,796 --> 00:39:11,396 Speaker 1: in this way, we were of course relying and you 695 00:39:11,476 --> 00:39:12,956 Speaker 1: were you were relying on a whole lot of people 696 00:39:12,956 --> 00:39:14,516 Speaker 1: who did not have the benefit that you did of 697 00:39:14,956 --> 00:39:18,156 Speaker 1: staying home and ordering your shaving cream in. There were 698 00:39:18,156 --> 00:39:20,476 Speaker 1: people who there were people who are bringing that to you, yes, 699 00:39:20,716 --> 00:39:24,076 Speaker 1: and this book is about those people, but it's mostly 700 00:39:24,116 --> 00:39:26,116 Speaker 1: directed at the people who were who were ordering a 701 00:39:26,196 --> 00:39:28,756 Speaker 1: shaving cream, and it's and it's sort of showing you 702 00:39:28,836 --> 00:39:31,436 Speaker 1: the whole world of all those people who all along 703 00:39:32,236 --> 00:39:35,236 Speaker 1: we're in the warehouses, whether the person nexts them in 704 00:39:35,396 --> 00:39:40,076 Speaker 1: COVID and so this, yes, this book is about what 705 00:39:40,116 --> 00:39:43,316 Speaker 1: was happening this past year, well all of us were 706 00:39:43,716 --> 00:39:47,916 Speaker 1: ordering our shaving cream online. Thank you for the thoughtful 707 00:39:47,956 --> 00:39:50,916 Speaker 1: conversation and for the extremely thought provoking a book and 708 00:39:51,116 --> 00:39:54,556 Speaker 1: very beautifully written and engaging. Thank you so much. Thank you. 709 00:40:01,476 --> 00:40:05,556 Speaker 1: Reading Fulfillment and listening to Alec McGillis was a rich 710 00:40:05,796 --> 00:40:11,356 Speaker 1: and a fascinating experience that affected me both emotionally and intellectually. 711 00:40:12,596 --> 00:40:14,756 Speaker 1: I will just tell you you couldn't read a book 712 00:40:14,796 --> 00:40:17,996 Speaker 1: like this and have a heart and not be affected 713 00:40:17,996 --> 00:40:21,516 Speaker 1: by the powerful stories of individuals who take a job 714 00:40:21,596 --> 00:40:24,076 Speaker 1: in an Amazon warehouse because it's the only job that's 715 00:40:24,076 --> 00:40:27,116 Speaker 1: available to them and in some cases even seem to 716 00:40:27,156 --> 00:40:29,436 Speaker 1: cross the boundary of what we would like to think 717 00:40:29,476 --> 00:40:34,196 Speaker 1: of as just working conditions in a country like the 718 00:40:34,276 --> 00:40:37,156 Speaker 1: United States that is, on the whole, a well off 719 00:40:37,196 --> 00:40:40,316 Speaker 1: country in the world. To read these stories is therefore 720 00:40:40,636 --> 00:40:44,396 Speaker 1: to appreciate the tremendous good fortune of those of us 721 00:40:44,436 --> 00:40:47,436 Speaker 1: who are able to click the Amazon button to order 722 00:40:47,516 --> 00:40:50,716 Speaker 1: products rather than to have to do the heavy lifting 723 00:40:51,076 --> 00:40:54,076 Speaker 1: literally in many cases, of getting those products out of 724 00:40:54,116 --> 00:40:58,996 Speaker 1: their warehouses and to us as the people who are consumers. 725 00:40:59,636 --> 00:41:03,276 Speaker 1: At the same time, the book emphasizes the tremendous wealth 726 00:41:03,316 --> 00:41:07,996 Speaker 1: gap that has emerged regionally and between different cities, and 727 00:41:08,116 --> 00:41:11,236 Speaker 1: that in turn raises a problem that is more than emotional, 728 00:41:11,316 --> 00:41:14,236 Speaker 1: that is also intellectual, and a question about how power 729 00:41:14,316 --> 00:41:17,596 Speaker 1: should be distributed in our society. The book and the 730 00:41:17,636 --> 00:41:20,956 Speaker 1: conversation made me think more seriously than I had before 731 00:41:20,996 --> 00:41:24,396 Speaker 1: about the question of whether it's okay or not that 732 00:41:24,556 --> 00:41:28,036 Speaker 1: some places are getting very, very rich as other places 733 00:41:28,196 --> 00:41:31,356 Speaker 1: are getting very poor. Notice that that's a slightly different 734 00:41:31,396 --> 00:41:35,756 Speaker 1: question than wealth disparities between individuals. When it comes to 735 00:41:35,796 --> 00:41:40,196 Speaker 1: wealth disparities between places, we're talking about whole ecosystems that 736 00:41:40,236 --> 00:41:44,476 Speaker 1: manage to rise through the advantages of attracting people who 737 00:41:44,516 --> 00:41:47,156 Speaker 1: can earn a lot of money, and that create with 738 00:41:47,316 --> 00:41:51,716 Speaker 1: that rise, real forms of displacement and challenge for people 739 00:41:51,716 --> 00:41:54,796 Speaker 1: who have traditionally lived in those communities. Meanwhile, there are 740 00:41:54,796 --> 00:41:59,676 Speaker 1: other communities that fail to benefit from the newly emerging economy, 741 00:41:59,916 --> 00:42:04,676 Speaker 1: and those places end up getting poorer. Should we be 742 00:42:04,796 --> 00:42:07,876 Speaker 1: designing our country, Should we be designing our political institutions 743 00:42:08,156 --> 00:42:12,036 Speaker 1: in such a way as to enhance the equality between 744 00:42:12,116 --> 00:42:17,716 Speaker 1: geographical areas. This is a very challenging policy question, one 745 00:42:17,836 --> 00:42:20,356 Speaker 1: which I do not purport to be able to answer myself, 746 00:42:20,636 --> 00:42:24,196 Speaker 1: and one that, to be fair, Alec McGillis himself does 747 00:42:24,236 --> 00:42:27,516 Speaker 1: not fully take on in fulfillment. He wants us to 748 00:42:27,556 --> 00:42:30,276 Speaker 1: ask that question and to feel that question, and he 749 00:42:30,316 --> 00:42:32,316 Speaker 1: has an implicit answer, which is that we ought to 750 00:42:32,356 --> 00:42:35,836 Speaker 1: do things differently without giving us a detailed analysis of 751 00:42:35,876 --> 00:42:41,956 Speaker 1: what we actually should be doing differently. And that's certainly fine. 752 00:42:42,276 --> 00:42:44,356 Speaker 1: It's a lot to ask of any book that it 753 00:42:44,476 --> 00:42:46,796 Speaker 1: both tell the story of our times and tell us 754 00:42:46,796 --> 00:42:50,116 Speaker 1: what we ought to be doing differently. In the conversation 755 00:42:50,156 --> 00:42:52,156 Speaker 1: that we had, Alec made the point that there were 756 00:42:52,236 --> 00:42:55,836 Speaker 1: individual decisions at the level of agency of the corporation 757 00:42:56,036 --> 00:42:58,596 Speaker 1: that Amazon might have done that might have spread the 758 00:42:58,596 --> 00:43:01,556 Speaker 1: well to a greater degree. But even had Amazon taken 759 00:43:01,596 --> 00:43:05,356 Speaker 1: those decisions, there's no question that one company alone could 760 00:43:05,396 --> 00:43:10,036 Speaker 1: not have reversed the very substantial differences in distribution that 761 00:43:10,156 --> 00:43:14,916 Speaker 1: exists geographically in the country. With respect to wealth. Power 762 00:43:14,956 --> 00:43:18,276 Speaker 1: to make decisions like that comes from a wide range 763 00:43:18,436 --> 00:43:22,116 Speaker 1: of different factors. It includes the incentives that local governments 764 00:43:22,116 --> 00:43:25,876 Speaker 1: are prepared to provide. It includes the path dependent developments 765 00:43:26,036 --> 00:43:28,796 Speaker 1: of different regions based on the educational institutions they have, 766 00:43:29,276 --> 00:43:31,636 Speaker 1: based on who ends up living there. And it has 767 00:43:31,636 --> 00:43:34,516 Speaker 1: to do as well with the very complex policy decisions 768 00:43:34,556 --> 00:43:38,276 Speaker 1: governing real estate, infrastructure, and indeed the history of the 769 00:43:38,316 --> 00:43:43,116 Speaker 1: United States going back centuries. I hope you'll read Fulfillment, 770 00:43:43,476 --> 00:43:46,436 Speaker 1: not because it has all the answers, but because it 771 00:43:46,516 --> 00:43:50,396 Speaker 1: deepens the questions that we ought to be asking around 772 00:43:50,556 --> 00:43:54,356 Speaker 1: the distribution of power by geography and wealth in the 773 00:43:54,436 --> 00:43:58,996 Speaker 1: United States today. Until the next time I speak to you, 774 00:43:59,436 --> 00:44:04,196 Speaker 1: be careful, be safe, and be well. Deep background is 775 00:44:04,236 --> 00:44:08,076 Speaker 1: brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Mo Laboard, 776 00:44:08,436 --> 00:44:11,436 Speaker 1: our engineer is Martin Gonzalez, and our shore runner is 777 00:44:11,476 --> 00:44:16,196 Speaker 1: Sophie Crane mckibbon. Editorial support from noahm Osband. Theme music 778 00:44:16,236 --> 00:44:20,836 Speaker 1: by Luis Skerra at Pushkin. Thanks to Mia Lobell, Julia Barton, Lydia, 779 00:44:20,876 --> 00:44:25,476 Speaker 1: Jean Coott, Heather Fain, Carl mcliori, Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, 780 00:44:25,556 --> 00:44:28,236 Speaker 1: and Jacob Weisberg. You can find me on Twitter at 781 00:44:28,236 --> 00:44:31,636 Speaker 1: Noah R. Feldman. I also write a column for Bloomberg Opinion, 782 00:44:31,756 --> 00:44:34,836 Speaker 1: which you can find at bloomberg dot com slash Feldman. 783 00:44:35,316 --> 00:44:38,676 Speaker 1: To discover Bloomberg's original slate of podcasts, go to Bloomberg 784 00:44:38,716 --> 00:44:41,476 Speaker 1: dot com slash podcasts, and if you liked what you 785 00:44:41,556 --> 00:44:44,276 Speaker 1: heard today, please write a review or tell a French. 786 00:44:44,676 --> 00:44:46,116 Speaker 1: This is deep background