Speaker 1: Good morning, Peepsen. Welcome to wok F Daily with me
Speaker 1: your girl Danielle Moody recording from the Home Bunker. Folks,
Speaker 1: I'm really excited about the conversation coming up next with
Speaker 1: author Greg Garrett, who has the book The Gospel according
Speaker 1: to James Baldwin, which is out now. And you know,
Speaker 1: Greg Garrett is a straight white man whose own life
Speaker 1: has been profoundly shaped by Baldwin's work. And in this book,
Speaker 1: you know, he talks about Baldwin's life as it has
Speaker 1: also affected his own. And I think that you know,
Speaker 1: for all of you who've been listening to me for
Speaker 1: quite some time, you know that James Baldwin is so
Speaker 1: moody that I hold in high high regard. And if
Speaker 1: you ever watch me on TV, his picture is hanging
Speaker 1: up behind me in my living room because I think
Speaker 1: that he is one of the was one of the
Speaker 1: most profound, prolific writers of the twentieth century. And Greg
Speaker 1: and I get into a really great conversation about, you know,
Speaker 1: Baldwin and why him as a straight white man, you know,
Speaker 1: he found the need to want to write about him,
Speaker 1: and I talk about my experience as a you know,
Speaker 1: a queer black woman and entering into politics and also
Speaker 1: wanting to have a reflective tone when thinking about the
Speaker 1: times that we are living in. And so it was
Speaker 1: just a really inspiring conversation and I hope that you
Speaker 1: all enjoy it, folks. I am. I'm very excited to
Speaker 1: welcome to ok F Daily for the very first time,
Speaker 1: Greg Garrett, who I'm excited to bring on uh to
Speaker 1: talk about one of my favorite one of my favorite
Speaker 1: writers and authors and just people the Gospel, has written
Speaker 1: the book The Gospel according to James Baldwin. And for
Speaker 1: those of you who listen UH to my show, you
Speaker 1: know that I talk about James Baldwin. I quote James
Speaker 1: Baldwin because I think that he was one of the
Speaker 1: most thoughtful patron saints of democracy of America that I
Speaker 1: had ever seen. So Greg tell us, you know, obviously,
Speaker 1: you know, for me, James Baldwin a black queer man,
Speaker 1: I am a black queer woman who also, you know,
Speaker 1: because of him, has felt the ability to critique America.
Speaker 1: Yeah right. He gave those of us who believe in
Speaker 1: the ideals of America the opportunity to say, no, no,
Speaker 1: I critique this country because I love it. Because I
Speaker 1: would like for it to live up to it's it's
Speaker 1: its ideals and its vision, and it fails us time
Speaker 1: and time again, and it's heartbreaking. So talk to us
Speaker 1: about why Baldwin for you as a as a straight
Speaker 1: white man, why you know, why why why Baldwin for you?
Speaker 2: Well, and first, you know, Danielle, let me acknowledge. First,
Speaker 2: I'm so glad to be here talking with you about
Speaker 2: this figure who we love so much. Second, it is
Speaker 2: so important, and it was so important to Baldwin's original audiences.
Speaker 2: You know that he was a black man, that he
Speaker 2: was a queer man, that he was a p person
Speaker 2: who they could look at and see themselves represented in
Speaker 2: some really important ways. And and representation is essential. It's
Speaker 2: one of the things that I think a lot about
Speaker 2: when I do cultural criticism and cultural theology. When you
Speaker 2: when you look at the screen or at the stage
Speaker 2: and you don't see yourself represented, it's it's almost like
Speaker 2: you don't exist. And so Baldwin. Baldwin was an essential
Speaker 2: figure for all of that. But this book actually grows
Speaker 2: out of a second thing, which is, without denying in
Speaker 2: any way his essential identities, the recognition that great writers,
Speaker 2: great artists, great feemakers do this thing which is separate
Speaker 2: from their lived identities. And so I talk early in
Speaker 2: the book about mister Faulkner, the you know, the great
Speaker 2: Nobel Prize winning novelist, and and mister Baldwin and I
Speaker 2: both had our issues with him. M Faulkner, like many writers,
Speaker 2: was so much better on the page than he was
Speaker 2: as a human being. But mister Faulkner talked about how
Speaker 2: great artists speak out of their postage stamp of land,
Speaker 2: that that loved identity, right. So, like, you know, I
Speaker 2: was born in Oklahoma, I grew up in Georgia, North Carolina.
Speaker 2: You know, I experienced racism in the schools that I
Speaker 2: went to as a kid, and and those things shape
Speaker 2: who I am as a fiction writer. As a nonfiction
Speaker 2: writer is at theologian. But if I'm doing my job
Speaker 2: in the same way that mister Baldwin did his job,
Speaker 2: then then my identity as a straight white male, middle
Speaker 2: class Christian is not the limitation of who I'm able
Speaker 2: to talk to. And what Baldwin does in his work
Speaker 2: is you're well aware, is he reaches out to every
Speaker 2: every part of the human family. Yeah, and he recognizes
Speaker 2: the essential humanity of every one of us. And you know,
Speaker 2: one of the reasons that I started the book with
Speaker 2: a chapter on Baldwin's theories about art and with Baldwin's
Speaker 2: literary criticism is that, you know, as important as he
Speaker 2: thought it was to advance the cause and to work
Speaker 2: towards justice and equity, he said that art that only
Speaker 2: did that, art that didn't create a fully rounded picture
Speaker 2: of its human beings was a failure. And so that's
Speaker 2: what I admire about him as a fiction writer, it's
Speaker 2: what I admire about him as a critic and theologian,
Speaker 2: and I do think of him as a theologian, and
Speaker 2: it's what I admire about his activism and his advocacy,
Speaker 2: because at the end of the day, he understood that
Speaker 2: we are so much more alike than we are different.
Speaker 2: And even though at the beginning of the book I
Speaker 2: talk about the Venn diagrams that he and I inhabit,
Speaker 2: and there's only the tiniest bit of space, you know,
Speaker 2: once you narrow down all those curs where theoretically James
Speaker 2: Baldwin and I operate on the same you know, same plane.
Speaker 2: And yet it was very clear to him that he
Speaker 2: and I are so much more like than we are different,
Speaker 2: and that love is going to triumph in the end,
Speaker 2: and the things that we think that separate us are
Speaker 2: going to fall away. And I, you know, I can't
Speaker 2: get about a bed in the morning if I don't
Speaker 2: believe that in my heart of.
Speaker 1: Hearts, you know, and and and that is so true
Speaker 1: right and reticent to the moment that we are living in.
Speaker 1: You know, there are some people who their work, their
Speaker 1: speech don't carry the test of time. Right that you can,
Speaker 1: you can you can look at them and say, ah,
Speaker 1: well that you know that made sense for the moment.
Speaker 1: I think that what makes Baldwin such an immense figure
Speaker 1: and remaining such an immense figure, is that he really
Speaker 1: was not looking just at the conditions of the time
Speaker 1: that he was living in, but looking at the human
Speaker 1: condition and as as as a bigger piece of it all.
Speaker 1: I think one of the things that he had said
Speaker 1: when speaking about kind of when speaking about whiteness, right,
Speaker 1: and this idea that black and white people are created
Speaker 1: and looked at differently, and really looking at it through
Speaker 1: the lens of media, is that black people have always
Speaker 1: had to look at white people. Right. Everything is about
Speaker 1: is about what is mainstream, what is normal is always
Speaker 1: measured against what is white. Right, And he had said
Speaker 1: that white people never have to look at us, right,
Speaker 1: they never have to understand us as complete and total
Speaker 1: human beings, which is what makes it easier right to dehumanize, right.
Speaker 1: And so I asked this question to you, which is
Speaker 1: as we're living inside of this moment, but you're also
Speaker 1: in this very reflective space having written this book right
Speaker 1: about the complexity and the layered person that is James Baldwin.
Speaker 1: You know, how do you see what he stated about
Speaker 1: the human condition? How do you see that as continuing
Speaker 1: to be true? And if there are any solutions that
Speaker 1: we have experienced, even for a brief time, that he
Speaker 1: had offered up in his lifetime.
Speaker 2: I'm so glad that you just asked that, Daniel. I
Speaker 2: am just back from a weekend in Washington, d C.
Speaker 2: Where I was at the National Cathedral. And I don't
Speaker 2: know if this has crossed your radar, but a few
Speaker 2: years ago the National Cathedral decided to remove these windows
Speaker 2: from the nave, the worship space, that were done by
Speaker 2: the Daughters of the Confederacy, And I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: heads explode just at that sentence. So these windows were
Speaker 2: donated in nineteen fifty two, nineteen fifty three, you know,
Speaker 2: right in the middle of the civil rights movement, and
Speaker 2: it's you know, it's a very active and you know
Speaker 2: and ticket antagonistic act of the Daughters of the Confederacy
Speaker 2: to say we want to put these you know, these
Speaker 2: Confederate saints in the space of the Nation's Church. And
Speaker 2: so after Mother Emmanuel, the dean of the cathedral said
Speaker 2: we we can't continue to house these windows. And so
Speaker 2: this weekend the windows had been taken out a couple
Speaker 2: of years ago, but a new set of windows were
Speaker 2: dedicated and a worship service and celebration came along with that.
Speaker 2: Henry Lewis Gates did the reading from the Book of Romans,
Speaker 2: Justice Katanji Brown Jackson Jackson from the Letter from Birmingham Jail.
Speaker 2: And I mean like there are a thousand of us
Speaker 2: there in the cathedral celebrating these new windows, which are
Speaker 2: a new vision, a new voice that has been denied
Speaker 2: in the Nation's Church since its founding. One of the
Speaker 2: most important parts of the work that I do in
Speaker 2: this book on Baldwin is a part of what I do.
Speaker 2: I go out and talk to people who look like me, yeah,
Speaker 2: about race, And you don't have those victories every day.
Speaker 2: And I hear that in your question. But there are
Speaker 2: moments of hope, and there are moments of movement when,
Speaker 2: as Baldwin asked us to do, we face up to
Speaker 2: our history and acknowledge it and tell the truth about it,
Speaker 2: And when people who look like me not only acknowledge it,
Speaker 2: but repent of it and apologize for it and say
Speaker 2: what can we do to make some small movement forward?
Speaker 2: And so I've seen that in some of the spaces
Speaker 2: that I've been a part of over the last couple
Speaker 2: of years. And I saw it this last weekend, and
Speaker 2: I mean it was a celebration of a victory for
Speaker 2: inclusion and for conversation and for justice. And like, I
Speaker 2: feel like I can walk another couple of miles down
Speaker 2: the road having witnessed this. But it all comes back
Speaker 2: to Baldwin's stuff. I was also at the Museum of
Speaker 2: African American History and Culture on Friday of last week
Speaker 2: and there's this big thing from Baldwin on the major
Speaker 2: wall in the museum about our history. You know, we
Speaker 2: have to face up to it. We are literally you know,
Speaker 2: we inhabit our history, and if we don't deal with it,
Speaker 2: then you know, it will have its way with us.
Speaker 2: And so for me, that is the big thing that
Speaker 2: Baldwin teaches us. It's truth telling and then it's compassion.
Speaker 2: And toward the end of the book, I also point
Speaker 2: out something that I think about almost every day. Baldwin,
Speaker 2: toward the end of his life and a couple of interviews, says,
Speaker 2: the sum total of my wisdom is this, we can
Speaker 2: do better.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'm like, yeah.
Speaker 2: Please God. And particularly for people who look like me
Speaker 2: and who live in a privileged space, Baldwin offers us
Speaker 2: this wisdom and this encouragement and this compassion, you know,
Speaker 2: because it's not out of hate. It's like you know,
Speaker 2: in the beginning essay and the Fire. Next time, when
Speaker 2: he's writing to his nephew James, he says, you know, James,
Speaker 2: you have to love them, these innocent and by that
Speaker 2: I think he means ignorant, but also true. People are
Speaker 2: caught in their own history. Yeah, and we can't advance
Speaker 2: until they advance. So, you know, end of the day,
Speaker 2: Baldwin is one of my favorite writers, and I don't
Speaker 2: talk about him anymore as a gay writer or a
Speaker 2: black writer. He is like Spike Lee. You know, I
Speaker 2: don't talk about as a black director. James Baldwin is
Speaker 2: one of the greatest writers in our history. And those
Speaker 2: seven pages, which are you know, his letter to his
Speaker 2: nephew at the beginning of the fire next time, I
Speaker 2: will hold up to any seven pages written by any
Speaker 2: American writer. I mean, I think that much of him
Speaker 2: as a writer. And then you add in activist and
Speaker 2: advocate and just this figure of courage who did a
Speaker 2: whole bunch of things that were crazy, scary, and yet
Speaker 2: he did them because he believed he needed to be
Speaker 2: a witness.
Speaker 1: I always love the sentiment of him being a witness,
Speaker 1: you know, to what is happening. And I think that
Speaker 1: good writers are right. They're both a witness and a
Speaker 1: mirror for us to see the world through. Right. And
Speaker 1: you know, when you talk about history and the importance
Speaker 1: of history being able to create empathy, we're at a time,
Speaker 1: greg right now where history is being rewritten and erased,
Speaker 1: right where legislation is literally has been passed to ensure white.
Speaker 2: Comfort in my state of Texas, in Florida.
Speaker 1: And Florida across the South, and so for you, right,
Speaker 1: knowing that the purpose of history, right is just not
Speaker 1: to repeat it. It is to create a sense of
Speaker 1: empathy and understanding about the human condition, right, both our
Speaker 1: potential right and our distractions right from ourselves and from
Speaker 1: our character and from our moral standings. And so what
Speaker 1: comes up for you and what does it mean for
Speaker 1: you to be putting out a book in this time
Speaker 1: when a bald would have been banned and is probably banned,
Speaker 1: and it is banned, right, So please.
Speaker 2: Well, first, I have had this conversation with my students
Speaker 2: here at Baylor, and Baylor, of course, is a private
Speaker 2: school in Texas, So you know, I look at colleagues
Speaker 2: at the University of Texas, the flagship school of our state,
Speaker 2: who are starting to wrestle with these questions and these issues.
Speaker 2: And I have said, I said to a reporter from
Speaker 2: Fox News not too long ago, if if I taught
Speaker 2: at one of our state schools, it's very likely I
Speaker 2: would get fired.
Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent.
Speaker 2: And so one of the first things I mean, just
Speaker 2: directly to your question, which was actually posed like a historian.
Speaker 2: I don't know what your major.
Speaker 1: Was, political science, but thank you.
Speaker 2: My historian friends would say Yay, she got the whole
Speaker 2: history thing. When when we don't tell the truth about
Speaker 2: who we are and this is personal, you know. I
Speaker 2: I think about the former president who can't tell the
Speaker 2: truth about who he is as a human being, and
Speaker 2: how detrimental that is not only to him but to
Speaker 2: all of us. I think about people in my life.
Speaker 2: I mean, and I can't name names because like you know,
Speaker 2: we're we're on we're on the air. But I think
Speaker 2: about people who are unable to face who they are
Speaker 2: and be honest about where they come from and about
Speaker 2: their failures and about their their mistakes, and so are
Speaker 2: unable to correct them. And those people are trapped in
Speaker 2: the same way that Baldwin talks about white people being trapped. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So if if forever black people have been the way
Speaker 2: that you measure whiteness, and uh if the lost cause
Speaker 2: myth for example is UH is partly built around you know,
Speaker 2: however difficult your life might be, if you're a poor
Speaker 2: white person in the American South or anywhere in America,
Speaker 2: in the Midwest, any place at least you're not black,
Speaker 2: and you you can you can set that blackness as
Speaker 2: a loadstar. And so Baldwin asked his nephew to think
Speaker 2: about this. What would it be like if you woke
Speaker 2: up in the morning and you looked at the sky
Speaker 2: and everything was different, you know, the sky, you know,
Speaker 2: the sun was out, but the stars were blazing. It
Speaker 2: would freak you out. And so he had this incredible compassion,
Speaker 2: you know, this recognition that asking people to be honest
Speaker 2: about their history is going to shake up who they
Speaker 2: are because it's it's going to force them to tell
Speaker 2: the truth and acknowledge things. But one of the things,
Speaker 2: and I had mentioned to your producer while ago, that
Speaker 2: Robert Jones uh is coming to Baylor next week and
Speaker 2: we're going to do an event together here. Robbie's new
Speaker 2: book about the roots of white supremacy is so good
Speaker 2: at telling our historical truth. Like I went to school,
Speaker 2: I went to high school in Oklahoma. We did not
Speaker 2: learn about also race massacre. We didn't even hear it
Speaker 2: called the Tulsa race riots. We just didn't learn about it.
Speaker 2: And if you don't learn about it, then how can
Speaker 2: you correct it. And it just when you don't deal
Speaker 2: with history, particularly history that's uncomfortable, then it just allows
Speaker 2: the status quo to be maintained. And Baldwin talks about
Speaker 2: the status quo a lot, and he says, it's already
Speaker 2: hard enough to change the status quo because you know,
Speaker 2: as doctor King said, people you know who are in
Speaker 2: a position of privilege, you don't want to give that up, right,
Speaker 2: But if you don't even tell the truth about it,
Speaker 2: and if you don't even say, here are the reasons
Speaker 2: that people in privilege need to reckon with who they
Speaker 2: are and what they've done, then how can anything ever change?
Speaker 2: And that that, for me, is the distressing thing about
Speaker 2: the legislation you're talking about, and honestly why I feel
Speaker 2: not only do I need to write about it, but
Speaker 2: I need to speak. I need to preach. I need
Speaker 2: to get out there in every venue that I can
Speaker 2: and stand there looking like me and say, hey, people
Speaker 2: who look like me, we got to think about this stuff.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I think that it's so important Greg for white people
Speaker 1: like yourself to take on the role of shepherd right
Speaker 1: in trying to corral yeah, and trying to corral people
Speaker 1: outside of their own self interests and privilege, right, Because
Speaker 1: what I believe to be true is that the reason
Speaker 1: why we're at a time when history is being erased again,
Speaker 1: where books are being burned again, Where you're seeing this
Speaker 1: critical pushback in and our public education system being a
Speaker 1: battleground for social justice again, is because of the notable
Speaker 1: progress that has been made, the critical thought that has
Speaker 1: been raised, the opportunities that we saw presented through the
Speaker 1: historical the historic election of the first black president, right
Speaker 1: through you know, through people from marginalized communities sitting inside
Speaker 1: as secretaries of you know, of transportation, as leaders in
Speaker 1: our government. Like this is why this is happening. You
Speaker 1: wouldn't see a need for this kind of white lash
Speaker 1: and bigotry if, in fact, young people's minds haven't already
Speaker 1: been woke right to the fact that, you know what
Speaker 1: this system isn't just this place is not right. It
Speaker 1: isn't okay that by virtue of my birth and whiteness,
Speaker 1: that I have more privilege and opportunity than my friend
Speaker 1: down the street or my neighbor, you know, or what
Speaker 1: have you. And so you know, my question for you,
Speaker 1: the last question I have for you is, you know,
Speaker 1: Baldwin's footprint on this country, on this world is enormous,
Speaker 1: is cemented, is important, and what message do you think
Speaker 1: that he would continue to convey if, in fact, he
Speaker 1: was still with us in this moment of great hopelessness, right,
Speaker 1: because that's where we are. We've had tremendous progress, but
Speaker 1: the pain that we are seeing right now, in the
Speaker 1: cruelty that is being wielded by Republican politicians, is creating
Speaker 1: a sense of hopelessness. So what do you think his
Speaker 1: message would be?
Speaker 2: Oh, and Danielle, that is such a good question. I
Speaker 2: actually had a conversation with the BBC earlier today and
Speaker 2: I was asked something similar and what I had said
Speaker 2: to them, and what I confess to them is that,
Speaker 2: you know, as I look at where the world is
Speaker 2: now in this post Trumpian reality, post Trumpian, please God,
Speaker 2: but it feels darker to me than at any time
Speaker 2: during my lifetime. You know. And I'm sixty one years old,
Speaker 2: you know, I was born in nineteen sixty one, grew
Speaker 2: up in the sixties, was fairly cognizant of what was
Speaker 2: going on. And you know, for all the excitement of
Speaker 2: Barack Obama being elected, I do really think that Abram
Speaker 2: Kennedy has it right, which is this is this is
Speaker 2: not a you know, like a triangle of narrative that
Speaker 2: we're used to. It's it's jagged, you know, And as
Speaker 2: you were saying, Barack Obama's election and a more inclusive
Speaker 2: society scared the crap out of a whole lot of
Speaker 2: white people. And so that's how we end up with,
Speaker 2: you know what the Atlantic called mister Trump as you know,
Speaker 2: the great white supremacist president.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So here's kind of where I land on this a lot.
Speaker 2: There are two late life works by Baldwin that I
Speaker 2: look at. He was asked by Playboy magazine to go
Speaker 2: to Atlanta and investigate the Atlanta child murders, and the
Speaker 2: essay that he wrote is kind of rambling. It's not,
Speaker 2: by any means his most like successful literary work, and
Speaker 2: there are times in it where he seems to be
Speaker 2: so daunted and so lost and so hopeless. And at
Speaker 2: the end of it, he comes back to that question
Speaker 2: of love again and he says, you know, I think
Speaker 2: about the church that I grew up in, where we
Speaker 2: were told to love each other, and he says, whoever
Speaker 2: else did not believe that I did? And I think
Speaker 2: about that a lot, you know, in terms of like
Speaker 2: trying to bridge some of these chasms in our reality
Speaker 2: at this time. And then I also think about hopefulness
Speaker 2: in connection with the last work that he was writing
Speaker 2: at the end of his life, which was a play
Speaker 2: called The Welcome Table. And you know, Baldwin loved black spirituals,
Speaker 2: he loved gospel music, he loved the blues. I know
Speaker 2: that he was referring to, you know, I'm going to
Speaker 2: sit at the Welcome Table one of these days, which
Speaker 2: is one of the songs that I learned in the
Speaker 2: African American Church that rescued me. And the image that
Speaker 2: he had at the Welcome Table was one that he
Speaker 2: talked about throughout his life. Someday, he said, you know,
Speaker 2: and whether that's in this reality, please God or not.
Speaker 2: But someday we are all going to come to this
Speaker 2: space where we can sit at the table and we're
Speaker 2: not going to see those received identities. I'm not going
Speaker 2: to be a straight white Christian man. I'm going to
Speaker 2: be a human. I'm going to be a child of God,
Speaker 2: you know, even as we might put it, and we're
Speaker 2: going to sit together at the table. All of us
Speaker 2: are going to sit together at the table, and we're
Speaker 2: going to be seen and known and loved. And that's
Speaker 2: a central part of my faith and you know, the
Speaker 2: crazy thing is that I think it remained a central
Speaker 2: part of Baldwin's faith even though he fled the organized
Speaker 2: church as a teenager. Up to the end of his life,
Speaker 2: He's still believed in that possibility. And you know, I
Speaker 2: talked about, like, what do I need to get out
Speaker 2: of bed in the morning. I need to believe in hope,
Speaker 2: you know, I need to believe that change is possible,
Speaker 2: that we can do better, and I need to have
Speaker 2: some pragmatic ways to think about that, which for me
Speaker 2: is a white man is We've got to do some
Speaker 2: truth telling. We've got to do some repentance. We've got
Speaker 2: to create relationships with people who have been marginalized. We've
Speaker 2: got to learn who they are and learn what they
Speaker 2: need and how we can move forward, because I mean,
Speaker 2: another problem that white guys have is that we want
Speaker 2: to go in and fix things that we don't know
Speaker 2: anything about. What Baldwin has given me as a person
Speaker 2: who looks and lives like I do, is all of
Speaker 2: these thoughts around love and hope and the idea that
Speaker 2: you know, at the end of the day, we are
Speaker 2: so much more alike than we are different, and that
Speaker 2: there is possibility and you know, I believed I believe
Speaker 2: this so much more strongly when Barack Obama stood on
Speaker 2: the steps of that Ye do when I look at
Speaker 2: the Republican debates. But I also just got back from
Speaker 2: Bill Clinton's Presidential library and I was watching some of
Speaker 2: the video there and it was I mean, it brought
Speaker 2: tears to my eyes. Whatever it is you know that
Speaker 2: you want to say about Bill Clinton, but that that phrase,
Speaker 2: I still believe in a place called hope. And that's
Speaker 2: what Baldwin gives me every time I read him, every
Speaker 2: time I hear his voice, every time I think about him,
Speaker 2: I hope that we can do and be better.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I will. Well, it was Bill Clinton that
Speaker 1: said there is nothing that is wrong with America that
Speaker 1: can't be sixed by what is right by America. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's it, And that is what And that's actually one
Speaker 1: of my favorite that's one of that's one of my
Speaker 1: favorites that I that I still I still with my
Speaker 1: mustard seed of hope that I still hold on to.
Speaker 1: Greg Garrett, this was such a wonderful conversation, folks. The
Speaker 1: book is the Gospel according to James Baldwin, and it
Speaker 1: is out now and I encourage every one to go
Speaker 1: and get a copy. Greg. I hope that you'll come
Speaker 1: back and join us again on WOKF.
Speaker 2: Daniel, I would love that. Thank you so much for
Speaker 2: our time.
Speaker 1: That is it for me today. Dear friends on wok
Speaker 1: F as always power to the people and to all
Speaker 1: the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.