WEBVTT - Truth, Privilege, and James Baldwin 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.800 Good morning, Peepsen. Welcome to wok F Daily with me 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:19.200 your girl Danielle Moody recording from the Home Bunker. Folks, 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:23.319 I'm really excited about the conversation coming up next with 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:29.240 author Greg Garrett, who has the book The Gospel according 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:33.919 to James Baldwin, which is out now. And you know, 0:00:34.280 --> 0:00:38.160 Greg Garrett is a straight white man whose own life 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:44.080 has been profoundly shaped by Baldwin's work. And in this book, 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:50.040 you know, he talks about Baldwin's life as it has 0:00:50.520 --> 0:00:54.640 also affected his own. And I think that you know, 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:56.960 for all of you who've been listening to me for 0:00:57.040 --> 0:00:59.920 quite some time, you know that James Baldwin is so 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:03.080 moody that I hold in high high regard. And if 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:08.640 you ever watch me on TV, his picture is hanging 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:11.600 up behind me in my living room because I think 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:14.319 that he is one of the was one of the 0:01:14.319 --> 0:01:21.360 most profound, prolific writers of the twentieth century. And Greg 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:26.920 and I get into a really great conversation about, you know, 0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:31.160 Baldwin and why him as a straight white man, you know, 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:34.760 he found the need to want to write about him, 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:37.920 and I talk about my experience as a you know, 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:41.560 a queer black woman and entering into politics and also 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:45.880 wanting to have a reflective tone when thinking about the 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:48.760 times that we are living in. And so it was 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:54.400 just a really inspiring conversation and I hope that you 0:01:54.520 --> 0:02:01.920 all enjoy it, folks. I am. I'm very excited to 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:05.320 welcome to ok F Daily for the very first time, 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:12.440 Greg Garrett, who I'm excited to bring on uh to 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:15.320 talk about one of my favorite one of my favorite 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:23.639 writers and authors and just people the Gospel, has written 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:27.680 the book The Gospel according to James Baldwin. And for 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:30.680 those of you who listen UH to my show, you 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:34.880 know that I talk about James Baldwin. I quote James 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:40.760 Baldwin because I think that he was one of the 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:47.200 most thoughtful patron saints of democracy of America that I 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:52.000 had ever seen. So Greg tell us, you know, obviously, 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:57.519 you know, for me, James Baldwin a black queer man, 0:02:58.600 --> 0:03:02.160 I am a black queer woman who also, you know, 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:08.200 because of him, has felt the ability to critique America. 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:13.480 Yeah right. He gave those of us who believe in 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:17.200 the ideals of America the opportunity to say, no, no, 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:20.640 I critique this country because I love it. Because I 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:24.840 would like for it to live up to it's it's 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:28.720 its ideals and its vision, and it fails us time 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:33.040 and time again, and it's heartbreaking. So talk to us 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:36.840 about why Baldwin for you as a as a straight 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:40.720 white man, why you know, why why why Baldwin for you? 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:44.280 Well, and first, you know, Danielle, let me acknowledge. First, 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:47.400 I'm so glad to be here talking with you about 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:51.560 this figure who we love so much. Second, it is 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:55.480 so important, and it was so important to Baldwin's original audiences. 0:03:55.760 --> 0:03:57.440 You know that he was a black man, that he 0:03:57.480 --> 0:04:00.360 was a queer man, that he was a p person 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:04.240 who they could look at and see themselves represented in 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:08.920 some really important ways. And and representation is essential. It's 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:10.840 one of the things that I think a lot about 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:15.480 when I do cultural criticism and cultural theology. When you 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:19.719 when you look at the screen or at the stage 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:22.359 and you don't see yourself represented, it's it's almost like 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:26.200 you don't exist. And so Baldwin. Baldwin was an essential 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:29.359 figure for all of that. But this book actually grows 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:33.080 out of a second thing, which is, without denying in 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:38.320 any way his essential identities, the recognition that great writers, 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:45.600 great artists, great feemakers do this thing which is separate 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:49.760 from their lived identities. And so I talk early in 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:52.720 the book about mister Faulkner, the you know, the great 0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:56.440 Nobel Prize winning novelist, and and mister Baldwin and I 0:04:56.480 --> 0:05:01.240 both had our issues with him. M Faulkner, like many writers, 0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:02.839 was so much better on the page than he was 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:07.160 as a human being. But mister Faulkner talked about how 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:11.760 great artists speak out of their postage stamp of land, 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:17.160 that that loved identity, right. So, like, you know, I 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:20.279 was born in Oklahoma, I grew up in Georgia, North Carolina. 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:23.800 You know, I experienced racism in the schools that I 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:28.760 went to as a kid, and and those things shape 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:31.000 who I am as a fiction writer. As a nonfiction 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:34.760 writer is at theologian. But if I'm doing my job 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:37.160 in the same way that mister Baldwin did his job, 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:40.640 then then my identity as a straight white male, middle 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:46.080 class Christian is not the limitation of who I'm able 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:49.160 to talk to. And what Baldwin does in his work 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:54.120 is you're well aware, is he reaches out to every 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:58.480 every part of the human family. Yeah, and he recognizes 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:02.479 the essential humanity of every one of us. And you know, 0:06:02.520 --> 0:06:04.279 one of the reasons that I started the book with 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:08.400 a chapter on Baldwin's theories about art and with Baldwin's 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:11.599 literary criticism is that, you know, as important as he 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:15.000 thought it was to advance the cause and to work 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:18.440 towards justice and equity, he said that art that only 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:22.640 did that, art that didn't create a fully rounded picture 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:28.839 of its human beings was a failure. And so that's 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:32.000 what I admire about him as a fiction writer, it's 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:35.760 what I admire about him as a critic and theologian, 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:38.880 and I do think of him as a theologian, and 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:42.880 it's what I admire about his activism and his advocacy, 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:46.839 because at the end of the day, he understood that 0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:48.960 we are so much more alike than we are different. 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:51.440 And even though at the beginning of the book I 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:54.440 talk about the Venn diagrams that he and I inhabit, 0:06:54.760 --> 0:06:58.040 and there's only the tiniest bit of space, you know, 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:02.120 once you narrow down all those curs where theoretically James 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:06.280 Baldwin and I operate on the same you know, same plane. 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:09.320 And yet it was very clear to him that he 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:12.040 and I are so much more like than we are different, 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:16.000 and that love is going to triumph in the end, 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:19.440 and the things that we think that separate us are 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:21.880 going to fall away. And I, you know, I can't 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:23.760 get about a bed in the morning if I don't 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:25.720 believe that in my heart of. 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:30.240 Hearts, you know, and and and that is so true 0:07:30.640 --> 0:07:34.040 right and reticent to the moment that we are living in. 0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:37.640 You know, there are some people who their work, their 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:42.280 speech don't carry the test of time. Right that you can, 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:44.760 you can you can look at them and say, ah, 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:47.200 well that you know that made sense for the moment. 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:52.160 I think that what makes Baldwin such an immense figure 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:56.200 and remaining such an immense figure, is that he really 0:07:56.960 --> 0:08:00.200 was not looking just at the conditions of the time 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:03.160 that he was living in, but looking at the human 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:10.840 condition and as as as a bigger piece of it all. 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:13.040 I think one of the things that he had said 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:20.280 when speaking about kind of when speaking about whiteness, right, 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:25.800 and this idea that black and white people are created 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:29.800 and looked at differently, and really looking at it through 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:33.520 the lens of media, is that black people have always 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:37.880 had to look at white people. Right. Everything is about 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:42.160 is about what is mainstream, what is normal is always 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:46.120 measured against what is white. Right, And he had said 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:49.760 that white people never have to look at us, right, 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:53.640 they never have to understand us as complete and total 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:59.720 human beings, which is what makes it easier right to dehumanize, right. 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:03.160 And so I asked this question to you, which is 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:06.520 as we're living inside of this moment, but you're also 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:10.959 in this very reflective space having written this book right 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:17.600 about the complexity and the layered person that is James Baldwin. 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:23.480 You know, how do you see what he stated about 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:26.800 the human condition? How do you see that as continuing 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:32.559 to be true? And if there are any solutions that 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:35.920 we have experienced, even for a brief time, that he 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:37.800 had offered up in his lifetime. 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:41.439 I'm so glad that you just asked that, Daniel. I 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:44.280 am just back from a weekend in Washington, d C. 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:49.319 Where I was at the National Cathedral. And I don't 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:52.520 know if this has crossed your radar, but a few 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:56.840 years ago the National Cathedral decided to remove these windows 0:09:56.880 --> 0:10:00.440 from the nave, the worship space, that were done by 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:03.440 the Daughters of the Confederacy, And I mean, you know, 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:08.120 heads explode just at that sentence. So these windows were 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:10.800 donated in nineteen fifty two, nineteen fifty three, you know, 0:10:10.920 --> 0:10:13.199 right in the middle of the civil rights movement, and 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:16.280 it's you know, it's a very active and you know 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:20.640 and ticket antagonistic act of the Daughters of the Confederacy 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:23.040 to say we want to put these you know, these 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:28.560 Confederate saints in the space of the Nation's Church. And 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:32.280 so after Mother Emmanuel, the dean of the cathedral said 0:10:32.280 --> 0:10:37.040 we we can't continue to house these windows. And so 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:41.480 this weekend the windows had been taken out a couple 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:43.920 of years ago, but a new set of windows were 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:49.400 dedicated and a worship service and celebration came along with that. 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:55.520 Henry Lewis Gates did the reading from the Book of Romans, 0:10:55.640 --> 0:11:02.720 Justice Katanji Brown Jackson Jackson from the Letter from Birmingham Jail. 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:06.000 And I mean like there are a thousand of us 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:09.960 there in the cathedral celebrating these new windows, which are 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:14.559 a new vision, a new voice that has been denied 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:18.959 in the Nation's Church since its founding. One of the 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:20.679 most important parts of the work that I do in 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:23.240 this book on Baldwin is a part of what I do. 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:26.520 I go out and talk to people who look like me, yeah, 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:31.840 about race, And you don't have those victories every day. 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:36.240 And I hear that in your question. But there are 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:39.080 moments of hope, and there are moments of movement when, 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:41.840 as Baldwin asked us to do, we face up to 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:45.959 our history and acknowledge it and tell the truth about it, 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:49.600 And when people who look like me not only acknowledge it, 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:55.240 but repent of it and apologize for it and say 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:59.880 what can we do to make some small movement forward? 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:02.680 And so I've seen that in some of the spaces 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:04.840 that I've been a part of over the last couple 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:07.400 of years. And I saw it this last weekend, and 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:13.080 I mean it was a celebration of a victory for 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:18.600 inclusion and for conversation and for justice. And like, I 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:20.880 feel like I can walk another couple of miles down 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:23.880 the road having witnessed this. But it all comes back 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:27.200 to Baldwin's stuff. I was also at the Museum of 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:31.400 African American History and Culture on Friday of last week 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:35.200 and there's this big thing from Baldwin on the major 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:38.600 wall in the museum about our history. You know, we 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:41.120 have to face up to it. We are literally you know, 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:45.040 we inhabit our history, and if we don't deal with it, 0:12:45.120 --> 0:12:48.000 then you know, it will have its way with us. 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:50.760 And so for me, that is the big thing that 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:55.760 Baldwin teaches us. It's truth telling and then it's compassion. 0:12:57.600 --> 0:12:59.760 And toward the end of the book, I also point 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:02.920 out something that I think about almost every day. Baldwin, 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:05.160 toward the end of his life and a couple of interviews, says, 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:09.720 the sum total of my wisdom is this, we can 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:10.680 do better. 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:13.120 Yeah, And I'm like, yeah. 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:16.680 Please God. And particularly for people who look like me 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:20.600 and who live in a privileged space, Baldwin offers us 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:25.240 this wisdom and this encouragement and this compassion, you know, 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:27.840 because it's not out of hate. It's like you know, 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:31.280 in the beginning essay and the Fire. Next time, when 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:34.400 he's writing to his nephew James, he says, you know, James, 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:38.760 you have to love them, these innocent and by that 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:42.640 I think he means ignorant, but also true. People are 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:46.359 caught in their own history. Yeah, and we can't advance 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:51.720 until they advance. So, you know, end of the day, 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:54.320 Baldwin is one of my favorite writers, and I don't 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:56.640 talk about him anymore as a gay writer or a 0:13:56.679 --> 0:13:59.360 black writer. He is like Spike Lee. You know, I 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:02.800 don't talk about as a black director. James Baldwin is 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:06.280 one of the greatest writers in our history. And those 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:09.440 seven pages, which are you know, his letter to his 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:13.440 nephew at the beginning of the fire next time, I 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:16.760 will hold up to any seven pages written by any 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:21.400 American writer. I mean, I think that much of him 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:23.920 as a writer. And then you add in activist and 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:28.360 advocate and just this figure of courage who did a 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:31.640 whole bunch of things that were crazy, scary, and yet 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:33.560 he did them because he believed he needed to be 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:35.840 a witness. 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:40.800 I always love the sentiment of him being a witness, 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:43.240 you know, to what is happening. And I think that 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:50.120 good writers are right. They're both a witness and a 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:54.920 mirror for us to see the world through. Right. And 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:59.479 you know, when you talk about history and the importance 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:04.640 of history being able to create empathy, we're at a time, 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:09.880 greg right now where history is being rewritten and erased, 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:17.160 right where legislation is literally has been passed to ensure white. 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:20.480 Comfort in my state of Texas, in Florida. 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:25.160 And Florida across the South, and so for you, right, 0:15:26.520 --> 0:15:31.040 knowing that the purpose of history, right is just not 0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:34.440 to repeat it. It is to create a sense of 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:39.560 empathy and understanding about the human condition, right, both our 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:47.000 potential right and our distractions right from ourselves and from 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:52.040 our character and from our moral standings. And so what 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:54.360 comes up for you and what does it mean for 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:58.200 you to be putting out a book in this time 0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:03.120 when a bald would have been banned and is probably banned, 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:07.760 and it is banned, right, So please. 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:10.520 Well, first, I have had this conversation with my students 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:13.120 here at Baylor, and Baylor, of course, is a private 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:16.960 school in Texas, So you know, I look at colleagues 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:20.760 at the University of Texas, the flagship school of our state, 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:25.400 who are starting to wrestle with these questions and these issues. 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:29.000 And I have said, I said to a reporter from 0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:32.280 Fox News not too long ago, if if I taught 0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:34.120 at one of our state schools, it's very likely I 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:34.840 would get fired. 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:36.560 Yeah, one hundred percent. 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:40.560 And so one of the first things I mean, just 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:43.600 directly to your question, which was actually posed like a historian. 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:44.800 I don't know what your major. 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:47.440 Was, political science, but thank you. 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:51.840 My historian friends would say Yay, she got the whole 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:57.000 history thing. When when we don't tell the truth about 0:16:57.000 --> 0:17:00.280 who we are and this is personal, you know. I 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:04.879 I think about the former president who can't tell the 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:07.400 truth about who he is as a human being, and 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:10.000 how detrimental that is not only to him but to 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:12.960 all of us. I think about people in my life. 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:15.959 I mean, and I can't name names because like you know, 0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:19.280 we're we're on we're on the air. But I think 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:21.800 about people who are unable to face who they are 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:25.280 and be honest about where they come from and about 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:28.520 their failures and about their their mistakes, and so are 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:33.840 unable to correct them. And those people are trapped in 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:38.119 the same way that Baldwin talks about white people being trapped. Yeah. 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:42.600 So if if forever black people have been the way 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:47.560 that you measure whiteness, and uh if the lost cause 0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:50.800 myth for example is UH is partly built around you know, 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:54.280 however difficult your life might be, if you're a poor 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:57.400 white person in the American South or anywhere in America, 0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:01.320 in the Midwest, any place at least you're not black, 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:04.560 and you you can you can set that blackness as 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:08.760 a loadstar. And so Baldwin asked his nephew to think 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:10.480 about this. What would it be like if you woke 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:12.359 up in the morning and you looked at the sky 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:15.159 and everything was different, you know, the sky, you know, 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:17.919 the sun was out, but the stars were blazing. It 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:23.399 would freak you out. And so he had this incredible compassion, 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:26.520 you know, this recognition that asking people to be honest 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:30.040 about their history is going to shake up who they 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:32.000 are because it's it's going to force them to tell 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:36.639 the truth and acknowledge things. But one of the things, 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:39.520 and I had mentioned to your producer while ago, that 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:42.280 Robert Jones uh is coming to Baylor next week and 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:46.239 we're going to do an event together here. Robbie's new 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:50.159 book about the roots of white supremacy is so good 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:56.320 at telling our historical truth. Like I went to school, 0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:58.800 I went to high school in Oklahoma. We did not 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:02.720 learn about also race massacre. We didn't even hear it 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:06.000 called the Tulsa race riots. We just didn't learn about it. 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:09.200 And if you don't learn about it, then how can 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:13.760 you correct it. And it just when you don't deal 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:17.520 with history, particularly history that's uncomfortable, then it just allows 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:21.360 the status quo to be maintained. And Baldwin talks about 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:23.360 the status quo a lot, and he says, it's already 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:26.760 hard enough to change the status quo because you know, 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:28.680 as doctor King said, people you know who are in 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:31.919 a position of privilege, you don't want to give that up, right, 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:34.200 But if you don't even tell the truth about it, 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:36.400 and if you don't even say, here are the reasons 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:39.159 that people in privilege need to reckon with who they 0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:42.520 are and what they've done, then how can anything ever change? 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:45.359 And that that, for me, is the distressing thing about 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:49.240 the legislation you're talking about, and honestly why I feel 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:51.159 not only do I need to write about it, but 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:53.440 I need to speak. I need to preach. I need 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:56.400 to get out there in every venue that I can 0:19:57.160 --> 0:20:00.560 and stand there looking like me and say, hey, people 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:03.679 who look like me, we got to think about this stuff. 0:20:06.800 --> 0:20:07.000 You know. 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:10.760 I think that it's so important Greg for white people 0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:19.200 like yourself to take on the role of shepherd right 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:24.800 in trying to corral yeah, and trying to corral people 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:30.040 outside of their own self interests and privilege, right, Because 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:33.040 what I believe to be true is that the reason 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:37.199 why we're at a time when history is being erased again, 0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:40.960 where books are being burned again, Where you're seeing this 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:45.600 critical pushback in and our public education system being a 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:50.680 battleground for social justice again, is because of the notable 0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:54.520 progress that has been made, the critical thought that has 0:20:54.600 --> 0:21:00.280 been raised, the opportunities that we saw presented through the 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:04.080 historical the historic election of the first black president, right 0:21:04.480 --> 0:21:08.399 through you know, through people from marginalized communities sitting inside 0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:13.480 as secretaries of you know, of transportation, as leaders in 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:16.480 our government. Like this is why this is happening. You 0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:19.560 wouldn't see a need for this kind of white lash 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:23.720 and bigotry if, in fact, young people's minds haven't already 0:21:23.760 --> 0:21:27.399 been woke right to the fact that, you know what 0:21:27.880 --> 0:21:31.040 this system isn't just this place is not right. It 0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:33.879 isn't okay that by virtue of my birth and whiteness, 0:21:33.920 --> 0:21:37.040 that I have more privilege and opportunity than my friend 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:40.000 down the street or my neighbor, you know, or what 0:21:40.160 --> 0:21:42.399 have you. And so you know, my question for you, 0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:45.720 the last question I have for you is, you know, 0:21:46.440 --> 0:21:54.760 Baldwin's footprint on this country, on this world is enormous, 0:21:55.880 --> 0:22:02.800 is cemented, is important, and what message do you think 0:22:02.960 --> 0:22:07.359 that he would continue to convey if, in fact, he 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:12.760 was still with us in this moment of great hopelessness, right, 0:22:13.080 --> 0:22:18.000 because that's where we are. We've had tremendous progress, but 0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:21.280 the pain that we are seeing right now, in the 0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:27.480 cruelty that is being wielded by Republican politicians, is creating 0:22:28.000 --> 0:22:32.560 a sense of hopelessness. So what do you think his 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:33.479 message would be? 0:22:35.320 --> 0:22:37.040 Oh, and Danielle, that is such a good question. I 0:22:37.080 --> 0:22:41.159 actually had a conversation with the BBC earlier today and 0:22:41.240 --> 0:22:44.080 I was asked something similar and what I had said 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:45.680 to them, and what I confess to them is that, 0:22:46.160 --> 0:22:47.840 you know, as I look at where the world is 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:51.520 now in this post Trumpian reality, post Trumpian, please God, 0:22:52.160 --> 0:22:55.200 but it feels darker to me than at any time 0:22:55.280 --> 0:22:58.480 during my lifetime. You know. And I'm sixty one years old, 0:22:58.600 --> 0:23:00.880 you know, I was born in nineteen sixty one, grew 0:23:00.960 --> 0:23:04.480 up in the sixties, was fairly cognizant of what was 0:23:04.520 --> 0:23:08.159 going on. And you know, for all the excitement of 0:23:08.200 --> 0:23:12.919 Barack Obama being elected, I do really think that Abram 0:23:13.000 --> 0:23:15.879 Kennedy has it right, which is this is this is 0:23:15.960 --> 0:23:19.760 not a you know, like a triangle of narrative that 0:23:19.800 --> 0:23:24.160 we're used to. It's it's jagged, you know, And as 0:23:24.200 --> 0:23:29.200 you were saying, Barack Obama's election and a more inclusive 0:23:29.200 --> 0:23:31.520 society scared the crap out of a whole lot of 0:23:31.720 --> 0:23:35.360 white people. And so that's how we end up with, 0:23:35.920 --> 0:23:38.600 you know what the Atlantic called mister Trump as you know, 0:23:38.640 --> 0:23:40.920 the great white supremacist president. 0:23:41.600 --> 0:23:42.919 Yeah. 0:23:42.960 --> 0:23:46.320 So here's kind of where I land on this a lot. 0:23:46.600 --> 0:23:49.600 There are two late life works by Baldwin that I 0:23:49.640 --> 0:23:52.959 look at. He was asked by Playboy magazine to go 0:23:53.000 --> 0:23:57.240 to Atlanta and investigate the Atlanta child murders, and the 0:23:57.440 --> 0:23:59.919 essay that he wrote is kind of rambling. It's not, 0:24:00.160 --> 0:24:03.159 by any means his most like successful literary work, and 0:24:03.200 --> 0:24:04.919 there are times in it where he seems to be 0:24:05.000 --> 0:24:08.840 so daunted and so lost and so hopeless. And at 0:24:08.840 --> 0:24:11.919 the end of it, he comes back to that question 0:24:11.960 --> 0:24:16.640 of love again and he says, you know, I think 0:24:16.680 --> 0:24:20.040 about the church that I grew up in, where we 0:24:20.040 --> 0:24:23.520 were told to love each other, and he says, whoever 0:24:23.600 --> 0:24:27.280 else did not believe that I did? And I think 0:24:27.359 --> 0:24:30.480 about that a lot, you know, in terms of like 0:24:31.520 --> 0:24:34.960 trying to bridge some of these chasms in our reality 0:24:35.000 --> 0:24:38.560 at this time. And then I also think about hopefulness 0:24:38.600 --> 0:24:41.159 in connection with the last work that he was writing 0:24:41.200 --> 0:24:42.800 at the end of his life, which was a play 0:24:42.840 --> 0:24:47.920 called The Welcome Table. And you know, Baldwin loved black spirituals, 0:24:47.960 --> 0:24:51.159 he loved gospel music, he loved the blues. I know 0:24:51.280 --> 0:24:53.119 that he was referring to, you know, I'm going to 0:24:53.200 --> 0:24:55.800 sit at the Welcome Table one of these days, which 0:24:55.840 --> 0:24:57.280 is one of the songs that I learned in the 0:24:57.320 --> 0:25:02.879 African American Church that rescued me. And the image that 0:25:02.960 --> 0:25:04.600 he had at the Welcome Table was one that he 0:25:04.640 --> 0:25:09.840 talked about throughout his life. Someday, he said, you know, 0:25:09.960 --> 0:25:13.520 and whether that's in this reality, please God or not. 0:25:13.760 --> 0:25:16.680 But someday we are all going to come to this 0:25:16.880 --> 0:25:19.320 space where we can sit at the table and we're 0:25:19.320 --> 0:25:22.919 not going to see those received identities. I'm not going 0:25:23.000 --> 0:25:26.159 to be a straight white Christian man. I'm going to 0:25:26.200 --> 0:25:27.840 be a human. I'm going to be a child of God, 0:25:28.160 --> 0:25:32.560 you know, even as we might put it, and we're 0:25:32.600 --> 0:25:34.280