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Speaker 1: Good morning, Peepsen. Welcome to wok F Daily with me

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Speaker 1: your girl Danielle Moody recording from the Home Bunker. Folks,

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Speaker 1: I'm really excited about the conversation coming up next with

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Speaker 1: author Greg Garrett, who has the book The Gospel according

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Speaker 1: to James Baldwin, which is out now. And you know,

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Speaker 1: Greg Garrett is a straight white man whose own life

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Speaker 1: has been profoundly shaped by Baldwin's work. And in this book,

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Speaker 1: you know, he talks about Baldwin's life as it has

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Speaker 1: also affected his own. And I think that you know,

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Speaker 1: for all of you who've been listening to me for

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Speaker 1: quite some time, you know that James Baldwin is so

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Speaker 1: moody that I hold in high high regard. And if

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Speaker 1: you ever watch me on TV, his picture is hanging

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Speaker 1: up behind me in my living room because I think

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Speaker 1: that he is one of the was one of the

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Speaker 1: most profound, prolific writers of the twentieth century. And Greg

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Speaker 1: and I get into a really great conversation about, you know,

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Speaker 1: Baldwin and why him as a straight white man, you know,

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Speaker 1: he found the need to want to write about him,

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Speaker 1: and I talk about my experience as a you know,

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Speaker 1: a queer black woman and entering into politics and also

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Speaker 1: wanting to have a reflective tone when thinking about the

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Speaker 1: times that we are living in. And so it was

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Speaker 1: just a really inspiring conversation and I hope that you

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Speaker 1: all enjoy it, folks. I am. I'm very excited to

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Speaker 1: welcome to ok F Daily for the very first time,

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Speaker 1: Greg Garrett, who I'm excited to bring on uh to

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Speaker 1: talk about one of my favorite one of my favorite

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Speaker 1: writers and authors and just people the Gospel, has written

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Speaker 1: the book The Gospel according to James Baldwin. And for

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Speaker 1: those of you who listen UH to my show, you

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Speaker 1: know that I talk about James Baldwin. I quote James

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Speaker 1: Baldwin because I think that he was one of the

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Speaker 1: most thoughtful patron saints of democracy of America that I

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Speaker 1: had ever seen. So Greg tell us, you know, obviously,

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Speaker 1: you know, for me, James Baldwin a black queer man,

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Speaker 1: I am a black queer woman who also, you know,

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Speaker 1: because of him, has felt the ability to critique America.

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Speaker 1: Yeah right. He gave those of us who believe in

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Speaker 1: the ideals of America the opportunity to say, no, no,

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Speaker 1: I critique this country because I love it. Because I

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Speaker 1: would like for it to live up to it's it's

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Speaker 1: its ideals and its vision, and it fails us time

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Speaker 1: and time again, and it's heartbreaking. So talk to us

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Speaker 1: about why Baldwin for you as a as a straight

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Speaker 1: white man, why you know, why why why Baldwin for you?

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Speaker 2: Well, and first, you know, Danielle, let me acknowledge. First,

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Speaker 2: I'm so glad to be here talking with you about

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Speaker 2: this figure who we love so much. Second, it is

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Speaker 2: so important, and it was so important to Baldwin's original audiences.

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Speaker 2: You know that he was a black man, that he

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Speaker 2: was a queer man, that he was a p person

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Speaker 2: who they could look at and see themselves represented in

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Speaker 2: some really important ways. And and representation is essential. It's

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Speaker 2: one of the things that I think a lot about

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Speaker 2: when I do cultural criticism and cultural theology. When you

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Speaker 2: when you look at the screen or at the stage

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Speaker 2: and you don't see yourself represented, it's it's almost like

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Speaker 2: you don't exist. And so Baldwin. Baldwin was an essential

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Speaker 2: figure for all of that. But this book actually grows

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Speaker 2: out of a second thing, which is, without denying in

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Speaker 2: any way his essential identities, the recognition that great writers,

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Speaker 2: great artists, great feemakers do this thing which is separate

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Speaker 2: from their lived identities. And so I talk early in

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Speaker 2: the book about mister Faulkner, the you know, the great

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Speaker 2: Nobel Prize winning novelist, and and mister Baldwin and I

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Speaker 2: both had our issues with him. M Faulkner, like many writers,

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Speaker 2: was so much better on the page than he was

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Speaker 2: as a human being. But mister Faulkner talked about how

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Speaker 2: great artists speak out of their postage stamp of land,

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Speaker 2: that that loved identity, right. So, like, you know, I

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Speaker 2: was born in Oklahoma, I grew up in Georgia, North Carolina.

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Speaker 2: You know, I experienced racism in the schools that I

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Speaker 2: went to as a kid, and and those things shape

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Speaker 2: who I am as a fiction writer. As a nonfiction

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Speaker 2: writer is at theologian. But if I'm doing my job

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Speaker 2: in the same way that mister Baldwin did his job,

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Speaker 2: then then my identity as a straight white male, middle

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Speaker 2: class Christian is not the limitation of who I'm able

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Speaker 2: to talk to. And what Baldwin does in his work

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Speaker 2: is you're well aware, is he reaches out to every

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Speaker 2: every part of the human family. Yeah, and he recognizes

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Speaker 2: the essential humanity of every one of us. And you know,

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Speaker 2: one of the reasons that I started the book with

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Speaker 2: a chapter on Baldwin's theories about art and with Baldwin's

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Speaker 2: literary criticism is that, you know, as important as he

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Speaker 2: thought it was to advance the cause and to work

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Speaker 2: towards justice and equity, he said that art that only

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Speaker 2: did that, art that didn't create a fully rounded picture

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Speaker 2: of its human beings was a failure. And so that's

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Speaker 2: what I admire about him as a fiction writer, it's

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Speaker 2: what I admire about him as a critic and theologian,

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Speaker 2: and I do think of him as a theologian, and

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Speaker 2: it's what I admire about his activism and his advocacy,

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Speaker 2: because at the end of the day, he understood that

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Speaker 2: we are so much more alike than we are different.

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Speaker 2: And even though at the beginning of the book I

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Speaker 2: talk about the Venn diagrams that he and I inhabit,

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Speaker 2: and there's only the tiniest bit of space, you know,

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Speaker 2: once you narrow down all those curs where theoretically James

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Speaker 2: Baldwin and I operate on the same you know, same plane.

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Speaker 2: And yet it was very clear to him that he

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Speaker 2: and I are so much more like than we are different,

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Speaker 2: and that love is going to triumph in the end,

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Speaker 2: and the things that we think that separate us are

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Speaker 2: going to fall away. And I, you know, I can't

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Speaker 2: get about a bed in the morning if I don't

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Speaker 2: believe that in my heart of.

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Speaker 1: Hearts, you know, and and and that is so true

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Speaker 1: right and reticent to the moment that we are living in.

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Speaker 1: You know, there are some people who their work, their

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Speaker 1: speech don't carry the test of time. Right that you can,

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Speaker 1: you can you can look at them and say, ah,

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Speaker 1: well that you know that made sense for the moment.

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Speaker 1: I think that what makes Baldwin such an immense figure

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Speaker 1: and remaining such an immense figure, is that he really

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Speaker 1: was not looking just at the conditions of the time

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Speaker 1: that he was living in, but looking at the human

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Speaker 1: condition and as as as a bigger piece of it all.

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Speaker 1: I think one of the things that he had said

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Speaker 1: when speaking about kind of when speaking about whiteness, right,

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Speaker 1: and this idea that black and white people are created

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Speaker 1: and looked at differently, and really looking at it through

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Speaker 1: the lens of media, is that black people have always

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Speaker 1: had to look at white people. Right. Everything is about

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Speaker 1: is about what is mainstream, what is normal is always

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Speaker 1: measured against what is white. Right, And he had said

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Speaker 1: that white people never have to look at us, right,

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Speaker 1: they never have to understand us as complete and total

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Speaker 1: human beings, which is what makes it easier right to dehumanize, right.

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Speaker 1: And so I asked this question to you, which is

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Speaker 1: as we're living inside of this moment, but you're also

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Speaker 1: in this very reflective space having written this book right

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Speaker 1: about the complexity and the layered person that is James Baldwin.

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Speaker 1: You know, how do you see what he stated about

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Speaker 1: the human condition? How do you see that as continuing

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Speaker 1: to be true? And if there are any solutions that

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Speaker 1: we have experienced, even for a brief time, that he

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Speaker 1: had offered up in his lifetime.

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Speaker 2: I'm so glad that you just asked that, Daniel. I

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Speaker 2: am just back from a weekend in Washington, d C.

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Speaker 2: Where I was at the National Cathedral. And I don't

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Speaker 2: know if this has crossed your radar, but a few

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Speaker 2: years ago the National Cathedral decided to remove these windows

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Speaker 2: from the nave, the worship space, that were done by

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Speaker 2: the Daughters of the Confederacy, And I mean, you know,

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Speaker 2: heads explode just at that sentence. So these windows were

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Speaker 2: donated in nineteen fifty two, nineteen fifty three, you know,

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Speaker 2: right in the middle of the civil rights movement, and

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Speaker 2: it's you know, it's a very active and you know

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Speaker 2: and ticket antagonistic act of the Daughters of the Confederacy

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Speaker 2: to say we want to put these you know, these

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Speaker 2: Confederate saints in the space of the Nation's Church. And

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Speaker 2: so after Mother Emmanuel, the dean of the cathedral said

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Speaker 2: we we can't continue to house these windows. And so

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Speaker 2: this weekend the windows had been taken out a couple

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Speaker 2: of years ago, but a new set of windows were

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Speaker 2: dedicated and a worship service and celebration came along with that.

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Speaker 2: Henry Lewis Gates did the reading from the Book of Romans,

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Speaker 2: Justice Katanji Brown Jackson Jackson from the Letter from Birmingham Jail.

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Speaker 2: And I mean like there are a thousand of us

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Speaker 2: there in the cathedral celebrating these new windows, which are

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Speaker 2: a new vision, a new voice that has been denied

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Speaker 2: in the Nation's Church since its founding. One of the

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Speaker 2: most important parts of the work that I do in

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Speaker 2: this book on Baldwin is a part of what I do.

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Speaker 2: I go out and talk to people who look like me, yeah,

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Speaker 2: about race, And you don't have those victories every day.

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Speaker 2: And I hear that in your question. But there are

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Speaker 2: moments of hope, and there are moments of movement when,

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Speaker 2: as Baldwin asked us to do, we face up to

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Speaker 2: our history and acknowledge it and tell the truth about it,

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Speaker 2: And when people who look like me not only acknowledge it,

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Speaker 2: but repent of it and apologize for it and say

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Speaker 2: what can we do to make some small movement forward?

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Speaker 2: And so I've seen that in some of the spaces

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Speaker 2: that I've been a part of over the last couple

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Speaker 2: of years. And I saw it this last weekend, and

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Speaker 2: I mean it was a celebration of a victory for

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Speaker 2: inclusion and for conversation and for justice. And like, I

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Speaker 2: feel like I can walk another couple of miles down

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Speaker 2: the road having witnessed this. But it all comes back

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Speaker 2: to Baldwin's stuff. I was also at the Museum of

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Speaker 2: African American History and Culture on Friday of last week

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Speaker 2: and there's this big thing from Baldwin on the major

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Speaker 2: wall in the museum about our history. You know, we

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Speaker 2: have to face up to it. We are literally you know,

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Speaker 2: we inhabit our history, and if we don't deal with it,

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Speaker 2: then you know, it will have its way with us.

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Speaker 2: And so for me, that is the big thing that

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Speaker 2: Baldwin teaches us. It's truth telling and then it's compassion.

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Speaker 2: And toward the end of the book, I also point

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Speaker 2: out something that I think about almost every day. Baldwin,

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Speaker 2: toward the end of his life and a couple of interviews, says,

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Speaker 2: the sum total of my wisdom is this, we can

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Speaker 2: do better.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'm like, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Please God. And particularly for people who look like me

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Speaker 2: and who live in a privileged space, Baldwin offers us

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Speaker 2: this wisdom and this encouragement and this compassion, you know,

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Speaker 2: because it's not out of hate. It's like you know,

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Speaker 2: in the beginning essay and the Fire. Next time, when

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Speaker 2: he's writing to his nephew James, he says, you know, James,

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Speaker 2: you have to love them, these innocent and by that

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Speaker 2: I think he means ignorant, but also true. People are

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Speaker 2: caught in their own history. Yeah, and we can't advance

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Speaker 2: until they advance. So, you know, end of the day,

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Speaker 2: Baldwin is one of my favorite writers, and I don't

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Speaker 2: talk about him anymore as a gay writer or a

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Speaker 2: black writer. He is like Spike Lee. You know, I

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Speaker 2: don't talk about as a black director. James Baldwin is

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Speaker 2: one of the greatest writers in our history. And those

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Speaker 2: seven pages, which are you know, his letter to his

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Speaker 2: nephew at the beginning of the fire next time, I

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Speaker 2: will hold up to any seven pages written by any

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Speaker 2: American writer. I mean, I think that much of him

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Speaker 2: as a writer. And then you add in activist and

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Speaker 2: advocate and just this figure of courage who did a

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Speaker 2: whole bunch of things that were crazy, scary, and yet

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Speaker 2: he did them because he believed he needed to be

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Speaker 2: a witness.

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Speaker 1: I always love the sentiment of him being a witness,

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Speaker 1: you know, to what is happening. And I think that

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Speaker 1: good writers are right. They're both a witness and a

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Speaker 1: mirror for us to see the world through. Right. And

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Speaker 1: you know, when you talk about history and the importance

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Speaker 1: of history being able to create empathy, we're at a time,

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Speaker 1: greg right now where history is being rewritten and erased,

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Speaker 1: right where legislation is literally has been passed to ensure white.

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Speaker 2: Comfort in my state of Texas, in Florida.

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Speaker 1: And Florida across the South, and so for you, right,

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Speaker 1: knowing that the purpose of history, right is just not

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Speaker 1: to repeat it. It is to create a sense of

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Speaker 1: empathy and understanding about the human condition, right, both our

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Speaker 1: potential right and our distractions right from ourselves and from

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Speaker 1: our character and from our moral standings. And so what

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Speaker 1: comes up for you and what does it mean for

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Speaker 1: you to be putting out a book in this time

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Speaker 1: when a bald would have been banned and is probably banned,

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Speaker 1: and it is banned, right, So please.

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Speaker 2: Well, first, I have had this conversation with my students

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Speaker 2: here at Baylor, and Baylor, of course, is a private

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Speaker 2: school in Texas, So you know, I look at colleagues

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Speaker 2: at the University of Texas, the flagship school of our state,

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Speaker 2: who are starting to wrestle with these questions and these issues.

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Speaker 2: And I have said, I said to a reporter from

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Speaker 2: Fox News not too long ago, if if I taught

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Speaker 2: at one of our state schools, it's very likely I

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Speaker 2: would get fired.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent.

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Speaker 2: And so one of the first things I mean, just

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Speaker 2: directly to your question, which was actually posed like a historian.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what your major.

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Speaker 1: Was, political science, but thank you.

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Speaker 2: My historian friends would say Yay, she got the whole

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Speaker 2: history thing. When when we don't tell the truth about

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Speaker 2: who we are and this is personal, you know. I

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Speaker 2: I think about the former president who can't tell the

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Speaker 2: truth about who he is as a human being, and

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Speaker 2: how detrimental that is not only to him but to

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Speaker 2: all of us. I think about people in my life.

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Speaker 2: I mean, and I can't name names because like you know,

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Speaker 2: we're we're on we're on the air. But I think

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Speaker 2: about people who are unable to face who they are

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Speaker 2: and be honest about where they come from and about

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Speaker 2: their failures and about their their mistakes, and so are

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Speaker 2: unable to correct them. And those people are trapped in

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Speaker 2: the same way that Baldwin talks about white people being trapped. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So if if forever black people have been the way

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Speaker 2: that you measure whiteness, and uh if the lost cause

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Speaker 2: myth for example is UH is partly built around you know,

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Speaker 2: however difficult your life might be, if you're a poor

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Speaker 2: white person in the American South or anywhere in America,

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Speaker 2: in the Midwest, any place at least you're not black,

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Speaker 2: and you you can you can set that blackness as

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Speaker 2: a loadstar. And so Baldwin asked his nephew to think

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Speaker 2: about this. What would it be like if you woke

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Speaker 2: up in the morning and you looked at the sky

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Speaker 2: and everything was different, you know, the sky, you know,

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Speaker 2: the sun was out, but the stars were blazing. It

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Speaker 2: would freak you out. And so he had this incredible compassion,

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Speaker 2: you know, this recognition that asking people to be honest

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Speaker 2: about their history is going to shake up who they

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Speaker 2: are because it's it's going to force them to tell

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Speaker 2: the truth and acknowledge things. But one of the things,

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Speaker 2: and I had mentioned to your producer while ago, that

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Speaker 2: Robert Jones uh is coming to Baylor next week and

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Speaker 2: we're going to do an event together here. Robbie's new

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Speaker 2: book about the roots of white supremacy is so good

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Speaker 2: at telling our historical truth. Like I went to school,

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Speaker 2: I went to high school in Oklahoma. We did not

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Speaker 2: learn about also race massacre. We didn't even hear it

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Speaker 2: called the Tulsa race riots. We just didn't learn about it.

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Speaker 2: And if you don't learn about it, then how can

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Speaker 2: you correct it. And it just when you don't deal

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Speaker 2: with history, particularly history that's uncomfortable, then it just allows

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Speaker 2: the status quo to be maintained. And Baldwin talks about

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Speaker 2: the status quo a lot, and he says, it's already

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Speaker 2: hard enough to change the status quo because you know,

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Speaker 2: as doctor King said, people you know who are in

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Speaker 2: a position of privilege, you don't want to give that up, right,

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Speaker 2: But if you don't even tell the truth about it,

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Speaker 2: and if you don't even say, here are the reasons

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Speaker 2: that people in privilege need to reckon with who they

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Speaker 2: are and what they've done, then how can anything ever change?

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Speaker 2: And that that, for me, is the distressing thing about

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Speaker 2: the legislation you're talking about, and honestly why I feel

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Speaker 2: not only do I need to write about it, but

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Speaker 2: I need to speak. I need to preach. I need

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Speaker 2: to get out there in every venue that I can

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Speaker 2: and stand there looking like me and say, hey, people

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Speaker 2: who look like me, we got to think about this stuff.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: I think that it's so important Greg for white people

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Speaker 1: like yourself to take on the role of shepherd right

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Speaker 1: in trying to corral yeah, and trying to corral people

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Speaker 1: outside of their own self interests and privilege, right, Because

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Speaker 1: what I believe to be true is that the reason

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Speaker 1: why we're at a time when history is being erased again,

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Speaker 1: where books are being burned again, Where you're seeing this

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Speaker 1: critical pushback in and our public education system being a

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Speaker 1: battleground for social justice again, is because of the notable

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Speaker 1: progress that has been made, the critical thought that has

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Speaker 1: been raised, the opportunities that we saw presented through the

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Speaker 1: historical the historic election of the first black president, right

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Speaker 1: through you know, through people from marginalized communities sitting inside

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Speaker 1: as secretaries of you know, of transportation, as leaders in

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Speaker 1: our government. Like this is why this is happening. You

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Speaker 1: wouldn't see a need for this kind of white lash

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Speaker 1: and bigotry if, in fact, young people's minds haven't already

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Speaker 1: been woke right to the fact that, you know what

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Speaker 1: this system isn't just this place is not right. It

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Speaker 1: isn't okay that by virtue of my birth and whiteness,

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Speaker 1: that I have more privilege and opportunity than my friend

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Speaker 1: down the street or my neighbor, you know, or what

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Speaker 1: have you. And so you know, my question for you,

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Speaker 1: the last question I have for you is, you know,

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Speaker 1: Baldwin's footprint on this country, on this world is enormous,

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Speaker 1: is cemented, is important, and what message do you think

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Speaker 1: that he would continue to convey if, in fact, he

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Speaker 1: was still with us in this moment of great hopelessness, right,

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Speaker 1: because that's where we are. We've had tremendous progress, but

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Speaker 1: the pain that we are seeing right now, in the

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Speaker 1: cruelty that is being wielded by Republican politicians, is creating

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Speaker 1: a sense of hopelessness. So what do you think his

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Speaker 1: message would be?

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Speaker 2: Oh, and Danielle, that is such a good question. I

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Speaker 2: actually had a conversation with the BBC earlier today and

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Speaker 2: I was asked something similar and what I had said

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Speaker 2: to them, and what I confess to them is that,

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Speaker 2: you know, as I look at where the world is

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Speaker 2: now in this post Trumpian reality, post Trumpian, please God,

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Speaker 2: but it feels darker to me than at any time

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Speaker 2: during my lifetime. You know. And I'm sixty one years old,

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Speaker 2: you know, I was born in nineteen sixty one, grew

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Speaker 2: up in the sixties, was fairly cognizant of what was

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Speaker 2: going on. And you know, for all the excitement of

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Speaker 2: Barack Obama being elected, I do really think that Abram

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Speaker 2: Kennedy has it right, which is this is this is

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Speaker 2: not a you know, like a triangle of narrative that

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Speaker 2: we're used to. It's it's jagged, you know, And as

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Speaker 2: you were saying, Barack Obama's election and a more inclusive

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Speaker 2: society scared the crap out of a whole lot of

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Speaker 2: white people. And so that's how we end up with,

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Speaker 2: you know what the Atlantic called mister Trump as you know,

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Speaker 2: the great white supremacist president.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So here's kind of where I land on this a lot.

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Speaker 2: There are two late life works by Baldwin that I

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Speaker 2: look at. He was asked by Playboy magazine to go

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Speaker 2: to Atlanta and investigate the Atlanta child murders, and the

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Speaker 2: essay that he wrote is kind of rambling. It's not,

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Speaker 2: by any means his most like successful literary work, and

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Speaker 2: there are times in it where he seems to be

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Speaker 2: so daunted and so lost and so hopeless. And at

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Speaker 2: the end of it, he comes back to that question

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Speaker 2: of love again and he says, you know, I think

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Speaker 2: about the church that I grew up in, where we

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Speaker 2: were told to love each other, and he says, whoever

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Speaker 2: else did not believe that I did? And I think

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Speaker 2: about that a lot, you know, in terms of like

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Speaker 2: trying to bridge some of these chasms in our reality

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Speaker 2: at this time. And then I also think about hopefulness

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Speaker 2: in connection with the last work that he was writing

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Speaker 2: at the end of his life, which was a play

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Speaker 2: called The Welcome Table. And you know, Baldwin loved black spirituals,

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Speaker 2: he loved gospel music, he loved the blues. I know

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Speaker 2: that he was referring to, you know, I'm going to

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Speaker 2: sit at the Welcome Table one of these days, which

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Speaker 2: is one of the songs that I learned in the

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Speaker 2: African American Church that rescued me. And the image that

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Speaker 2: he had at the Welcome Table was one that he

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Speaker 2: talked about throughout his life. Someday, he said, you know,

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Speaker 2: and whether that's in this reality, please God or not.

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Speaker 2: But someday we are all going to come to this

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Speaker 2: space where we can sit at the table and we're

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Speaker 2: not going to see those received identities. I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to be a straight white Christian man. I'm going to

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Speaker 2: be a human. I'm going to be a child of God,

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Speaker 2: you know, even as we might put it, and we're

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Speaker 2: going to sit together at the table. All of us

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Speaker 2: are going to sit together at the table, and we're

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Speaker 2: going to be seen and known and loved. And that's

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Speaker 2: a central part of my faith and you know, the

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Speaker 2: crazy thing is that I think it remained a central

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Speaker 2: part of Baldwin's faith even though he fled the organized

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Speaker 2: church as a teenager. Up to the end of his life,

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Speaker 2: He's still believed in that possibility. And you know, I

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Speaker 2: talked about, like, what do I need to get out

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Speaker 2: of bed in the morning. I need to believe in hope,

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Speaker 2: you know, I need to believe that change is possible,

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Speaker 2: that we can do better, and I need to have

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Speaker 2: some pragmatic ways to think about that, which for me

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Speaker 2: is a white man is We've got to do some

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Speaker 2: truth telling. We've got to do some repentance. We've got

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Speaker 2: to create relationships with people who have been marginalized. We've

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Speaker 2: got to learn who they are and learn what they

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Speaker 2: need and how we can move forward, because I mean,

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Speaker 2: another problem that white guys have is that we want

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Speaker 2: to go in and fix things that we don't know

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Speaker 2: anything about. What Baldwin has given me as a person

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Speaker 2: who looks and lives like I do, is all of

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Speaker 2: these thoughts around love and hope and the idea that

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Speaker 2: you know, at the end of the day, we are

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Speaker 2: so much more alike than we are different, and that

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Speaker 2: there is possibility and you know, I believed I believe

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Speaker 2: this so much more strongly when Barack Obama stood on

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Speaker 2: the steps of that Ye do when I look at

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Speaker 2: the Republican debates. But I also just got back from

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Speaker 2: Bill Clinton's Presidential library and I was watching some of

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Speaker 2: the video there and it was I mean, it brought

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Speaker 2: tears to my eyes. Whatever it is you know that

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Speaker 2: you want to say about Bill Clinton, but that that phrase,

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Speaker 2: I still believe in a place called hope. And that's

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Speaker 2: what Baldwin gives me every time I read him, every

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Speaker 2: time I hear his voice, every time I think about him,

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Speaker 2: I hope that we can do and be better.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I will. Well, it was Bill Clinton that

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Speaker 1: said there is nothing that is wrong with America that

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Speaker 1: can't be sixed by what is right by America. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's it, And that is what And that's actually one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite that's one of that's one of my

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Speaker 1: favorites that I that I still I still with my

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Speaker 1: mustard seed of hope that I still hold on to.

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Speaker 1: Greg Garrett, this was such a wonderful conversation, folks. The

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Speaker 1: book is the Gospel according to James Baldwin, and it

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Speaker 1: is out now and I encourage every one to go

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Speaker 1: and get a copy. Greg. I hope that you'll come

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Speaker 1: back and join us again on WOKF.

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Speaker 2: Daniel, I would love that. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 2: our time.

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Speaker 1: That is it for me today. Dear friends on wok

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Speaker 1: F as always power to the people and to all

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Speaker 1: the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.