WEBVTT - To Remember Occupy, Part Two 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:06.240 Welcome Dick had Happened Here a podcast about a crumbling 0:00:06.240 --> 0:00:09.400 empire and planting seeds in the spaces between. Here's part 0:00:09.400 --> 0:00:11.479 two of our interview with Vicky Austin while about the 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:14.520 legacy of Occupy Wall Street. But but you know, like 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:15.960 you were saying, you know, like that that you know, 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:18.000 don't get arrested, it's bad. So I think when Occupy 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:21.200 really started, you know, we were mostly people who had 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:24.599 been educated by the co optation of the civil rights movement, 0:00:24.600 --> 0:00:26.159 which is that it was all non violent and that 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:28.680 the whole thing was getting arrested, and Martin Luther King 0:00:28.720 --> 0:00:30.400 was like the only voice that made any sense and 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:32.440 that was what was affective. Blah blah blah blah blah. Um. 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:34.000 We had all learned that in school, right, We had 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:35.640 all been trained that like non violence was like the 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:37.879 only thing that made sense and that worked. Um. And 0:00:37.920 --> 0:00:39.960 I think like those of us who learned about it 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:42.159 at all in school, which is certainly not everyone, But 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:46.839 like I think, like like the the experience of occupy 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:49.680 of like every day just getting beat up by the 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:54.000 cops every day, like getting attacked, getting arrested. Some people 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:58.760 got really some people got really nihilistically nonviolent, like some 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:01.760 people like really dug in and they're like like like 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:04.120 we're like no, like there is nothing we can do 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:05.800 except be beaten in the turn of this like real 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:11.720 masochistic game. But that happens. That still, Oh yeah, that's 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:14.120 that's one. That's one common response. But another thing that 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:18.000 happened was that people started breaking through that that that ship. People. 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:21.000 People started on the ground. Like I remember a march, 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:23.360 you know, early on, you know, the police would attack 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:25.280 and everyone would sort of like try to de escalate, 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:27.240 and people would try to like you know, like like 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:29.760 talk to the cops or whatever. And like by November 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:31.960 when right before the camps got cleared, I remember being 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:35.480 on a march where we stole all of their orange 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:38.360 betting we're using and you're just holding it over our 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:41.080 head at large and like trapping cops in it. So 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:43.800 like even in New York where things never gotten that intense, 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:46.760 um like in some ways in terms of direct action 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:50.600 like that lesson on the ground, like you have to 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:52.840 be you have to be very ideologically committed to get 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:54.960 hit with the baton three times and still think the 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:56.640 police are on your side. You know, you have to 0:01:56.680 --> 0:01:58.440 like really you have to really be drinking the kool aid, 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:00.320 and some people are like some people really they do 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:02.840 want to believe that. But I think, um, I think 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:07.200 that was one. So during occupy, like those of us 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:10.480 who hated the police were pretty lonely even though the 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:12.840 police were beating us up. But by the end of occupy, 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:15.040 the seeds had really been sown for a lot of 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:20.959 generational understanding of the police that didn't necessarily immediately so 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:23.760 fruit like it wasn't immediately obvious, but I think, like, 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:27.280 I think like folks who stayed in struggle from there 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:30.160 grew more and more anti police. Yeah, that was that 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:32.880 in general, that was well, okay, so my mystres was 0:02:33.120 --> 0:02:36.239 less with occupying more with like the two dozen thirteen 0:02:36.280 --> 0:02:38.080 stuff in Turkey, But it like that that was because 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:40.520 I was brought up in that, like the sort of 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:45.080 like foe Gandhian like yeah, MLK Civilisipians, and then it 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:49.040 was like like I watched Turkey happened and it was like, hey, 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:51.840 here's my friend just like getting his ribs broken by 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:54.160 a cop, and then like there's RaBaD and you know, 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:55.799 and it were bas sort of where with the Egyptian 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:57.320 movement dies and they were bad. They just you know, 0:02:57.320 --> 0:02:59.920 they bring out the machine guns and they just shoot everyone. Yeah, 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:02.360 and at a certain point, like you know, this is 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:04.760 the limited non violence, right is that what happens if 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:09.360 they to shoot you and and Gandhi? You know, if 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:10.960 what if you ever want to like go down to 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:14.320 the Gandhi rabbit hole, like Gandhi like writes this letter 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:18.440 to like like the Jews of Germany where he's telling 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:20.960 them to like throw themselves on the blades of the Nazis, 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:23.640 and it's like this, it's it's this is this is 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:27.320 like yeah, it sucks. This is ridiculous, like just this 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:33.640 is like it's being complacent for abuse. Um Anyonedow Studios 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:37.920 has a really good video on why non violence helps 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:42.440 the state um and how basically activists that try to 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:46.480 force other you know, demonstrators to adhere strictly to non violence, 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:50.880 that's basically that's that's them, and that's them basically saying 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:55.400 that if like that, that's then endorsing the police beating 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:58.120 somebody up like like that. Like that's it's it's not 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:00.920 actually tied to any kind of moving and it doesn't 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:02.960 actually help like I and we could actually see this 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:06.040 last year with like the first few weeks of like 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:08.880 you know, abuse from the state actually making headlines and 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:12.040 actuated changing people. But after a while it just didn't matter. 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:15.480 Like a cop could put someone down and pummel their 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:19.120 face in like August, and like who gives this ship? Nobody, 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:21.920 Like it doesn't it doesn't matter, you know, Like That's 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:24.800 that's why I found it funny when you talked about, like, 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:28.040 you know, people getting mad because cops are like macing 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:29.920 people when they surren into them, And I'm like, if 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:31.880 that happened, no one, no one would give a ship, 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:36.160 Like yeah, well, like I think not at all anymore. Yeah, well, 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:39.440 I think I think part of it is the first 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:43.760 time that you see it, it's like what on earth? 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:46.000 It's like this? This is this I think has been 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:47.320 one of the things that's been the core of the 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:53.680 whole sort of nineteen like late sort of cycle revolutions 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:57.120 is that like if you're just like a dude in 0:04:57.120 --> 0:05:01.280 a grocery store and some guy is in is like 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:03.320 running away from the cops and then like fifteen riot 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:04.640 cops and just start beating the shot out of them, 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:06.560 which is the thing that happens like a lot like 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:09.920 if you just see that, right, there's no way you 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:14.400 can actually, like like if you ordinary person just witness 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:16.520 the cops running up and just being the show of someone, like, 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:19.520 there's no way you can't not be sort of radicalized 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:21.360 against the police by it. But like, yeah, but there's 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:23.920 there's a certain point where you hit it. The decentilization 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:29.480 happens more quickly than what it should. Um, and we 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:32.760 stopped caring. I agree. I agree with both of you 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:35.400 that like that, Like both it is shocking and radicalizing 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:39.440 and we get desensitized because there is so much spectacular 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:43.240 pressure to naturalize the police and non violence ideology as 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:46.000 part of that, as part of naturalizing police violence, right, Like, 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:48.480 there's nothing you can do about the police violence. Um, 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:51.480 So all you can do is control yourself, and therefore 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:53.800 you should you know, you should be better or whatever. Yeah, 0:05:53.800 --> 0:05:56.680 Gandhi had this whole fantasy about, um, the perfect army 0:05:57.080 --> 0:06:00.960 would march unarmed into machine gun fire, um and would 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:03.080 just be mowed down. It's it's he's a fascist, frankly. 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:06.240 Um And And yeah, and you only need to look 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:08.880 at his opinions about black Africans when he was when 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:11.040 he Africa to see that even if you even if 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:14.480 you just read like like even if you just read 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:18.560 like self reliance, it's like this is you know, it's 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:20.440 not everything I want to talk about with with the 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:24.240 peace police though, which is that like they're also like 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:30.240 in terms of like fighting, like inflicting violence on other protesters, 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:33.120 Like they are the most violent, like of of of 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:34.960 the factions you've seen in a pro that does happen 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:39.599 very well, maybe not the most, Like it does happen 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:42.719 like like they beat people up, Like I was just 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:44.800 gonna say, like it ties into like protest security, and 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:48.479 when protest security is usually working with these more like 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:52.200 peace police type organizers, and then they use protest security 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:55.080 to literally beat up people who are doing more radical 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:58.480 action against the state. Um. That happens all the time. Yes, 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:02.039 oh yeah, protest security. When I see protest security or marshals, UM, 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:04.280 I know exactly that that the that we're in a 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:06.680 bad we're in a bad march. Um. The only time 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:10.360 I've ever been physically assaulted by another protester was during 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:13.760 Occupy actually um during after the night after we've been evicted, um, 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:16.920 which is like November fift I think, Um, And if 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:20.280 people don't remember Obama and the FBI coordinated this nationally. 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:22.480 All the occupying encampments got swept within a week of 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:26.440 each other. Um. On that march, Um, we're marching around 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:28.800 even march arount all night, um, and I'm just dragging 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:30.760 a trash can into the street because we're being followed 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:33.680 by police cars, and I'm literally attempting to like do 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:36.080 some education at the same time. I'm like pulling the 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:38.080 trash can in the street, and I'm yelling, you know, 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:40.840 I am doing this because i want to protect us 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:43.080 from police violence. Like if this is in the street, 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:45.360 then the cop cars can't catch us as much. That's 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:47.000 why we build Barakat. I'm like literally trying to like 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:50.040 yell this because, like, you know, because pulling a trac 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:52.440 can the streets incredibly and effective ultimately, So it was 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:54.640 like literally it was literally just like for education purposes 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:56.600 at that point basically anyway, especially since a lot of 0:07:56.600 --> 0:07:58.559 people would like pull them back out of the street. Whatever. 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:01.320 This guy runs up on me and grabs me by 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:03.960 the collar and lifts me up and like threatens me 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:05.600 with this fucking fist, and he says, if my mom 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:09.120 can't get to work tomorrow because of you, like I'll 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:10.600 beat the ship out of it. And we're like we're 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:12.920 marching in Manhattan and like one am, I'm like, what 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:14.880 the hell are you talking about? And like he would 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:16.600 have he would have hurt me, like pretty bad if 0:08:16.640 --> 0:08:18.200 a friend of mine had like luckily had my back 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:20.160 and like de escalated a bit. That's the only time 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:23.000 I've ever been like physically like brought up, like into 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:27.880 a fight um with by by another protester. Was was 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:30.760 a guy insisting that me dragging a trash can into 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:36.720 the street. It was beyond the pale. But I want 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:39.520 to just talk a bit more, but like how systematic 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:43.199 the violence was, like because Okay, so originally I was 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:45.320 gonna try to get someone from Occupy Oaklands to come 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:46.959 talk about this, and I talked to a lot of people, 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:50.040 and the biggest thing that I got was that no 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:52.079 one would talk about it on the record because they 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:54.840 got because Oakland had Oakland had a blacklist. And if 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:58.440 if you were inoccupy and like anyone else found out 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:01.719 about it, like people like people couldn't people spent half 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:05.120 a decade just not being able to find jobs because 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:06.679 they they just play black listed at you one and 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:09.480 like to this day. Like the thing I was told 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:12.040 was like, yeah, I'm I won't talk about this because 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:14.480 you know, like if if I talk about this, like 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:16.600 I will be fired, all of my family everyone around 0:09:16.640 --> 0:09:18.959 me will be fired. And there's like I think, like 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:20.760 this is the everything. But when we talked about sort 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:24.920 of the collapsive occupy, the the extent to which after 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:29.280 Obamba in the f ordered the camps closed. The policy 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:31.600 is that the comps are going to torture anyone who 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:35.880 attempts to like gather in a place yep, yep. For 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:38.000 for two years, you couldn't have a meeting outside without 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:42.240 a police attacking basically, and yeah, um and and yeah, 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:43.840 I mean it was it was you know, I think 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:47.480 like a lot of um, the people who now claim 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:50.319 that that occupy is the reason that they do politics 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:52.760 or whatever for Bernie Sanders or whatever. UM, at the 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:54.560 time they were saying that the reason it collapses because 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:57.800 there was no UM organization. There was no structure, there 0:09:57.840 --> 0:10:00.600 was no political party, there was no you know whatever, 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:03.880 there was no demands. And like it's true that it 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:08.240 was poorly organized, like there's no doubt, UM, but like 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:10.760 we got beat out of the streets, like we got 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:12.800 beat out of the streets, and like people tried for 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:15.680 six months really intensely, and for another six months after 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:18.960 that less intensely to restart that energy. Um. There was 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:21.880 all this works forwards, like a general strike on May Day, um, 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:24.440 two thousand and twelve, which ended up not really working, 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:28.040 which is actually exactly the kind of demand filled one 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:30.280 day of action kind of politics that they were demanding 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:33.520 actually really failed, which I think is telling. But but 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:36.360 in the meantime, like you know, like occupy like Zuccati 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:38.080 got cleared. But for a while, there was the thing 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:40.280 No one remembers this, I don't think, but there was 0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:43.640 a thing up in um uh Union Square. Um, there 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:45.320 was an occupation for three weeks. There was like all 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:47.840 the Union Square freaks um and like a bunch of 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:52.360 occupiers um. And yeah, the cops just like it was 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:55.120 just like batons out on site for a few years 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:56.599 in New York, and I know it was like that 0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:59.920 everywhere else or most everywhere else, and that that came 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:03.160 down from on high that like the police were just like, oh, 0:11:03.200 --> 0:11:05.959 what was dangerous about this was people gathering in public, 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:08.679 So we really need to like we really need to 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:11.720 like enforce the second Amendment being meaningless. Now we really 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:15.280 need to stop meetings from happening in public. Um. And 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:19.000 that violence was super intense and super real, and a 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:21.680 lot of people got beaten out of the movement, you know, 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:23.760 And a lot of people got really demoralized and left. 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:26.880 And I understand why. Um. It was scary and awful, 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:29.560 and there was a lot of repression and um, you know, 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:31.760 and it and it, and it has continued to sort 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:34.760 of that that kind of repression has continued to escalate. UM. 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:38.040 But what has successfully happened in our movements, I think, 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:40.080 to our to our credit, is that we haven't actually 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:45.520 formed the kinds of hierarchical organizations that allow for more 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:48.520 effective police repression. All the police have right now against us, 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:51.400 for the most part is batons in the street. Um. 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:54.120 They have a lot more trouble infiltrating. UM, a lot 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:57.120 more trouble, Which doesn't mean they aren't trying like crazy, 0:11:57.160 --> 0:11:59.280 but they have a lot more trouble um, um taking 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:01.400 down the movements in the in a sort of cointel 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:05.199 pro way, right. Um. The modes of oppression have changed 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:07.800 a bit. UM, But that's also because we don't have 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:10.079 It's a combination of fact that we don't have those 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:12.040 forms of organization, but we also don't have those forms 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:15.360 of organization because they don't emerge spontaneously from our living 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:17.640 conditions like they used to. Um So, I think it's 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:20.079 it's you can't just give credit to any one thing. 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:32.360 There's a lot of different factors that play. I will 0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:34.400 say one of one of the other things that I've noticed, 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:36.079 and I think, I think, I'm pretty sure this happened 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:38.160 to talk people are talking about that occupies. It like 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:39.800 the first thing if you have a group of people 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:41.560 who are just they're the first thing the cops trying 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:43.959 to do is a point a leader so that they 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:45.520 have one person that they can do so and this 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:47.079 and this lets them sort of this this sort of 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:49.240 like access point to which they sort of break like 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:51.280 the demands of the crowd is that they find one 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:52.679 person they point in the lead and they get that 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:55.720 person to sort of like be the liaison. My favorite 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:58.000 Occupied joke, I gotta give respect to Occupied Denver. This 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:00.120 is the best joke that ever happened. And Occupy they 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:02.360 announced the beginning of one week on Friday, we are 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:04.840 going to announce our leader, Occupy Denver has chosen a 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:07.280 leader and the whole movement got so upset and everyone 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:09.240 was so angry. I was like, what the fuck? And 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:11.120 then like they had this like big press conference and 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:14.800 their leader was a golden retriever. It was like a 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:19.240 who knows to occupied Denver? Whoever organs that prank? I 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:23.160 love you, I guess, yeah, speaking thinking of kudos to 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:25.280 a place. The last thing I wanted to talk about 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:31.080 was the giant like port occupation strike thing in Oakland, 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:34.160 because I mean that that wasn't the first time people 0:13:34.160 --> 0:13:35.240 had done it, Like I know, I know during the 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:38.000 anti war movements even do like a thousand seven eight, 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:42.480 there's once people trying to occupy ports. But in Oakland 0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:45.120 they like did it. They really they put like forty 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:48.680 thousand people like in this in the port of Oakland 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:51.520 and they shut it down. And I think that was 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:54.839 like that was one of the things one of the 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:59.280 stories kind of been lost from this because like you know, 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:01.000 like that was the point. Like so like I know 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:04.120 people in Oakland who like they got like drugged repeatedly 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:08.520 drugged by police informants because particularly Oakland. Also Oakland is 0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:11.240 also way the walk by ok Bood is way way 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:15.200 less white than any other movements and they get like 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:19.680 the kind of police oppression they get is like it's 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:23.160 just like yeah, you know again like people people being 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:27.960 repeatedly drugged by informants, like cops shooting people in the face, 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:30.680 like the you know, you have you have the black list, 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:32.720 you have all this stuff. And I think, you know, 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:35.720 part of it yeah, yeah, And I think part of 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:37.480 it is because part of it's because it's a bunch 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:39.520 of non white people and that's you know, that's just 0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:43.280 what happens. But I think another part of it was 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:50.480 also that there was this fear about Yes, so so 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:52.480 the reason the poor strike is able to happen is 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:56.080 because there's sort of there's a complicated game here where 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:58.760 the people like sort of got involved in in like 0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:04.160 longshoreman union politics. But that sort of like fusion of 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:06.200 of you have all the people in the street and 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:09.760 then they start shining down ports and that like like 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:13.480 the cops like lose their minds over that. Like that 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:18.160 that I think was like extremely scary to them in 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:21.240 a lot of wiz Yeah, I mean, you know, I 0:15:21.720 --> 0:15:23.760 would you know, I would defer to anyone from Oakland 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:25.200 who was who was there during that you know, I 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:27.080 have comrades there. I've talked to you have read about 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:29.400 it since. But you know, I think I think part 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:32.360 of the heightened police oppression and the heightened power of 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:35.360 the Oakland occupied Oakland folks was Oscar Grant rebellion. Like 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:37.320 I mentioned the two thousand nine which had happened, which 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:38.960 had you know, I have been a few hundred people, 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:40.920 but it had been really rowdy. They'd been like looting 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:43.680 and smashing. Um. Maybe maybe more than a few hundred. 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:45.120 Maybe y're a thousand people on the big on the 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:48.480 first night. Um. And you also obviously have the legacy 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:50.240 of the Black Panthers in Oakland, so you know, the 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:52.920 Black Panther Party, you know, forms in Oakland at last 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:54.800 in Oakland a decade and a half longer than it 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:57.080 does anywhere else in the country. Um. So there's a 0:15:57.120 --> 0:15:59.360 lot of like And you also have the really really 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:01.680 intense touch ocase in the Bay that's happening. So there's 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:04.760 an incredible political and economic pressure in the Bay combined 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:08.280 with this history of radicalism that really you know, um, 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:10.760 but yeah, I think also the other thing that's really interesting. 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:12.560 I think what you said, like you you put your 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:14.280 you know, you hit the nail on the head, Like 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:16.480 it was largely like it was terrifying that it was 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:18.880 the most effective direct action in the occupy movement I 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:21.080 think was that port shutdown. I think, without a doubt, 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:24.880 like the biggest mass direct action that that occupy achieved, um, 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:26.880 was that November twelve. Was that was that with the 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:29.320 data that I don't remember near the end of the 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:32.920 near the end of the cycle. Um. And I think 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:37.000 like the other thing about um about that though, that 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:39.320 that was very similar to the altar globalization movement, right 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:41.520 where the unions had sort of teamed up with you know, 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:43.440 like in Seattle, there's a lot of trade unions on 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:45.560 the ground next to all the black blocks, right, um. 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:49.280 And I think like that that image, Um, I think 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:52.120 really it's really interesting. It really terrified the police, and 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:54.800 it really it could be it could have been a 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:58.320 vector for a certain kind of like labor first politics 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:00.840 that could have emerged. But instead the labor first people 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:03.280 have turned out to be all electoralists. Yeah, it seems 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:07.080 that that's sort of a weird blip that hasn't really returned. Um. Yeah. 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:10.359 And it's interesting too because like because now like you know, 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:12.359 like the the the A F l C. I oh, 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:14.760 just like you know a f l C. A is 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:16.480 like no cop unions great, And it's like there's this 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:20.800 there's this sort of like split between the street movements 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:26.000 and organized labor because they're off doing like electoral stuff 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:29.400 and like cops ship which is this sort of yeah, 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:32.000 and and and and have been now for for seven decades, 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:34.080 you know, I mean, I mean really like like the 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:37.240 buying off of the unions and the New Deal, um, 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:39.360 you know, with some brief you know, with brief windows 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:42.360 of like wildcat action in the seventies and the nineties. Um, 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:44.159 the buying off of the unions has has never really 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:46.640 gone away. Industrial unionism in the US has has long 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:50.040 been and in and in Europe everywhere where everywhere where 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:52.720 those developed in the early twenty century, that labor movement, Um, 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:55.480 they've really been successfully bought off. And I don't think 0:17:56.760 --> 0:17:59.679 there is I don't think that those unions are like 0:17:59.840 --> 0:18:02.600 a big easy route to power anymore than I don't 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:04.479 I don't like, I don't think they're going to overthrow 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:06.199 the government. I mean, but I will say, yeah, this 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:08.080 is this is my my also my the thing that 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:09.680 I plug every time is at the A F l 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:12.560 c I O over through a end a like yeah, 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:14.760 like like they they they're there are people on the 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:19.040 ground were like directing like like we're we're directing a 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:21.239 bunch of the anti Allende stuff. And it's like and 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:23.119 it was the and it was the Union bureaucracies, like 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:25.520 more recently in two thousand one, who are in the 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:29.800 wake of September eleventh, who transformed the anti globalization rhetoric 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:32.880 into buy American, which it turned out was often buying 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:35.760 prison made materials. But like that was that was the Union. 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:39.440 The Union sort of um defanged the defanged alter globalization 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:41.520 into buy American. And there's there's a thing, like there's 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:44.600 a whole another story there about how that like how 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:48.840 anti globalization turned from like you know, the Zapatistas to 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:54.359 like Trump, which is incredibly depressing, and yeah, goes goes 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:58.320 through this line of sort of like the replacement of 0:18:58.320 --> 0:19:01.600 internationalism with nationalism and that kind of like by local 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:07.480 stuff and the fact that like these people sort of 0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:11.160 just decided that you know personally after Seattle part left 0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:13.440 not eleven, they're just like we're not doing direct action again. 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:17.080 And in Oakland's like Oakland's likes like that that's like, 0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:20.359 that's like the one big exception to that was that moment, 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:22.880 and then it just kind of just has never happened again. 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:26.200 And that's partially because that that union that I LW 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:28.879