1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: Welcome Dick had Happened Here a podcast about a crumbling 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 1: empire and planting seeds in the spaces between. Here's part 3 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:11,479 Speaker 1: two of our interview with Vicky Austin while about the 4 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: legacy of Occupy Wall Street. But but you know, like 5 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: you were saying, you know, like that that you know, 6 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: don't get arrested, it's bad. So I think when Occupy 7 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: really started, you know, we were mostly people who had 8 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 1: been educated by the co optation of the civil rights movement, 9 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:26,159 Speaker 1: which is that it was all non violent and that 10 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: the whole thing was getting arrested, and Martin Luther King 11 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: was like the only voice that made any sense and 12 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: that was what was affective. Blah blah blah blah blah. Um. 13 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: We had all learned that in school, right, We had 14 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: all been trained that like non violence was like the 15 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:37,879 Speaker 1: only thing that made sense and that worked. Um. And 16 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: I think like those of us who learned about it 17 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 1: at all in school, which is certainly not everyone, But 18 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 1: like I think, like like the the experience of occupy 19 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: of like every day just getting beat up by the 20 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: cops every day, like getting attacked, getting arrested. Some people 21 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: got really some people got really nihilistically nonviolent, like some 22 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: people like really dug in and they're like like like 23 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: we're like no, like there is nothing we can do 24 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: except be beaten in the turn of this like real 25 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: masochistic game. But that happens. That still, Oh yeah, that's 26 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: that's one. That's one common response. But another thing that 27 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: happened was that people started breaking through that that that ship. People. 28 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: People started on the ground. Like I remember a march, 29 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: you know, early on, you know, the police would attack 30 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: and everyone would sort of like try to de escalate, 31 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: and people would try to like you know, like like 32 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 1: talk to the cops or whatever. And like by November 33 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 1: when right before the camps got cleared, I remember being 34 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 1: on a march where we stole all of their orange 35 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: betting we're using and you're just holding it over our 36 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: head at large and like trapping cops in it. So 37 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: like even in New York where things never gotten that intense, 38 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: um like in some ways in terms of direct action 39 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: like that lesson on the ground, like you have to 40 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: be you have to be very ideologically committed to get 41 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: hit with the baton three times and still think the 42 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: police are on your side. You know, you have to 43 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: like really you have to really be drinking the kool aid, 44 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: and some people are like some people really they do 45 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: want to believe that. But I think, um, I think 46 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: that was one. So during occupy, like those of us 47 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: who hated the police were pretty lonely even though the 48 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: police were beating us up. But by the end of occupy, 49 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: the seeds had really been sown for a lot of 50 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:20,959 Speaker 1: generational understanding of the police that didn't necessarily immediately so 51 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: fruit like it wasn't immediately obvious, but I think, like, 52 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: I think like folks who stayed in struggle from there 53 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: grew more and more anti police. Yeah, that was that 54 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: in general, that was well, okay, so my mystres was 55 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,239 Speaker 1: less with occupying more with like the two dozen thirteen 56 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 1: stuff in Turkey, But it like that that was because 57 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 1: I was brought up in that, like the sort of 58 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 1: like foe Gandhian like yeah, MLK Civilisipians, and then it 59 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: was like like I watched Turkey happened and it was like, hey, 60 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 1: here's my friend just like getting his ribs broken by 61 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: a cop, and then like there's RaBaD and you know, 62 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:55,799 Speaker 1: and it were bas sort of where with the Egyptian 63 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: movement dies and they were bad. They just you know, 64 00:02:57,320 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 1: they bring out the machine guns and they just shoot everyone. Yeah, 65 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: and at a certain point, like you know, this is 66 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: the limited non violence, right is that what happens if 67 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 1: they to shoot you and and Gandhi? You know, if 68 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 1: what if you ever want to like go down to 69 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: the Gandhi rabbit hole, like Gandhi like writes this letter 70 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: to like like the Jews of Germany where he's telling 71 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 1: them to like throw themselves on the blades of the Nazis, 72 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 1: and it's like this, it's it's this is this is 73 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: like yeah, it sucks. This is ridiculous, like just this 74 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 1: is like it's being complacent for abuse. Um Anyonedow Studios 75 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: has a really good video on why non violence helps 76 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: the state um and how basically activists that try to 77 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: force other you know, demonstrators to adhere strictly to non violence, 78 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: that's basically that's that's them, and that's them basically saying 79 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: that if like that, that's then endorsing the police beating 80 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: somebody up like like that. Like that's it's it's not 81 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: actually tied to any kind of moving and it doesn't 82 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: actually help like I and we could actually see this 83 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: last year with like the first few weeks of like 84 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: you know, abuse from the state actually making headlines and 85 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: actuated changing people. But after a while it just didn't matter. 86 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: Like a cop could put someone down and pummel their 87 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: face in like August, and like who gives this ship? Nobody, 88 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 1: Like it doesn't it doesn't matter, you know, Like That's 89 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: that's why I found it funny when you talked about, like, 90 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 1: you know, people getting mad because cops are like macing 91 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 1: people when they surren into them, And I'm like, if 92 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: that happened, no one, no one would give a ship, 93 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 1: Like yeah, well, like I think not at all anymore. Yeah, well, 94 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: I think I think part of it is the first 95 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 1: time that you see it, it's like what on earth? 96 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: It's like this? This is this I think has been 97 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: one of the things that's been the core of the 98 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: whole sort of nineteen like late sort of cycle revolutions 99 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: is that like if you're just like a dude in 100 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,280 Speaker 1: a grocery store and some guy is in is like 101 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: running away from the cops and then like fifteen riot 102 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: cops and just start beating the shot out of them, 103 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 1: which is the thing that happens like a lot like 104 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 1: if you just see that, right, there's no way you 105 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: can actually, like like if you ordinary person just witness 106 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: the cops running up and just being the show of someone, like, 107 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: there's no way you can't not be sort of radicalized 108 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 1: against the police by it. But like, yeah, but there's 109 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 1: there's a certain point where you hit it. The decentilization 110 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 1: happens more quickly than what it should. Um, and we 111 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: stopped caring. I agree. I agree with both of you 112 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: that like that, Like both it is shocking and radicalizing 113 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: and we get desensitized because there is so much spectacular 114 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: pressure to naturalize the police and non violence ideology as 115 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: part of that, as part of naturalizing police violence, right, Like, 116 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 1: there's nothing you can do about the police violence. Um, 117 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: So all you can do is control yourself, and therefore 118 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: you should you know, you should be better or whatever. Yeah, 119 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: Gandhi had this whole fantasy about, um, the perfect army 120 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: would march unarmed into machine gun fire, um and would 121 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 1: just be mowed down. It's it's he's a fascist, frankly. 122 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: Um And And yeah, and you only need to look 123 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: at his opinions about black Africans when he was when 124 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,040 Speaker 1: he Africa to see that even if you even if 125 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 1: you just read like like even if you just read 126 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: like self reliance, it's like this is you know, it's 127 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: not everything I want to talk about with with the 128 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: peace police though, which is that like they're also like 129 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: in terms of like fighting, like inflicting violence on other protesters, 130 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: Like they are the most violent, like of of of 131 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: the factions you've seen in a pro that does happen 132 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: very well, maybe not the most, Like it does happen 133 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 1: like like they beat people up, Like I was just 134 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: gonna say, like it ties into like protest security, and 135 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,479 Speaker 1: when protest security is usually working with these more like 136 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: peace police type organizers, and then they use protest security 137 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: to literally beat up people who are doing more radical 138 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:58,480 Speaker 1: action against the state. Um. That happens all the time. Yes, 139 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:02,039 Speaker 1: oh yeah, protest security. When I see protest security or marshals, UM, 140 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:04,280 Speaker 1: I know exactly that that the that we're in a 141 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: bad we're in a bad march. Um. The only time 142 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 1: I've ever been physically assaulted by another protester was during 143 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: Occupy actually um during after the night after we've been evicted, um, 144 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 1: which is like November fift I think, Um, And if 145 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: people don't remember Obama and the FBI coordinated this nationally. 146 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: All the occupying encampments got swept within a week of 147 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: each other. Um. On that march, Um, we're marching around 148 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: even march arount all night, um, and I'm just dragging 149 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: a trash can into the street because we're being followed 150 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 1: by police cars, and I'm literally attempting to like do 151 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 1: some education at the same time. I'm like pulling the 152 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: trash can in the street, and I'm yelling, you know, 153 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: I am doing this because i want to protect us 154 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: from police violence. Like if this is in the street, 155 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 1: then the cop cars can't catch us as much. That's 156 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: why we build Barakat. I'm like literally trying to like 157 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: yell this because, like, you know, because pulling a trac 158 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: can the streets incredibly and effective ultimately, So it was 159 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: like literally it was literally just like for education purposes 160 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: at that point basically anyway, especially since a lot of 161 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:58,559 Speaker 1: people would like pull them back out of the street. Whatever. 162 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: This guy runs up on me and grabs me by 163 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: the collar and lifts me up and like threatens me 164 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: with this fucking fist, and he says, if my mom 165 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: can't get to work tomorrow because of you, like I'll 166 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: beat the ship out of it. And we're like we're 167 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: marching in Manhattan and like one am, I'm like, what 168 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: the hell are you talking about? And like he would 169 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: have he would have hurt me, like pretty bad if 170 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: a friend of mine had like luckily had my back 171 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: and like de escalated a bit. That's the only time 172 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: I've ever been like physically like brought up, like into 173 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: a fight um with by by another protester. Was was 174 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: a guy insisting that me dragging a trash can into 175 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: the street. It was beyond the pale. But I want 176 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: to just talk a bit more, but like how systematic 177 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:43,199 Speaker 1: the violence was, like because Okay, so originally I was 178 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: gonna try to get someone from Occupy Oaklands to come 179 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:46,959 Speaker 1: talk about this, and I talked to a lot of people, 180 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: and the biggest thing that I got was that no 181 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 1: one would talk about it on the record because they 182 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 1: got because Oakland had Oakland had a blacklist. And if 183 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 1: if you were inoccupy and like anyone else found out 184 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,719 Speaker 1: about it, like people like people couldn't people spent half 185 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: a decade just not being able to find jobs because 186 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 1: they they just play black listed at you one and 187 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: like to this day. Like the thing I was told 188 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: was like, yeah, I'm I won't talk about this because 189 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: you know, like if if I talk about this, like 190 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: I will be fired, all of my family everyone around 191 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:18,959 Speaker 1: me will be fired. And there's like I think, like 192 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: this is the everything. But when we talked about sort 193 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: of the collapsive occupy, the the extent to which after 194 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: Obamba in the f ordered the camps closed. The policy 195 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 1: is that the comps are going to torture anyone who 196 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 1: attempts to like gather in a place yep, yep. For 197 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: for two years, you couldn't have a meeting outside without 198 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: a police attacking basically, and yeah, um and and yeah, 199 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 1: I mean it was it was you know, I think 200 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: like a lot of um, the people who now claim 201 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,319 Speaker 1: that that occupy is the reason that they do politics 202 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: or whatever for Bernie Sanders or whatever. UM, at the 203 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: time they were saying that the reason it collapses because 204 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 1: there was no UM organization. There was no structure, there 205 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: was no political party, there was no you know whatever, 206 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: there was no demands. And like it's true that it 207 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: was poorly organized, like there's no doubt, UM, but like 208 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: we got beat out of the streets, like we got 209 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: beat out of the streets, and like people tried for 210 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 1: six months really intensely, and for another six months after 211 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: that less intensely to restart that energy. Um. There was 212 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: all this works forwards, like a general strike on May Day, um, 213 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 1: two thousand and twelve, which ended up not really working, 214 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: which is actually exactly the kind of demand filled one 215 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: day of action kind of politics that they were demanding 216 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: actually really failed, which I think is telling. But but 217 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: in the meantime, like you know, like occupy like Zuccati 218 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 1: got cleared. But for a while, there was the thing 219 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: No one remembers this, I don't think, but there was 220 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: a thing up in um uh Union Square. Um, there 221 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 1: was an occupation for three weeks. There was like all 222 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: the Union Square freaks um and like a bunch of 223 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: occupiers um. And yeah, the cops just like it was 224 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: just like batons out on site for a few years 225 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:56,599 Speaker 1: in New York, and I know it was like that 226 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: everywhere else or most everywhere else, and that that came 227 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: down from on high that like the police were just like, oh, 228 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,959 Speaker 1: what was dangerous about this was people gathering in public, 229 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:08,679 Speaker 1: So we really need to like we really need to 230 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: like enforce the second Amendment being meaningless. Now we really 231 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: need to stop meetings from happening in public. Um. And 232 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: that violence was super intense and super real, and a 233 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: lot of people got beaten out of the movement, you know, 234 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: And a lot of people got really demoralized and left. 235 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: And I understand why. Um. It was scary and awful, 236 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 1: and there was a lot of repression and um, you know, 237 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: and it and it, and it has continued to sort 238 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: of that that kind of repression has continued to escalate. UM. 239 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: But what has successfully happened in our movements, I think, 240 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 1: to our to our credit, is that we haven't actually 241 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: formed the kinds of hierarchical organizations that allow for more 242 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: effective police repression. All the police have right now against us, 243 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: for the most part is batons in the street. Um. 244 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: They have a lot more trouble infiltrating. UM, a lot 245 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: more trouble, Which doesn't mean they aren't trying like crazy, 246 00:11:57,160 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: but they have a lot more trouble um, um taking 247 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: down the movements in the in a sort of cointel 248 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,199 Speaker 1: pro way, right. Um. The modes of oppression have changed 249 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: a bit. UM, But that's also because we don't have 250 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:10,079 Speaker 1: It's a combination of fact that we don't have those 251 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: forms of organization, but we also don't have those forms 252 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: of organization because they don't emerge spontaneously from our living 253 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: conditions like they used to. Um So, I think it's 254 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,079 Speaker 1: it's you can't just give credit to any one thing. 255 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: There's a lot of different factors that play. I will 256 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: say one of one of the other things that I've noticed, 257 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:36,079 Speaker 1: and I think, I think, I'm pretty sure this happened 258 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: to talk people are talking about that occupies. It like 259 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: the first thing if you have a group of people 260 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 1: who are just they're the first thing the cops trying 261 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:43,959 Speaker 1: to do is a point a leader so that they 262 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: have one person that they can do so and this 263 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:47,079 Speaker 1: and this lets them sort of this this sort of 264 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: like access point to which they sort of break like 265 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: the demands of the crowd is that they find one 266 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:52,679 Speaker 1: person they point in the lead and they get that 267 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 1: person to sort of like be the liaison. My favorite 268 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: Occupied joke, I gotta give respect to Occupied Denver. This 269 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 1: is the best joke that ever happened. And Occupy they 270 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: announced the beginning of one week on Friday, we are 271 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 1: going to announce our leader, Occupy Denver has chosen a 272 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: leader and the whole movement got so upset and everyone 273 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: was so angry. I was like, what the fuck? And 274 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: then like they had this like big press conference and 275 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: their leader was a golden retriever. It was like a 276 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: who knows to occupied Denver? Whoever organs that prank? I 277 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: love you, I guess, yeah, speaking thinking of kudos to 278 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: a place. The last thing I wanted to talk about 279 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: was the giant like port occupation strike thing in Oakland, 280 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: because I mean that that wasn't the first time people 281 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: had done it, Like I know, I know during the 282 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 1: anti war movements even do like a thousand seven eight, 283 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: there's once people trying to occupy ports. But in Oakland 284 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: they like did it. They really they put like forty 285 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 1: thousand people like in this in the port of Oakland 286 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: and they shut it down. And I think that was 287 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:54,839 Speaker 1: like that was one of the things one of the 288 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: stories kind of been lost from this because like you know, 289 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: like that was the point. Like so like I know 290 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: people in Oakland who like they got like drugged repeatedly 291 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: drugged by police informants because particularly Oakland. Also Oakland is 292 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: also way the walk by ok Bood is way way 293 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 1: less white than any other movements and they get like 294 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: the kind of police oppression they get is like it's 295 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: just like yeah, you know again like people people being 296 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: repeatedly drugged by informants, like cops shooting people in the face, 297 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: like the you know, you have you have the black list, 298 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: you have all this stuff. And I think, you know, 299 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: part of it yeah, yeah, And I think part of 300 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: it is because part of it's because it's a bunch 301 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: of non white people and that's you know, that's just 302 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: what happens. But I think another part of it was 303 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: also that there was this fear about Yes, so so 304 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 1: the reason the poor strike is able to happen is 305 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 1: because there's sort of there's a complicated game here where 306 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: the people like sort of got involved in in like 307 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: longshoreman union politics. But that sort of like fusion of 308 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: of you have all the people in the street and 309 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: then they start shining down ports and that like like 310 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: the cops like lose their minds over that. Like that 311 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: that I think was like extremely scary to them in 312 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: a lot of wiz Yeah, I mean, you know, I 313 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: would you know, I would defer to anyone from Oakland 314 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: who was who was there during that you know, I 315 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: have comrades there. I've talked to you have read about 316 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: it since. But you know, I think I think part 317 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: of the heightened police oppression and the heightened power of 318 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: the Oakland occupied Oakland folks was Oscar Grant rebellion. Like 319 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: I mentioned the two thousand nine which had happened, which 320 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: had you know, I have been a few hundred people, 321 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: but it had been really rowdy. They'd been like looting 322 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: and smashing. Um. Maybe maybe more than a few hundred. 323 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 1: Maybe y're a thousand people on the big on the 324 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 1: first night. Um. And you also obviously have the legacy 325 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: of the Black Panthers in Oakland, so you know, the 326 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: Black Panther Party, you know, forms in Oakland at last 327 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: in Oakland a decade and a half longer than it 328 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: does anywhere else in the country. Um. So there's a 329 00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: lot of like And you also have the really really 330 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: intense touch ocase in the Bay that's happening. So there's 331 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: an incredible political and economic pressure in the Bay combined 332 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: with this history of radicalism that really you know, um, 333 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: but yeah, I think also the other thing that's really interesting. 334 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: I think what you said, like you you put your 335 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: you know, you hit the nail on the head, Like 336 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: it was largely like it was terrifying that it was 337 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: the most effective direct action in the occupy movement I 338 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: think was that port shutdown. I think, without a doubt, 339 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: like the biggest mass direct action that that occupy achieved, um, 340 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: was that November twelve. Was that was that with the 341 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: data that I don't remember near the end of the 342 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: near the end of the cycle. Um. And I think 343 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 1: like the other thing about um about that though, that 344 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: that was very similar to the altar globalization movement, right 345 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: where the unions had sort of teamed up with you know, 346 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: like in Seattle, there's a lot of trade unions on 347 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: the ground next to all the black blocks, right, um. 348 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: And I think like that that image, Um, I think 349 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: really it's really interesting. It really terrified the police, and 350 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 1: it really it could be it could have been a 351 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: vector for a certain kind of like labor first politics 352 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 1: that could have emerged. But instead the labor first people 353 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: have turned out to be all electoralists. Yeah, it seems 354 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: that that's sort of a weird blip that hasn't really returned. Um. Yeah. 355 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 1: And it's interesting too because like because now like you know, 356 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: like the the the A F l C. I oh, 357 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: just like you know a f l C. A is 358 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: like no cop unions great, And it's like there's this 359 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: there's this sort of like split between the street movements 360 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: and organized labor because they're off doing like electoral stuff 361 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,400 Speaker 1: and like cops ship which is this sort of yeah, 362 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: and and and and have been now for for seven decades, 363 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I mean really like like the 364 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 1: buying off of the unions and the New Deal, um, 365 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,360 Speaker 1: you know, with some brief you know, with brief windows 366 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:42,360 Speaker 1: of like wildcat action in the seventies and the nineties. Um, 367 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 1: the buying off of the unions has has never really 368 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:46,640 Speaker 1: gone away. Industrial unionism in the US has has long 369 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: been and in and in Europe everywhere where everywhere where 370 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: those developed in the early twenty century, that labor movement, Um, 371 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: they've really been successfully bought off. And I don't think 372 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 1: there is I don't think that those unions are like 373 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: a big easy route to power anymore than I don't 374 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:04,479 Speaker 1: I don't like, I don't think they're going to overthrow 375 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,199 Speaker 1: the government. I mean, but I will say, yeah, this 376 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: is this is my my also my the thing that 377 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:09,680 Speaker 1: I plug every time is at the A F l 378 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: c I O over through a end a like yeah, 379 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 1: like like they they they're there are people on the 380 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: ground were like directing like like we're we're directing a 381 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,239 Speaker 1: bunch of the anti Allende stuff. And it's like and 382 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 1: it was the and it was the Union bureaucracies, like 383 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: more recently in two thousand one, who are in the 384 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: wake of September eleventh, who transformed the anti globalization rhetoric 385 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,880 Speaker 1: into buy American, which it turned out was often buying 386 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: prison made materials. But like that was that was the Union. 387 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 1: The Union sort of um defanged the defanged alter globalization 388 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: into buy American. And there's there's a thing, like there's 389 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: a whole another story there about how that like how 390 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: anti globalization turned from like you know, the Zapatistas to 391 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 1: like Trump, which is incredibly depressing, and yeah, goes goes 392 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: through this line of sort of like the replacement of 393 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: internationalism with nationalism and that kind of like by local 394 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: stuff and the fact that like these people sort of 395 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:11,160 Speaker 1: just decided that you know personally after Seattle part left 396 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 1: not eleven, they're just like we're not doing direct action again. 397 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: And in Oakland's like Oakland's likes like that that's like, 398 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: that's like the one big exception to that was that moment, 399 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:22,880 Speaker 1: and then it just kind of just has never happened again. 400 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 1: And that's partially because that that union that I LW 401 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 1: is I l W I think out there is on 402 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,360 Speaker 1: the on the boards that was a particularly like radical 403 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: union that had happened in Wildcats like and and was 404 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: like like more democratic than any of the many of 405 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 1: the other unions and in in those those hips. But 406 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 1: uh yeah, but that's that's also like a big story 407 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: for another time. Obviously. The connotation of global anti globalization 408 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: over the twenty year period, Yeah, you know, it's a 409 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:01,679 Speaker 1: out of corny, but like what what can we actually 410 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 1: learn from what happened there? What went wrong and sort 411 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: of what the limits of it was? Yeah, okay, So 412 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 1: the legacy, So I think one legacy that um, the 413 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 1: legacy that is most widely accepted and known, which we 414 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 1: can go over quickly, is that it reintroduced class discourse, 415 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: largely into the popular you know then, which is a 416 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: very very bad class politics. But like you know, like um, 417 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 1: like the you know, it reintroduced some of that sort 418 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:35,399 Speaker 1: of class war class war discourse and um, and I 419 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: think more important than that, but but not that dissimilar. 420 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: It UM reintroduced UM street politics into the US. UM. 421 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 1: I think part of the legacy that gets forgotten UM 422 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 1: because like the general the global nous of the wave 423 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: gets forgotten as well. Like is that when when ship 424 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 1: pops off in New York, everyone in the world knows, 425 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:00,680 Speaker 1: or at least they did then, right because America had 426 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: been so successfully you know, appeased politically for so long 427 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 1: that I think that when occupy popped off UM in 428 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 1: rather it really like signals to the world, like the 429 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 1: rest of the world like, oh, like this is real, 430 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:15,640 Speaker 1: like even in the you know, even in the center 431 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 1: of empire, like like people are rising up. UM. It's 432 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 1: hard to remember and it's weird, but like there was 433 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,120 Speaker 1: an occupy in UH New York, in a UK, there 434 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 1: was one in Tel Aviv. There was actually kind of 435 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: like a pro Palestinian occupy in Tel Aviv briefly UM. 436 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:31,880 Speaker 1: And you know, I think maybe the most powerful sort 437 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:36,120 Speaker 1: of immediate tactical UM offshoot of occupied was occupyed Nigeria UM. 438 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: In the first weeks of UM when President good Luck 439 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 1: Jonathan UM took took the fuel subsidies away and they 440 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 1: were like sort of two weeks of really intense revolutionary 441 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,359 Speaker 1: rioting um in in Nigeria that that then called themselves 442 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:52,400 Speaker 1: Occupy as a way of being legible to the rest 443 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 1: of the world. Um. I think the other legacies though 444 00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: that are that are a little more sort of subtle, 445 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: I guess is like that a lot of folks still 446 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: in the struggle now, Like I will still meet people, 447 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 1: you know, my age, who like I've met I have 448 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 1: two comrades here in Philly who I didn't know at 449 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:10,439 Speaker 1: the time, but who were organizing in New York, right, 450 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: Like we probably hung out in rooms together, like we 451 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:14,360 Speaker 1: probably like we were probably in the same space as 452 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 1: But like, so like a lot of folks, you know it, 453 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 1: each of these waves that has come has left, you know, 454 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: some people leave, some people swing right, but like there's 455 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 1: a residue of folks that like becomes the base for 456 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: the next movement. And I think like Occupy really did 457 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,919 Speaker 1: provide a lot of people in a way that the 458 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: gap between alter globalization and Occupy didn't produce nearly as 459 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:37,719 Speaker 1: large a contingent of people, although of course there are 460 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 1: those people. UM. But I think also like really importantly, 461 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 1: like the tactics of occupy. Like one of the things 462 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: that was incredible about the George Floyd uprising was that 463 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: every tactic that we UM have tried in the last 464 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 1: ten years re emerged. Right. There was a prison strike, 465 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: there were indigenous blockades, there were me Too style callouts UM, 466 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 1: which of course developed out of UM punk and queer 467 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 1: scene call outs that have been going on for a decade. 468 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 1: But there were occupations, right, you had the chairs in Seattle, 469 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:10,120 Speaker 1: which we can you know, well, well what we're Yeah, 470 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: we will get to that one day in any case, 471 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 1: in any case, like I think like that that has 472 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: remained in the repertoire of poltarian struggle, like as a 473 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:22,239 Speaker 1: result of of occupy and and and if it had 474 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 1: just been occupied, maybe it wouldn't be as a result 475 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 1: of the global movement of the squares, which obviously goes 476 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 1: until Terrier Square and Turkey. I think it's probably the 477 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: Gezi Park in a Turkey UM, which is like the 478 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 1: last big moment of the squares really UM, but that 479 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: five year wave like it was really really important, UM globally, 480 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 1: really really important locally as well, UM in terms of 481 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: building activists, building a class of of well I don't 482 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,120 Speaker 1: you know whatever, building revolutionaries whatever you want to call them, 483 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: the good version of the thing, not the bad version. 484 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: You produced a lot of them, um and um, And 485 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: I think like in terms of its limits and like 486 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: what we can learn from it, Like, I think, I 487 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 1: think taking the police more seriously it was really important. 488 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 1: I think taking police violence more seriously was a really 489 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:10,680 Speaker 1: important legacy of occupy. I think, Um, I think pushing 490 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: towards the limit of what total democracy meant. A lot 491 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 1: of people and Occupy remember that like a lot of 492 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 1: Ron Paul people are like weirdo like and the Fed 493 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: cranks and like right wingers like spoken Occupy and like that. 494 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 1: That that total open populism of of occupy I think 495 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: was both probably its greatest strength and its ultimate limit, right, 496 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 1: which was that like it was never going to be 497 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: able to really like sharpen itself into the into the knife, 498 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:37,919 Speaker 1: and it wanted to be to like really change the 499 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 1: face of global capital or whatever, um because of because 500 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: there were so many white, yeah, middle class and like 501 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:47,919 Speaker 1: like a bunch of the like a lot of the 502 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: like the current for right media people came out like 503 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: Center Fairbanks was like an Occupy streamer, Simpool Yeah, you're 504 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 1: welcome for tim Poole. UMO was filming on the last day, 505 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 1: a bunch of us um doing some things and Timpoole 506 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 1: did not manage to continue filming, is all I'll say. 507 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,120 Speaker 1: And after that is when he started swinging right, So 508 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:14,119 Speaker 1: you're welcome over. Um anyway, Sorry, that guy is a 509 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: fucking asshole. He was an asshole then. Though. I think 510 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: what's important to know is that a lot of these 511 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: people were suss as hell back then to occupy folks, 512 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 1: like they were around and occupy because of the nature 513 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 1: of occupy, like but like they were, we already didn't 514 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: like them, you know, like a lot of these people 515 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,680 Speaker 1: were already unpopular. We're already disliked in the movement. Um. 516 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: So yeah, um, but yeah, I think I think so. 517 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: I think you know, there is there there are all 518 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: these different legacies um from it that I think, um, ultimately, 519 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 1: the legacy things that emerged are much more important than occupy. UM. 520 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: I think, you know, one of the things about it 521 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,639 Speaker 1: was that it really was just like the reemergence of 522 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 1: street politics, and like like as the re emergence of 523 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: street politics, like it was pretty limited and it was 524 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: not that effective at changing things, um. And also it 525 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: was incredibly effective at leading to those last decades of 526 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: struggle in the US. And I think you can't you know, 527 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: I think there's a tendency to want to judge movements 528 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:16,120 Speaker 1: by the immediate results that they produce, you know. Um 529 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 1: And like, you know, I think it is this my 530 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 1: about to quote now, I think I am was it 531 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:22,399 Speaker 1: like when when he gets asked, you know, what was 532 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: the what was the you know in in the twentieth 533 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,400 Speaker 1: anniversary of the Chinese Revolution, he gets asked, like, what 534 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: was the what was the outcome of the Chinese Revolution? 535 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: He says, it's too early to tell, right, Like, I think, 536 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 1: like that maybe that's I don't remember who that is. 537 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: They were right, Yeah, they were right. They were a 538 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: lot more people died than what we thought. Yeah. Yeah, 539 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, they successfully transitioned to capitalism and the 540 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah it was yeah. So, um, so what was 541 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,399 Speaker 1: the result of occupy? It's too early to tell, um, 542 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: But I think, like I also think, like the things 543 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 1: that we've talked about here, um were core components of 544 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 1: what what why? It matters? I do one other kind 545 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 1: of effect that it's had, And it's hard for me 546 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:06,159 Speaker 1: to gauge this because I've only been around post occupy, 547 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: but I feel like now when people try to get 548 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: stuff started, they really fall kind of into an occupy 549 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: mindset where they're like, the only way to make this 550 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: successful is to hold this space. And I think that 551 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: is really a default way that even more experience, like 552 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: both experienced organizers and new organizers really kind of keep 553 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:27,719 Speaker 1: you saying the word default. It's because like that's just 554 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 1: that's just really like what they go into. You saw 555 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:32,120 Speaker 1: this in a lot of different cities last year. Really 556 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: they like people trying to set up spaces to hold UM. 557 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 1: A lot of them did not work, you know, a 558 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: lot of them. A lot of them were like, oh, yeah, 559 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: we're trying to try to hold the space for like 560 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: an hour, because then the cops pushed us out right, 561 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 1: and you know, in a place like the chairs they 562 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 1: got extended out a bit longer that Chad has had 563 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: its own problems um an other cities in the Pacific Northwest. 564 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 1: This happened a city, it happened, and it happened a 565 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,920 Speaker 1: lot of places. I mean, like I think George Floyd 566 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: Square is maybe one of the more honestly successful ones. 567 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 1: UM for how they were able to actually kind of 568 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: keep police away, and they did they avoided turning it 569 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: into this big media thing like like with the Chaz 570 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: did Um And I don't know, I think I grew 571 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 1: very I saw a lot of people kind of grow 572 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 1: kind of frustrated with this like kind of occupy mentality 573 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: because what that kind of results in is people just 574 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: setting up outside of a police headquarters and trying to 575 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 1: stay there for as long as possible, which is like 576 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: that's not doing anything, You're just kind of waiting to 577 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: get beat up. Um. Yeah. Yeah, but it's complicated though, right, 578 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: Like in defense of that tactic, like I think like 579 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: like that was also very color. That was also very 580 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: core to Ferguson. Right, they held West Florescence for a 581 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: week and a half. Now, they did it much. They 582 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: didn't do it by setting up tents and sitting there. Um. 583 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 1: And also like you know, like like a thing that 584 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: gets forgotten a lot in the lot in the histories, 585 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: you know, occupy Ice it was pretty small. I was 586 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: big here in Philly, it was it was massive here 587 00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: in Portland. Yeah. Yeah. So so like there were moments 588 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: when that tactic really does like it's important to have 589 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: a space to meet in. And I think we did 590 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: learn that, but I also agree that it has become 591 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: like any tactic that works once it becomes a fetish, right. Yeah, 592 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 1: it's always trying to balance space because like you know, 593 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 1: the two big things that have happened the past ten years, 594 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: it's occupying Hong Kong. So people try to balance these 595 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: two kind of almost opposing things like hold this space 596 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: and be water. That's kind of the two things that 597 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: people yell at the street back and forth, and no 598 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: one really knows what to do because it was yelling 599 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: slogans and and and I was I was there saying 600 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: about this. So they're like the one time the people 601 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: in Hong Kong got pinned down when when they had 602 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: to they had this sle versus siege, it was a 603 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: ship show, like you know what I say, Like the 604 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: people in Hong Kong, like you know, okay, like even 605 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 1: when they're like they they did not have by by 606 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 1: by the time you're getting to the sort of decision 607 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: of the universities like that, like you know, like they 608 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: had like molot They had like like Molotov workshops, Like 609 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 1: there were people like standing the roof shooting bows and arrows. 610 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: And cops and it's like it just wasn't enough. And 611 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: I mean and part partially personally, that has to do 612 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: with the fact that, like, you know, Hong Kong is 613 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: in a uniquely bad position insofar as it is one city, 614 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: and it's like the the the only possible way that 615 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 1: asposment in Hong Kong like ever just doesn't get crushed 616 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: by just the fact that they're outnumbered, like a thousand 617 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 1: to one is if it spreads. But like yeah, and 618 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: it became this you know, like that that moments like yeah, 619 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: that this that that the whole problem with with friend 620 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 1: to hold space became really apparently because even if you 621 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: have an extremely large number of people right like like 622 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 1: attacking one isolated space in mass even think the cops 623 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: are really good at and I think they really bad 624 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: at is trying to deal with like you know, like 625 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: five hundred people, like seven hundred instances of five hundred 626 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 1: people going through places because it just aren't enough of them. 627 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 1: But yeah, that was what was it? Like the head 628 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 1: of who wasn't it was a big and then national 629 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 1: least in the National Police, uh you know whatever, um 630 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: said that like we can very easily handle one March 631 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 1: of ten thousand people, but we can't handle ten marches 632 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: of one. It was and you gotta see this in Chicago, 633 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 1: feel like this is this is this is how the 634 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: police lost control of of of the miracle miles. Like yeah, 635 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: it was just there's people everywhere for everywhere and yeah, 636 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 1: I don't know, yeah I know, And that's and that's 637 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 1: how that's that's what you know. I mean, certainly in 638 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 1: Philly where it was, where it was very very powerful. 639 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 1: That's what the George Floyd rebellion looked like, was with 640 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: people were everywhere in Philly, all the neighborhoods. You know, 641 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 1: people didn't you know, like we were out there, you 642 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: know whatever, um and like they're like people didn't know 643 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: what was going on Free Block South, you know what 644 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: I mean. Like it was like that, like there was 645 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: just there were fights happening everywhere. And under those conditions, 646 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 1: the police can't can't, no matter how militarized they are, 647 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: they can't act um effectively. Anyway they can act. They 648 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: certainly will, they will act like pigs um. But but 649 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 1: I think like, yeah, so I think that that that 650 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: sort of dispersion, But I think the other there's so 651 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,040 Speaker 1: there's I'm going to promote a really really weird no 652 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:05,959 Speaker 1: crank book right now, but before twenty century, like literary weirdos. 653 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: Guy Uh alias Connetti um Italian wrote this book called 654 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: Crowds and Power, where he attempts to he attempts to 655 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 1: describe the entirety of human history and anthropology in terms 656 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: of crowds. This is obviously impossible and ridiculous, but that 657 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: book has the best descriptions of crowd dynamics I have 658 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: ever encountered anywhere, And I like, I like people who 659 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: take big swings because they end up they miss. Miss 660 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: has lots of interesting stuff. Um. I think that's why 661 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 1: people like Settlers by Jason Kai so much. Like I 662 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: think the thesis wasn't great, but there's so much incredible 663 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: stuff in that book that like it works anyway. Um 664 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: that having a really wild thesis allows you to like 665 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 1: really like get into some Yeah. So anyway, one of 666 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: the things that Connetti talks about in that book is 667 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: that UM a crowd uh an open crowd. As he 668 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 1: describes it, an open crowd is um must constantly be growing, 669 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 1: and the moment it stops growing, it starts shrinking. Right 670 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: YEA like this, I think that dynamic UM in terms 671 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 1: of both movement and like a momentary protest or riot 672 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 1: right is like really real, I can and I think 673 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: one of the things that UM, particularly organizers are trained 674 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: to do and like that that that we learned to do, 675 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 1: especially in law periods, and we're like organizing these little 676 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: you know, you know, these little crystallized groups of like 677 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 1: hard cadre or whatever is that, like you that like 678 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: what we learn as organized is something that is defendable. 679 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 1: But once you start defending something, you start losing it 680 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 1: because we cannot take on the state or the police 681 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 1: in a head on confrontation. UM. And this is this 682 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: can be confusing because sometimes you can successfully defend for 683 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 1: a few weeks, maybe even a few months. You can 684 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,479 Speaker 1: defend a space sometimes, but once people get really interested 685 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 1: in the defending, then they begin forming bureaucracies, governments, internal policing, 686 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,239 Speaker 1: security forces, whatever it is. They start becoming the like 687 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 1: the the They start undermining the very thing that made 688 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 1: it powerful, which was this sudden rapid growth, this sudden 689 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 1: like you know, like like big explosion of power and 690 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: self recognition that comes in the beginning of movement. And 691 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 1: I think I don't think there's a way to will 692 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 1: that problem away. Like I don't think we can just 693 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 1: like think our way out of it, like it's just 694 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 1: a problem. But I do think that like one thing 695 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 1: that we could take from the experience of occupy and 696 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,360 Speaker 1: the experience the last decade is that like if you do, 697 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 1: you know, consider yourself someone who wants to participate in 698 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: these kind of movements, which is probably why you're listening 699 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 1: to this podcast. Um right now, UM, don't try and defend, Like, 700 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 1: don't try and defend, Like some things will need to 701 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 1: be defended sometimes obviously, but like if your main thing 702 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:41,279 Speaker 1: is like the thing, we should never defend something we've 703 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 1: achieved so far, Um, we should never not be willing 704 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: to destroy it in order to like build something bigger, right, 705 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 1: Like we should never no movement thing that we have, 706 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: be it an occupy part, be it be it like 707 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: a take in space. Defending that should never outweigh the 708 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:01,879 Speaker 1: possibility of expanding. And if our strategic mindset obviously moment 709 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 1: to moment you can't just be thinking that constantly. But 710 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 1: the strategic mindset is like what we have now is 711 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:10,839 Speaker 1: only good to the extent that it can turn into 712 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: something more. Um, Rather than we have to defend what 713 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 1: we have now. If you can think that way, I 714 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,759 Speaker 1: think it opens up a lot of strategic possibilities. UM. 715 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:22,840 Speaker 1: And I think it's it's what has worked over the 716 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 1: last decade that I've seen is UM, when people attack, 717 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 1: when people expand, when people try to do try to 718 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: do new stuff. It doesn't always work and it doesn't 719 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 1: always hold. But that's what When that stuff stops happening, 720 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 1: the movement is doomed. I think I think that I 721 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: think that's a really good way to wrap things up. 722 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 1: I think that's a nice, beautiful sentiment. I kind of 723 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,839 Speaker 1: view this type of thing in more than just protests 724 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 1: and you know, and into different pasts of life. I 725 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 1: think you can always learn from past experiences, from past struggles, 726 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 1: but if you try to perfectly replicate them, you're absolutely 727 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 1: gonna fail. You can, you can always learn and move on, 728 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,399 Speaker 1: but you should not be focused on any kind of replication. 729 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 1: Is there any of your bookstore writings you'd want to 730 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: plug before we wrap up here? Sure? Yeah, I mean 731 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:10,839 Speaker 1: I wrote a book that came out last year, UM 732 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:15,239 Speaker 1: called in Defensive Looting. UM came out UM with bold 733 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:20,240 Speaker 1: type UM. I am currently also writing Um, I'm obsessed 734 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: with movies. I write a movie review um column for 735 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,799 Speaker 1: the Al Jazeera Plus. Um, I did not know news letters. Yeah, 736 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 1: the news letter sub stack. Um, if you want to read, 737 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 1: I mean it's really it is really movie reviews. So 738 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 1: if you want, you know, cranky anarchist theory, it's not 739 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 1: the spot for you. Um. Otherwise, Yeah, I'm I'm on 740 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,399 Speaker 1: a pretty long social media break right now. But good 741 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 1: for you there. Eventually I'll probably come back inevitably unfortunately. Yeah, 742 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 1: you know, I just have I have writing popping up 743 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 1: every every now and then, and um, and if you 744 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,719 Speaker 1: read it, I would appreciate it. Well. Yeah, absolutely wonderful. 745 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:57,840 Speaker 1: Thank you, and yeah, thank you for so much for 746 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: coming on to talk about, um, occupying stuff that I 747 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 1: think a lot of people hear about, but you know, 748 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 1: at least all of my generation does not fully kind 749 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:14,240 Speaker 1: of grasp it. Um. It is. It is literally my pleasure. 750 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,440 Speaker 1: Like I you know, I wasted so much of my 751 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:19,319 Speaker 1: life thinking about this. I'm so glad to be able 752 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 1: to share some of it with some people. I'm so 753 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: so glad you're able to join us too. This is 754 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,479 Speaker 1: I've've been looking forward to us for a while. Yeah, 755 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:32,840 Speaker 1: that's very excited. All right. That wraps up us today. 756 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,399 Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter and Instagram, at cool 757 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 1: Zone Media and Happen Here Pod. We'll be back in 758 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:46,759 Speaker 1: for a few more episodes this week. Audios. It Could 759 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 1: Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. Well 760 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 1: more podcasts from cool Zone Media. Visit our website cool 761 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 1: zone Media dot com, or check us out on the 762 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,759 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 763 00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,719 Speaker 1: to podcasts. You can find sources for it could Happen Here. 764 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,319 Speaker 1: Up it in monthly at cool zone Media dot com 765 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,280 Speaker 1: slash sources. Thanks for listening.