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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time.

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Speaker 3: It is Sunday.

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Speaker 2: It is January twenty fifth, and Stephanie is out this

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Speaker 2: week at Sundance. We couldn't be more proud of her

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Speaker 2: and Gabriel Castillo and the entire team at Kat's Studios

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Speaker 2: and just so you're on the lookout for later, they

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Speaker 2: are there to promote and premiere Murder one oh one,

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Speaker 2: the first of three episodes of the documentary. So that's

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Speaker 2: where Stephanie is.

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Speaker 3: But we're here.

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Speaker 2: I'm Courtney Armstrong. I am here with my buddy body

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Speaker 2: move in and we have producer Taha and daytime producer Ava.

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Speaker 3: Hi, guys, what's up? Hello?

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Speaker 2: Hello?

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Speaker 3: You know what else we have is a stacked night

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Speaker 3: of headlines not tonight, really we do.

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Speaker 2: There has been an arrest finally, it's related to the

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Speaker 2: David the Pop Star slash Celese Revas Hernandez case. Also,

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Speaker 2: there's kind of a bombshell dropped by the defense. This

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Speaker 2: happened on Friday in the off air murder trial, So

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Speaker 2: we'll tell you all about.

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Speaker 3: That, and then Body is going.

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Speaker 2: To guide us through a deep dive into the infamous

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Speaker 2: Zodiac killer. So we got a lot on tap. How

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Speaker 2: has everyone's weekend been.

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Speaker 3: I've kind of been glued to media all weekend, unfortunately

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Speaker 3: to the detriment of my mental health. How about you, guys.

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Speaker 4: Somewhere in the middle. I mean, I have a little

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Speaker 4: belated birthday celebration with friends, so I took my mind

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Speaker 4: off of it. But that was nice. But then as

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Speaker 4: soon as I got home after that, I started spiraling

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Speaker 4: down the pressing news and a spiral.

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Speaker 5: I'm in the middle of a big, bigel snowstorm right now,

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Speaker 5: all stowed in. It's been freezing cold, but it's really

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Speaker 5: beautiful and it's really cozy, and it kind of gives

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Speaker 5: me an excuse. I feel like to just not leave

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Speaker 5: my patrol lat day.

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Speaker 6: So that's why text me beautiful will it's really coad

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Speaker 6: to set out here.

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Speaker 2: Well, Body, I have an idea of part of what

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Speaker 2: has kept your attention and the nation's attention in the

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Speaker 2: news this weekend.

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Speaker 3: Why don't you update US. So Alex Pretty. He's a

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Speaker 3: thirty seven year old ICU nurse and US citizen. He

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Speaker 3: was fatally shot by federal officers during an immigration enforcement

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Speaker 3: operation in Minneapolis on Saturday, January twenty fourth, twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 3: There's been a lot of conflicting accounts of you know

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Speaker 3: that have been coming out. The federal authorities claim he

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Speaker 3: was armed and he approached officers while resisting, while multiple

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Speaker 3: videos and night whenness report show he was holding only

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Speaker 3: a phone and pin face down on the ground before

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Speaker 3: being shot. Minneapolis is experiencing, you know, a lot of

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Speaker 3: widespread tension and public protests. As you know, federal immigration

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Speaker 3: agents conduct aggressive enforcement operations. With this being the second

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Speaker 3: fatal shooting of a citizen this month.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's really unfathomable what is coming at us

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Speaker 2: content wise, as an entire nation, the entire world. We

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Speaker 2: are seeing people gunned down dead right in front of

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Speaker 2: our eyes.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 3: We know, in September we saw Charlie Kirk correctly murdered

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Speaker 3: you know, pretty live basically, and then in January, now

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Speaker 3: Renee Good and now Alex Pretty.

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Speaker 4: It's so horrific and it's affecting people in such a way.

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Speaker 4: But I'm hoping people don't become jaded by constantly seeing

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Speaker 4: that that now you're just like, oh, it's just another shooting, like.

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Speaker 3: We do with school shootings, right, like, oh, okay, another precisely. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's a really good point. I hope, and I hope

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Speaker 3: not hope not too. I hope it stops very soon.

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Speaker 3: So late night Saturday last night, a federal judge in

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Speaker 3: Minnesota granted a temporary restraining order blocking multiple federal agencies

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Speaker 3: and officials from destroying or altering any evidence related to

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Speaker 3: the fatal shooting of Alex Pretty. The order was issued

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Speaker 3: after the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension and the Headepen

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Speaker 3: County Attorney's office asked the court to step in, citing

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Speaker 3: concerns that the federal authorities may have removed evidence from

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Speaker 3: the scene or taken it into exclusive custody. The judge's

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Speaker 3: order applies broadly to the Department of Fill, Land Security,

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Speaker 3: Ice Border Patrol, and the FBI, and it also means

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Speaker 3: federal officials acting in their official roles. There's a court

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Speaker 3: hearing set for tomorrow, January twenty sixth of twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 3: Say that six times where federal defendants can object to

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Speaker 3: the order or argue whether should remain in place. So

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Speaker 3: we'll be probably be covering that, so stay tuned for that.

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Speaker 3: What happened, you know, this is just a summary of

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Speaker 3: what happened quickly before you move on.

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Speaker 2: I am appalled that this order was called for, that

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Speaker 2: there was reason for it to be called for. I mean,

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Speaker 2: potentially potentially destroying or altering evidence.

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Speaker 3: Well, they have concerns, right, and I think they have

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Speaker 3: those concerns because of I think last week I had

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Speaker 3: mentioned that Renee's Renee Good her van was kind of

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Speaker 3: towed away without being sealed off. It was just open

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Speaker 3: air traveling down the highway. Of course, the gunman fled

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Speaker 3: the scene, you know, I think that's I mean, listen,

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Speaker 3: I'm only assuming that's why they did it. But they

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Speaker 3: did say they had concerns.

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Speaker 5: And we also talked about the death last week of

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Speaker 5: that man who died in ice custody in and it

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Speaker 5: had been covered by a few news outlets that witnesses

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Speaker 5: who had seen the homicide because the medical aidementer had

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Speaker 5: ruled it as a homicide, were being deported. So it

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Speaker 5: seems like there might be a pattern of attempted cover

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Speaker 5: ups for evidence, which I think is really important to note.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, when you in lay what the

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Speaker 3: Department of Homeland Security Secretary Christy Nomes said happened with

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Speaker 3: what with the video, you can clearly see how we're

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Speaker 3: being given a false narrative. I think that they had

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Speaker 3: just concerns, and apparently so did the judge.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: So, Alex Petrie, he's an ICU nurse at the Minneapolis

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Speaker 3: Veterans Affairs Hospital. He is a US citizen. He was

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Speaker 3: born in Illinois. He was raised in Green Bay. He

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Speaker 3: has a bachelor's degree in Biology, Society, and the Environment

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Speaker 3: from the University of Minnesota. The Department of Homeland Security

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Speaker 3: reported that victim Alex Pretty resisted disarmament while allegedly holding

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Speaker 3: a nine millimeter handgun. I standard videos show Alex Pretty

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Speaker 3: holding only a phone, being tackled and pinned face down

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Speaker 3: by at least six officers and shot at least ten times,

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Speaker 3: mostly in the back. Now, if you know anything about me, Courtney,

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Speaker 3: you know I extracted this video frame by frame, right, right,

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Speaker 3: And I didn't even need to do that because so

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Speaker 3: many other people did as well. And you can clearly

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Speaker 3: see that they they do remove a weapon and it's

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Speaker 3: coming from like a holster in his pants which is

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Speaker 3: kind of like just above his rear end, like on

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Speaker 3: a six what I would say, right, and so an

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Speaker 3: Ice officer. I think it's an Ice officer. Alex had

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Speaker 3: a gun. He did he was a concealed carry owner,

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Speaker 3: which he was allowed to have one, but he did

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Speaker 3: not have it. He wasn't armed with it. He didn't

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Speaker 3: have it in his hands or whatever it was in

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Speaker 3: his holster, in his in his you know, in his pants, right,

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Speaker 3: and removed the gun and leave And as soon as

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Speaker 3: that happens is when the shots started being heard.

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Speaker 4: That's the part I'd love for you to since you

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Speaker 4: looked at it frame by frame, can you see what happened?

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Speaker 4: Because I feel like I saw that moment where the

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Speaker 4: gun was removed and they walk away, but it's hard

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Speaker 4: for me to see what's happening on the ground.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 3: There's so many angles that have been there's so many

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Speaker 3: videos and different angles that have been released. And when

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Speaker 3: you look at the angle where it's from like across

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Speaker 3: the street, you can see the Ice agent grab the

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Speaker 3: weapon from the holster and leave the crowd of Ice

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Speaker 3: agents that are surrounding Alex pretty and as soon as

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Speaker 3: he leaves that area or starts to leave that area,

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Speaker 3: is when the shots are heard. And I don't know

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Speaker 3: exactly which officer fired the shot because you can't really

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Speaker 3: see because there's there's so many people surrounding him, but

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Speaker 3: he definitely was not armed when he was shot, and

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Speaker 3: he was pinned and faced down the entire time.

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Speaker 5: And I just want to say, I know that we

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Speaker 5: have kind of debated a lot about whether or not

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Speaker 5: these kind of events, such as the ice related crimes

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Speaker 5: and kind of crimes that are more politically charged, if

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Speaker 5: they belong on the show, But I feel like it

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Speaker 5: really speaks to the fact that this is a crime

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Speaker 5: in the sense that we're using the same kinds of

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Speaker 5: skills and knowledge that we use for all of the

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Speaker 5: other kinds of cases we cover on the show in

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Speaker 5: this context. And I feel like working on the show

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Speaker 5: and talking about all these other cases has really armed

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Speaker 5: me with the knowledge and the critical thinking skills to

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Speaker 5: be able to look at what happened and think about, like,

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Speaker 5: how does this compare contrast from other so called crimes

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Speaker 5: or homicides, and what makes us a homicide? What makes

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Speaker 5: this not a homicide? What kinds of things should we

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Speaker 5: be looking for? So I do really think it's important

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Speaker 5: for us to talk about on the show because it

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Speaker 5: follows the same kind of themes and trends that we

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Speaker 5: cover in almost everything we do cover.

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Speaker 3: No, and I one hundred percent agree with you, And

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Speaker 3: I do believe that we witnessed a homicide, you know, yesterday. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: we'll have to wait for the ruling on that, but

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Speaker 3: I do believe.

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Speaker 2: That absolutely this is true crime tonight. And if you

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Speaker 2: are just joining us, I'm Courtney Armstrong here with a

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Speaker 2: body move in and producers Taha and Eva, and we

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Speaker 2: are talking about the shooting that happened in Minneapolis this weekend.

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Speaker 2: Alex Pretty, you were in the middle of telling us

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Speaker 2: exactly what did happen?

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Speaker 3: Body, Yeah, so multiple after they removed his weapon from

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Speaker 3: his holture and kind of left that one I saw

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Speaker 3: officer left the crowd. Multiple federal officers just charged firearms

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Speaker 3: in rapid succession, and afterwards, one eyewitness said it didn't

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Speaker 3: look like he was trying to resist, just trying to

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Speaker 3: help a woman up. Now, right before this happened, they

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Speaker 3: had been kind of sprayed. Alex Pretty and I think

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Speaker 3: a woman had been sprayed, you know, in the face area,

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Speaker 3: with like some kind of chemical agent, and Alex, being

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Speaker 3: an ICU nurse, was trying to assist her, and that's

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Speaker 3: when they pulled him off of her and the pinned

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Speaker 3: him to the ground. So that's what she's saying when

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Speaker 3: she said, just trying to help a woman up. The

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Speaker 3: Minneapolis Police Chief Brian O'Hara said, the video speaks for itself.

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Speaker 3: Alex Pritty's parents said that Alex is clearly not holding

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Speaker 3: a gun when attacked by the federal agents and called

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Speaker 3: the federal account sickening lies. They added, please get the

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Speaker 3: truth out about our son. He was a good man.

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Speaker 2: It's such a heartbreak and it happened, you know, it

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Speaker 2: appears so needless, and I gotta be honest. It just

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Speaker 2: keeps bringing to mind, you know, the phrase, don't believe

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Speaker 2: your lyon eyes right saying this and how are you

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Speaker 2: shooting a man in the back multiple times upon multiple

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Speaker 2: times who is down on his knees and on the

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Speaker 2: ground and saying that you are defending yourself does not

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Speaker 2: match the video? Oh much like Minneapolis Police Chief Brian

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Speaker 2: O'Hara said.

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Speaker 4: You're right, he said that for itself, right, I was

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Speaker 4: just gonna say, and to that point, this is something

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Speaker 4: we see on camera. Can you imagine how many incidents

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Speaker 4: that are happening where.

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Speaker 3: That's why these legal observers are so critically important to

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Speaker 3: these kinds of things, right, because they're getting these things

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Speaker 3: on camera. You know, anybody observing can be a legal observer,

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Speaker 3: and so you know, it's it's important that those people

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Speaker 3: are continuing to be able to film when needed, I mean,

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Speaker 3: at all times. Basically, I think they're on sun heroes personally.

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Speaker 3: I should add that, you know, Renee's Good death back

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Speaker 3: on January seventh, has beneficially ruled a homicide by the

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Speaker 3: Hennepin County Medical Examiner's Office and said that it was

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Speaker 3: caused by multiple gunshot wounds inflicted by Ice agent Jonathan

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Speaker 3: Ross during that shooting in the Minneapolis a couple of

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Speaker 3: weeks ago, and kind of the reason that the tensions

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Speaker 3: are so high there right now. Good was found unresponsive

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Speaker 3: in her vehicle after being shot several times while driving,

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Speaker 3: with reports detailing gunshot wounds to her chest, form, and head,

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Speaker 3: and it's been noted that her fatal shot was to

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Speaker 3: the left side of her head, which would be through

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Speaker 3: the passenger side window.

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Speaker 4: M H.

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Speaker 2: And wasn't there some confusion. I feel like we might

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Speaker 2: have even spoken about this, that there were four shots

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Speaker 2: or four wounds, and that seems to have maybe just

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Speaker 2: been mis information.

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Speaker 3: Well, the medical examiners, the well the report that the

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Speaker 3: independent autopsy from the Good family said that there were

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Speaker 3: there were four wounds. It said that there was one

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Speaker 3: in her her arm, her chest, her head, and then

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Speaker 3: a grazing wound. And we don't know if that means

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Speaker 3: there were four shots or if there's just four wounds.

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Speaker 3: So we're not one hundred percent sure. The Medical Examiner's office,

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Speaker 3: I don't believe has released the official Uh, like the

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Speaker 3: official one hasn't been released. We've only ever forgot the

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Speaker 3: independent one.

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Speaker 5: The full autopsy report has not yet been released by the.

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Speaker 3: Right, and I'm hoping that's a sign that it's under investigation.

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Speaker 3: That's why it's not been released. Federal officials claim that

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Speaker 3: Renee Good attempted to weaponize her vehicle, a version of

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Speaker 3: evenge that has been strongly disputed by local officials and

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Speaker 3: her family. She was a mother of three, and her

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Speaker 3: family's being represented by attorney Antonio Ramanucci, who is awaiting

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Speaker 3: the full autopsy report. So we're gonna We're gonna, obviously

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Speaker 3: keep following these stories. It's very relevant to what's happening

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Speaker 3: in the world today. And it is true crime, right.

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Speaker 2: It is true crime playing out in real time and

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Speaker 2: on our streets and in front of all of us, right,

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Speaker 2: And I know Governor Tim Maltz has made repeated requests

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Speaker 2: for people to continue filming.

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Speaker 3: Right. I also want to add one quick thing. The

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Speaker 3: NRA came out and said that responsible public voices that

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Speaker 3: should be awaiting a full investigation, not making generalizations and

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Speaker 3: demonizing law abiding citizens. Very interesting. That really is well. Listen,

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Speaker 3: stick around because when we come back.

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Speaker 2: We have the absolute latest in what's going on in

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Speaker 2: the pop Star David Celestievius Hernandez investigation and what just

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Speaker 2: happened with one of David's friends and why it matters

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Speaker 2: so much. Also, the Ohio murder suspect is finally in court,

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Speaker 2: and we're going to find out what the accused just

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Speaker 2: did that may shape everything that comes next. Keep it here,

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Speaker 2: True Crime Tonight, here talking true crime all the time.

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Speaker 3: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. Where we

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Speaker 3: talking true crime all the time. I'm Boddy Moven and

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Speaker 3: I'm here with Courtney Armstrong as always. Our lovely Stephanie

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Speaker 3: is at Sundance and we miss her very much and

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Speaker 3: wash her all the best. But luckily for us, Ta

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Speaker 3: has here as always, and oh my gosh, Eva, We're

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Speaker 3: so lucky she's here. Later in the show, we're gonna

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Speaker 3: be talking about a bombshell that has been dropped by

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Speaker 3: the defense on Friday in the All Pair murder trial.

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Speaker 3: I can't wait to hear about that, Courtney. But first

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Speaker 3: I have an update in the David and Celeste.

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Speaker 5: Finally, I've been waiting for an update, literally dying.

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Speaker 3: I do, I did?

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Speaker 5: Okay, I am.

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Speaker 2: I think the least conspiratorially minded of you are most anyone.

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Speaker 5: I swear.

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Speaker 2: This David case has had me thinking did like some emperor,

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Speaker 2: like who is behind the scenes that it.

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Speaker 3: Is taking so long in the criminal mat her mind? Right,

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Speaker 3: hadn't been able to be arrested by this time yet? Right? Yeah,

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Speaker 3: so tell us, Oh, maybe we're on the way. Though,

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Speaker 3: maybe we're on the way with this update. So a

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Speaker 3: friend of the singer David Neo. His name is Neil Langston.

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Speaker 3: He's twenty three and he was arrested at his mother house,

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Speaker 3: his mother's home in Montana last Thursday after allegedly failing

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Speaker 3: to appear as a witness before the Los Angeles grand

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Speaker 3: jury that we were talking about all hot and heavy

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Speaker 3: last month. Remember the TMZ was in the hallway and

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Speaker 3: getting back hallway. Yeah, So he didn't show up to

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Speaker 3: testify at this grand jury and he they basically said,

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Speaker 3: you know, you're an attempt and went and got him.

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Speaker 3: So the grand jury was investigating the death of fourteen

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Speaker 3: year old Celeste Reevas Hernandez. And for those who aren't familiar,

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Speaker 3: she disappeared from Lake Elsinore, California, in April of twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty four. She was only thirteen years old at the time,

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Speaker 3: and her remains were found in September of twenty two,

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Speaker 3: a day after her fifteenth birthday. Okay, and they were

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Speaker 3: inside a Tesla fronk, which is like a front trunk

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Speaker 3: that was registered to singer David and it was right

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Speaker 3: outside of his house in La this Tesla. Law enforcement

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Speaker 3: has identified David as a suspect, although he hasn't been charged,

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Speaker 3: and the investigation remains ongoing under Grand jury, So this

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Speaker 3: is very interesting. Neo was booked in Montana and later

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Speaker 3: transferred to LAPD custody and his bail was set at

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Speaker 3: sixty thousand dollars. Helena, Montana Police Department assisted the LAPD,

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Speaker 3: which is leading the investigation. You know, LA obviously is

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Speaker 3: leading this investigation. An LA County grand jury has been

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Speaker 3: convened to investigate this indictment in the in I'm sorry

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Speaker 3: to investigate an indictment in the death of Celestrivas Hernandez,

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Speaker 3: and authorities have said multiple people may have been involved

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Speaker 3: and that the cause and manner of death is you know,

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Speaker 3: it remains under that court seal. Remember, the medical examiner

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Speaker 3: was basically put on gag to release about, you know,

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Speaker 3: the manner and cause of of Celestreevas's death.

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Speaker 2: It's so wild, it's so wild and just begs so

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Speaker 2: many questions. And to sort of see that infighting between

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Speaker 2: the medical Examiner's office and the prosecution's office is a

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Speaker 2: singular moment for me right now.

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Speaker 3: I totally agree. And this is interesting and something I

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Speaker 3: kind of want to talk about a little bit. P

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Speaker 3: I Stephen Fisher. He is been hired by the owner

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Speaker 3: of the home that David was renting where the tesla

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Speaker 3: was found. He hired uh, you know, Steven Fisher to

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Speaker 3: find out what the heck's going on, and Steve Fisher

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Speaker 3: posted his take on the arrest on his Twitter account,

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Speaker 3: essentially saying that he thinks the arrest suggests that the

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Speaker 3: prosecutors reviewed David's friend Neo as a witness rather than

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Speaker 3: a charging target, and that the arrest may reflect prosecutorial

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Speaker 3: difficulty in building a strong case and it's going to

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Speaker 3: be relying on circumstantial evidence. And guess what, I one

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Speaker 3: hundred percent agree with de Fisher on this.

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Speaker 5: Can you break down what those words mean? Because I

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Speaker 5: know it's a lot of kind of like true crime words, but.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean yeah. So the idea is is that

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Speaker 3: if you were going to be charged in under an

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Speaker 3: indictment of murder, you basically wouldn't be being called as

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Speaker 3: a witness to the grand jury. That's basically the idea here.

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Speaker 3: Because the police said that they think maybe it's possible

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Speaker 3: that multiple people were involved, and it always it's always

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Speaker 3: been kind of assumed that one of those people was David,

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Speaker 3: when one of those people was his best friend Neo.

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Speaker 3: And those of us who have been following along and

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Speaker 3: watching these things. Notice that they unfollowed, they unfollowed each

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Speaker 3: other on social media. They just had a lot of

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Speaker 3: suss behavior, you know that we normally wouldn't have. Right, Well,

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Speaker 3: this him being a witness to the grand jury kind

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Speaker 3: of makes people think and I agree that he's a

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Speaker 3: witness to this and not a suspect. Does that make

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Speaker 3: sense that yeah, okay?

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Speaker 4: Or is there a world where here they're setting the

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Speaker 4: stage so he can have a plea deal like if

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Speaker 4: he was.

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Speaker 3: Possibly, I mean, that's entirely possible. And then you know,

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Speaker 3: he went on. Steve Fisher went on to say that

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Speaker 3: you know that this may reflect that the prosecutors are

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Speaker 3: having a hard time building a case and relying on

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Speaker 3: circumstantial evidence rather than kind of direct evidence. So if

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Speaker 3: you're talking about that those terminologies, there's two kinds of evidence.

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Speaker 3: There's direct and then there's circumstantial. Direct evidence speaks for itself.

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Speaker 3: It's eyewitness testimony, confessions, weapons forensics, you know, things that

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Speaker 3: people can they have a lot of faith in when

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Speaker 3: hearing testimony. Circumstantial evidence implies a fact through inference. It

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Speaker 3: could be like crime scene conditions, like maybe it was raining,

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Speaker 3: linking testimony from this person to that person. Physical indicators

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Speaker 3: of criminal activity like maybe a scratch mark, but you

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Speaker 3: can't prove it was made by the victim. Those are

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Speaker 3: all circumstantial type of things, and circumstantial cases are presented

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Speaker 3: all the time, and a lot of people get scared, right, Courtney.

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Speaker 2: I was just about to say, people think, oh, it's circumstantial.

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Speaker 2: I mean I would bet and don't quote me about most. Yeah, absolutely,

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Speaker 2: like a really high percentage, because it's very rare that

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Speaker 2: you have the literal the smoking gun and the perpetrator

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Speaker 2: with that smoking gun in their hand, et cetera, or.

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Speaker 3: Rare, but that happens. So most trials rely on both,

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Speaker 3: you know, they prefer have a mix of both, But

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Speaker 3: circumstantial evidence is one hundred percent used, used more frequently

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Speaker 3: because it's you know, easier to understand. It's you know, circumstantial, right,

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Speaker 3: Neither type is more valuable than the other, though in

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Speaker 3: the eyes of the law, like you know it just

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Speaker 3: if you have a direct a case with one hundred

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Speaker 3: percent direct evidence, it's not it doesn't have a heavy,

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Speaker 3: heavy or more heavy bearing on you know, the law.

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Speaker 3: So evidence can be presented through witness testimony or physical

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Speaker 3: exhibits including fingerprints, test results, and documents. Criminal charges can

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Speaker 3: be initiated through a grand ury indictment, which is what's

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Speaker 3: happening in LA right now. And a criminal charge must

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Speaker 3: specify the date, time and location of the alleged defense,

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Speaker 3: the accused involvements, and details of the crime.

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Speaker 5: See I find it's not really interesting. Yeah, they might

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Speaker 5: have all that because I us think about I don't know,

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Speaker 5: I'm channeling Stephanie in her honor tonight. Her whole thing

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Speaker 5: is like, why hasn't David been a rested? Yethy? Hasn't

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Speaker 5: David been arrested yet? But seeing this or hearing that,

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Speaker 5: a criminal charge must specify the time, date, and location

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Speaker 5: of the offense, the details of the crime, the accused involvement.

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Speaker 5: I mean, this seems like you need to really have

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Speaker 5: a very very clear picture of exactly what happened in

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Speaker 5: order to be able to bring charges. So I'm not

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Speaker 5: super surprised that David hasn't been charged yet.

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Speaker 3: Right in since we don't know the manner and cause

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Speaker 3: of death, we don't know anything about the day and

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Speaker 3: time that she allegedly perished, right we have no idea,

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Speaker 3: and it could be. It also could be that law

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Speaker 3: enforcement doesn't either m hm, right.

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Speaker 5: Which is why they need neo. This David's friend who's

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Speaker 5: been arrested. Maybe that's why they need him so badly,

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Speaker 5: because the evidence doesn't speak for itself, right.

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Speaker 2: Right, Well, with the you know, to refresh everybody's memory.

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Speaker 2: Poor Celestiy of Sernandez, of course was left in that

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Speaker 2: fronk in really hot conditions, which of course speeds up

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Speaker 2: body decomposition. It's just biology, and so you know that.

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Speaker 3: And I think the last known photo that Steve Fisher

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Speaker 3: found of Celeste was taken in the winter, so it

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Speaker 3: could be that she was in that front for a

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Speaker 3: very very well wow wow, right, and that's not just

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Speaker 3: because there's no picture available after that doesn't necessarily mean

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Speaker 3: she'd perished, But I mean it is interesting a teenager

435
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 3: without pictures, it doesn't happen a lot. But she's also

436
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:40,120
Speaker 3: a runaway too, so.

437
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's true. She could be keeping an intentional low

438
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 4: profile body. I was going to ask you two part

439
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 4: of question that sort of ties in with the PI Fisher.

440
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 4: Have we heard anything else about all that unusual farm

441
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,879
Speaker 4: equipment that was found in the so.

442
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:59,200
Speaker 3: Far we learned of course, there was that burn incinerator

443
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:03,159
Speaker 3: that's based illegal to have where David lived, that was

444
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 3: unopened but can reach temperatures to basically cremate a body.

445
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 3: Found that in the home. He also found I believe,

446
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 3: a chainsaw that was also unopened, I believe. And there's

447
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:17,199
Speaker 3: no reason to have these things in you know, the

448
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 3: area of LA in which David lived like none whatsoever.

449
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 5: It's just interesting, especially if you're like a child pop

450
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 5: star millionaire, like there's no world where he's doing long

451
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 5: work or whatever.

452
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 3: So we will obviously keep everybody posted on anything that

453
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 3: we hear that Neil may have testified to or a saying.

454
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 3: But for right now, mom's.

455
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 4: The word, Jerry, thank you. That's good to know.

456
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,120
Speaker 3: Right So, this is your crime tonight on iHeartRadio. I'm

457
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 3: body Moving and I'm here with Courtney and Ava. We

458
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 3: just finished wrapping up the David story. If you want

459
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 3: to weigh in, download the iHeart Radio app and leave

460
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 3: us a little talking back and you'll boom, You'll be

461
00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 3: on the show. Courtney, what do you got?

462
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 2: I have an update for you in the Monique and

463
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 2: Spencer Teppee case. Okay, yeah, so Monique Teppe's ex husband,

464
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 2: Michael David McKee, was arraigned in Ohio and it's on

465
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 2: multiple aggravated murder and aggravated burglary charges in connection with

466
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 2: the terribly tragic December thirtieth, twenty twenty five killings of

467
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 2: the ex wife Monique.

468
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 3: And her husband, doctor Spencer Tepe.

469
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 2: So. The defendant McKee is accused of illegally entering the

470
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 2: Teppe's house in Columbus, Ohio, fatally shooting the couple in

471
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,360
Speaker 2: their second degree home in there excuse me, in their

472
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 2: second floor bedroom, and then fleeing the scene. So the

473
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 2: two young children were thankfully unharmed, but were there in

474
00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 2: the house at the time of the murders were found,

475
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,879
Speaker 2: so they were found to be unharmed, but Monique and

476
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 2: Spencer were found to be deceased after a wellness check

477
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 2: on the thirtieth, which, if you guys remember those wellness

478
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:16,360
Speaker 2: checks came at the behest of multiple people who were

479
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 2: concerned about Spencer.

480
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,880
Speaker 3: And he didn't show up for work and he's a dentist, right,

481
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 3: and his coworkers and friends were like, oh my, that's

482
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 3: very unusual. In fact, I think one of them said,

483
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 3: it's even more unusual that we can't get a hold

484
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 3: of his wife. They were marying like stable people, totally

485
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:33,159
Speaker 3: stable people.

486
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 2: And actually I remember who said that because it stuck

487
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 2: with me as well, and it was Spencer Tepe's business

488
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 2: partner that he worked with.

489
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 5: I have a kind of a speculation that's been on

490
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 5: my mind about this case related to that point, which

491
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 5: is that it could be a reflection of their stable,

492
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 5: reliable people. But the comment about especially his wife makes

493
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 5: me think maybe they knew about this guy her past,

494
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 5: this ex husband, that he and the figure that was

495
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 5: kind of lurking and looming. So the fact that the

496
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 5: ex wife as well, or that the wife as well

497
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 5: was not being responsive kind of put up his ears

498
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 5: a little bit that they're correct, he could be involved,

499
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 5: which is in es, it's.

500
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 3: Very possible that he knew about you know, Monique had

501
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 3: mentioned to a lot of family and friends that she

502
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 3: had this basically you know, scary ex husband, right, and

503
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 3: that they were you know, that she was so affected

504
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 3: by this relationship that had changed her deeply as a person.

505
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 3: So it is possible that he knew about that and

506
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 3: was like maybe the hairs on his next it up, right, Yeah,

507
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 3: that is possible.

508
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 2: Interesting, well, Michael McKee. He appeared remotely for this arraignment.

509
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 2: The arraignment happened just on on Friday of last week,

510
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 2: and he was wearing prison attire. He didn't speak at

511
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 2: all and instead let his defense attorney speak for him,

512
00:29:55,840 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 2: and the defense attorney waved the bond request. So that's

513
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 2: not on the table anymore. And we've spoken about this before,

514
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 2: but the charges are so interesting. So McKee is charged

515
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 2: with four counts of aggravated murder and this breaks down

516
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 2: to two per victim. One charge for each is prior

517
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,479
Speaker 2: calculation and design, the other is for committing the crime.

518
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 2: There's also a kount of aggravated burglary with a firearm

519
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 2: suppressor because he had he came into the house. And

520
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 2: the sentence ranges it can be anywhere from life with

521
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 2: parole eligibility after thirty two years or as long as

522
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 2: life without parole.

523
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 3: Right.

524
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 2: So, and curiously, as we talked about, there was no

525
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:49,959
Speaker 2: child endangerment.

526
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 3: For experience that party. I was very surprised that there's

527
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,959
Speaker 3: no kind of like child abuse or child endangerment on

528
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 3: those on those charges because he's shot their parents, these

529
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 3: little kids ages one and four and basically left them

530
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 3: in the house to wake up and find them, right potentially, Yeah,

531
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 3: I mean that would be child abuse.

532
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean the case we're about to talk about

533
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 5: just the next segment, it was a very similar situation

534
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 5: where parents were murdered in the home. We are seeing

535
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 5: these these child use charges right.

536
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 3: Well, we're going to continue to follow this case and

537
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 3: give everybody updates. We're answering your dms, everything from Karen

538
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 3: Ree to Brian Coberger and the theories you're sharing with us.

539
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 3: We have been getting a lot of talkbacks.

540
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 2: From my listeners, but we have the unsung heroes the dms,

541
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 2: so we thought tonight let's like pause for a second

542
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 2: dig into some of them and Ava producer daytime producer, Ava,

543
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 2: why don't you hop in with one?

544
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 5: I would love to. I have the Instagram account on

545
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 5: my phone. I'm always checking your dm So thank you

546
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 5: guys for sending them. And we got one recently about

547
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 5: the Melissa Gilbert case that I wanted to talk about,

548
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 5: and this is regarding her husband, Melissa Gilbert. She's an actress.

549
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 5: She was in Little House on the Prairie half Pint.

550
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 5: This was before my time, but it seems like a

551
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 5: lot of people really care about.

552
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 6: Her Gilbert case, though right exactly, it's not her case.

553
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 5: It is the case involving her husband, who is an

554
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 5: actor named Timothy Bussfield, who some of us may know

555
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 5: and love from West Wing, and he has been accused

556
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 5: of sexually abusing children, like under the age of twelve

557
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 5: on a set where he was a director, and he

558
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 5: has been he has pled, not guilty. It's all sorts

559
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 5: of pre Charlal motions happening right now. So that's the

560
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 5: setup to this DM, and Melissa Gilbert sent a letter

561
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 5: to the court essentially defending her her husband. So Anne

562
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 5: Anne sent us a DM saying, regarding Melissa Gilbert and

563
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 5: her letter to the court, if her husband had been

564
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 5: abusing children, it might not be a huge stretch to

565
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 5: think she might be under a spell or in a

566
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 5: relationship with abuse in it. If that could be the case,

567
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:02,959
Speaker 5: she could feel compelled or could have been directed by

568
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 5: him to write that letter. Just wanted to provide that

569
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 5: perspective that maybe she's not my naive but rather is

570
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 5: a victim of abuse or perhaps some combination of both.

571
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 5: I think it's important to believe and not negate the

572
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 5: words of victims coming forward and alleged perpetrators are innocent

573
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 5: until proving guilty in a court of law. But I

574
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 5: think we do have a social duty to have a

575
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 5: dual stance when talking about victims and alleged perpetrators. So

576
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 5: what do you guys think? And okay, I think a

577
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 5: couple of things.

578
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 2: First of all, if if you didn't catch it that

579
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,480
Speaker 2: letter that Melissa Gilbert wrote to the court.

580
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 3: I didn't. I didn't that. I haven't seen it.

581
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, it just gave me, as the kids say,

582
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 2: the ick it is. You know, I likened it to

583
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 2: wedding vows of talking about Timothy Busfield.

584
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 3: Is the light of her life and the star in

585
00:33:57,960 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 3: her sky.

586
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 5: And take care of my husband as he is my protector.

587
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 5: I am his, but I cannot protect him now.

588
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, but correct me if I'm wrong. Courtney. Notably, she

589
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 4: didn't specify he didn't do what he's accused of in

590
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 4: her little let.

591
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 3: It was more of a character like letters of character. Yes, exactly.

592
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 2: So I think this DM is really and makes some

593
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:22,720
Speaker 2: interesting points.

594
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 3: And listen, none.

595
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 2: Of us know what goes on behind closed doors, so

596
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 2: you know your speculation may be correct, it may not.

597
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 2: We don't know that I will say that Melissa Gilbert, however,

598
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 2: was not alone.

599
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 3: It was I believe seventy. There were a lot that

600
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:47,360
Speaker 3: I heard about Sevendy letters basically saying that he was

601
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 3: a good guy, that this was impossible. Right, So there

602
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 3: were people that he worked with. I do remember, you know,

603
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 3: I haven't read the letters myself, but I just I

604
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 3: kind of went through the exhibit list, and I do

605
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 3: remember even and somebody from one of the sets that

606
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 3: he worked on came forward and said that there were

607
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 3: never any problems, and you know that, uh didn't he say?

608
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 3: This guy say that. I actually I'm a forget you know,

609
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 3: I can't remember.

610
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,399
Speaker 4: No, I kind of recall what you were talking about.

611
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 4: There was a person that was a set designer or

612
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 4: someone that worked on the set that says, YE, never

613
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 4: saw it.

614
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 3: I never thought appropriate never.

615
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 4: I mean, just playing Devil's advocate, you know, these are

616
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 4: all people that don't see everything that's happening with this

617
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 4: man every time. And then also, you know, still with

618
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 4: the Devil's advocate mindset, the seventy people, a lot of

619
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 4: them are depending on this director for work and their salary.

620
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,240
Speaker 4: So you know, of course I would probably say glowing

621
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,919
Speaker 4: things as well, But but you know, who knows, and

622
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:49,320
Speaker 4: we'll wait and see what happens.

623
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,840
Speaker 3: But I do think I do like what the victory

624
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 3: What the DM said though, is that you know she said,

625
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 3: I think we have a social duty to have a

626
00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 3: dual stance when talking about victims and a leg perpetrators, right,

627
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 3: because you want to believe victims, right, You always want

628
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 3: to believe victims, but you also have to like understand

629
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 3: that everybody's innocent until proven guilty. Like, how can those

630
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:15,240
Speaker 3: two things work together? It's hard, It's hard to balance

631
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 3: those two things, right, So I do think that that's

632
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 3: a very good point.

633
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 5: And similarly, and kind of like this both and gray

634
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 5: space of could Melissa Gilbert, this accused pedophile sex abuser's wife,

635
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 5: is it possible she is also a victim? I think

636
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 5: that that's a really important point. And obviously I don't

637
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 5: want to accuse him of anything that been accused of,

638
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 5: But I feel like this isn't the only situation, just

639
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 5: other kind of maybe like celebrity couples that I've seen,

640
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 5: for example, this is a bit of a tangent, but

641
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 5: Shila buff and Mia Gos, I don't know if you

642
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 5: guys know about Shilah Buff. He's like the actor.

643
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:55,320
Speaker 4: But I don't know the other person.

644
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 5: She is a beautiful actress. She was in Frankenstein, she

645
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:03,360
Speaker 5: was Pearl, kind of has like a gothic kind of vibe.

646
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 5: So they're in a relationship, and Shila Buff has been

647
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 5: accused of horrific sex abuse and just like being a

648
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 5: really abusive partner in his previous relationships. And I love

649
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 5: me a goth And something that I struggle with is

650
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,359
Speaker 5: why is she with this person who has all these

651
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,919
Speaker 5: horrible allegations against him? And is it possible that she's

652
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 5: also a victim or is she someone that just kind

653
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 5: of knows about this and doesn't care and it's not

654
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,399
Speaker 5: it doesn't matter to her that he has done all

655
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 5: these things. And I feel like it's kind of a

656
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,399
Speaker 5: similar situation here where you really never know, like what

657
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 5: that relationship looks like.

658
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 3: I guess true. So that really quick, that set person

659
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 3: that I was, you know, I went and got it

660
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 3: because it's important. I remembered it being important, and what

661
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 3: it was was The defense reiterated is innocence and submitted exhibits,

662
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 3: including an affid David from a set worker claiming no

663
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 3: inappropriate behavior observed. And more importantly, this is the important part.

664
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 3: I forgot an audio recording of the two boys that

665
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 3: are accusing him of, you know this in this case,

666
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 3: So it's related to this case, specifically a recording of

667
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 3: those two boys interviews with police where they allegedly deny

668
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 3: the abuse. But I think it's also important to note

669
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 3: too that I think that you know, it's scary being

670
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 3: interviewed by police and you might just say no, nothing

671
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:21,760
Speaker 3: happened because you're embarrassed, and it's.

672
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,760
Speaker 5: And you're a kid, and you like you're in trouble.

673
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 3: But it's it's it's also important to his defense, right,

674
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 3: it's important. So says that he listened to audio recordings

675
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 3: of those two boys interviews with police and they allegedly

676
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 3: deny that abuse. So yeah, it's tricky.

677
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 2: I mean, I even I watched the Elizabeth Smart documentary.

678
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,439
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I started watching it. It's good, it is.

679
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 2: Good, It is good, and I felt that it has

680
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 2: a bunch of footage of Elizabeth's younger sister who was

681
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 2: in the room when Elizabeth Smart was taken out of

682
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 2: their shared bedroom. And the younger sister was nine at

683
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 2: the time, and you can see in her being interviewed

684
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 2: by police or social workers. I'm not sure which, but

685
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 2: I can't imagine how scary and.

686
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 3: How high the stakes would feel. You're a little kid,

687
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,360
Speaker 3: so I don't know. It's tricky.

688
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, that is frightening.

689
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, well should we want to do another one? Yeah?

690
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:35,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, well I have one that This one is from Jesse,

691
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:40,240
Speaker 4: and this DM says. I have to say, I agree

692
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 4: totally with body about ICE. As former law enforcement, I

693
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 4: know the rules. ICE is acting outside of them. It

694
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 4: is horrendous what they're doing. I have to say that, yes,

695
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 4: they are getting up every morning and wanting to quote

696
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,320
Speaker 4: f with people. I worked far too long with people

697
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,320
Speaker 4: that wanted to hurt people and hide behind their badge.

698
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 4: It should be known that people in law enforcement do that.

699
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 4: It's not right. I left my job because of it.

700
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 4: I couldn't take the abuse I was watching. I personally

701
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:16,720
Speaker 4: was injured several times because of my coworkers instigating situations

702
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 4: with inmates. Wow, well that's pretty couch.

703
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 3: Thank you very much for you know, Jesse, for that, DM.

704
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 3: I will say that we tend to you know, we

705
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,839
Speaker 3: really like law enforcement on the show, and we hold them.

706
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 3: We like them though but we also hold them to

707
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 3: a high standard. Right, And the law enforcement that we

708
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 3: speak to all the time and that we talk to

709
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 3: all the time are amazing.

710
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:40,760
Speaker 4: They're amazing.

711
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 3: They don't wake up every morning wanted to f with people, right,

712
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 3: They don't. They absolutely don't. They're people that want to

713
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 3: see justice served. They want to see victims, you know,

714
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 3: get the justice they deserve. They care about the families

715
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 3: of victims, They care about the victims themselves. I don't.

716
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:58,839
Speaker 3: I don't believe that people in law enforcement wake up

717
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 3: every day wanting to f with people. And I also

718
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,439
Speaker 3: don't believe that people that work in ICE want wake

719
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 3: up every morning wanting to up with people either. I

720
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 3: think they've been giving a mandate by an administration that

721
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,839
Speaker 3: has no regard for our personal liberties. That's what I think.

722
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I have heard. I'm sure you've heard these two.

723
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 4: There are some cases in Minnesota where some law enforcement

724
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 4: people who are you know, out of uniform have been

725
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 4: approached by ICE agents and been treated entertained and called

726
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 4: awful names. So I can't imagine. And of course there's

727
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 4: always a bad apple on both sides and in every

728
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 4: every group. In this particular instance, I feel like I'm

729
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 4: hearing more and more stories about that, and it's it's alarming.

730
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 3: And I think that, you know, people should be very

731
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 3: alarmed about the erosion of the First Amendment, the second

732
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:53,760
Speaker 3: now now the second Amendments being question, the fourth Amendment,

733
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 3: and the fourteenth Amendment, even your fifth and sixth actually, I.

734
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 4: Mean some of them. You have to remind me of them,

735
00:41:59,120 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 4: because I.

736
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 3: Know, yeah, now, you know, I think people should be

737
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 3: concerned about the you know, the erosion of the Bill

738
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 3: of Rights basically, and the first amendments of our constitution,

739
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 3: the first ten amendments of our Constitution are, you know

740
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:17,719
Speaker 3: what the founding fathers. I'm going to go on a

741
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:22,359
Speaker 3: tangent of our country. And you know, I'm not like,

742
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 3: I'm not succumbing at you from like a political perspective,

743
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 3: but I believe that the United States of America has

744
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 3: the best constitution in the on the planet, and we

745
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 3: have to live up to it. That's what we do

746
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,760
Speaker 3: as Americans. We live up to that constitution. We don't

747
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 3: carve out pieces we don't like and ignore it and go, well,

748
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 3: that's not good today, No, it's good every day every day.

749
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 5: Something that I think is really interesting about this message

750
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 5: is that I think it really speaks to what I

751
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 5: see as a really important conflict or interesting conflict that

752
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 5: happens within law enforcement. That's it attracts people who genuinely

753
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 5: do want to protect, serve, and it also attracts people

754
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 5: who are looking for out a way to kind of

755
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 5: have an outlet for any kind of power what we're having, and.

756
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 3: Who maybe were we had a weak upbringing and felt

757
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 3: powerless their whole life, and now they're like, well, I'll

758
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 3: get a badge and I'm going to be you know, powerful,

759
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 3: and you know whatnot I do agree.

760
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 5: With that, but what makes me kind of really upset.

761
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 5: And what I think is an important point about this

762
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 5: message is I feel like the way that the system

763
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 5: is set up right now makes it so that people

764
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 5: like Jesse, who DMed us, who do go in it

765
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:34,879
Speaker 5: for the right reasons and are really in here because

766
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 5: they care about people and want to uphold kind of

767
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 5: our shared civil values, are driven out of the profession

768
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 5: because they can't take the abuse that they're seeing and

769
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 5: the culture. And I think it's really important that people

770
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,320
Speaker 5: like Jesse kind of do speak up about that because

771
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 5: it gives a really unique perspective, and I think draws

772
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 5: attention to this issue of kind of how the culture

773
00:43:56,239 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 5: can kind of facilitate one sort of dynamic said of

774
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 5: the one that ultimately is what I think most people

775
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 5: who are attracted to law enforcement get in there to do.

776
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:08,440
Speaker 3: Right now, I think you're one hundred percent right. I

777
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,839
Speaker 3: think there are Listen, if you're a baker, there's really

778
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 3: bad bakers out there. Maybe not people in any profession

779
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 3: you're in. I think there's good and bad. Unfortunately, for

780
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 3: law enforcement it's so well, it's so highlighted because you're

781
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,799
Speaker 3: only supposed to be good, right, right and so, and

782
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 3: it's also so public. Everybody's filming, everybody's everybody's looking. But

783
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 3: you know, it's it's very important for these people that

784
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 3: are filming to keep doing so. I mean, really, are

785
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 3: the unsung heroes in my eyes, your unsung heroes, keep

786
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 3: those keep those cameras rolling. In my opinion, yeah, absolutely.

787
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 3: And one other thing that.

788
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:49,320
Speaker 2: Stuck out about this damn from Jesse is I wonder

789
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 2: if any of their time in law enforcement was as

790
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 2: a correctionals officer, because they mentioned the coworkers instigating situations

791
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 2: with inmates, which just a context in all things is key.

792
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 2: It's such a micro cosm of Yeah, I mean, prisons

793
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 2: are a microcosm of a lot of things, huh.

794
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,280
Speaker 3: They are. And you know, in prisons you've got inmates

795
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 3: your fault. You're surrounded by people that have been convicted

796
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:19,800
Speaker 3: and many times of often violent crimes.

797
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 4: Right.

798
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 3: I feel like corrections officers are already kind of like

799
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 3: on guard a little bit like with with things, you know,

800
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:30,279
Speaker 3: a little bit maybe a little bit more stern, more aggressive,

801
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:34,439
Speaker 3: you know, not so willing to turn a blind eye

802
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 3: to things, right, I.

803
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:43,200
Speaker 2: Think there has to there's a line for sure, But

804
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,919
Speaker 2: you also can, as you said, turn a blind eye

805
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 2: because if you are a corrections officer and you are

806
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 2: out numbered necessarily it's not a one to one ratio

807
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 2: in any prison obviously, and so you know, things can

808
00:45:57,200 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 2: escalate so quickly.

809
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 4: Could I just added, if you I suggest everyone watch

810
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 4: The Alabama Solution if you want to see a little

811
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 4: bit of what we're talking about, because that was an

812
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 4: eye opening documentary that is nominated, by the way, I

813
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:13,439
Speaker 4: might add, is it really all?

814
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 3: It's very sad, It's it's hard to watch. I watched it.

815
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 3: It's very hard to watch.

816
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's.

817
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 3: Person can listen. I nobody wants to go to prison,

818
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:28,319
Speaker 3: right but this documentary paints a picture and it is

819
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:31,719
Speaker 3: almost it's well, actually, no, it is third world. It's

820
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 3: one hundred percent third world, and it's very raincheal, and

821
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 3: it's very unfair and it's very it's just not a

822
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 3: good thing.

823
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 2: M M. Well, listen, do stick around because coming up

824
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 2: at the top of the hour, we have a deep

825
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 2: dive into the Zodiac Killer and an update in.

826
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 3: The off Pair case. Keep it here True Crime Tonight.

827
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 3: This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk

828
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 3: true crime all the time. I'm body moving and I'm

829
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 3: here with all these produced I'm so world. I'm the

830
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 3: only person that's not a producer here here with Courtney Armstrong,

831
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 3: Taha how Is, and Ava Kaplan. Don't forget. If you

832
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:19,839
Speaker 3: miss any part of tonight's show, you can always catch

833
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 3: the podcast. It will be uploaded right after the live show.

834
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:24,720
Speaker 3: And we also want to hear from you, so download

835
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 3: the iHeartRadio app, hit the little microphone, leave us a

836
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:29,359
Speaker 3: talk back and boom You're on the show. And you

837
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 3: can also find us on our social media. You can

838
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,319
Speaker 3: send us a little DM at True Crime tonight show

839
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:37,280
Speaker 3: on TikTok and Instagram, and if you want to use Facebook,

840
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 3: just look for True Crime Tonight. Later in the show,

841
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,400
Speaker 3: I'm going to be doing a Zodiac deep dive. It

842
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 3: is probably one of the most fascinating and you know,

843
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 3: interesting cold cases in American history. So stay tuned for that.

844
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 3: But now, Courtney, you're gonna give us an update on

845
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 3: everything we're going to be following this week. What do

846
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 3: you got, Well, it's going to be a busy week.

847
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:01,799
Speaker 2: So here's top line of two trials that are kind

848
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 2: of top of all of our minds. So the first

849
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:08,760
Speaker 2: is the Alexander Brothers. A federal jury in New York

850
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 2: has been seated and this is going to be a

851
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 2: really high profile sex trafficking trial, interestingly, in the very

852
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 2: same courtroom as Sean de Decombs. So the Alexander Brothers,

853
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 2: they're accused of sexually assaulting multiple women. This happened over

854
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 2: the course of a decade of abuse is being alleged

855
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 2: and Oriental and a Lawn are the three brothers, and

856
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 2: they're very high profile real estate and business figures and

857
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:45,800
Speaker 2: they're accused of using that wealth and stature to lure

858
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 2: women to parties. Offering up sort of vacation destinations and hey,

859
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:56,719
Speaker 2: come with me to luxury events. And the prosecution what

860
00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 2: they're alleging is that once at these too good to

861
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 2: be true sounding events, these victims, these women were drugged

862
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:08,319
Speaker 2: and sexually assaulted.

863
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 3: And the case is really layered.

864
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 2: It involves multiple federal as well as multiple state charges,

865
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 2: and it goes across a bunch of different jurisdictions, so

866
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:29,040
Speaker 2: locations Manhattan, the Hampton's, Las Vegas, Aspin, and a Caribbean

867
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:30,280
Speaker 2: cruise as well.

868
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 3: And on top of all of that, there are also

869
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:40,799
Speaker 3: civil lawsuits that are being filed by alleged victims. I mean,

870
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 3: I don't know if you remember from years ago seeing

871
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 3: particularly the real estate Brothers. I mean they were on

872
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:54,399
Speaker 3: the cover of magazines for just breaking records of all

873
00:49:54,440 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 3: sorts in real estate. Yeah, they were apparently tycoons. Yeah,

874
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:01,720
Speaker 3: in this arena.

875
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 4: That's right.

876
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:08,799
Speaker 2: So the jury, it's totally evenly split six men and

877
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:14,319
Speaker 2: six women, and the selection was completed on Friday, and

878
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 2: it's expected to last about a month, so we will

879
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 2: have plenty of time to be following it. And I'll

880
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 2: be very curious, what you know, I'll be very curious

881
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 2: how the prosecutors present the case. And I don't know,

882
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:35,840
Speaker 2: do you guys think there's any added pressure with what

883
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:37,320
Speaker 2: happened with Sean Dedycomb?

884
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:37,719
Speaker 1: I do.

885
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:42,839
Speaker 3: I actually think there's added pressure from epscene. Actually, oh,

886
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:46,720
Speaker 3: you know, I feel like they're trying to like hide,

887
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:48,880
Speaker 3: you know they're doing I feel like they're doing everything

888
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 3: possible in order to hide what's going on with epscene

889
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:55,720
Speaker 3: and also to be like, you know, listen, we actually

890
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:59,200
Speaker 3: do care, right, we really do. So we're gonna we're

891
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 3: gonna throw the look at these guys.

892
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel I agree with you.

893
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 3: I have no proof of that. If this is just

894
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 3: like what I think, I just feel like it's optics

895
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:10,439
Speaker 3: at this point.

896
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, they want to set an example, like, yeah, it

897
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 4: feels like Diddy didn't get as much of it. He

898
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 4: kind of punished me, he deserved. Epstein is kind of

899
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 4: brushed the sideline. Let's let's show how we can be

900
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:23,240
Speaker 4: tough on people who.

901
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:27,239
Speaker 3: Do describe these people, right, this isn't Epstein. It's not

902
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:30,239
Speaker 3: going to put any anyone in power, you know, in

903
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:35,560
Speaker 3: any horrible light, you know, like Epstein would. Uh, it's

904
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:37,719
Speaker 3: not Ditty, it's not somebody with lots of you know,

905
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:39,759
Speaker 3: I don't. I just feel lots of influence. Although these

906
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 3: guys might have a lot of influence, I just don't know.

907
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:44,400
Speaker 5: I also feel like if I were in the prosecutor's

908
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:47,520
Speaker 5: office or in the DA's office, the fact that or

909
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 5: in one of the brothers hired literally Diddy's lawyers, to

910
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 5: true these are the exact same lawyers that got me

911
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 5: off of his the most serious charges, I feel like

912
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 5: I'd have a grudge, Like I would take it person

913
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:03,319
Speaker 5: I'd be kind of Mad'd be like, Okay, I need

914
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 5: to prove myself now that the same guy isn't going

915
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:07,719
Speaker 5: to get off with the same tricks.

916
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:11,759
Speaker 2: You know what I mean, Right, But there's also I mean,

917
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:15,439
Speaker 2: you brought up charges ava, and that's where I'm that's

918
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:18,360
Speaker 2: a little bit where my mind goes, because I feel

919
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:22,840
Speaker 2: like it's fairly agreed upon that Diddy was ultimately maybe

920
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 2: overcharged at the beginning and that's why things the result

921
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:30,359
Speaker 2: landed where it did, and that they didn't prosecute the

922
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:34,360
Speaker 2: lower hanging fruit of you know, abuse that was caught

923
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:37,120
Speaker 2: on camera and I said that was not a part

924
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 2: of the trial. So anyway, it'll be interesting for all

925
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 2: of those reasons, and if these three brothers are convicted

926
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 2: on all federal accounts, they can face fifteen years to

927
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 2: life in prison and orin and Alan, they face additional

928
00:52:55,360 --> 00:53:00,160
Speaker 2: state charges in Florida that tal does not.

929
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 5: And I was also kind of curious about the three

930
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 5: of them being charged together, so I did some digging

931
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:08,839
Speaker 5: just into how common is it that three people are

932
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:10,960
Speaker 5: kind of charged as one defendant and how does that

933
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 5: impact the case. And in terms of federal cases for

934
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 5: sex trafficking charges, it can pretty frequently involve multiple defendants

935
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 5: because it's allowed by the law in terms of if

936
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 5: everyone involved, all of the defendants were coordinating and conspiring together,

937
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 5: they can be charged together, which is what the prosecutors

938
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:36,200
Speaker 5: are alleging and will have to prove. And it's interesting

939
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:40,880
Speaker 5: because I also learned that prosecutors can sometimes charge multiple

940
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 5: family members or business partners together, which these are brothers,

941
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 5: and also two of them were in business together, so

942
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:51,880
Speaker 5: checks both of those boxes. Because when wealth influence or

943
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 5: organizational structure enable the crimes, they come from a wealthy family,

944
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 5: they have the same sorts of influence because of their jobs,

945
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:03,360
Speaker 5: and that like directly enables the crimes. That is another

946
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:06,760
Speaker 5: reason why prosecutors can charge them together. So it seems

947
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:08,640
Speaker 5: like this kind of checks all the boxes of a

948
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 5: scenario where it would be beneficial. The only risk for

949
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:13,840
Speaker 5: prosecutors is that I think the defense is going to

950
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:17,600
Speaker 5: be able to say, oh, maybe this brother did this,

951
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 5: but this brother didn't, and the defense is going to

952
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:23,359
Speaker 5: be able to kind of walk in.

953
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 3: That confuse things.

954
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:25,839
Speaker 5: Yeah.

955
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 2: I have flash to I don't know why in the

956
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 2: Wizard of Oz when you see the scarecrow when he's

957
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 2: pointing this way and that way and axactly. But that's

958
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:40,840
Speaker 2: a good point because the defense, of course, in all cases,

959
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 2: they don't need to prove a thing. They just need

960
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:46,960
Speaker 2: to and if there is a little bit of confusion,

961
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:51,800
Speaker 2: especially with three interesting well that this is a trial

962
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 2: we will be keeping a close watch on.

963
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 3: Definitely, definitely this is true crime tonight on iHeartRadio, where

964
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:01,640
Speaker 3: we're talking through crime all the time. I'm body moving

965
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 3: and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and producer Taha Howes

966
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:08,239
Speaker 3: and producer Ava Kaplan, and we just went over the

967
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:10,759
Speaker 3: Alexander brothers and we're going to dig into something else.

968
00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:12,360
Speaker 3: What's up next, Courtney.

969
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm very shocked by this So Brendan Banfield, he

970
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:22,840
Speaker 2: is the defendant on trial this case.

971
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:26,000
Speaker 3: So yeah, to bring you up.

972
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:29,799
Speaker 2: To speed if you don't remember, Brendan Banfield was allegedly

973
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:33,400
Speaker 2: having an affair with the au pair. The two of

974
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:42,160
Speaker 2: them colluded together to kill, to murder his wife Christine Banfield.

975
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:43,440
Speaker 5: Allegedly, allegedly, allegedly.

976
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:49,759
Speaker 3: Allegedly, yes, that is being alleged exactly to kill her.

977
00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 2: And the plot that Banfield and that the affair was

978
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:59,880
Speaker 2: allegedly complicit in was to bring in a complete and

979
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:04,279
Speaker 2: total stranger, Joseph Ryan, who was also a victim of

980
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:08,560
Speaker 2: the crime and lost his life. And they they lured

981
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:12,400
Speaker 2: Joseph Ryan to the house under the guise of being

982
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 2: involved in a totally consensual sexual act with Christine Banfield.

983
00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:26,759
Speaker 2: So that's the setup. Well, guess what what Brendan Banfield

984
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:30,440
Speaker 2: is expected to testify in his own defense.

985
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 3: Wow, you know what that means? He opens himself up

986
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:43,640
Speaker 3: to cross yep. Oh, And that's that's many reasons why

987
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:47,719
Speaker 3: the defendants take the fifth right, your fifth Amendment, your

988
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:50,719
Speaker 3: right to remain silent and not to say things that

989
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:52,359
Speaker 3: you know could be used in a court of law

990
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:57,120
Speaker 3: against you. Is because across because oftentimes you'll get like,

991
00:56:57,520 --> 00:57:03,200
Speaker 3: you know, flustered, and you'll have some consistency inconsistencies. Wow,

992
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:05,640
Speaker 3: I can't even speak. Oh wow, So he's.

993
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:08,560
Speaker 4: Going to take and he played the fifth early on,

994
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:12,240
Speaker 4: didn't he? I feel like we talked about that. Uh.

995
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:15,640
Speaker 3: I feel like I know that Michael McKee he took

996
00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 3: the fifth.

997
00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 4: Okay, okay, yeah, okay, Wow. I might be getting my

998
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 4: cases mixed up, but I'd love to know what what

999
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:26,720
Speaker 4: Jared thinks about that when he's here with Let's ask him.

1000
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:30,960
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I'll be so curious as a prosecutor, like

1001
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 2: does he juice up when that's happening?

1002
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 3: I bet you, I bet you. It's every prosecutor's like,

1003
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:43,520
Speaker 3: you know, like questions, you know, but you know that

1004
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:47,360
Speaker 3: in trial, in when they prepare for trials, you know

1005
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:52,600
Speaker 3: that they're running through questions to him. You know that

1006
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:55,240
Speaker 3: they think the prosecutors might ask so that he's not

1007
00:57:55,440 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 3: so you know, you know, taken aback by my things. Wow. Interesting.

1008
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:01,960
Speaker 3: I will believe it.

1009
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:05,919
Speaker 5: When I see it, because I remember Brian Walsh said

1010
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:08,160
Speaker 5: he was going to testify in his trial. Brian Walsh,

1011
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:11,720
Speaker 5: she was convicted of murdering his wife Anna Walsh very

1012
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:14,280
Speaker 5: similar situation. He said he was going to testify in

1013
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:16,520
Speaker 5: his trial, and then the day of last minute, he

1014
00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 5: was like, no, never mind, and then they just went

1015
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 5: straight to closing arguments. So I'm hoping that doesn't happen

1016
00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:24,760
Speaker 5: because I would just be so curious to kind of

1017
00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:27,760
Speaker 5: hear what Brandon the defendant has to say about this

1018
00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:28,480
Speaker 5: whole situation.

1019
00:58:29,200 --> 00:58:32,920
Speaker 3: Do you guys think he's going to throw the nanny

1020
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 3: under the bus or do you think he's going to

1021
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:35,880
Speaker 3: deny any kind of knowledge at all?

1022
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 4: I think so. I think he's going to blame a

1023
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:41,920
Speaker 4: lot of it on her. She seduced and made me

1024
00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:45,240
Speaker 4: do these things. I didn't want this. That's my feeling.

1025
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:48,960
Speaker 2: But what do you think, Courtney, Yes, I absolutely think

1026
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:53,320
Speaker 2: he is taking the stand in order to trash the

1027
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:57,880
Speaker 2: Awe pair's credibility, which I mean, she's done a decent

1028
00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 2: enough job of doing herself at some points of her testimony,

1029
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:06,960
Speaker 2: even though a lot of and we spoke about this

1030
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:10,439
Speaker 2: with Jared last week, I believe, but there were there

1031
00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:15,080
Speaker 2: were inconsistencies, and there were questions of her character. However,

1032
00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:17,880
Speaker 2: a lot of every you know, a lot of what

1033
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:23,800
Speaker 2: she's saying also ties into other verifiable things like phone records,

1034
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:27,360
Speaker 2: like call logs, you know, all of the above.

1035
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:31,040
Speaker 4: Putting there in the bedroom, all those little things like

1036
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:34,000
Speaker 4: it closed in the closet, it just feels like, oh,

1037
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:37,240
Speaker 4: she's doing all of these things. Look, this was her choice,

1038
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:37,880
Speaker 4: but go ahead.

1039
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:42,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is heartbreaking. Oh sorry, Evan, what you

1040
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:45,120
Speaker 2: were saying, Corney is true about it. Seems like what

1041
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:48,320
Speaker 2: the O pair Juliana has been saying has for the

1042
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:52,040
Speaker 2: most part been corroborated with the evidence, both the forensic

1043
00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:55,200
Speaker 2: crime scene and evidence and the digital evidence. And there's

1044
00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:57,240
Speaker 2: two days in court that we've missed since our last

1045
00:59:57,240 --> 00:59:59,920
Speaker 2: time reporting on it, and almost all of this was

1046
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:03,360
Speaker 2: all the testimony. It was honestly pretty boring, but just

1047
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:06,440
Speaker 2: kind of back and forth about the digital evidence and

1048
01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:11,320
Speaker 2: can the prosecution and the jury definitively say, yes, this

1049
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:14,520
Speaker 2: was the O pair and Brandon Banfield making this fake

1050
01:00:15,040 --> 01:00:18,920
Speaker 2: BDSM account and doing it, or is it possible that Christine,

1051
01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:21,640
Speaker 2: the wife the victim, was actually doing it herself.

1052
01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:23,360
Speaker 5: And that's kind of the question that's been at the

1053
01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:24,080
Speaker 5: heart of it.

1054
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:27,080
Speaker 3: Right, And don't forget they made those messages and whatnot

1055
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:31,479
Speaker 3: on that fet life account when they knew Christine was home, right,

1056
01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:35,320
Speaker 3: So that is that is that creating reasonable doubt with

1057
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:40,440
Speaker 3: the jury. That's what's important here. Interesting, Yeah, right, because

1058
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:41,000
Speaker 3: you couldn't.

1059
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:43,520
Speaker 2: I mean, just because something's on my computer, it doesn't

1060
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:47,720
Speaker 2: mean that my husband, my neighbor or the dog you know,

1061
01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:49,880
Speaker 2: didn't type some things out on a keyboard.

1062
01:00:50,120 --> 01:00:52,800
Speaker 5: Also, this is neither here nor there, but the fact

1063
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:57,240
Speaker 5: that what I believe was that this defendant and the

1064
01:00:57,560 --> 01:00:59,840
Speaker 5: pair made this account and made her use her name

1065
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:03,760
Speaker 5: Nostasia nine as in, like the main character in Fifty

1066
01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:08,360
Speaker 5: Shades of Gray. I'm like, could you pick a more

1067
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:14,360
Speaker 5: corny stereotypical like BDSM like it just if that from

1068
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:16,600
Speaker 5: detail for some reason just makes me so mess.

1069
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:21,760
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, well something that makes me mad and

1070
01:01:21,920 --> 01:01:26,480
Speaker 2: actually hurts my heart. This was testimony that happened on Thursday,

1071
01:01:28,040 --> 01:01:33,080
Speaker 2: and it was a victim services employee, Sally.

1072
01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:35,680
Speaker 3: Fayees and uh.

1073
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:40,960
Speaker 2: They said in an interview that a detective heard the

1074
01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:45,600
Speaker 2: Banfield's younger daughter asked the au pair Juliana, can I

1075
01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:51,680
Speaker 2: call you mommy now? Oh my gosh, and also said

1076
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:54,840
Speaker 2: are you going to marry my daddy, to which the

1077
01:01:54,880 --> 01:01:58,600
Speaker 2: au pair Juliana replied, I wish Oh.

1078
01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:02,120
Speaker 4: So bad.

1079
01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:04,680
Speaker 3: I mean, and these poor children.

1080
01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:09,320
Speaker 2: Their mother is dead, their father is on trial to

1081
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:11,400
Speaker 2: potentially go away for the rest of his life. And

1082
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 2: the au pair who would have taken care of them

1083
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:17,200
Speaker 2: in their very young lives, you know, she's gone from

1084
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:17,919
Speaker 2: their lives too.

1085
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:23,360
Speaker 3: So it's just terrible. But we will continue watching this, Yes,

1086
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:25,880
Speaker 3: for sure, We're definitely going to be continuing to follow

1087
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:29,240
Speaker 3: this case. This is True Crime Tonight, and coming up next,

1088
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:33,400
Speaker 3: we're still diving into the Zodiac Killer and why this

1089
01:02:33,440 --> 01:02:36,080
Speaker 3: case may never be solved. Keep it right here, True

1090
01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:38,360
Speaker 3: Crime Tonight, We're talking true crime all the time.

1091
01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:53,240
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We are

1092
01:02:53,240 --> 01:02:57,040
Speaker 2: talking true crime all the time. I'm Courtney Armstrong. I

1093
01:02:57,080 --> 01:03:00,320
Speaker 2: am here with a body moving and our beloved stepany

1094
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:07,120
Speaker 2: Lydecker is at Sundance and the documentary Murder one oh one.

1095
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:10,960
Speaker 2: The first episode of the three episode documentary we'll be

1096
01:03:11,080 --> 01:03:11,800
Speaker 2: premiering there.

1097
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:13,160
Speaker 3: We're so excited.

1098
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:16,760
Speaker 2: Also exciting is that body and I get to be

1099
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:20,480
Speaker 2: joined with not just our nighttime producer Taha, but our

1100
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:25,800
Speaker 2: daytime producer Ava, So it's super special. And listen, don't

1101
01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:27,720
Speaker 2: forget if you've missed any part of the show at all,

1102
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:30,120
Speaker 2: You can always grab us as a podcast and we

1103
01:03:30,160 --> 01:03:32,800
Speaker 2: want to hear from you always, so get with us

1104
01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:35,280
Speaker 2: on socials. We are at True Crime Tonight show on

1105
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:38,960
Speaker 2: TikTok and Instagram and True Crime Tonight on Facebook and

1106
01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:42,920
Speaker 2: now drum roll, the time has finally arrived and body

1107
01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:46,000
Speaker 2: is going to give us everything we need to know

1108
01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:47,160
Speaker 2: about the Zodiac Killer.

1109
01:03:47,480 --> 01:03:47,720
Speaker 4: Right.

1110
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:49,760
Speaker 3: So, there's a reason we're talking about this, and I'll

1111
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:52,960
Speaker 3: get to that. But the Zodiac Killer is probably one

1112
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:56,520
Speaker 3: of the most famous serial killers in the world, and

1113
01:03:56,560 --> 01:03:59,560
Speaker 3: it's an open case, so it remains like in our

1114
01:04:00,760 --> 01:04:04,440
Speaker 3: open like culture, like it's part of who we are, right. So,

1115
01:04:04,520 --> 01:04:08,440
Speaker 3: the Zodiac Killer, he's an unidentified serial killer who murdered

1116
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:12,640
Speaker 3: at least five people in northern California between nineteen sixty

1117
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:15,840
Speaker 3: eight nineteen sixty nine. And what he's really famous for

1118
01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:20,000
Speaker 3: is sending these letters. They were taunting, they were cryptic,

1119
01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:24,800
Speaker 3: They contain secret codes that are called ciphers, and you know,

1120
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:29,960
Speaker 3: they often were signed with like distinctive crosshairs symbol and

1121
01:04:30,080 --> 01:04:34,320
Speaker 3: starting with the phrase this is the Zodiac speaking. Authorities

1122
01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:37,600
Speaker 3: have confirmed that there were seven victims in total, with

1123
01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:40,760
Speaker 3: five of them being fatalities, and there were two survivors.

1124
01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:43,640
Speaker 3: The two survivors, of course, were able to describe what

1125
01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:46,520
Speaker 3: happened and who they saw and what the person was wearing.

1126
01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:48,520
Speaker 3: And I'm going to get into all that, you know.

1127
01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:51,680
Speaker 3: Throughout the infamous letters, though the Zodiac has written, he

1128
01:04:52,120 --> 01:04:55,840
Speaker 3: claims a total of thirty seven victims, but again there's

1129
01:04:55,920 --> 01:05:01,360
Speaker 3: only seven confirmed, five confirmed deaths. So the Zodiac in

1130
01:05:01,480 --> 01:05:04,360
Speaker 3: some of these letters that he wrote, he also sent

1131
01:05:04,680 --> 01:05:10,560
Speaker 3: four main cryptograms, okay, and cryptograms are coded messages where

1132
01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:14,240
Speaker 3: you know, the original text is hidden by replacing letters

1133
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:17,160
Speaker 3: or symbols using a set of rules, you know, usually

1134
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:19,720
Speaker 3: to keep the message secret. You guys have all seen

1135
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:22,360
Speaker 3: the Christmas Story, I'm assuming and when you know, he

1136
01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:25,680
Speaker 3: gets the little little decoder thing out and he decodes

1137
01:05:25,760 --> 01:05:30,960
Speaker 3: Ovaltine's do you know what I know? That's a Instagram? Okay,

1138
01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:37,240
Speaker 3: like Christmas Story. I'll shoot your eye out. Yeah, I

1139
01:05:37,360 --> 01:05:41,280
Speaker 3: just told Okay. So uh, he sent four main ones,

1140
01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:45,560
Speaker 3: and two of them, which is called Z four eight

1141
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:49,480
Speaker 3: and Z thirty have been solved. Z thirteen and Z

1142
01:05:49,720 --> 01:05:54,040
Speaker 3: thirty two remain unsolved. Okay, So Z stands for Zodiac

1143
01:05:54,320 --> 01:05:57,360
Speaker 3: and then four oh eight in that you know stands

1144
01:05:57,360 --> 01:06:00,520
Speaker 3: for the number of characters, and you'll notice Z four

1145
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:02,560
Speaker 3: O eight and Z thirty have been solved, but Z

1146
01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:06,120
Speaker 3: thirteen and Z thirty two remain unsolved, and that's largely

1147
01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:09,480
Speaker 3: because they're too short. They're too short to find a

1148
01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:11,520
Speaker 3: key to decrypt the code.

1149
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:15,080
Speaker 4: Okay, so the shorter it is, the more challenge order

1150
01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:15,560
Speaker 4: it is.

1151
01:06:15,880 --> 01:06:19,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, the cryptogram Z thirteen, though, is likely the most

1152
01:06:19,040 --> 01:06:22,560
Speaker 3: important one because it's said to contain his name. Okay,

1153
01:06:22,960 --> 01:06:25,000
Speaker 3: so I'm gonna get into all that, but this is

1154
01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:28,520
Speaker 3: just a setup. Over twenty five hundred suspects have been

1155
01:06:28,560 --> 01:06:32,400
Speaker 3: investigated without charges, and the case remains open with the

1156
01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:34,440
Speaker 3: FBI and California law enforcement.

1157
01:06:34,520 --> 01:06:36,919
Speaker 5: Okay, buddy, I had a question about this because when

1158
01:06:37,080 --> 01:06:39,320
Speaker 5: I knew you were going to be covering that this

1159
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:41,280
Speaker 5: and you referred to it as a cold case, I

1160
01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:44,320
Speaker 5: was kind of confused because I remember seeing some guy

1161
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:46,640
Speaker 5: going viral, like I want to say a year or

1162
01:06:46,680 --> 01:06:49,320
Speaker 5: two ago, where it was like they found the Zodiac killer,

1163
01:06:49,640 --> 01:06:52,440
Speaker 5: this is him. It was like screenshots from his Facebook

1164
01:06:52,560 --> 01:06:53,280
Speaker 5: well of.

1165
01:06:54,120 --> 01:06:56,560
Speaker 3: A lot of people say that they've on I'm going

1166
01:06:56,640 --> 01:07:00,479
Speaker 3: to get into that stand by Okay. So the reason

1167
01:07:00,520 --> 01:07:03,040
Speaker 3: we're talking about it right now though, is that over Christmas,

1168
01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:06,360
Speaker 3: an amateur sleuth and self taught cobreaker his name is

1169
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:11,120
Speaker 3: Alex Barber, claims he has used artificial, intelligent, and exhaustive

1170
01:07:11,160 --> 01:07:16,000
Speaker 3: crypto analysis to solve the zodiac's elusive Z thirteen cipher,

1171
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:18,960
Speaker 3: which is said to contain his name right, and in

1172
01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:22,360
Speaker 3: doing so, he identified the same suspect in the Black

1173
01:07:22,480 --> 01:07:26,360
Speaker 3: Dahlia murder. Like, isn't that crazy. So basically, this guy

1174
01:07:26,400 --> 01:07:29,160
Speaker 3: is saying that the one of the suspects in the

1175
01:07:29,160 --> 01:07:32,560
Speaker 3: Black Dahlia murder, which is a very old murder, very famous,

1176
01:07:33,160 --> 01:07:37,240
Speaker 3: very interesting. In fact, we should cover that case is

1177
01:07:37,320 --> 01:07:39,360
Speaker 3: tied to also is also a zodiac.

1178
01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:41,320
Speaker 4: Now that's a crazy one. And it's such a funny

1179
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:45,040
Speaker 4: coincidence that we talk about the Black Dahlia because Doron

1180
01:07:45,120 --> 01:07:48,680
Speaker 4: o'fair is going to be coming tomorrow and I told

1181
01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:50,439
Speaker 4: him there's a case I'm dying to talk about. We've

1182
01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:54,080
Speaker 4: never covered the Black Dahlia, and he said, I'd love

1183
01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:55,520
Speaker 4: to do it, So we're going to go into that

1184
01:07:55,560 --> 01:07:57,760
Speaker 4: one next. So we'll keep that one in the back

1185
01:07:57,800 --> 01:07:58,760
Speaker 4: of our mind.

1186
01:07:59,120 --> 01:08:01,320
Speaker 5: So it's the same like when he put in the

1187
01:08:01,400 --> 01:08:03,200
Speaker 5: When he saw the code, a name came up, and

1188
01:08:03,240 --> 01:08:06,560
Speaker 5: this is my name of someone who's also a Psyche's interesting.

1189
01:08:06,960 --> 01:08:10,120
Speaker 3: So but here's the thing though, there's there's critics of this, right.

1190
01:08:10,200 --> 01:08:13,760
Speaker 3: So critics note that neither police departments have confirmed the claims,

1191
01:08:13,800 --> 01:08:18,400
Speaker 3: and skepticism remains high amongst true crime researchers given the

1192
01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:22,640
Speaker 3: vast differences between the two crimes, and there's no corroborated

1193
01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:26,519
Speaker 3: forensic evidence stating. So however, there are people that say

1194
01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:30,360
Speaker 3: that this guy is spot on, including former detectives and

1195
01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:35,080
Speaker 3: x NSA mathematicians. They all call the evidence irrefutable. So

1196
01:08:35,120 --> 01:08:38,040
Speaker 3: it's interesting. Wow, laying all that out there, I'm gonna

1197
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:41,560
Speaker 3: tell you a little bit about the victims, Okay, of

1198
01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:44,679
Speaker 3: of the Zodiac. Okay, this real quick.

1199
01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:47,000
Speaker 5: That's really that's really interesting to me because my fear

1200
01:08:47,040 --> 01:08:48,960
Speaker 5: would be like if he was teasing, his name was

1201
01:08:48,960 --> 01:08:51,000
Speaker 5: in it, and he's just like his whole thing is

1202
01:08:51,040 --> 01:08:53,760
Speaker 5: just playing with people and mocking people. Then we would

1203
01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:55,439
Speaker 5: decode it and it would be like my name is

1204
01:08:55,479 --> 01:08:58,639
Speaker 5: like peepe pooh pooh, or like you know what I mean. Right,

1205
01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:00,040
Speaker 5: So I'm glad maybe that's.

1206
01:09:01,479 --> 01:09:05,519
Speaker 3: I tend to be on the skeptic side, because you know,

1207
01:09:05,560 --> 01:09:08,680
Speaker 3: you were asking about this guy that Gary that you know,

1208
01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:11,840
Speaker 3: everybody thought was was the Zodiac that they said a

1209
01:09:11,880 --> 01:09:13,720
Speaker 3: year and a half ago. It turned out to be

1210
01:09:13,760 --> 01:09:17,719
Speaker 3: false because everybody thinks they saw the z thirteen, nobody

1211
01:09:17,800 --> 01:09:22,080
Speaker 3: has yet. So the victims it all started. It all

1212
01:09:22,120 --> 01:09:27,880
Speaker 3: started December twentieth, nineteen sixty eight, in Venicia, California, or

1213
01:09:27,920 --> 01:09:31,800
Speaker 3: was it Beneka. I don't even know how to pronounce it. Venisia, California.

1214
01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:35,879
Speaker 3: David Faraday, he's seventeen years old, and Betty Lou Jensen,

1215
01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:40,679
Speaker 3: she's sixteen years old. They were ambushed while parked. David

1216
01:09:40,800 --> 01:09:46,479
Speaker 3: was shot and once in the head and Betty Lou

1217
01:09:46,840 --> 01:09:50,120
Speaker 3: was shot five times why trying to flee. And this

1218
01:09:50,280 --> 01:09:57,559
Speaker 3: is whyly considered Zodiac's first confirmed attack. Okay, so just

1219
01:09:57,720 --> 01:10:03,200
Speaker 3: shortly after seven months later, on July fourth, nineteen sixty nine,

1220
01:10:03,680 --> 01:10:06,599
Speaker 3: Darlene Farrin, she was twenty two and she survived initially

1221
01:10:07,320 --> 01:10:11,840
Speaker 3: and Michael Mago he was nineteen. He totally survived. They

1222
01:10:11,880 --> 01:10:16,759
Speaker 3: were shot in Vallejo. Zodiac fired into their car, left

1223
01:10:16,960 --> 01:10:18,360
Speaker 3: then returned to shoot again.

1224
01:10:19,680 --> 01:10:22,400
Speaker 5: Oh, darling, you know who this is reminding me of sorry,

1225
01:10:22,880 --> 01:10:25,000
Speaker 5: the son of Sam m seems so similar.

1226
01:10:25,080 --> 01:10:27,760
Speaker 3: Absolutely, a lot of people say that, a lot of

1227
01:10:27,760 --> 01:10:33,160
Speaker 3: people say that, Yep, Darlene died five hours later and

1228
01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:38,000
Speaker 3: Michael survived and he gave a description. A key detail

1229
01:10:38,680 --> 01:10:41,479
Speaker 3: in this instance was that Zodiac called the police to

1230
01:10:41,560 --> 01:10:44,880
Speaker 3: report the crime, linking himself to the murders. And of

1231
01:10:44,920 --> 01:10:48,800
Speaker 3: course Michael, a survivor, provided a description that shaped the

1232
01:10:48,840 --> 01:10:53,479
Speaker 3: future composite sketches that were released. So the next one

1233
01:10:53,720 --> 01:10:56,599
Speaker 3: was Celia Sheppard, she was twenty two and she passed away.

1234
01:10:57,280 --> 01:11:00,280
Speaker 3: And Brian Hartnell, he was twenty and he survived. This

1235
01:11:00,360 --> 01:11:05,480
Speaker 3: happened two months later. So it's escalating, right, seven months,

1236
01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:09,120
Speaker 3: there's there's in between these cooling off periods. Things are escalating.

1237
01:11:09,920 --> 01:11:12,519
Speaker 3: So it was two months later in September, and this

1238
01:11:12,600 --> 01:11:16,479
Speaker 3: happened in Napa County. Zodiac, now this is where we

1239
01:11:16,479 --> 01:11:18,960
Speaker 3: get the description of his outfit. Of his outfits, he

1240
01:11:19,040 --> 01:11:22,840
Speaker 3: was very theatrical. He wore a black executioner style hood

1241
01:11:23,040 --> 01:11:24,960
Speaker 3: with his little symbol which was like kind of like

1242
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:28,080
Speaker 3: a target. It was like a circle with lines through it.

1243
01:11:29,400 --> 01:11:33,320
Speaker 3: He yeah, he's he wore this hood and he bound

1244
01:11:33,400 --> 01:11:39,439
Speaker 3: the couple and stabbed them. Celia died. Cecilia died uh

1245
01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:43,679
Speaker 3: two days later, and Hartnell survived and provided critical details

1246
01:11:43,720 --> 01:11:47,640
Speaker 3: including the outfit and whatnot. And he also gave descriptions

1247
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:50,599
Speaker 3: that helped shape that that wanted poster that we later got.

1248
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:54,120
Speaker 4: So he's published in this whole get up.

1249
01:11:54,160 --> 01:11:57,120
Speaker 3: Like in the get up, Yeah he was. He was

1250
01:11:57,160 --> 01:11:59,519
Speaker 3: in an outfit. He was. He had an outfit on

1251
01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:02,840
Speaker 3: like a uh an executioners hood and there were like

1252
01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:04,320
Speaker 3: glasses pinned to it.

1253
01:12:04,880 --> 01:12:08,759
Speaker 6: Going into their homes or these are all outside.

1254
01:12:09,600 --> 01:12:10,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, they were parked.

1255
01:12:11,439 --> 01:12:14,479
Speaker 2: That's I mean, how strange is it that he would

1256
01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:18,080
Speaker 2: dress like that? And I know, like I wonder why

1257
01:12:18,680 --> 01:12:23,639
Speaker 2: he was so unconcerned about being noticed, And I thought.

1258
01:12:23,479 --> 01:12:26,080
Speaker 3: He wanted to be noticed, right, he wanted to And

1259
01:12:26,160 --> 01:12:28,400
Speaker 3: there's a signature moment I need to get to in

1260
01:12:28,439 --> 01:12:31,960
Speaker 3: this one and on this in this case, on the

1261
01:12:32,080 --> 01:12:33,920
Speaker 3: on the car door, because they were they were in

1262
01:12:33,960 --> 01:12:38,719
Speaker 3: their car, he wrote the dates of the previous victims

1263
01:12:39,160 --> 01:12:43,519
Speaker 3: killer killings. He signed it Zodiac in them, and then

1264
01:12:43,760 --> 01:12:48,479
Speaker 3: he also put how he killed them. I'm basically proving

1265
01:12:48,600 --> 01:12:51,640
Speaker 3: it was him, right, right, It's a signature moment in

1266
01:12:51,680 --> 01:12:55,800
Speaker 3: that case. And then the final one happened less than

1267
01:12:55,800 --> 01:12:59,439
Speaker 3: a month later, on October eleventh, on a busy San

1268
01:12:59,439 --> 01:13:05,280
Speaker 3: Francisco street. So Zodiac shot Paul Stein. He was twenty

1269
01:13:05,360 --> 01:13:08,599
Speaker 3: nine years old. He was a cab driver at close range,

1270
01:13:09,160 --> 01:13:13,920
Speaker 3: and the Zodiac took a piece of Paul's shirt with him,

1271
01:13:14,439 --> 01:13:17,479
Speaker 3: all right, and then he was able to escape. Now

1272
01:13:17,520 --> 01:13:20,400
Speaker 3: this one is interesting because they were witnesses and they

1273
01:13:20,400 --> 01:13:23,439
Speaker 3: were able to describe him. And again this is how

1274
01:13:23,439 --> 01:13:26,280
Speaker 3: we get some of the composite sketches of whom Zodiac was.

1275
01:13:26,720 --> 01:13:29,320
Speaker 3: Got it okay, And then of course he wore these

1276
01:13:29,320 --> 01:13:33,200
Speaker 3: crazy outfits. These Zodiac's appearance. It buried on the crime

1277
01:13:33,400 --> 01:13:35,960
Speaker 3: in what he had been, you know, doing. But in

1278
01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:38,960
Speaker 3: most attacks, survivors described him as a white male. He

1279
01:13:38,960 --> 01:13:42,200
Speaker 3: had a stocky build. He was wearing dark clothing and

1280
01:13:42,240 --> 01:13:46,879
Speaker 3: sometimes he was wearing glasses. And during on the September

1281
01:13:46,920 --> 01:13:50,040
Speaker 3: twenty seventh stabbing, he wore the most infamous outfit, the

1282
01:13:50,080 --> 01:13:53,680
Speaker 3: executioner's hood. It had like it was black and there

1283
01:13:53,720 --> 01:13:57,160
Speaker 3: were clip on glasses, but the glasses were like clipped

1284
01:13:57,200 --> 01:14:01,520
Speaker 3: onto the fabric of the hood. This is crazy, the crazy,

1285
01:14:01,600 --> 01:14:05,880
Speaker 3: absolutely crazy, right. What he had a white cross, so

1286
01:14:05,960 --> 01:14:09,400
Speaker 3: there's a white on his chest. There was a circle

1287
01:14:10,160 --> 01:14:13,360
Speaker 3: and there was a cross there in it, and that's

1288
01:14:13,439 --> 01:14:17,080
Speaker 3: basically his his simbol, the zodiac symbol. He would sign

1289
01:14:17,600 --> 01:14:20,680
Speaker 3: all his letters with this symbol. He signed the car

1290
01:14:20,880 --> 01:14:23,720
Speaker 3: door that night with that symbol. It was like his

1291
01:14:23,840 --> 01:14:24,759
Speaker 3: secret code.

1292
01:14:26,560 --> 01:14:28,920
Speaker 4: Is it an actual Zodiac sign or is it just

1293
01:14:28,960 --> 01:14:31,640
Speaker 4: a Okay, Okay, I think it is.

1294
01:14:31,680 --> 01:14:33,920
Speaker 3: I don't think it's a sign. And then he often

1295
01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:38,000
Speaker 3: wore dark pants in a long sleeved shirt, so they

1296
01:14:38,000 --> 01:14:41,880
Speaker 3: were able to, you know, coroborate this through several different people.

1297
01:14:41,880 --> 01:14:44,800
Speaker 3: And what's interesting too about the Paul steinmerder that the

1298
01:14:44,800 --> 01:14:48,320
Speaker 3: cab driver on the city is that dispatch when they

1299
01:14:48,400 --> 01:14:51,680
Speaker 3: dispatched police. You know, of course witnesses called it in

1300
01:14:51,920 --> 01:14:54,880
Speaker 3: somebody just got shot. Dispatch had it in their mind

1301
01:14:54,920 --> 01:14:58,080
Speaker 3: that was a black mail. It was not a black male.

1302
01:14:58,560 --> 01:15:04,200
Speaker 3: And the cops actually stopped the zodiac the real Zodiac question,

1303
01:15:04,360 --> 01:15:06,400
Speaker 3: but because he wasn't a black man, they let him go.

1304
01:15:08,360 --> 01:15:10,719
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, oh man. Okay.

1305
01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:13,160
Speaker 2: So if you are just joining us, this is true

1306
01:15:13,160 --> 01:15:16,800
Speaker 2: crime tonight and body move In is walking us through

1307
01:15:16,800 --> 01:15:20,240
Speaker 2: a deep dive on the Zodiac killer, one of the

1308
01:15:20,240 --> 01:15:26,040
Speaker 2: most infamous cold cases really in our history, and so

1309
01:15:26,160 --> 01:15:31,439
Speaker 2: I'm understanding, So the big police officers actually spoke.

1310
01:15:31,560 --> 01:15:34,479
Speaker 3: How do we know that he actually that they spoke

1311
01:15:34,520 --> 01:15:37,320
Speaker 3: to the Zodiac killer. Well, stay tuned because of the

1312
01:15:37,360 --> 01:15:39,400
Speaker 3: next segment. I'm going to go through the letters that

1313
01:15:39,439 --> 01:15:42,360
Speaker 3: he wrote. And in one of those letters he made

1314
01:15:42,439 --> 01:15:45,600
Speaker 3: fun of the police for that very wow.

1315
01:15:46,520 --> 01:15:47,600
Speaker 5: Wow, that's crazy.

1316
01:15:48,160 --> 01:15:50,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, that's coming up next.

1317
01:15:50,720 --> 01:15:51,080
Speaker 1: Go ahead.

1318
01:15:51,240 --> 01:15:54,400
Speaker 5: I have a question about the one where he called

1319
01:15:54,439 --> 01:15:57,639
Speaker 5: the police officer the police saying that he did it.

1320
01:15:57,760 --> 01:16:01,920
Speaker 5: I think that was the second one. Mm hmm was

1321
01:16:01,960 --> 01:16:04,479
Speaker 5: I know this happened in the sixties, so technology is

1322
01:16:04,520 --> 01:16:08,080
Speaker 5: probably very different, But was anything ever gleaned from his

1323
01:16:08,200 --> 01:16:11,160
Speaker 5: voice or the way he speaks or that call, not.

1324
01:16:11,240 --> 01:16:13,680
Speaker 3: That I'm aware of. I don't know that if it

1325
01:16:13,720 --> 01:16:18,280
Speaker 3: was even recorded back then. This happened in nineteen sixty nine.

1326
01:16:18,360 --> 01:16:21,040
Speaker 3: This is, you know, a very very long time ago.

1327
01:16:21,080 --> 01:16:24,400
Speaker 3: But isn't it interesting though, that how he ramped up?

1328
01:16:24,880 --> 01:16:27,720
Speaker 3: So he started, and then he waited seven months, and

1329
01:16:27,760 --> 01:16:30,000
Speaker 3: then he waited two months, and then he waited less

1330
01:16:30,080 --> 01:16:32,439
Speaker 3: than a month. And I know that we've talked a

1331
01:16:32,439 --> 01:16:35,000
Speaker 3: lot about cooling off periods and if they were real

1332
01:16:35,120 --> 01:16:38,639
Speaker 3: or not, but it seems like this was escalating. And

1333
01:16:39,280 --> 01:16:41,320
Speaker 3: in one of the letters he wrote, which I'll get

1334
01:16:41,360 --> 01:16:43,439
Speaker 3: into in the next segment, he wrote to a defense

1335
01:16:43,479 --> 01:16:46,240
Speaker 3: attorney and he said that he was feeling that he

1336
01:16:46,280 --> 01:16:48,479
Speaker 3: was out of control and he needed help. And I

1337
01:16:48,520 --> 01:16:51,280
Speaker 3: feel like that's evident with this ramping up period that

1338
01:16:51,320 --> 01:16:54,360
Speaker 3: he had, and he was so brazen at the end, right,

1339
01:16:54,479 --> 01:16:58,040
Speaker 3: he attacked somebody in the middle of the city. And

1340
01:16:58,240 --> 01:17:02,479
Speaker 3: you know, in San Francisco there multiple eyewitnesses, including three

1341
01:17:02,520 --> 01:17:04,840
Speaker 3: teenage boys who were again were able to give a

1342
01:17:04,840 --> 01:17:08,599
Speaker 3: description of this man called it in and for whatever reason,

1343
01:17:09,120 --> 01:17:11,479
Speaker 3: the dispatch officer said it was a black man.

1344
01:17:12,280 --> 01:17:15,760
Speaker 4: Wow, oh my gosh, I am so on the edge

1345
01:17:15,760 --> 01:17:16,280
Speaker 4: of my seat.

1346
01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:17,680
Speaker 5: Absolutely.

1347
01:17:18,400 --> 01:17:21,160
Speaker 3: Let The key part and I want people to remember

1348
01:17:21,160 --> 01:17:23,439
Speaker 3: for the next segment is Paul Stein, the cab driver

1349
01:17:24,040 --> 01:17:27,320
Speaker 3: that Zodiac cut a piece of his shirt and took

1350
01:17:27,360 --> 01:17:29,439
Speaker 3: it with him, and I want people to remember that

1351
01:17:29,479 --> 01:17:33,080
Speaker 3: for the next segment. All right, Okay, we'll stick around.

1352
01:17:33,200 --> 01:17:36,920
Speaker 2: We have a lot more to dig into and we're

1353
01:17:36,960 --> 01:17:41,080
Speaker 2: going to continue on this lurid case of the Zodiac

1354
01:17:41,200 --> 01:17:42,639
Speaker 2: Killer when we come back.

1355
01:17:43,160 --> 01:17:58,040
Speaker 3: Keep it here True Crime Tonight. Welcome back to True

1356
01:17:58,080 --> 01:17:59,880
Speaker 3: Crime Tonight. On Iheartra.

1357
01:18:00,360 --> 01:18:04,400
Speaker 2: We're talking true crime all the time, Courtney Armstrong. I

1358
01:18:04,439 --> 01:18:09,840
Speaker 2: am here with crime analyst Body Moven and producers Taha

1359
01:18:09,880 --> 01:18:15,080
Speaker 2: and Ava, and we are knee deep in getting a

1360
01:18:15,160 --> 01:18:18,439
Speaker 2: lesson on the Zodiac Killer, one of the most infamous

1361
01:18:18,439 --> 01:18:20,519
Speaker 2: cold cases of history.

1362
01:18:20,800 --> 01:18:24,360
Speaker 3: So body, we left on a cliffhanger. We did, but

1363
01:18:24,920 --> 01:18:27,720
Speaker 3: I should for people just joining we're talking about the

1364
01:18:27,800 --> 01:18:31,400
Speaker 3: Zodiac Killer. And the Zodiac Killer is an unidentified serial

1365
01:18:31,479 --> 01:18:34,720
Speaker 3: killer who murdered at least five people in northern California

1366
01:18:34,760 --> 01:18:37,640
Speaker 3: between nineteen sixty eight and nineteen sixty nine. He is

1367
01:18:37,680 --> 01:18:42,639
Speaker 3: super famous for sending taunting, cryptic letters to newspapers and police,

1368
01:18:42,920 --> 01:18:46,479
Speaker 3: often signed with distinctive crosshair symbols and starting with the

1369
01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:50,759
Speaker 3: phrase this is the Zodiac speaking. And in this segment,

1370
01:18:50,800 --> 01:18:53,000
Speaker 3: I'm going to get to some of the letters that

1371
01:18:53,040 --> 01:18:58,240
Speaker 3: he sent. And the letters contained these ciphers. Okay, they

1372
01:18:58,360 --> 01:19:01,320
Speaker 3: are coded messages where the original text is kind of

1373
01:19:01,360 --> 01:19:05,479
Speaker 3: like replaced with symbols and other and other letters and

1374
01:19:05,520 --> 01:19:08,400
Speaker 3: whatnot that he just arbitrarily made up, kind of like

1375
01:19:08,439 --> 01:19:11,679
Speaker 3: a secret code that you have to crack. Okay, And

1376
01:19:12,000 --> 01:19:16,720
Speaker 3: there are two unsolved and two solved. Okay. The two

1377
01:19:16,880 --> 01:19:20,400
Speaker 3: solved ones are Z four oh eight and Z thirty

1378
01:19:20,760 --> 01:19:24,439
Speaker 3: and the unsolved ones are Z thirteen and Z thirty two.

1379
01:19:24,640 --> 01:19:27,920
Speaker 3: And what those numbers and letters mean is zodiac. And

1380
01:19:27,920 --> 01:19:29,880
Speaker 3: then in the case of Z four O eight four

1381
01:19:30,120 --> 01:19:32,920
Speaker 3: eight stands for the number of characters that were in

1382
01:19:32,960 --> 01:19:37,280
Speaker 3: that message. Okay, So the shorter messages Z thirteen and

1383
01:19:37,360 --> 01:19:41,799
Speaker 3: Z thirty two remain unsolved largely because they're too short

1384
01:19:41,920 --> 01:19:44,640
Speaker 3: to provide any kind of key to anybody trying to

1385
01:19:44,680 --> 01:19:47,759
Speaker 3: decipher the messages. Right, So, like usually when you're writing

1386
01:19:47,760 --> 01:19:51,240
Speaker 3: a letter, the letter A will appear a number of times, right,

1387
01:19:51,439 --> 01:19:53,760
Speaker 3: so you're able to kind of find the A through

1388
01:19:53,760 --> 01:19:56,839
Speaker 3: that kind of key. When the letter when the characters

1389
01:19:56,840 --> 01:19:59,639
Speaker 3: are so short, they just can't find that key, right,

1390
01:20:00,040 --> 01:20:03,679
Speaker 3: basically unlocked the code. Did he use the same code

1391
01:20:03,880 --> 01:20:07,040
Speaker 3: across all of his letters, No.

1392
01:20:06,960 --> 01:20:09,880
Speaker 4: He would switch them on each letter. Oh boy, yeah.

1393
01:20:10,360 --> 01:20:12,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I'm going to get to those, Okay, So

1394
01:20:12,800 --> 01:20:14,840
Speaker 3: here are some of the things that he did. Okay,

1395
01:20:14,920 --> 01:20:18,760
Speaker 3: So his notoriety came largely from these letters which he

1396
01:20:18,800 --> 01:20:20,320
Speaker 3: mailed to newspapers and police.

1397
01:20:20,400 --> 01:20:20,599
Speaker 4: Right.

1398
01:20:20,960 --> 01:20:24,200
Speaker 3: They included taunts, threats, and those ciphers that I spoke

1399
01:20:24,240 --> 01:20:28,679
Speaker 3: about he demanded publication, threatening through future killings and mocked

1400
01:20:28,760 --> 01:20:31,800
Speaker 3: law enforcement's inability to catch him. There's been a lot

1401
01:20:31,800 --> 01:20:35,040
Speaker 3: of cases that we've covered that have done that. Unibomber

1402
01:20:35,080 --> 01:20:38,559
Speaker 3: did that. Remember the manifesto he demanded that be published. Yes,

1403
01:20:39,080 --> 01:20:42,880
Speaker 3: BTK did that with his letters too, So this isn't

1404
01:20:42,920 --> 01:20:45,599
Speaker 3: like a new thing. In fact, it might have kind

1405
01:20:45,640 --> 01:20:50,320
Speaker 3: of originated or been inspired by Zodiac Oh okay. He

1406
01:20:50,439 --> 01:20:54,200
Speaker 3: sometimes included details only he would know, which proved you know,

1407
01:20:54,280 --> 01:20:58,480
Speaker 3: the authenticity of some of his letters. And his communications

1408
01:20:58,600 --> 01:21:02,960
Speaker 3: turned the investigation into a media circus, okay, because he

1409
01:21:03,000 --> 01:21:08,040
Speaker 3: would send these letters two newspapers. So the first letter,

1410
01:21:08,120 --> 01:21:10,880
Speaker 3: they call this one the cipher letters, okay, and this

1411
01:21:10,960 --> 01:21:15,080
Speaker 3: happened on July thirty first, nineteen sixty nine. And this

1412
01:21:15,200 --> 01:21:18,439
Speaker 3: letter included the first one that was ever cracked the

1413
01:21:18,640 --> 01:21:22,080
Speaker 3: Z four eight cipher. And what he did was he

1414
01:21:22,200 --> 01:21:26,519
Speaker 3: sent three He split the cipher up into three segments, okay,

1415
01:21:26,880 --> 01:21:30,040
Speaker 3: and he nailed them to different newspapers, and in order

1416
01:21:30,120 --> 01:21:33,160
Speaker 3: for police and what not to crack the code, all

1417
01:21:33,200 --> 01:21:37,920
Speaker 3: three had to publish their cipher. Oh wow, that was

1418
01:21:37,960 --> 01:21:42,639
Speaker 3: like a publicist right himself. Yeah, I mean, when you're

1419
01:21:42,640 --> 01:21:46,080
Speaker 3: thinking of like, who could this be? He was smart

1420
01:21:46,240 --> 01:21:50,160
Speaker 3: about the right again, each letter included one third of

1421
01:21:50,200 --> 01:21:53,200
Speaker 3: that four eight cipher. And guess what. It was solved

1422
01:21:53,200 --> 01:21:56,839
Speaker 3: within days by a high school teacher and his wife.

1423
01:21:58,439 --> 01:22:02,200
Speaker 3: Their names were Donald Hardened and his wife was Betty Harden.

1424
01:22:02,400 --> 01:22:08,240
Speaker 3: They solved us in four days. Isn't that? They sat

1425
01:22:08,240 --> 01:22:10,840
Speaker 3: around their kitchen table for those four days and they

1426
01:22:10,880 --> 01:22:13,439
Speaker 3: worked on this and they solved it, and they called

1427
01:22:13,520 --> 01:22:16,360
Speaker 3: the authorities immediately, and it was often, you know, the

1428
01:22:16,439 --> 01:22:21,439
Speaker 3: FBI basically confirmed like yeah, this is it? Yeah, right,

1429
01:22:21,920 --> 01:22:24,960
Speaker 3: and it was it was just a rambling. He said

1430
01:22:25,520 --> 01:22:27,800
Speaker 3: I like killing people because it is so much fun.

1431
01:22:27,840 --> 01:22:30,320
Speaker 3: It is more fun than killing wild game in the forest,

1432
01:22:30,360 --> 01:22:33,040
Speaker 3: because man is the most dangerous animal of all. And

1433
01:22:33,080 --> 01:22:36,080
Speaker 3: it went on to talk about you know, the afterlife

1434
01:22:36,120 --> 01:22:39,400
Speaker 3: and just crazy ramblings. Okay, So it didn't really give

1435
01:22:39,720 --> 01:22:43,120
Speaker 3: a lot of insight, and it did not reveal his identity.

1436
01:22:43,439 --> 01:22:47,120
Speaker 3: It has long been believed that this site, this this

1437
01:22:47,320 --> 01:22:51,000
Speaker 3: note has been inspired by This Most Dangerous Game, which

1438
01:22:51,040 --> 01:22:54,920
Speaker 3: was a short story that basically kind of was the

1439
01:22:54,960 --> 01:22:59,360
Speaker 3: plot of what this cipher revealed. A month later, in August,

1440
01:23:00,200 --> 01:23:03,600
Speaker 3: he debuted himself in the debut letter, and this was

1441
01:23:03,640 --> 01:23:06,040
Speaker 3: sent to the San Francisco Examiner, and it's the first

1442
01:23:06,080 --> 01:23:09,439
Speaker 3: time he used the Zodiac name. That's why they call

1443
01:23:09,520 --> 01:23:13,679
Speaker 3: him Zodiac. And he claimed responsibility for the first two shootings,

1444
01:23:13,720 --> 01:23:16,439
Speaker 3: and he included details only the killer would know. He

1445
01:23:16,479 --> 01:23:19,680
Speaker 3: taunted police again, criticizing their failure to catch him and

1446
01:23:19,760 --> 01:23:24,479
Speaker 3: mocking their investigative efforts while warning he's going to continue killing.

1447
01:23:24,840 --> 01:23:28,160
Speaker 3: Four days later, he sent a letter to the San

1448
01:23:28,160 --> 01:23:32,880
Speaker 3: Francisco Chronicle called the Dripping Pen Letter. He mocked the

1449
01:23:32,920 --> 01:23:35,200
Speaker 3: police for not solving the cipher. You know, he let

1450
01:23:35,280 --> 01:23:39,360
Speaker 3: these teachers do it. He couldn't do it. And he

1451
01:23:39,400 --> 01:23:42,479
Speaker 3: included the now infamous line, I like killing people because

1452
01:23:42,479 --> 01:23:45,920
Speaker 3: it's so much fun, which again was in that cipher right.

1453
01:23:46,760 --> 01:23:50,080
Speaker 3: He described the killing as preferred to hunting wild game,

1454
01:23:50,160 --> 01:23:55,240
Speaker 3: reinforcing his dehumanization of victims, and it ended with more

1455
01:23:55,520 --> 01:23:59,280
Speaker 3: taunts and threats. He being himself planted in the headlines

1456
01:23:59,360 --> 01:24:03,120
Speaker 3: even when he wasn't actively killing, because they're publishing this

1457
01:24:03,160 --> 01:24:05,600
Speaker 3: in the newspaper and the public was like, going, what

1458
01:24:05,800 --> 01:24:08,840
Speaker 3: is going on? And that kept him in the headlines.

1459
01:24:09,840 --> 01:24:12,120
Speaker 3: It was called the Dripping Pen letter because he wrote

1460
01:24:12,840 --> 01:24:16,920
Speaker 3: the pen is mightier than the sword, and sarcastically added

1461
01:24:17,080 --> 01:24:20,800
Speaker 3: that his pen was dripping with blood and the imagery

1462
01:24:21,080 --> 01:24:24,240
Speaker 3: was deliberate, right. He was bragging that his words and

1463
01:24:24,360 --> 01:24:28,240
Speaker 3: letters were causing as much panic as the actual killings.

1464
01:24:28,240 --> 01:24:29,760
Speaker 3: And they were people.

1465
01:24:29,439 --> 01:24:35,360
Speaker 2: Were God, he was imagine just the entire nation captivated.

1466
01:24:35,960 --> 01:24:39,160
Speaker 2: And by the way, you had mentioned that a lot

1467
01:24:39,200 --> 01:24:43,160
Speaker 2: of people ripped quote ripped off the Zodiac Killer, like

1468
01:24:44,080 --> 01:24:48,880
Speaker 2: BTK and some Sam. But Jack the Ripper fun fact,

1469
01:24:49,040 --> 01:24:50,720
Speaker 2: that's right, Jack the Ripper he did too.

1470
01:24:51,400 --> 01:24:51,679
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1471
01:24:51,720 --> 01:24:56,120
Speaker 2: So he also sent postcards to the media.

1472
01:24:55,920 --> 01:25:01,519
Speaker 3: Yea, this one is interesting. This this one happened about

1473
01:25:01,520 --> 01:25:04,519
Speaker 3: about about two months later in October, and it was

1474
01:25:04,560 --> 01:25:07,080
Speaker 3: sent to the Chronicle again. And it was two days

1475
01:25:07,200 --> 01:25:09,920
Speaker 3: after the murder of Paul Steine. Remember I told you

1476
01:25:10,240 --> 01:25:12,800
Speaker 3: he cut their shirt in the previous segment. He cut

1477
01:25:12,800 --> 01:25:16,040
Speaker 3: Paul's shirt. Yes, and he sent a piece of that

1478
01:25:16,080 --> 01:25:18,920
Speaker 3: shirt to the paper to prove it with him and

1479
01:25:18,960 --> 01:25:23,080
Speaker 3: to prove he did the killing. Yeah, he closed a

1480
01:25:23,160 --> 01:25:28,040
Speaker 3: bloodstained piece of his shirt as undeniable proof that he was.

1481
01:25:28,080 --> 01:25:31,959
Speaker 3: Like he continued to mock the police, bragging that officers

1482
01:25:31,960 --> 01:25:33,880
Speaker 3: had spoken to him near the crime scene and let

1483
01:25:34,000 --> 01:25:37,000
Speaker 3: him go because they were looking for a black suspect

1484
01:25:37,080 --> 01:25:40,679
Speaker 3: instead of a white man. Remember the initial police radio

1485
01:25:40,720 --> 01:25:44,479
Speaker 3: broadcast mistakenly described the suspect as a black man. And

1486
01:25:44,479 --> 01:25:46,760
Speaker 3: that came from dispatch, not from eyewitnesses.

1487
01:25:47,280 --> 01:25:52,240
Speaker 2: Oh, oh my goodness, so terrible, that small little you know,

1488
01:25:52,479 --> 01:25:55,439
Speaker 2: pure accidents can potentially affect history.

1489
01:25:55,760 --> 01:25:59,280
Speaker 3: So about a month later, again he's very active. He

1490
01:25:59,720 --> 01:26:03,679
Speaker 3: sent Z three forty letter okay, and this was sent

1491
01:26:03,680 --> 01:26:06,600
Speaker 3: to the chronicle, San Francisco Chronicle. It included the Z

1492
01:26:06,960 --> 01:26:09,880
Speaker 3: three forty, which was three hundred and forty characters. And

1493
01:26:09,920 --> 01:26:15,320
Speaker 3: guess this one remained unbroken for fifty years, you guys. Wow,

1494
01:26:15,360 --> 01:26:17,439
Speaker 3: it was just cracked in twenty twenty.

1495
01:26:17,600 --> 01:26:18,240
Speaker 4: Oh my god.

1496
01:26:18,520 --> 01:26:22,280
Speaker 3: Recent. Yeah, it was very recent. He mailed this letter

1497
01:26:22,560 --> 01:26:25,920
Speaker 3: to the San Franisco Chronicle. It contained a cipher, and

1498
01:26:25,920 --> 01:26:29,120
Speaker 3: again this cipher was far more complex in its earlier code.

1499
01:26:29,200 --> 01:26:31,920
Speaker 3: Unlike the first cipher, this one resisted all attempts to

1500
01:26:32,000 --> 01:26:34,360
Speaker 3: solve it. It was solved in twenty twenty by an

1501
01:26:34,400 --> 01:26:38,439
Speaker 3: international team of civilian code breakers David or Chunk and

1502
01:26:38,680 --> 01:26:44,400
Speaker 3: Samplaite and Jarl van Eck. The solution contained taunts and

1503
01:26:44,760 --> 01:26:48,200
Speaker 3: more rambling, but no name okay, and some of the

1504
01:26:48,200 --> 01:26:50,040
Speaker 3: things that were in there were I hope you're having

1505
01:26:50,080 --> 01:26:52,880
Speaker 3: a lot of fun trying to catch me. I'm not

1506
01:26:52,960 --> 01:26:55,200
Speaker 3: afraid of the gas chamber because it will send me

1507
01:26:55,280 --> 01:26:58,880
Speaker 3: to paradise. He's he's spelt paradise wrong, and the sooner

1508
01:26:59,240 --> 01:27:01,920
Speaker 3: all the sooner because now I have enough slaves to

1509
01:27:01,960 --> 01:27:04,639
Speaker 3: work for me, which let a lot of people think

1510
01:27:04,680 --> 01:27:07,000
Speaker 3: that the people that he was killing he considered, like,

1511
01:27:07,120 --> 01:27:09,360
Speaker 3: you know, beholden to him in some way in the afterlife,

1512
01:27:10,000 --> 01:27:12,559
Speaker 3: so that kind of gave maybe some insight into like

1513
01:27:12,640 --> 01:27:15,599
Speaker 3: his mental state, but you know, not a whole lot

1514
01:27:15,720 --> 01:27:18,880
Speaker 3: enough to catch him. This one was interesting. He sent

1515
01:27:18,920 --> 01:27:21,840
Speaker 3: a letter in December. About a month later, he sent

1516
01:27:21,960 --> 01:27:26,040
Speaker 3: a letter to an attorney named Melvin Belly, and it

1517
01:27:26,120 --> 01:27:29,520
Speaker 3: was one of the most strangest and most psychologically manipulative

1518
01:27:29,520 --> 01:27:32,519
Speaker 3: messages to Zodiac ever sent. He wrote directly to the

1519
01:27:32,560 --> 01:27:35,400
Speaker 3: attorney he was a really famous defense attorney, claiming he

1520
01:27:35,479 --> 01:27:38,320
Speaker 3: was losing control and asking for help because he feared

1521
01:27:38,360 --> 01:27:41,000
Speaker 3: he would kill again. He complained of headaches and said

1522
01:27:41,040 --> 01:27:43,960
Speaker 3: he needed someone to stop him, presenting himself as like

1523
01:27:44,000 --> 01:27:49,479
Speaker 3: this good and bad, you know, distressed rather than triumphantness killings,

1524
01:27:49,920 --> 01:27:52,439
Speaker 3: and to prove the letter was real, he enclosed another

1525
01:27:52,640 --> 01:27:59,800
Speaker 3: piece of Paul Stein's bloodstained shirt, confirming hold on it.

1526
01:28:01,760 --> 01:28:04,919
Speaker 3: Many many investigators believe at the time that the distress

1527
01:28:05,040 --> 01:28:08,839
Speaker 3: was very performative, not genuine. In another attempt to manipulate

1528
01:28:08,880 --> 01:28:13,040
Speaker 3: the media, insert himself into public conversation and test whether

1529
01:28:13,120 --> 01:28:18,599
Speaker 3: he could control even powerful legal figures. Right showed Zodiac

1530
01:28:18,600 --> 01:28:22,519
Speaker 3: could switch personas at will, using fear one moment and

1531
01:28:22,680 --> 01:28:25,200
Speaker 3: pity the next to stay relevant because he's not, you know,

1532
01:28:25,240 --> 01:28:27,160
Speaker 3: he's not being talked about. So he waits a month,

1533
01:28:27,360 --> 01:28:30,920
Speaker 3: sends a letter, now the Z thirteen cipher that happened

1534
01:28:30,960 --> 01:28:35,360
Speaker 3: in April of nineteen seventy, so this was four months later, okay,

1535
01:28:35,479 --> 01:28:37,320
Speaker 3: And he sent us to the Chronicle again and it

1536
01:28:37,360 --> 01:28:41,519
Speaker 3: included the Z thirteen cipher, which so in this letter

1537
01:28:41,520 --> 01:28:43,519
Speaker 3: he said my name is and then he wrote like

1538
01:28:43,560 --> 01:28:47,120
Speaker 3: a line blank right, and then right below that line

1539
01:28:47,320 --> 01:28:50,400
Speaker 3: was these thirteen symbols. I'm going to call him symbols.

1540
01:28:50,640 --> 01:28:55,360
Speaker 3: They were symbols, So it eludes that this thirteen symbols

1541
01:28:55,520 --> 01:28:59,519
Speaker 3: is his name. Okay, and you know it's been too

1542
01:28:59,560 --> 01:29:02,920
Speaker 3: short to decode, making it one of the most frustrating

1543
01:29:02,920 --> 01:29:05,679
Speaker 3: pieces of this case. Now, that guy that I talked

1544
01:29:05,720 --> 01:29:08,759
Speaker 3: about in the previous segment claims that he cracked that code,

1545
01:29:08,800 --> 01:29:12,439
Speaker 3: that cipher, but again it's being disputed, but again other

1546
01:29:12,479 --> 01:29:16,840
Speaker 3: people say it's valid. So so in this letter, besides

1547
01:29:16,960 --> 01:29:20,280
Speaker 3: you know, the cipher, he taunted police again and he

1548
01:29:20,439 --> 01:29:23,200
Speaker 3: thought you know that people thought he was a hoax,

1549
01:29:23,280 --> 01:29:26,080
Speaker 3: and he was mocking law enforcement for failing to catch him.

1550
01:29:26,680 --> 01:29:30,799
Speaker 3: He didn't provide a key or any context to this cipher,

1551
01:29:30,840 --> 01:29:34,320
Speaker 3: which made it incredibly difficult. And then this one's interesting.

1552
01:29:34,320 --> 01:29:37,920
Speaker 3: Two months later, the button letter, the Button letter was

1553
01:29:38,000 --> 01:29:41,760
Speaker 3: the Z thirty two cipher. So the Button letter he

1554
01:29:41,840 --> 01:29:45,800
Speaker 3: wrote in June, two months after my Name is letter,

1555
01:29:46,280 --> 01:29:49,439
Speaker 3: And in this one he threatened to blow up children's

1556
01:29:49,439 --> 01:29:53,080
Speaker 3: school botch of this if people didn't wear Zodiac buttons.

1557
01:29:53,479 --> 01:29:56,160
Speaker 3: Oh my god, yeah, are you kidding?

1558
01:29:56,360 --> 01:29:56,639
Speaker 4: Wow?

1559
01:29:57,439 --> 01:30:01,799
Speaker 3: And he said that the cipher, the thirty two character cipher,

1560
01:30:01,920 --> 01:30:06,360
Speaker 3: was a map to a bomb and that if they

1561
01:30:06,360 --> 01:30:08,240
Speaker 3: found it, they could dig it up and decode, like

1562
01:30:08,560 --> 01:30:11,960
Speaker 3: you know, get rid of it. But this one remains

1563
01:30:12,040 --> 01:30:17,280
Speaker 3: unsolved as well. So he really was just fear mongering.

1564
01:30:17,479 --> 01:30:21,960
Speaker 2: And I can't imagine how much both time was spent

1565
01:30:22,400 --> 01:30:28,000
Speaker 2: doing these unbelievably complicated letters, such fifty years one of them.

1566
01:30:29,439 --> 01:30:33,680
Speaker 3: But right, and he went on to mock police and

1567
01:30:33,920 --> 01:30:36,840
Speaker 3: you know, being up. He was rather unhappy that they

1568
01:30:36,840 --> 01:30:40,479
Speaker 3: weren't wearing these buttons, of these zodiac buttons, and he claimed,

1569
01:30:40,960 --> 01:30:43,599
Speaker 3: I'm going to punish them in another way. I shot

1570
01:30:43,640 --> 01:30:46,120
Speaker 3: a man parked in a car with a thirty eight

1571
01:30:46,640 --> 01:30:50,840
Speaker 3: who who And they believe he's referencing the murder of

1572
01:30:50,960 --> 01:30:55,960
Speaker 3: San Francisco Police Department Sergeant Richard Redditek, which has never

1573
01:30:56,040 --> 01:30:59,160
Speaker 3: been a you know, a you know, he it's never

1574
01:30:59,200 --> 01:31:01,680
Speaker 3: been proven that it was him, but it's never been

1575
01:31:01,720 --> 01:31:05,000
Speaker 3: disproven either. But it's not on the official list of

1576
01:31:05,080 --> 01:31:07,040
Speaker 3: victims because they haven't proven it was in But that

1577
01:31:07,080 --> 01:31:08,120
Speaker 3: case does remain open.

1578
01:31:08,479 --> 01:31:10,920
Speaker 4: Oh it's still yeah, Okay.

1579
01:31:10,680 --> 01:31:13,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, it doesn't remain open. And there's several other you

1580
01:31:13,680 --> 01:31:16,320
Speaker 3: know letters, but they're not as important. He goes on

1581
01:31:16,360 --> 01:31:20,080
Speaker 3: to make fun of the Exorcist. He sends the San

1582
01:31:20,120 --> 01:31:24,120
Speaker 3: Francisco Chronicle a Halloween card that's very menacing that says,

1583
01:31:24,120 --> 01:31:27,200
Speaker 3: peek a boo, you are doomed. He's taunting the media too,

1584
01:31:27,720 --> 01:31:31,240
Speaker 3: you know, he's kind of threatening them. But you know again,

1585
01:31:31,720 --> 01:31:35,479
Speaker 3: uh what this is what remains unsolved, Zodiac's true identity,

1586
01:31:36,040 --> 01:31:39,519
Speaker 3: the Z thirteen name cipher, the Z thirty two bomb cipher,

1587
01:31:40,160 --> 01:31:43,160
Speaker 3: and whether or not all the letters are actually attributed

1588
01:31:43,160 --> 01:31:47,920
Speaker 3: to Zodiac. We're gonna have to stay tuned for that. Yeah.

1589
01:31:48,000 --> 01:31:48,719
Speaker 3: So that's Zodiac.

1590
01:31:49,520 --> 01:31:53,000
Speaker 4: Wow, that is I mean, there's.

1591
01:31:52,800 --> 01:31:55,599
Speaker 3: So much to this case, you guys that I would

1592
01:31:55,640 --> 01:31:58,640
Speaker 3: literally need the whole show to go into everything that

1593
01:31:58,760 --> 01:32:02,519
Speaker 3: Zodiac did. But he really became the blueprint for modern

1594
01:32:02,560 --> 01:32:07,560
Speaker 3: media driven serial killers. He he, he is the blueprint

1595
01:32:07,760 --> 01:32:11,280
Speaker 3: for in my opinion, he used the media, he was

1596
01:32:11,439 --> 01:32:16,200
Speaker 3: very knowledgeable in public relations, and he did a great

1597
01:32:16,280 --> 01:32:16,760
Speaker 3: job at that.

1598
01:32:17,280 --> 01:32:22,120
Speaker 4: Is there a movie? Yeah, I agreed. I was just

1599
01:32:22,160 --> 01:32:24,000
Speaker 4: going to ask, is there a movie version of this?

1600
01:32:25,160 --> 01:32:29,840
Speaker 3: Zodiac and Jake Gillenthal's in it. It's pretty good. Take

1601
01:32:29,920 --> 01:32:33,000
Speaker 3: some license, but it's it's pretty good. I mean it's

1602
01:32:33,120 --> 01:32:33,920
Speaker 3: very good.

1603
01:32:33,840 --> 01:32:37,519
Speaker 4: Because I like, that's something I might watch now after

1604
01:32:38,000 --> 01:32:38,639
Speaker 4: It's good.

1605
01:32:39,800 --> 01:32:41,439
Speaker 3: I love the Chronicle.

1606
01:32:42,160 --> 01:32:47,439
Speaker 4: Oh okay, I recommend it.

1607
01:32:48,479 --> 01:32:52,479
Speaker 2: I'm falling asleep with Jake Jillenhall as the Zodiac Killer tonight,

1608
01:32:52,600 --> 01:32:53,400
Speaker 2: I think.

1609
01:32:54,640 --> 01:32:57,800
Speaker 3: Well, Boddy, thank you so much for walking us through that.

1610
01:32:57,920 --> 01:32:58,599
Speaker 3: I really have.

1611
01:33:00,320 --> 01:33:02,960
Speaker 2: So many of those details. So thank you so much,

1612
01:33:03,560 --> 01:33:07,160
Speaker 2: and listen, thank you for joining us. Tomorrow, we're going

1613
01:33:07,200 --> 01:33:09,960
Speaker 2: to have the latest in the Alexander Brothers case. We'll

1614
01:33:10,000 --> 01:33:14,600
Speaker 2: be following that trial, and we are also going to

1615
01:33:14,640 --> 01:33:17,240
Speaker 2: be talking about a missing boy who traveled to New

1616
01:33:17,360 --> 01:33:22,880
Speaker 2: York after meeting someone on roadblocks. Listen, have a great

1617
01:33:22,920 --> 01:33:26,560
Speaker 2: rest of your night, and see you tomorrow.

1618
01:33:27,640 --> 01:33:28,439
Speaker 3: Ye Jad