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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff, give you, guys, the best independent.

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Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible.

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Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means

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Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support.

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Speaker 3: But enough with that, let's get to the show.

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Speaker 4: It seems to me unfair at the political parties, who

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Speaker 4: you would think should be the most important voice in

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Speaker 4: campaigns are the ones that face most onerous rules and

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Speaker 4: regulations on their campaign donation, and the billionaires have no regulations.

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Speaker 3: Let's just have a fair fight. It's the First Amendment.

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Speaker 5: And I'm proud to represent my clients and tell staff

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Speaker 5: or the members themselves why we think they got it wrong.

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Speaker 3: All right, welcome to Counterpoints Today.

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Speaker 6: We're going to be talking about the corporate takeover of Washington.

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Speaker 6: We've got an author over here, Brodie Mullins, who wrote

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Speaker 6: with Luke Mullens the new book which is destroyed. That's right,

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Speaker 6: put his put the actual copy up on the screen here,

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Speaker 6: called The Wolves of k Street. The Secret History of

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Speaker 6: How Big Money took Over Big Government were also joined

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Speaker 6: by Sam Godaldig, who represents that big money taking over

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Speaker 6: big government. Sam is a lobbyist here in Washington. Do

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Speaker 6: you go by super lobbyists or you just go by lobbybbyist?

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Speaker 3: Just we'll go by Wolf. Now, Yes, he's a He

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Speaker 3: is a Wolf of K Street.

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Speaker 6: And so we hope that people at the end of

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Speaker 6: this program will have a full and rich understanding of

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Speaker 6: how lobbying works and how legislating works in Washington based

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Speaker 6: on this kind of investigation into the into the history

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Speaker 6: of it.

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Speaker 3: Sam quickly start with you.

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Speaker 6: You actually read the book, which is unusual for you.

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Speaker 3: Tell us what you thought of it. I loved it.

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Speaker 3: Brody did an incredible job.

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Speaker 5: He outlined the careers of three, you know, mega lobbyist

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Speaker 5: people that change the field. I was a staffer on

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Speaker 5: Capitol Hill when most of these lobbyists were kind of

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Speaker 5: in their prime, so I didn't know them very well personally,

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Speaker 5: but I definitely knew of them. They all had enormous

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Speaker 5: shops and big influence, and they were cutting edge. And

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Speaker 5: Brody writes about that and kind of writes about how

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Speaker 5: things got off the rails for him too, So I

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Speaker 5: found it really interesting.

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Speaker 6: It is interesting how terribly things actually turned out in

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Speaker 6: the end for almost all of the characters in this book,

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Speaker 6: and also terribly for us as a country. Like nobody

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Speaker 6: won here, even the winners lost. But Brody want to

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Speaker 6: start with you and ask you. Let's say you've got

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Speaker 6: Ukrainian oligarch or an Israeli oligarch or Russian oligarch.

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Speaker 3: Although sanctions come into well.

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Speaker 6: Let's go with the second. Sanctions are a problem too,

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Speaker 6: that's a political problem. An oligarch is decides that he

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Speaker 6: has a problem in Washington. It's always a heat and

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Speaker 6: he needs this problem solved. So, knowing everything that you've

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Speaker 6: learned in your couple of decades of covering Washington, influence

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Speaker 6: if what would the influence pedlars in Washington tell an

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Speaker 6: oligarch For an oligarch who's coming into town, here are

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Speaker 6: the steps that you need to take if you want

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Speaker 6: to move your position from where it is now to

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Speaker 6: something more sympathetic. You get your yacht out of hawk

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Speaker 6: or whatever it is that they feel like they need.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'll give you two different answers.

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Speaker 4: In a normal world, the oligarch would hire lobbyists Republicans

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Speaker 4: and Democrats, and lobbies are really translators. I mean oligarchs

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Speaker 4: or US corporation executives are running their businesses, or running

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Speaker 4: their countries or running you know, how are they they

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Speaker 4: make their money. They're not folcus on Washington. Policy and

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Speaker 4: the policy making process here is incredibly confusing and complex.

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Speaker 4: So lobbies in general are translaers. They tell people, here

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Speaker 4: are the people you need to talk to, here's the

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Speaker 4: story you need to tell. Here's how a bill becomes

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Speaker 4: a law, or how a resolution will get passed. And

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Speaker 4: it's really about educating as many of the correct people

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Speaker 4: as possible to get your message out on Capitol Hill.

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Speaker 4: The second answer, though, is if Donald Trump wins, the

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Speaker 4: answer is that you hire Paul Manaford. Paul Mannifort would

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Speaker 4: probably be the most powerful unelected person in Washington. If

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Speaker 4: Donald Trump wins, major character in your book, major character

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Speaker 4: in our book, and the way he's survived through so

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Speaker 4: many years is making contacts with the most important people

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Speaker 4: in Washington, working for President Reagan, working for President Bush.

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Speaker 4: After that, and if Trump is elected, there's one person

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Speaker 4: in the world on the planet who is gone to

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Speaker 4: jail for Donald Trump and proven his loyalty, and that

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Speaker 4: is Paul Manaford. And if Trump wins, Manaford is going

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Speaker 4: to be the guy to call well Manaphord.

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Speaker 7: It's a good place actually to start going back in time. Sam,

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Speaker 7: I'm really curious to ask you this question, given what

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Speaker 7: you just said about watching people when you were younger

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Speaker 7: and you were a staffer from that generation. But I'll

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Speaker 7: start here because you document in the book the fascinating

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Speaker 7: story of how Manifort, Black and Stone, names that are

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Speaker 7: familiar to a lot of people. Roger Stone, of course

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Speaker 7: alluding to changed the game, and lobbying itself has phases,

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Speaker 7: has had sort of phases throughout the last fifty years

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Speaker 7: plus of American history. What changed fundamentally about lobbying, as

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Speaker 7: he documented in The Wolves of Case Street.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there's one fundamental change in the last fifty years,

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Speaker 4: and that is that most people think of lobbying today

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Speaker 4: as based on cozy relationships between lobbyists and lawmakers and

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Speaker 4: campaign donations and state dinners and golf outings. And that's

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Speaker 4: just not how lobbying works these days. Lobby is much

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Speaker 4: more about mobilizing constituents, getting business groups, getting like minded

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Speaker 4: allies out in the States to pressure members of Congress

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Speaker 4: to vote one way or another. Paul Manniford and Roger

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Speaker 4: Stones started to change things that way. They were campaign

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Speaker 4: guys in the late nineteen seventies. They were working for

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Speaker 4: Ronald Reagan. Interesting story and Ronald Reagan back then it

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Speaker 4: was almost was very similar to Donald Trump.

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Speaker 3: He's an outsider.

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Speaker 4: Yes, people think of him as the established of Republican,

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Speaker 4: which he is now, but back then he was unning

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Speaker 4: against George Bush.

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Speaker 3: George Bush was the Eastern Conservative.

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Speaker 4: Establishment back when there were Eastern Conservatives around. He went

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Speaker 4: to Yale, he had the right pedigree. He worked at

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Speaker 4: the RNC, and he was supposed to win the nineteen

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Speaker 4: eighty election, or at least be the Republican nominee. Reagan

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Speaker 4: beat him. Then Reagan beats Carter. Reagan comes to office

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Speaker 4: and there's no Republicans in town. There were no Republican

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Speaker 4: lobbyists because one Democrats to control Congress for fifty years

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Speaker 4: two the last set of Republican establishing figures were with

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Speaker 4: the Knicks the administration, so they were out with Watergate.

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Speaker 4: Paul Maniford and Roger Stone had worked for the Reagan

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Speaker 4: campaign companies started saying, Hey, who can we hire the

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Speaker 4: lobbyist who has access, who knows Reagan and Stone and

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Speaker 4: Maniford are literally thirty and thirty one years old, basically

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Speaker 4: said like, we can do this. So they started getting

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Speaker 4: tons of corporate clients. And what they realized was that

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Speaker 4: running a lobbying campaign is very similar running a political campaign.

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Speaker 4: You're just trying to get fifty one percent of your

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Speaker 4: constituents in this case Congress, to vote for what you want.

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Speaker 4: And so they started running basically political campaign for big corporations.

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Speaker 6: And so you also write about the Wolves of k

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Speaker 6: Street element of it, like it feels like something out

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Speaker 6: of a movie in the eighties, like just absolute debauchery.

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Speaker 6: You go through a bunch of lawsuits that women, particularly

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Speaker 6: in the office, filed against these different partners. Sounded it

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Speaker 6: sounded crazy like and some of these guys just sounded

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Speaker 6: like a complete cliche.

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Speaker 3: I think it was was it Boggs.

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Speaker 6: Who would ride in his in his top down Lamborghini

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Speaker 6: or Porsche on his like you know, like rick phone,

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Speaker 6: car phone.

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Speaker 3: Smoking five cigars a day?

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Speaker 6: Hell yeah, how did how has that changed or has

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Speaker 6: it not changed? I mean, obviously it's not exactly the same,

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Speaker 6: but the culture still feels.

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Speaker 3: I feel like the culture has changed in Washington.

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Speaker 4: That was very you know, mad men nineteen fifties mentality

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Speaker 4: that we had in Washington through the nineteen eighties.

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Speaker 3: I think there's that a lot of that has cleaned up.

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Speaker 3: But you know, is that right when did you see?

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Speaker 3: Did you see it clean up? In your arc?

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Speaker 5: It had been cleaned up by the time I was

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Speaker 5: on Capitol Hill as a staffer. I think, you know,

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Speaker 5: the campaign finance law and the lobbying reforms after the

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Speaker 5: abram Off scandal really tightened things up.

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Speaker 8: It's like twenty twelve.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that sounds right. Brody Brody broke that story too.

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Speaker 4: Two thousand and seven was he logo, which is the

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Speaker 4: Honest Leadership and Government Reform Act or something like that,

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Speaker 4: And basically what it said was lobbyists like Sam cannot

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Speaker 4: buy anything of value for a staff or a member

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Speaker 4: of Congress. And the idea was, let's separate the ties

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Speaker 4: the coat, Let's bring these cozy relations between lawmakers and

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Speaker 4: staffers right, so that lobbyists can't registered lobbyists can't bring

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Speaker 4: a staffer to play golf, or can't buy dinner or

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Speaker 4: go to Nationals game to sort of separate those ties.

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Speaker 4: One of the results of that, unfortunately the unintended consequence

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Speaker 4: with a lot of lobbyist said, well, I'm just not

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Speaker 4: going to register. The rule applied to registered lobbyists. Registered

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Speaker 4: lobbyist for people who spend twenty percent or more of

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Speaker 4: their time actively talking to members of Congress or policymakers

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Speaker 4: about legislation. And I imagine you don't spend twenty percent

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Speaker 4: of your time.

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Speaker 3: I don't write.

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Speaker 4: So it's very easy to get around that rule by

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Speaker 4: saying I don't spend twenty twenty percent of my time

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Speaker 4: doing that. So lots of lobbyists just deregistered and therefore

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Speaker 4: the rules potentially didn't apply to them.

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Speaker 7: So Sam, then tell us what the life you know,

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Speaker 7: people at home, Ryan and I've both been in Washington

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Speaker 7: and around this, but for people at home, tell us

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Speaker 7: what the daily life. In the daily routine in the

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Speaker 7: life of a lobbyist looks like.

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Speaker 5: It's not super sexy. You know, it's meeting with a

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Speaker 5: lot of young staff. You know, I'm fifty one now,

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Speaker 5: but you know, it's meeting with the staff to members

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Speaker 5: of Congress and senators, talking to a lot of journalists,

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Speaker 5: sitting in meetings with clients, their PR firms, their lawyers.

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Speaker 5: You know, we've talked about like the political and industrial complex.

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Speaker 3: I consider all four of us solidly in it.

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Speaker 5: In a source to you guys, in a source to Brody,

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Speaker 5: trying to you know, shift the debate in positive ways

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Speaker 5: for clients and trying to kill things on Capitol Hill

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Speaker 5: that our clients don't like the book, I agree with Brody.

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Speaker 5: It does feel like an era that's long gone. The

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Speaker 5: book makes it sound like it was all mad men,

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Speaker 5: and you know, these these happy hours that were insane,

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Speaker 5: and the misogyny, and it's I haven't seen any of that.

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Speaker 3: I think it's an interesting way to make a living.

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Speaker 5: You know, we get to talk to a lot of people,

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Speaker 5: come up with strategies to make you know, certain policies

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Speaker 5: palatable or not palatable for the members that are going to.

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Speaker 3: Vote on those policies.

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Speaker 5: We focus on a lot of Fortune five hundred work

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Speaker 5: at my firm. We don't do FARA work, so that

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Speaker 5: kind of eliminates the Ukrainian you know, oligarchs.

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Speaker 8: How do you design who to represent them.

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Speaker 5: I'm at an all republic firms, so for us, it's

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Speaker 5: very simple. We try to take clients that we think

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Speaker 5: Republicans will be aligned to want to help.

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Speaker 3: What about you worse issues me personally?

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Speaker 7: Like you know, when you're thinking of I'm sure you've

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Speaker 7: had less than savory characters approach you in the past.

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Speaker 8: I'm sure you've turned people away. What's that like for you?

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Speaker 3: Less than savory characters.

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Speaker 5: You kind of get a vibe pretty quick if they're trying,

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Speaker 5: you know, throwing around more money than maybe you know

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Speaker 5: you would normally charge. You know, sets off like a

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Speaker 5: little internal red flag. People assuming that you can do

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Speaker 5: things that you can't. You know, like one conversation is

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Speaker 5: going to change everything. So you know, I try to

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Speaker 5: stay away from that personally. You know, it's a big industry.

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Speaker 5: There's a lot of obvious in town, and there's even

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Speaker 5: more lawyers and more PR firms. So you know, Brody

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Speaker 5: wrote about three kind of really interesting slash ethically maybe

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Speaker 5: challenged you know, human beings.

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Speaker 3: I don't see that every day.

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Speaker 5: You know, there's been people that have been wildly successful,

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Speaker 5: and you know, every election turns turns kind of the

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Speaker 5: tide on which firms may or may not get hired

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Speaker 5: by certain clients.

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Speaker 3: But it's it's a lot of blocking and tackling.

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Speaker 5: It's a lot of meetings, it's a lot of trying

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Speaker 5: to figure out messages that will move you know, electorates

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Speaker 5: in certain congressional districts or states to a place where

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Speaker 5: the Senator, the member feels comfortable voting yes or no.

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Speaker 4: One thing to add I think, you know, like I

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Speaker 4: said before, a lot of people think that lobbying is

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Speaker 4: not what.

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Speaker 3: It is the way it exists today.

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Speaker 4: You know, back in the day when you work for

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Speaker 4: John Byner, I think people think that you could go

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Speaker 4: into John Baynor and give a campaign checking He's going to,

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Speaker 4: you know, put some provision into the law for you.

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Speaker 3: And that just doesn't happen anymore.

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Speaker 4: And it did happen, It absolutely did twenty thirty forty

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Speaker 4: years ago, especially when we had earmarks. But it doesn't

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Speaker 4: happen now. And part of it is because it's scrutiny

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Speaker 4: of the media and the member of Congress exists. I mean,

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Speaker 4: in my entire time of being a reporter, Like the

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Speaker 4: one thing you know for sure is a member of

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Speaker 4: Congress will do anything it takes to get reelected. And

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Speaker 4: if they're gonna do some sweetheart deal for a lobbyist

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Speaker 4: buddy and get caught.

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Speaker 3: You know, they could lose their seats, so they're not

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Speaker 3: going to do that. I would add the media landscape.

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Speaker 5: You know, back when Bogs and Podesta and Matt of

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Speaker 5: Fort were doing, what they were doing was so tight.

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Speaker 5: You know, you had three major newspapers, maybe four, couple

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Speaker 5: of network news shows that only ran a half hour

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Speaker 5: every night. You know, now with cell phones and the

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Speaker 5: Internet and all the media kind of outlets that have

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Speaker 5: popped up across across DC, it's really hard to have

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Speaker 5: a quiet conversation in a smoke filled back room, Like

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Speaker 5: there's no secrets anymore.

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Speaker 8: Nobody even smokes.

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Speaker 3: That's true.

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Speaker 7: You I won't reveal what you put in, you know,

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Speaker 7: to get your nicotine.

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Speaker 8: Fixed before we started here.

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Speaker 6: But it seems like it was in and it feels

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Speaker 6: like I'm curious if Washington has sort of adapted to

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Speaker 6: this by concentrating power in you know, the leadership positions,

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Speaker 6: Like it's so like a parasite host relationship in the

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Speaker 6: in the way that, like the Congress, the administrative apparatus

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Speaker 6: kind of shapes itself sometimes to the right the lobbyists,

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Speaker 6: like for instance, like Brody, You've covered this. The House

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Speaker 6: Financial Services Committee and the Senate Banking Committee, those would

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Speaker 6: be the places that would regulate, you know, the people

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Speaker 6: with lots of money. And so what ended up happening

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Speaker 6: is that and this is a parasite host relationship. The

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Speaker 6: members of Congress who wanted to raise money from Wall Street,

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Speaker 6: you know, would go serve on these committees so that

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Speaker 6: it would sort of then be subsumed into that. Like

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Speaker 6: that's how the takeover ends up happening. But today, because

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Speaker 6: there's so much there's so much anger at Wall Street,

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Speaker 6: and there's also, like you said, there's more attention on

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Speaker 6: everything right now, a lot of people are like, actually,

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Speaker 6: I don't want to be on the House Financial Services

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Speaker 6: Committee because it's just going to get me in trouble.

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Speaker 6: It's gonna I'm going to take it's going to show

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Speaker 6: that I took a million dollars from banks. Then it'll

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Speaker 6: I'll take some vote, some bank will blow up, then

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Speaker 6: I'm going to lose my seat. So how are people

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Speaker 6: that's more on the Democratic side, it's harder, I think,

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Speaker 6: to get called effort. What so what is the current

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Speaker 6: state of like fear of getting called a tody to

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Speaker 6: corporate America.

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Speaker 5: There is an incredible amount of populism and parties right now,

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Speaker 5: and there there is kind of a notion that you know,

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Speaker 5: these these PAC checks that you know ran kind of

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Speaker 5: politics in the nineties are a double edged sword. You know,

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Speaker 5: you can get a five thousand dollars pack check and

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Speaker 5: it can be turned around and used against you in

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Speaker 5: a thirty second ad by your opponent or a primary opponent,

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Speaker 5: you know, which you know, these are all things it

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Speaker 5: didn't used to happen in the nineties. Primary opponents, you know,

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Speaker 5: kind of you know, the negative ads have gotten more

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Speaker 5: kind of intense.

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Speaker 8: Parties had more control.

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Speaker 3: Maybe, and outside groups do too.

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Speaker 5: You know, you've got all these you know, these these

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Speaker 5: I guess super packs that are funded by you know,

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Speaker 5: maybe one or two donors that are willing to do

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Speaker 5: things that maybe the party apparatus in the nineties would

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Speaker 5: have never done, which is challenged a sitting member of Congress.

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Speaker 5: So you know, you take a check, a PAC check,

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Speaker 5: which sounds kind of benign. All it is is a

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Speaker 5: corporations employees contributing to a fund to give to politicians

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Speaker 5: that agree with positions the company agrees with or disagrees

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Speaker 5: with and it turns that contribution into maybe a thirty

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Speaker 5: second hit. So you know, you got five thousand dollars,

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Speaker 5: but it did like a million dollars worth of damage

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Speaker 5: to your you know, your your favorable ratings as a

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Speaker 5: member of Congress.

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Speaker 3: Hoping to get real around that now, or to try

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Speaker 3: to duck that liability.

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Speaker 5: I think, you know, hopefully, you know, your clients aren't

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Speaker 5: that hot that you know that would cause a problem.

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Speaker 5: And it's our job, is lobbyist, to make sure that

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Speaker 5: the members that were trusting and they're trusting us to

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Speaker 5: have serious conversations about how to move the ball forward

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Speaker 5: in Washington on any issue, that we're not going to

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Speaker 5: put them in hot water. So you know, if I'm

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Speaker 5: going to sit there and talk to Congressman X and say,

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Speaker 5: you know, here's a bunch of money, don't worry about it,

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Speaker 5: It's all okay, and then he gets a negative ad

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Speaker 5: run against him, you know that Congressman's probably never going

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Speaker 5: to talk to me again.

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Speaker 3: So you can't win too much. We can't do it

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Speaker 3: the way those guys did it. You know, it's interesting.

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Speaker 4: You know I said before that a member of Congress

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Speaker 4: will do whatever it takes to get reelected. Obviously, that

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Speaker 4: means you need fifty one percent of your constituents of overview.

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Speaker 3: But we also need money.

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Speaker 4: After Watergate, Watergate, essentially the Federal Election Commission was created

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Speaker 4: and legalized political actioning committees. Companies started giving tons of

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Speaker 4: money to Republicans and the Democrats and create a sort

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Speaker 4: of pro business center in the US where in Congress

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Speaker 4: where both Republicans and Democrats listened to corporate America and

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Speaker 4: listen to their lobbies and listen to corporations in Parkers

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Speaker 4: are getting this money. We rose to a point where

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Speaker 4: about half members of Congress get about half of their

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Speaker 4: money from corporate packs. And that made members of Congress,

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Speaker 4: Republicans and Democrats more dependent on money from corporate packs.

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Speaker 4: And that meant that the corporations created that allowed corporations

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Speaker 4: to create a pro business working center in this country.

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Speaker 4: That's now fraying because both Democrats are not taking corporate

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Speaker 4: pack money and some Republicans are not taking corporate back

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Speaker 4: money because.

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Speaker 3: Of the issues that Sam mentioned.

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Speaker 4: So now what we have is members of Congress, Republicans

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Speaker 4: and Democrats getting money from small donors. Small donors tend

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Speaker 4: to be more ideological, less concerned about getting things done

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Speaker 4: in Washington, oftentimes trying.

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Speaker 3: To blow up things in Washington.

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Speaker 4: And you have members of Congress on the right and

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Speaker 4: the left who are now instead of appealing to the

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Speaker 4: middle and coming to these companies to get their money

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Speaker 4: and see what they want, or sort of moving to

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Speaker 4: the extremes, which I think has made politics more extreme

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Speaker 4: on both sides.

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Speaker 3: And so the other thing about corporate pack.

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Speaker 4: Dollars is that while there are problems with them, we

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Speaker 4: know where they're coming from, we know how they're raised,

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Speaker 4: they're regulated, they're disclosed, they're capped donations from billionaires and

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Speaker 4: small donors.

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Speaker 3: We don't know who these people are. We don't know

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Speaker 3: what they want.

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Speaker 4: There is very little disclosure, and that's a bigger problem

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Speaker 4: that we have in politics. And the political parties are

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Speaker 4: still capped. So the super packs and billionaires are doing

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Speaker 4: whatever they want with no rules and no limitations, and

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Speaker 4: the political parties, who I think we'd want to be

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Speaker 4: the dominant force in politics are no longer dominant force

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Speaker 4: in politics, and that's a problem.

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Speaker 6: It's interesting that you say that I want to hear

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Speaker 6: your guys take on this, because Yeah, I grew up

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Speaker 6: worrying about corporate power like that in the nineties, like

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Speaker 6: that was the that was the thing the left really

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Speaker 6: cared about. Then the corporate we called it the corporate media.

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Speaker 6: Now it's now it's become the mainstream media.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 6: And you would say, look, big oil is doing this,

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Speaker 6: and it's and so on and so forth, and it

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Speaker 6: corporate power replaced you know, labor power, environmentalists, women's groups,

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Speaker 6: other coalitions that backed the Democrats in the seventies. And

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Speaker 6: so that's why we understood it in that kind of dialectic.

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Speaker 6: But your point is a really fascinating one because just

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Speaker 6: last week and the week before, we were covering this

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Speaker 6: race in Portland, Oregon. I don't know if you guys

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Speaker 6: followed this at all at sam you wouldn't have because

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Speaker 6: it's a Democratic primary.

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Speaker 3: Who cares. I love democratic primaries.

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Speaker 6: It was an organ Oregon's third district, Parmila Giapaul's sister

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Speaker 6: was running and uh in an open, open race or

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Speaker 6: a bluomen Hour retired and Apac decides that it's going

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Speaker 6: to you know, weigh in against Giapaul's sister. But because

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Speaker 6: a pack has a kind of toxic relationship with Portland,

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Speaker 6: they're not going to come in and be like, we

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Speaker 6: think that Israel's war is going great, and we support

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Speaker 6: this liberal democrat, because then everybody would just say, well,

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Speaker 6: we're voting for Giapaul. So they created basically fake super PACs,

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Speaker 6: like they just propped up brand new superpacks and dropped

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Speaker 6: millions of dollars into them at the very end so

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Speaker 6: that they didn't have to disclose until, you know, after

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Speaker 6: the after the election had already had.

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Speaker 7: It's like a domestic version of the European Center for

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Speaker 7: Modern Kah And it's just a shell group that Podesta

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Speaker 7: and Manaport and.

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Speaker 6: So boom, they pick a member of Congress just with this,

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Speaker 6: with this maneuvering.

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Speaker 3: What is that? What does that do to Washington?

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Speaker 8: Like?

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Speaker 6: Or is it in some ways a sideshow that it

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Speaker 6: that it affects American policy towards Israel, But otherwise everything

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Speaker 6: else just kind of goes on as it was, and

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Speaker 6: members just know like, Okay, if I step out a

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Speaker 6: line on Israel, pile sign, I could have some completely

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Speaker 6: random super pack at Nukemi.

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think the same thing happens with corporate America.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I remember stories a decade ago when Harry

440
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 4: Reid was running for reelection, and the pharmaceugal industry would

441
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,159
Speaker 4: come into the lastecond and support Harry Reid, and as

442
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,560
Speaker 4: a result, Harry Reid owed the pharmaceupal companies when he

443
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:20,960
Speaker 4: got back to Congress.

444
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 6: Yeah, that was Obamacare, right, cut a one hundred and fifty

445
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:24,480
Speaker 6: million dollars deal.

446
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:24,880
Speaker 3: Right.

447
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,760
Speaker 4: More recently, I heard a great story that big tech companies,

448
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:30,479
Speaker 4: when these anti tech bills were moving through or there

449
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 4: was a question of whether it be a Senate vote,

450
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 4: big tech industry went out to a couple of key states,

451
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,520
Speaker 4: ran tons of ads and basically sent the message, we

452
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,240
Speaker 4: will destroy you if you vote for this bill. And

453
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:43,480
Speaker 4: there was no vote on that bill.

454
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:47,840
Speaker 6: The bitcoin folks did that in twenty twenty two. If

455
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,960
Speaker 6: you followed, they'd like jumped into a bunch of races.

456
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:51,920
Speaker 3: Sank free.

457
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 4: Actually, yeah, right, you're sending a message that And I

458
00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,280
Speaker 4: think the point here is that you know, the govern

459
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,879
Speaker 4: and the president and Congress are incredibly powerful, but not

460
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,200
Speaker 4: as powerful as big companies. At times, when big companies

461
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 4: they come in and take people out. That means that

462
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 4: these members of Congress, who again exist to get reelected,

463
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:12,960
Speaker 4: are going to be careful and not want to go

464
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:13,919
Speaker 4: against corporate America.

465
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean that's incredibly interesting. One question for Sam

466
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 7: just sort of about the vibes on Case Street right now,

467
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 7: because I don't think mostly when you're talking to lobbyists,

468
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:28,360
Speaker 7: they're like sort of what people would imagine as the elite,

469
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:32,160
Speaker 7: coastal elite, sort of in their bubbles. You those, Sam,

470
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 7: And last time we had you on the show, you

471
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:39,119
Speaker 7: did this fantastic report on what the differences between you know,

472
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,640
Speaker 7: the what is the Problem Solver's Caucus, right, the sort

473
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:46,919
Speaker 7: of elite coastal moderates and Justice Democrats and the Freedom

474
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 7: Caucus who have more populous constituents and constituents and also

475
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:55,080
Speaker 7: actually lower secioeconomic constituents on average. I feel like you

476
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 7: really understand populism in a way that the rest of

477
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,439
Speaker 7: the lobbying industry does not, even though it's in their

478
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:01,440
Speaker 7: interest to understand it.

479
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 8: Right, So what's the vibe? Give us a vibe check? Like,

480
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 8: what are other people missing? If anything?

481
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 5: I think there's some that have their heads kind of

482
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 5: stuck in the sand and think that things just can't

483
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 5: and won't ever change. And the last time we were

484
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,719
Speaker 5: on we talked about, you know, the economic breakdown of

485
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,720
Speaker 5: some of the poorest congressional districts in the country, which

486
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 5: surprises a lot of people. Republicans have a lot more

487
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 5: the richest congressional districts in the country were held by Democrats.

488
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 5: We myself and two business partners created the first minority

489
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 5: owned bipartisan lobbying firm in the history of Washington, DC.

490
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 5: A lot of people snickered, you know, it doesn't do

491
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:47,399
Speaker 5: fabulously well financially. I mean, the partnership's fun and we

492
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 5: have a lot of fun working on the issues we

493
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,679
Speaker 5: work on, and we try to identify regressive issues, you know,

494
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,199
Speaker 5: whether it's you know, higher gas prices or tax on

495
00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 5: tobacco products that just are punitive to poor constituencies. And

496
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 5: after COVID, you know, you can find a million stats

497
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,400
Speaker 5: that show the middle class has been completely wiped out,

498
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 5: the wealthier getting wealthier, the poor getting poor, and there's

499
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 5: there's no more middle class.

500
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 3: Politicians have one job. It's just to get re elected.

501
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 5: It's not to collect campaign checks, it's not to talk

502
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 5: to lobbyists, it's not to do any of the things

503
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 5: that I think a lot of people assume it is.

504
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 5: It's to get re elected, and the best way to

505
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 5: get re elected is take positions your constituents want you

506
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 5: to take. So, you know, with with the elimination of

507
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 5: the middle class and these poor constituencies looking at different

508
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 5: parties in a way that they haven't. You know, recent

509
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 5: polling shows Trump's doing really well with black and Hispanic voters,

510
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,639
Speaker 5: and I think Trump, you know, supercharged a lot of

511
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 5: this populism and a lot of this coalition shifting. When

512
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 5: I was on Capitol Hill, you know, the Republican orthodoxy

513
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:59,119
Speaker 5: was the social issues Second Amendment, abortion, reducing regulations and

514
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 5: corporate taxes and fighting the trial bar with like maybe

515
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 5: a fourth leg of the stool being you know, bash unions. Today,

516
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 5: only one legs stand solidly. It's abortion and gun rights.

517
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 5: And if you think that the reason Republicans are taking

518
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,160
Speaker 5: those positions is for campaign.

519
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 3: Checks, I've got news for you. That's not why they

520
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 3: do it.

521
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 5: Mike Bloomberg spent a gazillion dollars on gun safety bills

522
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:28,160
Speaker 5: and hired lobbyists all over town, and the NRA went bankrupt,

523
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 5: and they're still powerful because they got a lot of

524
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 5: people that live in congressional districts that tell their members

525
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 5: how they want them to vote.

526
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 7: Do you think most lobbyists spend a lot of time

527
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 7: with the type of people who would either vote for

528
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 7: Donald Trump or Bernie Sanders.

529
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 8: I'm shaking her head over here.

530
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 3: Yeah I do.

531
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 8: I mean, I think you're somewhat of an anomaly.

532
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:50,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

533
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 5: I think that a lot of a lot of people

534
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 5: in the industry would just like to see this this

535
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 5: time come and go, and I personally think we're stuck

536
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 5: with this.

537
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,439
Speaker 4: I think something that's fascinating along the same lines is

538
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 4: last year, I did a study at the Geral where

539
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,399
Speaker 4: I took the hundredths one hundred poorest districts in the

540
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 4: country and just put whether they're represented by a Republican

541
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 4: or Democrat. Ten years ago, sixty three out of the

542
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 4: hundred districts were represented by Democrats. And that's what we

543
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 4: would think poor urban districts. In the last election, it

544
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 4: was literally the opposite. Sixty three of the one hundred

545
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 4: were represented by Republicans, which are rural Trump districts.

546
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:26,199
Speaker 3: And the point is.

547
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 4: That that's your Republican party. It's not the Republican party

548
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 4: that we think of a lot of republic party right

549
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 4: about the book is the Reagan pro business, free trade, cut,

550
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 4: corporate tax.

551
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 3: That party isn't really there anymore, and we're passing to

552
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 3: see how that changes.

553
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 6: Yeah, and so you've got a lot of progressive Democrats,

554
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 6: like you said, not taking corporate pack money anymore, not

555
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 6: as many as it should be.

556
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 3: It's in the dozens.

557
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 6: It's pathetic how low it is, but it's it's the

558
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 6: trend is in that direction. And then you've got a

559
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 6: lot of these populist Republicans as well. So how is

560
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:58,120
Speaker 6: how is corporate America adapting?

561
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 4: I think it's I think right now. I mean the

562
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 4: lobby so I talked to our sounds crazy, are literally scared.

563
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 4: I mean the people who they normally go to, the

564
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 4: people who they normally go to for help aren't there anymore.

565
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 3: A good example is Josh Holly.

566
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 4: Josh Holly represents Missouri, not a state that's doing well

567
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 4: these days. He is a Republican. I'm sure he used

568
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 4: to be a Reagan Republican. He has three bills right

569
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 4: now with Elizabeth Warren. One would cap credit card fees,

570
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,360
Speaker 4: which is like a great idea if you're a Democrat.

571
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 8: This is a Republican, weren't from a wealthy coastal state,

572
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 8: right right.

573
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 4: He's got a build to make it easier to join

574
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 4: labor unions, and he's got a bill to claw back

575
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 4: bonuses for banks and fail and these are all terrific

576
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 4: ideas if you're a Democrat. The fact that a Republican

577
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 4: is on those like they're probably even talk to Ellazith

578
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 4: Warner's kind of uh, kind of amazing right now, Liz Warren.

579
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 4: And so I mean that just shows how the party

580
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 4: is changing. And it seems like every time a pro

581
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 4: business Reagan iit, Senator eves like Rob Portman, you get

582
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 4: a JD. Vance who's much more populist replacement, and the

583
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 4: Senate and the House needed to be slowly changing that direction.

584
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 4: Another example, a year and a half ago, there was

585
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 4: a bill in Congress to give the Federal Trade Commission

586
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 4: to give the federal government more money and more power

587
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 4: to look into and block corporate mergers. This is something

588
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 4: that Republicans would be against forever, giving the government more

589
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 4: power to look into corporate mergers.

590
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 3: Forty actually it was thirty nine House Republicans voted for

591
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 3: that bill.

592
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 4: So basically, tax big companies to give the government more

593
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 4: power to look into corporate mergers.

594
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 3: I mean, the political world is changing here.

595
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 6: But here's what I mean about Washington adapting to this

596
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 6: new system. As soon as there's this populist wave and

597
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 6: as soon as people start to get control of their

598
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 6: members of Congress again, like all right, now Hawley is

599
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 6: responsive to actual Missouri Republicans.

600
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 3: All of a sudden, lawmakers don't matter anymore.

601
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,239
Speaker 6: And it's just what they call the bi for uh,

602
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 6: you know, the Senate leaders, the Senate Democratic Leader, Senate

603
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 6: Republican Leader, House Democratic Leader, House Republican Leader, and then

604
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 6: you've got four hundred and thirty three NPC's basically on

605
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 6: in the House, who are just kind of told what

606
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 6: the deal is that was struck between these big four.

607
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 6: You and I were talking last night about how it

608
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 6: was much more interesting how things were able to get done, say,

609
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 6: ten years ago. But now just as people are getting

610
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 6: a hold of the system, the system is like, actually,

611
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 6: we're not doing it like that anymore.

612
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 3: Right.

613
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 5: The collapse of regular order, which is you know, how

614
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 5: a bill be comes along, you know, the Schoolhouse rock.

615
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 5: You know, it passes the House committee, a committee, a committee,

616
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 5: the House, the floor of the House of Representatives goes

617
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 5: over to the Senate. Senate goes to this similar process

618
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 5: and then if the bills are different in anyway.

619
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 3: At all, they're cut there.

620
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 5: You know, they call it a conference committee where the

621
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 5: you know, there's there's compromises worked out, and then it

622
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 5: goes to the White House for either a signature or veto.

623
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 5: And I don't have the stats on this, but my

624
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 5: guess is the bills that go through regular order in

625
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 5: the last five six election cycles, you know, Congresses, this

626
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 5: really really limited.

627
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 3: So it used to used to be the case back.

628
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 5: In the Podesta manifort, you know Tommy Bogg's era, where

629
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 5: if you had the ear of an important chairman, say

630
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 5: the Banking Committee chairman or the Appropriations Committee chairman, that

631
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 5: chairman decided he was with you as a lobbyist and

632
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 5: was going to insert your language and a bill. The

633
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 5: whole system is different in that, you know, that smoke

634
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 5: filled room or that quiet conversation was quietly inserted and

635
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 5: voted on, and the and the members on both sides

636
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 5: kind of were team players in a way that they

637
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 5: just currently aren't.

638
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll let that slide.

639
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 5: Who care, Yes, the chairman wants it, this is his,

640
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 5: you know, the prerogative of the chairman, and you know,

641
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 5: the leaders were inclined to help the chairman, and before

642
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 5: you knew it, you know, your language is stuffed in

643
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 5: an appropriations bill or some other type of vehicle that's

644
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 5: going to become law. These days, you know, members towing

645
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 5: the line for their chairman is I don't want to

646
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 5: say it's not done, because it still is. But the

647
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 5: amount of media coverage from websites or mainstream media or

648
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 5: you know, bloggers makes everything such a transparent process. There's

649
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 5: so much pressure on these members from different constituencies that

650
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 5: care about different issues, where these things really get nitpicked,

651
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 5: and it's cratered the whole kind of legislative experience in

652
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 5: a way where they're not getting almost anything done through

653
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 5: committees anymore. And we have these, you know, these fits

654
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 5: where we kind of bump up against the deadline and

655
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 5: we have to fund the federal government and you know

656
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 5: we'll pass we call it a Christmas Tree omnibus type

657
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 5: legislator vehicle that has you know, some stuff that Chuck

658
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 5: Schumer wants, some stuff that Mike Johnson wants, and you know,

659
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 5: it passes. And it's kind of how the Ukraine Israel

660
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 5: funding kind of came to be.

661
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 3: You know, enough people decided something.

662
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 5: Had to happen where you know, the Big Four hash

663
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 5: it out rather than the Foreign Affairs Committee.

664
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 3: So if you're a lobbyist, then how do you do it?

665
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 6: Like, how do you You just have to have somebody

666
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 6: who knows Chuck Schumer and they'll get it in.

667
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I was gonna rewind for a quick

668
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 4: history lesson or a reminder. So before Watergate, power was

669
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 4: held by the government in based by three people, the President,

670
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 4: the House Speaker, and the sena MAJORI leader. They were

671
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,239
Speaker 4: all guys and there are just a few lobbyists. And

672
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 4: if they had a relationship with those one of those

673
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 4: three or two or those three, you get anything done

674
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 4: you want.

675
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 3: There's less rutiny.

676
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 4: Like you said, after Watergate, the country rebelled against that system.

677
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 4: We elected fifty or sixty reformers who came to Washington,

678
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 4: who who changed government power and took power from the

679
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 4: White House and moved it to Congress and from the

680
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 4: cougrecial leaders and push it down to committees and subcommittees

681
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 4: and give everyone lots of power, so that tons of

682
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 4: people were committee chairman of sub committee chairman, Tommy Boggs,

683
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 4: one of the top lobbyists of that era, used to

684
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,399
Speaker 4: joke that when he went up to Capitol Hill and said, hey,

685
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 4: mister chairman, half the people would turn around because have

686
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 4: to eat more sub Committee chairman. And it shows a

687
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 4: power diffuse that, as Sam is saying, has started to

688
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 4: kind of boil back together, where power is going back

689
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 4: to just the House lead House and Senate leaders and

690
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 4: the White House. If Trump is elected, that's reelected, that's

691
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:32,919
Speaker 4: really going to push things back to the White House again.

692
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 4: I mean Trump just openly doesn't do anything in Congress.

693
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 4: He just legislates and tries to create laws through the

694
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 4: executive branch and through executive orders. So I think that

695
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 4: if he is re elected, we're going to go back

696
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 4: to that era where there's just a handful of really

697
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 4: important lobbyists. Power will be not just in the Trump administration,

698
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 4: but really just in the White House or really just

699
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 4: in the Oble Office. I mean, he just does things

700
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 4: on his own, So it's really going to bring us

701
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,479
Speaker 4: back to an era that we sort of moved from.

702
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 8: That brings me to a.

703
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 7: Question I really wanted to put to both of you,

704
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 7: based on an anecdote of just of my own. I

705
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 7: was once in a green room with a fairly high

706
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 7: profile media personality, and I think I was ranting about

707
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 7: lobbying or something like that, and this person sort of

708
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 7: took me aside and said, you know, a lot of

709
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 7: people don't realize this, but lobbying is actually a good thing,

710
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 7: because otherwise nobody would know what to put in these bills.

711
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:24,479
Speaker 8: The lobbyists are the.

712
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:28,360
Speaker 7: Only ones who know intimately some of these issues, because

713
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 7: congressional staffers are twenty five, have a million things in

714
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 7: their portfolio and have no idea what is actually going

715
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 7: on in this district in let's say Missouri. So I

716
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 7: think that's probably true, but also ridiculous.

717
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 8: Defense.

718
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 7: I still don't want to put that out to both

719
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 7: of you to see if you have thoughts on you know,

720
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 7: maybe people like myself Ryan rage against the industry. You know,

721
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 7: if we got what we wanted, just eliminated at whatever,

722
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 7: what are the downsides and that sort of hypethetical world.

723
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 3: You know.

724
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 5: I was raised by two very liberal parents. My dad

725
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 5: was a criminal defense attorney who represented violent criminals, and

726
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 5: he raised me saying that you know, you may not

727
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:20,359
Speaker 5: like my clients, but their rights to be defended make

728
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:21,280
Speaker 5: this country great.

729
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 3: And I don't know that I necessarily.

730
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 5: Like bought it when I was a kid, but I

731
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 5: used the arguments against this is a good rhetoric. I

732
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 5: used it against them when I became a lobbyist, Like

733
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 5: my clients deserve the right to complain about Congress speech,

734
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 5: Like yeah, like they don't do everything great, and you know,

735
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,320
Speaker 5: to tell anyone they don't have the right to amplify

736
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 5: their voice to complain that they're getting something wrong. And

737
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 5: the more you get to know members of Congress, the

738
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 5: more you know they definitely aren not exactly getting things

739
00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 5: exactly right. So you know, it's the first Amendment. And

740
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,720
Speaker 5: I'm proud to you know, represent my clients and tell

741
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 5: staff or the members themselves why we think they got

742
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 5: it wrong.

743
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:12,879
Speaker 7: And do you think they appreciate it sometimes because they

744
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 7: genuinely are unaware of things that you bring to them.

745
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean depends if we're going in with someone

746
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 5: that's really working hard against what we're trying to accomplish.

747
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 5: But yeah, for the most part, you know, you know,

748
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:26,879
Speaker 5: we have a lot of clients, so you know, it's

749
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 5: not in my business model to you know, kind of

750
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 5: blow up one relationship over one single issue. So you know, I,

751
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,240
Speaker 5: you know, sometimes I go in and it's for something

752
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 5: very good that everyone here would think it's the right

753
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 5: thing to do, and you know, maybe the next week not.

754
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 6: And part of the history here, and you could talk

755
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:46,760
Speaker 6: about this a little bit, is that it was deliberate

756
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 6: in the sense that lawmaking was privatized by new Gingrich

757
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,879
Speaker 6: when when Gingrich took over after the ninety four wave,

758
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 6: he got rid of what was called what was it

759
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 6: called his Democratic Study Group.

760
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:00,320
Speaker 3: And he took book.

761
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 6: So there was basically this entire apparatus that existed in

762
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 6: Congress where members could and their staff could get help

763
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 6: doing legislation from basically tech people who were just technically

764
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 6: proficient at it. And Gingrich just took an axe to

765
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 6: it and said, you know what, and cut, you know,

766
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 6: cut staff salaries, cut cuts member office budgets such that

767
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,840
Speaker 6: it was just no longer you know, physically possible for

768
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 6: them to write legislation like oh, that's did he have

769
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 6: a Plan B?

770
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 3: And yes, he did have a Plan B. It was

771
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 3: K Street. And so then he also then.

772
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 6: At the same time insisted that that was delayed right

773
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 6: through the K Street project, saying you got to hire

774
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 6: Republicans because at the time there's so many Democrats from

775
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 6: the legacy era.

776
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:46,720
Speaker 3: It's controlling Washington.

777
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,720
Speaker 7: Well, ideologically it made more sense for a Republican like KNUW. Gingrich,

778
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:54,359
Speaker 7: who was limited government, pro free enterprise, pro slash pro

779
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,280
Speaker 7: corporate at the time, that union made a lot more sense.

780
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 6: And so he basically privatized the function of legislating out

781
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 6: to Case And it did become true that the only

782
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 6: people that knew how to do it.

783
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:07,439
Speaker 3: Were Case Street.

784
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I said before that lobbyists, good lobbies are translators.

785
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:16,320
Speaker 4: They're also subject matter experts. I mean, our federal government

786
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 4: are all of our agencies are incredibly complicated, incredibly bureaucratic,

787
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 4: incredibly hard understanding.

788
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:22,800
Speaker 3: The laws are written by lawyers.

789
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 4: Who are, you know, not the easiest people that understand sometimes,

790
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 4: so creating laws and legilation is very difficult.

791
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:32,279
Speaker 3: This subject matter is very difficult. You're regulating industries.

792
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 4: That have incredibly complicated business models and plans, so you

793
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 4: want experts writing the law. Unfortunately, the people who are

794
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,360
Speaker 4: working on working in commerce are really twenty five or

795
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 4: thirty five year old at most. You know, they're not

796
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 4: expert experts. And it's not the it's not their fault.

797
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 4: It's just that they haven't had that experience. So therefore,

798
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 4: as you say, lobbyies sort of become the experts. I

799
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 4: know for myself as a reporter, I rely on lobbyists

800
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 4: lots of times to understand rules and regulations because they

801
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 4: used to work at the EPA and the Air and

802
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,319
Speaker 4: un or subcommittee where they wrote the law, and it

803
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 4: could explain to me why this law of provision is

804
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 4: the way it is or isn't. The issue is that,

805
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 4: in fact, going back to Framer, of the country knew

806
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 4: that the government wasn't going to create rules of regulations

807
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 4: in a vacuum. They knew there'd be these interest groups lobbyists,

808
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 4: they call them factions back then. What they thought, though,

809
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:18,839
Speaker 4: is that to be sort of a fair fight, it'd

810
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 4: be labor unions against environmental groups against corporate lobbyists. And

811
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:24,399
Speaker 4: what we've seen in the last ten years or twenty

812
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 4: years is that it's really just the corporate lobby ot there.

813
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 4: Unions have been decimated. Ralph Nader used to be incredibly influential.

814
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:32,840
Speaker 4: He doesn't exist anymore public although.

815
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 6: You try to get him on, he doesn't do zoom anymore.

816
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 6: He said he would do it by phone. Oh interesting,

817
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:39,399
Speaker 6: he said, didn't want to zoom.

818
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 3: Yeah. But the point is I did talk to him.

819
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 3: The point is in this era he's a big character

820
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 3: in your book. That's is Yeah, whis why I mentioned

821
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:46,760
Speaker 3: when reached.

822
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 4: Down to well to roll back on that in the

823
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 4: nineteen seventies and nineteen sixties, Ralph Nader might have been

824
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:53,840
Speaker 4: the most influential person In watching Ralph Nader, people.

825
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 3: May not realize that how powerful. It's kind of unthinkable exactly.

826
00:40:57,520 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 3: That's kind of the point that.

827
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 6: Is seen in mad Men. Have you seen I saw it?

828
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 6: There was a scene in Madmen where there's a corporation

829
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 6: has a problem. In terms of the problem is Ralph Nader?

830
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 6: Is there anything you guys they're going to all their

831
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,359
Speaker 6: powerful firms working for him?

832
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:16,800
Speaker 3: Is there anything you can do about Ralph there? And

833
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:18,759
Speaker 3: they're like, no, no, there is not.

834
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:23,359
Speaker 4: Well, Ralph Nader took on General Motors back when what

835
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 4: was good for GM is good for the country, and

836
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 4: he took them on and won on auto safety regulation,

837
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 4: which shows one how much power and influence he had.

838
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 3: But also companies.

839
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:33,879
Speaker 4: Didn't have any influence until the nineteen seventies, nineteen eighties,

840
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 4: and so today the problem is, you know, there's nothing

841
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 4: inherently wrong or illegal with lobbyists. As you say, lobbyists

842
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 4: have the right to petition their government. They have the

843
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,760
Speaker 4: right to raise money and give campaand donations. The problem

844
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 4: is that lobby is the only voice being heard because

845
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 4: the other side just doesn't have the resources that they

846
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 4: used to have. So so, in fact, for a book,

847
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:55,320
Speaker 4: we spoke to a professor who had done a study

848
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 4: and he talked to seventy corporate lobbyists and said, hey,

849
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 4: who is the number one person you're fighting against?

850
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,399
Speaker 3: And not one of them's at a labor union. Some

851
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 3: companies are not.

852
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 4: The other side of company fights isn't labor union, other

853
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 4: corporate lobbist, right, It's company against companies these days.

854
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 6: And so and sometimes it seems like companies are just

855
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 6: or going back to the parasite host UH situation. Sometimes

856
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 6: you'll have people in Washington just kind of create feels like,

857
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 6: create problems for corporations who then have to then come

858
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 6: in and pay lobbyists who are their friends to solve

859
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 6: those problems. Very much like how the mob would go

860
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 6: to UH, you know, to a small business right and

861
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 6: be like, you know, would you like to put me

862
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 6: on retainer to make sure your your window doesn't get smashed?

863
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:45,919
Speaker 8: Would you like me to advertise in axios for a week?

864
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 3: And they're like, what you're talking about?

865
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:50,320
Speaker 6: There's no crime here my windows.

866
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 5: I've never I've never extorted anyone, but uh, you bring

867
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 5: up a disturb and maybe bring up point about axios right,

868
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 5: Like it's like back in the day, back in the

869
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 5: Tommy bogs mana fort era. You know, our job was

870
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 5: to you know, transcribe and track a mundane, boring committee

871
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 5: hearing right well now beg of big of is a

872
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:20,799
Speaker 5: bloomberg function of their news outlet or political pro or

873
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:22,399
Speaker 5: action shows or punch bowl.

874
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 3: They performed these services more and more.

875
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:29,399
Speaker 5: You know, we're competing with media for jobs that used

876
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 5: to be our jobs, like those you know from south Park,

877
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 5: those our gerbs, you know, thought Brody says in the book,

878
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 5: I found the most interesting parts of the book, the

879
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:42,800
Speaker 5: media parts.

880
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 3: Roll Call was this sleepy Uh did you write for

881
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 3: role Call? Never did no, but I seem all the time,

882
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,759
Speaker 3: you know, we wrote for Politico Political it was two

883
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 3: days a week roll Call.

884
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:56,720
Speaker 5: And then in your book, and like the fifth chapter

885
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 5: you talk about how they went to five days a

886
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 5: week and ultimately seven days a week, not because they

887
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 5: had so much content, they had advertising dollars. So you know,

888
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 5: like I listened to these conversations and you go on

889
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 5: rants about lobbyists and like I feel this like it's

890
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:13,720
Speaker 5: all of us here, like you know, like we're journals.

891
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:17,800
Speaker 5: We live in this political industrial complex where the media

892
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,319
Speaker 5: outlets or have a vested interest in taking the job

893
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 5: that you know some kid used to do at a

894
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 5: lobbying firm and transcribing a hearing transcript and now you know,

895
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 5: one click of the button and Bloomberg or political pro

896
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 5: or punch Bowler doing it. And you know, no one

897
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 5: is is hitting this twenty percent threshold, so no one's registered.

898
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:43,239
Speaker 5: And you know, I just though you are registered, I am,

899
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 5: and you got all that. You have a lot of data,

900
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 5: I do. Well, we can put this next chart up

901
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:47,839
Speaker 5: on this.

902
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:50,479
Speaker 3: No data on any of you three?

903
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:51,280
Speaker 8: Right?

904
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 7: Well, no, I mean I think it's interesting because not

905
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:55,839
Speaker 7: you probably rub Ebbels with a lot of people who

906
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:58,720
Speaker 7: don't register. So here's Sam twenty eighteen in the top

907
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 7: I think you were the top ten that year. Of

908
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 7: lobby registered lobbyists. It's actually incorrect to say lobbyists, because

909
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 7: there are a whole lot of people doing a whole

910
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 7: lot of lobbying without registering in political contributions. This is

911
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:12,879
Speaker 7: just some general stuff. On the left and the right

912
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:15,240
Speaker 7: of the screen you see total spending a lobbyists adjusted

913
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:18,399
Speaker 7: for inflation over time. And then on the right, although

914
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 7: it only starts in I think nineteen ninety eight, on

915
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 7: the right you see in twenty twenty three, So last

916
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 7: year the biggest spenders US Chamber of Commerce, National Association

917
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:31,399
Speaker 7: of Realtors, American Hospital Association, Blue Cross, Blue Shield. Down

918
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:34,880
Speaker 7: to the bottom you get Amazon Business Roundtable, Meta, et cetera.

919
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 7: But I mean saying that's quarter of a million, two

920
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:41,879
Speaker 7: hundred and forty six thousand dollars in contributions that year

921
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 7: twenty eighteen, actually less than.

922
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 8: I would have thought. And you see C. Boyd and Gray,

923
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 8: big conservative lobbyists.

924
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 3: I think it used to be at the top, weren't you.

925
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 3: There was There was a time when I was more

926
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:55,320
Speaker 3: number one, or shoot.

927
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 7: I just met all of the because you see the

928
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,800
Speaker 7: difference between Boyd and Gray and the person on underneath

929
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 7: him huge, So even the second highest person here. We're

930
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 7: talking about five hundred thousand dollars. That's actually less than

931
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 7: I would have expected.

932
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 6: Because it's interesting because that's nothing for like an I e.

933
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 6: In a in a campaign now like independent expenditure, a

934
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:15,439
Speaker 6: super pack.

935
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 3: That's all a spread out you know, you can only

936
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 3: give right back around.

937
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 6: That's seven hundred thousand spread out among lots of members

938
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:23,319
Speaker 6: they'll come in with.

939
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 3: There used to be a cap. Some the Supreme Court

940
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 3: cut rid of.

941
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 6: The cap, I think, but what's not a cap on

942
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 6: individual cap? Supreme Court Supreme Court cut rid of the

943
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 6: there was an overall cap of what you could give,

944
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 6: not anymore.

945
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 8: To same' spoint.

946
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 7: What's not included in that is all the money that

947
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:43,400
Speaker 7: the Chamber and Business Roundtable and Amazon spent on Politico

948
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 7: and axios and events and all kinds of stuff like that.

949
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 8: There's different things happening under the curtain.

950
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 6: One quick story on that, and I want to hear

951
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 6: your response to this. I was told that, and I

952
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 6: think this is in my second book, that Pelosi, before

953
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 6: she would take a meeting with a trade group, trade association,

954
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,840
Speaker 6: a lobbyist group basically would ask to see Politico, the

955
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 6: Hill and Roll Call, which are the three print publications

956
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 6: that are circulated free on Capitol Hill, And she'd go

957
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 6: through and look to see if they had full page ads.

958
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 6: Those are ten twenty thousand dollars a pop. And if

959
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 6: they had in each one, then that was a proxy

960
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 6: kind of for how much water they're drawing in town,

961
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 6: Like how much?

962
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 3: How seriously do I need to take these people based.

963
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 6: On how much they're going to be spending in Town's like, ooh,

964
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 6: full page ads in every single one. But it doesn't

965
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 6: show up on Open Seat, right, But that wouldn't show

966
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 6: up as although it might if they had to spend

967
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 6: it through some lobby shot anyway, any event, how does

968
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 6: the media play it a part in lobbying today in

969
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:45,720
Speaker 6: the way that it didn't before.

970
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 4: It's a great question. So members of Congress get their

971
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 4: information in various ways. You can get it from your staffer,

972
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:53,239
Speaker 4: you can get it from a lobbyist, or you get

973
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:56,320
Speaker 4: it from the media. And for the last few decades,

974
00:47:56,680 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 4: members of Congress and staff you read these publications.

975
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:01,320
Speaker 3: Where you know, I work for many of them. I

976
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 3: work for Congress DAYLA, work for Roll Call.

977
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 4: There's also political and punch Ble, and members of Congress

978
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:08,439
Speaker 4: hit staff need to read these publications and know what's

979
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:12,280
Speaker 4: going on Capitol Hill. But the reporters are also writing

980
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:14,799
Speaker 4: stories about you know this this credit card cap bill,

981
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 4: how is it doing? How many sponsor does it have?

982
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:18,239
Speaker 4: Is it getting committee hearing? Does it have momentum? Does

983
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 4: it not have momentum? And lobbyists and interest groups have

984
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 4: realized if you can sort of lobby the reporters, if

985
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 4: you can influence those stories, it's another way of getting

986
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 4: to a member of Congress, either through ads or actually

987
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 4: talking to reporters. So one of our main characters a

988
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:33,719
Speaker 4: guy named Jim Kordovic, who realized this first that if

989
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:36,319
Speaker 4: you can go and be friends with the reporters who

990
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:38,400
Speaker 4: are writing the stories for Capitol Hill and get your

991
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:40,400
Speaker 4: client's message into one of those stories. You know, this

992
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:42,280
Speaker 4: credit card bill has got a lot of momentum.

993
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 3: It's going to pass. You should jump on board. Do

994
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 3: you want to be with the winner?

995
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 4: Or conversely, you know no one's going to you know

996
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 4: this Bilitic gate killed and subcommittee, doesn't you know, why

997
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:52,280
Speaker 4: waste your time becoming a co sponsor of the bbilicying

998
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 4: to go anyway? They would sort of try to influence

999
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,800
Speaker 4: these stories to create momentum for bills or against bills,

1000
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:00,160
Speaker 4: and he was sort of a genius at him talk

1001
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 4: about how he did that, because it's kind of a

1002
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:06,839
Speaker 4: Washington classic Washington. Until recently, he was not registered as

1003
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 4: a lobbyist, but he would throw parties.

1004
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:10,240
Speaker 3: He'd throw big parties in Washington.

1005
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:15,720
Speaker 4: He'd invite reporters, he'd invite members of Congress, he'd invite lobbies,

1006
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:17,879
Speaker 4: kind of whoever is like a boldface name in DC.

1007
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:21,800
Speaker 4: And then he would send his guest list to Axio

1008
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:24,360
Speaker 4: sort of punch hol didn't exist back then, or a playbook,

1009
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:26,279
Speaker 4: and people would write about his story to sort of

1010
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:28,840
Speaker 4: further elevate the mystique about these great parties would have

1011
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:30,960
Speaker 4: so everyone in Washington, all the players wanted to go

1012
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 4: to these parties, and he would sort of use them

1013
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:36,080
Speaker 4: for his business. One he would tell clients, Hey, look

1014
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 4: at all these important people I know. But two, he'd

1015
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 4: sort of befriend reporters who we can then go to

1016
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:43,799
Speaker 4: and say like, hey, you know this bill is coming up.

1017
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:45,279
Speaker 4: You know you should write about it or not write

1018
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 4: about it, or here's you know. He could sort of

1019
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 4: create relationship with reporters to then try to pitch his

1020
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:53,760
Speaker 4: client's interests to get to the eyeballs and members of Congress.

1021
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 7: So we'll add this in post. But I had to

1022
00:49:57,000 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 7: mention this was a couple of weeks ago. I got

1023
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 7: the act Yes morning newsletter, so it's May tenth, and

1024
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 7: at the top I always look at who's presenting it

1025
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 7: that day, because it's their corporate sponsor. It's presented by BP.

1026
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:10,399
Speaker 7: And then down the second item, not even like down

1027
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 7: far at number ten. The second item was called Trump's

1028
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:17,400
Speaker 7: Big Oil bargain, and it was basically criticizing Donal Trump

1029
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:20,400
Speaker 7: for making a bargain with big oil in a newsletter

1030
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 7: that was clearly a bargain between the media outlet and

1031
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 7: big oil. And that happens literally every day if you

1032
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 7: read Playbook or punch Bowl or whatever. But in that sense,

1033
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:31,080
Speaker 7: I mean, it's so egregious. I think if you had

1034
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:34,000
Speaker 7: done that, I don't know, twenty years ago, it would

1035
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:35,399
Speaker 7: have been a lot people would have been a lot

1036
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:36,800
Speaker 7: more grossed out by it.

1037
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 8: It seems like that's true.

1038
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 4: I remember twenty years ago or so, maybe fifteen years ago,

1039
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 4: the Washington Post had this idea of having salon dinners

1040
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 4: where you would invite a member of Congress, I think,

1041
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 4: and have sponsors paid for it.

1042
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 3: And people got fired over that.

1043
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 4: I mean they were a laugh out of town and

1044
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 4: everyone said, this is a horrible idea.

1045
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 3: How this is pay to play?

1046
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:58,080
Speaker 6: Now everyone does it, right, It's the thing that funds

1047
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 6: what semaphore punchble. Actually, like the main thing that's funny

1048
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 6: them is these corporate events, right and.

1049
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 4: The wo we have big conferences all the time where

1050
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 4: people pay to sponsor the events.

1051
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's part of the business durals and model. Now.

1052
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 5: I remember I was getting those types of emails from

1053
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:15,840
Speaker 5: these media outlets and.

1054
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 3: I tried to blow one up.

1055
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:18,919
Speaker 2: I did.

1056
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:22,239
Speaker 5: I did so I would respond like, if I pay

1057
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:26,280
Speaker 5: this much, can I sit next to whoever the post

1058
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 5: is hosting and will they absolutely vote yes? Like just

1059
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 5: like you know, like kind of like you know, like

1060
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 5: I don't know, like the jerky boys, I like get

1061
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:36,319
Speaker 5: them in a frank phone call. So, and I mean

1062
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 5: emailing with like a serious person and she's not getting

1063
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 5: my sarcasm.

1064
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:42,399
Speaker 3: She's like ironyar at all?

1065
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 5: Right, So I'm like, how much do I need to

1066
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 5: get a yes voted? You know, like just back and

1067
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 5: forth and you know before after a while she realized

1068
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 5: I was just you know, goof and on her or whatever.

1069
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:55,400
Speaker 5: So you know, she goes dark and I sent the

1070
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:59,360
Speaker 5: emails to you guys. I mean, like, it's not just

1071
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:03,279
Speaker 5: the lobby, it's this whole city. It's like everyone in it.

1072
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 6: You weren't offended at the behavior, You were offended at

1073
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 6: the competition.

1074
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 5: Well, I'm offended at the moral preenening over lobbyists are

1075
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 5: bad while I'm being asked to give money to a

1076
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 5: salon dinner that's not reportable, non non disclosed, so someone

1077
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 5: else can stuff money in their pockets and accuse lobbyists

1078
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:22,320
Speaker 5: of being crooked. Like, at least we register, at least

1079
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:23,439
Speaker 5: our data is out there.

1080
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's all I'm saying.

1081
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 4: You put up a stat earlier from Open Secrets. There's

1082
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 4: thirteen thousand registered lobbists in DC. There's five or six

1083
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 4: million people who live in the Washington, DC area. And

1084
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 4: if you're not working for a school or a bus driver,

1085
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 4: or work in retail or maybe university or drinals, like,

1086
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 4: you're here to affect policy and legislation. And what Stam's

1087
00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 4: point is that he needs to register and disclose activities

1088
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:51,279
Speaker 4: and there's millions of people who don't, and you know,

1089
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:52,879
Speaker 4: and that's that's not right.

1090
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:55,239
Speaker 7: Well, although there was a point made earlier that you know,

1091
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 7: the requirements to register created in a sense, more corruption

1092
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:02,359
Speaker 7: and because people were just not registering. So I pose

1093
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 7: this question to both of you, what, if anything, do

1094
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 7: you think, based on your experience reporting this living that

1095
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 7: needs to change, either in media or in lobbying or

1096
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:15,440
Speaker 7: in the entire political industrial complex to make the system

1097
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 7: more fair.

1098
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 4: So I don't think we can regulate and we shouldn't

1099
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:20,839
Speaker 4: regulate speech or money. I think we should do things

1100
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 4: to make things more fair, and I think ultimately have

1101
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 4: more disclosure. Again, in your stats that you put up

1102
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:30,440
Speaker 4: a few minutes ago, it showed in two thousand and seven,

1103
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:30,879
Speaker 4: how are.

1104
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:32,520
Speaker 3: Many lobbyists are were at that moment when we.

1105
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:36,400
Speaker 4: Passed the law to ban gift giving by members of

1106
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:39,359
Speaker 4: Congress and lobbyists, the number of lobbyists every year went down,

1107
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:41,799
Speaker 4: you know, and that's crazy. If anyone who thinks there

1108
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:44,600
Speaker 4: are fewer lobbyists today than there were two and seven,

1109
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 4: you know, it's crazy. So people are just gaming the system.

1110
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 4: So there should be disclosure of everyone who's trying to

1111
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:51,320
Speaker 4: influence legislation.

1112
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 3: I think that's.

1113
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 4: Totally fine, and then the American publicans say I like

1114
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 4: that or I don't like that, and use their vote.

1115
00:53:56,719 --> 00:53:59,040
Speaker 4: I think the same thing for money, it seems to

1116
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 4: me un fair at the political parties, who you would

1117
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:06,399
Speaker 4: think should be the most important voice in campaigns are

1118
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:09,200
Speaker 4: the ones that face most onerous rules and regulations on

1119
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:14,200
Speaker 4: their campaign donations. And the billionaires have no regulations. We

1120
00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:16,400
Speaker 4: don't even know who they are, what they want, and

1121
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:19,360
Speaker 4: they're spending money. However, you mentioned the example in Oregon.

1122
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:21,000
Speaker 4: They're doing whatever they want and we don't know what

1123
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:23,280
Speaker 4: they're doing. It seems like let's just have a fair fight.

1124
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:26,760
Speaker 8: What they're doing with the Washington Post, for example.

1125
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 9: The Salon dinners or well, no, what Jeff Bezos billionaires,

1126
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 9: I mean, we have to take the Posts word for it,

1127
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:34,879
Speaker 9: or Access puts at the bottom of their letters that

1128
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:38,279
Speaker 9: you know, their partners don't affect the editorial content, so

1129
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:38,959
Speaker 9: you just have to take.

1130
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:39,400
Speaker 8: Their word for it.

1131
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 6: Right, How would public financing change Washington? So there was

1132
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:50,280
Speaker 6: a bill by John Sarbanes, who actually this is quite

1133
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 6: quite ironic, and we covered this briefly. John Sarbanes, the

1134
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:57,600
Speaker 6: son of Paul Sarbines, fought his entire career in Congress

1135
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 6: for public financing and again dark money in Washington. That

1136
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:05,600
Speaker 6: was his one issue. He retired this year. He was

1137
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:08,280
Speaker 6: replaced by a woman who won because she got millions

1138
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:09,360
Speaker 6: of dollars dark.

1139
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:12,720
Speaker 3: Money contributions from I mean, there's no doubt done.

1140
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:15,799
Speaker 4: If you remove money from the system, the system will

1141
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:16,200
Speaker 4: be better.

1142
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:18,200
Speaker 3: I just don't think you can remove money from it.

1143
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:20,279
Speaker 6: Well, I don't think you can remove money, but on

1144
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:23,000
Speaker 6: the equalizing front, because like the Supreme Court's clear, they're

1145
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:25,680
Speaker 6: going to let the billionaires and others do whatever they want.

1146
00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:29,360
Speaker 6: But his bill would have said the federal government will match,

1147
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:31,400
Speaker 6: and they were gonna He had a clever way that

1148
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:36,560
Speaker 6: corporations who got fined by the SEC that money would

1149
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:39,759
Speaker 6: go into a fund that would then so it.

1150
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 3: Is corporate funded. So corporate it is corporate funded, yes.

1151
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:45,320
Speaker 8: And putting more corporate greed in policy.

1152
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:48,560
Speaker 5: It would CB is better at getting those those fees

1153
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:50,720
Speaker 5: or those those penalties than maybe the SEC.

1154
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:53,359
Speaker 3: So let's add them both in there. But it would match.

1155
00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:55,400
Speaker 6: Let's say if you gave ten dollars would match at

1156
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 6: six to one, and so it would it would try

1157
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:00,319
Speaker 6: to level the playing field and get regular people the

1158
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:03,640
Speaker 6: chance to come in uh and balance out.

1159
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:05,680
Speaker 5: Though I would just say, as like a as a

1160
00:56:05,719 --> 00:56:08,840
Speaker 5: Republican staffer, that would have been like, you know, my

1161
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:11,719
Speaker 5: hair would have been on fire. The idea of public financing,

1162
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:15,000
Speaker 5: what a waste of taxpayer dollars for campaign ads that

1163
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:16,680
Speaker 5: annoy almost every constituent.

1164
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:18,160
Speaker 3: Like you know, but.

1165
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:24,960
Speaker 5: The longer you're here and you're seeing the bedfellows change rapidly,

1166
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:30,359
Speaker 5: like we are getting, Republicans are getting outraised like three four,

1167
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:32,920
Speaker 5: five to one to Democrats.

1168
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:33,719
Speaker 8: These days, people don't realize that.

1169
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:36,840
Speaker 3: Wasn't the case. And you know, I could see me

1170
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:38,360
Speaker 3: like in swing districts.

1171
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:41,279
Speaker 5: All the billionaires in this country minus the two that

1172
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:45,560
Speaker 5: are always mentioned are Democrats, and they're giving heavily to Democrats,

1173
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:50,400
Speaker 5: you know, like this whole fact check then they're all Democrats.

1174
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:51,200
Speaker 3: That sounds like a vibe.

1175
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 7: Well, but the thing is that the two that's as

1176
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:56,120
Speaker 7: Sam said that, like we just saw Sea Boyd and

1177
00:56:56,120 --> 00:56:58,120
Speaker 7: Gray right up there. So see Boyd and Gray is

1178
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 7: just you know, quadrupling what the other guys were given, and.

1179
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:05,480
Speaker 8: He was, but he's like the Republicans that.

1180
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 5: Way, there are a lot of wealthy Democrats increasingly that

1181
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:13,960
Speaker 5: are giving their party, like you know, and I guess

1182
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:16,480
Speaker 5: I'm not complaining about it. I'm just saying, like you

1183
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:19,320
Speaker 5: could see Republicans move to a place where, you know,

1184
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:22,760
Speaker 5: if they keep getting out spent three four, five to one,

1185
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 5: maybe public finances. You know, it's just like, you know,

1186
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:28,920
Speaker 5: like I watched the statistics on Hispanic voters with Trump,

1187
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 5: and it's like, you know, maybe you know, Democrats might

1188
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:35,959
Speaker 5: want to close the border soon if it keeps going

1189
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:41,360
Speaker 5: in this direction, like you know, like you can't predict everything,

1190
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 5: and what's true today might not be true tomorrow. And

1191
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:49,520
Speaker 5: when I was a Hill staffer, I thought we'd have

1192
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:52,840
Speaker 5: a funding advantage as long as the day was long.

1193
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:55,280
Speaker 5: You know, we're never going to lose this corporate America

1194
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:58,160
Speaker 5: loves us, you know, change.

1195
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:02,520
Speaker 6: And that's the end of Brody's books. Yeah, you watched

1196
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:06,440
Speaker 6: it unravel. How did it change? How did how did

1197
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:09,760
Speaker 6: we get to a place where Republicans are no longer

1198
00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:13,920
Speaker 6: necessarily the place that's going to get the corporate contributions.

1199
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:17,560
Speaker 3: I think Trump really sped it up in sixteen.

1200
00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:22,680
Speaker 5: You know, in one election he knocked off the Bush

1201
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:25,360
Speaker 5: dynasty and the Clinton dynasty without spending a.

1202
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:27,640
Speaker 8: Dollar like two birds one stone, right, Like.

1203
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:29,920
Speaker 5: Didn't spend any of his own money either, you know,

1204
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:32,520
Speaker 5: and they he was outspent probably one hundred to one

1205
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 5: in that cycle, I'm sure. And then certainly, you know,

1206
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:42,880
Speaker 5: midway through Trump's term, corporate America started shifting on him.

1207
00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:47,160
Speaker 5: You know, they were not you know, full throated supportive

1208
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:52,200
Speaker 5: of Trump. I think that's probably when, like, you know,

1209
00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:55,080
Speaker 5: that was the tipping point when Dems really kind of

1210
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:58,400
Speaker 5: started exaggerating advantage.

1211
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:01,439
Speaker 6: Exact same time he's sending trillions corporate tax cuts through

1212
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:04,800
Speaker 6: i mean, through Paul Ryan, But how did you watch

1213
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:07,400
Speaker 6: this happen? Both things happened at the same time. What

1214
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:09,560
Speaker 6: was it like to watch that where on the one hand,

1215
00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:12,400
Speaker 6: your your your clients are getting the biggest gift they've

1216
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:15,720
Speaker 6: gotten in decades, right, and at the same time they're

1217
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:17,560
Speaker 6: so furious that the people giving them the gift.

1218
00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:21,760
Speaker 5: The clients are furious at the person giving them the gift,

1219
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:24,560
Speaker 5: and the person giving them the gift is furious right back.

1220
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:26,360
Speaker 3: And I think that was a little different. I feel

1221
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:27,240
Speaker 3: like Trump just wanted to win.

1222
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:29,320
Speaker 4: He didn't care what it was at the time, for sure,

1223
00:59:29,360 --> 00:59:31,080
Speaker 4: Ryan had teed up this big win and he just

1224
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:31,480
Speaker 4: took it.

1225
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:32,560
Speaker 3: I agree with that.

1226
00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:35,560
Speaker 4: And what's really interesting is if he wins most that

1227
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:38,440
Speaker 4: tax cut is up in the in the.

1228
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:40,320
Speaker 3: Early next year, that would be up to him.

1229
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:43,400
Speaker 4: That tax cut expires because they did it through reconciliation.

1230
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:47,640
Speaker 4: Now the most corporate tax doesn't expire, but anyway, the

1231
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:49,840
Speaker 4: whole ball of wax will be up for renewal.

1232
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:52,960
Speaker 7: And he's already allegedly promising, according to some reports, that

1233
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:54,760
Speaker 7: he'd bring back a big tax cut.

1234
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:55,840
Speaker 8: For the for the rich.

1235
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:58,560
Speaker 4: So that'll be interesting to see what actually happens because

1236
00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:01,280
Speaker 4: the biggest beneficiary, one point three trillion dollars of that

1237
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:03,880
Speaker 4: was for corporate America. And is Donald Trump going to

1238
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:06,840
Speaker 4: renew that or does he take some of that and

1239
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:10,400
Speaker 4: give it to his consistent constituents, which he could, you know,

1240
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:12,160
Speaker 4: the sort of more blue collar workers.

1241
01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:17,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, the shifting demographics that the party is

1242
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 5: taking more seriously right now, would lead you to believe

1243
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:25,120
Speaker 5: that this Republican Party in twenty twenty five, whatever comes

1244
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:28,800
Speaker 5: our way with the election in the Senate, it would

1245
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:31,520
Speaker 5: not be the same as what twenty seventeen brought U.

1246
01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:34,120
Speaker 4: Yes, which goes right to the Chamber of Commerce that

1247
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:39,680
Speaker 4: the Ways and Means Republican Chairman is launching an investigation

1248
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:41,600
Speaker 4: into the Chamber of Commerce. The Chamber of Commerce will

1249
01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:44,200
Speaker 4: be the lead lobbyist for this corporate tax cut bill.

1250
01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:47,080
Speaker 4: It's being written by the Ways It Means Chairman. I mean,

1251
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:49,240
Speaker 4: the world is upside down. But how does that dynamic

1252
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:49,560
Speaker 4: work out?

1253
01:00:49,560 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 7: That fascinating potentially the anti swamp ways and means Chairman,

1254
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:55,720
Speaker 7: because there's a lot of depending on who's elected. I mean,

1255
01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:57,959
Speaker 7: you hear a lot of that on the right these days,

1256
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:02,040
Speaker 7: and maybe not always, you know, walking the talk or

1257
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:06,360
Speaker 7: however the phrases on that question, the one this is

1258
01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:08,400
Speaker 7: maybe we'll see how you guys want to answer this.

1259
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:11,240
Speaker 7: Is there anyone you could say, is like the most

1260
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:13,080
Speaker 7: corrupt member of Congress?

1261
01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:13,720
Speaker 8: Is there anyone?

1262
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 7: I mean, Bob Menendez is a real candidate. Is there

1263
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 7: anyone or maybe even the most corrupt member of the

1264
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:22,120
Speaker 7: political industrial complex? Are there standouts right now?

1265
01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:22,840
Speaker 3: It's a hard question.

1266
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:24,480
Speaker 8: Some people would default to Hunter.

1267
01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:28,000
Speaker 7: Biden, probably James Biden, Frank Biden, we go down the

1268
01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:28,400
Speaker 7: list side.

1269
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:32,440
Speaker 4: I always felt in my time Chattel Hill and lobbying

1270
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:35,920
Speaker 4: that most people in Washington are good people here to

1271
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:38,640
Speaker 4: do the right thing, hard workers, but it's always one percent.

1272
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:42,200
Speaker 4: There was one percent of people who are corrupt and problematic,

1273
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:45,440
Speaker 4: and that means that as a reporter, there's there's five point.

1274
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:46,920
Speaker 3: Three five members of Congress. You gotta go find them.

1275
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:48,880
Speaker 4: They're the bad guys, and in lobbying sort of the

1276
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:51,520
Speaker 4: same way. But who the individuals are I don't know.

1277
01:01:51,560 --> 01:01:53,320
Speaker 4: I think right now we have probably five point three

1278
01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:56,080
Speaker 4: five scandals going on right now with members of Congress,

1279
01:01:56,120 --> 01:01:57,120
Speaker 4: so some of those are.

1280
01:01:57,040 --> 01:01:57,720
Speaker 3: Already out there.

1281
01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:03,720
Speaker 6: What's post cong life like now for lawmakers compared to before?

1282
01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:06,920
Speaker 6: Like in the past, you do your ten twenty years right,

1283
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:08,400
Speaker 6: you go out, you set up a shingle, you get

1284
01:02:08,520 --> 01:02:10,680
Speaker 6: or you get hired by a big firm, and you

1285
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:15,040
Speaker 6: know lots of people in Washington, so that's why you're valuable.

1286
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:18,400
Speaker 6: There seems to be so much more turnover now there's

1287
01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:20,640
Speaker 6: a ton more turnover. That Like, if I were a

1288
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:23,560
Speaker 6: seventy year old member of Congress retiring right now, they

1289
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:26,320
Speaker 6: might not know ninety percent of the people in the House,

1290
01:02:26,720 --> 01:02:29,800
Speaker 6: and so then that makes them worthless.

1291
01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:33,840
Speaker 5: And the staff too. I mean, it's I guess i'd

1292
01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:35,280
Speaker 5: call it a brain drain. I don't know what else

1293
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:39,760
Speaker 5: you call it. You know, twenty years ago, I would

1294
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:42,040
Speaker 5: assume the average term of a member in a safe

1295
01:02:42,080 --> 01:02:44,600
Speaker 5: district that we're you know, not concerned about getting beat

1296
01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:46,400
Speaker 5: would have been ten terms.

1297
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:48,040
Speaker 3: You know, twenty years.

1298
01:02:49,160 --> 01:02:51,680
Speaker 5: I bet it's half that now, and the staff aren't

1299
01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:57,200
Speaker 5: staying is long, so it's become it's to your point

1300
01:02:57,200 --> 01:03:01,280
Speaker 5: about educating people. You know, the members don't stay as long,

1301
01:03:01,320 --> 01:03:03,720
Speaker 5: the staff don't stay as long, and they're still dealing

1302
01:03:03,720 --> 01:03:07,640
Speaker 5: with really complex issues that you know, you need a

1303
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:10,040
Speaker 5: lot of time under your belt to become an expert

1304
01:03:10,040 --> 01:03:12,440
Speaker 5: on some of these really arcane issues.

1305
01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:16,880
Speaker 3: And you know, when we bring you know, a client in.

1306
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:20,120
Speaker 5: That can speak articulately about what a regulation means and

1307
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:22,680
Speaker 5: if it's written this way, it means this, or that

1308
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:24,920
Speaker 5: it's generally helpful.

1309
01:03:25,600 --> 01:03:28,800
Speaker 3: I really don't see anything wrong with it except the

1310
01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:29,880
Speaker 3: other sides not in there.

1311
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:36,200
Speaker 6: Like you know, if if an articulate, smart, well briefed

1312
01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:38,080
Speaker 6: person come in and talk to a twenty three year

1313
01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:40,640
Speaker 6: old who got there a year ago has no idea

1314
01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:42,280
Speaker 6: what they're doing, by the end of the meeting, they

1315
01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:43,760
Speaker 6: were like, yes, guy, sounds.

1316
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:48,200
Speaker 7: Right, Ryan was was a crunchy weed lobbyist back in

1317
01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:50,600
Speaker 7: the early oughts, and that was you know at the time.

1318
01:03:50,720 --> 01:03:53,320
Speaker 7: Now just John bayn Er other people are like have

1319
01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:55,680
Speaker 7: lobbied on behalf of cannabis. It's become a big business

1320
01:03:55,760 --> 01:03:58,160
Speaker 7: we've talked about last week, But at the time that

1321
01:03:58,320 --> 01:03:59,960
Speaker 7: was not a perspective that was well represented.

1322
01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:02,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, but also everybody knows what weed is and so

1323
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:04,560
Speaker 6: it's not the kind of thing and you can kind

1324
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:05,520
Speaker 6: of snow anybody on.

1325
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 5: I just don't agree that the other side doesn't have

1326
01:04:09,800 --> 01:04:13,040
Speaker 5: a voice. I mean, there's so much money in politics.

1327
01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:14,800
Speaker 3: Because if it's another corporation they do yeah.

1328
01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:18,160
Speaker 5: Or you know, there's a million interest groups and think

1329
01:04:18,240 --> 01:04:21,520
Speaker 5: tanks that have positions. I don't know why they take them,

1330
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:24,280
Speaker 5: but they do. I assume they're well funded. I assume

1331
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:28,760
Speaker 5: there's someone out there that cares. And look, you know,

1332
01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:30,960
Speaker 5: every time a Republican tries to do something, there's a

1333
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:32,880
Speaker 5: Democrat sitting on the other side of the aisle that

1334
01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:33,960
Speaker 5: doesn't want them to do it.

1335
01:04:34,040 --> 01:04:36,920
Speaker 7: And even on these like little municipal issues that end

1336
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:39,480
Speaker 7: up in the omnibus bills. We were talking about earmarks earlier,

1337
01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:41,920
Speaker 7: and obviously that's different now, But there are all these

1338
01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:43,760
Speaker 7: things that are crammed in, like Ted Cruz just got

1339
01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:46,520
Speaker 7: a big win in this direct flight from Houston to DCA.

1340
01:04:47,160 --> 01:04:50,280
Speaker 7: Things like that, not even necessarily partisan, but from a

1341
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:53,080
Speaker 7: business perspective, you have one airline competing with another, like

1342
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:54,400
Speaker 7: those little types of things.

1343
01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:57,080
Speaker 5: If it was a big win, then someone was opposed,

1344
01:04:57,120 --> 01:05:00,680
Speaker 5: and I'm sure they were well funded. Yeah, yeah, that's

1345
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:04,160
Speaker 5: you know, whoever was on the other side was probably

1346
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:07,880
Speaker 5: working hard to make sure Ted Cruz didn't win. You know,

1347
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:10,200
Speaker 5: with a fifty to fifty or fifty one to forty

1348
01:05:10,280 --> 01:05:13,240
Speaker 5: nine Senate and a whatever three vote margin in the House,

1349
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:18,160
Speaker 5: like you know, it's it's just incredibly difficult to win

1350
01:05:18,240 --> 01:05:21,120
Speaker 5: at all. And you know, that's kind of back to

1351
01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:27,560
Speaker 5: your book. The environment that those three lobbyists were dealing with.

1352
01:05:27,640 --> 01:05:31,080
Speaker 5: They had forty fifty seventy seat margins in the Democratic

1353
01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:34,680
Speaker 5: you know, kind of controlled house. I think it had

1354
01:05:34,720 --> 01:05:38,880
Speaker 5: been forty years of kind of solid Democratic control. It

1355
01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:42,640
Speaker 5: was just this environment, with the media landscape the way

1356
01:05:42,680 --> 01:05:45,680
Speaker 5: it is, that the margins in the House, in the

1357
01:05:45,720 --> 01:05:47,920
Speaker 5: Senate the way they are, it's.

1358
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:49,840
Speaker 3: Very hard to accomplish a lot.

1359
01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:55,000
Speaker 5: And you know, the executive orders, whether your form or

1360
01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:58,640
Speaker 5: against them, are great for four years, but you're four

1361
01:05:58,720 --> 01:06:02,280
Speaker 5: years away from them all being completely unrung when the

1362
01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:06,120
Speaker 5: opposing party wins. So you know, if Trump wins, you know,

1363
01:06:06,240 --> 01:06:08,600
Speaker 5: it'll take one hundred days and I'll have you know,

1364
01:06:08,720 --> 01:06:11,600
Speaker 5: executive orders, you know, all day long, every day and

1365
01:06:11,680 --> 01:06:13,320
Speaker 5: undo everything Biden accomplished.

1366
01:06:13,320 --> 01:06:16,240
Speaker 3: And that's no way to run a country either.

1367
01:06:17,880 --> 01:06:21,480
Speaker 5: So you know, getting back to legislating probably would be

1368
01:06:21,720 --> 01:06:23,360
Speaker 5: a better solution for the country.

1369
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:26,520
Speaker 8: More staff, higher paid staff. Yeah, but well, I mean

1370
01:06:26,600 --> 01:06:27,560
Speaker 8: really though.

1371
01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:31,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, actually, that is my populist argument that I don't

1372
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:34,800
Speaker 6: think would be I'm glad we agree on this. I

1373
01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:36,880
Speaker 6: don't It wouldn't be popular. It would be hard to

1374
01:06:36,920 --> 01:06:38,520
Speaker 6: sell to the public. But I think if you never

1375
01:06:38,520 --> 01:06:39,360
Speaker 6: made it past them.

1376
01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:41,640
Speaker 4: But if you had a million dollar salaries for members

1377
01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:44,360
Speaker 4: of Congress and their staff, would be a better place

1378
01:06:44,640 --> 01:06:45,200
Speaker 4: the public.

1379
01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:47,240
Speaker 6: The way to pitch it to the public, we look,

1380
01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:49,760
Speaker 6: you get what you pay for. If you insist on

1381
01:06:49,840 --> 01:06:53,960
Speaker 6: paying these kids thirty thousand dollars a year and never

1382
01:06:54,040 --> 01:06:56,120
Speaker 6: giving Members of Congress arrays and having them, you know,

1383
01:06:56,120 --> 01:06:57,640
Speaker 6: they have to have a place in DC and a

1384
01:06:57,680 --> 01:07:01,760
Speaker 6: place back home, then you're you're gonna get what you

1385
01:07:01,760 --> 01:07:03,160
Speaker 6: pay for. You're not gonna get anything out of them.

1386
01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:05,320
Speaker 6: The people who pay them are the ones that are

1387
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:06,160
Speaker 6: gonna get something.

1388
01:07:06,200 --> 01:07:07,520
Speaker 3: So yes, exactly, and.

1389
01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:09,400
Speaker 4: All the same time we haven't spoken about is sort

1390
01:07:09,440 --> 01:07:14,120
Speaker 4: of race and socioeconomic background. The people who can move

1391
01:07:14,160 --> 01:07:18,000
Speaker 4: to Washington and live on a twenty five or thirty

1392
01:07:18,040 --> 01:07:20,400
Speaker 4: five thousand dollar year salary. People have money from their

1393
01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:22,680
Speaker 4: parents or don't have, you know, debts to pay, or

1394
01:07:22,720 --> 01:07:25,840
Speaker 4: don't have children, or don't have other expenses. So we're

1395
01:07:25,840 --> 01:07:28,360
Speaker 4: setting just a certain amount of people to Washington to

1396
01:07:28,400 --> 01:07:28,920
Speaker 4: run the government.

1397
01:07:28,920 --> 01:07:30,000
Speaker 3: Would not agree more with this.

1398
01:07:30,240 --> 01:07:33,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, and even they their parents at some point are

1399
01:07:33,280 --> 01:07:35,439
Speaker 6: going to run out of being able to pay for them.

1400
01:07:35,960 --> 01:07:39,240
Speaker 6: So then they hit they have a kid, and now

1401
01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:42,520
Speaker 6: then the schools are so terrible around Capitol Hill that

1402
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:45,320
Speaker 6: like there's a joke on Capitol Hill that as soon

1403
01:07:45,320 --> 01:07:47,840
Speaker 6: as a staffer has a kid, it's like up, they're

1404
01:07:47,840 --> 01:07:48,240
Speaker 6: gonna start.

1405
01:07:48,240 --> 01:07:50,400
Speaker 3: They're gonna go downtown. That's what it's called around here.

1406
01:07:50,680 --> 01:07:54,439
Speaker 6: Go downtown and they're gonna quadruple their salary and move

1407
01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:55,000
Speaker 6: to the suburb.

1408
01:07:56,400 --> 01:07:57,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know that.

1409
01:07:57,400 --> 01:07:59,760
Speaker 5: You know, Look, there's good lobbyists and bad lobbyists and

1410
01:07:59,760 --> 01:08:02,720
Speaker 5: scessful ones and unsuccessful ones. It's it's not like, you know,

1411
01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:05,040
Speaker 5: like you just leave Capitol Hill if you're a staffer

1412
01:08:05,080 --> 01:08:07,640
Speaker 5: and you do really well in the lobbying sector. It's

1413
01:08:07,720 --> 01:08:09,440
Speaker 5: it's a different way to make a living. You know,

1414
01:08:09,520 --> 01:08:12,800
Speaker 5: not everyone's good at it. So I feel like that's

1415
01:08:12,800 --> 01:08:15,560
Speaker 5: a bit of a generalization, but I do think that

1416
01:08:16,200 --> 01:08:21,000
Speaker 5: diversity when it comes to class is a tremendous problem

1417
01:08:21,040 --> 01:08:23,679
Speaker 5: in this country. Yeah, you know, when I moved here,

1418
01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:26,040
Speaker 5: I was twenty two years old, probably had a little

1419
01:08:26,360 --> 01:08:29,240
Speaker 5: backstop with my parents if I you know, didn't have

1420
01:08:29,280 --> 01:08:32,479
Speaker 5: a job right away and knew that I could have

1421
01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:34,840
Speaker 5: my rent paid if for some reason I couldn't do

1422
01:08:34,920 --> 01:08:35,479
Speaker 5: it on my own.

1423
01:08:35,600 --> 01:08:38,640
Speaker 3: No college debt, no college debt, and not much to

1424
01:08:38,680 --> 01:08:39,120
Speaker 3: speak of.

1425
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:42,960
Speaker 5: And you know a lot of kids just like me

1426
01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:48,160
Speaker 5: show up here, and there's kids that don't look like

1427
01:08:48,320 --> 01:08:53,680
Speaker 5: us that wind up in Washington and struggle with you know,

1428
01:08:54,040 --> 01:08:57,200
Speaker 5: getting enough dress shirts to wear under a suit, or

1429
01:08:57,760 --> 01:09:00,400
Speaker 5: you know, not really knowing how to hold a fork

1430
01:09:00,400 --> 01:09:03,439
Speaker 5: and knife in a way that you know is socially

1431
01:09:03,479 --> 01:09:10,280
Speaker 5: acceptable at a cocktail party, and the city not lobbying

1432
01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:13,440
Speaker 5: the city, you know, makes them feel unwelcome.

1433
01:09:14,160 --> 01:09:15,599
Speaker 3: And then you.

1434
01:09:15,560 --> 01:09:19,160
Speaker 5: Know, we lack the diversity of very rural, kind of

1435
01:09:19,200 --> 01:09:22,559
Speaker 5: poor you know, kids that tried to come to Washington

1436
01:09:22,640 --> 01:09:26,360
Speaker 5: because they just gave up on it, Black and Hispanic

1437
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:30,640
Speaker 5: kids that come from situations where they can't have a

1438
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:34,400
Speaker 5: backstop on rent and they kind of cycle out and

1439
01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:37,479
Speaker 5: Washington looks exactly like us, and it's just like.

1440
01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:38,760
Speaker 3: Here we all are.

1441
01:09:39,080 --> 01:09:42,200
Speaker 5: And you know, I'm proud of how I made it

1442
01:09:42,200 --> 01:09:44,160
Speaker 5: in this city. You know, I think I did it

1443
01:09:44,160 --> 01:09:48,200
Speaker 5: by my bootstraps, but you know, stepped over a bunch.

1444
01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:49,840
Speaker 3: Of kids that gave up too soon.

1445
01:09:50,360 --> 01:09:54,320
Speaker 5: And it's a lack of perspective, a lack of diversity

1446
01:09:55,080 --> 01:09:57,479
Speaker 5: that you know. Now we're all in our forties and

1447
01:09:57,520 --> 01:10:01,920
Speaker 5: fifties and it's our turn and and there's nothing to see,

1448
01:10:02,200 --> 01:10:05,840
Speaker 5: like just like, you know, we've all convinced ourselves that,

1449
01:10:05,920 --> 01:10:08,160
Speaker 5: you know, we got here and everyone else can too.

1450
01:10:08,240 --> 01:10:12,280
Speaker 5: And I'm not sure that's right. And it's it's not

1451
01:10:12,520 --> 01:10:15,000
Speaker 5: it's not just a race thing. It's a class thing.

1452
01:10:15,280 --> 01:10:17,400
Speaker 5: It's class and I.

1453
01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:21,200
Speaker 3: Think we need to do better. Well said, before I

1454
01:10:21,280 --> 01:10:21,680
Speaker 3: let you go.

1455
01:10:22,439 --> 01:10:25,400
Speaker 6: We're talking about form members of Congress who move on.

1456
01:10:25,400 --> 01:10:28,200
Speaker 6: One of the most successful is your boss John Bayner,

1457
01:10:28,479 --> 01:10:31,639
Speaker 6: maybe the most successful, and he took a completely different path.

1458
01:10:32,080 --> 01:10:33,880
Speaker 3: She's like, I'm just going to work with the weed people.

1459
01:10:33,920 --> 01:10:36,080
Speaker 8: He blazed a trail, blazed the trail.

1460
01:10:36,160 --> 01:10:37,320
Speaker 3: Absolutely genius move.

1461
01:10:38,439 --> 01:10:42,440
Speaker 6: But you have a fun story about his his transition from.

1462
01:10:44,360 --> 01:10:46,240
Speaker 3: Having an entire kind.

1463
01:10:46,080 --> 01:10:48,599
Speaker 6: Of suite of assistance as the Speaker of the House

1464
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:51,320
Speaker 6: too not becoming that can you allow to tell me?

1465
01:10:51,360 --> 01:10:54,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, he never confirmed this to me, so it's hearsay,

1466
01:10:54,640 --> 01:10:58,920
Speaker 5: but I have pretty good So he was the Speaker

1467
01:10:58,960 --> 01:11:01,880
Speaker 5: of the House and after he stepped down from from

1468
01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:06,799
Speaker 5: the role. Uh, he lost his secret service detail fairly

1469
01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:14,599
Speaker 5: quickly after he stepped down, and he was learning about Uber.

1470
01:11:14,960 --> 01:11:17,360
Speaker 5: Didn't didn't quite know exactly what it was. He had

1471
01:11:17,360 --> 01:11:21,479
Speaker 5: secret service taking him everywhere for four years. So a

1472
01:11:21,560 --> 01:11:25,760
Speaker 5: friend puts Uber on his former another former member I think,

1473
01:11:25,840 --> 01:11:28,599
Speaker 5: put put Uber on his phone in the app and

1474
01:11:29,760 --> 01:11:31,080
Speaker 5: he does his first Uber.

1475
01:11:31,120 --> 01:11:32,519
Speaker 3: He's proud of himself that you know.

1476
01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:35,439
Speaker 5: The Uber comes and there's a young woman in the

1477
01:11:35,479 --> 01:11:38,760
Speaker 5: back seat and he's doesn't confused, why are you here?

1478
01:11:38,880 --> 01:11:41,800
Speaker 8: And oh it was when you were it was uberpool.

1479
01:11:42,479 --> 01:11:44,599
Speaker 5: And then then the uber picked someone else up, and

1480
01:11:45,000 --> 01:11:46,840
Speaker 5: you know, Bayner's like, no, we're going that way.

1481
01:11:47,000 --> 01:11:50,280
Speaker 3: It's like, well, going to pick up Johnny or whatever

1482
01:11:50,320 --> 01:11:50,800
Speaker 3: over here.

1483
01:11:51,360 --> 01:11:53,559
Speaker 5: So, you know, Bayner's riding in the back of a

1484
01:11:53,880 --> 01:11:58,400
Speaker 5: you know, Toyota Corolla or something with two millennials and

1485
01:11:58,760 --> 01:11:59,719
Speaker 5: they're like, you look.

1486
01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:02,760
Speaker 3: Like John Banner. Yess I am.

1487
01:12:02,920 --> 01:12:04,559
Speaker 8: I hope that welled, but.

1488
01:12:04,680 --> 01:12:06,479
Speaker 3: Probably wanting to smoke. I don't know if it did.

1489
01:12:07,040 --> 01:12:10,479
Speaker 3: And uh so he's complaining, you know what.

1490
01:12:12,240 --> 01:12:14,320
Speaker 5: I'm running around with, you know, twenty three year old

1491
01:12:14,400 --> 01:12:16,639
Speaker 5: kids in an uber what's going on? And they quickly

1492
01:12:16,640 --> 01:12:21,120
Speaker 5: figured out it was the toggle button was selected to uberpool.

1493
01:12:21,280 --> 01:12:23,080
Speaker 5: So I think he took two or three rides with

1494
01:12:23,160 --> 01:12:25,080
Speaker 5: uberpool before he figured it out.

1495
01:12:25,160 --> 01:12:27,000
Speaker 6: They kept winding up in Arlington on the way back

1496
01:12:27,040 --> 01:12:29,760
Speaker 6: to Capital America.

1497
01:12:30,280 --> 01:12:32,519
Speaker 7: Any final thoughts, just when you guys have both been

1498
01:12:32,560 --> 01:12:34,639
Speaker 7: very generous with your time, but anything we haven't mentioned

1499
01:12:34,720 --> 01:12:36,880
Speaker 7: you think might be helpful for you know, I.

1500
01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:40,679
Speaker 3: Just feel like this period we're living in is fascinating.

1501
01:12:40,760 --> 01:12:43,080
Speaker 4: You know, when my brother first started writing this book

1502
01:12:43,080 --> 01:12:45,120
Speaker 4: in twenty seventeen is about the rise of corporate power,

1503
01:12:45,640 --> 01:12:48,040
Speaker 4: and uh, when you're wrapping it up.

1504
01:12:48,160 --> 01:12:49,920
Speaker 3: Last year we realized.

1505
01:12:49,479 --> 01:12:51,720
Speaker 4: Oh crap, like this air of corporate power may be

1506
01:12:51,720 --> 01:12:53,320
Speaker 4: coming to an end, and this area that we're moving

1507
01:12:53,320 --> 01:12:57,439
Speaker 4: into now, with both Republicans and Democrats going after big business,

1508
01:12:57,520 --> 01:13:02,120
Speaker 4: going after corporations is just fascinating. A normal world corporations

1509
01:13:02,160 --> 01:13:05,480
Speaker 4: and corporate lobbyists like Sam would see here and say like, oh,

1510
01:13:05,600 --> 01:13:07,240
Speaker 4: all we need to do is elect a Republican president.

1511
01:13:07,240 --> 01:13:09,519
Speaker 4: Everything go back to normal. But if Donald Trump wins,

1512
01:13:09,560 --> 01:13:12,479
Speaker 4: it's still the world. This world's still upside down. So

1513
01:13:12,920 --> 01:13:15,200
Speaker 4: it's just a fascinating time to be around.

1514
01:13:15,040 --> 01:13:20,000
Speaker 3: Them and follow this. People are pissed. Oh yeah, Well.

1515
01:13:20,160 --> 01:13:21,920
Speaker 7: The book is called The Wolves of k Street. This

1516
01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:24,280
Speaker 7: is Ryan's copy. You can't see the cover because he

1517
01:13:24,320 --> 01:13:28,320
Speaker 7: took it in a lazy river. That's exactly what happened.

1518
01:13:28,479 --> 01:13:30,599
Speaker 7: If you're wondering why he has a new computer, he

1519
01:13:30,680 --> 01:13:33,719
Speaker 7: left it in the rain. All kinds of like water

1520
01:13:34,160 --> 01:13:37,840
Speaker 7: based crises in your life recently, Ryan, But you've both

1521
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:40,160
Speaker 7: have been so dents as your time and so candid.

1522
01:13:40,240 --> 01:13:42,200
Speaker 8: We really appreciate you stopping by the show.

1523
01:13:42,640 --> 01:13:42,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1524
01:13:43,000 --> 01:13:46,040
Speaker 6: Thanks, excellent book. Can't can't recommend it enough. The Wolves

1525
01:13:46,520 --> 01:13:47,160
Speaker 6: of k Street.

1526
01:13:47,240 --> 01:13:51,800
Speaker 7: Thank you, all right, Ryan, I thought that was a

1527
01:13:51,840 --> 01:13:55,800
Speaker 7: lot of fun and super interesting and also importantly not

1528
01:13:55,880 --> 01:13:58,840
Speaker 7: the type of conversation that you hear outside independent media

1529
01:13:58,880 --> 01:14:01,640
Speaker 7: and maybe even outside the show, because it's one of

1530
01:14:01,680 --> 01:14:04,920
Speaker 7: those relationships. We're talking about media a lot. It's one

1531
01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:07,080
Speaker 7: of those relationships that a lot of outlets are not

1532
01:14:07,240 --> 01:14:10,519
Speaker 7: willing to burn. It's not something it condemns them. In

1533
01:14:10,560 --> 01:14:13,080
Speaker 7: many cases, they're not willing to dive too deeply into it.

1534
01:14:13,360 --> 01:14:16,000
Speaker 7: So I thought it was really fascinating, not the type

1535
01:14:16,040 --> 01:14:16,960
Speaker 7: of thing you see every day.

1536
01:14:17,240 --> 01:14:20,760
Speaker 6: Yeah, I hope people like it because it's hard for

1537
01:14:20,760 --> 01:14:22,559
Speaker 6: me to tell because since I've been immersed in this

1538
01:14:22,640 --> 01:14:25,559
Speaker 6: for twenty years or something like, it's sort of like

1539
01:14:25,600 --> 01:14:31,120
Speaker 6: water and the corruption just washes around you. But I

1540
01:14:31,120 --> 01:14:35,000
Speaker 6: think it's important for people to understand, like how how

1541
01:14:35,040 --> 01:14:37,360
Speaker 6: the system is structured now, because if you want to

1542
01:14:37,479 --> 01:14:39,320
Speaker 6: change it, you got to understand what it's like now.

1543
01:14:39,720 --> 01:14:42,920
Speaker 6: The corporate money and big money is so good at

1544
01:14:42,960 --> 01:14:46,280
Speaker 6: adapting and finding new ways of you know, pushing its

1545
01:14:46,320 --> 01:14:50,120
Speaker 6: message that it's something you have to constantly beyond guard.

1546
01:14:50,200 --> 01:14:52,000
Speaker 6: For like with the example of how now you got

1547
01:14:52,040 --> 01:14:55,960
Speaker 6: Josh Holly, I was pushing legislation like a Democrat with

1548
01:14:56,000 --> 01:14:59,599
Speaker 6: a Democrat Elizabeth Warren. Meanwhile, the system is saying like, actually,

1549
01:14:59,640 --> 01:15:03,479
Speaker 6: we don't We're not going to give individual senators input anymore, Right,

1550
01:15:03,720 --> 01:15:06,280
Speaker 6: how who cares on how we legislate?

1551
01:15:06,439 --> 01:15:08,840
Speaker 7: Right, We'll just you know, do an executive action or

1552
01:15:08,960 --> 01:15:10,840
Speaker 7: an administrative agency. And this is one of the things

1553
01:15:10,880 --> 01:15:13,759
Speaker 7: that I find interesting. Chevron is quite literally on the docket.

1554
01:15:14,000 --> 01:15:16,479
Speaker 7: In the next couple of weeks, we're going to hear

1555
01:15:16,479 --> 01:15:18,759
Speaker 7: a decision in the Chevron case before the Supreme Court,

1556
01:15:19,120 --> 01:15:21,840
Speaker 7: and you and I should debate sometime the merits of

1557
01:15:21,920 --> 01:15:24,000
Speaker 7: doing something like that, which would cut down in these

1558
01:15:24,040 --> 01:15:29,400
Speaker 7: administrative agency's ability to make decisions in a legislative vacuum

1559
01:15:29,400 --> 01:15:33,040
Speaker 7: where Congress hasn't made a decision. This case is involving

1560
01:15:33,080 --> 01:15:35,800
Speaker 7: some fishermen in Maine, Massachusetts, one of the two.

1561
01:15:36,840 --> 01:15:37,200
Speaker 8: I don't know.

1562
01:15:37,240 --> 01:15:40,000
Speaker 7: I mean, I think because of the way these cabinet

1563
01:15:40,040 --> 01:15:44,719
Speaker 7: agencies have grown, there's a real problem just in that gap.

1564
01:15:44,800 --> 01:15:47,679
Speaker 7: When you look at how broken and gridlocked Congress is too,

1565
01:15:47,760 --> 01:15:49,200
Speaker 7: there's a lot that needs to be fixed.

1566
01:15:49,400 --> 01:15:51,679
Speaker 6: This goes back to what we were talking about last week,

1567
01:15:51,880 --> 01:15:55,599
Speaker 6: where there was this study in the Annual Study that

1568
01:15:55,680 --> 01:15:59,880
Speaker 6: asked people, do you basically do you live in a democracy?

1569
01:16:00,560 --> 01:16:03,400
Speaker 3: And the top ten in the top ten.

1570
01:16:03,240 --> 01:16:06,320
Speaker 6: Of people countries where there were the people in those

1571
01:16:06,360 --> 01:16:07,960
Speaker 6: countries said they live in a democracy.

1572
01:16:08,080 --> 01:16:10,400
Speaker 3: You could not find the United States. Yeah, you found

1573
01:16:10,439 --> 01:16:11,360
Speaker 3: China in that list.

1574
01:16:12,680 --> 01:16:15,080
Speaker 6: So people need to ask themselves what's going on that

1575
01:16:16,000 --> 01:16:19,320
Speaker 6: people here in the United States are less likely to

1576
01:16:19,320 --> 01:16:23,000
Speaker 6: say that they live in a democratic country than people

1577
01:16:23,040 --> 01:16:26,479
Speaker 6: in China. All we want when we're complaining about lobbying,

1578
01:16:26,520 --> 01:16:29,479
Speaker 6: I think what we really want is the ability of

1579
01:16:30,240 --> 01:16:35,760
Speaker 6: people collectively to determine how they are governed, to be

1580
01:16:35,840 --> 01:16:40,920
Speaker 6: represented self government, right you want representative self government, And

1581
01:16:41,400 --> 01:16:45,920
Speaker 6: the sense among most people is that we do not

1582
01:16:45,960 --> 01:16:47,120
Speaker 6: have self government right now.

1583
01:16:48,400 --> 01:16:49,680
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean absolutely.

1584
01:16:50,280 --> 01:16:54,720
Speaker 7: And Washington is really uncomfortable with quote representative people, even

1585
01:16:54,720 --> 01:16:57,280
Speaker 7: if they're members of the House of Representatives. And that

1586
01:16:57,320 --> 01:17:00,720
Speaker 7: applies to Alexandrocasia quartets, and it applies to mac Gates.

1587
01:17:01,120 --> 01:17:04,479
Speaker 6: It's just across could represent the Panhandle better than that

1588
01:17:04,680 --> 01:17:07,320
Speaker 6: Gates exactly exact.

1589
01:17:08,880 --> 01:17:11,880
Speaker 7: And for people on the right who find Brooklyn Bartenders

1590
01:17:11,920 --> 01:17:15,680
Speaker 7: to be vapid and out of touch, there's a representative

1591
01:17:16,000 --> 01:17:18,559
Speaker 7: from that district and you should take it up her.

1592
01:17:18,439 --> 01:17:19,400
Speaker 3: Bar was in Manhattan.

1593
01:17:20,880 --> 01:17:24,000
Speaker 6: I didn't, but like so many of the bartenders in Manhattan,

1594
01:17:24,040 --> 01:17:25,599
Speaker 6: she doesn't didn't live in Manhattan.

1595
01:17:25,720 --> 01:17:26,920
Speaker 3: Right up in the Bronx.

1596
01:17:27,000 --> 01:17:28,519
Speaker 8: There you go, Oh, that's right, the Bronx.

1597
01:17:28,840 --> 01:17:31,880
Speaker 7: But anyway, the point remains that Washington is very uncomfortable

1598
01:17:31,880 --> 01:17:35,840
Speaker 7: with people who actually represent the American people if they

1599
01:17:35,880 --> 01:17:38,599
Speaker 7: don't happen to be from like a wealthy suburban district

1600
01:17:38,760 --> 01:17:40,200
Speaker 7: or a blue coastal city.

1601
01:17:40,360 --> 01:17:42,080
Speaker 8: That gets really uncomfortable right.

1602
01:17:42,000 --> 01:17:45,479
Speaker 7: Away, and not in the way some lobbyists like to say,

1603
01:17:45,520 --> 01:17:48,400
Speaker 7: which is we just need compromise. Well, that compromise is

1604
01:17:48,560 --> 01:17:51,719
Speaker 7: just oil for it's just grease in your skins, basically.

1605
01:17:52,200 --> 01:17:55,639
Speaker 6: And there's kind of different kinds of corrupt lobbyists. There's

1606
01:17:55,840 --> 01:18:00,559
Speaker 6: some that are just massively distorting the state system, like

1607
01:18:01,120 --> 01:18:04,559
Speaker 6: strip mining the wealth from around the world and from

1608
01:18:04,600 --> 01:18:07,000
Speaker 6: the American people and sending it to their clients and

1609
01:18:07,000 --> 01:18:08,800
Speaker 6: taking a piece along the way. That to me is

1610
01:18:08,800 --> 01:18:12,960
Speaker 6: the most destructive kind. The others are like just cabbes

1611
01:18:13,000 --> 01:18:16,760
Speaker 6: and Cairo. You have you ever been to Cairo, So,

1612
01:18:16,880 --> 01:18:20,320
Speaker 6: for instance, you get off at the airport, it's Cairo's

1613
01:18:20,320 --> 01:18:21,080
Speaker 6: super confusing.

1614
01:18:21,400 --> 01:18:23,559
Speaker 3: One of the most confusing places you can ever imagine.

1615
01:18:23,600 --> 01:18:25,920
Speaker 6: And so you're going to have all of these taxi

1616
01:18:25,960 --> 01:18:30,400
Speaker 6: cab drivers who are just there to kind of exploit

1617
01:18:30,439 --> 01:18:36,200
Speaker 6: the confusion and just make a whole bunch of extra

1618
01:18:36,280 --> 01:18:39,080
Speaker 6: money off of tourists. So it's like people just kind

1619
01:18:39,080 --> 01:18:43,200
Speaker 6: of fleecing tourists and the corporations, and that analogy. Are

1620
01:18:43,240 --> 01:18:45,240
Speaker 6: the tourists here in Washington were getting fleeced by the

1621
01:18:45,280 --> 01:18:47,120
Speaker 6: lobbist that I care less about to.

1622
01:18:47,080 --> 01:18:49,040
Speaker 8: Fight each other by the way, I mean, it's like.

1623
01:18:49,000 --> 01:18:51,439
Speaker 6: Please fleece the corporations. That's that's kind of finely. I

1624
01:18:51,439 --> 01:18:55,120
Speaker 6: got to drive a cab one of the it was

1625
01:18:55,160 --> 01:18:55,639
Speaker 6: pretty crazy.

1626
01:18:55,680 --> 01:18:56,760
Speaker 8: Were you on the other side of the car?

1627
01:18:57,360 --> 01:18:59,040
Speaker 3: I know, he let me get in the driver's seat.

1628
01:18:59,280 --> 01:19:01,080
Speaker 8: But I mean was the I received in Egypt on

1629
01:19:01,080 --> 01:19:01,320
Speaker 8: the end?

1630
01:19:01,400 --> 01:19:01,880
Speaker 3: That was normal?

1631
01:19:01,920 --> 01:19:05,200
Speaker 7: It's like American okay, yeah, interesting. I was thinking of

1632
01:19:05,960 --> 01:19:09,360
Speaker 7: the British Empire. It's crazy cars and all that good stuff.

1633
01:19:09,400 --> 01:19:13,559
Speaker 6: Now they stuck with the the I mean the right way. Yes,

1634
01:19:13,960 --> 01:19:16,200
Speaker 6: it's crazy. If she get rid of the metric system,

1635
01:19:17,520 --> 01:19:19,040
Speaker 6: seemed to be very few traffic laws.

1636
01:19:20,960 --> 01:19:25,559
Speaker 7: We have now devolved into the conversation about Egyptian traffic laws.

1637
01:19:26,720 --> 01:19:28,240
Speaker 8: That usually means that we've gone.

1638
01:19:28,040 --> 01:19:31,880
Speaker 7: On too long, but anyway, we hope everybody enjoyed that conversation.

1639
01:19:32,360 --> 01:19:35,439
Speaker 7: Just as a reminder, if you're having any issues with

1640
01:19:35,520 --> 01:19:37,880
Speaker 7: the links, they're going to YouTube and Spotify is and

1641
01:19:37,960 --> 01:19:38,599
Speaker 7: to be in the email.

1642
01:19:38,640 --> 01:19:40,000
Speaker 8: It's going to be in the episode description.

1643
01:19:40,040 --> 01:19:42,920
Speaker 7: If you're having any problems, support at locals dot com,

1644
01:19:43,160 --> 01:19:46,559
Speaker 7: copy Breaking Points premium at gmail dot com. That will

1645
01:19:46,600 --> 01:19:49,519
Speaker 7: fly producer Griffin, who is here to help so that

1646
01:19:49,560 --> 01:19:53,360
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01:19:53,479 --> 01:19:56,720
Speaker 7: full show early and they get you all of counterpoints

1648
01:19:56,720 --> 01:20:00,240
Speaker 7: on Wednesdays early to your inbox with no breaks, or

1649
01:20:00,640 --> 01:20:03,639
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1650
01:20:03,720 --> 01:20:06,240
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1651
01:20:06,320 --> 01:20:08,720
Speaker 7: appreciate you all so much. If you can't support it,

1652
01:20:08,720 --> 01:20:10,880
Speaker 7: it helps more conversations like this happen.

1653
01:20:11,000 --> 01:20:12,920
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1654
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1655
01:20:14,800 --> 01:20:15,679
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1656
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1658
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1659
01:20:22,120 --> 01:20:23,160
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1660
01:20:23,200 --> 01:20:25,920
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1661
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