WEBVTT - Introducing - Undisclosed: TJ Weekly - Jason Flom 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:26.320 Hi, and welcome back to Undisclosed Toward Justice, our weekly episode. 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:28.800 I'm here as always with my colleague and Pill host 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:30.320 Colin Miller. Hey, Colin, how are you doing? 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:31.760 Doing great? How about yourself? 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:34.519 I'm well, I'm well. I am very excited that we 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.200 have a very special guest on this week, who I 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:39.360 think is the Is it the first time? Maybe he's 0:00:39.440 --> 0:00:43.080 joining us, Colin, I believe so, okay, and it's a 0:00:43.120 --> 0:00:46.800 big get. It's a big get for us. We're welcoming 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:49.159 on our show this week. Jason Flohm. 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:52.800 Hi, Jason, Hi, Ravia, Hi Colin. How you doing. Oh, 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:54.440 we already know, because you already asked you you're still 0:00:54.480 --> 0:00:56.680 doing good five seconds ago. You're doing good. You're probably 0:00:56.680 --> 0:00:57.320 still doing good. 0:00:57.600 --> 0:00:59.560 Might have changed the mood in a few seconds there. 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:03.000 Yeah, yeah, no, no, Hey, we are so excited to 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:04.840 have you on. We know you have a super busy schedule. 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:11.000 Anybody who is familiar with criminal justice, media advocacy, innocence work, 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:14.720 I mean, Jason, you are a very well known entity 0:01:14.920 --> 0:01:19.160 in this space, but your career mostly was in the 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:21.840 music industry as an executive. I mean, you were the 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:25.240 founder of Lava Records, but also the chairman of Atlantic Records, 0:01:25.280 --> 0:01:28.840 Version Records, Capital Music Group. Then you started Lava for 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:31.480 Good and Lava for Good for folks who know I 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:34.560 mean like the brand. Wrongful Conviction is your brand. You 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:36.679 know you're wearing the T shirt, but that's as a 0:01:36.720 --> 0:01:39.319 powerful brand and you've been doing it for years and 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:42.240 under the Lava for Good label, you have produced so 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:47.960 many shows around justice and law and I am fascinated 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:49.640 with your story and our listeners don't know it, but 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:52.720 I want to know how you went from being, you know, 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:57.040 a music producer executive to this work, which is not 0:01:57.240 --> 0:01:59.640 even close to being as glamorous as what you have done. 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:04.360 You're lying, it's kind of the opposite. I guess. Oh, 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:06.800 it's funny. Robber, you know many years ago it must 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:09.360 have been. It was before COVID, so I don't know 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:12.040 six years ago or so. I remember there was a 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:15.160 week when I went down to death Row in Texas 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:17.920 on a Monday to visit Rob Will. It was the 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:20.880 first time I visited him. We featured him on the 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:24.200 Wrongful Conviction podcast and there's been a lot of media 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:26.960 around his case. It's an outrageous case and he's an 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:30.560 incredible person. So Anyway, I went down there and visited 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:32.000 him on death Row, and then I flew to LA 0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:34.960 because it was Grammy Week, so I was out there 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:38.200 for all the festivities and all the different fancy parties 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:40.640 and whatnot they have there, and I ended up at 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:42.400 the Grammys. I went with my son that year, and 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:44.600 I taught my sign I would get seats that would 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:47.240 be very good seats in the sort of tenth throw 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:51.400 or whatever it was, right. But then what I showed 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:54.119 him I shouldn't admit this on the ear, is that 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:56.240 when during the commercial breaks, you could just get up 0:02:56.280 --> 0:02:58.280 and go to whatever seat you want because most of 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:01.240 the people sitting in those seats are seats, right. So 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:02.720 you go to someone who looks like they have a 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:06.600 suit that they bought at a very inexpensive outlet, let's 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:09.200 just say, and you go, excuse me, you're in my seat, 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:12.040 and they invariably get up and leave, and next thing 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:14.000 you know, we end up sitting in the front row 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:15.720 next to pal McCartney. Where the hell it is? Right? 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:16.480 And so. 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:21.120 I'm going to file that information away just in case 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:22.320 it comes in handy one day. 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:24.720 Yeah, they changed the thing now now they made tables, 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:27.000 so the stars all sit at the tables with drinks 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:29.520 and stuff, and it's a better setup for them. But 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:31.560 back then you could do this and obvious seem to 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:33.280 be the only one that was doing it. But I 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:35.520 had this revelation at that moment. I was like, Wow, 0:03:35.560 --> 0:03:37.520 what a week because this was Sunday night, right, So 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:39.520 I was like death row to the front row, like 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:43.120 literally like one week. So yeah, and that's sort of 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:47.040 a very sort of perfect example of the crazy dichotomy 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:50.320 of my life. But I got into this, Robbie because 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:53.600 when I was thirty two years old, I was getting 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:55.520 in a taxi and there was a newstand and I 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:58.160 wanted something to read because back then there was no 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:00.800 like messing around on your phone and doing you know, 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:04.640 wordal or Instagram or whatever we do, and so I 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:07.440 wanted the Times. It was sold out and I picked 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:09.280 up the post, which is not something I had ever 0:04:09.360 --> 0:04:12.920 done before or never or since or never will do again, 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:15.960 but it was what was available, and I wanted something 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:18.200 to read, and I was obviously meant to read it 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:20.320 because it was a story that caught my eye about 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:22.280 a kid named Stephen Lennon who was serving fifteen to 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:25.440 life for a non violent first defense, cocaine possession charge, 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:27.760 and a maxim security prison in New York State. The 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:29.680 reason it was in the paper was because his mother 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:32.800 surely had been trying to get clemency from Governor Mario 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:37.719 Cuomo and had been turned down, even though the warden 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:39.960 had written a letter of support the sentence of judge 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:41.919 and even Geraldine Ferraro with those of you who are 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:43.560 old enough to remember or remember it was the first 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:45.640 woman to ever get a nomination to be vice president 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:47.840 from one of the major political parties of the United States. 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:51.080 So this was a headline and so I caught my 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:53.120 attention because it had drugs in prison and at both 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:57.320 things of which I was fascinated by. Still am but 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:00.200 my drug days are forty years behind me. But but 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:02.080 he was thirty two, I was thirty two. He had 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:04.240 been in prison for eight years. I had been sober 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:05.880 for almost eight years at that point in time, and 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:08.600 I was like, this definitely could have been me. So 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:11.719 I decided to see if I could do something about it. 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:15.480 Knowing absolutely nothing about anything about drug laws or what 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:18.600 any of this stuff, it just struck me as so outrageous. 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:23.839 Fifteen of life, nonviolent first offense, cocaine possession charge. I'm like, 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:29.400 so I got the only Crembel defense latter I knew 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:30.800 at the time was a guy in Bob Kalina. He 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:33.159 represented Stone Table Palace at Schedule, both of whom I 0:05:33.200 --> 0:05:35.679 had signed, both of whom were getting arrested like weekly 0:05:35.720 --> 0:05:38.960 in those days. So I was like, Bob, can you help? 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:40.880 He goes, no, there's nothing you can do. I said, 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:42.320 do me a favor, because by now I had called 0:05:42.360 --> 0:05:44.400 the kid's mother on the phone. Katie was the same 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:46.400 age as I was. I had called Shirley on the 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:49.120 phone and spoken to her. He agreed to take the 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:51.320 case pro bono as a favorite to me. He said, 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:54.080 I won't win, but I'll try, and I go great. 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:57.080 So six months later we end up in a courtroom 0:05:57.080 --> 0:06:00.279 in Malone, New York, up by the Canadian border. Still 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:02.600 had a mullet and purple Doc Martins, this is how 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:07.640 long ago this was. And the judge is this old 0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:10.240 guy with white hair. This is not going to go 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:12.719 all I'm saying to myself, and he looked like Ted 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:15.640 Forsythe and the arguments go back and forth, back and forth. 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:18.080 I have no idea what I don't I just known 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:21.000 Shirley Lennon's mom is squeezing my hand so tired, I'm 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:23.880 cutting off circulation and she's kind off the circulation. And 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:27.359 then the judge bangs that cavel down and says the 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:30.440 motion is granted. And I was like, huh wow. And 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:32.800 then Bob comes scurrying over in his three piece suit, 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:34.480 and know, he's kind of overweight, and you know, so 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:37.760 picture picture what your picture you're picturing him? And anyway, 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:41.320 and so he comes sort of bustling over and I 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:43.200 was like, Bob, what happened? And he goes, we won. 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:46.640 I was like we what? And he goes, we won, 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:48.599 and I was like, that's incredible, you know, and they 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:51.159 sent the kid home and I was like, Okay, now 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:52.599 I know what to do with the rest of my life. 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:54.560 And that's how it happened. I've never stopped. 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:57.760 Had you at that point had any interaction yourself with 0:06:57.760 --> 0:06:59.560 the criminal legal system. 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:04.000 Almost, I mean, it's long enough ago statue limitations. You're 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:07.400 a lawyer, Yeah, I think we're I had been. 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:09.760 Where's the body buried? 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:12.200 Then I'd had cops pointing guns at me when I 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:15.800 was doing something I really shouldn't have been doing. And 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:19.960 for some reason, probably the color of my skin, the 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:23.760 zip code I lived in. They didn't search all four 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:27.240 of us. They searched me into other guys and not 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:30.320 the other guy who were on the street. And the 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:33.080 last guy was the guy they should have searched, and 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:35.720 had they, I would have ended up in jail for sure. 0:07:36.560 --> 0:07:40.280 And so you know, I came close and there was 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:42.320 no excuse for it. I shouldn't have been putting myself 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:44.520 in those type of positions, but I did. And look, 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:47.000 let's face it too, like I got into, you know, 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:50.720 substance abuse issues, and you know when you get into 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:55.200 especially I was, I had some issues with Columbian marching powder, 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:58.440 let's call it. And so you know, when you do that, though, 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:01.320 invariably you can be you wrapped up in the system 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:04.760 because when kids, and I was a kid, go and 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:06.840 they all are doing it, and then they're like, somebody 0:08:06.880 --> 0:08:09.000 go get it, and we'll get a volume discount, right, 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:11.040 and we'll I'll split it up. Now all of a sudden, 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:11.840 they can get you. 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:14.560 For distribution, right. Yeah. 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:16.760 And so I was in the wrong place at the 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:20.640 wrong time so many times. And that's why I say 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:21.240 it could have been me. 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:33.600 This summer, I foresee a lot of financial juggling. I've 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:35.840 got a grand baby on the way. 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That's fifty 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:56.040 percent off your first year at Monarch dot com with 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:57.439 code undisclosed. 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:15.320 You've discussed including just now your music world and the 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:19.040 Wrongful Conviction World coinciding and coming together, and I wonder 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:23.480 recently on the podcasts, I discussed how over the past 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:26.720 decade or so, there's been a rash of cases in 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:31.319 which prosecutors have presented lyrics, typically rap lyrics that were 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:35.080 authored by defendants to prove this is a drug kingpin, 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:39.120 they're committing these violent crimes, etc. And now a few states, 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:42.520 most recently Maryland, have passed laws. Maryland's laws called the 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:47.800 PACE Act Protecting Artists Creative Expression Act, banning the use 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:50.599 of music lyrics against the defendant trial, and so I 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:53.240 wonder you know, Jason, in your backgrounds in music and 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:57.720 your innocence work, what is your thought about these prosecutors 0:10:57.800 --> 0:11:01.560 using lyrics authored by I defend into try on this 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:03.880 trend of states now banning it. 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:07.800 Well, it's really interesting timing for us to be having 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:12.560 this conversation because last week Texas executed James Broadnax, who 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:16.760 I believe everybody knew that was involved, was innocent of 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:19.800 the crime he was convicted of. And I say that 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:22.160 because he was convicted largely because of lyrics that he 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:25.160 had written when he was a kid, and in his case, 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:31.520 his cousin had confessed to the crime, and the physical 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:35.280 evidence showed that his cousin wasn't lying right, he wasn't 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:38.280 being heroic and taking a fall. He was a guy 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:40.800 that did it and James didn't do it. But because 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:44.360 he had written these lyrics, you know, eons ago, they 0:11:44.520 --> 0:11:47.320 went ahead and executed him with not a care in 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:50.880 the world. So sometimes I think these people are so 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:53.520 sick that they get an extra thrill out of executing 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:56.040 people that they think or maybe or are innocent. I 0:11:56.040 --> 0:11:58.320 don't know. I mean, it's so sinister. I can't even 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:02.000 figure it out. But to your question, I think it's 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:05.840 high time that we, you know, got to a place 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:12.040 of sanity where lyrics are disconnected from anything to do 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:15.440 in the criminal legal system. They aren't evidence of anything 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:19.679 except maybe creativity or the lack thereof, right. I mean, 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:22.960 there's good lyrics, there's bad lyrics, there's vile that lyrics. 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:25.960 There's every kind of lyrics under the sun. It doesn't 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:29.160 mean a damn thing. That's like saying someone wrote a 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:31.600 novel where there was a murder, and therefore they must 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:33.800 be a murderer, because how else would that thought pop 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:39.000 in their head. It's so ridiculous. Or movies, right, or anything. 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:42.840 And so it's one of these things. In Robbie you 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:45.280 know this well too, Like I mean, we take our 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:49.280 victories where we can get them, and you know, we 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:52.640 hope that Who is it Brian Stevens that said the 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:55.080 arc of the world universe events towards justice? Or is 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:56.800 that Martin Luther King? That's one other King? I think 0:12:56.840 --> 0:13:00.720 so those two have a lot in common. But so yeah, 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:03.080 I think the Maryland thing was a big win. My 0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:06.840 friend Diana Lapolte was involved on that. She's a you know, 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:09.719 phenomenal music business lawyer who else is very involved in 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:12.239 civil rights work. So shout out to Dina. 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:15.640 So Jason you you were involved in innocence work well 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:18.840 before I think this country and most people understood the 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:21.439 concept of innocence and how it operates. And I think 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:23.720 that's like Cereal kind of brought that to the forefront 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:26.760 in the last fifteen years or so. I mean, to 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:29.360 this day, what I've discovered is outside of the US, 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:33.080 you know, innocence still really is not understood as a concept, 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:35.800 even my legal practitioners and advocates. I've spoken to folks 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:38.319 from around the world who have said to me, can 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:41.400 you come and train lawyers and advocates in other countries 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:43.960 on how to do innocence work because we don't we 0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:46.240 don't have it here. But you've been doing this for 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:49.040 a long time. However, after Cereal arrived on the scene, 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:52.000 I wanted to ask you, is that what got you 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:53.080 into the podcast space. 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:59.160 I wasn't an early adopter of Cereal. Strangely enough, Oh okay, 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:01.360 I was well aware of it, and I'd read about it, 0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:03.760 but I didn't. I don't. I think I was late 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:06.120 to the game and listening and probably fifty or one 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:08.120 hundred million people listened to it before I did. It's 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:13.679 incredible what that was literally a cultural touchstone. It almost 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:17.400 sort of not a revolutionary, but almost created the genre. 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:22.200 And so yeah, yeah, I think what year was that, 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:25.880 twenty fourteen? Yeah, right, So then I had had a 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:29.840 couple of different people ask me about doing a podcast, 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:32.240 but you know, I hadn't really picked up on the 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:35.880 queue yet. And then in twenty sixteen, I was in 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:38.400 a meeting with a friend of mine, was being introduced 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:40.640 to this guy and he, you know, he heard me 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:44.080 proselytizing about the Innocence work and everything like I do, 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:46.640 and he said, you know, you should really do a podcast. 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:48.320 And I was like, yeah, you're not the first guy 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:49.840 that said that, and he goes, yeah, but I'm in 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:53.200 the podcast business. I was like, oh, okay, let's get 0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:55.240 to work. So that's how it started. It literally was 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:59.480 as random as that, and so it's been it's been 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:02.760 an incre credible thing. I mean, the Wrongful Conviction podcast 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:07.000 is now five hundred and seventy something episodes in I 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:11.400 don't know, sixty million or so downloads, and it's reached 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:13.720 into the halls of power. I mean, I'm very proud 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:16.520 of the impact that's had on individual cases that we 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:19.800 know about. And obviously it never just takes a podcast. 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:23.480 It takes a village, right, It takes attorneys and other 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:26.320 media and all sorts of stuff to undo one of 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:32.000 these disasters. But it has had a significant enough impact 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:35.440 that in many cases we've had either the person who's 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:37.960 wrong for the convicted who then was freed, or their 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:43.000 legal team cite us as having been an important part 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:46.080 of the effort to free them. And that means the 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:48.720 world to me. I've gotten calls from the courthouse steps. 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:51.480 Sometimes I get facetimes from people right when they walk 0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:54.280 out on their attorney's phones or their their you know, 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:57.840 their sister's phone or whoever. And one of them just 0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:00.680 called me, actually, Freddie Brinkley. But the amazing thing to 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:02.840 me is that it's reached into the halls of power. 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:05.840 You know, I remember, I think you'll get a kick. 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:07.520 And we know that there have been bills written at 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:10.680 least three states, because we know about the three where 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:13.320 the legislators that wrote those bills that were signed to 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:15.760 the law have cited one of our podcasts as the 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:18.080 reason why they were inspired to write these bills that 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:21.359 made the system a little fairer and better, amazingly Indiana 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:24.280 and Washington State. But I'll tell you one funny aside 0:16:24.320 --> 0:16:27.080 is that I was on the phone with the chief 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:31.120 council and a governor's office in a southern state some 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:35.520 time ago. And this is years ago, and she was new, 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:37.280 so I didn't know her. But I was advocating for 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:40.280 a clemency for a couple of people whose cases we 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:43.080 had featured on our show. And I had the attorney 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:45.520 for one of these men on the phone with us, 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:49.280 and we're laying out our whole reasons why they should 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:53.200 get the governor's attention, and she goes, you know, this 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:55.840 reminds me of this podcast I started listening to recently, 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:59.200 you know, because it's pretty good. You know, they do this, 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:01.320 they tell these stories kind of like you guys are 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:03.800 telling me now, Like they lay out the whole case 0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:06.960 and they talked to the wrong and she's like, I 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:08.840 can't remember what it's called. And I'm like, I'm like, 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:11.040 her name was Leslie. I like Leslie Leslie. She's like, no, no, 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:12.879 you got to hear me out, Like I'll call up 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:14.360 with the name of it in a minute. It's pretty good. 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:17.240 You should check it out. And I'm like, well, I 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:19.000 don't know how to tell you this, but that's me. 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:22.600 She's like, amazing, Yeah, that's you. I was like, yeah, okay, 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:24.440 this is a moment I'll remember for a long time. 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:27.520 So and we ended up getting a relief for these guys, 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:30.200 which was great. But yeah, So that's that's the Wrongful 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:32.880 Conviction podcast in a nutshell. And of course I love 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:36.359 the fact that with as many people listening to it 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:42.479 as do, it is a statistical, extreme probability that someone 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:46.040 is sitting in a jury room right now in America, yeah, 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:48.879 maybe even elsewhere in the world and being fed a 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:56.000 bunch of bullshit by prosecutors, quote unquote experts, police people 0:17:56.040 --> 0:17:58.640 who know better. Yeah, and they're not going to fall 0:17:58.680 --> 0:17:59.919 for it. Yeah, because I. 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:03.200 Have long said that that, you know, the subversive mission 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:08.119 of Undisclosed is to tate every jury in America for 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:10.680 the better. So I totally get that. I mean, look, 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:14.640 your work has you know, not just not just made 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:16.560 differences in the halls of power, like you know, with 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:20.959 criminal justice reform with legislation, but you've gotten clemency's pardons, exonerations, 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:24.639 and also so much recognition. I mean, like, you know, 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:27.440 just recognition in the industry itself, which is not easy 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:30.199 to get. I mean, after starting Wrongful Conviction, then you 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:33.760 founded Lava for Good, and Lava for Good produces many 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:36.960 more shows outside of Wrongful Conviction, including ones that people 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:40.040 I know our listeners are familiar with, like Ear Witness 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:44.399 and Bone Valley. I mean, like this just incredibly popular 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:46.520 shows as well, not just impactful. 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:50.240 Yeah, and I'm so glad you mentioned that Bone Valley. 0:18:50.359 --> 0:18:53.600 We're getting ready to release season five, which is called 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:57.960 Bone Valley Devil's Quarry, and it is already getting a 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:00.639 significant amount of fanfars but admitted to right back a 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:05.440 film festival. It's in partnership with Rolling Stone Magazine, which 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:07.240 is very exciting because Rolling Stone has been a big 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:08.879 part of my story for so many years. I think 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:12.560 they've done some of the most important reporting on these 0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:16.639 type of issues for generations now and so, and I 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:19.560 feel like they're still relevant, which is incredible. So, like 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:21.640 I said, they did a story about Rob Will years ago. 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:24.600 I helped to get their attention on that case, but 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:27.120 it was really well done. Maybe did a story about 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:29.600 me once upon Time, which is really well done. Too, 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:34.040 but I was very, very humbled by that exposure. It 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:38.399 was so wonderful. So Devil's Quarry is based on the 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:43.639 article that was written by Paul Solataroff many years ago 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:50.560 about a case in Carmel, New York where this little 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:54.440 girl named Josette Wright was brutally assaulted and strangled and 0:19:55.119 --> 0:19:58.880 murdered ultimately and left in the woods. And I think 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:02.920 she was a who's tannerb that it's horrible, horrible crime. 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:06.640 And two guys ended up promptly convicted in that case, 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:10.800 Anthony DiPippo and Andrew Kreevac. Andrew serve twenty four years, 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:14.399 Anthony served twenty they'd both been exonerated. I think that 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:16.960 everybody knew from the get go that they were innocent, 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:19.120 but it didn't matter. It was a high profile case. 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:26.400 They needed arrests, and somehow or other, the authorities ignored 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:28.639 it's probably too kind of a word, you know, the 0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:32.800 person who would have been the obvious suspect. And so 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:37.600 this is a deep dive into that case that is 0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:42.240 done by Paul, the original writer, who is so brilliant, 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:46.760 and I think it's going to really shake people up 0:20:46.840 --> 0:20:49.919 because it's a different side of things right, because I 0:20:50.000 --> 0:20:52.320 talk and I know Robbie, you and I have talked 0:20:52.359 --> 0:20:56.680 about this before. You know, when when the system conspires 0:20:56.760 --> 0:21:01.560 to put innocent people in prisons Andrew and Anthony in 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:04.400