1 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:08,319 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newtsworld. In late December, the news 2 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: of Baby Yangliang, an exquisitely preserved dinosaur embryo, was reported 3 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 1: in the journal I Science, and it's an extraordinary story. 4 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:22,319 Speaker 1: The over raptorosaur dinosaur embryo had been acquired in two 5 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: thousand by Langlu, the director of a company called Yangliang Group, 6 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: who suspected it might contain egg fossils, but it then 7 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: ended up in storage, largely forgotten about until ten years later, 8 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: when museum staffed during the construction of Yangliang Stone Nature 9 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: History Museum sorted through the boxes and unearthed the fossils. 10 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: The museum staff identified several dinosaur eggs, but the embryo 11 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: hidden within one of them, which they named Baby Yangliang, 12 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: was so well preserved and showed a tucking position just 13 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: before hatching. I personally I always been fascinated by dinosaurs, 14 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: and I'm really excited by the Baby Yangliang discovery. I 15 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 1: wanted to have someone on the podcast who helped co 16 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:12,400 Speaker 1: author the study on Baby Yangliang and who was an 17 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 1: expert in his field, so I'm really pleased to welcome 18 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:20,479 Speaker 1: my guest, doctor Stephen Brusat, Chair of Paleontology and Evolution 19 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 1: in the School of Geosciences at the University of Edinburgh 20 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:39,400 Speaker 1: in Scotland. Steve, I want to thank you for joining 21 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: me to discuss this important discovery. I've been a fan 22 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: of yours ever since I read your book a few 23 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: years ago, The Rise and Fall of Dinosaurs, The New 24 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: History of Their Lost World. It's a fantastic book which 25 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: I highly recommend everyone. Thank you, mister speaker. It's very 26 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: nice to talk to dinosaur enthusiasts chatting here together. I 27 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: know you've been a dinosaur enthusiast and you've done a 28 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: lot of philanthropy around paleontology, and me and many others 29 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 1: in the field appreciate that. So I'm very excited to 30 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: talk dinosaurs with you, and thank you for the kind 31 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: words on the book. I do appreciate it. So tell 32 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,079 Speaker 1: me for a second, because I was a little surprised, delighted, 33 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: but surprised to see that you had also gotten involved 34 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: with Baby Yang Lang. How did you end up becoming 35 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: involved in studying the dinosauric I was really fortunate to 36 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: be part of this project. I was invited on by 37 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: my Chinese colleagues and ever since I was in undergrad 38 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 1: I've been working with Chinese colleagues. I did my first 39 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 1: international field work in China with my supervisor, a guy 40 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: named Pulsarino, who's a very famous dinosaur paleontologist. And I've 41 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: just really enjoyed working with people all over the world, 42 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:49,399 Speaker 1: but especially in China because there's so many important fossils 43 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: being found, and I've worked a lot on dinosaurs from 44 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: southern China. There's rocks in southern China that come from 45 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 1: the Cretaceous period. This was the last gasp of dinosaur 46 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: evolution before the story came down and wiped him out. 47 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: And a lot of the fossils down there are found 48 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: during construction work, when foundations for buildings are being laid 49 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: or roads are being laid, and so I just have 50 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: built a network of friends and colleagues there. And one 51 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: of my colleagues caught wind of this embryo. He was 52 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: very excited. He invited me to help him study it, 53 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 1: because these are the kind of dinosaurs that I've studied. 54 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: You know, I've noticed treationally that there are a surprising 55 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: number of places where something will have been collected ten, 56 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: twenty thirty, even a hundred years ago. But it never 57 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: quite good looked at or the new technology, let's just 58 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: look at it differently. And so there's a lot of 59 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: not just discovery in the field, but there's a lot 60 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: of discovery in the lab, absolutely in the lab, in museums. 61 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: And this is why we have museums really, I mean 62 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: we have museums so we can conserve things, whether it's fossils, 63 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:51,839 Speaker 1: whether it's archaeological artifacts, whether it's artwork. And a lot 64 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: of times in paleontology we collect things. We go out 65 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: in the field, we dig up fossils, we find fossils, 66 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: and we'll put them in muss will conserve them in museums, 67 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: but we can't study them right away, so sometimes they 68 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: do sit around for a while, and it does take 69 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: ten years, twenty years sometimes, and that's what happened in 70 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: this case. Thankfully, this fossil, as you say, this exquisite 71 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: baby dinosaur, I mean it's a baby dinosaur. I think 72 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,359 Speaker 1: we just have to step back and say, whoa like, 73 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: we have the fossil of a baby dinosaur. But this thing, luckily, 74 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: it was recognized by this company and it was purchased, 75 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: put in this museum and then kept safe until really 76 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: my colleague who's an expert on dinosaurs. Lidas Shingh is 77 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: his name. Until he was working with this museum, he 78 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: recognized the importance of it, and that's when the proper 79 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 1: studies started. So about seventy million years ago, an ostrich 80 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: like dinosaur was on the verge of hatching, but then 81 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: never got the chance, and we actually now have a 82 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 1: dinosaur embryo. And as I understand it, part of it 83 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: is that it actually is sort of almost identical to 84 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:59,599 Speaker 1: how a baby chicken would look at the same point, 85 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 1: we could you kind of walk us through the It's 86 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,479 Speaker 1: fascinating if you just saw a photograph of this and 87 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: you didn't know it was a fossil, and you were 88 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: just to ask somebody, what do you think this thing is? 89 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: It looks like an egg and then there's the bones inside, 90 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: and it really does look like a little baby chicken 91 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:19,279 Speaker 1: curled up in its egg. And that's because these dinosaurs, 92 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: called overraptors, they laid eggs, and the baby's hatch from eggs. 93 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: And we can now see from this fossil that the 94 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: little baby dinosaurs actually developed in their eggs very similar 95 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 1: to birds, which makes a lot of sense because these 96 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: Dinosaurs are very closely related to birds. They are the 97 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: ancestors of birds. But what we saw for the first 98 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 1: time in this fossil is this posture. This little baby 99 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 1: dinosaur is curled up in the egg. Its head is 100 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:48,039 Speaker 1: tucked underneath its arm or basically its wing, and its 101 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 1: neck is getting into position to break through the egg. 102 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: So it would have been hatching very soon after. It 103 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: was probably one or two days from hatching at most. 104 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: And this is exactly what birds do today. Baby birds 105 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: in an egg, it doesn't just haphazardly just like burst 106 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 1: out of the egg, but in a few days before 107 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: it hatches, there's this coordinated dance of movements and it 108 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: gets itself ready. And it's the same way that a 109 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: human baby, you know, has a position in the womb, 110 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: and if that position isn't perfectly right, you could have 111 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:19,919 Speaker 1: a breach, pregnancy or something like that, which can be 112 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: very damaging. Birds are similar. They get the embryo into 113 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: this perfect position so the neck is aligned with the 114 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: head and it can then just tap through the egg. 115 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: So we see that in this dinosaur. That means this 116 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: dinosaur laid eggs developed in their eggs really exactly like 117 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: birds do. Today, and for an animal seventy million years old, 118 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: that is just an astounding thing, and it brings this 119 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: dinosaur to life. This is a dinosaur baby, and there's 120 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,679 Speaker 1: just something that's so relatable about that. You give people 121 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,839 Speaker 1: a sense of the dinosaur itself. The baby measured about 122 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 1: eleven inches long, but it was curled up because the 123 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 1: egg actually was six point seven inches long, so it 124 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 1: had to be curled in order to fit insaw. Do 125 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: we have any sense was this but leathery egg and 126 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: the crocodile and lizard tradition or do we think it 127 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: was a hard egg more like chickens and ducks. This 128 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 1: one was hard shelled, and we can see because the 129 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: egg itself is fossilized around the embryo and it's mineralized. 130 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 1: You know, it's made of the same basic type of 131 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: calcium eggshell that birds have today. But what you bring 132 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: up is really interesting because animals that lay eggs today 133 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: some way hard shelled eggs, like birds. Others like turtles, 134 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: lay soft, leathery eggs. And it used to be thought 135 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: that all dinosaurs laid the hard shelled eggs because those 136 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: are the kinds that are normally preserved as fossils, But 137 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: there was a really provocative study published just within the 138 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: last couple of years that it has actually found fossil 139 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: evidence of soft, leathery eggs for dinosaurs. So it seems 140 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: like some dinosaurs laid eggs that were really soft, impliable 141 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: and you can stretch them around. Other ones had hard 142 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: shelled eggs, and it was the ones that were most 143 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: closely related to birds, like this new dinosaur, this overappter, 144 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: that had eggs that were most similar to birds, so 145 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: that had the hard shell with several layers of calcium 146 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: crystals in it. So I'm curious. This is kind of remarkable. 147 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: What was there about that particular area that enabled them 148 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: to preserve an egg with the embry only it was 149 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: an inundation in a flood or what was happening. We 150 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: don't know for sure because something happened seventy million years 151 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: ago to bury this egg in some mud. But what 152 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: we do know is that the egg was very close 153 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: to hatching. It would have hatched within a few days 154 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: because if the position, the head was just getting so 155 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: close to break through the egg, So it must have 156 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: been buried in mud right before it would have hatched. 157 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 1: And it looks like a lot of the rocks in 158 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: that area that preserved fossils, they're mud rocks, the rocks 159 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: that are made from hardened mud, and a lot of 160 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: that mud was formed in mud slides. Probably what happened, again, 161 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: we don't know for sure, but probably there was a 162 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: mud slide. It swept over this nest. It probably would 163 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: have been part of a nest of eggs, and it 164 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 1: covered it. But it wasn't so violent of a flood 165 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: that it broke the egg. And that's where it comes 166 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: down to. This is like a one in a billion thing. 167 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: You get the egg preserved and covered, but it didn't break. 168 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:14,439 Speaker 1: And so that's a lot of what paleontology is. It's 169 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: going out looking to see what you can find, and 170 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: every once in a while you get really lucky and 171 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 1: you find this object from prehistory that's millions of years 172 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 1: old and it tells a story of ancient times long past. Dude, 173 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: this particular embryo have short of an egg tooth to 174 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: break through. That's an excellent question, and it doesn't seem 175 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: to so a lot of birds today. You know, birds 176 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: don't have teeth like we have teeth. When birds evolved 177 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:43,679 Speaker 1: from dinosaurs, they evolved from like velociraptor type dinosaurs that 178 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 1: had lots of big, scary, sharp teeth. But then as 179 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: birds got smaller and they started to fly, they lost 180 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: those teeth. And no birds today have teeth. Oh, they 181 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: do have the jeans that can throw teeth if you 182 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 1: tweak those jeans. But some birds do have something that's 183 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: called an egg tooth, and it's not a real tooth 184 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: like our teeth. It's not made of enamel and stuff, 185 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: but it's a little projection of keratin, the same stuff 186 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: our fingernail is made from, that grows from the jaw 187 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 1: right before it hatches, and it uses that to break 188 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: through the egg. And we don't see that on this dinosaur. However, 189 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: that's a really delicate structure and it wouldn't surprise me 190 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:23,199 Speaker 1: if it was there and it just wasn't preserved so easily. 191 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 1: But I think one of the next steps is, you know, 192 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: we'd love to find embryos with that feature. That would 193 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: be yet another thing of modern birds that these dinosaurs 194 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 1: might have had. So, now that we have found an 195 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 1: actual embryo, is there any possibility of being able to 196 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: extract DNA parallel the Jurassic Park experience sadly or probably 197 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 1: not sadly really, because I wouldn't want a t rex 198 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: running around. But no, there just isn't. It was a 199 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: great storyline for Jurassic Park, for the book, for the movie, 200 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: is great science fiction, but DNA breaks down really quickly 201 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: once an animal dies. Oldest DNA that's ever been found 202 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 1: is a little over a million years old. It comes 203 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:06,319 Speaker 1: from a wooly mammoth, which is remarkable, but these were 204 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: mammoths that were basically like frozen in the perma frost. 205 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 1: And so to get a dinosaur that's like one hundred 206 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 1: million years old to have any DNA, Believe me, everybody 207 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: wants to find dinosaur DNA. Whoever finds it, if ever, 208 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: will become very famous. But nobody has ever found any, 209 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: and I think it's just not very likely. I always 210 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:45,199 Speaker 1: try to remind people that science is constantly evolving. Yeah, 211 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 1: when I was young, dinosaurs were supposed to be cold 212 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: blooded like lizards. You may remember the famous thing where 213 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: the t rex would have had a very limited ability 214 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: to do anything. And then along came professor at Yale 215 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: who said wait a second and actually took us back 216 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: to the original mid eighteen forties interpretation and said, these 217 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: are birds, they must have been warm blooded. And all 218 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: of a sudden, there's this great series of paintings where 219 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:18,679 Speaker 1: you see the absolute scientific state of the art of 220 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 1: about nineteen twenty by a wonderful painter named Knight, in 221 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 1: which the t rex behaves like a lizard or a 222 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: crocodile with limited oxygen capabilities. And then suddenly there's this 223 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: breakthrough and now you see the t rex standing upright 224 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: and running like crazy. And since then I think this 225 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 1: is new, but you can correct me. We now think 226 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: that they were very much like birds in having air 227 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: sacks all through their body, so that they actually had 228 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: a capacity for oxygen on a scale that no mammal has. 229 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: Can you explain that. I'm so glad you brought that up. 230 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: I just have to say, I mean, it's the most 231 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: amazing thing to tak dinosaurs at this level, like speaker 232 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,199 Speaker 1: of the house, I mean, this is incredible. So thanks 233 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: for a fun conversation. And you're absolutely right about science. 234 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:09,679 Speaker 1: We are always learning new things, and that's what makes science. 235 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 1: Science different from other disciplines human thought. We are always learning, 236 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: we're always observing, we're always testing, and a lot of 237 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: what we once thought was true about dinosaurs, we now 238 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: know that's no longer true. You look at these older books, 239 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: even books that I read as a kid, the books 240 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: we had in school in the eighties and the early nineties. 241 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: You know, a lot of these are very outdated, and 242 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: we now know that dinosaurs were much more like birds 243 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:36,319 Speaker 1: than reptiles. They were not overgrown lizards. They were not dimwitted, 244 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: they were not cold blooded. They were not just sitting 245 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,959 Speaker 1: around loitering around, waiting to go extinct. You know, that's 246 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,719 Speaker 1: not what dinosaurs were like. They were very birdlike, very intelligent. 247 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 1: We can study their brains using cat scanners, we can 248 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:52,439 Speaker 1: study how they grow, using forensic tools to study their bone, 249 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: and you bring up air sacks, and that's one of 250 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 1: these things we've learned really over the past few decades. 251 00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: But we can tell that dinosaurs, many of them, had 252 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 1: the same lungs that birds have today, and those are 253 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: very special lungs. They're not the type of lungs we have. 254 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: You know, we breathe in, we breathe out. You know, 255 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 1: our lungs are basically a lot of little bags that 256 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: inflate and deflate. But a bird lung is more like 257 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: a series of pipes or a series of straws, and 258 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: air can only go through it in one direction. It 259 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: seems like it shouldn't really work right because you have 260 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: to breathe in and breathe out. But the way that 261 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: it works in a bird is when a bird breathes in, 262 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: some of that air with oxygen goes across those straws immediately, 263 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: but some of that air is shunted off into these 264 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: little balloons called air sacks, and then those balloons deflate 265 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: when the bird breathes out, and that air goes across 266 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: the two. So when birds breathe in and when they 267 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: breathe out, they both pass air with oxygen across the 268 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: tubes of their lungs. We can tell dinosaurs have those 269 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: lungs because those air sacks left their marks on the 270 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: dinosaur bones, and so birds today can take in a 271 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: lot more oxygen than man mammals can. These dinosaurs, because 272 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 1: they had those same peculiar lungs, could have done the same. 273 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: And mister Speaker, let me tell you, and I talk 274 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: about this in the new Mammal book that'll be out 275 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: this summer. I think that's one of the key reasons 276 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 1: that no land mammals have gotten as big as the 277 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: biggest dinosaurs on land. I mean, whales are huge, of course, 278 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: they're the biggest things ever as far as animals, they're mammals, 279 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: but they live in the water. They don't have to 280 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: deal with gravity in the same way. But an elephant's 281 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: never gotten as big as like a brontosaurus. And I 282 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: think it's because the brontosaurus had those special lungs that 283 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: could take in so much more oxygen. Doesn't that also 284 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 1: mean they probably weighed less than they look like. Yes, 285 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 1: and that's another great point. A big brontosaurus or one 286 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: of these huge long act dinosaurs, I mean, they were 287 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: ethically titanically huge. They were really big. I mean some 288 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: of these things would have weighed fifty tons or more. 289 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: Some of them approached or even exceeded a Boeing seven 290 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: thirty seven aircraft in weight. I had the privilege of 291 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: seeing the Argentosaurus, which was actually in Philadelphia at the time. Yeah, 292 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: I mean, and that's all right. You stand by those 293 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: bones and you're like, how can an animal be this big? 294 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: They told me they thought it was like seventy tons. Yeah. 295 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 1: It's always a little bit difficult because we're extrapolating from 296 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: incomplete fossils. If we have the right bones, especially the 297 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: limb bones, there's pretty accurate ways to predict the weight 298 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: of an animal just based on the size of its limbs, 299 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 1: because the limbs are what hold it up against gravity. 300 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: And with some of these big dinosaurs fifty sixty tons, 301 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: they probably did weigh that much. But you would think, Okay, 302 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: how can an animal weigh that much? Could it even 303 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: move if it was that big? And yes, it could 304 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: because although it was heavy, its skeleton was really light 305 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: because those air sacks filled a lot of the bones, 306 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: so they kept these dinosaurs light and limber. They were 307 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: kind of like skyscrapers that were built from a very 308 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: lightweight but very strong type of steel, let's say. And 309 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: so that was another thing that would have allowed them 310 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: to get so big. Mammals can't do that. We have 311 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 1: a bunch of marrow inside of our bones. We don't 312 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: have air sacks that can make our bones lighter. That 313 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: would also have meant that something I mean, like the 314 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: famous t rex would probably have had an ability to 315 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 1: sustain running far longer than a mammal would. I mean, 316 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 1: we think of mammals as being able to do it 317 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 1: longer than say a lizard. But the multiple air sacks 318 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 1: and the fact that they could then generate energy out 319 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:23,959 Speaker 1: of oxygen would have made them really formidable. Absolutely, And 320 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 1: some mammals are very fast, you know, you look at 321 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,159 Speaker 1: a cheetah chasing gazelle or something. You know that is 322 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: a very fast animal. But dinosaurs were capable of, I think, 323 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 1: even greater feats of strength and endurance. And I think 324 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 1: we should think about birds in this way. I mean, 325 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: some birds fly at the very top of the Himalayas. 326 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: You know, that's basically the altitude of what we're at 327 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 1: when we're in an aircraft. But you know, we can't 328 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:49,120 Speaker 1: breathe that the aircraft has to be pressurized for us, 329 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 1: you know, we can't get enough oxygen. But these birds 330 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:54,400 Speaker 1: can fly at that altitude. That's incredible. And a lot 331 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: of dinosaurs probably could, you know, behave in those kind 332 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: of ways too. And not just circle back to what 333 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 1: you said a few minutes ago about how our ideas 334 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 1: have changed so much and that we now really do 335 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 1: think dinosaurs were not only much more bird light, but 336 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 1: just in general they were much more exciting, amazing animals. 337 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: You know, these were not dead ends of some primeval, 338 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:19,680 Speaker 1: prehistoric archaic world. These were animals that dominated the earth 339 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:21,959 Speaker 1: for one hundred and fifty million years, you know. They 340 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 1: were the ones that were on top before us, and 341 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: I think we need to see them more in that 342 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: light rather than all these you know, old primeval things 343 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 1: that went extinct. I was very fortunate one year I 344 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: was out with Jack Horner at the Museum of the 345 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: Rockies and he was showing me the cross section of 346 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: a series of t bones over time from very young 347 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: to mature, and how their bone was growing. And then 348 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 1: he brought out an Ostrich and did the same and 349 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,360 Speaker 1: you really can't tell the difference. I mean the parallels 350 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 1: between the two, which meant that things like t rex 351 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: actually grew very fast. It's one of these stunning factoids 352 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 1: that emerged recently in Jack Horner, who's a legend in 353 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: our field, who's just recently retired. And I've actually taken 354 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: to Jack's place as the Jurassic Park Jurassic World consultant now, 355 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: so I'm following in Jack's footsteps. But he's a legend. 356 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: And it was Jack's books, by the way, that I 357 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: read when I was a teenager that inspired me Jackson 358 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 1: many things. He discovered the first dinosaur nesting grounds in Montana, 359 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: and he of course has done so much to bring 360 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 1: dinosaurs to the public through Jurassic World, through his Jurassic Parking, 361 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: through his books. But one of my favorite studies of 362 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: Jackson's when he has studied the growth of t Rex, 363 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 1: and Jack and his colleagues as well as another team 364 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: that was led by one of Jack's former students, they 365 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: all came to this conclusion that, you know, t Rex 366 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 1: grew remarkably fast. T Rex was the size of a 367 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: US a wage seven or eight tons and had a 368 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 1: head the size of a bathtub. You know, I could 369 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: fit inside his jaws. And you know, how do you 370 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 1: get an animal that big? And people used to think, well, 371 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: it lived for hundreds of years and it grew a 372 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: little bit each year, just an iguana or something. But no, 373 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 1: we can cut open bones, we can count the growth 374 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: rings inside the bones. So bones have rings in them, 375 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: just like tree trunks. One ring laid down a year, 376 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 1: and nobody has ever found a t Rex with more 377 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:16,160 Speaker 1: than thirty growth rings. So t Rex, they were dead 378 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 1: by the time they were thirty. They grew from a 379 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 1: little hatchling that would have been in an egg about 380 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,400 Speaker 1: the size of like a coffee cup or something. That's 381 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: what t Rex hatched from. And it grew into something 382 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: the size of a bus in less than thirty years. 383 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: And that means that during its teenage years it went 384 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: through a growth spurt where it put on about five 385 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: pounds of weight every single day on average. That's astounding. 386 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 1: Just think about how much it would have had to eat, 387 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 1: you know, so it's constantly hunting because it's much like 388 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: a teenager. It's hungry all the time exactly. And you 389 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 1: know that's not a lizard, that's not a crocodile. That 390 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 1: is an active, energetic, dynamic, fast growing animal, probably a 391 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: warm blooded animal. That is the new image of dinosaur. 392 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 1: But it really raises an interesting question because you have 393 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: up until sort of two thirds away through the Triassic, 394 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 1: you don't see dinosaurs Tho's dominant figures. And then suddenly 395 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 1: something happens and boom they become the dominant figure. And 396 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: then that lasts through the Jurassic and the Cretaceous. What 397 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: do you think happened in that couple of probably a 398 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: couple of million years. It wasn't overnight, but what do 399 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: you think suddenly differentiated them or allowed them to suddenly 400 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 1: fill the space. You're absolutely right about it. It's an 401 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,119 Speaker 1: incredible story. Dinosaurs started small, they started humble, and it 402 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: took them a long time to become big and to 403 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: become dominant and to go to the top of the 404 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: food chain. You know, we think of t rex, we 405 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: think of Brontosaurus, we think of these enormous, majestic animals. 406 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: But for the first at least thirty million years of 407 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: their history, dinosaurs were not like that. Most dinosaurs were 408 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 1: the size of humans, maybe the size of horses, and 409 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: the biggest ones of all were maybe the size of 410 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: a draft. And then, as you say, something changed, and 411 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 1: those first dinosaurs that lived in the Triassic period, they 412 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 1: then changed into these Jurassic dinosaurs that were much bigger. 413 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: And there's some things that we do know, and there's 414 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: some things that we don't know. What we do know 415 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 1: is that during the Triassic Period, when these first humble, 416 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: small dinosaurs were living, this was the time of the 417 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: supercontinent Pangaea. All the land was gathered as one and 418 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: it was this desert continent, very difficult, challenging place, and 419 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: it was actually a lot of crocodiles and their early 420 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: relatives that ruled that world. So they were at the 421 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: top of the food chain. They were more diverse than dinosaurs. 422 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: They were kind of keeping dinosaurs in their place. You know. 423 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: The dinosaurs were like the B list characters and these 424 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:46,400 Speaker 1: crocs were the star actors. And then we know that changed, 425 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 1: and we know that changed after there was an extinction, 426 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 1: because about two hundred million years ago, the Triassic Period ends, 427 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 1: the Jurassic Period begins, and that changeover in geological time 428 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: is marked by the breakup of the Soup continent. Pangaea 429 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: split apart, and so North America split from Europe, South 430 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: America split from Africa, and that's where the Atlantic Ocean 431 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 1: is today. But before the water came in and filled 432 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 1: that gap, before then the earth just bled lava. It 433 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:19,640 Speaker 1: was an era six hundred thousand years of these megavolcanic eruptions, 434 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: and that led to a huge warming spike, big global warming, 435 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: big climate change. It led to an extinction that killed 436 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:27,680 Speaker 1: a lot of the crocs, It killed a lot of 437 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 1: the other things, but the dinosaurs survived. They were the 438 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 1: winners of that extinction. We know that, but we don't 439 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: know why the dinosaurs survived, and to me, that's the 440 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: biggest mystery of dinosaurs. And I wish I could tell you, 441 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 1: we would make the story so much better, But I 442 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 1: don't know the answer, and I think this is something 443 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 1: that somebody in the next generation of paleontologists is going 444 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 1: to have to figure out. I mean, we're the dinosaurs smarter? 445 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 1: Did they grow faster? Were they warm blooded? Did they 446 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 1: have feathers? Were they just lucky that their crop competitors died? 447 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: I don't know. But it's big mysteries like this that 448 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: make paleontology excite, and it means there's still so many 449 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 1: mysteries that we have to solve. The science is nowhere 450 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: near finished. Here. It seems to me that once they've 451 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: established dominance, sometime early in the Jurassic, you begin to 452 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:33,679 Speaker 1: get the gradual splitting away of birds, and the birds 453 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: begin to flourish and develop on their own right there 454 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: with the dinosaurs, and both of them are out there 455 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: hunting mammals, and mammals are actually shockingly small. They were. 456 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 1: You're right, the first mammals are small. Our oldest ancestors 457 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 1: go back to the same time of the first dinosaurs 458 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,400 Speaker 1: in the Triassic period on Pangaea. The dinosaurs, of course 459 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: their destiny. They took over the world, they grew to 460 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: huge sizes, but mammals stayed in the shadows. And during 461 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 1: the entire one hundred and fifty million years or so 462 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,160 Speaker 1: that the mammals live with dinosaurs, no mammal was ever 463 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,679 Speaker 1: bigger than like a raccoon, and so that's incredible. Then 464 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 1: the dinosaurs died with the asteroid, you know, except for birds, 465 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: and within a few hundred thousand years you have mammals 466 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: that are starting to approach, you know, the size of 467 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: a small cattle and stuff, and then mammals just take off. 468 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: And just to circle back, you're right about birds to 469 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 1: you know, birds evolved from other dinosaurs in the Jurassic 470 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 1: and birds were part of that diversification of dinosaurs after 471 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 1: that extinction where all those crocodiles died. Birds go all 472 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: the way back in time to that. And so it's 473 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 1: an incredible story to think about this world. It strikes 474 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 1: me that it's more accurate to think of the birds 475 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,680 Speaker 1: as one of a series of branches of dinosaurs rather 476 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 1: than as a sudden, dramatic branching away. So in a 477 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: very real sense, if you had a larger picture of dinosaurs, 478 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 1: you'd actually have birds within that larger picture, next to 479 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,040 Speaker 1: three or four other types that it also brand And 480 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: you know what, mister speaker, You're gonna have to explain 481 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 1: this to my students. It's a hard concept, right, you know, 482 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: we say birds are dinosaurs, and I think you nailed 483 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 1: the way to think about it. You know, birds are 484 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: just another branch on the family tree of dinosaurs, and 485 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 1: sitting next to them on the family tree are things 486 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: like velociraptors and things like this overraptor whose egg we 487 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: you know, just described. And really the best way I 488 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,679 Speaker 1: think to think about birds is that they are a 489 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 1: type of dinosaur. They are a type of dinosaur that 490 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: got small, that evolved wings, that developed the ability to fly, 491 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 1: in the same way that a bat is a type 492 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: of mammal that got small, evolved wings, developed the ability 493 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,959 Speaker 1: to fly. That's what we're talking about here. Birds as 494 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,360 Speaker 1: part of the dinosaur family tree, part of the dinosaur 495 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 1: family album. They're as much a dinosaur as a brontosaurus, 496 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 1: as a t rex as a triceratops. But they happen 497 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 1: to be the only dinosaurs that survived that great extinction 498 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,920 Speaker 1: when the asteroid hit and the only dinosaurs to live 499 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: on and maybe you could imagine a weird parallel world 500 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 1: where all mammals died except for bats. And that's kind 501 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 1: of what we're dealing with. The other thing I have 502 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: to ask you for a second is because again it's 503 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: one of those things that just fascinates me. I think 504 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: it's in the Late Permian, in the early Trashic you 505 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: have the mammal like reptiles which actually aren't mammal like. 506 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: They're not the forerunner of mammals. If we rewind, you know, 507 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 1: the tape of life here and we're talking about dinosaurs, 508 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: and the first dinosaur is about two hundred and thirty 509 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 1: million years old. The immediate ancestors of dinosaurs are about 510 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty million years old. I go even 511 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: farther back, like three hundred million years old. You have 512 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,199 Speaker 1: this time period called the Permian. This is when the 513 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,680 Speaker 1: super continent of Pangaea came together, and this is when 514 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: you had all kinds of archaic reptiles and early mammal 515 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,680 Speaker 1: relatives that were living on that super continent. And it 516 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,479 Speaker 1: was some of these mammal like reptiles they were not 517 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 1: actually reptiles. They were the four runners of mammals, but 518 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: very distant, like cousins of mammals. But they ruled that world. 519 00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: And you had ones with saber teeth who had ones 520 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: with big domes on their heads. They had headbut each other. 521 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: You had enormous ones with pot bellies at eight plants. 522 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: They ruled that world and then there was an extinction 523 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,639 Speaker 1: that wiped them out. And it was that extinction that 524 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: almost killed the mammal line and almost snipped the mammal 525 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 1: line long before mammals even had a chance. And it 526 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: was that extinction that elevated the dinosaurs gave them their chance. 527 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: I'm fascinating cause I didn't realize this, but you were 528 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 1: the resident paleontologist for the BBC series on Walking with 529 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: Dinosaurs and a consultant on the movie Walking with Dinosaurs 530 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 1: three D. I mean, how did it feel being a 531 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: consultant on those kinds of productions. I've been really lucky 532 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: to do a lot of fun things in this job 533 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: as a paleontalente. I mean, first of all, I get 534 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 1: to dig up dinosaurs for a living. It's what every 535 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: kid wants to do. But not only did I get 536 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: to do that I get to do things like write 537 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: these books and you know, give lectures and travel around 538 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 1: to work with interesting people. And one of the things 539 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 1: that I love most is consulting on television and on films, 540 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: and so I consulted on the Walking with Dinosaurs film 541 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: that came out in twenty thirteen. This was a big 542 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: blockbuster film with these very realistic cgi dinosaurs living in 543 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: Alaska during the Late Cretaceous, and that was a lot 544 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: of fun. I learned a lot doing it. I learned 545 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: a bit about the filmmaking process. And then now I 546 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 1: work with the Jurassic World series, so I'm the paleontology 547 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: consultant for the film, and there'll be another one. You know, 548 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: as some of you may have seen. The trailer recently 549 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: came out so that the next Jurassic World will be 550 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: out this June. There's going to be a lot of 551 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: new dinosaurs. We are finally going to see feathered dinosaurs 552 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 1: in this installment. This is something the director, Colin Trevor, 553 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 1: You've promised me the first time. He asked me if 554 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: I wanted to consult with them, and I said, yeah, 555 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 1: i'd love too. What do you think about feathers? He said, 556 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 1: we're going to put feathers on some of those dinosaurs, 557 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 1: and I said, I'm on board. So that was really 558 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: fun and kind of surreal just working with some pretty 559 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: well known Hollywood people and just answering their questions, telling 560 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 1: them about dinosaurs, helping them get their facts straight for 561 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: when they're designing these movie characters. So you know, these 562 00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 1: guys they're up on their dinosaurs. They know these or 563 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: they want to know about these dinosaurs. They want all 564 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 1: the information so they can build the best movie monsters. Really, 565 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: and it was also surreal to get to visit the set, 566 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: you know, to have not long but you know, a 567 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: little meeting with Chris Pratt. That was fun, and brace 568 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: Dallas Howard Omar see some of the actors. You know, 569 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: that's just crazy when you're a scientist who's mostly in 570 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: the lab and mostly digging up bones to meet these 571 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 1: kind of actors and just make that connection. So I'll 572 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: always cherish that you've mentioned the point about the Bosom 573 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 1: new dinosaurs. I was really surprised that we've been averaging 574 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: since two thousand and three, forty five new species a year. 575 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 1: I mean, that is an astonishing productivity. It is for 576 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: two decades now there have been roughly, you know, fifty 577 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: dinosaurs a year, roughly a new dinosaur each week, and 578 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 1: that's a totally new dinosaur. That's like not a new 579 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 1: bone or a new skeleton, that's a new species, a 580 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 1: new type of dinosaur we never knew existed. And it's stunning. 581 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: And that means that, you know, within the last two 582 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 1: decades and really this is the time I've studied dinosaurs. 583 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 1: I just started my undergraduate you know, in two thousand 584 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 1: and two, two thousand and three, so just during the 585 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: time I've been in the field, you know, this is 586 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 1: something like nine hundred to one thousand new dinosaur species 587 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: that have been found, and it's continuing. This pace continues, 588 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: and it really is that the science of paleontology has 589 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 1: become global. It used to be a science that was 590 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 1: a pretty narrow discipline, and you know, it was mostly 591 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: people in you know, the posher universities, let's face it, 592 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: in the US, Canada, Great Britain, parts of Europe, you know, 593 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 1: who were the paleontologists. There were a few paleontologists studying 594 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 1: dinosaurs in different countries around the world, but over the 595 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: last two decades, the number of young people going into 596 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: the field has just skyrocketed. It's not just the little 597 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 1: boys anymore. You know. The vast majority of my students 598 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: are young women. And it's not just people like me 599 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: growing up in America, you know, or my students here 600 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: now in Britain, but it's people in China, Argentina, Brazil, Mongolia, 601 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 1: South Africa, people all around the world, and a lot 602 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: of them watched Jurassic Park and were inspired by that 603 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 1: film series. So we owe a huge debt of gratitude 604 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: to Jurassic Park. So you're now working on the Rise 605 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 1: and Reign of the Mammals, which you'll be out in June. 606 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 1: So our listeners have a chance now to go and 607 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: get the Rise and follow the Dinosaurs, a new History 608 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: of a Lost World which they should read first to 609 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 1: set the stage for then buying in June the Rise 610 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 1: and Reign of the Mammals, which I am looking forward to. 611 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: And again, thank you. You know you've been not only 612 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: a fan of dinosaurs, but you've been a great friend 613 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: of paleontologist and paleontology and museums for many years, and 614 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: you know we do appreciate it. We know what you've 615 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 1: got to help us. Steve. Thank you. I look forward 616 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 1: to having you back. Thank you to my guest doctor 617 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: Steve Brucette. You can read more about the discovery of 618 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: baby Yangliang on our show page at newsworld dot com. 619 00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 1: News World is produced by yinglish Street sixty and I 620 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 1: hired me. Our executive producer is Garnsey Sloan, our producer 621 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: is Rebecca Howe, and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The 622 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,960 Speaker 1: artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special 623 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 1: thanks to the team at Gingwidge three sixty. If you've 624 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 1: been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast 625 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 1: and both rate us with five stars and give us 626 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 1: a review so others can learn what it's all about. 627 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of newts World can sign up for 628 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:31,280 Speaker 1: my three free weekly columns at Gingwich three sixty dot 629 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is news World.